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00:00We're in the business of telling you how to grow your wealth.
00:08It's even in the name, NDTV Profit.
00:11And we often talk about powerful concepts like staying the course and compounding that
00:15are part of the recipe for success.
00:18But there are things that people don't tell you about creating wealth and that's what
00:22I'd like to talk about on this episode of Money Wise.
00:25My guest today is Vijay Mantri, someone I've always appreciated for being a straight shooter.
00:31Vijay, thanks so much for taking the time.
00:33My pleasure.
00:34Now, I want to talk about this because a lot of people have said that it's important to
00:39start early.
00:40And this is something that we tell everybody that we meet, start early.
00:44But people worry about when they should start in terms of where the market's at.
00:50And some people, rightly so, have pointed out that in some pockets, valuations are stretched.
00:56But does it really matter when you start?
00:58See, in a way, yes and no.
01:00The answer is both.
01:02But the point is that the markets and market stops and bottoms are only known after they
01:08actually happen.
01:09So when you take a decision at that moment, nobody knows whether the market is stopping
01:16or not.
01:17We are hearing the same narrative for the last almost 18 months.
01:20The market is stopping, market is stopping, valuation has stretched.
01:25But what happened?
01:26The mid-cap index is up 50%, the small cap 60%, nifty 30%, nifty 500, around 40%.
01:34So you almost lost two to three years' money listening to people like us.
01:39So the best thing to do is to, when you have money, start investing and expect 10% to 20%
01:47volatility on your portfolio at whatever level you start, whether you start at 26,000
01:52nifty or 20,000 nifty or 15,000 nifty.
01:56So before you look at the return, you should look at what is a drawdown possible on your
02:01portfolio and how comfortable you are with the drawdown.
02:06Serious wealth cannot be created without going through the journey of drawdown.
02:11If you're just looking at 20% return and say, 20% nahi mila to 18 mil jayega, 12 mil
02:17jayega.
02:18But the journey doesn't happen like this, that 20% return can become negative also.
02:22And particularly when you start, then the market can go down 10%, 20%.
02:26What's the worst loss that you've incurred personally?
02:29And what is the learning that you had from that?
02:32The worst loss I incurred was 58% drawdown in 2008.
02:37And I knew this will happen, 20%, 30%, but 58% in 2008, nobody expected, but it happened.
02:46But the good thing is I didn't take money out.
02:48So what happened that when the market recovered, my portfolio also went up.
02:53But I do remember people in 2008, they took money out in November 2007, or December 2007,
03:00or January 2008, almost at the peak of the market.
03:04But these guys were not able to reenter.
03:08So my portfolio, which has witnessed 58% drawdown, after four, five years, or six years, was
03:15doing very well.
03:16And the guys were trying to time the market actually got one leg of the timing, right.
03:21But they could not reenter and we have seen that playing out again and again.
03:25And that really is the key, right?
03:26Because if you are trying to time the market, you have to be right on two occasions, which
03:31is very, very hard to do.
03:33Absolutely impossible.
03:34And just look at one of the greatest investors, Warren Buffet, sitting on cash for the last
03:40two years.
03:41And a significant amount of cash.
03:43And we have seen even in India, certain portfolio managers who are sitting on 30% cash.
03:48Now the problem when you sit on 30% cash, you're always figuring out that 30% cash call
03:55should be right.
03:57And not worried about worrying about 70%, which is an equity, you always pray the market should
04:01go down.
04:02So it is a very, very, you know, in my mind, confused kind of a status people would have.
04:09Money invested in the market and the market going down have a cure.
04:14Money not invested in market have no cure.
04:17What is a cure for money invested in the market that is going down?
04:20So you keep investing, you know, regular investing is one of the best way to participate.
04:27Let's assume that you started at January 2008, when Nifty was, when Sensex was 21,000.
04:34And suppose you started on that day only, okay.
04:37And the market went down to below 8000 by March 2009.
04:42So your portfolio is effectively down 50% plus, but your SIP portfolio is down only
04:4735-36%.
04:48But by June 2009, the market is only at 15,000.
04:54Starting point 21,000.
04:55Market went down to 8-9000 came back to 15,000 from 21,000-15,000 is still 20-30% lower.
05:03But since you are investing at every level at 15,000, you're in money, you're in the
05:08money.
05:09And that's a powerful concept.
05:11Nobody's saying that this exact scenario will play out again.
05:14Because incidentally, the next crack that took place, the next next major crack that
05:18took place was a what 38% drawdown in the Nifty 50 when COVID happened, but the crash
05:24happened over two months or two and a half months, as opposed to 14 months of the 2008
05:30financial crisis.
05:31So in 2008, the market came back to the same level after 73 months.
05:37In 2004, 2019, 92 came after 136 months, and in year 2000, it came after 54 months.
05:45So, but the point is that when we give this number of 72 months or, or 134 months, we
05:51assume that people invested only at that particular moment and exited at the bottom,
05:56but nobody invest only at that particular moment.
05:59So if I pick one of the longest bear face in the market was from 1992 to 2003, for almost
06:0611 years, no money, provided you started at the top and exited at the bottom.
06:11But let's assume you invested six months before, continue to invest and even invest at six
06:17months after the loss come down substantially.
06:20Suppose you started 12 months before, and continue your journey after 12 months, you
06:24are in money in 18 months time, okay, instead of 11 years.
06:27So that is a power of investing on a regular basis, because nobody knows the tops and the
06:33bottoms of the markets are there only known when they happen.
06:37This was actually proven in a in a report that studied various market cycles over multiple
06:43periods, I believe it was Y2 Capital.
06:46And they said that you start an SIP at the peak, you start an SIP at the bottom, obviously
06:50the bottom being after the peak.
06:53And they found that the difference between the two was barely anything, if at all less
06:58than a percentage point over the course of what 14 years or thereabouts.
07:03That's why that's very true.
07:04And very interestingly, people say we made money gold is considered to be the safest
07:09investment option real estate, and people say we made a lot of money.
07:13Interestingly, people made money in gold and real estate not because of view, but because
07:18of holding period.
07:19Yeah, your holding period was forever.
07:21Gold in India from 1946 to 1966 for 20 a period and INR had has not delivered return.
07:29Even recent past 2011 2018 gold has not delivered return.
07:33So we have 10 10 sorry, say that again 2011 to 2018 because of the depreciation of whatever
07:39the reason in INR, I have seen five years, seven years, 10 years, 20 a period where gold
07:44has not delivered return.
07:46But people never complain.
07:47But despite the fact that it is globally one of the top asset classes over the last 14
07:52years, but in spite of that, and only no, not a is not a global biggest set, except
07:56for the Indians.
07:57Yeah, it is not.
07:58It's not a big asset category.
08:00It is.
08:01So large part of gold is owned by Indian and Chinese.
08:04So when you look at gold, the way people own gold is very, very interesting and very
08:09instructive the way people own real estate and the way people own equity.
08:12So when you own gold, and if you ask anybody, nobody will tell you CAGR, nobody talks about
08:21CAGR.
08:22Nobody talked about drawdown.
08:23Yeah.
08:24So it's very interesting on the day on which on the day of budget, the government has reduced
08:29duty on gold, and the gold prices went down by 4000 to 6000 rupees per 10 gram.
08:35And everybody's saying, assume on that day, suppose Nifty has to go down 4%, there's no
08:42faith in equity market where perhaps the wealth creation has been the longest, the best.
08:48And when I talk to people say, real estate or gold, we don't see it in equity, it's our
08:53Demat statement, account statement.
08:56So my simple question is, you live in Bombay, you have a residential property, what proof
09:00do you have?
09:01Do you have a society's share certificate?
09:04You and me are Indian citizens, what is the proof?
09:06A passport.
09:07It's just a paper.
09:09That's true.
09:10Okay, that's a fair point.
09:11And a very interesting point that you've made.
09:14So therefore, okay, in your opinion, and this is, I can anticipate what your answer is going
09:19to be.
09:21Long term wealth creation, is equity the primary tool?
09:25Absolutely.
09:26Because what is the biggest risk to your capital?
09:30The biggest risk to your capital, suppose you have 500 rupees not in your pocket, and
09:34I have, if I have to ask you to take this, so take 500 rupees and put in a locker.
09:39After 10 years, what happened to that 500 rupees?
09:41It loses value.
09:42So what is the biggest risk?
09:44It is not termite.
09:45It is the purchasing power.
09:47And what is the concept of purchasing power?
09:50The reverse of that is inflation.
09:52So what causes inflation?
09:55The product which we are consuming, their prices goes up.
09:58So it gets up in the morning, toothpaste.
10:00So toothpaste is too obvious.
10:02But when we enter the bathroom, there are many other products we are consuming.
10:04We are consuming steel, we are consuming tiles, building material product companies.
10:09On an average, a typical Indian consumes 160 listed companies' product knowingly or unknowingly.
10:16So their prices are going up.
10:18So how do you fight that?
10:20You fight by becoming their owner.
10:22If you can't, if you can't beat them, join them.
10:24So I give a very simple illustration.
10:26Let's look at the gold.
10:27Yeah.
10:28Who made more money?
10:29My great grandfather used to walk to the gold keeper shop and he had a very small shop.
10:33My grandfather used to walk on a cycle and he had a bigger showroom.
10:37My father took a scooter and the gold owners opened two, three more showroom.
10:41I went in a car and the gold, the jeweler has seven, eight shops.
10:47Who made money?
10:48The jeweler.
10:49More money.
10:51Clear instruction, clear, you know, just look at, in last 20 year, gold prices went up 16
10:56to 20 times.
10:57Gold has done very good, great.
10:59But Titan has gone up 485 times.
11:02Similarly, look at building.
11:03You look at building material companies, look at all the wire companies, switches companies,
11:07cement companies, steel company, the companies which help you to manufacture or build real
11:13estate.
11:14Look at the stock price of these companies.
11:15Look at Sundaram Finance.
11:16Look at HDFCB's fund.
11:18These kind of things.
11:19Sundaram Finance, 20 years portfolio has gone up.
11:21Sundaram Finance market cap in 20 years has gone up 100 times.
11:25So a choice is between being consumer or an owner.
11:29Equity provide you the option to become owner of what you're consuming.
11:34Absolutely.
11:35Okay.
11:36When it comes to risk and it's defined differently, some people choose to look at volatility as
11:41a measure of risk, not necessarily the best way.
11:44Because you've said volatility presents the best opportunity to average your cost if you
11:49are holding for the long term.
11:52When we're talking about a long term equity portfolio, in your opinion, is an outperformer
12:01on the upside more important or is the ability to protect your downside more important?
12:07See when you talk about risk, the perception of risk is very different from the reality
12:11of risk.
12:12Okay.
12:13So when we talk about FD, we think it is a very safe investment option.
12:16It's the perception.
12:17Reality is what?
12:19The cost of inflation or the living standard goes up 8-9% every year and the FD gives you
12:257%.
12:26So is it protecting?
12:27And post-tax.
12:28Post-tax.
12:29Inflation compound.
12:30FD rarely compound.
12:31When you own real estate, there's a whole kind of risk.
12:32When you own gold, there's a different kind of risk, physical threat to life.
12:36But the perception that these are safe investment option, when it comes to equity, the perception
12:42is that it is a riskier asset because you see the ticker every day.
12:46You get nervous looking at that number, looking at that thing.
12:50You need to understand, in my opinion, volatility is not a risk.
12:55Risk is where you can lose your capital permanently.
12:58In real estate, you can lose your capital permanently.
13:01In a bad debt product, you can lose your capital permanently.
13:04In equity mutual fund where you have or index where you have 200 or 300 leading business
13:11are being represented through a different kind of theme, there could be temporary volatility.
13:17There could be temporary loss of capital, but there can never be permanent loss of capital
13:21until and unless India is going down.
13:24When India goes down, GDP collapse, then forget about equity market.
13:27Even our business will not do well.
13:29Our real estate portfolio will not do well.
13:32So volatility is not risk in my opinion.
13:34People should understand and accept, if you want your wealth to grow 20-30 times, then
13:40you should be able to take 20-30% temporary downside on your portfolio.
13:45Without that, wealth will not grow properly.
13:47Okay, point taken.
13:49But when you make investments into equity, you have various choices, right?
13:53You can choose to invest in the frontline companies.
13:57It's a different style of investing, and I'm talking about building an individual stock
14:01portfolio.
14:02And similarly, if you're investing in mutual funds as well, or you can choose to invest
14:07in smaller companies that have higher potential for growth, and that may not be valued as
14:14expensively as your frontline companies.
14:17The question that I'm asking is that in all probability, the smaller companies have higher
14:21risk of drawdown, but higher potential for growth.
14:25I'm talking about balancing of risk and return.
14:28Sometimes it's not worth it.
14:29I see so many people investing in companies that are penny stocks, that don't have functional
14:35businesses, but that are trading significantly higher than they were even a couple of years
14:42back.
14:43And that tells me that people want to make a quick buck.
14:46The question that I'm asking is, do you protect your downside or do you go for broke and say
14:5020,000 shares?
14:52And I got a question yesterday on that 20,000 shares in a company at 47 rupees, which is
14:57now 40 rupees.
14:59And the gentleman has lost so much money, just because they're going for broke in a
15:02stock that promised them outsized returns.
15:07So one of the worst thing is that in investment is that how much other people are making.
15:13So that is what catches people and people are not very comfortable growing wealth slowly.
15:20So that is a problem.
15:21So if you look at what kind of return equity market does deliver 15% compounded in today's
15:26market, if it's a 15% return, that kind of thing.
15:31So when you look at investing in equity, you just need to keep in mind that what has
15:35been the long term track record, long term track record has been 12 to 15%.
15:39That is the kind of return you're going to make.
15:41If you make excess return, then future expect volatility, either the return will come up
15:47front or volatility will come up front.
15:49So that choice you need to make.
15:51So in this market, in the current market, in my opinion, micro cap, small cap, mid cap
15:58are in little challenging territory.
16:02So advice to investor to avoid taking fresh allocation, and do more allocation into large
16:08cap or flexi cap and multi cap kind of structure.
16:12Fair point.
16:14When we're talking about investing for the long term, a lot of times and I'm not talking
16:19about which product, but a lot of times people say it's important to hit the one crore as
16:24quickly as possible.
16:26And this is from the perspective of building generational wealth.
16:29Why is that a very powerful number in today's context, of course,
16:33crorepati.
16:34Who will become a crorepati?
16:36So that earlier used to be lakhpati.
16:38But few years back time, one newspaper carried a death of a lakh.
16:43Now we're talking about crorepati and sometime we'll forget about crorepati.
16:45We'll talk about millionaire in USD 8-9 crore.
16:49So yeah, it gives you a sense of you arrived in life kind of your one crore of wealth,
16:53which very few people in India has.
16:56So in numbers, it is large, but percentage wide, very few people have.
17:00So you can do a 10,000 rupees SIP and do for 21 years, you will hit one crore target.
17:08At what rate of return?
17:0912% XIRR.
17:10So very normal.
17:11So 10,000 rupees SIP, 12% XIRR in 21 years.
17:15Without stepping it up?
17:17Without stepping up.
17:18But if you want to go faster, then you do 10,000 rupees and every year increase your
17:23SIP amount by 10%.
17:25Instead of 21 years, that number will come to 16 years.
17:29But keep in mind, one crore today, 20 years down the line, is not going to be one crore.
17:37So if you are keeping target of one crore, looking at current market condition, you should
17:42look at current, you know, where we are, I think you should look at half a million dollar
17:46as a target, not one crore.
17:48Because today's one crore will be half a million USD four crore 21 years later.
17:53So I think you need to increase your SIP allocation from 10,000 to 30,000, 40,000.
17:56Do you think that this is one of the most common mistake that people make when they
18:00look at their finances?
18:01A lot of people get swayed by these numbers.
18:03Of course, we're living in Mumbai, where property prices have gone absolutely berserk.
18:09And you have, you know, two BHKs that are selling in the suburbs that are two crores,
18:14two and a half, three crores.
18:16It's unimaginable for large parts of the population.
18:18But then outside of Mumbai, if people say, look, I want to retire with three crore.
18:23It's not something that is completely unprecedented.
18:25But are they truly valuing what that three crore is going to be 20 years down the line?
18:31I don't think because what is happening that forget about the inflation, which is like
18:35six percent, four and a half percent.
18:37The real inflation is much higher because of discretionary spending, healthcare, education.
18:44These are hitting eight to nine percent numbers.
18:46So the three crore will not remain three crore.
18:49So don't take that number as sacrosanct.
18:51So lots of people want to retire early.
18:53My advice to them, don't do it.
18:56It is not right.
18:57Otherwise, we'll forget about financially as well.
19:00So keep working as long as as you want to work and keep saving, build a corpus.
19:05And then when you have you just look at one thing, whatever corpus you have, and if you
19:11just take four percent of that corpus every year and increase it by six to eight percent
19:16per annum, and that is enough to fund you for next 20 years.
19:21That is a magical number.
19:22So let me make it very simple.
19:23Suppose you have a ten one crore rupees as your corpus.
19:27You should be able to take four lakh out every year and then increase it by six percent.
19:33The amount that you withdraw?
19:34Yeah.
19:35So you need to figure out is four lakh is enough for you to run your household.
19:39Whatever that number is, whatever that number is, you take twenty five times of that.
19:43I think that is the right number.
19:45Twenty five times of your annual expenses, expenses, and we haven't considered tax in
19:51that.
19:52Wow.
19:53OK, so but I'm pretty sure that most people, even people listening into this, they're not
19:57going to be at twenty five times their expenses.
19:59They may never reach twenty five times of their expenses.
20:02So that is a big worry.
20:03Very honestly, that is a big worry.
20:05But the only part is that the family size is becoming shorter.
20:09The wealth accretion is happening.
20:11People have legacy wealth.
20:14They will inherit something.
20:16They have a real estate portfolio, they have inherited gold.
20:18So just just not financial assets.
20:20So I don't see that kind of distress with many, you know, for instance, look at twenty
20:27years back.
20:28We were seeing Europe will go through pension crisis.
20:30Yeah.
20:31It didn't happen.
20:32It hasn't happened yet.
20:33No, it won't.
20:34You think it won't?
20:35No.
20:36OK, but that's a conversation for another date.
20:38I'm curious what you think about gambling, Vijay.
20:43What's your opinion on gambling?
20:45So it is the charm of outsize gain is always there.
20:52So I put one rupees and I get thousand rupees.
20:55That charm will always be there.
20:57It is too too human not to gamble.
21:00So it is as old as hills.
21:02People will keep gambling.
21:04So if you are a smart investor, you make money out of the stupidity of people.
21:09So for instance, we have seen SEBI data, which says in last three years, retail investor
21:15in F&R lost one lakh eighty thousand crore rupees.
21:21Who made money?
21:22Stock exchanges, custodian, brokers.
21:26You were talking about the jeweler.
21:27Exactly.
21:28So BFSI.
21:29So you don't if you see, you know, people have unhealthy habits.
21:33People are consuming more alcohol than, you know, pharmaceutical companies will do well.
21:37So people won't listen.
21:42People are too addicted to habits.
21:43So they won't.
21:45So speculation is not even F&R is not even a speculation.
21:49It is actually addiction.
21:51It is.
21:52Interestingly, the original concept of F&R, it's supposed to serve as a hedge for what
21:58happens in your portfolio.
22:00But nobody uses it like that, Vijay.
22:02Actually, very interesting.
22:03The oldest addiction humanity has it of salt.
22:07Your starting point is always good.
22:09It's preserved food.
22:10It makes food tastier.
22:11But our our the way we live has changed.
22:14We stop sweating, but we still we consume the same quantity of salt.
22:17So what happened?
22:18It leads to high blood pressure.
22:20So everything is start with a good intent and they had a good utility.
22:24But we we first we overuse, then we misuse, then we abuse.
22:29Yeah.
22:30OK.
22:31So, you know, in case it wasn't evident by gambling, I was talking about trading derivatives,
22:37which a lot has been said in the recent past, so I'm not going to say anything more.
22:40But I don't want to talk about when you should sell.
22:44And I know that we're talking about building intergenerational wealth.
22:48And the idea is that you don't sell the family silver.
22:51But ultimately, there are moments where certain holdings might require you to sell.
22:58You mentioned it yourself.
23:00You don't want to delve too much into the broader end of the market right now to microcap
23:04into small cap.
23:05In some instances, the valuations have skyrocketed.
23:09Do you use these opportunities to take money off of the table at all or do you not worry
23:15about that?
23:16So if you do that, then don't regret if they go up after you're selling it.
23:19So the question is that why not the same question when it comes to gold or real estate, real
23:25estate or FD?
23:27Why it comes to or insurance?
23:28Why it only in equities?
23:29Why not NPS?
23:30Why not EPFO?
23:31Why equity where allocation is only 5% of total household wealth?
23:35But let's take the way it is, okay, so when do you should sell?
23:39So one is that when you need money, okay, don't bother very honestly sell, use the money
23:43for whatever purpose you want to upgrade your car or house or whatever reason you do that
23:47gets education.
23:48That is the way to do it.
23:50Second thing is that when the equity has grown out of proportion as far as asset allocation
23:56is concerned, what is the definition of that?
23:58So I'll come to that.
23:59A lot of people say 100 minus your age should be I don't believe in that logic because everybody
24:04have a different kind of thing.
24:05So I have a very simple way where I address to my investor.
24:09Number one is that you figure out what would be your total expenses over the next three
24:14to five years, your household expenses, your EMI, car loan, whatever it is, and how predictable
24:20is your income is going to be.
24:22The gap has to be always in debt and debt oriented product.
24:26Beyond that money start moving into hybrid best balance advantage fund, and then go into
24:32equity mutual fund.
24:34But keep in mind, even suppose you have 1 crore rupees and 20 lakh invested in debt
24:38product and 80 lakh invested in other product.
24:41But on that 80 lakh rupees, you should be mentally prepared that portfolio can go down
24:4520 to 30% any point of time.
24:48Now you should take equity exposure to only to that extent where you're comfortable with
24:5320 to 30% going down.
24:55So instead of 80 lakh, you say no, I'm not comfortable on that.
24:58So I'll invest only 50 lakh into equities or 30 lakh into equity.
25:02So very important to keep that in mind.
25:04It is just not plain.
25:05Even if you have a 10% equity allocation, you're not understanding that drawdown, that
25:08even 10% become too difficult for you to hold in a difficult market condition.
25:13Yeah, so it is, it is very, very important.
25:16And these things, data can be tested, but how people will react when they actually see
25:22portfolio losses.
25:24It is only when that moment happened, you'll get to know.
25:27That's why it's very important to have a good advisor working with you.
25:30That's a fair point.
25:32Closing thoughts.
25:34If you're, if you're handing wealth over, what do you need to bear in mind?
25:38Because I know that a lot of people are quite enamored now, because of the kind of wealth
25:44that has been created over the last 20 years, in particular, in the equity markets, building
25:50intergenerational wealth.
25:53If you are somebody that is inheriting, how do you utilize that?
25:57You keep it invested?
25:58Because the tendency and the lure is always to utilize that and to improve your quality
26:05of living.
26:06So Hindi mein kehte hain ki dhan ke teen hi raaste hain, bhog, daan aur naash.
26:13Either you consume it, or donate it, or it'll get destroyed.
26:16The most worrying part is that when the wealth is being destroyed, it should not destroy
26:20our next generation.
26:21So it is very, very important.
26:23And in India, we keep saying that Lakshmi teen generation ke baad tikte nahi hai.
26:28Actually it's not factually correct.
26:29We have seen in Japan, 1500 year old families, in USA, 200 year old family, in Europe, 500
26:35year old family.
26:36The biggest challenge I see is not market volatility or what happened to a certain category.
26:41The biggest challenge is I have seen many families don't have an investment policy or
26:46framework in place.
26:48It is one individual who will decide what is good for the family, totally too much dependent
26:53on the skill of a single individual, and that individual may have a blind spot.
26:58Key man risk.
26:59So it is very important, you should know that.
27:04Start involving your spouses, your kids in the decision making process.
27:08In the beginning, they won't understand anything, they'll be just plain listener.
27:12But it's very, very important.
27:13And I'll tell you why it is important.
27:15I'll give you one simple illustration.
27:19Many people in India do give money to their relatives and friends.
27:23And generally the person who's done well, people come to him for the money.
27:26And the money is given for three months, but you know, never comes back.
27:30So how do you control these kind of things?
27:32If it is in the hand of one individual and somebody approaches that individual, the money
27:35will be given.
27:36Yes.
27:37And we Indians are very emotional.
27:38We say help karna chahiye, kaam nahi aayenge toh kaap kaam aayenge musibat ke time.
27:42That is money lost for good error.
27:45So what one should do is very simple thing, frame an investment policy where your spouse
27:49and your kids are involved.
27:50So if your friend come, three of them will say no.
27:54If your spouse's friends come, three of you will say no.
27:57If your kid's friend will come, three of you will say no.
28:00So investment decision is not dependent on individual skill.
28:05And investment is not a selection process, but elimination process.
28:09Just keep that in mind.
28:10And on that very insightful note, Vijay, thanks so much for joining me on Money Wise.
28:15It's been an absolute pleasure bringing you this program.
28:17Hopefully it's insight that you can use.
28:20Do stay tuned.
28:21Lots more coming up over the course of the day.
28:23And this is NDTV Profit.