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Congress MP Gaurav Gogoi has rubbished allegations and claims that his wife, Elizabeth Colburn, has links with Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, saying the BJP has a habit of defaming people and mud-slinging and accused the party of running a "smear campaign".

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00:00:00Intro Music
00:00:21Mr. Doros Gogo
00:00:22Which side? Left or right?
00:00:26Intro Music
00:00:29What's really nice to eat in Parliament?
00:00:31My favourite is the Bhalla Papri Chaat.
00:00:33How much do you pay for it?
00:00:3430 rupees maybe.
00:00:36That's it.
00:00:37Mr. Gogo, you have a very rich political legacy.
00:00:39You're aware of that, right?
00:00:41I've learnt a lot of my values from my father.
00:00:44Interpretation that there are nights out within the party as well?
00:00:48No, not at all.
00:00:50Nonetheless, politics is by profession quite ruthless
00:00:53and you need to have a thick skin.
00:00:55That political view was that if you could survive in Congress,
00:00:58you could survive at you.
00:00:59And we all see Imanto Biswa Sharma
00:01:02for his words, for his actions.
00:01:05I think he's a man who can only stay in power
00:01:07because he's done so many crimes,
00:01:09he can't stay outside of power.
00:01:10You listen to Punjabi songs?
00:01:12Yeah, I love Punjabi songs.
00:01:14Having grown up in Delhi,
00:01:15I think many would, you know,
00:01:17I used to be part of my college Bhangra troop.
00:01:19You know, what's the term in Delhi?
00:01:21Tell me.
00:01:22You know who my father is.
00:01:24You know that, huh?
00:01:25Absolutely.
00:01:31So, Mr. Gugai, one would have thought that a third time MP would have had a bigger bungalow
00:01:35because you're entitled, aren't you?
00:01:37Preeti, I'm a simple man.
00:01:39I have simple needs.
00:01:41If the government wants to allot me a bungalow, they can.
00:01:44I'm quite happy and quite satisfied where I am right now.
00:01:48So, it's that you haven't asked or they haven't given it to you?
00:01:50Because you're entitled is all I'm saying.
00:01:52You know, third time MPs would usually in Delhi have a bigger bungalow.
00:01:55Well, it's for them to allot.
00:01:57So, they haven't.
00:01:58And as I said, I haven't asked as a third time MP.
00:02:02I'm quite satisfied where I am.
00:02:04It's, you know, I have very simple needs.
00:02:07Being from Assam, we don't have the kind of volume of guests and visitors
00:02:13that an MP from UP or Delhi or Haryana would have.
00:02:16And bungalows are also in Delhi cumbersome to maintain.
00:02:19You get monkeys.
00:02:20You've got unkept gardens.
00:02:23So, no grudges?
00:02:24Absolutely not.
00:02:25All right.
00:02:26And they haven't offered?
00:02:27I haven't asked.
00:02:29They haven't offered.
00:02:30Maybe because I haven't asked.
00:02:31Okay.
00:02:32All right.
00:02:33But welcome to Unpolitics, Gaurav Gogoi.
00:02:37And I'm sure you're used to these long, winding, very rich introductions.
00:02:41So, if you allow me, I'd like to ask you to introduce yourself to our listeners.
00:02:45Well, as I started with, I said, I'm quite simple.
00:02:48I'm quite focused.
00:02:50I'm quite dedicated to my work.
00:02:55And I try to, according to, you know, others, you know, create a balance between work and life.
00:03:02No talk of third time MP, political legacy with your father being the longest serving chief minister of Assam.
00:03:11None of that you want to speak of?
00:03:12Well, I think it's more about values.
00:03:14I'm sorry.
00:03:15I'll just say.
00:03:16And now being Assam Congress president.
00:03:18Well, you know, these responsibilities will come and go.
00:03:21What will remain steady is your ideology.
00:03:24What will remain steady are your family values.
00:03:27What will remain steady is your commitment to the people.
00:03:30And responsibilities will come.
00:03:32Responsibilities will go.
00:03:33Responsibilities will change.
00:03:35There will be losses.
00:03:36There will be victories.
00:03:37But it doesn't change why I got into this profession in the first place.
00:03:41Why did you get into this profession?
00:03:43This profession allows you to create deep, meaningful impact in society.
00:03:48Often that gets translated into development, which means building roads and flywares in hospitals.
00:03:55But as I realize more and more, as I've understood this medium or this vehicle more, which is that it really impacts society and people at a much more fundamental, deeper level.
00:04:07One of the things that I hear from people is that they're happy to see a strong, vibrant opposition because they don't want to live in an ecosystem of fear.
00:04:15They don't want to live in an environment of monopoly.
00:04:18They want the freedom to express their views.
00:04:20And I think that's that kind of sense that we're giving as an opposition, that there is hope to those who feel anxious.
00:04:28I think that's far more powerful than, of course, the important but necessary tangible work.
00:04:33But understanding this, that only those who are elected to power do have the ability to build those roads and flywares.
00:04:41But that doesn't mean those who sit in opposition have any less responsibility towards society.
00:04:46Mr. Kukwai, you have a very rich political legacy. You're aware of that, right?
00:04:52Yes, of course. I'm very grateful for that also.
00:04:54I've learnt a lot of my values from my father and I've learnt a lot about the Congress party.
00:05:01I learnt a lot about Assam from him.
00:05:05And I try to be a modern, younger version of him.
00:05:08What was the unpolitical view on your own party that you have learnt?
00:05:14And don't give me the role that it's a party which is built on an ideology, which is, you know, something, like I said, the unpolitical view.
00:05:22Well, the unpolitical view was that if you could survive in Congress, you could survive anywhere.
00:05:26Why did you say that?
00:05:28Well, you know, like any, I think, because it's such a democratic party where people just express their opinions, feel free, they feel free to criticize, they feel free to have a different view.
00:05:40So often you would have different points of views, your own views would get challenged in an open space.
00:05:46And you'll have to defend your own views and your beliefs as well.
00:05:50So, and I think some of our harshest critics of my position would be in my party saying that, you know, I don't agree with how you're working in Assam or I think this needs to change.
00:06:01But it all comes with, you know, as I said, from an intention that we want the party to be better.
00:06:06I mean, if you go back to the history, right from the earliest days of freedom struggle, you know, there were splits, there was, you know, different camps, different ideologies, different thoughts.
00:06:17So, I think maybe that's why he said that if you could survive in Congress, you could survive anywhere.
00:06:21So not the interpretation that there are knives out within the party as well? No.
00:06:26Not at all. Nonetheless, politics is by profession quite ruthless and you need to have a thick skin.
00:06:34So you have to keep that in mind.
00:06:36But more important, as I said, to begin with, is that while you understand the environment can be quite abrasive and confrontational,
00:06:44you have to realize what you're in there for because nobody wants to be in a confrontational environment.
00:06:49But you're willing to survive that, endure that and face that only because you have a far larger goal on your mind.
00:06:56You're very young, Mr. Gugoye, I would think, you know, 42.
00:07:00And you fought your first election much younger.
00:07:03Was this something that you always wanted to do was that go and follow your father's footsteps?
00:07:11Or was there a moment of epiphany which some of us do have that this is my destiny?
00:07:16No, I think I was very much interested in public service.
00:07:20That's something that, you know, that was a value which was very close to me.
00:07:25And that's why, you know, if I look back that I when I my first step into the world of, you know, into the professional world was actually a step in the corporate world.
00:07:36And, and I, I just realized after the initial few years that it wasn't giving me the kind of satisfaction that I wanted.
00:07:44And I think that was the epiphany that it was not about corporate, the world politics, which I mean corporate world for me, which at that to a young person was very exciting was reading a lot of management books.
00:07:56I was reading about CEOs, I was reading about how companies were turning around themselves through smarter strategies.
00:08:02You know, I was reading books on IBM and Pepsi and Apple.
00:08:05It was very inspirational for me.
00:08:07And my first dream was to be a consultant to work with companies to make their balance sheets look better or turn around or help them do something innovative.
00:08:17But when I realized that that wasn't giving me a sense of deep, meaningful satisfaction, and I took a step away and I left that world and I joined a small nonprofit and which worked with grassroots organizations across India.
00:08:32And it is when I went to a, to a village in, in Rajasthan for a week and worked and saw the, you know, the kind of work that smaller NGOs are doing and, and saw the kind of impact that they were having.
00:08:45Um, that gave me in 10 days, a much more meaningful, uh, joy that I had in the previous two years of the corporate world.
00:08:53And I think from then it just became an organic process, which initially started with grassroots activism, nonprofit, studying nonprofit management, doing internships in different organizations across the world with medical charities, with, uh, educational charities.
00:09:10And then actually realizing that politics gives you the medium to make those changes at a far wider scale.
00:09:17But only now after having sitting in 10 years in power, I realized that you have to be elected into power also, uh, if you want to implement those changes.
00:09:26But as I said, the being in opposition has also helped me realize that there is more than the tangible development that, um, that politicians have a role to play.
00:09:36So someone who studied, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong, public administration at the NYU, New York university.
00:09:43Uh, then you worked in the corporate world where I worked in the corporate world before you went to NYU.
00:09:48So Airtel first, then you went to NYU and then, uh, Parva was the NGO.
00:09:54So Airtel was the corporate, corporate, my corporate entry.
00:09:58Prava was my exit from the corporate world into nonprofit.
00:10:03And then the NYU was like, okay, let me understand this through an academic lens and deepen my understanding.
00:10:09And therefore, uh, you know.
00:10:11So when you walked into NYU, you knew that.
00:10:13Pretty much.
00:10:14That you were going to be a politician.
00:10:15At that time.
00:10:16No, no.
00:10:17At that time, I was still wanted to be in the nonprofit world.
00:10:19So from being in, from being the head of a private company at the time of NYU, where I wanted to be, was working in a World Bank project.
00:10:29Worked in the ADB, worked in a big, like maybe something like the Gates Foundation.
00:10:34And that's why I was arming myself with a degree to work, uh, essentially maybe with the Gates Foundation, World Bank or a big Indian, um, NGO.
00:10:42Um, Mr. Booker, do you, do you watch films?
00:10:45Bollywood interests you at all?
00:10:46Uh, Bollywood, uh, absolutely.
00:10:49Netflix, uh, always.
00:10:51I just finished watching The Last of Us, um, on, um, Apple TV.
00:10:56Uh, Bollywood, I, I, I still like the older, the, the, around the, the films that came around Gangs of Wasipur, Article 15.
00:11:04Right.
00:11:05The, the new ones, which are more about special effects and, you know, uh, like the Bahubali one too.
00:11:11It's just.
00:11:12That doesn't excite you.
00:11:13Uh, it doesn't.
00:11:14I mean, sometimes I wish I'd rather have time to go and watch the movies.
00:11:16You know, I grew up watching like Amar Akbar Anthony or a Kishore Kumar movie, like Half Ticket and, you know, Agni Pat, the older version.
00:11:24So new current favorites.
00:11:26In, in this current, in this current, actually, uh, I mean, I saw, I thought there was a movie in which Kriti Sanon is an air hostess
00:11:38and she plants a crew.
00:11:40Crew, I think.
00:11:41Maybe with Tabu and, uh, Kareena Kapoor, I think.
00:11:43Yeah.
00:11:44She's there and then.
00:11:45You like that one?
00:11:46Yeah, I think that was, that was smart.
00:11:47It was smart.
00:11:48And then, and, and the inspector who is that, who is also from Chandigarh, who's a singer, uh, who's just performed with Ed Sheeran.
00:11:55Ed Sheeran.
00:11:56He's the singer, Diljeet.
00:11:57Diljeet.
00:11:58Oh yeah.
00:11:59Diljeet Dosanj.
00:12:00Which film has you done?
00:12:01He's in Crew also.
00:12:02He's in Crew.
00:12:03Okay.
00:12:04I haven't seen the film, but okay.
00:12:05Um, any favorite actors?
00:12:06Uh, as I said, I, I do like Diljeet.
00:12:08He's a, you know, he has a good sense of comic.
00:12:11Also shares your politics somewhere.
00:12:13You might.
00:12:14I don't know.
00:12:15I don't, I don't.
00:12:16He might deny it.
00:12:17I, I don't know.
00:12:18I, I, I listen to his songs more than I watch his movies.
00:12:20You listen to Punjabi songs?
00:12:21Yeah.
00:12:22Yeah.
00:12:23Which one?
00:12:24Having grown up in Delhi, I think many would, you know, I used to be part of the, my college
00:12:28Bhangra troop.
00:12:29Really?
00:12:30You know how to do the Bhangra?
00:12:31Kind of.
00:12:32Better than the Bihu?
00:12:33Uh, well, the, now they're both the same.
00:12:36I think now I might do a Bihu better than Bhangra, but back in college, I was definitely doing
00:12:39the Bhangra more.
00:12:40I was the college choreographer, uh, for my, uh, choreography team.
00:12:44And, uh, yeah.
00:12:45So just being in Delhi.
00:12:46No, I hear you.
00:12:47Then having in, uh, you know, just at that time, it was all about Dalai.
00:12:52It was all about Daler Mehendi and, you know, whatever Jazzy Bee and all of that.
00:12:56You still listen to it?
00:12:57But now I start listening to, uh, Sidhu Musewala, some Punjabi rap.
00:13:01Oh Lord, that's a revelation.
00:13:03Okay.
00:13:04So that's just nice.
00:13:05Punjabi rap.
00:13:06And you get the words.
00:13:07Well, you get the sense of the words, right?
00:13:09You get a sense of words.
00:13:10In fact, like that's my aim in, in parliament also, that along with speaking in Hindi and
00:13:15English, I'm able to incorporate a little bit of Urdu and a little bit of Punjabi because,
00:13:19you know, some of the words, they have a richness that even Hindi doesn't capture.
00:13:23Um, there are some words in Urdu that, you know, which just when they, when they, when
00:13:27they get combined.
00:13:28Give me one line in Punjabi.
00:13:29Um, not bad, not bad.
00:13:34Okay.
00:13:35But, um, you know, talking about, uh, uh, Bollywood, um, what do you make of Nepal kids?
00:13:43And I hope you don't miss the irony in that.
00:13:45Well, I think India is a country of networks, right?
00:13:49We, we get our jobs through networking, you know, whether in any profession, business and,
00:13:56you know, and, and that's how, do you know someone who knows someone?
00:13:58Who knows someone?
00:13:59Who knows someone?
00:14:00It starts from getting, you know, your kid into school to getting your kid into college
00:14:06to get your first job.
00:14:07And, and then, and then, so just so, you know, some of them are extremely talented.
00:14:13I think, uh, Ranbir Kapoor is talented.
00:14:15I think Shadda Kapoor, uh, is talented.
00:14:18Um, and again, in the end you want talent, right?
00:14:21Uh, that's what's important.
00:14:23Why I said the irony is because you're an epochid.
00:14:26Sure.
00:14:27But as I said, I've, as I said, I'm quite grateful because I learned so much.
00:14:31I mean, where else, I mean, you know, you tell me having studied science, did my undergraduate
00:14:38in engineering, did my professional, my initial professional world in, in corporate world,
00:14:45in grassroots activism, NGOs, and having studied, where else would I've learned about political
00:14:50values, political ideologies, election management, working with grassroots workers, had my father
00:14:56not been there.
00:14:57And I think that's one of the key reasons why at, um, at 42, um, I'm both the deputy leader
00:15:04and a party president because I've managed to soak in a lot, uh, which initially would
00:15:09take a lifetime to understand.
00:15:11Uh, and I'm therefore, I'm quite grateful.
00:15:13And I, as I said, uh, I live by those values and I try to, uh, even though my father's not
00:15:18here, I try to ensure that those values still get represented through my work.
00:15:22You do, you know, in Delhi, you've grown up in Delhi, right?
00:15:25So in Delhi, uh, there was a term that one would call all the kids who, you know, who came
00:15:29from political families or, uh, bureaucracy, the Baba Log.
00:15:33Wait, did you know?
00:15:34You know, what's the term in Delhi, Priti?
00:15:36Goh, tell me.
00:15:37You know, you know that, huh?
00:15:40Absolutely.
00:15:41But in the, you know, but I-
00:15:42Did you use it?
00:15:43Hardly.
00:15:44Only- But you did.
00:15:45Only once when I got stopped by a traffic policeman.
00:15:47You used it.
00:15:48But they didn't care because it was somebody from Assam and, you know-
00:15:51Korn?
00:15:52People in Delhi.
00:15:53But people in Delhi like, 39, where is it?
00:15:56You know, you know, Assam, what is this?
00:15:58You know, if someone is Delhi, they respect them.
00:16:00But by and large, you know, I never fronted my, uh, my father's background.
00:16:04You know, that could get you into trouble on social media.
00:16:07Gaurud Gugur used his father's name with a traffic constable to get away with it.
00:16:10Well, I was in college then.
00:16:12And as I said, it didn't work.
00:16:14Uh, but, uh, but by and large, people who know me know that I've never
00:16:20fronted my father's identity because people would just treat you differently.
00:16:24So in fact, I used to often tell people that my father works in government and I would,
00:16:28you know, never reveal his name.
00:16:30And, and when people obviously as Indians, we're all curious.
00:16:32We want to know what your father is doing.
00:16:34And I just used to kind of block and stop that question.
00:16:37Um, so even, you know, where I was working, people wouldn't realize.
00:16:42Um, and I would naively defend like, yeah, I don't know him.
00:16:45You know, there's no connection because I just want to be taken for who I am and make my own identity.
00:16:50But Mr. Gugur, is there somewhere down the line an acceptance and, um, that there's a lot of privilege that,
00:16:56that came with the likes of you, the likes of Mr. Gandhi, who's in the Congress.
00:17:00And that's possibly also stemmed a fair amount of resentment, those who got it easier.
00:17:05It's a, it's a privilege and that weight of that privilege, I'm sure you've taken, you know, the last 10 years, uh, to carry.
00:17:12Do you understand that?
00:17:13The privilege, uh, is not to flaunt.
00:17:16The privilege is the responsibility.
00:17:18Because what you've been taught, you should not forget where you've come from.
00:17:22I, my father comes from a small village in Jodhar.
00:17:27And he was initially a student volunteer and he was a municipal counsellor in his first term.
00:17:33That's where he's comes from.
00:17:34That's where my roots are.
00:17:36My roots are in that town, uh, in Assam.
00:17:39Not in his, uh, you know, the last title that he held.
00:17:43Um, and as I said, the, the privilege is, uh, of having learned from your parents.
00:17:50And the privilege is those values that you've learned and the, and the wisdom.
00:17:54So I think with privilege comes responsibility.
00:17:56Um, and it's not something to front.
00:17:58Nobody's blaming you for it.
00:17:59You know, this is, this is where you come from.
00:18:01So there's, I'm sure.
00:18:02But do you accept that there could be resentment among the masses in India to look at some who got it easier?
00:18:08And that initially the BJP also went with it.
00:18:12No.
00:18:13Dynasty, you know, there was.
00:18:15Absolutely.
00:18:16People have the right to feel that, uh, that they have slogged.
00:18:20They've worked very hard and they've not achieved, uh, their goal.
00:18:24Yet someone who comes from a privileged background has reached that milestone earlier.
00:18:28I think it's very right for people to feel that.
00:18:32Um, and as I said that at the end, we are all responsible for our own journeys.
00:18:37Uh, and I'm responsible for the journey that I am on.
00:18:40Well, you're right.
00:18:41And, you know, we're also living in a country which is of extremes because, uh, uh, you know, there, there are so many that come from so little.
00:18:46Yeah.
00:18:47And understandably those emotions get leveraged politically as well.
00:18:51But it's, uh, it is good to know because you accept it and you understand it and you do understand that you have to maybe work harder.
00:18:59Yeah.
00:19:00As I said, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm answerable, uh, to myself and, and, and, and to what, uh, my, my, the goals that I've set out to be for myself.
00:19:13Um, and the, in the, in the, on this road, there would be people who at some point would support us at some point would be angry with us.
00:19:20And they are justifiably so in doing, I mean, they will be justified in doing so.
00:19:25I don't think we'll always have, we'll carry the affections of people, but as long as I stay committed and I remember what I got into this, I don't get carried away by successes.
00:19:35I don't get dismayed by failures.
00:19:38Um, as I said, I'm answerable to myself.
00:19:40I, in the end, I have to look myself in the mirror and I, and remember that, do I, do I, you know, do I remember what, what I learned?
00:19:47Do I remember why I got here?
00:19:49Um, and I think that's important.
00:19:51Um, and I, again, I, I completely understand people where they come from, what they might feel.
00:19:57Um, um, and whether it's resentment, whether it's any other form of feeling, I completely understand it.
00:20:04Um, do you remember ever, do you have, because, you know, when we go back and look into our childhood, there is always a moment here or there that you remember.
00:20:11Uh, do you remember, or later on in life, when you, because you spoke of, you know, people getting angry, your father getting angry.
00:20:18Your father getting angry at you.
00:20:19Getting angry at me.
00:20:20Yeah.
00:20:21Yeah.
00:20:22About something.
00:20:23My earliest memories are me making fun of him, uh, because his Hindi was not that great.
00:20:28Yours is?
00:20:29Well, I grew up in Delhi.
00:20:30He did not.
00:20:31Right.
00:20:32So he came to Delhi much later.
00:20:33So while we were, you know, uh, in a North Avenue flat, uh, close, let's say close to Gold Market for those who don't know where North Avenue is.
00:20:41So we would go to Gold Market.
00:20:42He was a, maybe at that time, a second or third term MP.
00:20:45We would go to, you know, get a haircut, um, for 10 rupees in one of those alleys of, uh, Gold Market.
00:20:52And, uh, and he would speak in broken Hindi and me being, you know, very young.
00:20:56I was maybe like seven, eight years old.
00:20:58So my earliest memories are me coming back and telling my mother.
00:21:02The Gol Gappas at Gold Market.
00:21:03Did you eat those?
00:21:04Gol Gappas are my favorite.
00:21:05Right.
00:21:06The Kaleva.
00:21:07Yeah, yeah.
00:21:08The Kaleva Gol Gappas.
00:21:09Kaleva Lassi is very good.
00:21:10The Gold Market for Bengal, uh, Bengali sweets is very good.
00:21:12I'm a big foodie.
00:21:13Ah.
00:21:14So thank God I'm in.
00:21:15Don't look at your workout then.
00:21:16Well, uh, I don't eat as much.
00:21:19Now I, I think it's now it's about quality and not quantity.
00:21:22So I make sure that I eat.
00:21:24So you remember making fun of your father then?
00:21:26Yeah.
00:21:27Like I remember going, coming back home, you know, imitating him in front of my mother, my, my sister,
00:21:32and we would all just have love and, and he would also appreciate.
00:21:35You know.
00:21:36Never get angry at you.
00:21:37What's there to get angry about?
00:21:38Has he ever gotten angry at you about something?
00:21:40Maybe later on when you were in politics?
00:21:42Uh, no, actually not.
00:21:45I mean, he was always like make your own mistakes.
00:21:48Was he disappointed with you ever?
00:21:50No.
00:21:51I mean, I, in fact, I, I would again say he would, he was secretly hoping that I was joined
00:21:55politics, but never would voice that or express that or demand that or urge that.
00:22:01So I think, um, uh, when I eventually did, uh, join politics where I thought like, okay,
00:22:06now I feel right that I want to, you know, take, take the membership of the Congress party.
00:22:10I thought he was secretly very proud.
00:22:11And, you know, I think he was going around telling everyone like, see, I told you so the
00:22:15minute he joined public service, I knew three, four years later, he'll come to politics.
00:22:20So I think he was secretly proud.
00:22:22And I think had he been here, he was at one point the president of the state Congress,
00:22:27a position which I'm holding now.
00:22:28I think he would have been very proud to see me now also.
00:22:31I think he'd also be very proud with the last election that you won.
00:22:34Well, absolutely.
00:22:35I think he started his elections from Jorah, although he switched to another constituency
00:22:41from where I and my uncle also fought from, but circumstances were such that there was delimitation
00:22:50done only in Assam and out of the 14 Lok Sabha seats, only my seat was split into two.
00:22:56Everybody else who had very minor modifications.
00:22:58So I had to shift to a new seat to my father's hometown, but his original first Lok Sabha seat.
00:23:04And I think the way, one of the reasons for my victory, it would be the people's goodwill towards my late father.
00:23:11Was there disappointment in the family?
00:23:13And why I say that is because it's in traditional Indian terms with who you married.
00:23:19Was there disappointment at all because you married a British citizen while politically
00:23:24many would have thought you'd bring home a nice home girl?
00:23:27You know what?
00:23:28That's sometimes I'm very stubborn.
00:23:31So there was resentment in the family?
00:23:33Not resentment.
00:23:34No, I'm telling you something else.
00:23:36Okay, sorry.
00:23:37So, the only advice they thought, because I got married in 2013 October,
00:23:43and elections were in 2014 April, right?
00:23:46My first election.
00:23:47So I said like, why not, you know, get married after your elections?
00:23:51So at least this would not be an electoral issue and this would not be a distraction
00:23:56and people would talk about what you've been doing in the constituency for the past few years.
00:24:01And me being the stubborn, you know, person that I am sometimes, I said, well, now I'll just do the opposite.
00:24:08You know, I was flexible, but now that you told me so.
00:24:11Who told you?
00:24:12My parents or my mother, but I think maybe my father through my mother because the mother often plays the messenger between the father and the son.
00:24:21So I don't know.
00:24:22But then I said, well, now what, you know, are we going to get married before?
00:24:27And then she's going to come to Assam and she's not going to remain hidden.
00:24:31She's going to be, you know, visible in public.
00:24:34People are going to see who I am.
00:24:36And if they want to accept me for who I am, they will accept me.
00:24:39And my understanding was that people would actually welcome us.
00:24:44And that's essentially what happened.
00:24:46But other than that, besides any normal parents' anxiety towards who your son is dating, I don't think there was anything beyond that.
00:24:56But, you know, you speak of, you know, a little bit of apprehension from your parents of wanting to get, you know, maybe marry after your election.
00:25:04What did she think of all of this?
00:25:06Because she's a British citizen.
00:25:08She's, did she know that you wanted to join politics and this is what she was in for?
00:25:13Well, actually, sometimes I blame her for joining me joining politics because she was interested in politics far before me.
00:25:19Having grown up in the UK, she used to be a young member of the Labour Party then.
00:25:26And she'd done some political canvassing from local MPs.
00:25:30And we started dating each other when I was, you know, looking at World Bank, Asian Development Bank.
00:25:36So staying over, so when we first got to know each other, I said, yeah, never mind.
00:25:40Don't worry, I'm not going into politics.
00:25:42You told her that?
00:25:43Yeah, I said, I'm going to do public work.
00:25:44That's classic men.
00:25:45Well, you know, maybe because we don't know, we don't know where we are going.
00:25:50We don't, we don't know our minds and sometimes women can.
00:25:52Sometimes you just don't want to give out too much information.
00:25:54Well, actually, no, as I said.
00:25:55Would she have married you if you told her that I want to be a politician?
00:25:58Hopefully, because it was, it should not be the career that should, you know, bring us together, bring us apart, but, you know, for the people that we are.
00:26:08But then, you know, she said that, yeah, okay, fine, you know, by the way, you know, I really like this political series.
00:26:15And, you know, you are, I was going to work on a farm in the US for three, four months, just to learn about how American NGOs work on rural livelihoods with animals and NGOs.
00:26:30So she introduced me to this series called The West Wing, which, you know, is actually shows politics in a very positive light, where all politicians are good politicians, where all political debate is about education and environment.
00:26:45And then, you know, and that kind of changed my view towards politics.
00:26:49So sometimes I, you know, said that, you know, had you not shown me that Netflix series, maybe I wouldn't have joined.
00:26:56But, you know, that's just a small story between us and, but she's very supportive otherwise.
00:27:01But did you have any inkling that she'd be in the middle of this massive political storm where today, and it took you a while because you never really, and why I say that is,
00:27:12her identity, her affiliations have become a political point, especially in Assam, which has been raised constantly, possibly every second press conference by the incumbent chief minister, Mr. Imanta Biswasarma, of how she actually, and these are grave allegations, Mr. Gogoi, that she was part of the ISI, she was ISI trained, and it's all a Pakistan propaganda, you don't say anything for a very long time.
00:27:39And I think the first press conference was after you became Assam Congress president.
00:27:44Would she have wanted you, A, what do you make of these allegations?
00:27:48Because these are, you know, in the literal term, and not just rhetoric, anti-national in nature.
00:27:54Well, what would the BJP be without defamation and mudslinging?
00:27:58You know, it's their bread and butter.
00:28:00Have they not cast aspersions on Congress politicians before?
00:28:04They've accused someone of murder, they've accused someone of being anti-national.
00:28:08This is bread and butter, propaganda, smear campaigns, mudslinging, defamation, you know, disregarding a woman's character is second nature.
00:28:22Like in nature, we've, you know, we go back and, you know, they've called a former prime minister, Gungi Guria, you know, they've used terms like Jersey cow, they've used terms like 50 crore girlfriend, they used terms with colluding with Chinese Communist Party.
00:28:35So this is the nature of Indian politics, which is extremely common.
00:28:39Is it life being labelled as an ISI agent? Because that, you know, whatever you make of it personally, but it has political implications in your state?
00:28:47Well, I think people are smarter. Why negate the wisdom of people?
00:28:52Why negate that, you know, journalists like you, if there were some truth to this, would have uncovered by now?
00:28:59People are smarter, people are wiser.
00:29:02And I feel like, you know, these are smear campaigns, which kind of hide an insecurity, a deeper insecurity within the BJP.
00:29:12And in order to mask that, you know, they do this smear campaigns.
00:29:16So I don't, of course, my wife and both my mother were people who were quite close to power.
00:29:24My mother was the wife of a chief minister for 15 years, but always stood away from public life.
00:29:31And that's what my wife likes to do also, which is to stand away from the public limelight.
00:29:36And she'd rather, you know, do her job. She was a, she's a profession.
00:29:40She's a professional. She's a salaried professional.
00:29:42She's a, you know, a well-respected person in her own professional community.
00:29:47So I think it's just being dragged into this public mudslinging is what no partner would like of a politician.
00:29:57But this is something that politicians and political partners and families of politicians have to face.
00:30:02And I'm glad my mother's here to kind of, you know, support both of us at this time.
00:30:08So what made you come out and then defend her after you became the USAM Congress president?
00:30:15I would say I stated the facts, which were not there in the previous, my briefings to the media,
00:30:26because there was a panchayat elections going on.
00:30:28There's all of this was going on.
00:30:30Which you did very badly in.
00:30:31Which we did very badly in, which I agree.
00:30:34So, as I said, during a panchayat election, we wanted our campaign, my party, our party wanted our campaign not to be around these allegations,
00:30:43which are focused on my personal life and my personal travel history from 14, 15 years ago,
00:30:48where my wife was working, you know, 12, 13 years ago.
00:30:51We wanted to focus on our issues, which is what the people of Assam face in their day to day life in the villages,
00:30:57because it's a panchayat elections.
00:30:59And if they wanted to focus on their issues, let them.
00:31:02And therefore, we, you know, for us, at least it was a conscious strategy to not get into this.
00:31:08The personal.
00:31:09Yeah.
00:31:10And then once results are out, you know, we knew this responsibility was coming on.
00:31:14Right.
00:31:15We laid out the facts.
00:31:16But Mr. Gugoy, because the results were so unfavorable to your own political party.
00:31:21And was that the reason you realized that it had backfired if you're not speaking publicly and clearing the air, for say,
00:31:28because the other side did go down, you know, the wire with it.
00:31:33Well, that's their choice.
00:31:35But, you know, when after the results, we visited different parts of Assam, my leaders visited different parts of Assam.
00:31:41And, you know, what we found actually was that the individual benefit schemes that any incumbent government gives to beneficiaries, especially women.
00:31:55This is an interesting trend that we are seeing that come a panchayat election, when governments don't change,
00:32:01neither at the state nor at the center, an individual beneficiary getting, you know, monthly cash faces a greater risk of voting against the government.
00:32:14Because immediately, you know, they face the threat of being left out of that monthly handout from the government in the next month.
00:32:25And I think that threat, that fear worked to a far greater extent that we would have realized or predicted or assumed.
00:32:34And I think that's something that causes for concern that if that's if government officials are literally going around with party workers saying that,
00:32:43listen, the BJP government give you your house, give you your monthly cash handout, and if you vote somewhere else, it's going to go.
00:32:52Are we having a fair democratic election at the grassroots level or not?
00:32:59And I think that's what we felt. And as I said, this was an issue. We stated the facts, there's some imaginary 10 September, and they have their own story, some old Kahini.
00:33:11And I said that, you know, it looks like as if they're coming up with some C grade Bollywood script and people are not going to fall for that.
00:33:18Well, the sad part is that, Mr. Gugwai, sometimes C grade Bollywood fiction cracks the box office.
00:33:24And an election like you pointed out could be because of policy decisions that you make is also then bolstered with this other line of narrative.
00:33:32And you've stayed away from it. So, you know, but you know what, in fact, actually, I've thanked the chief minister.
00:33:39Why is that?
00:33:40Because he's just showed his insecurity. He's just exposed his cards. And I think that, you know, by one of the reasons why the party gave me this responsibility, because he betrayed his insecurity.
00:33:52And I think that was one of his intentions, also the BJP's intention, which is to create some kind of doubt amongst my party leadership with respect to my future within state politics, given that elections are 10 months from now.
00:34:07And I'm quite grateful to my party leadership for backing me. And as I said, people, you know, trust the wisdom of people.
00:34:16If there's one thing I learned from the last Jharkhand election, if there's one thing that I learned from, you know, from my Jorahat elections, that sometimes people are smarter than politicians.
00:34:26Would you want to, you know, maybe delve a little deeper into the charges that have been made by Mr. Himanta Biswasarma on your wife, you know, practically being an ISI agent, her working with Pakistan, you yourself going across Pakistan.
00:34:41And I think he's already pitched the coming election in 10 months as a fight between India and Pakistan.
00:34:48Now, you might find it funny, but you don't know what it tracks with.
00:34:51Well, let me delve deeper into the ludicrous charges of the story, which is that he's saying, as per the chief minister, that government of India, you know, is there was an Indian citizen who went across the border 12, 13 years ago, you know, we signed and got the stamp of the border police.
00:35:19went across the border, we got trained by ISI, then we came back also, right.
00:35:28And we again, gave a stamp, we said, yes, we've come back from Pakistan.
00:35:33And now, I got elected.
00:35:36And I'm sitting in parliament for the last 10, 11 years, and they have no clue only.
00:35:43Either I'm the most brilliant agent, or we have the one of the most, you know, non performing intelligence agencies.
00:35:51So these are, you know, so what what can I do if they want to focus on this?
00:35:56Did your wife work closely with Pakistan in any NGOs there or anything at all?
00:36:01Yes, she's a climate change professional. She worked on an international South Asia program, which had work in India, Nepal, and Pakistan.
00:36:10And she was in Pakistan between 2011 2012 for a year, and then was then moved to India in 2013.
00:36:202015. And in 2015, joined a new NGO, and has been working ever since.
00:36:25So what's the conversation back home when all of this is going on?
00:36:29Well, the conversation...
00:36:30The kids are too young to know so much.
00:36:32Well, the kids are young, but you know, in school, everything news travels, right?
00:36:36Oh, yeah.
00:36:37So everything travels, rumors travels, allegations travel.
00:36:41So...
00:36:42Have they been asked?
00:36:43Well, I'm sure they've heard some version.
00:36:45Have they asked you?
00:36:46Yeah, they've asked me some version of it.
00:36:49So, you know, it's something new for us.
00:36:52And we're learning how to deal with it as a family.
00:36:54And as I said, this comes in politics.
00:36:59And that's why you need to have a thick skin and a strong family.
00:37:04Do you guys, your wife, and you still get that time out in midst of all of this?
00:37:08Do you have date nights?
00:37:10Well, with young kids.
00:37:11It's a very urban concept.
00:37:13I think rather than going out for a date night or a dinner, I think she would rather have
00:37:20me come home and share the load of, share the responsibility of looking after the kids.
00:37:24Hold on.
00:37:25And that's what I would also like to do, which is to come and be a father.
00:37:31She sounds quite tired of you, Mr. Gugwe.
00:37:34I think she keeps me grounded.
00:37:36She keeps you grounded.
00:37:37And with all these allegations that are, you know, swirling all around you, I think you've got to give it to her then.
00:37:43Absolutely.
00:37:44With her as well.
00:37:45Absolutely.
00:37:46Because it doesn't involve you. It involves her.
00:37:47Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:37:48I mean, there's a toughness that is there and which I respect and admire.
00:37:55The last time she camped and I was watching a small clip.
00:37:58She likes to keep private and she, but she campaigns for you.
00:38:02And it's difficult to find those one odd clips somewhere.
00:38:04She was speaking Assamese.
00:38:05She knows how to speak Assamese?
00:38:07Well, she understands it.
00:38:09Okay.
00:38:10She took Assamese classes.
00:38:11Okay.
00:38:12After moving to India, she took both Hindi and Assamese classes.
00:38:15So far more fluent in Hindi, less fluent in Assam because she's not spending as much time in Assam as in Delhi.
00:38:22But she understands Assamese and, you know, you just learn there's one or two basic lines.
00:38:27But I think the last time she campaigned, I think it just took a toll on her.
00:38:33And I think that was back in 2018, maybe.
00:38:39I think we had Panchayat elections then.
00:38:41I think that took a toll.
00:38:42And since then, you know, she has to stay away from it all.
00:38:46Kind of.
00:38:47And now, as I said, with children, you know, it's far more important things to do.
00:38:51Fair enough.
00:38:52Are you going to, you know, catch a break?
00:38:55It's summer vacation time for the kids.
00:38:58No breaks for you?
00:38:59Well, now with elections 10 months away and we haven't been given this new responsibility of the state president.
00:39:06Unfortunately, no breaks for me.
00:39:08It's all hands on deck and every day is important.
00:39:12Okay.
00:39:13I think the BJP's made that happen.
00:39:15No breaks for any politicians.
00:39:16It's a 24-7 job.
00:39:18Well, also, as I said, maybe I wouldn't have got this responsibility if they didn't start this smear campaign.
00:39:24So I'm quite grateful.
00:39:25I've publicly thanked the chief minister for giving so much time and attention to me.
00:39:30Speaking of the chief minister, when he was part of the Congress, way back in 2013, there was one statement when he started pulling away from your political, from the Congress, where he said that he knew he was getting weaker within the Congress.
00:39:45And the chief minister, your father, stopped liking him is because Gaurav Gugwai entered politics.
00:39:52So once again, you know, insinuating that it was going to be a family affair and he needed to step aside.
00:39:58Which just shows his obsession since that day.
00:40:01He's just been using my name and creating false narratives around me ever since my first entry into politics.
00:40:08I mean, knowing my father, you know, he would be the first person to oppose my rise in my party.
00:40:13And he's often said that in public also, that if anybody promotes my son into party before he's ready, I'll be the first one to oppose him.
00:40:23And again, that's my values. And everybody who knows my father knows that.
00:40:29In fact, if anybody was the natural successor, it was him.
00:40:32But again, just to mask the investigations that was going around at that time with Sharada, with Lewis Berger, that he had to appear in the CBI court in Calcutta.
00:40:43There were arrests. The BJP was, you know, publishing a booklet saying that the first person to arrest would be him once we come to power.
00:40:52You know, so just to mask that, that he had to compromise politically, ideologically, which is not the first time also.
00:41:01He started from regional politics and then he was, you know, in a tough situation.
00:41:05And that's why he left regional politics to get into Congress and again found himself in a sticky situation and had to go to the BJP.
00:41:12But I become a narrative for him to wield. But as I said, that's since then, to the way my constituency got delimited, to the way they all camped in Jorahat, the amount of money they spent to this.
00:41:27For me to hear these kind of false narratives from the mouth of the chief minister is nothing new. And I know how to face it.
00:41:33How was your relationship with him then when he was part of your partner?
00:41:36Nothing. I respect all my seniors. I looked upon him as someone who's a rising star within Assam Congress.
00:41:42I looked upon him as someone that my father defended despite everybody being against him.
00:41:48And I wanted to learn. That was my initial days into politics.
00:41:51And I wanted to learn from everybody. I wanted to even shadow him.
00:41:54And I would often say that, listen, I want to travel to your constituency to see what kind of work that you've done.
00:41:59Because I just said, I want to learn. And what I felt from my days of working in grassroots, with grassroots NGO, there's no better way of learning.
00:42:11You had no problem working under him as chief minister, if he had ever.
00:42:14Well, if he, I mean, if he is dynamic, if he's progressive, you know, and he would remain a staunch Congress, secular politician, who knows where he would have been.
00:42:27But, and this is where I credit Mr. Gandhi, Rahul Gandhi, because there was a time when there was a split within the party.
00:42:34And Mr. Rahul Gandhi had to make a choice between supporting a statesman like Tarun Gogoiji and a politician like Imanto Bishwa Sharma.
00:42:45And at that time, I think Rahul Gandhiji made the right choice.
00:42:48And we all see Imanto Bishwa Sharma for his words, for his actions.
00:42:54And there's no inch of any real Congress ideology in him.
00:43:00I think he's a man who can only stay in power because he's done so many crimes.
00:43:04He can't stay outside of power. And therefore, he's ideologically bankrupt and flexible.
00:43:10And tomorrow, if the BJP leaves power, he'll be the first one to ditch them and join whichever party is in power.
00:43:17Mr. Imanto Bishwa Sharma says that, you know, see, there was a point because that I had made in 2013 that I was practically sidelined with the coming in of Mr. Gaurav Gogoi into politics.
00:43:28And on a flight last month, I was sitting next to the then Congress president who you, you know, took over from Mr. Bupen Bora.
00:43:38And I told him that within one month, you're going to lose your presidency of the Congress.
00:43:44And at that time, as per Mr. Sarma, Mr. Bora had laughed and said that's not happening.
00:43:49But then he said, I predicted it. See, it happened.
00:43:52Well, maybe he has a crystal ball. And therefore, even now, that's why he's getting scared.
00:43:57But for me, Preeti, I started my career in the Congress party first as a media panelist.
00:44:02I used to go on TV shows and defend my party.
00:44:05And I understood that TV debates were something, you know, had become much more hostile.
00:44:10And, you know, it took something for me to learn.
00:44:12For a media panelist, I became a spokesperson within the party.
00:44:16My first job was within in the organizational work was as a AICC screening member in the elections of Himachal Pradesh and Karnataka,
00:44:27or AICC observer if there was a caste based violence in Rajasthan.
00:44:32From there, you know, my party promoted me to being the AICC in charge of West Bengal, of Andaman.
00:44:42Within the party, I was merely a whip.
00:44:45And then subsequently, you know, they elevated me to CWC member and a deputy leader.
00:44:50So that was my trajectory ever since 2013-14.
00:44:55You know, as I said, in the state of Assam, I was very much a constituency politician.
00:45:00I really wanted to understand and work with my constituency.
00:45:04I would not even go out of my constituency.
00:45:07So, you know, that's his version.
00:45:11What's Mr. Bhupen Bora's version?
00:45:13Well, what Bhupen Bora has recently said that, you know, that, and I, first of all, I've thanked him many times for his leadership in the last four years.
00:45:22He's taken a, you know, when they first took on the mantle of party president, he broke off the ties with AIUDF.
00:45:28Congress largely had avoided tying up with AIUDF, Maula Najmal Sahib's party.
00:45:34But in 2021, we had tied up with the AIUDF.
00:45:37And then ever since he took over, you know, he just broke off the alliance.
00:45:41I supported him.
00:45:42And since then, you know, when even when Rahul Gandhi started his yatra from Kanya Kumari, we did our own yatra and we did very well.
00:45:50So I think he's fulfilled the responsibility of state party president very well.
00:45:55And I've thanked him.
00:45:56And he's also been very supportive.
00:45:59And he said that, you know, we'll all be working together.
00:46:03And that's that's our goal.
00:46:05Our goal is to work towards the next state of election, next state elections, because people of Assam don't want to live in an atmosphere of fear, insecurity, corruption and intimidation.
00:46:16And I think it's our responsibility is to, you know, bring back democracy, the right to criticize the freedom of speech and create that sense of hope.
00:46:29That's so much that is so much needed.
00:46:31The AIUDF and Mr. Rajmal says neither Hindus will vote for you.
00:46:36And he, I think, was looking at some visuals of you participating in Sameed functions, nor will Muslims.
00:46:41Oh, that's his, he's welcome to say what he has.
00:46:46I am someone who really likes going to different religious places and observing the norms, which is at that religious place.
00:46:59Are you religious?
00:47:00I am religious.
00:47:02I am also spiritual.
00:47:04I pray regularly.
00:47:05To who?
00:47:06As I said, to everyone, as I said, you know, I growing up, for some reason, I would, I would, you know, I don't, I don't know where that comes from.
00:47:15But I would, I would pray to Guru Nanak Sahib.
00:47:18I would, you know, pray to, you know, to go to a church, because essentially, the prayer is the same, which is to be a better person, which is to have a better world.
00:47:29And it's only the form which is changing.
00:47:32But I would, I would love to go to, you know, Guru Bangla Sahib Gudwara or the Sacred Heart Cathedral.
00:47:38You know, go to Kalibari Mandir in your gold market, or, you know, go to a mosque in Assam.
00:47:47So that's who I am.
00:47:48So that's who I am.
00:47:49And again, you know, people of Assam, I'm transparent.
00:47:52And it's for people of Assam to decide, I'm not going to change my beliefs as per the leader of some political party.
00:47:58And I don't need their certificate.
00:48:00Are you more spiritual than religious?
00:48:02Can't say.
00:48:03Maybe, maybe not.
00:48:05I've done Vipassana.
00:48:07I've stayed in an ashram in Rishikesh.
00:48:10I think Vipassana is overrated.
00:48:12Do you think it worked for you?
00:48:14For different strokes for different folks, right?
00:48:17What worked for you?
00:48:18It did.
00:48:19It did?
00:48:20Yeah.
00:48:21I mean, I tried Reiki first.
00:48:22Reiki didn't work.
00:48:23Didn't work.
00:48:24Reiki didn't work.
00:48:25Vipassana did.
00:48:26And I've done all other forms of, you know, because the kind of work that I was doing in my previous NGO was leadership work.
00:48:31And leadership work is all about personality and, you know, bringing out the best of yourself and therefore overcoming your own.
00:48:38Do you believe in a higher being?
00:48:39Absolutely.
00:48:40I do believe in a divine being.
00:48:43Is the higher being male or female?
00:48:46Why does it have to have a gender?
00:48:47I'm asking.
00:48:48It's a power.
00:48:49It's a power.
00:48:50Absolutely.
00:48:51No God per se you look at.
00:48:52No.
00:48:53Again, God is the form through which you worship that, you know.
00:48:57It's the ritual and it's the form.
00:49:00There is a higher being because essentially the prayer doesn't change, you know.
00:49:06When was the last religious, you know, it could be anything.
00:49:10It could be a function or a prayer or a moment that you had, which wasn't spiritual, but religious in nature.
00:49:17Well, just three days ago, I took charge as state president in Guwahati.
00:49:21And I went to Mahakamakkhya Mandir.
00:49:22Yeah.
00:49:23Yeah.
00:49:24And yeah, it was both the reception from the local temple priests and the kind of power that you feel when you go to Mahakamakkhya.
00:49:34It's just, there's something there.
00:49:37And, you know, I go to certain temples and they offer you either a ring or some vibhuti or a cloth, a sacred cloth.
00:49:51And if I find that I've connected to that, I hold on to it and I keep it with myself.
00:49:56The thread that you're wearing on your hand?
00:49:58This thread comes from an ethnic group in Assam.
00:50:03It's the Moran community and they have their own priest.
00:50:06They have their own ritual and visited.
00:50:09I visited that priest, head priest, let's say, maybe a few weeks ago.
00:50:17My father was like that also.
00:50:19Before going to cast his vote, he would, you know, he would go to a church, a gudwara, a temple and a mosque.
00:50:27And therefore, you know, when I remember when during his funeral rites, we did the same, follow the same ceremony.
00:50:37When we took his dead body to the funeral pyre.
00:50:40Before that, we took the body to an Assamese temple or a namghar is what we say, to a temple, to a church, to a mosque.
00:50:50And then we took the body to the final crematorium.
00:50:54Is it too personal to ask you?
00:50:56Because, you know, there's always that one moment before you say goodbye.
00:50:59You know, it could be anything, you know.
00:51:01Is it too personal to ask you that moment with your father?
00:51:04Well, he was suffering from COVID.
00:51:07And then doctors tried valiantly for two and a half moments, for two and a half months.
00:51:13And I think at one point they had to give up.
00:51:16And I think that's when you see the body and you know the spirit is slowly fading, is when I said goodbye.
00:51:27Anything else?
00:51:28Is there a promise you made?
00:51:30Was there anything that you said to him?
00:51:33Or you gave him permission to leave?
00:51:35I didn't give him permission.
00:51:36I thanked him for being a father.
00:51:39But before any tough moment, I remember him.
00:51:42I think remembering him gives me courage and strength.
00:51:46And I saw the most powerful, had the most powerful experience of that, which is right before I gave the no confidence speech on Manipur inside parliament.
00:51:58I was initially told I was going to be the second speaker.
00:52:01And then 10 minutes before I was told I was the first speaker.
00:52:04So I walked inside the parliament.
00:52:07It was all packed.
00:52:0810 minutes ago, I was relaxed.
00:52:10Now I'm like going to give one of the biggest speeches on behalf of the India Alliance.
00:52:14Everybody's there except for the prime minister.
00:52:17And you literally had like, I wouldn't say butterflies in your stomach.
00:52:22You had like elephants walking around in your stomach.
00:52:26And took a moment to remember him, took a moment to remember God.
00:52:30And then went on to partake in a life changing moment for me.
00:52:35Do you think there's a fair amount of criticism.
00:52:37Do you think Rahul Gandhi's speeches in parliament could be better prepared?
00:52:40I think the, you know, what he's saying, if, if people go beyond, you know, the form and listen to what he's saying, there's so much constructive discussion that can happen, which would be good for our country.
00:52:58I mean, you know, he was talking about in his last speech in parliament about the importance of drones.
00:53:05And we've seen that in the Russia Ukraine conflict.
00:53:07We saw that in the India Pakistan conflict.
00:53:10So, you know, there's just so much, I mean, when I hear his speeches, the kind, you know, what the themes that he lay out.
00:53:20I mean, look at the, look at the fact that government of India is doing the caste census right now.
00:53:24Look at the fact that government of India is talking about the constitution right now.
00:53:28Prime Minister Modi ji bows down to the constitution.
00:53:31So I think there's some very powerful themes which speak at a much deeper level to those sections of society who feel underrepresented, who feel that they are not being given a space in today's India.
00:53:45And he's speaking to their aspirations and anxieties and he's speaking to them and championing them.
00:53:51And he's speaking of an alternative economic model of India, which is not dominated by monopolies, but is far more decentralized.
00:54:00Wealth is decentralized.
00:54:02And I think that's a very powerful subjects and themes which need constructive debate and discussion so that we can course correct the path on which India is.
00:54:13Mr. Gogo, I admit with what you're saying, great themes, but you also, do you admit that themes don't make great speeches on the floor of the parliament?
00:54:21You need to have a little more research.
00:54:23You need, do you agree or do you think you just cannot criticize Mr. Rahul Ghan?
00:54:26I think the ideas are the most powerful element of the speech.
00:54:29I might say the most fanciest of things, but there is nothing deeper than I'm just putting on makeup.
00:54:36Right. And I might say some of the most, you know, most deepest, thoughtful, thought provoking things.
00:54:45And I might just lay out in a very simple, plain spoken fashion.
00:54:48My father used to speak like that.
00:54:49He used to speak about climate change as if, you know, as if there were two people in sitting in, in a, on a charpai somewhere.
00:54:57And I think that's what's important. I think some people in today's 22nd reels prefer form over content.
00:55:07I'm someone who prefers, prefers content over form.
00:55:10Okay. You work very closely with Mr. Gandhi, you know, usually in parliament.
00:55:14What's really nice to eat in parliament?
00:55:16In this parliament?
00:55:17Yeah, yeah. The new one.
00:55:19The chaat.
00:55:20The chaat.
00:55:21What is the chaat?
00:55:22My favorite is the Bhalla Papri chaat.
00:55:24How much do you pay for it?
00:55:2530 rupees maybe.
00:55:26That's it?
00:55:27Yeah.
00:55:2830 rupees.
00:55:2930 rupees.
00:55:30And that's your Bhalla Papri.
00:55:31Bhalla Papri.
00:55:32That's the nice one.
00:55:33That's the, that's the easy go-to snack.
00:55:35That's the comfort food that I need.
00:55:37I think that comes from having grown up in Delhi.
00:55:39And you want just something light.
00:55:41It's the Bhalla Papri chaat.
00:55:42The Bhalla Papri chaat.
00:55:43Okay.
00:55:44No, what I'm saying is you work very closely with Rahul Gandhi.
00:55:47And I want to ask you this.
00:55:49A lot of leaders who have quit the Congress have come out and said that,
00:55:53there's just no access.
00:55:55That, do you need an appointment to speak to Mr. Gandhi?
00:55:58I'm asking you.
00:55:59Well, of course.
00:56:01Why, why won't you need an appointment?
00:56:03You can't pick up, like you pick up the phone and message my boss.
00:56:05You know, that's what I do.
00:56:07Yes, but if he's busy.
00:56:09For a message?
00:56:10I mean, he's, you know, if he's, if your boss is in a meeting,
00:56:13he's not going to answer you straight away, right?
00:56:15So you don't get straight away answers.
00:56:16And do you want to, can you convey everything that you want in a message?
00:56:20Don't you want to meet in person and therefore seek time?
00:56:23So I don't know what, what they're talking about.
00:56:25So are they saying that they've never met him?
00:56:28No, so if, if Mr. Gugoy wants an audience with Rahul Gandhi.
00:56:33You seek an appointment.
00:56:34How long?
00:56:35When is that appointment granted usually?
00:56:37More importantly, you know, these, some of those people who have made these stories,
00:56:43are the people who had the greatest access, who have spent some of the most amount of time.
00:56:47You're not telling me, do you get the access or not?
00:56:49So, I mean, let's start from where the story emanates from, right?
00:56:53So for them to say that, you know, this problem of access, I mean, come on, you know, you have all.
00:56:59Who are you talking about?
00:57:01Whoever you've thought about.
00:57:03No, no, you tell me who am I thinking about.
00:57:05Whoever you've thought about.
00:57:06No, no, you tell me.
00:57:07Okay.
00:57:08Because it's not the person, it's the narrative, right?
00:57:10So the people who make these stories are some who have spent the greatest amount of time.
00:57:15So for them to say that it's because of this, that I'm leaving.
00:57:19Sorry, it just doesn't, you know, doesn't cut anything with me.
00:57:22I don't, I think it's, you know, come up, be a bit more transparent.
00:57:27So I'll ask you again.
00:57:28So if you wanted an appointment with Mr. Gandhi today, when will you get it?
00:57:31We are, because if it's anything related to parliament.
00:57:36And if it's, it's not in parliament, we communicate over WhatsApp.
00:57:41Okay, but so you, he.
00:57:43We just, we just, we just, I just met him a few days ago because he was meeting the Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand.
00:57:51So I just accompanied him to that.
00:57:53So again, you know.
00:57:55If you want to, so basically, if you want to, you know, seek a meeting with him and say that, you know, things are not like, it's just hypothetical that things are not going too well between my three working presidents.
00:58:04I need to sort this out ASAP, you know, in the next a week or two.
00:58:08Will you get an appointment in a week or two?
00:58:10Yes, but why am I going to him?
00:58:13Why am I not trying to sort out with those who are responsible for the state of Assam?
00:58:17Is that the diktat from Mr. Gandhi?
00:58:21No, there is a flow.
00:58:23Right?
00:58:24There's a flow, you know, if you have a problem in your, in, in, in Chennai, in your studio, would speak to the Chennai head.
00:58:31Why would you speak to Mr. Proprietor of India today?
00:58:35Because there's so many things that sometimes get lost in translation.
00:58:38So it's very cool because sometimes I can actually pick up the phone and speak to my boss and tell her that, you know, this is the issue.
00:58:44And in two hours, it's sorted.
00:58:46All the red tapism is cut.
00:58:48Well, as I said, if it's, if that nature, right, you also know that your boss's time is important.
00:58:55Of course.
00:58:56And you would only escalate an issue when if you at your level have not been able to solve it at your own level.
00:59:02And that's only then you would escalate it.
00:59:04You would not say that your camera set up near a, would you call your boss for that?
00:59:07No, you wouldn't.
00:59:08You would, you would solve the situation yourself.
00:59:10That's what your, you know, that's what you've been given the responsibility of.
00:59:15You would, you know, you're not, your boss is not there to solve your problems all the time.
00:59:19Your boss expects you to solve your, your own problems and solve other people's problems.
00:59:24So I think.
00:59:25So accessibility is not an issue as per you.
00:59:27Accessibility is not an issue.
00:59:29Again, as I said, this, this question of accessibility is bogus.
00:59:33Right.
00:59:34So what's an issue?
00:59:35It has to be some issue, Mr. Gugoy.
00:59:36I'll tell you three issues within my organization.
00:59:37You tell me.
00:59:38Huh?
00:59:39Bolo.
00:59:40First you tell me.
00:59:41Bolo.
00:59:42You just, you just offer it.
00:59:43Three issues that are within my organization.
00:59:44There are, there can be so many, you know, we could do a better planning.
00:59:48We could do in terms of news gathering.
00:59:52We could be quicker with that.
00:59:53We could be quicker with communication.
00:59:55Where are, because we have so many verticals, so many verticals, but we accept it.
00:59:59We accept that we have so many verticals and there has to be better synergy between them.
01:00:03And we're working towards putting it all together.
01:00:05I have so many.
01:00:06Which is what?
01:00:07Better planning, quicker, more coordination.
01:00:10You can't copy my, you know.
01:00:12But I have so many.
01:00:13Nothing to do with the.
01:00:14Okay.
01:00:15Tell me, sir.
01:00:16I have said this at various levels is better planning for elections.
01:00:20State elections.
01:00:21I always.
01:00:22I.
01:00:23So you agree you are not planned.
01:00:25Let me complete.
01:00:26Okay.
01:00:27If I am a candidate for my own election.
01:00:29I start my preparation year, year and a half ago or two years ago, right?
01:00:33That's early planning.
01:00:34You do some initial scoping and serving.
01:00:36And sometimes I feel that we don't plan for our state elections earlier.
01:00:41Our planning needs to be much earlier than where it is right now.
01:00:46And agree what you second said that things need to be quicker.
01:00:50Sometimes, you know, decisions need to be quicker.
01:00:53You know, what can be done in a day sometimes takes a week because I understand it's a big
01:00:59organization.
01:01:01And like you said, there are many verticals.
01:01:03We also have many verticals, youth wing, mahila wing, professional wing, lawyers wing.
01:01:08And, you know, we all need to be much more synergetic, especially in era of technology.
01:01:12We need to be need to make sure that information flows and decisions flow.
01:01:17And therefore, we present a much more synergized version of what we're trying to say.
01:01:23Are you also of the opinion that Priyanka Gandhi needs to take a bigger role?
01:01:27Or it's all fine.
01:01:29I think I think her role is very big already.
01:01:31I mean, she, you know, and her role keeps getting escalated.
01:01:36I think, you know, we hadn't seen Priyanka Gandhi as the parliamentarian.
01:01:40And we've seen that.
01:01:42And I think just being in parliament just elevates what you have to say to a different level.
01:01:47Like I might say the same thing in a public rally, but somehow in parliament, maybe because of Sunset TV, the way it goes on to YouTube and therefore goes into people's mobile phones.
01:01:59It just reaches people's mobiles much more.
01:02:03So people in Assam have seen my speeches or would have seen her speeches, but they would not have seen my speeches at the political rally.
01:02:10So I think her role as a new parliamentarian has just elevated herself and thereby elevated the subjects and elevated our party also.
01:02:19You know, talking about the parliament, what's it like being in parliament?
01:02:23A, it's deeply humbling because there have been such great personalities who've walked through that corridors.
01:02:30B is that you are able to have a very combative debate and then break four cup of tea to have to kind of let go of that combat combativeness and talk to people across the aisle.
01:02:47And three is that sense of responsibility, because what you say is being will be watched by people in your state.
01:02:54So in terms of camaraderie, who's the friendliest from the treasury benches?
01:03:02The friendliest from the treasury benches?
01:03:05Yeah.
01:03:06Well, I think the speaker is very friendly, you know, when he's trying to sort out something between the two parties and we are, you know, I think he does sometimes try.
01:03:19Who's the most likable?
01:03:21Who's the most likable?
01:03:22From the treasury benches.
01:03:23From the treasury benches?
01:03:24From the treasury benches?
01:03:25Well, for me personally, somebody who I miss and deeply respected was Sussma ji and Arun ji.
01:03:32I think as a young parliamentarian, we looked up to them and they would often, you know, just tell us.
01:03:37And I remember Arun ji once telling me that,
01:03:39You are a deputy leader.
01:03:40Why are you coming to the house?
01:03:41Why are you laughing?
01:03:42Why are you laughing?
01:03:43Don't do paper paper.
01:03:44Don't do paper paper.
01:03:45Don't do this.
01:03:46Don't do this.
01:03:47And then I remember somebody senior like Suss Aluwali ji who was with us and he would say,
01:03:52May be jab jaban tha, may be aap tumahi tara chillata tha.
01:03:55So, you know, I mean, it's hard to rate someone and say most, but you know, when you say these are the most recent things.
01:04:01And the current lot who are still around, who was the most likable?
01:04:05Currently, I think Suss Aluwali ji is still there.
01:04:08So, only Suss Aluwali or?
01:04:10Well, you know, I think that's the last, I mean, I think we were on a flight together.
01:04:16And just yesterday coming from Guwahati to Delhi, I met spokesperson Nalil Kohli and he represents Assam on legal matters.
01:04:29And we have a chat because we often, you know, come to the same studios.
01:04:33Yes, as I said, you know, we can leave the combativeness of the debate and get to know each other's families.
01:04:39Who's the most vicious?
01:04:40Again, you know, these are, you know, these are very, I mean, you can't rate someone as vicious.
01:04:45Okay, give me one or two.
01:04:47As I said, there's no viciousness.
01:04:49Who do you dislike the most?
01:04:50There's no dislike.
01:04:51There's just, there's a combative, there's a professional respect.
01:04:53Okay, who's most combative?
01:04:55I think in the current lot, you know, I think when the Union Home Minister speaks, I think he's, you know, he always, you know, gives a very combative, very combative display of his party's positioning.
01:05:13Those are well-researched speeches.
01:05:15I'm not taking away from that.
01:05:17I think I'm not taking away from the research or the, I agree, they are well-researched, well-informed and are the most combative personalities on the other side.
01:05:26Who's the most fun from your own party?
01:05:28Who do you have the most fun with?
01:05:30Again, you know, I mean, you know, this, again, this just, again, it's just great.
01:05:35Okay, name a few if there's not one.
01:05:37No, I mean, I like working with everyone.
01:05:40I think, you know, I like talking to everyone.
01:05:43I like talking to people from Rajasthan, from Kerala, and I'm the deputy leader right now.
01:05:48If I want to say that who's my favorite, I think you'll put me in a pickle in the next monsoon session.
01:05:52Okay, who's got the best sense of humor?
01:05:54Who's got the best sense of humor?
01:05:55Yeah, from your side.
01:05:56I think Mr. Gandhi has a very good sense of humor, which our offer doesn't come to display.
01:06:01Yeah.
01:06:02So like, are you guys cracking jokes when you're sitting next to each other?
01:06:05I think he has a good sense of humor and can come up and sometimes maybe a slightly wicked sense of humor.
01:06:11He has his own jokes to say.
01:06:13All right, you know, I've got the last five minutes.
01:06:14So I'm going to ask you now you have, you're going into elections in the next 10 months.
01:06:18So, you know, talking about Assam, what do you like doing in Assam?
01:06:21What I like doing?
01:06:22Yeah, when you were home.
01:06:24I just, I really like campaigning.
01:06:27You like campaigning?
01:06:28I like campaigning.
01:06:29I like traveling.
01:06:30I like going to new places.
01:06:31As I said, the best way is to travel.
01:06:34Right?
01:06:35Whether in your personal life or in your work.
01:06:37I think.
01:06:38So I like, love to travel.
01:06:40Just, you know, see different parts of Assam.
01:06:42To see, you know, what that future of that village or that town would look like.
01:06:47Maybe 10 years from now, five years from now.
01:06:50Identify the problems.
01:06:51Meet the people also.
01:06:53Just, you know, get outside of the bubble of your own party and meet ordinary people.
01:06:58Listen to their feedback, positive or constructive.
01:07:02And food.
01:07:03I think Assam has some tremendous, fantastic food and different parts of Assam has different cuisines.
01:07:08And I look forward some, I mean, sometimes I'm very finical about my program programming schedule.
01:07:15But I'm even more fastidious about what my lunch timings are and what's being served for lunch.
01:07:19What do you like for lunch?
01:07:20Usually.
01:07:21If it was a perfect lunch, what would it be?
01:07:23Well, it depends on which part of Assam I'm in, right?
01:07:26Which part?
01:07:27In some part, the fish is great.
01:07:28In some part, the duck is great.
01:07:30In some part, the pork is great.
01:07:31Because this is the afternoon.
01:07:32And if we had to, we were finishing this interview.
01:07:34And from one part of Assam, what are you craving today?
01:07:37What would be your lunch?
01:07:39Well, I think fish, I think lower Assam in Borpeta, you just get fantastic fish.
01:07:46Actually, I just came back from Miss Hilchar.
01:07:48And those who are Bengali would know the Hilsa fish.
01:07:51I'm a big fan of Hilsa fish as well.
01:07:53That's a Bengali Hindu pitch, right there.
01:07:56That's the observation from a political journalist.
01:07:59No foodie would ever think about that.
01:08:01But those who are foodies would, yeah, like, you know,
01:08:04Ilish Mahesh with the mustard curry is just perfect.
01:08:07So that would be for lunch.
01:08:08That's what I had two days ago.
01:08:10And that's the flavor which remains with me till now.
01:08:13Well, let's hope politically that's the flavor that remains with you 10 months from now.
01:08:18Because that's a flavor that you are missing, I think, in your current thali.
01:08:22Well, as I said, the Congress parties for all, through thick and thin, we don't compromise.
01:08:30If any community feels that they've been unfairly treated, we've stood,
01:08:35especially if you're talking about the Bengali Hindu community,
01:08:38nobody has stood with them as much as late Prime Minister Indira Gandhiji has.
01:08:42So we stand with all communities who are unfairly treated, no matter what religion they are.
01:08:48And if it's at the cost of elections, so be it.
01:08:51You know, I'm of the view that one shouldn't compromise on your core values.
01:08:56If I'm traveling to Assam and I'm trying, you know, there are a lot of,
01:08:59because a lot of people now are traveling to the Northeast.
01:09:03Give me a couple of places which are not on the tourist map, which one must go to.
01:09:07Well, I would say that don't, if you're taking out the time to travel to the Northeast,
01:09:12why restrict yourself to one state? Go visit two.
01:09:15True.
01:09:16So go combine Assam with Megali or combine Assam with Arunachal.
01:09:20Because the common view that people have the Northeast is hills.
01:09:23And Assam is not hilly. Assam is a river valley.
01:09:26True.
01:09:27You know, one can't go to the Northeast and not experience the hills.
01:09:30I mean, I love going to Uttarakhand and Himachal.
01:09:32And there is a, you know, there's a, there's a Punjabi in me and there thoda bhat pahadi bhi hai.
01:09:36So, you know, one, if you're going, you have to either see the peaks of Arunachal, Tawang,
01:09:42or see the beauty of the hills in Megali, along with Assam.
01:09:46So that would be my only recommendation.
01:09:48Do you think the Northeast is better integrated with India, especially under the BJP?
01:09:52That you'd agree with, right?
01:09:54I don't think so.
01:09:55I think we, I don't know why would you ask me that question.
01:10:00We have a divided Manipur.
01:10:01You know, we, we have an unstable infrastructure.
01:10:07Infrastructure.
01:10:08No?
01:10:09Can't deny that.
01:10:10I mean, you would always place, given our history, peace and harmony over anything.
01:10:17You know, we've lost development 20 years because there was no harmony between different
01:10:23communities.
01:10:24Manipur today has been pushed back by 15 years.
01:10:26I feel as a Northeast that so much injustice has been done and everything is being, being
01:10:32hidden under this development.
01:10:34Manipur has just been pushed back 15 years.
01:10:36What is development without human lives being at the center of it?
01:10:40And the humanity of Manipur have been devastated.
01:10:43Floods is something that Assam faces every year.
01:10:46And also people in Bihar, we have not come up with something tremendous for floods.
01:10:52Floods every year pushes people back into poverty.
01:10:55We have an unstable border now with Bangladesh.
01:10:59We've always have hostility with China.
01:11:02So I, there is a greater influx of commodity, of greater influx of smuggled goods from Myanmar, especially drugs and supari.
01:11:13I'm actually much, I feel we are at a very precarious situation right now.
01:11:20We are in a very precarious environment on our international front.
01:11:26A lot of attention is played, is given to the Western side of Indian border.
01:11:30I think we are now extremely volatile, given the situation in Myanmar, Bangladesh and China on India's eastern front as well.
01:11:37Do you think the racism is better with the Northeast and India is concerned?
01:11:41I think the mainland, because it's always India and the Northeast.
01:11:44I don't think so.
01:11:46There is no better racism.
01:11:47Is it?
01:11:48Yeah, yeah.
01:11:49It's still there.
01:11:50It still exists.
01:11:51Are things better though?
01:11:52I don't think so.
01:11:53I just had a chat with a couple of young university students who are from the Northeast, who are studying in Delhi.
01:11:59And if you hear what their concerns are, you know, you could go back 20 years, you know, and you would be transported back in time.
01:12:06So it's the same, but I think the young people of Northeast are far more confident and their farm instead of hiding their identity, hiding their food, hiding their fashion sense.
01:12:17Now they wear it on their sleeve, like it or leave it.
01:12:20And I think that's what I like because I often tell people that one should not seek pity.
01:12:26We are proud of our heritage.
01:12:28We are as Indians as anyone.
01:12:29We will show our heritage and we will show our Indianness throughout through our work.
01:12:34So be it Mericom, Meera Bai Chanu, someone who is in the film world or me sitting in inside parliament, we will show ourselves through our merit and not seek for pity.
01:12:47Last two questions, Mr. Bogoy.
01:12:49In 1986, your father was requested or, you know, by Mr. Rajiv Gandhi to try and rebuild the party.
01:12:58You find yourself in a similar role today with Mr. Rahul Gandhi?
01:13:01Yes, I do.
01:13:03Yes, I do.
01:13:04You do.
01:13:05I think we are in a tough spot given the panchayat elections.
01:13:13We did well in certain Lok Sabha seats and not.
01:13:18I think there is a great responsibility for me to strengthen the party and through strengthening the party, help the people of Assam live in an environment of peace, harmony, where they feel they have the freedom to express themselves and they have the right to criticize even us without fear of retribution.
01:13:36All right.
01:13:37So, you know, from where you come from is Assam, where I come from is actually Haryana.
01:13:41And if I need to integrate, you're trying to integrate a segment where we trade what could be, let's say acceptable and PG-13 cuss word that you would exchange in Assamese and I'll give you one in Haryanui.
01:13:58Yeah.
01:13:59Which one would it be in Assamese?
01:14:00We are not.
01:14:01But it has to be on.
01:14:02It should pass the on air test.
01:14:03Yeah.
01:14:04I don't think so.
01:14:05I can pass the on air test.
01:14:06You can't.
01:14:07It's that bad, huh?
01:14:08It's not that bad.
01:14:09I only know the bad one.
01:14:10Then what's the problem?
01:14:11So that's why I can't say it on air.
01:14:14You can't say it on air.
01:14:15Okay.
01:14:16We're going to leave it at me.
01:14:17But we shake on that.
01:14:18Appreciate you joining us.
01:14:19But I'm happy to learn.
01:14:20No, it only comes when if you give me one.
01:14:22So I'll give you another attempt.
01:14:24No, thanks.
01:14:25No?
01:14:26Okay.
01:14:27All right.
01:14:28But then, thank you.
01:14:29Thank you, Mr. Gaurav Gagai for joining us.
01:14:31It's been a pleasure.
01:14:32Thank you so much.
01:14:33And good luck.
01:14:34Let's see how it goes in the next 10 months.
01:14:35And wish you the best with your show also.
01:14:37Thank you so much.

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