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  • 1/23/2024
#EPACKDurable's #IPO subscribed 0.77 times or 77% on Day 1.


Promoter Bajrang Bothra and MD & CEO Ajay DD Singhania talks about the ongoing IPO and future plans.


Read: https://bit.ly/428Aw8g
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Transcript
00:00 Hello and welcome to NDTV Profit.
00:02 You are watching IPO HODLA and the company in focus today is EPAC Durables.
00:06 The company is the second largest manufacturer of room air conditioners and original design
00:13 manufacturer which has facilities across Dehradun, Bihari and Shree City and joining me is Mr.
00:19 Bajrang Bhutra who is the Chairman and Whole Time Director and Ajay Singhania who is the
00:23 MD and CEO of the company.
00:24 Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us on NDTV Profit.
00:29 Let me begin with your IPO which is currently open.
00:32 It's priced between Rs. 218 to Rs. 230 and fresh issue Rs. 400 and OFS of Rs. 240.
00:38 So total IPO size is Rs. 640 crores.
00:42 Please tell us the Rs. 400 crores which you are raising through fresh issue, what is it
00:45 going to be used for?
00:46 Good morning, Sajith.
00:47 I think thanks very much for giving us an opportunity to talk to you and through you
00:54 your viewers.
00:55 Just a quick background of the EPAC Group.
00:59 It's a partnership of two families, Bhutra family and Singhania family and we are together
01:03 for last 47 years.
01:05 When we say 47 years of togetherness, it speaks about transparency, ethics, value systems,
01:10 trust, corporate governance and the DNA of alignment.
01:14 So we have been growing with the best customers in the business.
01:17 We have the best of the top seven out of top ten customers in air condition space and similar
01:23 is the count in appliances space also.
01:27 So we feel that the best one keeps us evolving regularly and we keep on improving and they
01:35 bring in huge value to the table.
01:39 And then of course, stakeholder value enhancement is our key focus area.
01:43 Because of this, we are continuously focused on R&D efforts, cost reduction efforts, value
01:48 engineering and diversified product portfolio apart from air condition in the appliances
01:55 space also, so that we can increase our asset turn.
01:58 Having said that, the present issue is 400 crores, of course the fresh issue.
02:05 So out of which 230 crores will be brought back in the company for increasing our capacities
02:13 further beyond FI25, because as the present capacity is of course covers us for our targets
02:20 up to FI25.
02:21 But beyond FI25 also, we are looking at the humongous size of expansions beyond 25 also,
02:27 the market is going to grow substantially.
02:29 So we have to keep ourselves ready.
02:30 So because of this, we are infused 230 crores up to 400 crores.
02:35 80 crores will be used for paying off our long term debt and the balance is for general
02:41 expenses.
02:42 Mr. Singhania, give us a sense of the kind of market growth that you are seeing, especially
02:48 in ODM, you cater to nearly top 10 players in the market.
02:53 What is the kind of growth that you are seeing in this market?
02:58 So see currently the AC market, I mean the penetration is so low in India, we have just
03:02 8% penetration per household, which compared to global average of 42 is way less than the
03:08 global average.
03:09 So like you said, there's a humongous scope for the market to actually explode.
03:17 And looking at the current way the economy is growing over the last 3-4 years, when at
03:21 12% absolute growth in economy, the market is projected to grow at another 12% CAGR.
03:27 So we are seeing a huge market opportunity in front of us.
03:29 And on top of it, the outsourcing percentage is actually increasing year on year.
03:33 So outsourcing increase is going to surpass the market growth.
03:36 Currently, the outsourcing market is close to 32 to 35%, which is expected to become
03:41 almost 40% in next 5 years.
03:43 So the ODM, OEM growth will surpass the market growth and definitely we being in leadership
03:48 position here amongst the top, being the second largest, definitely stand a good chance to
03:52 outgrow the market.
03:54 What is the kind of margin profile that you get in this market, sir, because you are producing
03:58 for some of the biggest manufacturers or branded players.
04:04 And I was seeing your QH1 margin, it was coming to around 6%, which has fallen from 6.7% in
04:12 FY23.
04:14 So what is the kind of margin profile that you work on and which are the, what are the
04:18 levers that can push the margin profiles higher?
04:21 Definitely.
04:22 Yeah.
04:23 See, average margin over last 3-4 years have been within a range of band of 7% to 8% on
04:28 an annualized basis.
04:29 So that's the typical margin for an air condition manufacturer on an annualized basis between
04:36 7% to 8%.
04:37 But there are a couple of things which the management is aware of, we are aware of and
04:43 working continuously to improve.
04:45 So like, currently, almost 80% of our dependence is on air conditioning and only 20% on the
04:52 small domestic appliances and the non-AC business.
04:55 So since AC is a highly seasonal business, we understand there's a huge opportunity for
05:00 us to utilize our asset and improve our asset and utilize our assets better during the off-peak
05:06 of AC season.
05:08 So we've been working on a lot of other appliances in non-AC segments like coolers, washing machines,
05:15 then small domestic kitchen appliances.
05:17 So a lot of these appliances are under development, and some of them are in the very advanced stage
05:22 of development, which will definitely help us improve our asset utilization.
05:27 And once the asset utilization improves, definitely the off-peak 7 months when we kind of literally
05:33 consider a lot of margin which is accrued during the previous 5 months get bled into
05:38 those 7 months.
05:39 So that is one very high focus area for us is to improve our asset utilization during
05:45 the balance 7 months.
05:47 Second area of our focus is improving our working capital cycle.
05:52 So we are continuously working on improving our working capital cycle.
05:55 In the last 2 years alone, I mean, from almost 120, we reduced it to 19 effort, 23, and as
06:00 of September, you can see the improvement to 60 days.
06:04 So I mean, we've improved our working capital cycle to almost 50% in the last 18 months.
06:09 So that's another key focus area for us is to continuously work on our working capital
06:12 cycle.
06:13 And most important for us as an ODM is to continuously work on our R&D.
06:18 So see, as an ODM, we just don't assemble the final product.
06:22 We are design-led manufacturing industries company.
06:26 So we design, then we manufacture the components, and then we deliver the final product.
06:30 So there's a lot of focus on improving our bill of material by way of design and developing
06:37 newer and more innovative products which will definitely help us improve our margins.
06:42 So three levers for us, like I said, is asset utilization, asset turn, second is the working
06:48 capital, and third is our R&D focus.
06:51 Give me a sense of your profitability as well, because I'm seeing 32 crores of profit for
06:56 FY23 and 2.65 for the first half.
07:01 Why is this differential profit?
07:04 Is there a stationarity to it or certain additions that you have made in FY23, you haven't done
07:09 it in the first half?
07:10 See, again, on an annualized basis, like for the calendar, for the financial year 23, the
07:17 margin was closer to 2.5% on the payback.
07:21 And for the six-month ended, like, I mean, this doesn't depict the right mix because
07:29 it is here in the H1, the first two quarters, we had only two months of the ACCs in April
07:37 and May, and then the lean season starts from mid of May itself.
07:41 So for us, the key months for AC business, especially start from December, January, February,
07:47 March, these are the four months for us, wherein most of the top line, bottom line comes.
07:52 So these four months are more critical for an AC manufacturer.
07:55 And at the same time, like we were discussing, we have added a recent facility in South of
08:00 India in Srishti, wherein we have increased our capacity by almost 50%.
08:05 So our earlier capacity was almost 2.45 million units of air condition.
08:09 Today, as we talk, our capacity has already increased to 3.7 million.
08:13 So we have added another 50% capacity by this new plant in Srishti, for which the key months
08:19 of utilization have just started.
08:21 The PLI is coming from the Srishti facility?
08:24 It is applicable across all the three facilities.
08:27 So we can PLI benefit in all the three facilities.
08:30 Give me a sense of, you know, I was looking at the RHP and you mentioned there that you
08:35 had applied for a grant of 15 crores, which you have recognized in FY23.
08:42 And that is what is coming to 31 or 32 crores in profit.
08:46 But it seems that you have not done that in the first half of the year.
08:49 Why is that?
08:50 See, PLI incentive in the previous financial year, FY23, was equated at 15 crores.
08:57 So last year being the first year of disbursement, there were certain procedural delays from
09:02 the government side, which now most of it are sorted out.
09:05 And the government just came out with a circular promising that disbursement will be done before
09:10 end of March 24 for the previous financial year.
09:14 So our benefit amount was like you're right, is it 15 crores for the last year.
09:17 For this year, the benefit is going to be almost 30 crores.
09:21 So the benefit is linked to the investment.
09:24 So for last year, we were supposed to do an investment in 22 or 50 crores, achieve an
09:30 incremental revenue of 250 crores, 6% of which 15 crores was the benefit.
09:35 For this financial year, last two years put together, the investment was supposed to be
09:39 100 crores, five times the revenue 500 crores, 6% of it 30 crores.
09:44 So this year it is 30 crores, next year, again, there's an incremental investment, incremental
09:49 revenue and incremental PLI.
09:51 So going on this way, we are supposed to do 50, 50, 50, 75, 75, totally 300 crores of
09:56 investment against which in five years, the total incentive is going to be almost 230
10:01 crores.
10:02 So you haven't accrued the profits or PLI incentive in FY 24 so far.
10:09 And that's why it's showing that way.
10:11 Yeah, for this year, we will do it in the end of the March end.
10:16 In the fourth quarter and the payments will come in the next financial year.
10:20 Is that how it is?
10:21 Yes.
10:22 And we are hopeful that for the next financial year, the payment should come probably within
10:26 the shorter span of time as compared to this year because this year was the first year.
10:30 So definitely there were some procedure delays.
10:32 Because we have seen many of the companies accruing the incentives, but the government
10:37 is not recognized the extent of the entire incentive sort and they had to reverse this
10:43 going forward.
10:44 So, you know, have you got an approval from the government on the kind of incentive that
10:50 you sought?
10:51 Yeah, we already have all the approvals in place.
10:54 Okay.
10:55 Mr. Bhotra, give us a sense of how the production capacity will look like once all the investments
11:00 come through 230 odd crores spread over next few years.
11:04 You know, Mr. Singhania spoke about that, you know, the investments have to be made
11:07 over a period of time for next three to five years.
11:11 And that's the kind of incentive that you're going to get from government as well.
11:16 Once this entire investment is put in place, what is the total capacity increase that will
11:21 happen?
11:22 Yeah, see, the present capacity is 3.6 million units of air conditions.
11:26 There are two in Bihari and Srishti put together.
11:31 And this is, you know, this is good enough to meet our targets up to FY25.
11:37 But since as I explained to you that we are seeing a humongous growth in the air condition
11:41 segment is going to explode, we have to build up capacities further because the building
11:46 capacity also takes 12 to 18 months time.
11:48 So once we, you know, go for expansion and do the investments, of course, over a period
11:54 of 10 to 12 quarters, our capacity is increased to by another 2.4 million units.
12:01 So it becomes 6 million units plus.
12:04 The breakup of the product portfolio that you have between room air conditioners and
12:09 the small domestic appliances, is it going to change going forward?
12:13 I understand that margins are slightly higher for domestic home appliances as compared to
12:17 room air conditioners.
12:18 So what is your game plan there?
12:21 So you see, the good part is that, you know, when we say capacities, we talk about air
12:26 condition capacities, because when we go for manufacturing of appliances, that's the game
12:30 plan of our company that we have to make, you know, our assets increasing more and more.
12:37 So that's why we are developing small appliances and going forward for mid appliances also
12:42 so that we can utilize our assets during the oxygen period.
12:45 Our air condition business is, you know, six to seven months market, and we have lean period
12:50 after that.
12:51 So once we see all those assets which we invest in all fungible assets.
12:56 So most of the assets are used for making appliances only, maybe that heat exchanger
13:01 is not used, but otherwise all assets are getting used that.
13:05 So when we talk about capacities, we talk about air condition capacities and then of
13:09 course for making appliances, capacities available to us.
13:15 You have a long relationship with most of the top companies in this space.
13:21 But why is it that you don't have long term agreements with them?
13:25 This is how the space behaves.
13:29 See every stickiness of our customers is 8.5 years.
13:32 So that's a long period because the customer will stick to us.
13:38 If we can deliver good quality, good delivery, and our field failure ratio is satisfactory,
13:44 then only the customer keeps on giving business to us.
13:47 The Odeon space, there is no such agreement in place, but then the relationship works
13:51 and our delivery in terms of quality and all that works.
13:56 So that long term agreement is not in place for any of the Odeon as an industry as such.
14:01 This is a normal practice.
14:02 Yeah, but Odeon also means that it gives you the intellectual property and the R&D which
14:11 you are spending on a product and you can leverage it much better.
14:17 Won't companies be more interested in locking in those technologies or IP so that they can
14:22 provide better products compared to the competitors?
14:26 Let me add here.
14:29 Yeah, Sajid, see one EPAC is an ODM like you rightly said.
14:33 So herein what we supply to our customer is a complete design product wherein the IP for
14:39 the product design, the project engineering is with us.
14:42 Now with a track record of with an average relationship of 8.5 plus years of relationship
14:47 with the top clients, there is a certain amount of very high lead time when it comes to entering
14:55 into a relationship with our customer, especially when they are the leaders in the industry.
15:00 An average decision period just to enter into a relationship is nothing less than 12 to
15:04 18 months.
15:05 So when we're in an 18 months of time is spent in jointly developing a product, there is
15:10 definitely an informal understanding and stickiness by virtue of which you can see that we have
15:14 continuously grown with the top brands in the country.
15:17 So a written agreement here I don't think plays much of a crucial role because agreements
15:22 are not which give business, it is more of your old standing relationship in which you
15:27 have both grown together.
15:28 So there's so much of interdependence.
15:30 And second, you can see that where the OEM ODM industry is structured currently, it's
15:35 a three, four player industry.
15:37 So it's not a crowded manufacturer, wherein we have more than 30, 40 players competing
15:44 against each other and the market is growing the ODMs, ODM growth is surpassing the market
15:50 growth.
15:51 So there's enough room for each one of us to grow.
15:53 So I mean, we don't think that any agreement will give us any benefit.
15:59 It is our manufacturing capabilities, our strength to deliver the products and continuously
16:04 innovate basis which we have, we have shown the results in the last three to four years.
16:09 So definitely, it is more of our capability to deliver the right product at the right
16:14 time with the desired quality levels that has given us the results and going forward
16:19 that's our strategy.
16:20 We want to continue, we want to focus on R&D and deliveries and ramp up the capacities
16:27 ahead of the market.
16:29 How do you manage the pricing in that sense?
16:31 Because if it's a PO based order book that you have, how do you manage the pricing?
16:37 Because a PO based order book will have competitive pricing coming in, right?
16:42 So it's not exactly PO based, Sajith.
16:44 It is, we will say the relationship for ODMs in air condition is season based.
16:50 So before the starting of each season, we have an annual projection from each customer,
16:55 each of the key customer in front of us, and we allocate them capacities.
16:59 So once the capacities are allocated to customer, it is, that is for the entire season and the
17:04 pricing is also more or less decided for the entire season with a clause that any fluctuation
17:10 in commodities, because commodities are out of our control.
17:13 So any change in let's say LME or foreign exchange is passed on every month or every
17:19 quarter.
17:20 So there is an adjustment in terms of commodities and exchange rate.
17:24 So we are safeguarded against any enforcing events in case the crude goes up or let's
17:29 say the LME falls or increases.
17:32 So that's the way the relationship is structured in this industry.
17:36 My final question to is, what is the order book you're sitting on for FY 24-25?
17:41 See I'll put it this way.
17:44 Last year we started a facility in Diwadi and we increased our capacities.
17:49 Our capacities were kind of sold off.
17:51 This year we've added additional 50% capacity recently, only in last month.
17:56 And what we are looking at in front of us is 5 to 6 months of peak season time.
18:02 So we feel that the capacities which we have set up has come up in the right time for us
18:06 to be able to utilize during the 5-6 months of peak months for AC manufacturing.
18:15 Okay, gentlemen, I'll leave it there.
18:17 Thank you very much for joining us.
18:18 Our IPO is currently underway and it closes on Jan 24.
18:21 It's a fresh issue of 400 crores and OFS of 240 crores priced between 218 to 230 rupees
18:28 per share.
18:29 Thank you for watching NDTV Profit and being on IPO.
18:32 Thank you.
18:37 [music]

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