"A jövőbeli palesztin államban lesz helye a nőknek és azoknak, akik tisztelik a törvényeket"
Varsen Shahin palesztin külügyminiszter szerint a jövőbeni palesztin állam pluralista lesz, tiszteletben tartva az Izraellel kötött kétállami megoldásról szóló megállapodást és a nemzetközi törvényeket.
00:00My guest this week on the Europe Conversation is Palestinian Foreign Affairs Minister Varsan Shaheen.
00:14She says she's shocked and disappointed at Europe's failure to act against Israel for its human rights breaches in Gaza and the West Bank.
00:22Dr. Varsan Shaheen, Palestinian Minister for Foreign Affairs, thank you very much for joining us on Euronews.
00:30Assalamu alaikum.
00:31Thank you very much and thank you for hosting me.
00:33What was widely anticipated happened, which is that EU member states decided not to take action against Israel for its war in Gaza and the situation in the West Bank.
00:43Many member states really can't agree to do that.
00:44And it's obviously despite the fact that the EU has a report that said that Israel has breached EU human rights standards.
00:52What is your response to that?
00:55Shocking and disappointing because everything is crystal clear.
01:00I mean, there's an EU report that clearly stated that Israel has been violating 38.
01:0838 violations were indicated in that report and it's an EU report.
01:13And the EU-Israel Association agreement is also clear in its Article 2 on anybody part of the agreement should be in compliance with international law and international humanitarian law.
01:31And when an EU report says that there are 38 violations that should be taken very seriously and these violations have been unfolding in front of everybody's eyes.
01:43The whole world has been seeing what is happening in Gaza, the killing, the atrocities, the war crimes, the weaponization of food, the killing of people queuing to get a pack of flour.
02:01All of this is clear. All of this is clear. It doesn't need more assessment and yet there was a failure on agreeing to take actual measures.
02:13I mean, those member states would say that that's the point, isn't it? That actually it won't deter anything.
02:19It won't help the situation on the ground for Palestinians and that it would close the contact with Israel.
02:25Yes, but this line has been opened for so many years and the violations are continuing.
02:30The time is now to say enough is enough and wrongdoing, any perpetrator of wrongdoing should be held accountable.
02:38No state is above the law.
02:40What we hear from Israel is also that Hamas is taking aid from the mouths of Palestinian people in Gaza as well.
02:48Look, there are conflicting reports on this, but regardless, whatever is being offered in Gaza is not meeting the needs of the Gazans.
02:58There was a modality in the past and that modality was working because the international organizations were distributing the aid
03:07and they had like 300 points of distribution. Today, we have a new modality with four points of distribution.
03:14Invariably, you will have crowds, massive numbers of people queuing to get food.
03:20Today, it is not receiving, it's not received by the people and it's causing a lot of damage and deaths.
03:27Today, there are more than 700 people who have lost their lives, killed while queuing for food, and this has to stop.
03:34One of the points also made by the EU is that the reason they may not take action against Israel now is it's pending the materialization of this new agreement
03:43where the EU and Israel have agreed to substantially increase the amount of aid into Gaza,
03:50reopening humanitarian routes in Egypt, Jordan and other areas,
03:55and substantially make sure that people can get access to not just food but to medical items.
04:00Is that something that you're hopeful of?
04:02Well, these are the requests by the EU and I hope the EU puts very strong scrutinizing measures on monitoring the compliance with the agreement.
04:13Because if we look at the last week since the agreement was made, we see more killings of people.
04:21We see people killed at the queuing points.
04:26We see children brutally murdered while in tents awaiting medical care from another tent.
04:33So these are the kinds of questions that need to be asked today and asked in a very serious manner.
04:40And reports should not only come from Israel, because Israel has denied entry of journalists,
04:47has denied the work of a lot of the NGOs, and is not allowing anybody to come up with anything that is credible.
04:56Well, speaking of influence, your own President Mahmoud Abbas has called for Hamas to release the hostages immediately,
05:02to give their weapons up, to root out Hamas, and to essentially say that in any future Palestinian state,
05:08Hamas won't rule the Gaza Strip.
05:11But, I mean, the Palestinian Authority isn't even involved in any of the negotiations at the moment.
05:16It doesn't have any influence.
05:18Yes, the Palestinian Authority is very relevant, because the Palestinian Authority today functions in Gaza.
05:25We have people in the health sector, we have people in the education sector, in water, in energy, in social services.
05:31We have an operations room that has all the Palestinian ministries.
05:35It has most of the international organizations that meet on a regular base and discusses issues in Gaza,
05:42and meeting the demands and the needs in Gaza, which we know are monumental and cannot be met by the Palestinian Authority alone.
05:50So, we are relevant.
05:52I mean, Hamas has ruled Gaza with an iron fist for nearly 20 years now.
05:57So, the Palestinian Authority hasn't had influence in the way that you're saying it has,
06:01not from a cultural perspective or a political perspective.
06:04I mean, there's been so much violence against Palestinians by Hamas in the Gaza Strip,
06:08and the PA haven't been able to influence anything there.
06:11But not everybody in Gaza is Hamas.
06:14Of course. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying the way they rule Gaza.
06:17Yes, but things will change.
06:21And if people see a future that gives them some hope going into the future whereby they are respected as human beings,
06:31things will fluctuate.
06:33One other issue, though, I mean, let's say we're getting to that, is that there's always been complaints as far back as Yasser Arafat,
06:38but also the Palestinian Authority, the PLO, that there's deep corruption and nepotism within that organization.
06:44And you talk to young Palestinians, and they say the same thing.
06:47Okay, we don't support Hamas, but the alternative isn't going to lead us down a very strong path either.
06:54How can you persuade, in fact, not just persuade people, but how will you root out that level of corruption?
06:59Look, corruption is everywhere.
07:00I know, but that's not an excuse.
07:02It's not an excuse, but corruption is everywhere.
07:05And remember, we are under occupation and occupation corrupts.
07:11Occupation corrupts.
07:12Well, culture exists anyway.
07:13Funding from outside corrupts, not being able to direct your organizations the way you want corrupts.
07:23So there are so many variables in Palestine that lead towards that end.
07:28That is not an excuse.
07:29But today, we have a reform and development agenda by this government in Palestine.
07:36And we're working on all aspects to curtail corruption, to decrease nepotism,
07:44to ensure that our organizations are governed by rules and regulations applicable to all.
07:50This takes time.
07:51Can you see any politician or political group in Israel that you could do business with
07:57to eventually have and create a Palestinian state?
08:00I mean, there's so much aggression and confrontation.
08:03It looks so further apart than it's ever been, really.
08:06Well, to tell you, I mean, with this rightist government, it's very difficult.
08:10Because if you hear what this government stands for, what the ministers utter,
08:15the incitement against the Palestinians and anything that is Palestinian, it would be very difficult.
08:20But that doesn't mean that we should give up.
08:23We need, the Israelis should create the body that can take them onwards.
08:29And with the Trump administration, I mean, do you have any hope now?
08:34Well, we keep the hope alive, because we are two-staters.
08:39And we believe that that two-state solution is the only viable solution.
08:43Because Israel will not accept to be a democratic state for all its citizens.
08:48And we will not accept to continue living the status quo or an apartheid state.
08:53A lot of the Arab countries, in particular Egypt, but also Saudi Arabia, even Jordan,
08:59although the King of Jordan has been very vocal in his opposition to what Israel is doing,
09:03the other Arab countries have not been strenuously trying to support or push for international measures
09:09in support of Palestinians. Does that disappoint you?
09:12No, because today the Arab support is more than ever.
09:17But in Egypt it's not. I mean, the Egyptians are charging Palestinians an arm and a leg
09:22more money than they could ever afford to just simply leave the Gaza Strip
09:26and stay in Egypt for some safety. You see those stories all the time.
09:29No, but if you look at what, for example, I will give you one example.
09:34When President Trump said about his intention to create the Riviera,
09:40there was very quick response from all Arab states, individually and collectively,
09:45on the no-displacement issue of Palestinians. And today, more than ever, they are adamant
09:52on ensuring that normalisation will not happen unless there is a move towards a political path.
10:00And that's important.
10:02Do you believe, then, someone like Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia,
10:05and the Qataris and so on, that they are actually actively, behind the scenes at least,
10:10pushing Trump to create a Palestinian, a two-state solution, or at least to stop the war in Gaza?
10:16I mean, do you have any information about that?
10:18I think all countries are sending messages to the United States on the immediate ceasefire,
10:28the entrance of humanitarian aid, the unimpeded entrance, the opening of the crossing,
10:36the easing up on the Gaza Strip, and the two-state solution.
10:40I mean, today, Saudi Arabia is co-sponsoring this international conference.
10:46So, today, Saudi Arabia is very vocal about no normalisation unless there is a political path.
10:54And for us, Saudi Arabia is a very important Arab country.
10:58Just before I let you go, Dr. Shaheen, in the future Palestinian state, what does it look like to you?
11:03Obviously, there would have to be Israeli guarantees, security guarantees, and so on.
11:08Is it a pluralistic society?
11:10It would be a pluralistic society. There will be a place for women.
11:15I'm a woman, and I'm a minister of foreign affairs, and I'm Christian, and I'm from Armenian origin.
11:20Where would you find that? But you see it in Palestine.
11:25So, Palestine would be a place for everyone, everyone that is peace-loving, everyone that respects international law,
11:34everyone that respects any agreement signed by Palestine with its neighbours,
11:40and everyone that believes that Palestinians deserve to live and deserve to be contributors to the world, just like they have been.
11:48Okay, Dr. Farsan Shaheen, Palestinian foreign affairs minister, thank you very much for joining us on Euronews.
