Head in the clouds: 'We're not thinking about' the energy required to store our digital data

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00:00At 2% tax on the world's richest, it's the main idea from the host of the G20 summit

00:05currently taking place in Brazil, a gathering of the world's biggest economies, a group

00:10that represents 80% of global gas emissions.

00:14Brazilian President Lula da Silva says he wants the summit to focus on climate change

00:18and on poverty in the world.

00:20His proposals for how to address those issues however, facing immediate resistance, notably

00:24from Argentina.

00:26To tell us more, here's our correspondent.

00:29Combating global hunger and poverty, transitioning to clean energies and sustainable development

00:35and reforming the institutions of global governance, those are the three top priorities for discussion

00:41for Brazil and President Lula as they host the G20 summit here in Rio de Janeiro.

00:48And to help with those first two issues, President Lula is going a step further by suggesting

00:52a 2% minimum tax on the world's super rich, which is estimated to generate around $250

01:00billion per year in the fight against poverty and the climate crisis.

01:06Now while most of the members of the G20 are on board with these propositions by President

01:11Lula, there's an elephant in the summit, in the room here, and that is the US President-elect

01:18Donald Trump.

01:19A well-known climate skeptic who took the US out of the Paris Climate Accord in his

01:24first term as President, and also not a great fan of these institutions of global governance.

01:31Now while he's not here at the summit in person, he will have a very strong ally here, that's

01:38President Javier Millet, the far-right leader of Argentina.

01:42And he's already been objecting to the final statement that's being drafted for the summit.

01:47He's objecting to the 2% minimum tax for the super rich.

01:51He wanted it taken out.

01:53It will stay in the final statement, however, now there will be a reference to Argentina's

01:58objection to it.

02:01On the run-up to the summit, activists in Brazil were wont to show their support of

02:05that call from Lula to help the hungry.

02:07Rachel Griffiths has that story.

02:10733 empty plates on Coba Cabana beach, symbolising the 733 million people around the world who

02:19went hungry last year, according to the United Nations.

02:24Activists are calling for more to be done.

02:29The aim of this public act is to demand that the public authorities attending G20 here

02:34in Rio de Janeiro make a swift commitment to eradicating hunger.

02:43It coincides with the G20 summit Brazil is hosting this year.

02:47The goal is to increase awareness and take action to reduce hunger and poverty in the

02:51coming years.

02:54It's also hoped that the alliance could help in the fight against world hunger.

02:59I think we have a unique opportunity right now, led by President Lula at the G20, the

03:03Global Alliance for Hunger.

03:05It provides an instrument, a tool for these countries to come together and from there

03:10bring a set of public policies that will be able to finance and support the fight against

03:14hunger around the world.

03:20According to the World Health Organization, food insecurity and malnutrition are worsening

03:25due to inflation, conflict and climate change.

03:30These issues are being exacerbated by growing inequality worldwide.

03:36Well that G20 summit is happening at the same time as the International Conference on Climate

03:40Change.

03:41There, talks have stalled over the financing to developing countries to adapt to our warming

03:46world.

03:47Our over-reliance on fossil fuels, our use of plastics, travel methods, deforestation,

03:52over-consumption, the main causes of greenhouse gas emissions are well known to us.

03:56So what about the things we do a lot of that might seem more insignificant, unimportant,

04:01but which have a huge impact?

04:02I'm thinking about our emails, our WhatsApp messages, anything really online in fact is

04:06behind all that, our huge data warehouses with huge carbon footprints.

04:12To take a closer look at that, we can speak now to lecturer in computer science and artificial

04:15intelligence at Loughborough University, Andrea Sotojo.

04:19Thanks so much for your time and being with us.

04:21Can I start by asking you, do you think this, this COP29, do you think that

04:26digital pollution is on the agenda for people?

04:29Good morning. Thanks for having me.

04:32Yeah, I have seen some of the results and I was pleased to see that for the first time,

04:39the digital pollution is now on the agenda and is being talked about.

04:44But it's very early stages, I should say.

04:47Just being put on the agenda.

04:49Give us an idea then of, you know, how dirty is it, this digital pollution?

04:53What are we talking? Does it compare to cars?

04:56Does it compare to cows? How big a percentage of the problem is it?

05:01It is fairly big. Estimates look at two to three percent of global CO2 emissions.

05:10So they place the amount of CO2 that we generate via the digitalisation process,

05:18even superior to that of aviation.

05:20And so that's a significant amount.

05:22But what is even more important is that the trend with the increase in use of our

05:29digital platforms and particularly with artificial intelligence,

05:33this number is going to go up significantly in the next few years.

05:37Yeah, and if it's only hitting the agenda and still not getting quite a lot of focus,

05:40two to three percent is quite a sizable chunk.

05:44We can look at AI in a moment, but I'm thinking, you know, of the tools

05:48we all use on a daily basis.

05:50And I know here at France 24, there's a lot of emails sent.

05:53I mean, does something as small as an email have an impact?

05:57It does, because emails are everywhere and are there all the time.

06:01And there is also the impact of what's called dark data.

06:05That is data that is not accessed anymore.

06:07So if we have a large amount of storage, it could be emails.

06:10It could be photos.

06:11It could be anything that we don't use anymore.

06:13It nevertheless uses energy.

06:17Ah, so I think I'm a very guilty person then.

06:20It's like not deleting, not clearing our inboxes.

06:22It's actually a big part of the problem.

06:26It is a part of the problem.

06:27How big that is, is hard to tell because everything contributes significantly.

06:32What we're trying to do is to create a culture

06:36where we look at what are all possible

06:40parts of the problems.

06:42And so definitely some of the data that we generate

06:46and we don't think about it

06:49is actually responsible for some of the CO2 emissions.

06:53Yeah, especially when it's not, as you say, active data like that.

06:55When it's an email, we might not even have opened.

06:57That's just sitting there for years in some of my cases.

06:59But you've motivated me to go up and clear that inbox.

07:02And I'm also wondering, are the apps on my phone,

07:04are the WhatsApp messages also part of the problem?

07:08Absolutely everything, particularly as things are on the cloud

07:12and we want to have access to something, right?

07:16You want to have access to maybe a photo you took five years ago.

07:19And so the ability to always fetch what you want,

07:25but which you don't do normally, right?

07:27And so all this data is increasing

07:31the energy requirements of very large data centers.

07:35And I think the problem is that every time we buy a new phone,

07:38it has new memory capacity.

07:40It has bigger cameras for more pictures.

07:44And what is worrying is that

07:47we're not really thinking so much about it yet.

07:50No, indeed. OK, so I'm getting the message.

07:51Start printing things out.

07:53Keep a hard copy.

07:54Maybe go back to using the old fashioned landline telephone,

07:57which I'm one of the rare people I still have.

07:59But I know you work specifically in artificial intelligence.

08:02You study that quite a bit.

08:04And it looks like there may be a solution to some extent on that front.

08:07And it's sharing that intelligence.

08:10Right. And I think you also made a point when saying,

08:14oh, should we go back?

08:16Overall, digitalization is contributing

08:20to studying ways to reduce CO2 emissions.

08:25And artificial intelligence is an example

08:28because artificial intelligence allows us to optimize processes

08:34that will reduce CO2 emissions.

08:37But at the same time, it also uses energy.

08:41And this energy is increasing significantly.

08:44As we all know, AI has been in the headlines for a while now.

08:49And we have more and more powerful tools.

08:52These tools use a lot of energy.

08:55And is there any way to reduce that energy?

08:57Because I just say we're not really going to go backwards

08:59when it comes to AI or new technologies, are we?

09:03Absolutely.

09:06There are ways to do so.

09:08But because we are at the very early stages,

09:12I don't think we are making significant efforts yet.

09:15But we're focusing on

09:18pointing out what are the potential drawbacks.

09:22If you think about many other processes in technology

09:26had a similar process, for example, when car were invented,

09:30everyone was happy and everyone thought, that's great.

09:33Let's build a lot of cars.

09:35And it took many decades before people start thinking, oh, wait a minute.

09:39Actually, they do pollute. Let's do something about it.

09:42And I think the same process has to happen with digitalization

09:45and artificial intelligence.

09:47Let's just hope it happens slightly quicker than it did with our car industry.

09:51Given the state of the world today, Mr.

09:53Andrea Sottosio, thanks so much for your time and joining us here on France 24.

09:57My pleasure. Very much appreciated.

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