France being seen as a haven for Algerian opposition figures 'creates a political problem'

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00:00Let's get more on this developing story. Paul Smith joins us, Associate Professor in French

00:05History and Politics at the University of Nottingham. Paul, as always, great to have

00:09you on the programme. What's your reading of this diplomatic row?

00:14Well, it's a bit of a disappointment, I think, certainly for the French, after they hoped

00:21that after a phone call between Macron and the Moroccan president, that relations were

00:27going to sort of level out. But then, of course, this has carried on. But my interpretation

00:33of this is that there, exactly as your reporter said, there are so many different factors feeding

00:38in here, not least of which, of course, is also domestic politics in France, with Bruno Retayou

00:43being blamed by the Algerian authorities for what's happened in terms of the arrest of the

00:49Algerian nationals. But also, of course, Retayou trying to look like a tough man in relation

00:55to the campaign to become president of Lele Pivikar. And of course, the far right are also

01:01sort of upping the ante with regard to the attitude towards Algeria. So there are all sorts of factors

01:07playing in here to this current crisis, which is just, you know, just every time we think

01:15that it's calmed itself down, it just explodes again.

01:18So in many ways, I should say, it's been like a pot waiting to boil over with so many aspects

01:22coming into this, of course, perhaps most importantly, the decision by Emmanuel Macron

01:28to take Morocco's side over the Western Sahara.

01:31Yes, and that was, I was thinking back about this a little bit earlier on, that, you know,

01:37things seem to be going so well in about in 2022, not long after Macron was re-elected

01:42president, one of his big sort of coups was to go to Algeria, have a really, what looked like

01:48a really productive meeting with the Algerian president who you're seeing there on the screen

01:55back in August of 2022. And then it slowly unraveled. And then, as you say, you know,

02:01in last year, he takes the side, as it were, and certainly that's the way it's seen in

02:06Algiers, taking the side of the Moroccans over the Western Sahara. And this is about a triangular

02:11relationship between Rabat, the Moroccan capital, Algiers and Paris as well. And of course, greater

02:18geopolitical issues with regard to the relationship between Morocco and Israel, but also, of course,

02:25the relationship between Algiers and Rabat between, over the question of rift separatism in

02:31Morocco, supported by the Algerians, and also cabal separatism supported in Algeria, supported

02:37by the Moroccans. So there's this kind of endless kind of problematic of so many different players

02:45around this, but it all kind of centers on this relationship between the former colonial

02:52power and Algeria, between France and Algeria.

02:55You mentioned colonial times there, Paul. Is the fundamental problem between France and

03:00Algeria what goes right back to the War of Independence, which, of course, ended in 1962?

03:05Yeah, before even I was born. So, I mean, that's how long ago it was, but you know that there

03:12is this sort of sense, and I've said it to you before, and not just in regard to this,

03:17but this sort of sense of the war is over, and yet it isn't. And what's actually quite frustrating,

03:25I suppose, is that Macron has been very strong on the idea of trying to bring together Algerian

03:32and French historians to talk about the way that the war can be remembered, and independence

03:39can be remembered, and the French and the Franco-Algerian relationship can be remembered,

03:43and trying to take all the, I mean, you can't just do it through history, but trying to at

03:48least take some of the points and the toxicity out of that relationship and try to normalize

03:56it. Ben Stora, for example, very important figure in that process from the French side,

04:02but that keeps, you know, despite Macron's best intentions, you know, in 2017, he described

04:10French colonial domination of Algeria as a crime against humanity, and that seemed to pave the

04:16way for something new. But that kind of project, that cultural project, seemed to keep stumbling

04:23over considerations in the two capitals, in Paris and in Algiers. France is not, you know,

04:31uniquely responsible for this situation. There is the Algerian part as well, and the regime in

04:36Algiers is, you know, what is happening in Algiers is fundamental as well. But it is still a very long

04:43process, and it doesn't seem to be any closer to resolution.

04:47Nonetheless, though, France, Algeria, the two peoples, there's a kind of inextricable link,

04:54isn't there? How can a better relationship be forged, Paul? I know this is something that many,

04:59many people are still trying to get a handle on, but I'm asking you, do you have any sort of sense of

05:04where progress could be made? Is there something that maybe comes to mind that you think, you know,

05:09could be explored by both sides?

05:11You know, I think at a very basic level, I think most Algerians and most French people get on

05:16perfectly well. But the problem is that it's often a mismatch between when Paris is ready to

05:23make concessions or to take a particular approach, and when Algiers is ready to take a particular

05:29approach. And of course, in Algerian politics, you're dealing with a very powerful president who has a

05:35particular way of seeing his role and his relationship with the rest of the world,

05:40his position within Algiers. And then, of course, you have, you know, France is trying to manage its

05:46geopolitical relationship, but also, of course, France is seen as being the place where opponents

05:52of the current regime can find, you know, safe haven, can find refuge. So that then creates a

06:00political problem. So that it's, it's, and then you have the far right in France using Algeria

06:08as, as a kind of a, as kind of the bit noir, the scapegoat, both sides will do that. It's very

06:15difficult to see how these, at the top level, how these things are resolved. And yet, we know that it

06:22can happen if there's a political, if we think about South Africa, the process of reconciliation

06:27there, if we think about Northern Ireland from the British example, these things can happen. But it's

06:32difficult to see exactly at this moment exactly what it is, what is that event that brings that,

06:39that, that big turn in the relationship.

06:43Paul Smith, thank you, as always, for your assessment and your take on the story. We

06:49really do appreciate it. Associate Professor in French History and Politics at the University

06:53of Nottingham. Paul, thank you very much indeed. We watch, of course, for developments on this

06:58story. Just to remind you, France recalling its ambassador to Algeria, there's been an exchange

07:05of expulsions of embassy staff, and this all centres on a row over Algerian nationals being arrested in

07:12Paris last Friday.

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