Crown Court - There Was An Old Woman (1984) HD - Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, David Daker - video Dailymotion

Dreamer

(3 parts)  Alice Atha died at the age of 73. A post mortem revealed signs of emaciation and tuberculous meningitis. Her daughter Grace Barber and son-in-law Harry Barber are accused of her manslaughter through neglect. They allege that the couple were indifferent to her welfare, leading to her starvation which triggered the meningitis for which they failed to seek medical help. The Barbers deny the charges. The Defence case is that Mrs. Atha chose not to eat despite their best efforts and that - while lethargic and weak - she did not display signs of significant illness before her death.  Starring Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, David Daker, Rachel Herbert, Rosemary Martin, Sebastian Shaw, John Tallents, Raad Ravi. Directed by Sarah Harding.

Transcript

00:00:00the case you're about to see is fiction but the procedure is legally accurate the

00:00:18characters are played by actors but the jury is selected from members of the

00:00:22general public my lord and members of the jury the accused Harold and Grace Barber are charged

00:00:31with a manslaughter by neglect of mrs. Barber's mother mrs. Alice Ather at the new in public house

00:00:37in Lampsford on the 1st of October last year three months after she'd moved into the care of the

00:00:43defendants mrs. Ather aged 73 was discovered dead in an upstairs bedroom she was in a starved and

00:00:50emaciated state and had died from tuberculosis of the meninges which are the membranes around the

00:00:57brain are you Dr. Roger Cordery and is your practice at 5 Megs Lane Fulchester that's right how long have

00:01:04you been in general medical practice please 12 years oh may Dr. Cordery refer to his notes my lord

00:01:09did you attend mrs. Alice Ather the deceased yes from the 5th of January last year she was staying

00:01:17with her daughter mrs. Sheppard I'm GP to both of them she had mild arthritis in the ankle and knee

00:01:22joints I prescribed indescent to be taken three times a day it's a pain-killing drug which comes

00:01:28in capsule form I also recommended that mrs. Ather be placed on a high calorie high protein diet

00:01:33could she walk unaided oh yes degree of arthritis wasn't that great well thereafter how often did you

00:01:40see mrs. Ather once a month for a repeat prescription and generally to see how she was feeling the pain

00:01:46certainly eased I kept her on indescent did you visit her at home yes she took to staying in

00:01:52bed more she was an old lady who liked to pretend she was worse than she was in order to receive

00:01:57attention I gathered that her daughter did a lot of running around for her how did you know this from

00:02:03talking to her daughter mrs. Sheppard old mrs. Ather would frequently tell me that she was

00:02:07incapable of getting out of bed and walking some elderly people do like to play on their illnesses

00:02:12to get attention what was her state of mind like it tended to wander she wasn't senile did you form an

00:02:19opinion as to whether she was eating or not yes I got the impression she wasn't eating properly she

00:02:25liked cakes and biscuits bread and butter chocolates things like that old ladies quite often don't know

00:02:32what's good for them hence the diet I recommended was mrs. Ather's future care ever discussed

00:02:37yes mrs. Sheppard spoke to me about putting her in a home she asked your advice yes but mrs. Ather

00:02:42refused to go in fact on a few occasions when I spoke to mrs. Ather she was very upset by the thought

00:02:47in the end there was very little advice I could give it was more of a domestic problem than a medical

00:02:54one when did you last see mrs. Ather as a patient on the 28th of June was her health reasonable there

00:03:01was little sign of any deterioration except that she was staying in bed far more what would her weight have

00:03:06been at that time I'd have to guess I'd say between eight and nine stone which was healthy why did

00:03:15you cease attending to her because she left the district mrs. Sheppard told me that she'd moved

00:03:19away to live with her other daughter in Lamsford thank you Dr. Cordray Dr. Cordray how would you

00:03:27describe mrs. Ather's build she was thin and this high calorie high protein diets that you put her

00:03:36on what was the purpose of that it was to build her up also I suggested the diet because her general

00:03:41health might have suffered through her inability to take proper exercise as you say you were under

00:03:45the impression that her eating habits were poor yes yes did you feel that she was undernourished while

00:03:52living with mrs. Sheppard I suspected she was eating the wrong things I simply put her on a more

00:03:57beneficial diet well what happens normally when one eats the wrong things over a prolonged period one

00:04:03one simply doesn't get enough proper nourishment that is so yes did you ever examine mrs. Ather fully

00:04:14I gave her a check-up her blood pressure seemed a little low but on the whole she seemed fit her heart

00:04:20was very sad did she appear to have been an active person yes she'd enjoyed old time dancing in the

00:04:27past I got the impression from mrs. Ather that she'd led quite an active life up until the death of her

00:04:32husband and before the onset of the arthritis she'd always enjoyed going shopping on her own that sort

00:04:37of thing was she depressed I think she could have been you think she could have been yes I suggest

00:04:46you dr. Cordray that an old lady who has been active and who obviously enjoys activity who

00:04:51suddenly finds herself afflicted with arthritic pain and who hears suggestions that her daughter is

00:04:56thinking of putting her in a home I suggest to you that that old lady might become very depressed

00:05:01indeed I would agree I also suggest that that is why she spent more and more time in her bed

00:05:06because she was depressed that is possible would you say that mrs. Shepherd was under a strain looking

00:05:13after her mother yes and were you aware of mrs. Ather's other daughter mrs. Barber was anything ever

00:05:19said about her yes I knew there was another daughter from conversations with mrs. Shepherd I gathered that

00:05:25she was unwilling to take a share of looking after mrs. Ather and is that why mrs. Shepherd resorted to

00:05:30thinking of a home for her mother yes yes you say that you ceased attending to mrs. Ather because

00:05:36she moved out of the district that's right did mrs. Shepherd ever tell you the circumstances under

00:05:41which she got her sister to take care of her mother yes she said she'd driven her mother to

00:05:46sisters and left her there but her sister was now responsible for her care and did you subsequently

00:05:51inquire about mrs. Ather's health no I didn't see mrs. Shepherd to inquire you just forgot about mrs. Ather

00:05:59Ather she was no longer my patient are you dr. Stephen little yes and where is your practice

00:06:07please 15th High Street Lambsford are you the GP to Harold and Grace Barber the accused well I've

00:06:13attended mrs. Barber not mr. Barber they've only lived in the village a few months was this ever at

00:06:18the new inn where they live no at the surgery did mrs. Barber ever mention to you that she was

00:06:22looking after her mother she did did she ever mention the circumstances in which he'd taken

00:06:27responsibility for her mother my lord it has not yet been established that my client did willingly

00:06:32take responsibility miss miles your client permitted her mother to live at her address by so doing she

00:06:39assumed the burden of responsibility but not willingly my lord learned counsel did not say willingly and if

00:06:49he had done it wouldn't make the slightest difference the way I see it I'll repeat my question did mrs. Barber ever

00:06:58mention the circumstances in which she'd taken responsibility for her mother she said her sister

00:07:02had dumped her on them dumped she said dumped those words did she ever ask you to attend mrs. Ather no she

00:07:10didn't did she ever discuss mrs. Ather's health with you no were you ever aware that mrs. Ather was an arthritic

00:07:16sufferer no moving to the events of the first of October last year can you please tell the court in

00:07:22your own words what occurred well I was telephoned just after eight o'clock in the morning by mr. Barber

00:07:26mrs. Barber had been in hospital for a week undergoing a hysterectomy he asked me to come down to the new

00:07:32inn and have a look at mrs. Ather he said that she wasn't breathing and he believed she could be dead so I

00:07:38called an ambulance and went immediately the room was small rather cold I thought mrs. Ather was in

00:07:46the bed I examined her and found that she was dead did you estimate how long she'd been dead some hours

00:07:52can you describe her to us yes I found her extremely emaciated almost wasted away her temples were sunken

00:08:01her face had a very gray appearance did you come to any conclusion as to the cause of death not

00:08:08immediately no it was difficult was anything said between you and mr. Barber well I asked him if mrs.

00:08:13Ather had been ill and he said that she hadn't been eating properly and had totally lost her appetite

00:08:18I asked him if any doctor had attended her recently he said no as a doctor did that surprise you yes

00:08:25shocked me in fact I asked him why I hadn't been called in he said he hadn't thought it was necessary

00:08:31he'd been so busy running the pub and visiting his wife in hospital what possibilities did you

00:08:37consider as to the cause of death well at first I considered a wasting disease of which well there

00:08:43are a few and then I thought a poison might have been involved did you consider starvation I didn't

00:08:52know it's not the sort of thing one believes can happen except sometimes in cases of anorexia nervosa

00:08:58so I called the police what was mr. Barber's reaction to all this well he was upset by the old

00:09:06lady's death thank you dr. Little

00:09:08dr. Little did mrs. Barber ever express any anxiety as to her mother's health never but she told you

00:09:18quite openly that she was living there yes she made no secret of the fact at all that's right

00:09:24and she said that her sister mrs. Shepherd had dumped her on them on herself mr. Barber that's

00:09:31what she told me did she tell you why her sister had dumped her on them I think she said her sister

00:09:36could no longer look after her did mrs. Barber tell you how old her mother was yes 73 and you have

00:09:43many elderly patients about 150 and as a GP you're obviously well aware of the problems that beset the

00:09:51elderly of course did it never occur to you that an old lady in her 70s whom you knew to be difficult

00:09:57might be in need of some medical treatment a doctor does not go out looking for patients

00:10:04really my lord who is on trial here and I must correct my learner Trent dr. Little did not know

00:10:09mrs. Ather was difficult to look after he'd been told that mrs. Barber's sister could no longer look

00:10:14after her yes you really mustn't put words into the witnesses mouth miss miles I apologize for

00:10:22doing so my lord but carry on by all means did you ever ask mrs. Barber how her mother was I was

00:10:30never asked to attend to her so I assumed she was in good health but there had been no attempt to

00:10:35conceal the fact from you that she was living there none yes you say you didn't consider starvation to be

00:10:42the cause of death that you first considered a wasting disease that is so do you know the disease

00:10:47tuberculous meningitis well I know the disease I've never come across a case before and is it a

00:10:52wasting disease well not always but it can lead to emaciation how does emaciation follow from the

00:10:59disease I understand because it causes anorexia and the patient no longer eats anorexia yes the loss of

00:11:07appetite is your name Rebecca Shepard yes you live at 15 Park Walk Fulchester yes and are they accused

00:11:31your sister and brother-in-law yes what's your occupation please I'm a teacher at Hill Road Primary

00:11:37School are you married divorced for how long did you look after your mother mrs. Alice Arthur two years

00:11:44did you invite your mother to come and live with you not exactly she she came after my father died did

00:11:50she have a house of her own yes in Derby she sold it she nursed my father for many years he had Parkinson's

00:11:57disease and she said that well she said the house had too many unhappy memories for her did you intend

00:12:03that she should stay with you permanently it was what she intended what were relations like between

00:12:09your mother and your sister mrs. Barber at that time oh grace was always her favorite it's always grace

00:12:15this and grace that and I'd say to her why don't you go to grace if she's so wonderful why did mrs. Arthur

00:12:22come to live with you and not with grace because I was living on my own and grace and Harry were

00:12:27working as relief tenants and they were always moving around from pub to pub did mrs. Arthur have

00:12:32her own room yes I gave him my spare bedroom upstairs now prior to the 5th of January last year did you

00:12:39ever have to take her to a doctor no but you say that she was fit and healthy around that time apart

00:12:43from arthritis yes Dr. Corddry told us he recommended a high calorie high protein diet for your mother is

00:12:49that so yes that's right did he tell you what foodstuffs this should consist of steak beef fish

00:12:55milk cheese eggs did you comply with that diet yes how many meals did you give your mother a day

00:13:01two breakfast and dinner did she have a healthy appetite sometimes she had to be coaxed she's

00:13:07quite a light eater could mrs. Arthur cook for herself yes and did she get herself things to eat

00:13:12yes uh until she started to stay in bed a bit more did looking after your mother become a strain

00:13:19yes it did can you tell us in what way because nothing that I ever did was good enough for her

00:13:26she complained about everything about the house the way I looked after even the way I dressed

00:13:31did she talk about grace during this period yes every day what did she say

00:13:36well she's she's cruel she'd say why wasn't I married she'd compare me with grace she'd say

00:13:45that grace would never complain about having to look after and grace was so wonderful did mrs.

00:13:49barber ever visit her never never once in the two years she lived with you never once did she write

00:13:54or telephone never did you ever contact your sister speak to her yes quite a few times what was said

00:14:00between you I said it was time she took her share of looking after mum what was her response that she

00:14:07and Harry never knew where they'd be what pub they'd be and it wasn't practical and that I was better

00:14:13placed you were still teaching I was can we now move to the third of July last year what happened on

00:14:19that day I knew that grace Harry grace and Harry finally realized their ambition they got their own pub in

00:14:26Lansford and I put mother in the car with her possessions and I drove around there with what

00:14:32purpose leaving her there did you warn your sister and brother-in-law of your arrival no what were their

00:14:38reactions grace was furious she swore at me a good deal and Harry was a bit more understanding I think

00:14:44he guessed the strain that had been under did you tell your sister and brother-in-law that mrs.

00:14:48ather needed medication and that she was under the doctor yes did you take her current medication with

00:14:53you yes what did it consist of a bottle of capsules inducing was this the last time you ever saw your

00:14:59mother yes did you ever attempt to see your mother again once toward the end of August what occurred I

00:15:06went to the new in the pub to see my mother I hadn't heard how she'd been getting on or anything and I

00:15:14felt a bit guilty I would have liked to apologize to her for the way that I treated him and Harry was

00:15:25behind the bar and I don't know where grace was and he refused to let me see my mother did he give

00:15:29any reason he said mother never wanted to speak to me again after the way that I treated him what did

00:15:37you do then I asked where she was asked how she you know if she was all right and he said she's fine

00:15:43she didn't want to see you he repeated it and I said well just for a moment just to talk to her he

00:15:53refused to let me go upstairs did you ask if there was a doctor attending to your mother I don't remember

00:16:00was that the first and last time you were tempted to see your mother yes what was the next thing you heard

00:16:08about her about a month later heard that she was dead thank you mrs. Sheppard

00:16:14mrs. Sheppard why did you look after your mother I saw it as my duty she nursed father for 20 years I felt I

00:16:28ordered her and this high-calorie high-protein diet that dr. Cordray recommended what did it replace

00:16:35and I'm sorry what do you mean well what was your mother's diet before dr. Cordray put her on this

00:16:41high-calorie high-protein one oh she ate all sorts of things what things please tell us she had a lot

00:16:48of cold things cold meats tomatoes Britain butter and were you cooking your mother two proper meals a

00:16:54day at this time no so what was she actually doing then feeding herself she tended to just eat as she

00:17:01wanted did you ever cook her a meal well she wouldn't eat what I cook very often yes I suggest your mother

00:17:08was in the habit of eating in a certain way certain things that she liked and she was loath to lose that

00:17:14habit is that how it appeared to you yes yes so that for over a year and a half you were aware that

00:17:20your mother's eating habits were poor I didn't think about you thought about them enough to talk

00:17:25to dr. Cordray about them I felt I had after a year and seven months yes yes you said a few minutes ago

00:17:33that you regarded looking after your mother as a duty that you owed it to her do you consider that by

00:17:39allowing your mother to eat poorly you were looking after her I let her live with me I couldn't make her

00:17:45eat what she wouldn't eat so after dr. Cordray's visit you began giving her two proper meals a day

00:17:52yes yes what time did you give her breakfast quarter to nine yes and what time do you start teaching

00:17:58what time in the morning nine o'clock and what time do you leave the house about quarter to nine

00:18:04I suggest therefore that you never actually had time to sit down and watch your mother eat breakfast

00:18:12I know that she ate it how do you know she told me she told you so but how do you know that she

00:18:17ate it when I came home the dishes were downstairs and washed up your mother was capable of coming

00:18:22downstairs with her breakfast dishes and washing them up yes and she told you that she'd eaten her

00:18:26breakfast yes and you believed her yes even though previously had been hard almost impossible to make

00:18:32your mother eat what was good for her well she knew that she had to I'm sorry if she knew that she had

00:18:37to eat properly you said you made sure your mother ate two proper meals a day I did but one of them

00:18:45you never actually saw her eat I'm not sure what you're suggesting I'm simply suggesting that considering

00:18:52what you've told us about your mother's eating habits it's very likely that she might not have eaten

00:18:56the breakfast that you prepared for her I'm sure she did did you ever suspect that she might not be

00:19:01well yes once or twice maybe can you be more precise I used to check in the dustbin just in

00:19:07case you used to check in the dustbin did you ever find any evidence that your mother had thrown

00:19:17anything away no but your suspicions were aroused I knew what she was like right that is exactly the

00:19:22point that I've been trying to establish you knew what she was like where was the toilet upstairs next to

00:19:27her room yes and presumably she was also capable of going there oh yes right let's talk about dinner

00:19:37did you take dinner together yes and was this in the evening when you came home from school yes did

00:19:45she always eat everything yes yet prior to dr. Cordray's visit and his recommendation of this high calorie

00:19:53high protein diet when you cooked your mother a meal she would not eat it that is what you've told

00:19:58us that's right by what means did you suddenly succeed in making your mother eat I persuaded her

00:20:04to I suggest that it was a very dramatic change in your mother's eating habits it was yes for over a

00:20:11year and a half she would not eat what you cooked her now suddenly here she is eating properly and fully

00:20:16yes did she like the food that you cooked for her no and yet she ate it yes you said under examination

00:20:23nothing I ever did was good enough for her she complained about everything did that include the

00:20:27food that you cooked for her yes she complained about the food you cooked for her she didn't like the

00:20:31food that you cooked for her you suspected she wasn't eating the breakfast that you prepared for her

00:20:35and yet you continued undaunted to prepare your mother two proper meals a day is that true or not true it's true

00:20:49I suggest that it is not true

00:20:56I put up with her for two years isn't that enough

00:21:02was there a significant change in your mother's diet or did it remain much the same in spite of

00:21:09your valiant efforts

00:21:10you are under oath mrs shepherd

00:21:15it's much the same

00:21:19and did you continue to prepare your mother two proper meals a day or was it a task that you set

00:21:25yourself with the very finest intentions a task which you quickly realized was hopeless because

00:21:30of your mother's ways what you said I beg your pardon I tried to do it I really tried it was her

00:21:39that starved her not us she was as thin as a bloody rake will the defendant please be silent

00:21:55the case of the queen and barber and barber will be resumed tomorrow in the crown court

00:22:10the crown court

00:22:17the case you're about to see is fictional but the procedure is legally accurate the characters are played by actors but the jury is selected for men who are not

00:22:24The case you're about to see is fictional, but the procedure is legally accurate.

00:22:44The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the public.

00:22:48Yesterday, the jury heard the first stages of the prosecution case against Harold and

00:22:52Grace Barber, who were accused of manslaughter of Mrs. Barber's mother by neglect.

00:23:01Are you, Professor Thornton Mason, pathologist at the Edward Mansfield Memorial Hospital?

00:23:05I am.

00:23:06On the 3rd of October last year, were you asked to perform a post-mortem examination on the

00:23:10body of Mrs. Alice Ather?

00:23:11Yes.

00:23:12Let me first ask you about the height of the deceased.

00:23:16Her height was 5 foot 7 inches.

00:23:18What would be the normal weight for a woman of that height?

00:23:21I'd say 8 and a half stone.

00:23:23Working on average desirable weights.

00:23:25What did she weigh?

00:23:26Her weight was 5 stone, 8 pounds.

00:23:30The difference in body weight being 2 stone, 13 pounds?

00:23:33Yes, virtually 3 stone.

00:23:34What was the reason for the weight loss?

00:23:36The reason for the weight loss was lack of food, starvation, some dehydration.

00:23:40What state was her body in?

00:23:41It was very thin, wasted, very emaciated.

00:23:44There were bed sores and staining from urine and faeces.

00:23:51The eyes were rather sunken, suggesting some dehydration.

00:23:54The hair was rather matted.

00:23:55I found no food in the stomach or the intestines.

00:24:00On examining her left lung, I found an old tubercular lesion, which had been reactivated.

00:24:07The deceased must have had tuberculosis as a younger woman and recovered from it.

00:24:11When you say reactivated, what do you mean?

00:24:13It had a tuberculosis brain and infected the meninges.

00:24:19The meninges were inflamed.

00:24:22The disease of tuberculosis meningitis, I'd say she'd had it for about 3 weeks.

00:24:25What did you conclude was the cause of death?

00:24:28I concluded that death was due to tuberculosis meningitis.

00:24:31Not to starvation?

00:24:32Proving death by starvation is really a matter of excluding positive evidence of death from other causes.

00:24:37Can you say for how long she'd been starved of food?

00:24:40I'm afraid I can't.

00:24:41I examined the bowel and found no food particles, none whatsoever.

00:24:46This only led me to the conclusion that she had not eaten recently, within days of death.

00:24:50However, due to the state of extreme emaciation, I'd say some weeks.

00:24:54I can't be exact.

00:24:56Is tuberculosis meningitis a wasting disease?

00:24:59In an untreated case, there would be a loss of appetite, difficulty in swallowing,

00:25:03to the extent the victim would waste, yes, simply because of not eating.

00:25:07Are you saying that some of the starvation could have been due to the disease?

00:25:11Some undoubtedly was.

00:25:13Can you say how much starvation was due to the disease?

00:25:15No, I'm afraid I can't.

00:25:16But all of the emaciation was due to starvation?

00:25:19Yes.

00:25:19Do you regard the loss of 3 stone as a dangerous loss?

00:25:24In Mrs Athler's case, yes.

00:25:25When you first saw her body, was it apparent to you that she was dangerously underweight?

00:25:29It was apparent to me that she was dead.

00:25:32I'm sorry.

00:25:34Or was it apparent to you that just prior to death, she would have looked dangerously underweight?

00:25:38Yes.

00:25:39Let me return to the tubercular lesion in the lung.

00:25:42What, in your opinion, was the cause of it being reactivated?

00:25:44In my opinion, it was because she was in an enfeeble state.

00:25:48When the body is run down, the immunity defences obviously collapse.

00:25:52If she was in a starved state, would that reactivate the tuberculosis?

00:25:56Uh, yes.

00:25:57And would that lead to the tuberculosis spreading to the meninges?

00:26:00Eventually, yes.

00:26:02How long would it normally take for the disease to prove fatal?

00:26:04If untreated, it would kill in three to four weeks.

00:26:08And so you maintain it killed Mrs Athler in three?

00:26:09Well, about three.

00:26:11It may have been a few days longer.

00:26:12I can't be exact.

00:26:14What are the clinical features of tuberculous meningitis?

00:26:17In the early stages, there'd be a general loss of appetite, general malaise, mild headaches.

00:26:22The person would feel drowsy, be confused, perhaps irritable.

00:26:27In the later stages, the headache would become more severe.

00:26:30There'd be a stiffening of the neck, creasing confusion, tremulousness, loss of muscle control,

00:26:38difficulty in swallowing, double vision, perhaps with the eye showing a squint.

00:26:42Cranial neck pauses, and finally, a paralysis of an arm or leg, followed by a coma.

00:26:48Is it a disease one could ignore?

00:26:50I would say not.

00:26:52And in the final stages, I'd expect the breathing to be very erratic, stertorous.

00:26:56Thank you, Professor Mason.

00:27:00Professor Mason, you say that Mrs Athler weighed two stones, 13 pounds less,

00:27:07than the desirable weight for a woman of her height and build.

00:27:11Yes.

00:27:11Yes, you see, I don't want the jury to be confused.

00:27:14You're not saying that Mrs Athler actually lost nearly three stones in weight.

00:27:19You're simply stating that she was two stones, 13 pounds less,

00:27:23than she should have been if she was healthy.

00:27:25That's right.

00:27:26Obviously, I have no way of telling how much she weighed before.

00:27:29No, obviously.

00:27:31What actually happens when one stops eating?

00:27:35The metabolism...

00:27:35Well, it's rather a complicated process.

00:27:39The fat becomes the major fuel of the body.

00:27:43The body, in fact, actually begins eating its own fat.

00:27:47Was it not possible for you to work out the length of time that Mrs Athler had starved from the amount of fat that she had used up?

00:27:53No, I had no way of telling the rate she used up, and also there may have been food taken during the period of starvation.

00:27:58One really can't tell.

00:27:59Did she still have fat to use up?

00:28:01She had fat deposits to use up, yes.

00:28:04So she was still a long way from dying of starvation.

00:28:06I wouldn't expect her to die of starvation.

00:28:09It's very unusual to simply die of starvation, especially in the case of an elderly person.

00:28:14The state of impoverishment makes the body prone to other conditions which act faster.

00:28:20A loss of muscle in another person might make them vulnerable to a pre-existing heart disease, for example.

00:28:24So you see, starvation very rarely actually kills.

00:28:28Starvation is the trigger.

00:28:30In this case, it triggered the lesion in the lung, which led to the meningitis.

00:28:35Is it not so that after a few days of not eating, one loses one's appetite?

00:28:41Yes.

00:28:41And that this condition is in fact called anorexia?

00:28:44That is correct.

00:28:45And did you not say that anorexia was a feature of tuberculous meningitis?

00:28:49It is.

00:28:50Is there any confusion with anorexia nervosa?

00:28:55None, my lord.

00:28:55That is a psychological disease involving the inability to eat.

00:28:59It mainly affects teenage girls.

00:29:01I just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

00:29:07I wasn't aware that I had created any, my lord.

00:29:11At what stage of the disease did you say that anorexia became a feature?

00:29:16Almost at the outset.

00:29:18And you say that Mrs Ather had starved for some weeks.

00:29:22Could she have starved for only three weeks?

00:29:24I would say it was more probable she starved for a longer period of time.

00:29:28Three stone in a weight is a lot to lose in three weeks.

00:29:31But could she have lost it in three weeks?

00:29:34If starvation in that three-week period was acute?

00:29:36If no food was taken at all?

00:29:38It would depend on so many things.

00:29:40Diet beforehand, amount of fat, metabolic rate.

00:29:45It would depend a lot on how much water was drunk during the period.

00:29:48Why is that?

00:29:49Well, a body fluid accounts for a very high proportion of the weight loss.

00:29:53If very little water was drunk during the period of starvation,

00:29:56the weight loss would be far greater than if a lot of water was drunk.

00:29:59But did you not say that Mrs Ather was dehydrated?

00:30:01There was some dehydration, yes.

00:30:03Can you say how much?

00:30:04No, I'm afraid I can't.

00:30:05Just a lack of body fluid.

00:30:08Are you saying then that if Mrs Ather drank very little during the starvation period,

00:30:13she could have lost three stones in three weeks?

00:30:16It would still be unlikely.

00:30:17But possible.

00:30:19It's possible.

00:30:20I can't be categoric.

00:30:23Now, three weeks is also the time that you said she had the disease tuberculosis meningitis.

00:30:27Yes.

00:30:28If anorexia is an initial feature of that disease,

00:30:32I suggest she could have lost all three stones during the disease.

00:30:36But I already said it was because she was in an impoverished state

00:30:39that the lesion in the lung was reactivated.

00:30:41No, you've already said that it was because she was in a starved state

00:30:45that the lesion in the lung was reactivated.

00:30:46I don't know what state Mrs Ather was in when the lesion was reactivated.

00:30:49Then why did you say that starvation led to it?

00:30:51I did only say that starvation was a possibility.

00:30:53No, with respect.

00:30:54You said starvation is the trigger.

00:30:57In this case, it triggered the tubercular lesion in the lung.

00:31:00Starvation is a possibility.

00:31:01I made that clear earlier.

00:31:03You see, you said it's a bit of a medical puzzle here.

00:31:07We've been led to believe that because Mrs Ather was starved,

00:31:12the lesion in the lung was reactivated and the disease spread.

00:31:16Yet an early feature of that disease is loss of appetite,

00:31:20which in itself would lead to starvation and emaciation.

00:31:23I think there was some deprivation of food, some deficiency of diet,

00:31:27enough to impoverish the body prior to the reactivation of the lesion.

00:31:30Then considerable starvation as a consequence of the disease.

00:31:34But the total amount of weight loss can be totally accounted for by the disease.

00:31:39It is only a possibility.

00:31:40Yes.

00:31:41At the moment, we do not know which came first,

00:31:43the disease or the starvation.

00:31:44It's rather like the chicken and the egg.

00:31:46I wouldn't put it quite so simply.

00:31:49Might a mere deficiency of diet

00:31:52have weakened the body enough to allow the lesion to reactivate?

00:31:59Might have.

00:32:02We are a long way from starvation.

00:32:06Could the lesion in the lung have reactivated some time

00:32:09before the disease spread to the meninges?

00:32:12It could have.

00:32:13Some months before?

00:32:14Possibly.

00:32:14Would there necessarily be chest symptoms?

00:32:17Coughing?

00:32:18Not necessarily.

00:32:19Even though the lesion had reactivated,

00:32:21it could lie quietly without giving any chest symptoms.

00:32:25So one would not know about it until the disease had spread?

00:32:28That is correct.

00:32:30So what we are saying is that tuberculosis may have appeared

00:32:33before Mrs. Arthur ever went to live with the defendants.

00:32:44You say that the early symptoms of tuberculosis meningitis are mild headaches,

00:32:53general malaise, drowsiness, confusion, irritability.

00:32:56Yes.

00:32:58Would they be a strong enough feature to cause alarm,

00:33:01or might they not be dismissed as the normal pattern of growing old?

00:33:04In an otherwise healthy person,

00:33:06they would be a strong enough feature to cause alarm.

00:33:07What about an old person who was already drowsy, confused, and irritable?

00:33:12In tuberculosis meningitis, I would expect increasing confusion.

00:33:16I think it would be alarming in any event.

00:33:19You say there would be a stiffness of the neck?

00:33:21Yes.

00:33:22In the latter stages, there will be a number of neurological manifestations.

00:33:26And what causes them?

00:33:28The inflamed meninges begin to strangle the cranial nerves which pass through them.

00:33:32A number of nerves were involved.

00:33:34Yes, this horror story of symptoms that you've given us,

00:33:38I can only describe them as that,

00:33:40is no more than a list of the neurological manifestations you would expect

00:33:44following the involvement of the nerves.

00:33:46Yes.

00:33:47Yes.

00:33:47Double vision, a squint, tremulousness, loss of muscle control,

00:33:51difficulty in swallowing, neck pauses,

00:33:52they are all neurological.

00:33:54They are.

00:33:54What usually is the ultimate fate of a nerve that is strangled in this way?

00:34:01The nerve is destroyed, ultimately.

00:34:04Were any of the nerves destroyed?

00:34:05No, but many were involved.

00:34:07Involved in being strangled, but not destroyed?

00:34:10That is so.

00:34:11Was the spinal cord involved?

00:34:13The inflammation had involved it, yes.

00:34:15But was it damaged to the extent that you can definitely say

00:34:18Mrs. Ather would have experienced paralysis of an arm or a leg?

00:34:22I cannot definitely say, but I think some paralysis was very likely.

00:34:27Is it not so that when a nerve is damaged but not destroyed,

00:34:30it is very difficult to assess the extent of that damage

00:34:33unless the patient is alive to testify?

00:34:35Yes.

00:34:36So we do not know for certain, therefore,

00:34:39to what extent Mrs. Ather demonstrated those manifestations.

00:34:43They are the clinical features of the disease.

00:34:46The clinical features of the later stages of the disease, am I right?

00:34:50Yes.

00:34:52Finally, you say that it would lead to coma and difficulty in breathing.

00:34:56Now, breathing in coma would be light, wouldn't it?

00:34:58The difficulty would still be noticeable.

00:35:00Perhaps not so if that coma were mistaken for sleep.

00:35:04Well, she would look extremely ill.

00:35:06One could not possibly wake her up.

00:35:09No, I cannot say it will be mistaken for sleep.

00:35:11Provided one attempted to wake her up.

00:35:15Thank you, Professor Mason.

00:35:18Professor, given the condition of Mrs. Ather,

00:35:20the muscle wastage, the emaciation, the extent of the disease,

00:35:24can you give her some indication

00:35:25as to what period of time before death

00:35:27she would have been incapable of walking on her own?

00:35:31It would be an opinion.

00:35:33I think it would be of some value.

00:35:36I don't imagine she will be able to walk unaided

00:35:39during the last two weeks of her life.

00:35:42She would have been totally bedridden?

00:35:44Totally.

00:35:46Thank you, Professor Mason.

00:35:48That, my lord, concludes the case for the prosecution.

00:35:51Is your name Grace Barber?

00:35:56It is.

00:35:58And with your husband, Harold,

00:35:59do you both own and live at the New Inn High Street Lampsport?

00:36:03We do.

00:36:04For how long have you resided at the New Inn?

00:36:07Since the 24th of May last year.

00:36:11What have you been doing for some years before that?

00:36:14Well, Harry and me,

00:36:15we've been working as relief tenants for four years.

00:36:18You know, just moving from pub to pub.

00:36:21And before that,

00:36:22we were the tenants of the Bell in Fulchester.

00:36:25And during this period of moving about,

00:36:27were you ever in contact with your sister, Mrs. Shepard,

00:36:30as regards your mother's welfare?

00:36:32Yes.

00:36:34Rebecca used to ring me up,

00:36:36say it was time we took our share of looking after Mum.

00:36:39But we couldn't,

00:36:40because we were moving around so much.

00:36:43Now, on the 3rd of July last year,

00:36:45what happened?

00:36:46Well, Rebecca brought Mum round to us,

00:36:50without any warning.

00:36:52She said she'd had enough of looking after her,

00:36:54and it was our turn.

00:36:55Well, I was furious with her.

00:36:57I mean, just dumping Mum on us like that,

00:36:59without any warning.

00:37:00And she looked so thin, almost...

00:37:03well, skinny.

00:37:05When was the last time you had seen her?

00:37:07When Dad died, two years before.

00:37:10And would you say that there was a great difference in her appearance?

00:37:12Oh, I'll say.

00:37:13She looked as though she hadn't been fed.

00:37:16Was she able to walk on her own?

00:37:18Well, with a stick.

00:37:21Did your sister, Mrs. Shepard,

00:37:22say anything about your mother's medication?

00:37:25No, she didn't.

00:37:26Did she tell you that your mother

00:37:28had been regularly attended to

00:37:29by a doctor because of her arthritis?

00:37:31No.

00:37:32And did she leave any medication with you?

00:37:35No, she didn't.

00:37:36After she left,

00:37:38what transpired between yourself,

00:37:41your husband,

00:37:42and your mother, Mrs. Arthur?

00:37:44Well, I didn't want to take the responsibility for her.

00:37:47But Harry, he talked me round.

00:37:49He said, well,

00:37:49now we owned our own place,

00:37:51we owed her something.

00:37:52So we gave her a bedroom upstairs

00:37:54at the back of the inn.

00:37:55Yes.

00:37:56And was there a toilet and bathroom

00:37:57on the upstairs floor?

00:37:59Yes.

00:37:59Next door to her room.

00:38:01Did your mother say why

00:38:03she had difficulty in walking?

00:38:04Yes, she said she had a lot of pain

00:38:06in her knees and in her ankles.

00:38:08Did she describe what sort of pain?

00:38:10She said it was an arthritic pain.

00:38:12Now, did she tell you

00:38:13that she had been seeing a doctor?

00:38:15Oh, yes.

00:38:16But she said he hadn't done her any good.

00:38:18And did she say anything else

00:38:19as regards to the doctor?

00:38:21Yes.

00:38:22She said she hadn't liked him

00:38:23because he'd spoken about

00:38:24putting her in a home.

00:38:26Did you have a GP of your own

00:38:28at this time?

00:38:29Well, no, because we'd only just moved

00:38:31into the village

00:38:31and we hadn't needed one.

00:38:33Well, and did you consider

00:38:34fetching a doctor to your mother?

00:38:36Well, no.

00:38:37I mean, it didn't seem necessary.

00:38:39And anyway, she said

00:38:40she didn't trust doctors

00:38:41and I was able to relieve the pain.

00:38:45How were you able to do that?

00:38:46Well, I used heat treatment.

00:38:48I've got a sunray lamp

00:38:50and it's got an infrared setting

00:38:51and I used to use that on her legs.

00:38:54How often?

00:38:55Oh, well, every day

00:38:56for about half an hour.

00:38:57And then I also put

00:38:58hot water bottles

00:38:59against her joints.

00:39:01And how did that help your mother?

00:39:02Well, she said it helped

00:39:03to relieve the pain a lot.

00:39:05Did she stay in bed much?

00:39:07Well, she stayed in bed

00:39:09all the time

00:39:09except to go to the toilet.

00:39:11She never came downstairs?

00:39:12Never.

00:39:14Was she able

00:39:15to come downstairs on her own?

00:39:17Oh, yes, she was perfectly able.

00:39:18She just didn't want to.

00:39:20Did you ever encourage her

00:39:21to come downstairs?

00:39:23Yes.

00:39:24But there was only the bar, you see,

00:39:25and she never did approve of drinking.

00:39:27Yes, now let me ask you

00:39:28about the drinking.

00:39:29Did your mother have water

00:39:31in her room?

00:39:33Well, we supplied her

00:39:34with a jug and a glass.

00:39:35And did she drink a lot of water?

00:39:37No, very little.

00:39:39How often did you have

00:39:40to refill that jug?

00:39:41Well, I changed the water

00:39:42in it every day

00:39:44even though she'd hardly touched it.

00:39:46What was your mother's mood

00:39:48after she came to live with you?

00:39:50She was very depressed.

00:39:51Did she talk about

00:39:53your sister at all?

00:39:54Yeah.

00:39:55She said she never wanted

00:39:56to see Rebecca again

00:39:57after the way she'd treated her.

00:39:59Did your mother have any interests?

00:40:01Did she read at all?

00:40:02No, she didn't read.

00:40:03Did she have a television

00:40:04in her room?

00:40:05No.

00:40:05And what about a radio?

00:40:06Well, we offered her one

00:40:07but she said she didn't want one.

00:40:09So what did she do all day?

00:40:11Well, nothing.

00:40:11She just lay there.

00:40:13And it was around this time

00:40:14that she expressed

00:40:15a disinterest in leaving her room

00:40:17except to go to the toilet?

00:40:19Yes.

00:40:19Was she capable

00:40:21of washing herself?

00:40:22Oh, she was perfectly capable

00:40:24but she got very lazy about it.

00:40:27When she refused

00:40:28to get up to wash

00:40:29I always made sure

00:40:30she had a bed bath all over.

00:40:32Which you gave her?

00:40:33Oh, yes.

00:40:33Yes.

00:40:34What were the arrangements

00:40:35for feeding her?

00:40:38Well, she wouldn't have much

00:40:39for breakfast

00:40:40just a cup of tea

00:40:40and a piece of toast

00:40:41and then, well,

00:40:43we started off

00:40:43by giving her two meals a day

00:40:45but she just wasn't eating

00:40:46so we made it one

00:40:48at lunchtime

00:40:48and we thought that

00:40:50well, as she was lying

00:40:51in bed all day

00:40:52doing nothing

00:40:52she didn't really need

00:40:54two meals a day.

00:40:55And did she always eat

00:40:57what you prepared for her?

00:40:58Well, no,

00:40:58that was the thing, you see.

00:40:59I mean,

00:40:59we always made sure

00:41:01that she had it

00:41:02but sometimes

00:41:02she just wasn't hungry.

00:41:04I mean,

00:41:04a whole day would go by

00:41:05and she'd eat nothing.

00:41:07And didn't that alarm you?

00:41:09No.

00:41:10I mean,

00:41:10if she wasn't hungry

00:41:11didn't see much point

00:41:13in making her eat.

00:41:14Did you ever sit down

00:41:15with her

00:41:16and coax her to eat?

00:41:17No.

00:41:19When she did eat

00:41:20what were the circumstances?

00:41:22Well,

00:41:22one of us used to

00:41:23take it up to her

00:41:24leave it with her

00:41:26and then she'd eat it

00:41:27on her own.

00:41:28Could you be sure

00:41:29that she ate it?

00:41:30Well,

00:41:31the plate was clean.

00:41:32Were you ever aware

00:41:33after taking her up a meal

00:41:35and leaving it with her

00:41:36that she got up

00:41:37on her own

00:41:38and went to the toilet?

00:41:39Well,

00:41:40I've no idea.

00:41:41I mean,

00:41:42you can't hear a thing

00:41:43what's going up upstairs

00:41:44when you're downstairs

00:41:45in the bar.

00:41:47Did your mother

00:41:47ever complain

00:41:48about the food

00:41:49that you gave her?

00:41:50Oh, yes.

00:41:51She was always complaining.

00:41:52Would you describe her

00:41:53as irritable?

00:41:54Yes, very.

00:41:56How did this affect

00:41:57the relationship

00:41:57between your husband

00:41:58and your mother?

00:42:00Well,

00:42:00it became very bad.

00:42:02I mean,

00:42:03I said really

00:42:03that she'd have to

00:42:04go into a home.

00:42:05And did you take

00:42:06any action

00:42:07as regards

00:42:07finding a home for her?

00:42:08Well,

00:42:09no,

00:42:10because I didn't

00:42:10really know

00:42:11how to go about it.

00:42:13Around this time,

00:42:14were you yourself

00:42:15seeing Dr. Little,

00:42:16the GP in the village?

00:42:18Yes,

00:42:18I had to go

00:42:20into hospital

00:42:20to have an operation.

00:42:22Can you tell us

00:42:22the nature

00:42:23of that operation?

00:42:25Hysterectomy.

00:42:26What day was fixed

00:42:28for you to go

00:42:28into hospital?

00:42:2925th of September.

00:42:31And did you tell

00:42:32Dr. Little

00:42:32that you were caring

00:42:33for an elderly mother?

00:42:35Yes.

00:42:35Did you ever

00:42:37ask him

00:42:37to attend her?

00:42:39No.

00:42:40I didn't think

00:42:40it was necessary

00:42:41and I didn't want

00:42:42to waste his time.

00:42:44And I mean,

00:42:44Mum didn't seem ill,

00:42:46she just seemed

00:42:47old and bad-tempered.

00:42:49And were you

00:42:49continuing with

00:42:50the heat treatment

00:42:51at this time?

00:42:51Well,

00:42:52I was still using

00:42:53the hot water bottles

00:42:53but I'd stop

00:42:54using the lamp.

00:42:55Did she complain

00:42:56of pain?

00:42:57No.

00:42:58Was she ill-looking?

00:43:00No,

00:43:00well,

00:43:00she looked thin

00:43:01but then she

00:43:02always looked thin.

00:43:04How was she eating

00:43:05by this time?

00:43:06Well,

00:43:07much the same

00:43:08as before really.

00:43:08I mean,

00:43:09sometimes she wouldn't

00:43:10eat and sometimes

00:43:11you'd take up her food

00:43:13and then you'd go

00:43:14and pick the plate up

00:43:15and it was usually

00:43:16clean.

00:43:17Did she complain

00:43:17of anything else?

00:43:19Yes,

00:43:19she did start to complain

00:43:20about having headaches

00:43:21and I used to give

00:43:22a discipline for those.

00:43:24Now,

00:43:24when did she start

00:43:25having those headaches?

00:43:26About two weeks

00:43:27before I went

00:43:28into hospital.

00:43:29Did you have

00:43:30any idea

00:43:31that your mother

00:43:32might be ill?

00:43:33Seriously ill?

00:43:35None at all.

00:43:37Immediately prior

00:43:38to your going

00:43:38into hospital

00:43:39on the 25th of September

00:43:40was your mother

00:43:41still capable

00:43:42of getting out

00:43:43of bed on her own?

00:43:45Well,

00:43:45she could get out

00:43:46of bed on her own

00:43:47but she had to be

00:43:48helped to the toilet.

00:43:49She was weaker.

00:43:50Well,

00:43:50we thought it was

00:43:51because she just

00:43:52lay in bed all day.

00:43:54And on the 25th of September

00:43:56you went into hospital.

00:43:58Are you fully recovered

00:43:59from that operation?

00:44:01Yes,

00:44:01thank you.

00:44:03How often

00:44:04did Mr Barber

00:44:04visit you

00:44:05in hospital?

00:44:07Oh,

00:44:07twice a day,

00:44:08mornings and afternoons.

00:44:09And was your mother

00:44:09discussed?

00:44:10Yes,

00:44:11he used to tell me

00:44:11how she was.

00:44:13Did he seem alarmed

00:44:14by her state of health?

00:44:15No,

00:44:16I think he was

00:44:17more worried about me.

00:44:19And on the 1st of October

00:44:20did you hear

00:44:21that your mother

00:44:21had died?

00:44:23Yes.

00:44:24Harry rang me up

00:44:25to tell me.

00:44:26Thank you,

00:44:27Mrs Barber.

00:44:27Mrs Barber,

00:44:29you had not seen

00:44:30your mother

00:44:30for two years.

00:44:31Is that right?

00:44:32Yes,

00:44:32that's right.

00:44:33Why was that?

00:44:34Well,

00:44:34there was never any time.

00:44:36What about Christmas?

00:44:37Birthdays?

00:44:38Did you never try

00:44:38to see her?

00:44:39Well,

00:44:39no,

00:44:40because we were

00:44:40always in some

00:44:41different pub.

00:44:42I suggest you

00:44:42could not be bothered

00:44:43with your mother.

00:44:44I suggest you

00:44:45were content

00:44:45to let your sister

00:44:46take all the responsibility.

00:44:48I was content

00:44:48to,

00:44:49yes,

00:44:49because she had

00:44:50her,

00:44:50we didn't,

00:44:51and it was

00:44:52impossible for us

00:44:52to.

00:44:54On the 3rd of July,

00:44:55Mrs Ather was brought

00:44:55to you by your sister

00:44:56who said she'd

00:44:57had enough

00:44:57of looking after her.

00:44:59Yes,

00:44:59that's right.

00:45:00And you stated

00:45:00that Mrs Shepard

00:45:01said nothing

00:45:02about your mother

00:45:02having been on medication

00:45:03or having seen a doctor

00:45:05because of arthritis.

00:45:06Yes.

00:45:06Have you heard

00:45:07Mrs Shepard

00:45:07give evidence

00:45:08under oath?

00:45:09Oh,

00:45:09yes,

00:45:10I heard her.

00:45:10Mrs Shepard

00:45:11has stated

00:45:11that she informed

00:45:12you of both these facts.

00:45:13Well,

00:45:13she's a bloody liar.

00:45:15Did she leave

00:45:15a bottle of pills?

00:45:16No.

00:45:17You already know

00:45:18what a bloody liar

00:45:19she is.

00:45:20Would you mind

00:45:20your hand,

00:45:21Mrs. Glee?

00:45:21It was her

00:45:21that starved her,

00:45:22not us.

00:45:23She's already lied

00:45:24about that.

00:45:25Why shouldn't

00:45:25she lie

00:45:26about everything else?

00:45:26Mrs Barber!

00:45:28I can't allow

00:45:29you to shout.

00:45:33She's always

00:45:33been a liar.

00:45:36I always took

00:45:37the blame

00:45:37for everything

00:45:38she did.

00:45:38Always.

00:45:54The case

00:45:58of the Queen

00:45:59and Barber

00:46:00will be concluded

00:46:01tomorrow

00:46:01in the Crown Court.

00:46:03The case

00:46:30you're about

00:46:30to see

00:46:31is fiction

00:46:31but the procedure

00:46:32is legally accurate.

00:46:34The characters

00:46:34are played

00:46:34by actors

00:46:35but the jury

00:46:35is selected

00:46:36from members

00:46:37of the public.

00:46:38During the past

00:46:38two days

00:46:39the jury

00:46:39has heard evidence

00:46:40concerning the alleged

00:46:41manslaughter

00:46:42by neglect

00:46:43of Mrs. Alice

00:46:44Ather

00:46:44by her daughter

00:46:45and son-in-law.

00:46:46The defendant

00:46:47Grace Barber

00:46:47is being cross-examined.

00:46:50You say

00:46:51that when your mother

00:46:52came to live with you

00:46:52she looked thin

00:46:53almost skinny

00:46:55as though she

00:46:55hadn't been fed.

00:46:57Yes.

00:46:58Under your care

00:46:58did she appear

00:46:59to look any better?

00:47:02No.

00:47:03So she remained

00:47:03thin almost skinny

00:47:05as though she hadn't

00:47:05been fed?

00:47:07Well it was just

00:47:08the way she looked.

00:47:09Did she look ill?

00:47:10Not particularly.

00:47:12You thought she looked well?

00:47:13No.

00:47:15Then I suggest

00:47:15she must have looked ill.

00:47:17Well she didn't look

00:47:18well

00:47:18but she didn't look ill.

00:47:20Surely

00:47:20if she didn't look well

00:47:21she must have looked ill.

00:47:23I don't see how.

00:47:24If I said to you

00:47:25you do not look well

00:47:26what am I saying to you?

00:47:29You're confusing me.

00:47:31It is not I

00:47:31who's being confusing.

00:47:34Well

00:47:34she looked much the same.

00:47:36So why did you not

00:47:37call a doctor?

00:47:38Tell Dr. Little.

00:47:40I didn't think

00:47:40there was any need.

00:47:41She looked unwell.

00:47:42I think we've established that.

00:47:44She had arthritic pain

00:47:45she spent nearly all day

00:47:46in bed

00:47:46sometimes not eating

00:47:47and you say

00:47:48there was no need

00:47:48to call a doctor?

00:47:50Well it didn't seem

00:47:50that serious.

00:47:51What happens to someone

00:47:52who does not eat?

00:47:54Look

00:47:55she wasn't hungry.

00:47:57It wasn't as though

00:47:58she couldn't eat.

00:48:00Like I said

00:48:01I mean

00:48:01she lay in bed all day

00:48:02doing nothing.

00:48:03She didn't need much food.

00:48:05She ate all she wanted.

00:48:07What were the arrangements

00:48:07for collecting

00:48:08your mother's pension?

00:48:10Oh well

00:48:11I collect it.

00:48:12I got mum to sign a letter.

00:48:14What became of the money?

00:48:15Well put it in her bank.

00:48:17You and Mr. Barber

00:48:18spoke about putting

00:48:19your mother in a home

00:48:20is that right?

00:48:21Yes.

00:48:21And you say

00:48:22that the reason

00:48:23you did not pursue

00:48:24this course

00:48:24was because

00:48:25you did not know

00:48:26how to go about it.

00:48:27Yes.

00:48:28Are you aware

00:48:28that there are

00:48:29private nursing homes?

00:48:31Yes.

00:48:32And were you aware

00:48:32that after selling

00:48:33her house in Derby

00:48:34your mother

00:48:34had a considerable sum

00:48:35in her bank account

00:48:36a sum exceeding

00:48:38£50,000

00:48:38which would have

00:48:39amply covered

00:48:40such expenses?

00:48:42Well we didn't

00:48:42think about it.

00:48:44You didn't think

00:48:45about £50,000?

00:48:46Well not in that respect.

00:48:48In what respect

00:48:48did you think about it?

00:48:49I suggest to you

00:48:51Mrs. Barber

00:48:51that £50,000

00:48:52must have been

00:48:53a factor

00:48:54operating on your mind

00:48:55in some way.

00:48:57I don't know

00:48:57what you mean.

00:48:58My lord

00:48:58what is the relevance

00:48:59of my lonely friend's

00:49:01questions?

00:49:02Mr. Saunders.

00:49:03My lord

00:49:03I mention the £50,000

00:49:04because it is a factor

00:49:06which may have operated

00:49:07on the defendants' minds

00:49:08making them indifferent

00:49:10as to whether

00:49:11Mrs. Ather lived or not.

00:49:12I've no objection

00:49:15to your exploring it.

00:49:18I put it to you

00:49:19Mrs. Barber

00:49:19that £50,000

00:49:20was a motive

00:49:21for not caring

00:49:22whether your mother

00:49:23lived or died.

00:49:24I did care.

00:49:26Neither of us

00:49:27wanted her to die.

00:49:30Mr. Barber

00:49:31on the 3rd of July

00:49:32we have heard

00:49:33Mrs. Ather was brought

00:49:35round to the new inn

00:49:36and left in the care

00:49:37of you and your wife.

00:49:39Yes

00:49:39by Rebecca

00:49:40my sister-in-law.

00:49:41And what was

00:49:41your wife's reaction?

00:49:43Well she was furious.

00:49:45She didn't want

00:49:45the responsibility

00:49:46of looking after

00:49:46the old woman.

00:49:48She accused Rebecca

00:49:49of just dumping her on us.

00:49:51And what did you

00:49:52say to your wife?

00:49:53I told her

00:49:54I thought it was

00:49:54our turn to look

00:49:55after the old lady.

00:49:56Rebecca had had her

00:49:56for two years.

00:49:58Now we had a pub

00:49:59of our own

00:49:59we had the facilities.

00:50:01And did you

00:50:01persuade your wife

00:50:02that you should

00:50:03take joint responsibility

00:50:04for her mother?

00:50:06Yes.

00:50:07Even though

00:50:07she wasn't

00:50:08your own mother?

00:50:09Yes.

00:50:10Is your own mother

00:50:11still alive?

00:50:12No, she died

00:50:13four years ago.

00:50:15And was she

00:50:15living with you?

00:50:16No, she was in hospital

00:50:17in a psychogeriatric ward.

00:50:20Did you ever

00:50:20look after her

00:50:21for any period?

00:50:23Yes, I looked

00:50:23after her for three years

00:50:24before Grace

00:50:25and I got married.

00:50:27Now what condition

00:50:28was Mrs. Ather in

00:50:30when she came

00:50:30to live with you?

00:50:31Well she looked

00:50:32very thin

00:50:33almost bony.

00:50:36Did she look

00:50:37underfed to you?

00:50:38Well not particularly

00:50:39I just thought

00:50:40she looked thin.

00:50:41Are you aware

00:50:42that your wife

00:50:42considered her

00:50:43underfed looking?

00:50:44Oh I know

00:50:44she said underfed

00:50:45but to me

00:50:46she was just

00:50:47thin looking.

00:50:48You thought

00:50:48it was a natural

00:50:49thinness?

00:50:50Well yes

00:50:50I mean she was

00:50:5173 after all

00:50:52and well

00:50:53she'd a thin build.

00:50:55Where did she

00:50:56spend most of her day?

00:50:58Upstairs in bed.

00:50:59She spent all of it

00:51:00there

00:51:00except to get up

00:51:01and go to the toilet.

00:51:02What was her mood

00:51:04generally?

00:51:06I was pretty depressed.

00:51:08And to what

00:51:08did you attribute

00:51:09that depression?

00:51:11Being dumped

00:51:12by Rebecca.

00:51:14Did she have

00:51:14a big appetite?

00:51:15Oh no

00:51:16very small.

00:51:17Quite often

00:51:18I'd take a meal up

00:51:19and she'd say

00:51:19Harry I'm just

00:51:20not hungry today.

00:51:22Well I tried

00:51:22to make her eat

00:51:23but

00:51:23you can't make

00:51:25somebody eat

00:51:26if they don't want to

00:51:26can you?

00:51:27Did you ever leave

00:51:28her with a meal?

00:51:30Yes quite often.

00:51:32And did she eat it?

00:51:33Well sometimes

00:51:34she picked

00:51:34sometimes she ate

00:51:35the lot.

00:51:36Were you ever

00:51:37present when she

00:51:38ate the lot?

00:51:38No.

00:51:39No.

00:51:40Why not?

00:51:41Well we had a pub

00:51:41to run.

00:51:42I mean why should

00:51:43we stay with her?

00:51:44She was an adult

00:51:45capable of feeding

00:51:46herself

00:51:47not a child.

00:51:48Was there an

00:51:49occasion when

00:51:50Mrs Arthur accused

00:51:51you of something?

00:51:52Yes towards the

00:51:53end of July

00:51:53I took her up

00:51:55some chicken casserole.

00:51:56It was what we were

00:51:57serving in the pub.

00:51:58She looked at it

00:51:59and then she said

00:52:00what did I think

00:52:02I was trying to do?

00:52:03Poison her?

00:52:04And then she threw

00:52:05it on the floor.

00:52:06She didn't even

00:52:06taste it?

00:52:07No no.

00:52:07She just looked at it

00:52:09and then chucked it.

00:52:10What else did she say?

00:52:13Well she suggested

00:52:14that we wanted her

00:52:14out of the way.

00:52:16That it would serve

00:52:18us right if she

00:52:18starved herself to death.

00:52:20Had she ever behaved

00:52:22in this irrational

00:52:22way before?

00:52:23No no not quite

00:52:24like that.

00:52:25She'd be going a bit

00:52:26funny a bit morbid

00:52:27saying how nobody

00:52:28wanted her.

00:52:29Nobody cared

00:52:29whether she lived

00:52:30or died.

00:52:31I mean she said

00:52:31that a few times.

00:52:32Did she ever say

00:52:33anything else funny?

00:52:35Well she'd get

00:52:35confused.

00:52:37Say that nobody

00:52:38had been up to see

00:52:38her all day

00:52:39when one of us

00:52:40had been up there

00:52:40only half an hour

00:52:41before.

00:52:41Things like that.

00:52:43Well she'd forget

00:52:43where she was.

00:52:44What time of day

00:52:45it was.

00:52:46Did you and your

00:52:46wife ever talk

00:52:47about putting her

00:52:48in a home?

00:52:50We talked about it

00:52:51but I was against

00:52:52the idea.

00:52:53Why were you

00:52:54against the idea?

00:52:55Because I remember

00:52:56how horrible it was

00:52:57putting my own

00:52:57mother into a

00:52:58psychogeriatric ward

00:53:00and just because

00:53:02Mrs. Arthur was

00:53:03difficulty there

00:53:04wasn't any reason

00:53:05to stick her away.

00:53:07Did your wife

00:53:07express an opinion?

00:53:09Yes she felt

00:53:10the same as me

00:53:10and we neither of us

00:53:12really knew how to

00:53:13go about putting her

00:53:13in a home.

00:53:15Anyway it meant

00:53:15dumping the old lady

00:53:16and she'd been

00:53:17dumped once already.

00:53:18Grace and me

00:53:19we just wanted

00:53:20the best for her.

00:53:21A few days afterwards

00:53:22did you receive a

00:53:23visit from Rebecca

00:53:24Shepard your wife's

00:53:25sister?

00:53:26Yes.

00:53:27She wanted to see

00:53:28her mother.

00:53:29And where was your

00:53:30wife at the time?

00:53:31She was at the

00:53:31doctor's Dr. Liddell's

00:53:32in the village.

00:53:34Did you allow

00:53:34Mrs. Shepard to

00:53:35see her mother?

00:53:36No I didn't.

00:53:37Why not?

00:53:38Because her mother

00:53:39didn't want to see her.

00:53:40She'd said so on

00:53:41many occasions.

00:53:42She never wanted

00:53:43to see or speak to

00:53:44Rebecca again after

00:53:45what she'd done.

00:53:46Did you tell this

00:53:47to Mrs. Shepard?

00:53:48Yes.

00:53:49She was very angry

00:53:50but I wouldn't let

00:53:51her go upstairs

00:53:52though she pleaded.

00:53:54And did she then

00:53:55go away?

00:53:57Eventually

00:53:57yes.

00:53:58Now I want to

00:53:59bring you forward

00:54:00to the 25th of

00:54:01September the day

00:54:02your wife went

00:54:02into hospital.

00:54:04Was she worried

00:54:05about her operation?

00:54:06Oh very worried

00:54:06yes.

00:54:08She'd never been

00:54:08in hospital before.

00:54:10Did it cause you

00:54:11any anxiety?

00:54:12Very much so.

00:54:14Did you have any

00:54:15bar staff or

00:54:16helpers at the

00:54:17new inn?

00:54:17No none.

00:54:18I was on my own

00:54:19completely.

00:54:21And during this

00:54:21week when did

00:54:22you visit your

00:54:23wife?

00:54:24Every morning

00:54:24every afternoon

00:54:25for an hour

00:54:25each time.

00:54:27While running

00:54:28the pub single

00:54:29handed and

00:54:30visiting your

00:54:30wife in hospital

00:54:31were you also

00:54:32looking after

00:54:33Mrs. Arthur

00:54:33on your own?

00:54:35I was.

00:54:36How would you

00:54:37describe her

00:54:38condition during

00:54:39this week?

00:54:40She was very

00:54:41sleepy.

00:54:42She complained

00:54:43of headaches a lot.

00:54:44I gave her

00:54:44discipline for them.

00:54:45Yes she had a

00:54:47jug of water

00:54:47is that so?

00:54:48Yes.

00:54:49Did she drink

00:54:50very much of it?

00:54:51No hardly

00:54:52drank any

00:54:53just sips

00:54:54now and again.

00:54:55And how did

00:54:55she look

00:54:56physically?

00:54:57Oh she didn't

00:54:58and bony like

00:54:58she always looked.

00:55:00Was she confused?

00:55:01No more than

00:55:02usual.

00:55:04During this week

00:55:05the final week

00:55:06of her life

00:55:07did she eat

00:55:08at all?

00:55:09Well I took

00:55:10her food but

00:55:10she didn't

00:55:11take

00:55:11she didn't

00:55:12touch very

00:55:13much of it.

00:55:14And what

00:55:14do you mean

00:55:14by that?

00:55:15Well I took

00:55:16her up her

00:55:16lunch as usual

00:55:17left it

00:55:18and when I

00:55:19came back

00:55:19it looked

00:55:21as though

00:55:21she'd eaten

00:55:21some of it

00:55:22though never

00:55:23very much.

00:55:24And did that

00:55:25worry you at

00:55:25all?

00:55:26No I was

00:55:27more worried

00:55:27about my

00:55:28wife in

00:55:28hospital.

00:55:30What about

00:55:31going to the

00:55:31toilet?

00:55:31Could she

00:55:32manage that

00:55:32on her own?

00:55:33No I had

00:55:33to help her.

00:55:34She was weak?

00:55:36Yes she was.

00:55:37Did you

00:55:38consider that

00:55:38she might be

00:55:39ill?

00:55:39Well I

00:55:41thought it

00:55:42was because

00:55:43she lay

00:55:43in bed

00:55:44so much

00:55:44all day.

00:55:47On the

00:55:4730th of

00:55:48September

00:55:48Friday

00:55:49evening

00:55:49what did

00:55:50you observe

00:55:51about

00:55:51Mrs Arthur?

00:55:53Well she

00:55:54hadn't eaten

00:55:54that day

00:55:54at all.

00:55:56She was

00:55:56very drowsy

00:55:57so I

00:55:58let her

00:55:58sleep.

00:55:59The pub

00:56:00was busy

00:56:00I was on

00:56:01my feet

00:56:02all night.

00:56:04But before

00:56:05I went to

00:56:05bed I

00:56:06looked in

00:56:06on her

00:56:06and she

00:56:08seemed to

00:56:08be asleep.

00:56:09so I

00:56:10didn't

00:56:10disturb her.

00:56:12Did you

00:56:12go right

00:56:12into the

00:56:13room?

00:56:13No I

00:56:14just stood

00:56:14in the

00:56:14doorway and

00:56:15spoke to

00:56:15her.

00:56:16What

00:56:17happened

00:56:17the next

00:56:17morning?

00:56:18I got

00:56:19up and

00:56:20looked in

00:56:20on her

00:56:20with a

00:56:21cup of

00:56:21tea and

00:56:23I

00:56:24couldn't

00:56:24wake her.

00:56:25She was

00:56:26cold,

00:56:27not breathing.

00:56:29I called

00:56:30Dr.

00:56:30Little.

00:56:31Did he

00:56:32confirm that

00:56:32she was

00:56:32dead?

00:56:33Yes.

00:56:33Thank you

00:56:35Mr.

00:56:35Barber.

00:56:37Mr.

00:56:38Barber on

00:56:38the 3rd of

00:56:39July you

00:56:39successfully

00:56:40persuaded your

00:56:40wife that

00:56:41the two of

00:56:41you ought to

00:56:42take your

00:56:42share of

00:56:43responsibility

00:56:44for looking

00:56:44after Mrs.

00:56:45Ather.

00:56:45Yes.

00:56:46What do you

00:56:47understand by

00:56:47the phrase

00:56:48taking

00:56:48responsibility

00:56:49when it

00:56:49applies to

00:56:50the care of

00:56:51another person?

00:56:52It means

00:56:52looking after

00:56:53them.

00:56:54In what

00:56:54way?

00:56:55In what

00:56:55way does

00:56:55it mean

00:56:55looking after

00:56:56them?

00:56:56Well making

00:56:57sure they're

00:56:57well fed.

00:56:59Does it

00:56:59mean in

00:56:59your

00:57:00understanding

00:57:00making sure

00:57:01there's a

00:57:01proper supply

00:57:02of the

00:57:02necessaries

00:57:03of life?

00:57:04Yes I

00:57:04suppose so.

00:57:05You suppose?

00:57:07Well you

00:57:07put it better

00:57:08than me.

00:57:09Forget how

00:57:09I put it.

00:57:11Do you

00:57:11agree with

00:57:12the sentiment

00:57:12behind that

00:57:13definition?

00:57:13Yes.

00:57:14Very well.

00:57:15Let us

00:57:16keep it

00:57:16in mind.

00:57:17You say

00:57:18she looked

00:57:18thin almost

00:57:19bony when

00:57:20she came to

00:57:21live with

00:57:21you.

00:57:21What exactly

00:57:22do you

00:57:22mean by

00:57:22bony?

00:57:23She

00:57:23looked skinny.

00:57:25Do you

00:57:25mean so

00:57:25skinny that

00:57:26her bones

00:57:26were protruding?

00:57:27Yes.

00:57:28But you

00:57:28did not

00:57:29think she

00:57:29looked

00:57:29underfed?

00:57:31Well I

00:57:32thought that

00:57:32she was

00:57:32underfed

00:57:33looking but

00:57:33I didn't

00:57:34actually think

00:57:34that she

00:57:34was underfed.

00:57:35You regarded

00:57:36her as

00:57:36underfed

00:57:37looking but

00:57:37not underfed?

00:57:39Well it

00:57:39depends on

00:57:39how you

00:57:40say it.

00:57:41I mean if

00:57:41you say

00:57:41that somebody

00:57:42is stupid

00:57:42looking it

00:57:43doesn't follow

00:57:44that they

00:57:44are in fact

00:57:45stupid does

00:57:45it?

00:57:47Did you

00:57:47consider that

00:57:47one meal a

00:57:48day was

00:57:48sufficient for

00:57:49an old

00:57:49person in

00:57:49that state?

00:57:50Well yes

00:57:51she wouldn't

00:57:51eat too.

00:57:52Like my

00:57:52wife said she

00:57:52spent all

00:57:53day in bed

00:57:53she never used

00:57:54up any energy.

00:57:55Did you

00:57:58there were

00:57:58days when

00:57:59Mrs Atherett

00:57:59had nothing?

00:58:00Yes because

00:58:01she wasn't

00:58:01hungry.

00:58:02Then there

00:58:02must have

00:58:02been occasions

00:58:02when she

00:58:03had only

00:58:03one meal

00:58:04in two days

00:58:04would you

00:58:04agree?

00:58:05Look I

00:58:05never kept

00:58:05a record

00:58:06I had a

00:58:06pub to run

00:58:07downstairs.

00:58:08She ate

00:58:08all she

00:58:08wanted.

00:58:09I wasn't

00:58:09going to

00:58:09force food

00:58:10on her.

00:58:11Despite

00:58:11the fact

00:58:11she threatened

00:58:12to starve

00:58:12herself to

00:58:13death?

00:58:22You cite

00:58:23this incident

00:58:24of the

00:58:24thrown food

00:58:25and the

00:58:25accusation

00:58:25that we

00:58:26were trying

00:58:26to poison

00:58:26her.

00:58:27The threat

00:58:27that she

00:58:27would starve

00:58:28herself.

00:58:29Yes.

00:58:29You say

00:58:30she accused

00:58:30you of

00:58:30not having

00:58:31been up

00:58:31to see

00:58:31her when

00:58:31in fact

00:58:31you had

00:58:32been up.

00:58:32You say

00:58:32she'd

00:58:33forget

00:58:33where

00:58:33she

00:58:33was

00:58:34what

00:58:34time

00:58:34of

00:58:34day

00:58:34it

00:58:35was.

00:58:35Am I correct?

00:58:35Yes.

00:58:36Did she have

00:58:36a clock or a watch

00:58:37in her room?

00:58:38No.

00:58:38She had no television

00:58:39or radio is that

00:58:40right?

00:58:40No we offered her

00:58:41a radio but she

00:58:42didn't want it.

00:58:42And she did not

00:58:43read?

00:58:44No she wanted

00:58:44to read her.

00:58:45Not even

00:58:45newspapers or

00:58:46magazines?

00:58:46No I think

00:58:47it was her eyes.

00:58:48Did it surprise

00:58:49you that she

00:58:49became confused?

00:58:51No she was

00:58:51old.

00:58:52She was old

00:58:52and that was

00:58:53the reason

00:58:53for her getting

00:58:53confused.

00:58:55Well old people

00:58:55do get confused

00:58:56don't they?

00:58:57You told us

00:58:58that your own

00:58:58mother went

00:58:59into a hospital

00:58:59psychogeriatric ward

00:59:01or she attended

00:59:01to by a doctor

00:59:02while in your

00:59:03care?

00:59:03Yes.

00:59:04Did you send

00:59:04for the doctor?

00:59:05Yes.

00:59:06What were your

00:59:06reasons?

00:59:07My lord is

00:59:08this evidence

00:59:08necessary?

00:59:10Mr Saunders.

00:59:12My lord my

00:59:13learned friend

00:59:13used the evidence

00:59:14of the defendant's

00:59:15own mother

00:59:15no doubt as an

00:59:16indicator of good

00:59:17character.

00:59:18I simply seek

00:59:18to use the same

00:59:19evidence to

00:59:20establish the

00:59:20defendant's

00:59:21previous experience

00:59:22in caring for

00:59:22an elderly person.

00:59:24Does that

00:59:24answer your

00:59:25question Miss

00:59:26Miles?

00:59:27Yes thank

00:59:27you my lord.

00:59:29What were the

00:59:29reasons?

00:59:30My mother behaved

00:59:31strangely.

00:59:32In what ways?

00:59:33She'd get up and

00:59:34go out in the

00:59:34middle of the

00:59:35night.

00:59:35She brought a

00:59:36tramp home once

00:59:36to the house.

00:59:38She'd talk about

00:59:39people in the

00:59:39house people who

00:59:40weren't there.

00:59:40I can stop you

00:59:41there let me ask

00:59:41you this did not

00:59:42Mrs Ather's behavior

00:59:43alarm you in the

00:59:43same way?

00:59:44No it wasn't so

00:59:45extreme.

00:59:46She threw her

00:59:46food on the

00:59:47floor accused you

00:59:47of trying to

00:59:48poison her threatened

00:59:48to starve herself

00:59:49that it was not

00:59:49extreme.

00:59:50Not as extreme.

00:59:51That or the

00:59:51fact she was

00:59:52becoming weaker

00:59:53and having more

00:59:53difficulty in

00:59:53walking.

00:59:54No no.

00:59:55You weren't

00:59:55alarmed in the

00:59:56slightest.

00:59:57Well it's obvious

00:59:57I wasn't otherwise

00:59:58I'd have told

00:59:58somebody.

00:59:59You truly believe

01:00:00that Mrs Ather

01:00:01upstairs in that

01:00:02room arthritic

01:00:03weakening

01:00:04frequently without

01:00:05appetite without

01:00:06medical attention

01:00:07was receiving a

01:00:08proper supply of

01:00:09the necessaries of

01:00:10life?

01:00:11We did give her

01:00:12enough to eat.

01:00:13But did you

01:00:13give enough care

01:00:14as to how much

01:00:15she ate?

01:00:16I've already

01:00:18said she was

01:00:19an adult

01:00:20capable of

01:00:21feeding herself.

01:00:22She knew how

01:00:23much she wanted.

01:00:24I suggest to

01:00:24you that supplying

01:00:25the food was

01:00:26half the duty.

01:00:27The other half

01:00:27was making sure

01:00:28she ate properly

01:00:28and if she did

01:00:29not getting

01:00:29medical attention

01:00:30for her.

01:00:31It all depends

01:00:32on your definition

01:00:32of properly

01:00:33doesn't it?

01:00:34Were you aware

01:00:34of the large

01:00:35sum of money

01:00:35or some exceeding

01:00:36£50,000

01:00:37which Mrs Ather

01:00:38possessed in

01:00:38her bank?

01:00:39Of course I was.

01:00:40Was that not a

01:00:40factor contributing

01:00:41to your indifference

01:00:42as to whether she

01:00:43lived or not?

01:00:44We'd have to be

01:00:45monsters to do

01:00:45something like that

01:00:46and you've no

01:00:46right to suggest it.

01:00:49She hadn't even

01:00:49made a will.

01:00:50We never even

01:00:51thought of her

01:00:51making one.

01:00:52In which case

01:00:52the money would

01:00:53have been divided

01:00:53equally between

01:00:54your wife and

01:00:55your sister-in-law

01:00:55a still considerable

01:00:56amount.

01:00:56So what?

01:00:57We never even

01:00:57thought about it.

01:00:59When Mrs Shepard,

01:00:59your sister-in-law,

01:01:01arrived and asked

01:01:01to see her mother

01:01:02you refused.

01:01:02Is that right?

01:01:03That's right.

01:01:04Didn't you consider

01:01:05that Mrs Shepard

01:01:05had a perfect right

01:01:06to see her mother?

01:01:07After the way

01:01:08she treated her?

01:01:08Please just

01:01:09answer the question.

01:01:10No, I didn't

01:01:10think she had any.

01:01:11What was your

01:01:12reason for refusing

01:01:13Mrs Shepard permission?

01:01:14Her mother

01:01:14didn't want to see her.

01:01:15Didn't you go upstairs

01:01:16at the time and ask her?

01:01:17No.

01:01:17And how did you know?

01:01:19Because she'd said

01:01:20so before.

01:01:21She never wanted

01:01:21to see Rebecca again.

01:01:22But wasn't she

01:01:23often in a confused state?

01:01:24How do you know

01:01:25Mrs Ather meant

01:01:25what she said?

01:01:26Well, from the way

01:01:26she said it.

01:01:28Am I right in saying

01:01:29that had Mrs Shepard

01:01:30been allowed to go upstairs

01:01:31and see her mother,

01:01:32she would have been

01:01:33the only other person

01:01:33to see her alive

01:01:34during her stay

01:01:35at the new inn?

01:01:36Yes.

01:01:37I put this to you

01:01:38that you did not want

01:01:39Mrs Shepard to go upstairs.

01:01:41Because you did not

01:01:42want her to see

01:01:42her mother's state.

01:01:44I deny that strongly.

01:01:45She was depressed,

01:01:46you say.

01:01:47Didn't you feel

01:01:47she might benefit

01:01:48from a visit

01:01:48from her other daughter?

01:01:49No, I thought

01:01:50it might upset her.

01:01:51You consider yourself

01:01:52the better judge?

01:01:52In that instance, yes.

01:01:55During the last week

01:01:56of Mrs Ather's life,

01:01:56your wife was in hospital

01:01:58leaving you in sole charge.

01:01:59Yes.

01:02:00Have you heard

01:02:00the medical evidence

01:02:01that by that time

01:02:03Mrs Ather was already

01:02:04in a starved state

01:02:05and suffering

01:02:06from a disease,

01:02:07tuberculous meningitis,

01:02:08the symptoms of which

01:02:09are headaches,

01:02:10drowsiness, confusion,

01:02:11irritability,

01:02:12leading to loss

01:02:12of muscle control,

01:02:13paralysis and coma.

01:02:15Yes, I've listened to it.

01:02:16Did you tell us

01:02:16you did not notice

01:02:17Mrs Ather was ill?

01:02:18I didn't think

01:02:19she was ill enough

01:02:19to send for a doctor.

01:02:20Ill enough?

01:02:21Are you saying

01:02:21you noticed she was ill?

01:02:23Look, my wife

01:02:24was in hospital,

01:02:25I was running the pub

01:02:26on my own...

01:02:26Are you saying

01:02:27you noticed she was ill?

01:02:28She was very weak.

01:02:31Headaches.

01:02:32So weak, in fact,

01:02:32you had to help her

01:02:33to the toilet?

01:02:33Yes.

01:02:34Yet you believed her

01:02:35strong enough

01:02:35to feed herself?

01:02:36Yes.

01:02:38When you took up

01:02:39her food during

01:02:39that final week,

01:02:40where did you put it?

01:02:41Well, she always had it

01:02:42on a tray on her bed.

01:02:43You say that when you went up

01:02:44it looked as though

01:02:45she'd eaten some of it

01:02:47though never a great deal?

01:02:48Yes.

01:02:49What exactly do you mean by that?

01:02:50Well, she'd stir the food

01:02:51up with a fork.

01:02:52It was very difficult

01:02:52to tell just how much

01:02:53had been eaten.

01:02:54Stir it up with a fork?

01:02:55Can you be more precise?

01:02:56Yes, though she'd been

01:02:56picking it over.

01:02:58But surely you could tell

01:02:58how much had been eaten?

01:03:00Well, it looked as though

01:03:00some had been eaten.

01:03:01I suggest none had been eaten,

01:03:03look, I couldn't tell.

01:03:04You could not recognize

01:03:05a starving woman?

01:03:07A woman who was starving

01:03:08because she'd ceased to eat?

01:03:10No, I didn't realize that.

01:03:12When you went to visit

01:03:13your wife in hospital,

01:03:14who looked after Mrs. Affer?

01:03:17No one.

01:03:18She was all alone?

01:03:20Well, it was only

01:03:20for a couple of hours

01:03:21at a time.

01:03:22Why did you not tell

01:03:23someone she was there?

01:03:24Why did you not ask

01:03:25someone to look in on her?

01:03:27There was no one

01:03:27I could tell.

01:03:28We hadn't been in the village

01:03:29long, we didn't know

01:03:30many people.

01:03:31You run a pub

01:03:32and you do not know

01:03:32many people.

01:03:33Not to ask him

01:03:34something like that.

01:03:35Like what?

01:03:36Looking on an old woman.

01:03:38Did you wash Mrs. Affer

01:03:39during that final week?

01:03:42No, I didn't.

01:03:44When you looked in on her

01:03:45and observed

01:03:46that she was asleep

01:03:48after a day

01:03:49in which she ate

01:03:50nothing at all,

01:03:51did it not occur

01:03:52to you to go right up

01:03:53to her and check

01:03:53that she was all right?

01:03:54No, because I thought

01:03:55she was asleep

01:03:56and I didn't want

01:03:57to wake her up.

01:03:58How had she been

01:03:59that day?

01:04:00Very drowsy.

01:04:01She was a day away

01:04:02from death, Mr. Barber.

01:04:03Look, if I'd have

01:04:04noticed something

01:04:05I would have called

01:04:05a doctor.

01:04:06I suggest you had

01:04:07left it too late.

01:04:09I suggest you were

01:04:10too frightened

01:04:10to send for the doctor.

01:04:15Members of the jury,

01:04:17who was responsible

01:04:19for the condition

01:04:20of this old lady

01:04:20when she died?

01:04:22Do not lose sight

01:04:23of the fact

01:04:23that for three months

01:04:24she lay virtually alone

01:04:26in an upstairs bedroom

01:04:27of the inn

01:04:27without any visitors,

01:04:30without any attendance

01:04:31of a doctor,

01:04:33only the regular attendance

01:04:35of the two people

01:04:36who were responsible

01:04:38for her care

01:04:38and well-being.

01:04:40Yet she died

01:04:41weighing only

01:04:41five stone eight pounds

01:04:43with very little fat

01:04:44on her body

01:04:44and in a starved

01:04:46and emaciated state.

01:04:49Does the fact

01:04:50that they never bothered

01:04:50to send for a doctor

01:04:51not suggest to you

01:04:53the most negligent

01:04:54of attitudes

01:04:55does the fact

01:04:57that no one else

01:04:58ever saw Mrs. Atta,

01:04:59that Mrs. Sheppard

01:05:00even was turned away,

01:05:02not suggest to you

01:05:03that they could see

01:05:04the terrible condition

01:05:06she was in?

01:05:07For nearly 20 years

01:05:08we have heard

01:05:09this old lady

01:05:11nursed her husband

01:05:12at the hands

01:05:14of her daughter

01:05:14and son-in-law.

01:05:17Did she not deserve better?

01:05:20Members of the jury,

01:05:22we have been led

01:05:23to believe

01:05:23that because Mrs. Atta

01:05:25was in a starved state

01:05:27she developed

01:05:28tuberculous meningitis,

01:05:30the disease

01:05:30which killed her.

01:05:32However,

01:05:33Professor Mason

01:05:33has been prepared

01:05:34to admit

01:05:35that all of that starvation

01:05:36could have been

01:05:37attributable to the disease

01:05:39and that a mere

01:05:40deficiency in diet

01:05:41could have caused

01:05:42that tuberculosis

01:05:43to reappear

01:05:44sometime before

01:05:46the disease

01:05:47spread to the meninges.

01:05:49now I suggest

01:05:52to you

01:05:52the possibility

01:05:53that that disease

01:05:55did reappear

01:05:56long before

01:05:58Mrs. Atta

01:05:58ever went to live

01:06:00with the barbers

01:06:00and this presents us

01:06:03with a very different picture

01:06:04because we can no longer

01:06:05be certain

01:06:06that any neglect

01:06:08by the barbers

01:06:09led to Mrs. Atta

01:06:10developing the disease

01:06:12which killed her.

01:06:13Will you members

01:06:16of the jury

01:06:17consider this tragic case

01:06:19not only with

01:06:20the utmost compassion

01:06:21but also with a regard

01:06:24to the very strong

01:06:25and nagging possibility

01:06:27that there may have been

01:06:29in truth

01:06:30no crime committed?

01:06:35Members of the jury

01:06:37every person

01:06:40who takes charge

01:06:42of another person

01:06:43to provide

01:06:44the necessaries

01:06:45of life

01:06:46for that other person

01:06:48is criminally

01:06:49responsible

01:06:51if

01:06:52by reason of neglect

01:06:54death

01:06:56ensues

01:06:57to the person

01:06:58so neglected

01:06:59if the neglect

01:07:02of duty

01:07:03is such as

01:07:05to amount

01:07:05to a reckless disregard

01:07:08then the person

01:07:10responsible

01:07:11can be convicted

01:07:13of manslaughter

01:07:15now what

01:07:18if the necessaries

01:07:20of life

01:07:21were provided

01:07:23and Mrs. Atta

01:07:24neglected herself

01:07:26if medical advice

01:07:30was not sought

01:07:31and you thought

01:07:32that that was

01:07:34a gross neglect

01:07:35of duty

01:07:36then again

01:07:38it would be open

01:07:40to you

01:07:40to convicted

01:07:41of manslaughter

01:07:42you must ask

01:07:44yourself

01:07:45how apparent

01:07:47the self-neglect

01:07:49was

01:07:49there is

01:07:51no evidence

01:07:52that she did

01:07:53not eat

01:07:54during that

01:07:55three months

01:07:57though

01:07:59it is clear

01:08:00that she ate poorly

01:08:01you must

01:08:03decide

01:08:05if

01:08:06there is a

01:08:07foundation

01:08:07for the very

01:08:08real possibility

01:08:10that she

01:08:11disposed

01:08:12of food

01:08:13when she said

01:08:15that she had

01:08:16eaten it

01:08:17if you conclude

01:08:20that

01:08:21all

01:08:22the starvation

01:08:24took place

01:08:25during the disease

01:08:26then you may

01:08:28attach

01:08:29less guilt

01:08:30to

01:08:30Mrs. Barber

01:08:31who wasn't

01:08:33present

01:08:34during that

01:08:35final week

01:08:36how you

01:08:38apportioned guilt

01:08:39will depend

01:08:41on how

01:08:42extensive

01:08:42you think

01:08:44the period

01:08:45of neglect

01:08:46was

01:08:46finally

01:08:49I must

01:08:51remind you

01:08:52that the

01:08:53burden

01:08:54of proof

01:08:54rests upon

01:08:55the prosecution

01:08:56before

01:08:58you can

01:09:00convict

01:09:00either of

01:09:01them

01:09:02you must

01:09:03be satisfied

01:09:04in either

01:09:06case

01:09:07beyond

01:09:07reasonable

01:09:09doubt

01:09:09that

01:09:11her death

01:09:12was brought

01:09:13about

01:09:13by the

01:09:14gross

01:09:15neglect

01:09:15of one

01:09:16or both

01:09:18the defendants

01:09:19in looking

01:09:20after her

01:09:21amounting

01:09:22to a

01:09:23reckless

01:09:24disregard

01:09:25whether

01:09:27she died

01:09:27or not

01:09:28I must

01:09:32now ask

01:09:32you to

01:09:33retire

01:09:33elect

01:09:35a foreman

01:09:36to speak

01:09:37for you

01:09:38and

01:09:40consider

01:09:40your

01:09:40verdicts

01:09:42members

01:09:45of the jury

01:09:45will your foreman

01:09:46please stand

01:09:47please answer

01:09:48my next

01:09:49question

01:09:49yes or

01:09:50no

01:09:50have you

01:09:51reached a

01:09:51verdict on

01:09:51which you

01:09:52are all

01:09:52agreed

01:09:52yes

01:09:53do you

01:09:54find

01:09:54Harold

01:09:54Barber

01:09:55guilty

01:09:55or not

01:09:56guilty

01:09:56of

01:09:56manslaughter

01:09:57guilty

01:09:57and that

01:09:58is the

01:09:59verdict

01:09:59of you

01:09:59all

01:10:00yes

01:10:00do you

01:10:01find

01:10:01Grace

01:10:02Barber

01:10:02guilty

01:10:03or not

01:10:03guilty

01:10:03of

01:10:04manslaughter

01:10:04guilty

01:10:05and that

01:10:05is the

01:10:06verdict

01:10:06of you

01:10:06all

01:10:06yes

01:10:07Harold

01:10:13and

01:10:13Grace

01:10:13Barber

01:10:14being

01:10:14found

01:10:15guilty

01:10:15of

01:10:15manslaughter

01:10:16were sentenced

01:10:16to two years

01:10:17imprisonment

01:10:17suspended

01:10:18as to half

01:10:19they can be

01:10:19released

01:10:20after one

01:10:20year

01:10:20and only

01:10:21serve the

01:10:21remainder

01:10:22of their

01:10:22sentence

01:10:22if they

01:10:23re-offended

01:10:23you can

01:10:25join another

01:10:25jury

01:10:25when our

01:10:26cameras return

01:10:26to bring you

01:10:27a further

01:10:27case

01:10:28in the

01:10:28Crown Court

01:10:29to be

01:10:40to be

01:10:41a further

01:10:42time

01:10:42to be

01:10:43a further

01:10:44time

01:10:44to be

01:10:44a further

01:10:45time

01:10:45to be

Crown Court - There Was An Old Woman (1984) HD - Michael Jayston, Gwen Watford, David Daker

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