- 7/17/2025
NATO's new spending target of 5% of GDP on defense has been hailed as historic. But is it for real? In an exclusive interview, DW's Richard Walker speaks to Slovenian Foreign Minister Tanja Fajon about how serious Slovenia is about meeting its commitments.
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00:00NATO has agreed on a massive increase in defence spending, to 5% of GDP, to try to stave off
00:06the threat of Vladimir Putin's Russia and keep Donald Trump committed to the alliance.
00:12But is that 5% target all that it seems?
00:15Or is it just skin deep?
00:17Well, debates are emerging in countries around Europe about how to meet those targets, whether
00:22to meet those targets.
00:24And in one country, Slovenia, those debates have hit a new level.
00:28With coalition infighting about the target, even calls for a referendum on whether to
00:33hit that target and whether even to remain a member of NATO.
00:39Could a small country like Slovenia be a place where this whole plan starts to unravel?
00:45We've been speaking to the foreign minister of Slovenia, Tania Fayon.
00:49Tania Fayon, thank you very much for speaking to DW.
00:54Slovenia, your country, spent just 1.3% of GDP on defence last year, according to the
01:00latest NATO estimates.
01:02So, it's very far away from this new NATO target of 5%.
01:07Is Slovenia committed to that target?
01:10I have to correct you.
01:12I think the latest data is 1.53.
01:15But this is the data from NATO's own latest website figures.
01:20We are very much aware we have to do more and we are committed to do more.
01:26And we have a goal to reach 2% of the defence expenditure by the end of this year.
01:33And we have also the government agreement to spend 3% by the end of 2013.
01:39So, that is why it is not an easy discussion back in Slovenia how we will spend this money.
01:46And also at the latest NATO summit we clearly said that we are credible, responsible member
01:52of NATO.
01:53It is our collective security.
01:55And that we will try our best.
01:57The discussion back at home is mostly focused how to get this money, not to go into the account
02:05of the social state, cohesion or the budget.
02:08We will have to use some extra European mechanisms.
02:13But as I said, we have to do more and we are committed to do more.
02:18But your party, the Social Democrats, was opposed to signing up to that increase to 5%.
02:24And also Levitsa, the further left party within your coalition.
02:29So clear divisions within that coalition.
02:31Do you really stand behind that commitment to the 5% target?
02:37We have the only commitment and the only document that was adopted at the government and in the
02:44parliament, 3% by end of 2030.
02:48And then we also know that we will have to be further deciding how to come to spend more.
02:55But currently it's about 3%.
02:58What was happening in Slovenia are the internal domestic discussions inside the government with
03:04the opposition.
03:05And we are very much aware as the political party and as the government that we have to
03:10have to have a serious debate with our citizens to explain where we will get the money and
03:16in what we will spend it.
03:18But as I said, the only obligatory document that the government has is to 3% by the end
03:25of 2030.
03:26And now what was in NATO, we signed political declaration or we agreed on a political declaration,
03:34but knowing that there are some mechanisms to review in 20-29 the percentages.
03:42So we will have to deal still in the future how to increase the budget.
03:45But to be very frank, we have this discussion, which means that it's about 20% of our budget
03:52if we go up to 5%.
03:55So this is still, you know, the period is extended.
03:59For us now the commitment is to get to 2% this year and 3% by 2030.
04:05And also to understand that we want to, you know, extend the use, like a dual use, to invest
04:13in infrastructure, to invest in artificial intelligence, mechanisms to fight cyber hybrid attacks, port
04:24port of copper, et cetera.
04:27So everything that can be also in use.
04:29But I still want to come back to this political discussion because both your party and the
04:35further left party within the coalition signed up to holding a referendum on this target you
04:40talk about of 3% by the year 2030.
04:45Why do you want to take that decision to the people?
04:49Don't you think if every country held a referendum on military spending, would NATO get anywhere?
04:54You mean that there is a discussion of several referendums in the country, also one that
05:00is announced on the membership of NATO.
05:02Yes.
05:03So that's from the prime minister.
05:05I would put everything in the context, and it's a current debate in Slovenia, that people
05:10want to have clear information what the government is committed, what are our obligations.
05:17And believe me, it's an internal domestic debate.
05:20No one is questioning the membership of Slovenia and NATO, me personally not.
05:25Neither our party, but inside our coalition.
05:28We have one coalition partner that is from the very beginning out of any discussion and
05:34any vote on NATO, and this is the far left party.
05:37So this is no news about NATO.
05:41That was always the case.
05:43And now we will also sort out this discussion, I'm pretty sure.
05:47It's also in the light of, you know, how to clear all the discussions we had in the summit,
05:56and also you have to put it in the context maybe of the upcoming elections.
06:01But to be very clear, there is a quite substantive support to NATO membership.
06:07There is no question about it, and also awareness that we will do more, and we are committed
06:12to do more.
06:13But you say it's an internal political discussion.
06:16Obviously, this has very big implications for all of the NATO member states.
06:21If one country looks like it's wobbling on its commitments, first of all, to spending,
06:25and the prime minister, as you mentioned, brought in the idea of actually holding a referendum
06:31on the very membership of NATO, this looks like, like you say, there's an election next
06:36year.
06:37Are you playing politics with the defense security of Europe and NATO?
06:43Once again, we have commitments in Slovenia, and this is very clear.
06:48The government is committed to do more.
06:50It's committed to invest more.
06:52We are doing modernization and the reform of the Slovenian army by 2040.
06:57We have clear goals how to increase the money, but also we have to understand that we have
07:04budget as it is.
07:06Our military budget today is higher than any Baltic countries that is spending.
07:11So we will have to go step by step according to our GDP, and we announce that.
07:17And in Brussels and in NATO, they are very glad to see what we are doing.
07:22There is no objections and no whatsoever discussion whether we are credible member of NATO.
07:32We are, and we are a responsible member of NATO.
07:35We understand in Slovenia that it's about our collective security.
07:39No one is questioning that.
07:40But our security means also invest in infrastructure, invest in satellites.
07:45We just became a member of European Space Agency.
07:48There we see also potential of building our resilience back at home.
07:54And this is also not only that everyone sees is just the question of investing in military
07:59equipment, but also in other equipment that can be used.
08:03And that's part of the NATO agreement from the NATO summit.
08:05Exactly.
08:06And no one is questioning neither our commitment to NATO, Slovenia's or any other countries that
08:13have equal discussions in the society.
08:16I don't find any country that will have an easy discussion when it comes to increase the
08:23military expenditure, especially on the account of a strong social state.
08:28I just want to move on to some other issues, but just to pick up, you just said that Slovenia
08:32spends more on its military than any Baltic country.
08:36To some information, yes, if you look according to GDP of the country.
08:41I'm sorry, but if you look at the figures, the Baltic states spend a much higher proportion
08:45than 1.5 percent, which you just said.
08:48Announcing on what and where we will get if you put now 5 percentage means 20 percentage
08:54of our budget.
08:55Put the numbers together and you get the different context.
08:59Let's step back and just look at the reason for all of this.
09:02And this is the perceptions of a threat emanating from Russia.
09:07German military leaders have talked about Russia potentially, Vladimir Putin wanting to test
09:13Article 5 in the next three, five, seven years, this kind of time frame.
09:18Do you see that risk too?
09:21We see that Russia is a serious threat, absolutely.
09:25That is why the NATO alliance and the strength of NATO alliance and unity is very important.
09:31As I said, for Slovenia, this is the collective security.
09:36And seeing that we are, I don't know, not very far from Ukraine.
09:41We are supporting Ukraine in all ways and we will do so as long as it takes.
09:47I was recently in Odessa, I had a chance to speak with Zelensky, I was several times in Kiev.
09:53And we are hosting many refugees, also orphans, we are trying to help by all means.
10:01And not only how to achieve immediate and unconditional ceasefire.
10:05That is for us a top priority to end violations of international law and of killing of citizens,
10:13innocent civilians and destroying infrastructure, but also how to create conditions for meaningful
10:21negotiations for peace.
10:23And we are talking also as a non-permanent member of the Security Council with many global
10:28partners to increase the pressure on Moscow to stop these attacks in Ukraine and really
10:35to start talking for peace.
10:37And of course a big news on that front this week was Donald Trump's decision to allow the
10:43transfer of American weapons if they're paid for by the Europeans.
10:46Will Slovenia be contributing money to that?
10:51Slovenia has bilateral commitments that we have signed and we so far adopted all the measures
10:56on the EU level.
10:58So here are no doubts.
10:59We are doing as any other EU country and we did also substantial support to Ukraine by now.
11:06Everyone knows and especially in Kiev they are very grateful for that.
11:11So as regards new decisions on the weapons depends on what you are saying.
11:17I know that there is a discussion with Trump selling Patriots to Ukraine, the question who
11:23is paying.
11:24I know that Germany is deciding to pay something, but I have to tell you frankly that many ministers
11:29were questioning where Europe will get the money, who is going to pay that.
11:34So these questions will have to be addressed and I see still quite some uncertainty around.
11:40But Slovenia in principle, would it be prepared to contribute funds?
11:45We are contributing what is agreed on the EU level and what are our bilateral commitments.
11:52So there is no other discussion.
11:54On a side note, in his discussion with Mark Rutte, Donald Trump mentioned Melania Trump, one
12:00of the most famous Slovenian-born people in the world, saying it sounded like the way he told
12:07the story, she was quietly lobbying in the background for more support for the Ukrainians by talking
12:16about Putin's attacks on civilians.
12:19Are you glad to see Melania Trump apparently using her influence in that way?
12:23I mean, frankly, I really cannot comment that because I really don't know what Melania and
12:29what is her influence on Donald Trump, but yes, it's good to know that we have a First Lady,
12:37even though in Slovenia we do not expect in a very near future her visit.
12:45She would be very welcomed in any case.
12:48But it is the First Lady, whatever the relation is, we have to acknowledge that US as a partner
12:56to Europe is very important, also to Slovenia.
13:00We are having close relations, but we also are living in some new reality.
13:07And this new reality in geopolitics is something that we are all challenged.
13:11We do need allies, we do need partners, and mostly partners that do respect international
13:16law, UN Charter, the World Order, and not just things that are focused on transactional relations
13:24or trade relations.
13:26But are you encouraged by Donald Trump's apparent pivot in his view of Vladimir Putin and the
13:34Ukraine war?
13:35I mean, I'm encouraged with the position of US when they really try to engage for a ceasefire
13:42and for negotiations for peace.
13:44I think Europeans and US, we have to work together in that and have the leverage.
13:50And Trump recently, with his rhetorics also, his words with Putin were not very friendly.
13:58So, we need the support of the US here, that is very clearly, and we have to work together.
14:05But, every day brings something new.
14:09Let's put it like that.
14:11I want to speak finally about the situation between Israel and Gaza.
14:16This has been a high priority for Slovenia and its foreign policy recently.
14:20I mean, you've been pushing for a much tougher line on a European level against Israel over
14:27what you see as humanitarian law breaches in Gaza.
14:31Tell us what you're calling for.
14:34Slovenia is calling for an immediate ceasefire.
14:40We see every day civilians being killed.
14:43But everyone is calling for that.
14:44We are calling for a release of hostages.
14:46We are calling for, and I know there are also German hostages.
14:50We are calling for humanitarian aid, substantial humanitarian aid.
14:54Because there is starvation, there is famine, and there is forced displacement of Palestinians.
15:00We see clear signs also of genocide.
15:03You do not need to be an expert to acknowledge that.
15:06And we are against any forced displacement.
15:09We are very worried what is happening on the West Bank with illegal annexation,
15:13with the settlers' violence.
15:16And we are calling for serious discussions on a two-state solution.
15:20We will have a conference now in New York on two-state solution.
15:24Because we see that as the only guarantee for the safety of Israelis and Palestinians living side by side.
15:33It is nothing against Israeli population, but it's against this current government.
15:40Yeah.
15:41But, of course, the Israeli government strongly disputes that claim that genocide is being committed in Gaza.
15:46And many countries around the world also dispute that.
15:50You are also far apart from Germany on the issues.
15:53Because, I mean, you have been talking about saying there should be an arms embargo on Israel.
15:56You have been saying that there should be a suspension of the EU's association agreements,
16:02this vehicle for cooperation between the European Union and Israel.
16:06So you are far apart from, say, Germany's position here.
16:10What is your message to Germany?
16:12Can you understand that because of Germany's historic debt to the Jewish people,
16:18to the State of Israel emanating from its responsibility to the Holocaust,
16:24that Germany will inevitably take a different position on some of these issues?
16:29I don't think that the positions are that different when we discuss in the EU.
16:34Well, you want an arms embargo, Germany does not.
16:37We all call the same things, the same four messages that I said.
16:41But, to be very frank, a month ago we had a review of association agreement,
16:47the Article 2 on human rights.
16:49We clearly got the report that is finding out violations of international law.
16:57Israel is violating international law.
16:59It is written in the report.
17:01And people are watching us.
17:03So if the EU is not reacting on this, we are losing our credibility.
17:09And inside the EU, what we are saying is we have to act.
17:13We have proofs.
17:14We have a report.
17:16There are several measures on the table.
17:19We have to agree on something.
17:22Because, to be very frank, all around the globe countries,
17:26yesterday was a Hague meeting, a group of Hague countries deciding on measures.
17:32They are really criticizing us of having double standards.
17:37I do try to understand countries that think different,
17:41or have maybe historical reasons to think different.
17:44But what we are currently watching on the ground
17:47is people day by day being killed while distributing food,
17:53having no access to medicine, to water, to electricity.
17:58You heard some ministers saying about building the camp in Rafa
18:05to forcefully displace people there,
18:08or forcefully displace them outside,
18:10or calling them animals.
18:12I mean, all that, I believe we have as all countries
18:15that are part of genocide convention,
18:18responsibility, moral and legal responsibility,
18:22to prevent such actions.
18:24Are we doing it?
18:25I'm asking.
18:26Tanya Foyon, thank you very much for speaking to DW today.
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