The breeze-up sales are just around the corner and in this latest edition of the TDN's Conversations podcast, Brian Sheerin catches up with Oliver St Lawrence, Amy Marnane and Eddie O'Leary to discuss their outlook on the market for 2025.
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00:00welcome along to the tdn podcast where we're looking at towards the breeze up sales we've
00:10been joined by top source of talent oliver st lawrence and we've got amy mernand from the
00:15bunch of bullets and eddie o'leary of lynn lodge stud oliver if i could just start with you and
00:21look ahead towards the breeze up sales and just get some insights into how you have sourced some
00:25top-notch talent like the likes of elder elder of a moor i know what i i don't tend to any longer
00:32go and go to the breeze up um boys and fruit brand and see the year link to see the two-year-olds i
00:38don't know whether that's right or wrong i found i used to virtually make my mind up when i came and
00:44saw them at the home farm and consequently really struggled to to change my mind about them when i
00:53saw them later um so i don't bother doing that but i have been through the catalogs um i haven't
00:59picked out any lists but i've been through and done some updating and um look through that side of life
01:06and i really wait until i've seen the the horses after they breeze um i do do a little looking around
01:14beforehand up at the sales but not that much i know eddie will have a problem with this but i i wait for
01:20the having seen the breeze made my notes the breeze get the times out um and then formulate a list
01:27to go around and look at okay so oliver is not the man that amy marnam would like to sell a horse
01:33because we know that con and amy you're some of the best of the business with uh with your sales
01:39pitches but i mean when you've got a track record like sans amali so many good horses down through the
01:44years i mean just if you were to look ahead towards this year amy what kind of horse have you got
01:49going to the sales um we think that we have a very nice bunch this year um we're well down on
01:56numbers and we kind of went to the yearling sales and thought we're going to try and up the quality
02:01and down the numbers um because last year we had we have eight horses at the craven and 15 in
02:09doncaster and it just didn't work we sold 50 at each sale so we've down the numbers tried to up the
02:16quality um and we have we've got two two darn hots going to the craven um a havana gray a nice
02:25sans of manny colt and we think a very special lucky vega philly um and then we've got a seriously
02:32good we think memas going to doncaster but we always try and get those horses that look like
02:38they're going to be earlier types for to to have them ready for those earlier sales eddie i know
02:44you think that you know the top horses they can they've never been able to make more but that
02:49market i think is you know the clearance rate was a bit tricky last year at times i say and i say it
02:56could be tricky again this year um like like even even going back five six years ago um the top 50
03:02so well then it's top 25 now it's probably the top 10 if even that and the rest then are are in the
03:09lap of the gods but you get more and more but if you for if you hit all the metrics you'll get more
03:14and more for those top horses but unfortunately they have to look after a lot of other horses
03:18what were your early thoughts looking at the at the catalogs we've got donnie we've got
03:23uh the craven and arcana those three catalogs have been published what were your early thoughts eddie
03:28i would think that the craven seems to be a very very strong sale um with an off that horse to
03:34qualify for soudian to buy in it um a dirt that horse in it and the arcana the arcana sale looks
03:40kind of a wow it always is though like and and um donnie looks a good a typical hardback in
03:45doncaster sale oliver do you do you think that the variety is still there one one observation i made
03:52and rightly or wrongly i just sometimes i do think there's a it's it's gone quite fashionable
03:58the breeze up game maybe amy and eddie might be able to comment on that better but you know
04:03sire power is is is still there and maybe it's it's still fashion drives a lot of things even in
04:10a breeze up sale where it's supposed to be about a breeze up fashion will drive the top lots
04:15undoubtedly um yeah i mean going through the catalogs there's an awful lot by the big stallions
04:22um awful lot of individuals by the big stallions in that um
04:28and i think that that goes even at the yearling sales i mean it's the whole way through the market
04:32you know everyone seems to be focused on the the top stallions at the moment
04:36um booking nominations this year people have wanted to stick to a very narrow band of
04:42of quality stallions um i don't think it's necessarily good for the breed but it is the
04:46way the market's going at the moment
04:48i suppose it's hard it's hard to pick on maymas in particular but 22 maymas is in doncaster that's
04:54just maybe it's it speaks to how popular he has become but eddie would you have any thoughts on
04:59that um me mess like listen listen he's obviously a terrific sire um but when you're going when you're
05:06going to me mass he has to clock like he has to clock because like their royal ass got two rolls
05:11and they should clock so like if you've a me mass that just doesn't work out it's going to be hard
05:16to sell him when there's 20 21 other ones there as well oliver i i think i remember seeing you on the
05:22from the catalogue or the promotional pamphlet that golfs sent out for their new sale i mean
05:29the landscape has slightly changed it's going to be the first time we've got two sales in ireland i
05:34mean you as a buyer i mean how do you think that would go go down this year if i'm honest i don't
05:40really know but there's there's always a case for some of those late maturing horses and horses that
05:46missed sales for whatever reasons um i think it will go depending on on what what orders people
05:53have left um that is you know if the market ends up being very thin it will go very badly but if the
05:59market's strong there'll be people who've been frozen out or have had a mess up with how with
06:05something they purchased and there'll be people there for it
06:08eddie um well i'm hoping that that with what happened in the year in sales last year
06:17after after after book one that a lot of traders didn't didn't get their yearning orders filled
06:22now it's very hard to turn into a breeze of order but i hope that helps the middle market
06:26somewhat in the breeze this year because it's very important we can sell the horses below the top
06:3110 percent because like i know a lot of horses are missed like let me you could flick an ear
06:37at the furland pole and that cost and that cost you 0.5 a second instead of in the top 10 you're
06:4297th but he's still but he's still a smart horse and we need people to see beyond that and try and buy
06:48those horses too yeah i mean the vandites of this world they're they're brilliant the elder alderovs i
06:55mean we need those flag those flagship horses uh but i would venture that those diamonds
07:01in the rough they're just as important now as as ever before you know you got five grand in the
07:06court for san shoda that ended up running the breeders cup for dave lochnan there was a couple
07:11of others yeah i mean this could be the year maybe it's maybe i'm i'm wishful thinking but this could
07:17be the year that there could be a lot of value oliver in the middle market yeah i mean there could be
07:23a lot of value in the middle market um you know there are plenty of horses out there i see donkster
07:28i think have brought their sale back by about 30 lots uh the craven's about the same and um
07:35was it one of them's come back about 10 lots and but donnie's the biggest one but there should be
07:40a good middle market i think there are plenty of people out there um it's very hard finding
07:46homegrown people wanting to buy them in england there aren't too many homegrown people they're
07:50mostly overseas overseas investors nowadays buying um yeah and going back to eddie's point about the
07:58you know flick of the ear and they go a different time it is you know i i wouldn't say the whole of
08:02my well i definitely wouldn't say the whole of my attitude is about time but yeah you're expecting a
08:09name ass to go do a decent time um elder older of i think was 140th or something but you just
08:15wouldn't have expected him to do a good time um i think you've got to match match the whole thing up
08:20and um you know it is ground dependent it's so many so many pieces of the jigsaw i'm going to put
08:30eddie and amy on the spot this might be a difficult question but eddie what's the best horse that you
08:36say you sold or maybe not you felt in the funnest time turned out to be a great horse but
08:42he was sold cheaply it's a difficult question amy i'd say no no no i i'd name i'd name clue
08:48listen listen we saw a bunch of group of winners in the breeze ups but um the two horses that hit that
08:53is there's a horse called valderromo that just about made a deserve of 50 grand he won the he won
08:59the the autumn stakes and for richard fahey and they won 1.5 million to go to hong kong
09:03and he just about made a deserve 50 grand we'd have a very smart horse called down one triumphant
09:09who just a little bit idle and i and i and he'd have made nothing but i told nick bradley this
09:15isn't a bad horse i promise you this isn't a bad horse 40 grand he took a chance and he won a group
09:19one and you know off the top of my head i don't think sanzamaly was was it was a huge price eater
09:24amy was he no sanzamaly was bought for 20 and mac coleman bought him at the i think it was the last
09:31uh ascot um that's yeah that's the ascot breeze for constantly he had a very nice penis
09:38that was the horse
09:40that was him i think i think um they gave 50 or 55 for him um and then we've had the likes of
09:54american sonia cost 80 um she was a very good filly for mark dobbin recently even in the last
10:02five years i'd say the game has changed an awful lot with regards preparing a horse eddie what would
10:10you say if they have to be sharper and and more ready given how professional the game has become
10:15they have to be a little bit sharper and more ready for it um but it's probably not a bad thing
10:21because like like like in the reason probably the last five years it's got a bit more snappy and
10:27professional and unless you unless just unless you lay up you're you're gone so like you have to
10:32produce the horses they have to have to mentally very very sound and fat and and look fat but like
10:39if you didn't if you're not going to do that you won't last now the only thing i would say is
10:45how how can we stop a little bugbear in that the live times that everyone is there at the sale
10:52watching the breeze and they all have the phone on the live times everyone has right the people
10:58sitting in the cars doncastle sitting there and they're not even looking at the breeze
11:01the horse goes by the way oh yeah he's fast i mark him they actually hadn't even seen the breeze
11:07i would say if you've got to prove some little bit i would have to give everyone give everyone
11:13access to times after the breeze but not during the breeze because i think people miss looking at
11:18style look at this look at the quality of yours coming up you just miss that if you're just waiting
11:23for the time yeah and i certainly i i mark them as they're going along going by me no access to the
11:30times uh what they're doing i try and yeah i do try and take note of the other a few jockeys i
11:36recognize as well as to because they can make a big difference and when it comes times come out i do
11:42like to see a horse finishing well i hate those ones that do a really fast first furlong and i've
11:47fallen in a hole they can't even do two furlongs you know that's interesting you mentioned the
11:53jockeys out of her i mean you know we we hear of some some agents would even would have their own
11:59kind of handicapping system for for designers but would you even rate your own rate different
12:04jockeys in the breeze i'd love to say i was that clever to have rated the jockeys but i definitely
12:09i definitely upgrade them for a number of a number of jockeys okay and yes i do follow the consignors
12:15there are certain consignors that consistently fire their horses very fast and therefore i'm a bit more
12:21wary of the time of the horse that the horse does amy you'd have strung towards in the times wouldn't
12:27you yeah well they our horses only do it when it matters but you know like so many um
12:36like it's all on ground like the ground like you let's say the craven you breathe 180 horses and
12:44the ground is soft and like the first 50 horses that go up will have nice ground and then the 50 to the
12:50100 will have okay ground and then by the time the 180th horse goes up you know the wind can change
12:57in new markets there's so many different factors that can change what time a horse does you know
13:03the jockeys are getting tired you know some of some jockeys could be riding 20 horses you know they
13:07they can't have the same energy on the first horse as they do on the 20th um but look the there's two
13:15there's more than against timing and and all of that and i know that there are probably great tools
13:22in aging to pick out a horse that you like or that you don't like there's so many different ways and
13:27you know different strokes for different folks you know different people find horses different ways
13:32um but ours just we don't we don't drill ours to do times um and we never will just on last year
13:41the craven breeze upsell i can remember with hailstones there was sleet and i think con could
13:47have had a horse that had to go up twice uh was it a blue point filly blue point filly um she the
13:54storm came while the filly was had just jumped off and the camera guys had turned off the camera so it
14:01wasn't recorded and i think eddie i think you were the person that rang con and probably got some
14:06colorful language at the end of the phone so we put her back oh yeah i thought i saw the cam man
14:12shielding from the shielding from the rain behind the camera and i said that's not that's not video
14:16so we sent get a big warm rug for her and we threw the rug on her and tried to dry her off and
14:22she went up again the second time and did it just as good the second time so
14:26look if they can't if they can't gallop four or five furlongs in a day they're not they're not
14:32much good to you so you know she um off she went again and she she sold well and i'd say she's going
14:39to be a good filly this year so fingers crossed i can remember talking to con about that afterwards
14:44and typical con he goes she was even quicker the second time so the man that hates timing yeah exactly
14:52uh so that kind of brings me on to eddie i'd say that's one of the things you would change about
14:58the game we spoke before we came on here and you know you felt quite strongly like you'd like to see
15:04the art of standing out there and watching that like if that was the one thing you'd change about
15:09the game would that be the life timing or just the life timing because i believe if the life timing
15:14wasn't there they would look at every horse past passing by and look for the quality of stride of
15:20the horse and oh i like his breeze give him a tick rather than waiting to see that he hit that time
15:24oh he's fast i'll watch i look at him that's all just and get like like have all the time you want
15:29after the actual breeze no problem but i think but i do believe like his crimes and at least when
15:35there's four or five different clocks it is a small bit of a help like are we are we are we
15:40advocating for for official timing no because if we ever have that like the game is over like even
15:45america last week like showed that that clears 50 percent if you didn't break 10 seconds you weren't
15:51even seen like thon had a long time ago he had two horses um in the old doncaster and the two or one
16:02of them was in new market and they breezed didn't do any times and times weren't even that fashionable
16:09but that's how slow they came up couldn't sell either of them um and between the two of them
16:16brought them home raced them ourselves the two of them had won a group one each there's three
16:22group ones for colson england and um amadeus wolf and palace episode they had won the middle park and
16:29the race and post trophy by by the 22nd of october oliver if you had a magic wand what is it that
16:35you'd be changing about the whole breeze up game i don't know i don't know the answer to that um
16:41i'd love it to be all on a consistent surface and things um but that's i'd hate it all to be on
16:48the well weather so you know we're kind of stuck where we are um i mean i totally get eddie's point
16:57you need to you need to see the see the horse breeze and make your own mind up and then do the times
17:02that's what i try and do bar that particular rainstorm at the craven last year i've always
17:08always stood outside and and listen to that wind too um they go by you that's a crucial point that
17:15those guys sitting in the car in the cars don't hear at all amy do you have any thoughts probably
17:21try and bring in something to get the middle and lower markets back up um be it a bonus or some kind
17:29of race series or something to try and get the like there's no getting away from it full sales but not
17:36not so much the boat sales but the yearling sales the breeze up sales the last couple of years the
17:42middle and lower markets they're just on the floor you know you bring a horse there breezes
17:47mid-division nobody really on it um there's no chance of you getting 30 or 40 grand for a horse
17:54it's very difficult to get it um whereas before you would have brought those horses over
17:59they would have breathed okay and there would have been syndicates or punters or english trainers
18:06or whatever there um to pick up the pieces but they're just not there anymore and if we could
18:12try and get something put into place to try and help boost the the middle and lower market i think it
18:18would make a huge difference on clearance rates and you know it would help people like the costs are
18:24gone so high the english prize money for for racing is pathetic um and there's no real incentive for
18:33people you know they're running around there for three grand to win a handicap i know that they're the
18:38lower grade horses but you know you to try and you know by the time you get your three grand it doesn't
18:47even pay your your um your training fee fee you know so if you if we can try and boost boost the
18:55middle and lower markets um the the top market in all sectors as far as i can see is booming but the
19:03middle and the lower is is struggling and if we could try to get something some kind of incentive in
19:08place to get try and get people back in i think it would make a huge difference okay well i think
19:15we've just over three weeks of the wagons roll out all i can do is wish you all luck with selling
19:21some more jets and oliver wishing you a look in in finding the next ones
19:29you
19:30you