- 7/15/2025
Welcome to the inspiring story of Mohsen Mahdawi! In his book "Fought ICE and Won His Freedom. For Now.", you'll explore Mohsen's incredible journey to freedom. Join him as he triumphs over adversity and learns the true meaning of perseverance
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00:01In April, after living in the U.S. for more than a decade,
00:05Columbia University student and Palestinian activist Mohsen Madawi
00:10walked into an immigration office.
00:12He was there to become a U.S. citizen.
00:15The agent was interviewing me.
00:17He said, would you be willing to take the pledge of allegiance
00:22to protect and defend the constitution of this country?
00:26And I said, this is why I'm here,
00:28because I believe in the principles of this country.
00:31Of course I will.
00:32And he asked me to sign a document.
00:35So I signed the document and he said, just give me a few seconds.
00:38He opened the back door and all of a sudden, DHS agents stormed the office
00:45and they say, you're under arrest.
00:48It wasn't that long ago that college students were being detained by ICE
00:52because of their protests over the war in Gaza.
00:55And today, despite objections from the federal government,
00:59some of those students have been released on bail.
01:02One of them is Mohsen Madawi.
01:04He's our guest this week on more to the story.
01:06Stay with us.
01:08Hey, this is Al.
01:13And before we start the show, I wanted to talk to you directly, just you and I.
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02:25This is more to the story. I'm Al Edson.
02:37Mohsen Madawi is one of the many students who the Trump administration targeted
02:41because of their pro-Palestinian activism on college campuses.
02:45In fact, Mohsen's friend, Mahmoud Khalil, made headlines just last week
02:50after he was released from federal detention in Louisiana.
02:53Back in April, Mohsen was also arrested.
02:56The Trump administration accused him of jeopardizing U.S. foreign policy.
03:00And later, the Department of Justice brought up accusations from a decade ago
03:05that Mohsen had tried to acquire weapons and talked about targeting Jewish people.
03:10Mohsen denies those accusations.
03:12And a federal judge determined that the claims were unfounded.
03:16Mohsen has since been released on bail and is suing the Trump administration over his detention.
03:22He joins me today.
03:23And just a note, Mohsen's lawyer from the ACLU also sat in on our conversation.
03:28Mohsen, how you doing?
03:32I am.
03:33It's a great pleasure to be with you.
03:35All things considered, I'm doing all right.
03:37Yeah, you went through a really traumatic experience.
03:41I want to kind of unpack all of it.
03:43So let's just start from the beginning.
03:46Weeks before your arrest by ICE in April, you had a feeling that something might happen when you showed up for your citizenship interview.
03:53What tipped you off?
03:54So, Mahmoud Khalil, who is my fellow student and friend from Colombia, he was detained on March 8th.
04:05The night Mahmoud was detained, my phone was ringing over and over and over after 3 a.m.
04:13It was a Saturday, so usually I take Saturdays to meditate.
04:17And generally speaking, I ignore phone calls or when people are reaching out to me.
04:23But when I saw that my phone was basically exploding with messages and phone calls, I decided to answer.
04:31And that's when I big dubbed the news that Mahmoud was detained.
04:37And there was fear and intimidation and serious concern in the student body.
04:43And everybody was encouraging me to leave the city.
04:46But at that time, I said the best course of action would be sheltering in place.
04:52Because most likely if I get outside of the building where I was staying, I would be also, you know, caught, kidnapped and taken to Louisiana.
05:04And that's what sets the feeling for the interview.
05:07So the moment I received the interview, I had conflicted feelings.
05:12Is this an actual interview for my citizenship that I've been waiting for for over than a year?
05:19Or is it a trap?
05:21I imagine when you got the notice that you had this interview and all of this is going on that it feels like this can't be a coincidence.
05:30That's exactly right.
05:31That's exactly right.
05:32And I saw also what, you know, ICE agents have done with other students.
05:37For example, two students from Colombia, one PhD and one undergrad was in Barnard.
05:44They went to their own apartments and dorms and ICE agents were activated there.
05:51The first thing I've done when I received this, I emailed the legal team who I was working with.
05:58And they said, we need to wait on this.
06:01And they, too, were kind of confused.
06:04Yeah, it might be a trap.
06:06It might be a legitimate interview.
06:09But we knew that by that time, because President Trump, in January, he declared that pro-Palestine students would be deported.
06:18And there was a vicious attack by the extreme pro-war, pro-Israel groups that were calling for our deportation.
06:28And they actually launched a campaign against me starting in late January, about two months before Mahmoud was arrested.
06:37What was the mood like on campus prior to Trump's election?
06:45Did you ever think something like this would happen?
06:48I.e. them coming to take student protesters and basically deport them, all because they were just exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech.
07:00The general sense was not there, to be honest with you.
07:04I did not imagine that this is coming up.
07:07And I hear the threats and the promises that is being delivered by Trump.
07:12And actually, some of my friends said, you should speed up your citizenship interview, because what if he comes into a presidency and then he starts deporting people?
07:23And I thought, well, I can see it happening for students with visas.
07:29But I am a green card holder.
07:31I've been in this country for 10 years.
07:33I've seen it through ups and downs.
07:35I've seen the first Trump's administration policies and way of action.
07:41I have not seen anything like this.
07:43So it was a very low possibility on my end, but I did not see it coming this way.
07:49What did you do to try and prevent your detainment when you had a feeling that, you know, this might be coming down the road?
07:58A number of things.
08:00What I did, actually, this is something I learned from Palestine, because I was born and raised in a refugee camp, living under the apartheid system of Israel and under occupation.
08:13So I knew the best thing to do is to limit my contact, to not create routines, to not be in public spaces and to shelter in place, a place where nobody else almost knows except very, very tight, trusted circle.
08:31And in fact, I was sheltering in place for a long time, for over more than 20 days.
08:40I was in the same spot.
08:42I did not leave the apartment.
08:44I also tried to reach out to Columbia to engage the senior administration, telling them that you have encouraged us to free speech and academic freedom, all what we do here.
08:56So I tried to engage Columbia University as well in the conversation to provide protection to me and to move me from off campus, which is I was living basically nearby campus.
09:09But on the street, if I walk outside of the building, ICE agents could detain me.
09:14Do you feel like there was a change in the administration of Columbia?
09:19Or do you feel like this is kind of always who they were, like, since you started there?
09:25I would say that there is a betrayal to the principles and values of the university.
09:32Because when it came to Ukraine, for example, I was at Columbia, and I saw the statements that came out from the senior administration.
09:41They even let Law Library, which is the most significant building if you've been on campus, they lit it with the Ukrainian flag.
09:51And they made very strong statements.
09:54They encouraged the students to speak up and they provided resources to Ukrainian students.
10:01And keep in mind, I lost many family members after October 7th.
10:08And other Palestinian students also lost family members.
10:12When people say the protests you were a part of at Columbia were anti-Semitic and made Jewish students feel unsafe, how do you respond to that?
10:23I would say this is a false accusation.
10:28It's part of this whole agenda of gaslighting American people and capitalizing on the trauma that the Jewish people have from the anti-Semitism in Europe.
10:40And they're pointing the wrong directions.
10:43There are many reasons why this can be easily refuted.
10:47First of all, I have many partners who are Israelis, who see the injustice, who stand against it, and who want to see peace and justice in the region.
10:58So they cannot be anti-Semitic.
11:00They call them self-hating Jews sometimes.
11:03But they cannot be called anti-Semitic.
11:05Israelis and Jews.
11:07The second part, I have actually wrote a paper, a long paper, over 60 pages, about envisioning a peaceful resolution in the Middle East, especially between Palestinians and Israelis.
11:22And to add to all of this, I am a person who is empathetic.
11:26I understand and I empathize with the pain and the trauma of all people.
11:31And my empathy, as I mentioned in many different interviews, extends beyond the Palestinians, my people.
11:41It extends to the Israelis and to the Jewish people.
11:45And my whole project, my whole vision is centered on basically alleviating and relieving the suffering and the pain of the children who are innocent of any guilt.
11:58The children who deserve to live free of trauma, free of pain, free of suffering.
12:05And I am also a Buddhist practitioner.
12:08I believe in non-violence.
12:10I believe in empathy.
12:11I believe in alleviating suffering.
12:13So the accusations of anti-Semitism is just a textbook tactic to basically create more intimidation and fear and to blind people from seeing the truth.
12:26The truth is very clear that there is a genocide in Palestine and there is an apartheid in Palestine and America is funding it.
12:35So going back to the process that you were going through, what's going through your head on the morning of the citizenship interview?
12:48I would say on the night before the citizenship interview, I actually was meditating the night before.
12:56And by that time, keep in mind, I have prepared well before the interview, not only for the questions that I would be asked for the citizenship about the constitution of this country, but also I prepared that this might be a very strong possibility.
13:13So I reached out to my representatives, to the senators and the congresswoman, to house representatives, to my community, tight circle.
13:23And they said, just keep it, you know, confidential, but this is a possibility.
13:27I did interviews with some media telling them this.
13:32I am a peacemaker.
13:33I'm a person who is advocating for ending the conflict and for justice.
13:37And this is my story because if I get detained, I may not have a voice anymore.
13:43And I also prepared with an intelligent team of lawyers who were so prepared that the moment I get captured or detained or with the accurate names kidnapped, because that's what happened, they would be able to file on the spot to prevent my transfer from here to another place.
14:04So this is all before the day off.
14:09I was thinking, how can I be comfortable during detainment?
14:14So what I did is I chose the suit and the shirt that are most flexible and breathable instead of using, you know, a formal shoes that would be difficult on my feet.
14:28I chose a sneaker, a white, you know, slip-in sneaker, and I ensured that, you know, I would be comfortable.
14:37So I was hydrating and trying to just be ready for that moment.
14:41I think it's really important to say just really clearly for the listeners that before this interview, you didn't come to this country without documents, you have a green card, you were documented, you were here legally, all of this stuff that happened to you should not have happened under the rule of law.
15:04That's exactly right.
15:05That's exactly right.
15:06And also, I am like, you know, if one might say a perfect immigrant, I worked in this country, I paid taxes, I learned about the laws and respected the laws never committed a crime.
15:20And I went to the top institutions to learn basically Western education.
15:26And that is what has opened my world.
15:29So to make this exception and to want to basically silence me, that's what they wanted, and to intimidate other students to make an example of me is really a great violation, I would say, to what we have seen in this country, even to the rule of law.
15:47Can you tell me about the arrest itself?
15:50In the back of your mind, and maybe not even the back of your mind, in the forefront of your mind, you knew that this was a possibility.
15:57So you walk into or you're heading to the interview that's been set up with immigration.
16:04Talk me through the arrest.
16:05How did it all happen?
16:06We entered the USCIS office, which is, you know, the immigration where my interview should take place.
16:14It was myself, the lawyer, and a friend of mine.
16:19After we arrived, within less than 10 minutes, the lobby had nobody.
16:25Everybody was processed and left the office, except us, just three people sitting in the lobby.
16:32And it gets so quiet to the point.
16:35I looked at my lawyer and my friend and said, the storm and the calm before the storm.
16:42Well, the interview took place.
16:46I answered everything as I should.
16:49And I answered the questions.
16:52And there was this moment actually after I was quizzed on the test, you know, before you become a citizen, you have to study a hundred questions about this country and the institution.
17:03So I answered them correctly.
17:06And the agent who was interviewing me, he said, would you be willing to take the pledge of allegiance to protect and defend the constitution of this country?
17:19And they said, this is why I'm here.
17:21Because I believe in the principles of this country.
17:24Of course I will.
17:26And he asked me to sign a document.
17:29So I signed the document and he said, just give me a few seconds.
17:32He opened the back door.
17:34And all of a sudden, DHS agents stormed the office and they say, you're under arrest.
17:42They isolate me from my lawyer.
17:44They don't show me any paperwork.
17:46And they give them my hands.
17:48I didn't want to be handcuffed, you know, to the back of, to my back.
17:52So I gave them my hands and they say, I am a peaceful man.
17:55I'm not going to resist.
17:56And I have to give them credit because they did not make the cuffs too tight on my hands.
18:03And I noticed that they were gentle.
18:05And this is something, you know, special to Vermont, that generally speaking, even if you deal with ICE agents or with police in Vermont, the culture is a little bit different.
18:18And that is when basically I was taken out directly into an unmarked SUV.
18:25And that's the moment when I was very calm.
18:28I was able to be so aware of my surrounding and I saw somebody with a phone recording.
18:35And that's when I saw him, I wanted to send a message and I gave the V sign and I smiled.
18:44When we come back, Mohsen discusses growing up in a refugee camp in the West Bank and the harrowling things he saw as a child that still linger with him today.
18:54I felt that burn inside of me.
18:57That is unjust.
18:58He shouldn't have been killed.
19:00He's an innocent kid.
19:01But before we continue our conversation, I want to remind you that there is an easy way to keep up with all the important work we're doing here at Reveal.
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19:25Okay, we'll be back soon with more from Mohsen Madawi.
19:28Don't go anywhere.
19:38Hello, listener.
19:39My name is Najeeb Amini and I am a producer here at Reveal.
19:44Reveal is a nonprofit news organization and we depend on support from our listeners.
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19:52Donate today at revealnews.org slash donate.
19:56It helps fund the stories that we tell and helps me feed my cat.
20:01So thank you.
20:09This is more to the story.
20:11I'm Al Ledsen and I'm talking with Palestinian activist and Columbia student Mohsen Madawi.
20:17And a quick warning that some of our conversation contains graphic descriptions of the kind of violence Mohsen was exposed to as a child.
20:25One of the things that really struck me was something that you had talked about before, which is the revelation while being detained about following the footsteps of your family members and your elders.
20:43Can you kind of talk me through that?
20:45I thought that I was off the hook the moment I left Palestine.
20:49And off the hook means that I am no longer subjected to systems of injustice and being detained unjustly and being put in prison and being persecuted just for speaking up for justice and for truth.
21:07So over the years, after my family was exiled into the West Bank, into a refugee camp, my grandfather was arrested unjustly and put in prison.
21:20My father and my uncles and recently, also over the past, you know, two decades, my cousins.
21:30So when I was detained and put in a cell in a prison that was seven by twelve.
21:38This is the dimension of it.
21:40I really started thinking of how did they feel, my family, and I felt connected to them.
21:49And it was ironic that this is happening in the United States in a place where I first knew the experience of freedom.
22:00I never knew what freedom is before coming to the United States.
22:04Now I am being detained for speaking about my first hand experience, the pain, the loss, the trauma that I felt in the refugee camp.
22:14And there was this very strong image, actually, because, you know, there is routines in the prison.
22:21So the guard would come with a flashlight at night and they would check regularly.
22:28And how would they check?
22:30They would shine the light through the squared window in the door.
22:35And one night, while I am laying in the bunk bed, the light was so strong in my eyes.
22:44It flashed in my eyes and with it, I had a memory flashing of my uncle, Abed, who had permanent red eyes from the torture in Israeli prisons.
22:56And that's when I started connecting this whole image with my uncle, with my cousins, and with my father and my grandfather.
23:05When you were younger, you experienced some violent incidents growing up in the West Bank.
23:10Can you tell me about those and how they shaped your worldview?
23:15So as a child, you know, just living in a refugee camp is a level of suffering.
23:23Very tight place, 60, almost 61 acres with about 10,000 people.
23:31You have no space to play, no space to study except in refugee schools.
23:37And it's a very difficult experience.
23:41Add to this the very traumatic experience during the second Intifado.
23:47And as a child, I saw my best friend who was actually a black Palestinian, 12 years old.
23:55His name is Hamada.
23:57Was shot by an Israeli soldier and killed in front of my eyes.
24:01We were playing basketball before.
24:04And basketball without having actually a basket in the street.
24:07We just like shooting over kind of an edge.
24:11And if it lands 90 degrees, we consider it, you know, that we scored.
24:15Very innocent kid.
24:17Oh, his life was taken in a second.
24:20And I felt that burn inside of me.
24:23That is unjust.
24:25He shouldn't have been killed.
24:26He's an innocent kid.
24:28Also, I lost my uncle, September 12, 2001, after September 11.
24:34And that's actually my, was my 11th birthday.
24:37Instead of my uncle celebrating my birthday, I walked in his funeral.
24:44And I saw him with blood on his beard and blood on his body.
24:48He was shot twice in the head and once in the shoulder.
24:51And for a child, this is a traumatic experience to lose somebody who you look up to.
24:57And after that, Al is, I mean, this series continues.
25:03I lost two cousins.
25:05I was shot in my leg when I was 15 years old.
25:08And the trauma of like the explosions, the shooting, seeing people, body parts just torn apart all over the place.
25:18And skin sticking on walls where I had to peel it with my little hands when I was 12 years old to put their bodies in plastic bags.
25:28That's all very strong images, trauma that can live with us forever.
25:34And I feel very blessed that I was able to process this trauma and to heal from it.
25:39Here in America, America provided me and Vermont provided me with the space to reprocess and to feel a little bit safe.
25:47And to be able to heal from this.
25:50So those experiences, you feel at west in your stomach.
25:54You feel a rage at the beginning and anger when you see them.
25:59This is something weird to say.
26:01I'm grateful for this path of suffering.
26:04Because without pain and suffering, I would not understand what healing and joy is.
26:11Without this path of loss and trauma, I may not have that strong sense of empathy to alleviate stress and trauma.
26:21And seeing what's happening now in the West Bank and in Gaza and even what's happening in Iran and in Israel.
26:29It makes me just empathize with children who are going through this.
26:33Wars are not an answer to making peace.
26:38After this long journey and everything that you've gone through here in the United States, do you still want to be a U.S. citizen?
26:48I think the United States is in a very critical stage of its life.
26:55The country is in danger.
26:57I see that.
26:59And I'm not alone.
27:01It's every other American who is concerned about equality, who is concerned about democracy.
27:09It's a struggle for humanity.
27:11And what's going to happen in America is going to affect the rest of humanity.
27:15So do I want to be a citizen?
27:17I am in solidarity with people here.
27:19We'll see what's going to happen.
27:21I hear you.
27:23That's not a clear answer though.
27:26So are you saying that like...
27:29Listen, I wouldn't blame you for feeling differently after everything that you've gone through.
27:35This is not a trick question.
27:37I'm just curious that like after everything you've gone through, you know, would going to Canada be better?
27:44And so I just imagine that there's got to be this feeling of like, where do I call home?
27:51What's the alternative?
27:53The alternative is putting my life under risk to go under apartheid system that might assassinate me, that might imprison me, that might shoot me.
28:05To live in a West Bank under the Israeli terrorist settlers who are living there and attacking Palestinian communities every day.
28:15So this is the only home actually that I've known when it comes to being safe and loved.
28:22And yes, I want to be a citizen in this country.
28:25When I look at the history of this country.
28:29And I think of Martin Luther King Jr.
28:32He was in prison, no?
28:34He was treated badly, no?
28:36He was spied on, no?
28:38He was attacked, no?
28:40John Lewis.
28:41His head was, you know, he was hit with a pat.
28:46And he continued to be persecuted and he was imprisoned.
28:51But they did not give up on the principles.
28:53Because the principles are good principles, to be honest with you.
28:56The issue is the application of those principles.
28:59What makes America great, really, is this diversity and this continuous momentum for struggle.
29:07And it's a struggle, some people think, for racial equality.
29:11No, it's a struggle for humanity.
29:14We all now are yearning for this equality for humanity to be seen, to be respected, and to have our freedom and our rights.
29:23And we are in this together.
29:27Mohsen Madawi, thank you so much for coming in and talking to me today.
29:30Thank you, Al.
29:31It's a great honor and pleasure.
29:33And hopefully the next time we will be taking a hike in Vermont.
29:37Or somewhere in nature.
29:38Ah, I would love to.
29:39I would love to.
29:40Let's do it.
29:44That was Palestinian activist Mohsen Madawi.
29:47We reached out to Columbia University for a response to Mohsen's claims
29:51that they did not provide him with a safe space or offer a public statement or legal counsel.
29:57As of this episode posting, we have not heard back.
30:03If you liked this conversation, you should check out the reveal episode,
30:06Gaza, A War of Weapons and Words.
30:09It's about the heated protests that erupted on Columbia's campus
30:13in the wake of Hamas' October 7th attack on Israel.
30:17And it includes an interview with Mohsen about his role in the protests on campus
30:22more than a year before he was detained by ICE.
30:25Lastly, just a reminder, we are listener supported.
30:29That means listeners like you.
30:31You can help us thrive by making a gift today.
30:34Just go to revealnews.org slash gift.
30:37Again, that's revealnews.org slash gift.
30:41This episode was produced by Josh Sandberg and Cara McGurk-Allison.
30:45Theme music and engineering helped by Fernando, my man, Yo Arruda,
30:49and Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs.
30:51I'm Al Hudson, and you know, come on, let's do this again next week.
30:54This is more to the story.
30:56From PRX.
31:19from PRX.
31:23.
31:29.
31:36.
31:38.
31:42.
31:44.
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