"Il sistema basato sulle regole del dopoguerra è oggetto di negoziazione"—presidente dell’Eurogruppo

euronews (in Italiano)

15/05/2025

"Il sistema basato sulle regole del dopoguerra è oggetto di negoziazione"—presidente dell’Eurogruppo

Il ministro delle Finanze irlandese e presidente dell’Eurogruppo, Paschal Donohoe, ritiene che le istituzioni nate dopo la Seconda guerra mondiale siano messe alla prova dagli Stati Uniti.

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00:00Welcome to the Europe Conversation, my guest this week is Pascal Donoghue, Finance Minister

00:12of Ireland and President of the Eurogroup of Eurozone Finance Ministers. He says his

00:17country and several others are against the idea of a digital tax on the tech sector in

00:22response to Donald Trump's widespread tariffs, despite the fact that this is a very popular

00:27move in other countries like France. Pascal Donoghue, President of the Eurogroup and Finance

00:33Minister of Ireland, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.

00:37Shona, thank you for having me on.

00:39Well, look, let's start with the EU-US trade negotiations. We know that the EU has for some

00:45time now being offered a zero for zero tariff rate, but the US is not satisfied with that.

00:51It wants much greater access to the EU's markets when it comes to agriculture and other areas.

00:55And a lot of people would say that they'd like to see huge deregulation when it comes

00:59to the tech sector, the DSA, the DMA. Can you say that the EU is not for that, not for lowering

01:06standards for the sake of a deal?

01:09So we're not for lowering standards for the sake of that. And we do have to have a debate

01:15and an assessment within the European Union regarding our competitiveness and the degree

01:20to which decisions that we have taken may have contributed to our competitiveness declining

01:26with an impact on our growth, the impact on the number of jobs we may create in the future.

01:31So through that prism, it is important that we assess the regulations that we have and whether

01:37they are proportionate. But while I am convinced that an agreement between the EU and US is in the

01:45best interests of both, I certainly would take great care for a degree of deregulation being

01:53part of such an agreement.

01:54So when you say competitiveness, then what could it look like without lowering standards, without

02:00reducing what's in the DSA and the DMA? What could it potentially look like in theory?

02:06So I think there's a few strands for what it could look like. It could look like the efforts

02:10that we have in relation to the exchange of goods and the tariff levels for that. And

02:17what the EU have outlined as zero for zero is a very ambitious, but I believe important

02:22recognition of the value of trade and how it could be driven further. It could also look

02:28like commitments that we would have to buy more from each other in particular areas. And

02:33it could also look at what we could do in terms of the mutual recognition of the standards that

02:39each other have. And while that is easily a better understood with regard to goods, it

02:45could play a role with regard to services. This is a relationship, as you know, that's

02:50worth billions of euros every single day. And any change at all, no matter how small that

02:56eases with the flow of that exchange of goods and services on a daily basis, on an annual basis

03:02could be worth a big improvement to both of us.

03:04We know that when the EU announced a couple of weeks ago its potential tariffs in the event

03:10that there's no negotiation led to, that digital services wasn't on that yet, but it potentially

03:15is on the table. Do you think that the reason why that's not there is because it's really

03:20a controversial part of the negotiations between the two sides?

03:24So I believe it is understood as a move that if it were to be applied, could have larger

03:31spillover effects. It could, at that point, become difficult to look at what would be

03:36paths for further de-escalation. And it could make a trade relationship, which is obviously

03:44facing a very big challenge at the moment, face an even bigger one.

03:49Ireland and I have longstanding concerns regarding the role and use of digital services taxes.

03:55And my sense is that in the debate that is now taking place at the moment, it is understood

04:01as an option, but it's also understood as an option that could have very significant consequences.

04:07Indeed, but countries like Germany and France, particularly France, would push for something like that.

04:12And I think it's inevitable in a negotiation like this is that it's taking place that different

04:19members of the European Union will have different views. That is, after all, I believe our strength.

04:25And what we will do is listen to each other and find a balanced outcome regarding options that we may

04:31need to take now and other options that we might need to consider in the future. But I think it is fair to say

04:36that there are a group of countries within the European Union that would have significant concerns

04:42regarding the use of DSTs and the spillover effects that it could have on the trade negotiations

04:48and the health of the economic flows between the EU and US.

04:52We note that the EU is also saying that regardless of what is the outcome of the next negotiations,

04:57it needs to seek stronger association with other markets, whether it's Canada and so on.

05:02But do you see there might be a renewal of the EU-China relationship as part of this?

05:07We have acknowledged that China can be a partner in many areas, but we've also acknowledged that

05:15in other areas they do pose challenges for the European Union. And I think that continues to be

05:21the right balance. It is absolutely inevitable as we look at the unfortunate trade tension that is

05:28taking place between the US and the European Union. The European Union will look at other ways in

05:34which it can generate and deepen trade. We'll do that twofold. Firstly, through our own single markets

05:40and our trade with each other. And secondly, looking elsewhere in the world and looking at deeper trading

05:46relationships that we can have there. I think it's important, however, to be realistic, to say that

05:52new trading agreements with other parts of the world, at least in the short term,

05:56are incomparable to what we might be able to get out of the single markets.

06:00On the broader issue around trade with the EU and other countries trying to dash to

06:06not quite make up, but in some ways, get stronger trade links across the world. Do you think that

06:10there's a fear that the issues around global warming, human rights and other elements that used to be

06:16part of the priorities of a trade deal, that they will just be eliminated, you know, in the demand

06:22for making up for what we're losing out at the moment?

06:24That risk is definitely there. And it is part of how the EU needs to be agile in responding back to

06:34a world that has changed so much. But we do have to stand by particular values and ways of engaging with

06:42the world that are important to us. I think it is likely in trade negotiations that will happen elsewhere

06:48that the reference that those particular issues would have got will, I fear, go down. But in what

06:55we need to do here in the EU, I certainly want to still ensure they have a high value. And I believe we

07:02can do that. And I believe we should do that.

07:04So just moving on to defence, which obviously is the most important issue almost at the moment.

07:10You very much supported common borrowing when it came to COVID, because obviously you saw the

07:15impact it was having across Europe. Do you support the same for this existential crisis? Do you support

07:20common borrowing for defence?

07:22I think in the time ahead, the most likely way in which further spending on defence will happen

07:31will be both at a national level in terms of the use of own national resources. And then secondly,

07:37in the new framework that the EU have brought forward, where we would look at the use of the

07:42national escape clause where needed. And we would also look at new forms of lending to each other

07:48to help with new forms of spending.

07:52So where's the trade off? Because the defence spending has to go way up. And does that mean

07:57you take it out of cap? Or where does it come from? Cohesion funding?

08:01So I think in the time ahead, national defence spending will continue to be the larger component

08:07of how we respond back to Europe's security needs. I hope and I expect from the discussions that I can

08:15see happening, that that will be happening in a more coordinated way that has happened in the past.

08:21And I also think it's likely that progress will be made in areas of procurement. Therefore,

08:26that means that if there is a defence dimension to the next MFF and the EU budget, I still think

08:33it's likely to be smaller than the national contribution that members make to their own

08:39security and the security of the EU. And therefore, it is possible that the knock on effect that it will

08:45have on other priorities within the EU budgets may be smaller than we think at the moment.

08:51But, you know, we speak to any prime minister, foreign affairs minister, defence minister across

08:55Europe. They all say the same thing, that this needs to be a unified European response to this

09:01existential threat, that it actually has to be much bigger than what has been sort of offered in

09:06and rearm, and that it has to be European-wide.

09:09David, it's difficult to have that debate and not divorce us from the broader reality that,

09:15firstly, we'll be negotiating a budget for the new European Union. Secondly, next generation EU,

09:22which is the new form of common borrowing that we have to deal with the crisis of a number of years

09:28ago of the pandemic, that that is still happening and still being evaluated. And that in relation to

09:34all of that, both still has to issue and still has to be refinanced and dealt with at some point

09:40in the future. All of those things are going to come together.

09:43What's your assessment of the fact that Europe really has to do this alone now because

09:47the US is telling Europe, we were shifting the burden, we're not sharing the burden,

09:51we're shifting the burden of European security to the European continent alone?

09:55I think that logic applies to so many elements now of the European Union, which is why I made the

10:03point to you there, Shona, that we can't have the debate about defence and security, as existential as

10:08it is, but have that debate without reference to very other big things that are going to happen now

10:15with regard to the EU. But a theme of what is now happening is the rules, the institutions that were

10:21were set up in the aftermath of World War Two, set up with American leadership. They're now being

10:26challenged, they're being contested. The institutions that we know, the rules in relation to trade and

10:32tax are all now open for renegotiation. That is now what is happening.

10:37Was Macron and Draghi right when they said Europe is mortal and it could die?

10:41All political order is mortal. All political order, if not capable of dying, is capable of declining.

10:50That is one of the many lessons that we have from the study of history. The European Union is no

10:54different. If you believe progress is inevitable, you're on your way to seeing that progress decline.

11:00OK, just finally, you're coming up to the end of your second term as president of the Eurogroup.

11:06You're running for a third term. Have other countries declared that they're going to run

11:11against you or what's the situation? So no formal declarations have happened yet,

11:15but of course, it's open to every country to decide, do they want to put forward a candidate

11:20or how do they want to vote? I'm really encouraged by the level of support that I have at the moment.

11:27But really, all my focus is on completing my current mandate, which takes me all up to July.

11:32And then on the basis of my track record, asking countries to continue to support me in that work.

11:38And we have a few weeks to go before we get to that point. And as we have just discussed,

11:42an awful lot can happen in a number of weeks in the world that we're in.

11:46But I am encouraged by the support I've currently received.

11:48OK, well, Pascal Dunneau, Finance Minister for Ireland and President of the Eurogroup.

11:52Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation. Thank you, Shona.

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