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Stefan Molyneux
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Stefan Molyneux interviewed by Dr. Bob Murphy!

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Transcript
00:00:00The Bob Murphy Show, episode 424.
00:00:17There's a tidal wave coming.
00:00:20What you gonna do?
00:00:22Get ready for another episode of The Bob Murphy Show.
00:00:25The podcast promoting free markets, free minds, and grateful souls.
00:00:31It's your source for commentary and interviews, conducted by a Christian and economist.
00:00:37Now here's your host, Bob Murphy.
00:00:44Hey everybody, welcome back to The Bob Murphy Show.
00:00:47Today I am speaking with Stefan Molyneux, who I'm sure many of you have known about for a long time.
00:00:52He was an icon in the liberty movement back in the day.
00:00:58One of the OGs, as we say.
00:01:00Let me read a little bit from his official bio on his website.
00:01:04Stefan Molyneux is the founder and host of Free Domain, the largest and most popular philosophy show in the world.
00:01:10With more than 4,500 podcasts, 10 books, and 600 million downloads, Stefan has spread the cause of liberty and philosophy to millions of listeners around the world.
00:01:19Mr. Molyneux holds a master's degree in history from the University of Toronto.
00:01:23His graduate thesis focused on the history of philosophy, detailing the relationship between the metaphysical arguments and the political ethics of major Western philosophers such as Plato, Kant, Locke, and Hegel.
00:01:34So, what we're talking about here is a few things.
00:01:40Let me just give you a teaser.
00:01:41He had been infamously kicked off of major social media platforms.
00:01:48And then once Elon bought Twitter, restored Stefan's account, and he didn't want to come back.
00:01:57And so I asked him about that, and then eventually he did come back.
00:02:00And so that's how he was back in my consciousness because I follow him on Twitter.
00:02:06And some of the things he was saying surprised me.
00:02:09So his views have definitely evolved since the last I was regularly hearing his opinions on things.
00:02:16And so I asked him about a few of those.
00:02:17In particular, we'll sort of tease it.
00:02:20It's at the end, we talk about his stance towards Christianity, which is far different now than it was the last I had interacted with him about it.
00:02:30Well, I think that's enough teaser.
00:02:34Let's get right into the conversation.
00:02:36Stefan, welcome to the Bob Murphy Show.
00:02:38Great to be here, Bob.
00:02:39It's been a long time.
00:02:40How are you?
00:02:41I'm doing well.
00:02:42And how are you doing?
00:02:44I'm great.
00:02:45I'm great.
00:02:46I suppose I've been jet-packed in or cannon back from the wilderness.
00:02:49And I am fighting the brain orcs on Twitter and enlightening the masses as best I can.
00:02:55So it's quite a lot of fun.
00:02:56Well, let's unpack even right there.
00:03:00So, yeah, why don't we start with that?
00:03:03Yeah, I mean, what happened?
00:03:06Was it a few years ago that you just got booted from various social media platforms and then you just went private, as it were?
00:03:13Yeah.
00:03:13Can you just tell us a little bit about that story?
00:03:15And then now the thing, your triumphal return, it wasn't exactly the palms were being laid down, but, you know, somewhat like that.
00:03:22Coming back to Twitter slash X?
00:03:24Yeah.
00:03:25So it was the summer of 2020 when I assumed that there were a huge amount of sort of worm-tongue-like backdoor machinations to get me off social media for, I assume, reasons of politics for, you know, I was opposing all the George Floyd riots and so on.
00:03:42And I guess they wanted their summer of love, so they had to step over my face in order to get their burning neighborhood.
00:03:50So I got kicked off just about everything in a really short span of time.
00:03:54And so, yeah, I mean, I went from playing stadiums to jazz clubs, which has its own charms and was quite enjoyable as well.
00:04:01I turned, of course, to writing books.
00:04:03I narrated some of my old novels, which I've always wanted to do.
00:04:06So it had its pluses for sure.
00:04:09I suppose a tiny bit surprising that, like, 95% of my audience found typing in a new website to be beyond their mortal span of activity, because I actually registered one website over, because I'm literally – people are like, hey, man, where were you?
00:04:25You were so hard to find.
00:04:26I'm like, it's really not that hard.
00:04:29I'm not a mole.
00:04:31I'm not a ghost.
00:04:33Just one website over.
00:04:34But – and that actually gave me a certain amount of liberty, because, you know, if you have some reasonable ability to affect people's minds for the better, and then if you go one website over and they're like, nah, it's too far, man.
00:04:46It's – come on, man.
00:04:47I'm only mortal.
00:04:48I mean, I'm going to get carpal tunnel syndrome from typing in other websites.
00:04:52So it actually liberates you from a certain level of responsibility, which I suppose I'd hung on to pretty heavily for quite a long time.
00:04:59Well, I wonder if it's, like, both Stephen King and J.K. Rowling, when they got to be humongous, started writing novels with pseudonyms because they wanted to see, like, do people actually like my stories anymore or is it just because I'm so big?
00:05:14I don't know if it was something like that, perhaps.
00:05:16So, okay, so that's what happened.
00:05:19Let me just push that a little bit, because, yeah, it was with you, and there were a few others for – I don't want to say names and be wrong.
00:05:26I think Alex Jones is probably one – where it was – it definitely looked coordinated.
00:05:30It was not just that the people who run YouTube independently came to a decision, and then on a completely different track, the people who run Facebook, you know what I mean?
00:05:37Like, it was just – it certainly seemed like there were those coordinated behind-the-scenes efforts.
00:05:42So do you – I mean, was it the COVID stuff?
00:05:46I mean, you were saying there the George Floyd riots.
00:05:48But anyway, what – because this was all happening, you know, right when society was being transformed around the world.
00:05:54Yeah, I mean, I'll obviously never know, because I never got any indications as to what it specifically was.
00:06:03I am such a urinator on third rails, I suppose, that it could have been any one of a half dozen to a dozen topics that wiser men than me choose to eschew, which I foolishly ran in.
00:06:15Whatever it is.
00:06:16I mean, I feel it was necessary.
00:06:17I feel it was important.
00:06:18And, of course, you know, philosophers, particularly moral philosophers, you have to have at least a couple of centuries in your business plan, because you're generally reviled in the here and now, but you are recognized as being right down the road.
00:06:31That's sort of the goal, right?
00:06:32So you just have to be willing to have, you know, that sort of CCP half-a-millennial business plan to make it.
00:06:38But, yeah, it could have been the George Floyd stuff.
00:06:41It could have been group differences in IQ.
00:06:42It could have been stuff I was doing between males and females.
00:06:45It could have been the stuff I was doing about China being the source of the virus.
00:06:51It could have been any number of things that would have been a hot topic.
00:06:56But I think it probably had something to do with the 2016.
00:07:01So 2016, as you know, the election of Trump was a seismic shock to the ruling classes, because they'd never had to deal with anything like that before.
00:07:10In the glorious days of internet freedom, the decade of 06 to 2016 was unprecedented.
00:07:16You know, it's fine to let the masses have free speech as long as you're the gatekeeper and it doesn't really achieve anything.
00:07:21And the best you can do is sort of photocopy something and stuff it in people's mailboxes.
00:07:24But when you have people out there who are actively pushing against mainstream narratives and gaining significant traction, like my untruths about Donald Trump got millions and millions of views, you know, and the perception is, I suppose, that that may have had a tiny effect on the election.
00:07:40Who knows, right?
00:07:41But I think it was like, oh, this guy's free speech might actually be changing things.
00:07:46Well, we really can't have that.
00:07:47We just need to give people the illusion of free speech rather than free speech that actually might change something.
00:07:52So I assume it had something to do with that.
00:07:55Oh, yeah.
00:07:56So just to be clear, in terms of my earlier remarks, when I was saying, like, what was it?
00:08:00And then you were listing.
00:08:01Yeah, I think it was, as you say, the ruling class, for lack of a better term, realized that, oh, this internet thing is really picking up steam.
00:08:11And now lots of people are turning to it to get news and just to figure out what the heck is going on with the world.
00:08:17And they realize for our agenda to continue to being fulfilled, we have to nip this in the bud.
00:08:24So, of course, at the beginning, at the outset, they're not just going to start kicking off people and saying, oh, it's because we disagree with them politically.
00:08:31Like, that's not going to work.
00:08:32So instead, they go for, quote, the low-hanging fruit, the people who have said shocking things, because then, you know, a lot of people aren't going to go to the barricades over.
00:08:41It's like, oh, yeah, well, that guy, yeah, he's got a bad reputation.
00:08:44I'm not going to defend him.
00:08:45And I think also, I mean, as an economist, I'm sure you're aware of this, whether you agree or not, of course.
00:08:50But I remember when my daughter was little, showing her my tweets, say, versus mainstream media tweets.
00:09:00And, boy, there's just no comparison, right?
00:09:03I mean, if you have a knack for this kind of stuff and you have interesting things to say, I was getting hundreds of times more views, likes, and retweets than, like, huge mainstream media platforms.
00:09:16Now, of course, they have other ways of getting their information out, but there is just a certain amount of, this guy's taking our eyeballs, this guy's taking our readers, this guy's disrupting our narrative.
00:09:26So if we just write negative articles about the guy and paint him as, like, the worst guy in the universe, then this can be used as evidence to get him de-platformed, and then hopefully some of those eyeballs will come back to us.
00:09:38It's, you know, standard, say that the competing restaurant has rat feces in the soup kind of economic sabotage, I think.
00:09:46And also a chilling effect on everybody else to know, like, oh, so when they're trying to figure out what line is there so that I can still stay on the platform, and then they can say, well, whatever the line is, Stefan obviously must have been over it, and so therefore let me, you know, dial down.
00:10:01Okay, so that's what happened in the past, and then, you know, people who knew you and stuff were like, okay, well, yep, Stefan went into his own thing, and he's got his hardcore fans that are, you know, with him.
00:10:11And okay, and I'm going to go throw down, because I'm still on Twitter, and then you came back recently.
00:10:16So can you just explain, and I know people had asked you when you had principled reasons for why you weren't going to come back, even after Elon bought it.
00:10:25So can you just explain what your old thinking was, and then what made you change your mind?
00:10:28Well, of course, Bob, it just turned out that those principles were quite inconvenient.
00:10:31So naturally, I just had to jettison them.
00:10:33You know, like when you're on a ship, and it's like really low in the water, you just jettison any excess baggage, people, old ladies.
00:10:40So no, I mean, my basic argument, which was overthrown by a surprising person, my basic argument was, you know, they did me dirty, they did me wrong.
00:10:50And in my view, they were not upfront and honest about the reasons that they gave for my de-platforming, at least from Twitter.
00:10:59So when you, I bought and sold corporations, well, sold, I mean, I co-founded a software company, grew it, and actually ended up selling it twice.
00:11:08And so I know that when you buy a corporation, you inherit the liabilities and the assets, right?
00:11:14You don't just get to reboot it and erase all the debt.
00:11:17So I felt that, as Elon Musk said, he didn't buy a company, he bought a crime scene.
00:11:22So my feeling was, okay, so if somebody wrongs me, or if I wrong someone, what do I owe them?
00:11:27I mean, I was raised a Christian, so I owe them apologies, I owe them restitution, and some reasonable certainty that it's not going to happen again, right?
00:11:36So if I'm really angry and I scream and throw things, you know, I'll apologize, I will, you know, fix whatever I broke, and then I'll enter into anger management classes so that it, there's some decent chance it's not going to happen again.
00:11:49And that's sort of the bare minimum for me of apologies and restitution.
00:11:54So that was sort of my standard with Twitter.
00:11:57And, of course, I wasn't getting that, so I held off.
00:12:00But then, kids, man, so my daughter then made a very compelling case, which was, she said, can Elon Musk or can Twitter apologize without incurring legal liability, right?
00:12:18Because, you know, in America in particular, right, you can't apologize for anything because, you know, people are, oh, okay, then he's admitting fault.
00:12:25And so she said, well, wouldn't he just have to run it past legal, and wouldn't legal get to say whether he got to, because it wouldn't just be me, right?
00:12:32There were lots of people who were, right?
00:12:34So would that have a negative effect on the value of the company if he apologized for stuff and then opened himself up to legal action or whatever it is, right?
00:12:43So is it possible, in a practical sense, for him to apologize?
00:12:49Again, you're a consultant in business, you know this probably better than I do, but fiduciary responsibility is kind of a big thing.
00:12:55For people on the board, especially the CEO, if you act in a way that harms the value of the company, you can yourself get sued, and it can be a big sort of ugly, drawn-out process.
00:13:04So she basically said, do you have a standard which cannot be achieved?
00:13:10Now, having a standard which can't be achieved, well, I'll apologize when you're nine feet tall.
00:13:15It's like, okay, so just say you're not going to accept an apology and don't have this obstacle course that no mortal being can surmount.
00:13:23And so I was like, oh, that's a, well, that's a good point.
00:13:27And then I sort of did some research, and, well, she's right.
00:13:31And so, you know, if you have a standard of apology that can't be reached.
00:13:35And she also said, look, the guy's been committed to free speech for a couple of years now.
00:13:40I think I got my account restored a couple of years ago.
00:13:42And she said, look, is it not apology enough that he has remained committed to free speech for a couple of years?
00:13:48In other words, if somebody, even if they don't apologize directly, which could be for legal reasons, if they've gone to anger management, if they haven't gotten angry in a couple of years, is there not an apology by implication based upon better and consistently better behavior?
00:14:01Again, that's a, that's a pretty good argument.
00:14:06So given that she made these arguments, I couldn't really push back against them.
00:14:11And I'd always, you know, you're a dad, you say to your kids, we live by reason and evidence.
00:14:16And if you make a good case, you know, then that's great.
00:14:19So she made a good case.
00:14:21And I had to, well, I didn't have to come back, but she made a case that I really couldn't resist.
00:14:27I couldn't overturn.
00:14:29And again, it's the empathy thing.
00:14:30If I was in Elon Musk's position, would I, would I kind of do the same thing?
00:14:34Well, yeah.
00:14:35Cause you know, when you're a CEO, you kind of got to do what legal tells you in those kinds of situations.
00:14:39So sorry for the long answer, but that's, that's, that's great.
00:14:42I had seen, you mentioned to people, you know, very briefly on Twitter slash, there was a period when I thought I will, I would sooner give up my left arm than call it X.
00:14:53But now I'm slowly moving towards there.
00:14:55Or the, yeah, I had seen you say to people, oh, my daughter convinced me, but I didn't know what the, but that, that's really interesting.
00:15:03So how are you allowed to tell us roughly how old she is just to us to appreciate her?
00:15:09Oh, sure.
00:15:09Yeah.
00:15:09She'll be 17 this year.
00:15:12She's 16 at the moment.
00:15:12Okay.
00:15:13Wow.
00:15:13Yeah.
00:15:13That's, that's really good.
00:15:14Yeah.
00:15:14I'm trying to think of, I suppose an analogy would be like when these world leaders and I want to actually, why don't we just jump right into it?
00:15:24I'm curious in your thoughts about Iran and Israel and all that, what's been going on over there.
00:15:28And one of the things that I think is intriguing about this is how, like, it's, you know, oh, well, we bombed them.
00:15:36They obviously have to send some missiles at our bases, but they warned us ahead of, you know what I mean?
00:15:40It's sort of like, you gotta, you know, they have people, they gotta placate over there.
00:15:44They got hardliners.
00:15:45They got to show their pop.
00:15:46You know what I mean?
00:15:47I always thought it was kind of interesting how it's some level.
00:15:50There is a sense of just, you know, getting in the other person's shoes and realizing, yeah, we got to give them a face saving thing.
00:15:56It's like you're saying with Elon that I know exactly what you mean.
00:15:58The various corporate let legal won't let you do anything.
00:16:01You know, I, when I was younger, I came up with what I thought was a great script to use the transformers characters and something.
00:16:08And I wrote to, I don't know if it's Hasbro or I forget who owns them and they just gave me a blank, you know, or not blank, a form letter response.
00:16:15No, absolutely not.
00:16:16And I just realized because they're legal team, like they just can't, you know what I mean?
00:16:19They get all kinds of requests and just, no, no, no, you can't do it.
00:16:22So anyway, I was mad at the time and the suits don't get it.
00:16:26My story would be awesome.
00:16:27But blocking my creativity.
00:16:29Right.
00:16:29I understand.
00:16:30It would cost them too much to have a whole teams devoted to like parsing all the fan mail.
00:16:34So anyway, I think it's the same thing.
00:16:36Sorry, didn't drop.
00:16:37But I think it's the same thing of the Simpsons writing team.
00:16:40They get scads and scads of mail of people saying, I wrote a Simpsons script.
00:16:44You should really use this.
00:16:45And they literally have to keep it sealed in a box to prove they never opened it because they just, it just happened to make the same joke or they have the same plot, you know, because it's a Sony set number of stories.
00:16:56Right.
00:16:57And so the guy's going to say, hey, man, I sent that into you.
00:16:59You stole it.
00:17:00And they're like, no, no, it's sealed.
00:17:01We never opened it.
00:17:02It's documented.
00:17:03Like this is the amount of defensiveness you have to do because of this crazy IP stuff.
00:17:07But which I'm not a fan of, of course, because I like classical music.
00:17:10And as you know, classical music arose the most in the places with the least IP.
00:17:13So, yeah, that's that the legal legal rules.
00:17:17That's that's what you got to march behind.
00:17:20OK, so since I opened up the can of worms, I'm curious, what do you have any thoughts on what's been going on the last two months with Iran and Israel?
00:17:28Yeah, I mean, it is.
00:17:30I'm not doing too much politics.
00:17:32I'm sort of skirting the general information.
00:17:35Of course, as you know, Iran is to some degree a result of intense American meddling and all the way back to the 1950s with the Shah and then, of course, Khomeini.
00:17:45So, you build the enemies and then you fight the enemies.
00:17:50And then because the enemies fight back, you then get to expand your power over the population as a whole.
00:17:55So it is a horrendous situation.
00:17:58Of course, foreign policy is almost universally corrupt beyond words.
00:18:03So I think it would be kind of nice if America, I don't know, was interested in its own borders rather than laying money all over the universe for everyone else to have borders and security.
00:18:14But that's not quite as profitable, I think, for the military industrial complex.
00:18:18And it doesn't give the politicians as much excuse to expand their powers.
00:18:21Well, I'm curious if you had any take, because I know, you know, like you say, when Trump first came on the scene politically, you know, you were people, you know, one of the first people to really get in, you know, in his head, as it were, and make analyses.
00:18:35Let me just throw this theory out.
00:18:36And again, if this is something that like it's not been something you've been paying too much attention to, you know, fair enough.
00:18:40But I have no dog in the fight.
00:18:42I didn't vote for him.
00:18:43Um, I, but looking at the various, you know, press conferences he was giving and especially, you know, him dropping the F bomb and stuff when he was getting on the plane, my take was that behind the scenes, he was, you know, he and his people were telling the Israelis, give us time for the negotiation.
00:19:00You know, we're making assurances to the Iranians that were, you know, were they adults at the table and they were working with them, blah, blah, blah.
00:19:08And then Israel's just doing the game theory and realizing, no, we can hit them.
00:19:12And then what's Trump going to throw us under the bus and take their side over?
00:19:15No, he can't.
00:19:16And then we're going to say he was in on it.
00:19:17And what's he going to do?
00:19:18He's going to have to go along with that.
00:19:20And they just, and I think Trump was just outraged and shocked the first couple of times.
00:19:25I can't believe they just did that.
00:19:26And, and so I think he got, you know, you know, again, I'm not saying that to try to make excuses for him or whatever, but that was my read in terms of his body language and stuff.
00:19:34The few occasions where they asked him, you know, did you tell Netanyahu to hold off?
00:19:38And he said, yes, I did.
00:19:39Yes, I did.
00:19:40And then when he was saying, you know, they both don't know what the F they're doing or something that to me, that looked like, I don't think that was acting.
00:19:47I mean, that was like Al Pacino level acting.
00:19:48If he was acting there, I think he was pissed off.
00:19:51Well, politics is presenting moral platitudes to the masses while pursuing cold Terminator style calculations behind the scenes.
00:20:00And so most of politics is pretend to be good and then act in at least what you perceive to be your own naked self-interest.
00:20:08And I think that's the best way to, so for me to sort of, I try not to lecture too much on, on certain foreign policy or politics, because as a moral philosopher, that really doesn't, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for me, at least, to lay a whole bunch of moral rules at the feet of people who as a whole are acting in only a moral pretense way and pursuing naked and fairly brutal stuff.
00:20:30It would be like a nutritionist talking about astronomy in some sort of passionate way.
00:20:36It's like, well, the stars don't eat anything, so your skills don't really apply.
00:20:39And that's how I sort of view this kind of stuff.
00:20:42And it's one of the reasons why the deep platforming was clear for me in that, of course, as a free speech absolutist, the goal is, of course, to have words, not swords, right?
00:20:52We want to keep that S out front to stop attaching itself to the beginning of words.
00:20:57And when speech is significantly suppressed, then it goes to real politic.
00:21:06It goes to group, brute power, goes to force, manipulation, lies, money printing, funding, debt, all of that sort of stuff.
00:21:12It goes to anything but the argument, the debate.
00:21:15And so, for me, at least, the Overton window, which I was working to push, you know, kind of slammed back and took half my nose off.
00:21:23And that means that people are choosing coercion or force or manipulation over reasoned and argumentative debate.
00:21:34And it's one of the things, you posted a picture of yourself on X when you were, I think, slightly younger.
00:21:40Did I have that?
00:21:42Just a smidge, a tad, a tad younger.
00:21:44Yes, it was from, yeah, I was 24.
00:21:46And you were saying, back when I was a young bern, back when I believed, hey, I'll just talk about the free market reason and evidence with people and we'll sort it all out.
00:21:55And, I mean, I think we all have that optimism and that's a good fuel.
00:21:58It has to be tempered by what's possible in the situation, of course, as you well know.
00:22:02Yeah, yeah.
00:22:04Why don't we just, I'm curious to get some more elaboration for you on that.
00:22:07So, for context, folks, what happened was I recently was interviewing Dave Howden of the Mises Institute.
00:22:13He's a research fellow with them.
00:22:16And he had, with Parabylon, he had co-edited a volume of essays in honor of Joe Salerno, who for a long period now has been kind of running the summer fellowship program.
00:22:27And then Dave kind of just, you know, as an aside, said, yeah, Bob, you were in that program, right?
00:22:32And I said, oh, yeah, yeah.
00:22:33And he said, and I don't know.
00:22:34And so then the guys, like, you know, the tech guys doing the podcast went and dug up a photo of me from the year 2000.
00:22:42I think it was, like, the second year I was a fellow there, and I looked much younger and probably a tad thinner as well.
00:22:49And so anyway, some people were getting a good chuckle out of that.
00:22:51And I tweeted that out and said something like, oh, this was a period in my life when I thought if I just write essays explaining how a free society will work, everyone will get on board.
00:22:59And so there is that, and, you know, I will confess stuff.
00:23:04I mean, this is embarrassing to say, but I don't know if you remember that there was this website, antistate.com, and I was, you know, a regular there.
00:23:12And we had this forum, and there were a bunch of anarcho-capitalists that kept joining.
00:23:17I feel like an idiot just even telling you this stuff, but this is what happened.
00:23:21Like, I would sit there and do the extrapolation and figure out at what date would 10% of humanity be anarcho-capitalist because I was just looking at the numbers.
00:23:28So that didn't happen.
00:23:32And the thing is, it's not that I was wrong with my views.
00:23:37It's just I can't believe talking to people how much they are, like, just they know what they want the answer to be, and they'll backfill and figure out a rationale to get there.
00:23:46And I just, I've been, I mean, I'm not surprised anymore about it because I've just seen it for 20 years now, but I do remember just being shocked at, but no, I just showed you logically that that's not.
00:23:57How can you, you know?
00:24:00Well, you know, that's a big enough topic that you can't possibly leave in 45 minutes.
00:24:04I'm going to have to, you know, do what Scott Adams fears the most, which is watching somebody in a show get tied to a chair because he says that happens in every movie and it's so predictable.
00:24:13So, yeah, that big question of why don't people listen to reason and evidence?
00:24:19And, you know, one of my big tweets when I got back was talking about, you know, like 30 to 50% of people don't have an inner dialogue, don't have an inner voice.
00:24:28And it's not specifically related to intelligence.
00:24:30I mean, you can have very smart people, engineers and so on.
00:24:33They think more in terms of images and relationships rather than actual language.
00:24:37But those of us who are sort of machine language hamsters, we sort of think in terms of those things.
00:24:42And then, of course, I just tweeted out last night about the sort of famous Milgram experiment that just about everyone will torture if told to and two thirds of people will kill you if they're told to.
00:24:52And so, and I remember when I first read about that, I was like, well, didn't this provoke a massive social panic?
00:24:59Didn't this like, oh, my gosh, something's entirely wrong with the way we raise children, with the way we educate people.
00:25:04Like the fact that you end up with this soulless, easily programmed murder husks instead of people, isn't that something we should really panic about?
00:25:11And people are like, no, it didn't really change much because I suppose, again, it's kind of convenient to have willing executioners for the powers that be.
00:25:18But yeah, why people don't listen to reason, I think individually they kind of want to, but we are social animals and we only survive with the approval of those around us.
00:25:27At least that's how we evolved.
00:25:29And I think it's not so much people's individual beliefs that resist reason.
00:25:36I think what people do is a calculation and say, okay, and if I believe this, if I believe this, and I tell people that I believe this, then what?
00:25:46And I think that aspect of things, people who just willfully defied the tribe or the group or the nation or the king in the past, well, they, let's just say those genes were not enormously positively selected for continuation.
00:26:01So I think this process of it, not is this true, but what will happen to me if I say, if I repeat this to people?
00:26:08And you could see this with the Trump phenomenon, like Trump went from like the most popular guy, never accused of racism or sexism or anything like that, to like, you know, orange Hitler reincarnated with a windstorm hairdo.
00:26:21And people didn't know why.
00:26:24It's just that if you said to people, I think that there's positive things about Trump, I think he really cares about America, I think he's outside the system, I think, you know, and the media certainly lied about him pathologically.
00:26:36So the question is, what do people think other people are going to think of them if they hold a particular position?
00:26:46I mean, I was obviously skeptical about the COVID vaccine for reasons we can go into if you're interested, but I mean, reasons to be skeptical, right?
00:26:54So, but then the anti-vaxxer and you want granny to die and, you know, you're just a bad person, you're crazy.
00:27:01And so then people are like, okay, well, if I show skepticism to the vaccine, how do people perceive me?
00:27:06And I think it's really the sort of social networks that prevent the transmission of sort of reason and evidence.
00:27:12Because, you know, if you talk to people individually, you know, like Saul Janison used to say about the Soviet Union,
00:27:17that you can only tell the truth with your wife under the covers at night when you're sure there's nobody listening.
00:27:23So individually, people are like, yeah, that kind of makes sense.
00:27:27But then they sort of pop out into their social circle and they don't want to be ostracized.
00:27:31As you know, like social ostracism stimulates the same parts of the human brain as physical torture.
00:27:38And that's for reasons of what we need people to guard us as we sleep.
00:27:40We can't hunt alone.
00:27:42We need to reproduce.
00:27:43So we need some approval from the females or their clan or whatever.
00:27:46So I think that this torture mechanism of rejection, which I actually think is very positive for anarchism,
00:27:53I think that social rejection, economic rejection is how we enforce social rules in the absence of a state.
00:27:59But it really is a double-edged sword because it really cuts through people's capacity to stand tall with reason in their social circles.
00:28:06Okay, yeah, a lot there.
00:28:09And definitely I have seen that, for example, even to go earlier, the 9-11 truth stuff.
00:28:18There was a period where even among pretty radical libertarian groups, you could tell that was just like, oh, we're not going to go there right now.
00:28:28Like it's enough that we're already opposing the U.S. government's retaliation and blah, blah, blah.
00:28:32And we're looking at blowback and things that we're just not going to go there that's going to give our enemies something on a silver.
00:28:37I mean, no one told me what the rationale was, but I just I for sure observed there was a period.
00:28:43And then it was just eventually like it became more and more acceptable to talk like that.
00:28:48But even there, like like Tucker Carlson recently had some guy on, I forget the guy's name, where they were tiptoeing up to it and like all this weird stuff about what the government knew and the cover ups.
00:28:58But you know what I mean?
00:28:59So that was just one example where it clearly people were thinking things themselves, but they were kind of like, well, what are we what's going to happen to my career?
00:29:07What you know what's going to happen if I cross that line on that element?
00:29:12And I suppose the moon landing is another one that I know there's some people that are really whereas like the flat earth stuff that's so out there that somebody could, you know, they wouldn't worry about their job being hurt.
00:29:24If they were tweeting out, you know, these flat earth people make some sense because it's like you would think they were kidding.
00:29:29Whereas if somebody said, no, I'm I really don't think that we went to the moon.
00:29:32Like, I think a lot of people would be afraid to say that because they would be concerned that their employer might say, what are you doing?
00:29:37Like, you know, HR would call you in or something.
00:29:39So anyway, I definitely have seen that element at play, you know, with with things that are relevant.
00:29:47Well, I mean, JFK, of course, the assassination.
00:29:50Yeah, that's another good one.
00:29:51Gulf of Tonkin.
00:29:52I mean, we could sort of go through the list whether the nukes were necessary to win World War Two.
00:29:57Like there's a whole bunch of stuff that formerly was I don't know, you know, this is an old trope that there was alphabet agencies that came up with the term conspiracy theory,
00:30:06which is a magic wand to just dismiss anybody whose arguments you don't particularly like.
00:30:11You know, I mean, I'm still quite shocked that the term McCarthyism is used to mean an irrational witch hunt.
00:30:16And of course, McCarthy was even more right than he knew.
00:30:18And this is known from the declassification of the Soviet papers after the Cold War.
00:30:23But it's funny to me.
00:30:25I mean, people say, oh, it's just a conspiracy theory.
00:30:27It's like, you know, conspiracy is an actual term in law, right?
00:30:30Like, you know, there is a conspiracy to commit murder.
00:30:33There's a conspiracy to defraud.
00:30:35So any group of criminals that acts together, this is a term in law.
00:30:39It's not made up by wacky people with tinfoil helmets.
00:30:42Like it's an actual term of law.
00:30:44And of course, you can see conspiracies playing out all the time.
00:30:48Again, the COVID messaging was so bang and on point that it was definitely coming from some sort of planned arena.
00:30:54And whether it was pre-planned or not is sort of another question.
00:30:56But coordinated attacks.
00:30:58I mean, these are all things that are going on behind the scenes.
00:31:01Of course, the real conspiracy theory, which didn't turn out to be true,
00:31:05was that Trump colluded with Russia to steal the 2016 election.
00:31:08And so apparently it's a bad conspiracy theory if it's information you don't like.
00:31:12But if it's a totally false conspiracy theory, you could just repeat that ad infinitum as if it's true.
00:31:16So it is one of these NPC words.
00:31:19I did a tweet asking for people for their favorite NPC phrases.
00:31:23And yeah, conspiracy theory.
00:31:24Dismissing something by calling it a conspiracy theory is, I mean, historically and legally illiterate.
00:31:29And it is just a way, it's a magic wand to make bad, scary facts go into the ether.
00:31:34Yeah, the way I try to use that approach is to say, like, how was Julius Caesar killed?
00:31:39And that's a conspiracy theory you just gave.
00:31:41And also, the official 9-11 report is a conspiracy theory.
00:31:45It says that there were 19 hijackers who conspired.
00:31:48I actually did a search there.
00:31:50I don't think it was in the report, but I did see some official narrative where it did say these guys conspired.
00:31:56So it didn't have the word conspiracy, but it did have the verb.
00:31:58And I thought, hey, look at this.
00:31:59It's openly, how can you be pointing to the official report?
00:32:02You believe in a conspiracy theory.
00:32:03Okay, so why don't we jump to one of the things you've been doing lately that's been causing me all sorts of amusement is poking the guys who are very much about, you can't date nowadays.
00:32:16So can you just give us a flavor of what that debate's been like recently?
00:32:22Sure.
00:32:22Not controversial, not upsetting people.
00:32:24You know, my usual gentle foot massage.
00:32:27Trying not to rock the boat.
00:32:28Yeah, my gentle foot massage of truth infusion through the souls.
00:32:32Well, I did start tweeting about this stuff as a whole because the women that I know who were younger, it's funny because there's this, here's a conspiracy theory.
00:32:44Nobody over 50 can know anybody under 50.
00:32:47So people are like, well, you're an out-of-touch boomer.
00:32:48It's like, maybe out-of-touch, not quite a boomer, but I do actually know some younger people.
00:32:54And, of course, I talk to people all the time.
00:32:56I've done thousands of these conversations over the last 20 years on my show, mostly people talking about sort of personal issues, dating issues, marriage issues, and so on.
00:33:02And I've talked to a lot of young men who are in their 20s and sometimes even into their 30s who've never really talked to a woman.
00:33:10And the reason why they haven't talked to a woman is that fork in the road.
00:33:14Like, you either talk to women or you don't talk to women, and it tends to harden.
00:33:17Like, if you get used to talking to women, you're comfortable with it.
00:33:20If you avoid talking to women, you tend to get more comfortable with that and get kind of settled.
00:33:24And then, of course, a lot of people come along and say, well, it's a wise decision.
00:33:28You don't talk to women because the family courts are terrible and you could get divorced and women are crazy and, like, all the ideological divide and so on.
00:33:34So, then you justify people's kind of bad decisions and it tends to seal them up in a social and, obviously, genetic dead end.
00:33:43So, you know, one of the great curses of studying a lot of history, as my graduate degree is in history, particularly the history of philosophy,
00:33:51but one of the curses of studying history and blessings is that people who claim to have it hard in the modern world are fighting from their mouth and talking out of their armpit.
00:34:02Like, it's absolutely crazed and ridiculous.
00:34:04I did a graduate degree course on the history of the Middle Ages and, whew, not a lot of fun to be alive back then.
00:34:14And people still reproduced, even though you had to kiss a woman who'd never brushed her teeth and who probably had bathed about a year ago,
00:34:21who had a smallpox ravaged face and tooth decay.
00:34:23And, you know, and still, you know, half the babies died in childbirth and you had almost no political freedom.
00:34:29You could be strung up and killed for taking one rabbit from the king's lands or the lord's land.
00:34:33So, that was a pretty, pretty rough time.
00:34:35But at least there weren't factories oppressing them.
00:34:37Right, right, right.
00:34:39So, history, and, of course, if you went back, people like the Roman Empire, yeah, but if you went back to the Roman Empire,
00:34:45odds are highly likely you'd just be a slave.
00:34:47You wouldn't be a senator, right?
00:34:48So, most people had no freedom, ancient Greece, same thing.
00:34:52So, when people say it's too scary, it's too negative, it's too difficult to date right now,
00:34:57you know, just, you know, old guy, trained in history, good perspective.
00:35:01It's like, yeah, but your ancestors, you know, human beings got down to 10,000 souls during the last ice age.
00:35:06Like, we were this close to, like, despawning.
00:35:09And, you know, people fought their way back and people have babies during war and plagues and famines
00:35:13and all other kinds of natural disasters.
00:35:15And it is possible.
00:35:19And, you know, people are propagandized.
00:35:20Women are propagandized.
00:35:21It's like, well, people and women have always been propagandized.
00:35:23I mean, but at least you have the internet now, so you have access to both better and worse information, right?
00:35:28That's the fork in the road of the internet.
00:35:29It's like, if you take the sunny side of the street, you get a beautiful tan.
00:35:33If you take the dark side of the street, your nets freeze off and your genetic line is dead.
00:35:38So, just reminding people about that is really important.
00:35:42So, then I did sort of an experiment, which I talked about last Friday.
00:35:45So, I did an experiment where I pushed pretty hard back against these things.
00:35:52And, basically, the young men, some of them, were, you know, ferocious and angry and, you
00:35:59know, hurling all kinds of insults.
00:36:01And, you know, I mean, insults work on the young.
00:36:03But, you know, I'm pushing 60.
00:36:05If you don't know who the hell you are and what you're about by the time you're pushing
00:36:0860, you've kind of missed the boat.
00:36:09So, they don't really have any effect.
00:36:11I just find it sort of interesting because they reveal more about the person who's insulting
00:36:15you than, you know, if somebody said, Steph, I hate your haircut, I'd be like, yeah, may
00:36:18not particularly apply to me.
00:36:21So, I sort of pushed back hard.
00:36:23Can I stop you real fast on that?
00:36:25You know, when I tweeted out that, the picture of me from the year 2000, there was, you know,
00:36:30I got like a thousand hearts on it.
00:36:31And most people were, you know, whatever, I thought it was great.
00:36:35And then a few people were like, wow, you were even bald back then.
00:36:39And it was just like, it dug, it hurt my feelings.
00:36:41It was like, what's the point of you saying that?
00:36:44It's just shocking to me.
00:36:45Like, why would you think that would be, you know, anyway, so go ahead.
00:36:48I have no idea why people think the bald thing means anything.
00:36:51I get to live an extra six months because I don't have to take care of my hair.
00:36:54Because, you know, people spend a lot of, you spend two months shaving and six months
00:36:57taking care of your hair.
00:36:58So, I guess you're fine.
00:36:59I'm beginning an extra year almost.
00:37:01So, yeah, I sort of did an experiment where I was pushing fairly hard.
00:37:06And then people were like, well, you don't have empathy for the young.
00:37:08You don't have empathy for me.
00:37:09You don't understand.
00:37:10You don't, right?
00:37:10And they were so angry.
00:37:11And it's like, but you're also not displaying any empathy for me.
00:37:14Because one of the things I talked about, and this all gone, went pretty viral.
00:37:18And I try not to be too aggressive.
00:37:21But every now and then, I think it's fine to show a bit of a sword play.
00:37:25And basically, it was like, somebody was like, oh, you had to suffer nothing.
00:37:30You've got three houses for 12 strawberries, and everything was great back when you were
00:37:34a kid.
00:37:35I'm like, well, we...
00:37:37And basically, I said, shut up.
00:37:38I grew up under the shadow of nuclear war and the destruction of all life on Earth.
00:37:42You faced some fat feminists, right?
00:37:44Now, that was fairly blunt.
00:37:45Of course, it's not entirely true.
00:37:46We certainly did grow up under the shadow of nuclear war.
00:37:49But they faced more than fat feminists.
00:37:51There was a bit of hyperbole.
00:37:52And, you know, this thermonuclear, people get really mad.
00:37:55And they just had no empathy for what I suffered as a young man through the propaganda that
00:37:59we faced.
00:38:01And it wasn't just, of course, war, the environmental stuff, peak oil.
00:38:04We were all going to starve to death by 1980.
00:38:05And the environment, the ozone layer, the acid rain, it was just constant, right?
00:38:10And you didn't have access to the internet to counter information that people have now.
00:38:14So, you really didn't, you couldn't really push back against the narrative much.
00:38:18So, it had a big effect.
00:38:19So, then I did a show on Friday basically saying, okay, so you want me to have empathy
00:38:24with you as a young man, but you don't have any empathy for me as a young man.
00:38:27And that's why you can't get laid.
00:38:29Because you just don't have any compassion.
00:38:31You don't have any empathy.
00:38:32You don't have any human sensitivity.
00:38:33And so, it was a really interesting experiment to see if I put myself forward about the vulnerabilities
00:38:38that I had as a young man.
00:38:40Would they say, yeah, that must have been tough?
00:38:42And then I'd be like, yeah, well, what you're going through is tough.
00:38:44But as I've always said, I treat people the best I can the first time I meet them.
00:38:48And after that, I treat them as they treat me.
00:38:50So, I showed compassion.
00:38:52The band of money got endless insults.
00:38:54Yeah, let the cannons fly.
00:38:55I mean, it's a principle of self-defense in verbal altercations.
00:38:59Well, the thing about some of the reactions to your tweets that I saw that was just amazing to me,
00:39:05that, you know, I wonder if some of these people are just trolling and they're just making a joke or something.
00:39:09But it was just for the listeners here, Stefan, it was stuff.
00:39:15They weren't merely saying, you know, all things considered, a young guy who wants to get married,
00:39:20I don't know if that's the right thing to do because of the divorce.
00:39:22They weren't just saying it.
00:39:23They were saying stuff like, Stefan was saying, well, why don't you go say hi to a woman that you see in the coffee shop?
00:39:29And they were sitting there trying to tell you why you would probably end up in jail that night if you did that,
00:39:33because she would accuse you of rape.
00:39:34And it was just like, what?
00:39:36And again, they're saying with a straight face and, you know, not all men, you know,
00:39:40I'm not saying every guy's doing that, obviously, in terms of,
00:39:44but there were a lot pushing back against you with the most ludicrous arguments I've ever seen.
00:39:49And it was like, this is not healthy.
00:39:52You know what I mean?
00:39:52Like, I get that, yeah, you know, I'm being cliched here, but the pendulum swung too far.
00:39:57Yeah, there was a period where no matter what show you watch, the male was always the buffoon.
00:40:02And the husband was through, through, through it.
00:40:03And the wife was the super, you know, and I get that.
00:40:06And that's why people are pushing back.
00:40:07And yet divorce court is very unfair to the men and blah, blah, blah.
00:40:11I totally get that.
00:40:11I even get the men going their own way and why that's a thing.
00:40:14And okay.
00:40:15But the people pushing back against you are coming up with the most ludicrous warnings about,
00:40:20no, you absolutely cannot even go say hi to a woman because somehow the law will be come down upon you if you do that.
00:40:28And it was just, what are you, dude?
00:40:30Right, right.
00:40:30And that is brutal.
00:40:33And I think that's being fed by people who are preying on and furthering people's insecurities and fears.
00:40:38And I think those people can look back and I just, I just want to give people a choice.
00:40:42If you don't get counter information, you functionally don't have a choice.
00:40:45Free will is about accessing counter information.
00:40:49So I just want to give people counter arguments.
00:40:50And look, again, I know you, you do fantastic consultations for business.
00:40:54So if someone said to you, oh, Dr. Murphy, I got this great business idea, but the business that I want to get involved in, the sector has a 50% failure rate.
00:41:08I can go bankrupt, lose my house, everything, right?
00:41:10Now, if you, as a consultant, were able to get that risk of bankruptcy down to 5% or below, boy, you would have earned your government cheese that day, right?
00:41:19I mean, that would be a fantastic, that's a tenfold reduction in risk.
00:41:24If you had some horrible disease that had a 50% mortality rate, and then some healer came along and said, I can get your mortality rate down to 5% or below, you'd be absolutely thrilled.
00:41:34You'd probably name your dog and firstborn after that person because they would have completely changed your life for the better.
00:41:40So when people are like, 50% divorce rate, 50% divorce rate, I mean, I've done this research years ago, and I laid out step by step, here's how you get your risk of divorce to 5% or lower, right?
00:41:50Find your compatible values, have the conversations ahead of time, choose someone who's got morals and integrity, have decent rules for conflict, no yelling, no name-calling, no, right?
00:41:59Just basic rules and standards of virtues and values and your divorce rate.
00:42:05And, you know, a woman who's either well-educated or well-read, you can be an autodidact that way as well, and your odds of divorce virtually vanish.
00:42:14Now, if these guys wanted to get married, but were too scared of the divorce rate, and I showed them, boy, here's a tenfold reduction in your risk of divorce, wouldn't they be incredible?
00:42:23Oh, my gosh, finally, I can go talk to girls, this is fantastic, blah, blah, blah.
00:42:27But no, it doesn't matter.
00:42:29They just ignore it and then continue to say, but you get jailed for saying hi to a woman at Starbucks.
00:42:34And it's like, but, you know, hopefully for some people, it sort of sinks into their head, they kind of figure this stuff out.
00:42:40And I think one of the things, sorry, long answer, last thing I want to mention, I think young men in particular, maybe young women, but I'm talking more to the young men, lost their ability to assess risk almost completely.
00:42:50I don't know if this is staying indoors.
00:42:52When I was a kid, we'd be just out all the time and, you know, climbing trees, building tree houses and forts, and, you know, you'd fall, you'd ride on your bike, no helmets, you'd fall, and you'd learn how to assess risk at a sort of physical level.
00:43:02And so people are talking about false accusations.
00:43:05It's like, okay, but you're many, many, many more times likely to die in a car crash than experience a false accusation from a woman, but you still drive.
00:43:13You say, okay, I'll accept that risk.
00:43:15And so not talking to women because there are a couple of crazies out there who make false accusations, which you can filter for by looking for shared values and virtues.
00:43:22I mean, they don't know how to assess risk.
00:43:26And, of course, the internet does that because you see some crazy story where a false accusation destroyed some student's career.
00:43:31Maybe he didn't go to jail, but destroyed his academic career.
00:43:35Terrible, awful, absolutely, but so rare.
00:43:37If all you did was stare at car crashes all day, you wouldn't get in a car.
00:43:41But that's not assessing risk at a numerical level.
00:43:44And math illiteracy is really tough for people because if you can't assess relative risk, again, you don't have free will.
00:43:50You're just programmed by negative stimuli.
00:43:53Well, also, I liked – I'm paraphrasing here, but I took one of the points I saw you make was along the lines of, okay, let's just stipulate for the sake of argument that you really are this concern.
00:44:05And, yeah, like you said, they're not inventing things out of whole cloth.
00:44:08They're a horrifying individual case.
00:44:10Okay.
00:44:11And then you said, okay, so if you're that afraid of women because there's a chance down the road they could take half your stuff or whatever and then you don't get to see the kids.
00:44:20Because, okay, but then why was there this huge freakout over the women saying, I'd rather encounter a bear in the woods than a man?
00:44:27Because it's not like there are no examples of men brutalizing women for them to draw upon.
00:44:32And you know what I mean?
00:44:33So it was like, pick one.
00:44:35Like if you want to say, no, I'm terrified of women because there's a slight chance something horrible could happen.
00:44:40Okay, but then you can't be outraged when women say, you know, I'm afraid of men because, well, duh.
00:44:46But yet a lot of these guys, they do both.
00:44:48They're on the one hand like, not all men.
00:44:50How did you can't believe?
00:44:51Oh, my God.
00:44:51You know, statistically how low it is that you're, you know, the man will be there to help you.
00:44:55And, you know, and then at the same time, you can't say hi to a woman, a coffee shop, because basically she's going to have half your stuff by next Thursday.
00:45:01And you'll be in jail.
00:45:03And the other thing, too, is that, and this is just, again, this is older guy.
00:45:06I have older guy privilege, which is I've seen the arc of people's lives, right?
00:45:11I mean, it's all theoretical.
00:45:13You know, you get it from movies, maybe great novels and things like that.
00:45:16Like, what are the arc of people's lives?
00:45:17The little decisions you make at the beginning have massive domino effects down the road.
00:45:22Like if you're sailing from, you know, London to New York and you're off by two degrees, it doesn't matter much at the beginning, but you're going to end up in Mexico by the end, right?
00:45:30So, these little decisions at the beginning.
00:45:32So, I have the privilege of having seen the arc of people's lives, having known them as a child, having known them as teenagers, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s.
00:45:41And it's really clear, I'm sure you, I mean, if you haven't had the same experience, I'm sure you have.
00:45:45But it's really clear that the little decisions that people make at the beginning have huge ramifications down the road.
00:45:50So, you know, you see some woman, you want to talk to her, and you're like, okay, I'm going to go to jail, right?
00:45:55So, okay, but then what happens is you don't get married, you don't have kids.
00:46:00You don't have a community.
00:46:02And, you know, as you sort of age out of the dating market, which, you know, happens to men too, right?
00:46:07I mean, it happens to men as well.
00:46:09For women in the 40s, for men, it tends to be in the 50s.
00:46:12Or then what?
00:46:12So, then you have the pain of regret, and there's no do-over, right?
00:46:16Because people, video games, I don't want to blame them for much because they're not responsible for much.
00:46:20But the sort of save game, oh, I'll give it a try, I'll go back.
00:46:23Life doesn't work that way.
00:46:24You can't circle back, particularly when it comes to dating and fertility windows for women.
00:46:29Like, if you don't have a kid, you can't do it later.
00:46:32You can't go back.
00:46:34There's no control Z.
00:46:35There's no load of previous save game and start over.
00:46:38And so, it really matters the decisions that you make as a young man.
00:46:41You know, the first half of your life has to some degree be about preparing for the second half of your life.
00:46:47And if you think it's scary and negative to talk to a woman in a coffee shop, which could lead to a wife and kids, boy, regret.
00:46:56And now that is one of the worst things at all.
00:46:58Because at least the pain of talking to a woman is going to be somewhat transitory.
00:47:02But, you know, guys in their 40s and 50s who, you know, again, I've talked to these men quite a bit on my show, that the agony of regret is really tough.
00:47:10And you've got a lot of decades of that kind of inner turmoil and negativity.
00:47:14So, just giving the old guy privilege and saying, your fears as a young man, I understand them.
00:47:21But they're overblown relative, right?
00:47:23Oh, this negative thing could happen.
00:47:25But it's overblown relative to regret, which is kind of this permanent marrow rot that sets into people who've made bad decisions.
00:47:34And, again, I tweeted about this shortly before I got platform, which is that, ladies, you know, you're largely infertile at 40.
00:47:42And you're going to live to be 80 or more.
00:47:44Like, what are you going to do for close to half a century?
00:47:47Like, what are you going to do?
00:47:47What are you going to do?
00:47:48How are you going to fill your time?
00:47:49You know, there's only a certain amount of hobbies that are going to do that.
00:47:51At some point, you have to have connection, communication, relationships, love, be surrounded by people who care about you and who you care about.
00:47:58Because, you know, when you get old, you're really going to need people around you who care about you.
00:48:03And you're not going to get that from your Fortnite buddies when you were 20.
00:48:09Let's take a break from the action, folks.
00:48:11For me to remind you, if you like what you're hearing on The Bob Murphy Show, and come on, is there really another podcast like this out there?
00:48:17I don't think so.
00:48:18If you like what you hear, I encourage you to support it.
00:48:21Go to bobmurphyshow.com slash contribute.
00:48:24Every little bit helps.
00:48:25I really appreciate it.
00:48:27bobmurphyshow.com slash contribute.
00:48:29All right, let's get back to the show.
00:48:33Okay, this next one.
00:48:35I hope this comes off properly.
00:48:37I was very pleasantly surprised to see your take on this stuff.
00:48:42Because I had filed it away.
00:48:43I mean, I know I did a response video to you like 15 years ago or something where you.
00:48:49There was some.
00:48:50It wasn't Disney.
00:48:51It was like one of their copycat, whatever.
00:48:52There was some animated film that came out, and you did a review of it.
00:48:55And you were pretty upset about the anti-male messaging in the movie.
00:49:00And I thought you were overreacting.
00:49:02And so I kind of did a response.
00:49:03So anyway, given that that's what I thought you were doing, whatever it was, 15, 20 years ago at this point.
00:49:09And then now to see you this way, kind of like gently teasing the guys about, yeah, yeah, okay, women might do that.
00:49:18But, you know, anyway, I was just very pleasantly surprised.
00:49:20So has there been an evolution you're thinking?
00:49:22Or is it like, no, I totally stand behind everything I said 15 years ago.
00:49:25And what I'm saying now is consistent with that.
00:49:27And what are you talking about?
00:49:27Well, help me understand the contradiction that you see from your end.
00:49:30I, okay, I'll put it this way.
00:49:36I would have thought the guys right now who are, like, pointing out all the statistics about all the ways things can go wrong.
00:49:43You got to watch out women.
00:49:44You know, they're the way that modern feminism has raised them.
00:49:47And this is how they think.
00:49:48You got to be real careful.
00:49:49I would have thought, and perhaps completely erroneously, that 15 years ago, guys thinking like that might have looked to you as one of their intellectual heroes.
00:49:57And that you would have been giving them some ammunition in that respect.
00:50:00Is that totally wrong?
00:50:02No, I talk about danger so that people can avoid them.
00:50:06Right?
00:50:06Not to paralyze people, right?
00:50:08I mean, if you want to start skiing, you don't just push someone off the double diamond and, you know, you gear them up.
00:50:14You put them on the bunny hills.
00:50:15You give them some training, right?
00:50:17So there's dangers to skiing.
00:50:19And you, but that doesn't mean don't ski.
00:50:21That means deal with these dangers intelligently.
00:50:23There's dangers to driving.
00:50:24So, you know, drive defensively.
00:50:26Don't be drunk.
00:50:26You know, get some training if you need it and practice and so on, right?
00:50:31So, yeah, talking about the dangers of your single mothers, of family courts and all of that, that is, you know, when you put your kids on a bike, you say, don't go too fast, you know, and don't turn too hard on gravel and maybe wear a helmet.
00:50:45And, like, you talk about dangers with people so they can navigate and avoid them, right?
00:50:50Not so they don't do anything and just stay home all the time.
00:50:54So, I don't want people going out there and getting chewed up by these systems that are not talked about, right?
00:50:59There's not a lot of people talking to men at least 15 years ago about the dangers that are out there in the world of, you know, bad courts and bad women and all of that.
00:51:07But I didn't talk about these issues so that men could use them as an excuse to not go out and sort of found families and so on.
00:51:15And, of course, the anti-male stuff, I mean, you know this very well, I'm sure, is that men tend to be pro-free speech absolutists.
00:51:22They tend to be smaller government, they tend to be more pro-free market, that's just our, you know, I don't know, testosterone-laced competitive nature or whatever you want to call it.
00:51:30But men tend to be more for competition rather than coercion, at least in the political sense, because coercion has significantly negative effects for men.
00:51:42I mean, we can get killed if you say something wrong and get a duel.
00:51:44So, the anti-male stuff is just any group that wants smaller government gets attacked, and white males tend to be the most pro-free speech and smallest government kind of people for whatever reason.
00:51:56And so, I think the anti-male stuff has to do with political machinations, and I didn't want to warn young men about the dangers, because, I mean, I was raised in a single-mother household, welfare state kind of environment, and I saw a lot of these dangers up front, these women sort of chewing up these men and spitting them out for money.
00:52:11So, yeah, you want to talk about things that are of concern and danger to young men, and, I mean, maybe that's on me.
00:52:19I went too far or something like that, but it was never with the intention of, because I always said, look, I'm happily married, and here's how you can do it.
00:52:25And, you know, when young men would call in, I'd say, well, you know, here's the blocks you probably have to go in to talk to girls, but at some point, you just have to will it.
00:52:31Like, at some point, you know, everybody wants to massage their fears until they're small enough to step over, and it's like, nope, you're going to have to make that leap at some point.
00:52:38So, yeah, I do think that I certainly did talk about the dangers facing young men and the anti-male bias and so on, but I certainly never meant it with the intention of then, you know, stay home and play video games until you're dead.
00:52:52Right, okay.
00:52:53And to be clear, I'm not doing a gotcha or something.
00:52:55I'm just saying maybe it was wrong of me, but I was pleasantly surprised to see when you were back on my radar that the fights you were picking were with the guys saying that, no, no, no.
00:53:07You can't say hi to a woman in a coffee shop.
00:53:09That's a bad idea, you know, so it was, okay.
00:53:12One other big, and this is my fault, folks, that I have a hard stop coming up soon, so in case it looks like this is being truncated, it's on my end.
00:53:20Have your views moved on theological matters in the last decade?
00:53:26Yeah, I mean, I've done a whole I was wrong about series of videos.
00:53:32Yeah, that's a big topic.
00:53:33So, I first spoke to the atheist community, I mean, long before I became sort of a public dude, I was in the atheist community and talking to the atheist community and had great hopes for the atheist community in terms of morals.
00:53:51Morals are the key to everything, and morals are the key to happiness, and reason equals virtue equals happiness, that famous equation from Socrates.
00:53:59So, morals are the key to everything good and positive.
00:54:02You can't have love without morals, you can't have trust, you can't have a high-trust society, you can't have an efficient economy, you can't, you have to have bars on your window and get tested for STDs all the time.
00:54:13So, I am a big fan of ethics, and of course, as a moral philosopher, philosophy is really centered on ethics, because it's the one thing that philosophy does that no other discipline really encapsulates.
00:54:23So, I was in the atheist community, and the atheist community was very much like, oh, Christian morals, you know, it's based on fallacious metaphysics and epistemology, and it's not rational.
00:54:34And I'm like, okay, so what's your answer?
00:54:35And they're like, Darwinism.
00:54:38No, no, no, it's one place you don't want to go to ethics is evolution, because it's all about falsehood and violence, so to speak, because, you know, you deceive and then you eat things.
00:54:48So, and I went to Dawkins, and I went to Sam Harris, went to other people, read a lot about this question of secular ethics.
00:54:55And the atheists got, not only do they not have anything, but even when I put forward a very robust proof of secular ethics in my book, University Preferable Behavior, I got contempt and scorn, hostility and hatred from the, and not any particularly rational rebuttals.
00:55:15And I did a whole bunch of debates with atheists and secularists and so on, and I was like, hmm, as an empiricist, this troubles me.
00:55:22And so, Christianity, of course, kept their ethics, and then one thing I noticed, of course, was that over the attacks that came at me from, you know, a large number of different, obviously, my picture was three times on the cover of the New York Times, Sunday edition, no less.
00:55:38So, when the sort of attacks came in, it was the Christians in my life who were magnificent, and they say, we know that good people get persecuted, whereas the atheists are like, oh, where there's smoke, there's fire, got to run.
00:55:52And they absolutely went to the back rooms, they just vanished, and Christians were there.
00:55:58And again, as an empiricist, it's like, you got to have something right about this.
00:56:02Again, the pandemic reinforced this as well, in that Christians tended to be more skeptical of the vaccine and of the whole process, and the atheists were running around bleating like brainless sheep, trust the science, trust the science.
00:56:16It's just like, you know, science is the exact opposite of trust, right?
00:56:20And so, when it comes to sort of practical matters in the world, atheists believe in the superstition called government and vote for things that take my rights away.
00:56:31Christians believing in God promote really great, rational, acted-out virtues and don't vote for governments, tend to vote for governments that don't want to take my rights away, and obviously sometimes want to restore them.
00:56:43So, from a practical standpoint, and as an empiricist, you know, I can never, ever, as an empiricist, deny accumulated consistent evidence, and Christians were better people than the atheists, were more interested in morality, and understood the world a whole lot better.
00:56:58So, that's kind of hard to ignore, at least I don't want to ignore it, and so, my position on Christianity, given not just the positive behaviors of Christians, but the generally appalling and virulent behavior of atheists, is like, that's not what I expected.
00:57:18And when things don't play out as I expected, it's because I've got something wrong at the essence.
00:57:22So, hopefully that's some sort of answer that makes sense.
00:57:25Oh, absolutely.
00:57:27I don't know if you know this about me.
00:57:29So, I was raised Catholic.
00:57:30I spent a long stretch where I called myself a devout atheist.
00:57:33I thought that was clever.
00:57:35I read, like, George Smith's book on atheism, H.L. Mencken's Treatise on the Gods, Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason.
00:57:43I thought, these are good, but I was going to write the definitive refutation of Christianity.
00:57:47And then I had some stuff happen in grad school, and I spent a period, it sounds like maybe that's where I called myself Christian with a small C, meaning I'm on board with, like, the culture and, like, the political economy of it and everything, you know, Western Europe, blah, blah, blah.
00:58:02It's just, come on, some guy didn't walk on water and he said, give me a break.
00:58:06And then even some stuff happened that pushed me further.
00:58:09So, if you don't mind me asking, like, where are you on that level of, like, do you believe in God or you're not there?
00:58:16I am going to church.
00:58:18I am listening to Christians.
00:58:20I am open to the experience.
00:58:24I cannot will it because I am an empiricist.
00:58:27So, the empirical evidence is that there's a virtue that comes through Christianity that secularism and atheism not only can't compete with, but seems to virulently oppose, which is kind of demonic in a way, right?
00:58:44And, of course, it's, as a persecuted person myself, not to make it too dramatic, I have sympathy with those who are persecuted, and there is really no more persecuted group in the world at the moment than Christians.
00:59:01And so, we have that to some degree in common.
00:59:04So, yeah, I am going to church.
00:59:06I can't will it as an empiricist, but I am certainly open to the experience, and my heart is open,
00:59:14and I'm listening a lot, and boy, I would love it.
00:59:17I mean, honestly, if something happens that is convincing to me, and I'd love to hear these grad stories that yours may be the next time we talk,
00:59:23but if something happens that shows it to me, my gosh, to live forever and to spend eternity with best friends, family, I mean, to be able to cross-examine Socrates back,
00:59:34I mean, that would be glorious beyond words.
00:59:37So, I am wide open and just waiting for the sign.
00:59:40Okay, well, I mean, I'm obviously very glad to hear that.
00:59:43And also, what you just said there to me, because when I didn't believe, that was my stance.
00:59:48I said, oh, yeah, that would be great if it were true.
00:59:50I just, I don't believe it.
00:59:51I'm not going to believe in fairy tale.
00:59:53Like, just like, yeah, if Santa Claus were real, that would be awesome.
00:59:55And I never understood, like, was it Christopher Hitchens and, you know, the strength that, like,
01:00:01the God of the Bible doesn't exist, and thank goodness, you know, in other words, that we're glad.
01:00:05And then it's like, that never made sense to me.
01:00:08So, anyway, I'm heartened to hear you say it that way.
01:00:14Well, let me just, and again, folks, I know that was a big thing for me to bring up.
01:00:18And you're like, well, Bob, why?
01:00:19It's, again, because of the time constraints.
01:00:20I am never resistant to questions.
01:00:22You can ask me anything you want.
01:00:23Yeah.
01:00:25Okay, so it's, well, I think, for example, like, here, let me just pull up.
01:00:34You've got your book, Against the Gods, A Concise Guide to Atheism and Agnosticism.
01:00:37So it looks like, in terms of you, like, I was planning on writing this book, and you actually did write it.
01:00:42So there's no judgment coming from me.
01:00:44But I'm just curious as to, like, you say here,
01:00:47Stephen Molyneux's seminal book, Against the Gods, makes a powerful case against agnosticism for the positive acceptance of the nonexistence of supernatural beings.
01:00:56It's not rational to even entertain the possibility of the existence of irrational entities.
01:01:02And so, okay, it ends here.
01:01:04It provides essential ammunition to those fighting the virus of faith and clears the mental fog of the irrational middle ground between atheism and theism.
01:01:12So I'm curious, just, you know, you think, is it like, because this is how I think, I can remember all this stuff.
01:01:19For example, oh, okay, so there's Adam Eve in the garden, and God says, don't eat from that tree.
01:01:25They do.
01:01:26He's mad.
01:01:27He kicks them out.
01:01:27There's this schism between man and God.
01:01:30He says, you know what?
01:01:31I'm going to send my son.
01:01:32We torture and murder him.
01:01:33And then God says, okay, now we're cool.
01:01:35That doesn't make any sense, right?
01:01:37So I still understand the validity of that argument.
01:01:40It's just now, as a Christian, I could say, that's not the right way to frame it.
01:01:43And let me tell you, and I can say some other true statements also that put that in a, you know what I mean?
01:01:48So is that how you think of that book, that you understand that, you know, any particular argument you made in there is valid?
01:01:57It's just now you're seeing a bigger picture?
01:01:59So, I mean, I've done a whole series recently on Bible verses, and it's sort of exploring that.
01:02:03For me, it's like, let's say that I'm some expert doctor, but every cure that I think works kills the patient.
01:02:11And let's say there's some guy I call, you know, a crazy holistic doctor, and he says, well, you need these herbs, you need these plants.
01:02:19And every time he applies this non-scientific medicine, the patient gets cured.
01:02:24And it's like, wouldn't that give you some pause as to your principles?
01:02:30All the stuff that science validates kills everyone, and all the stuff that's supposedly superstitious stuff cures people, and it's like, you've got to look at that stuff, you've got to examine it.
01:02:40Now, I don't know where you stand with agnostics, but they bother me more than just about anybody else, because taking pride in not making decisions about essential matters in the world is a kind of smug superiority on a lack of intellectual throughput and rigor and consistency.
01:02:56So, this really, the book was very much against agnosticism as a place to avoid making good decisions.
01:03:04It's like, you know, like on the Zoom call, you know, the guy who sits there for an hour and a half and then says, well, nothing really from my end.
01:03:09And it's like, why are we paying you?
01:03:12What is your value here?
01:03:13Right, right, right, right.
01:03:13So, I definitely…
01:03:14Yeah, my take, in my period of devout atheism, my take was when people…
01:03:19Because I had some Christian friends in undergrad that were like, no, no, Bob, you're agnostic.
01:03:24Like, they didn't want me to tell people I was an atheist.
01:03:26And I said, well, are you agnostic about Zeus?
01:03:29You know what I mean?
01:03:30And I would say, yeah, I can't prove Zeus doesn't exist, but if you say, do you believe in Zeus, I'm going to say no.
01:03:34I'm not going to say, well, I don't know.
01:03:35So, that was my take that I thought that was just being wishy-washy.
01:03:39Give me a break.
01:03:39You don't believe in Zeus.
01:03:40I don't believe in Jehovah.
01:03:41Come on.
01:03:42Well, and as I use this analogy in a book I wrote recently about how the atheists, during a time of terrible storms and hails and frozen frogs falling from the sky, came and destroyed the church.
01:03:57And people were then pushed out into a brutal wilderness where a lot of them got sick and died.
01:04:06And the problem is, of course, if you want to say to the West, lose your Christianity, it's not rational, it's not empirical, it's not logical, then, okay, let's say you tear down the church.
01:04:20But that's the only home we have in the wilderness.
01:04:23And the coldness and the callousness of atheists in removing from people's hearts and minds religious faith without providing a system of secular ethics to me is one of the greatest and grandest and most appalling acts of sabotage that has been committed in the world throughout human history.
01:04:41And so, you know, to at least solve my own conscience with regards to that, one of the first things that I worked on was a proof of secular ethics, because if you're going to say to people, I'm going to tear down your church and you don't give them any other place to go, they just die in the wilderness.
01:04:56And I'm really concerned about the atheist motives with regards to that.
01:05:01Well, and that dovetails, I think, that, you know, that famous Nietzsche quote, God is dead and we killed him thing, that in context, that's kind of what he's getting at, right?
01:05:11That he's saying, like, you know, we took God out of public civil life or whatever, and there's going to be some ramifications, right?
01:05:19I mean, so I think sometimes people misinterpret, you know, what he meant by that statement.
01:05:22Yeah, and people without primary source access to universal ethics have only practical considerations to make when resisting tyranny.
01:05:33They do not have moral, absolute reasons to act in resistance to tyranny.
01:05:41Then it just becomes a cost-benefit calculation, as we talked about at the beginning.
01:05:44And when people are making cost-benefit calculations on resistance to tyranny or falsehood or corruption, then all that tyranny, falsehood, and corruption has to do is escalate the punishments to get compliance.
01:05:57Whereas if you have a principle, I mean, for me, what I did, Bob, over the 15 years before I was deplatformed was not a cost-benefit calculation.
01:06:10I mean, you know, given my skills in business and rhetoric and public speaking and so on, I mean, I could have made a ton of money in politics or the media or in sales or whatever it was, right?
01:06:21And I know that because I was in an entrepreneurial sphere where I did fairly well.
01:06:25It's not a cost-benefit calculation.
01:06:26And Darwinism and this sort of reciprocal altruism nonsense that passes for ethics in the secular community fundamentally comes down to a cost-benefit calculation.
01:06:37And that always fuels the rise of tyranny because all tyranny has to do is escalate punishments such as deplatforming.
01:06:43And as you say, the splash damage of, okay, well, we're not going to talk about this as opposed to how I was raised, which was thou shalt not bear false witness and tell the truth.
01:06:52Though the sky's fallen, tell the truth and shame the devil.
01:06:56And I did not want to have my commitment to reason, evidence, and the truth and virtue to be constrained by a cost-benefit calculation because then you really have no integrity.
01:07:09You're just navigating sticks and carrots.
01:07:11I think related to that is there was a guy that would hang out on my blog, like I used to blog, imagine that, years ago.
01:07:23And he was just strident, militant atheist.
01:07:26Like he loved my economic stuff.
01:07:28So he was polite about it, but it was just very, you know, it was kind of like, Bob, you're great six days of the week and then you're out to lunch on Sunday, but, you know, I will forgive you for that.
01:07:35And he came around, so he, I don't think he became like an actual Christian or something, but more recently, like the last I heard from him, it was something along the lines of, he had come to realize that the people running the world in terms of the governments or whatever, genuinely believed they were serving Satan.
01:07:53And he realized the only people that could possibly stand up to this group are those who think they're serving a God, that like secularists, like it's just not.
01:08:02And I've made that point elsewhere that to me, like the rational scientific atheists who think like, no, we're just going to write some more books and whatever.
01:08:09And it's like, you don't know what you're up against.
01:08:11Like, no, the only reason that I would, you know, that I haven't tried to work for the Fed or something is because I, you know, I would, you know, well, God would be disappointed or something, you know what I mean?
01:08:20So, if I just thought this was me, we got the time on the earth and then that's it and you're done, like this, yeah, what I'm doing right now would be stupid.
01:08:27So, anyway.
01:08:28That makes sense, yeah.
01:08:29And when you're in trouble in life and when enemies are circling and the arrows are raining down, it really matters who's coming in the room and who's going out.
01:08:42Who's picking up some weapon metaphorically to fight alongside you and who is despawning and pretending like you never existed.
01:08:51And the atheists did not rally around, even though I was an atheist and had fought strongly for atheist causes, the wild thing was that the Christians who I had attacked rallied around me and the atheists who I had defended, in a sense, either despawned or joined the enemy.
01:09:09And, again, as an empiricist, that's kind of important to notice.
01:09:14Okay, well, let me end with just praising, I don't know if I ever told you this, this is one of the pivotal moments, I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, of my life in terms of me understanding how the world works and what type of people exist.
01:09:28You and I were doing an event in New York City years ago.
01:09:31It was like you had to walk downstairs in the basement and was under there.
01:09:34And it was, you know, you gave your talk and I, you know, I think this is the first time I had seen you live, like I knew, I knew of you or whatever.
01:09:40And then you're sitting there with the mic and it's this intimate setting.
01:09:44And there's, I don't know, 50 people just all around you.
01:09:47And you were like in the middle of the circle, almost fielding questions.
01:09:51Just people were asking you all kinds of stuff and you were just like running shop.
01:09:55And I was just watching this and like, you know, you were funny and everything.
01:09:58And I was like, I can't believe someone like that exists.
01:10:00I was just, so anyway, that was in terms of me just knowing what kind of people exist, that was very impressive to me.
01:10:08And so I don't know what you did to get to that level of confidence and just glibness and seeming to be, you know, know all sorts of stuff about everything and being able to field questions and be funny.
01:10:19But that was, that gave me something like, oh, I want to, you know, in that realm of my public persona, I want to be more like that guy.
01:10:26So thanks for being a role model in that respect.
01:10:28That's very kind.
01:10:29I really, really appreciate that.
01:10:31So folks, my guest has been Stefan Mollet.
01:10:33Where should they go?
01:10:35Freedomain.com?
01:10:36Is that the?
01:10:36Yeah, freedomain.com.
01:10:37I have, of course, a spastic mouthful of Polish syllables in my name.
01:10:42So I think freedomain.com is probably the easiest place to find me.
01:10:46Okay.
01:10:46So thanks, Stefan, for coming here.
01:10:48And yeah, we'll have to continue this conversation at a future date.
01:10:51Anytime, man.
01:10:52Thanks, Emil.
01:10:53Okay.
01:10:53Thanks, everybody, for tuning in.
01:10:55See you next time.
01:10:57You've just experienced another episode of The Bob Murphy Show.
01:11:00The podcast promoting free markets, free minds, and grateful souls.
01:11:06For more information and to subscribe to this podcast, visit bobmurphyshow.com.
01:11:11Get to you.
01:11:17Get to you higher, get to you higher.
01:11:23Get to you higher.
01:11:27God

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