- 2 days ago
The Indian defence capabilities are going to get a big boost with the government approving the "execution model" for implementing a major indigenous project to develop fifth-generation, deep-penetration advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) for the Air Force, potentially making us the fourth country to possess such stealth fighter jets. At the moment, the plans are to import them.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Quest for India's 5th generation fighter jet is our top focus on this Battlecry special broadcast.
00:21I'm Gaurav Savan.
00:22The Indian Air Force that played a very crucial role in targeting initially the terror launch pads,
00:29bases, and the headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba in Jaish-e-Muhammad during Operation Sindhur.
00:34And of course, along with 9 terror bases, 11 air bases of Pakistan Air Force.
00:39Very crucial air force bases from Noor Khan to Sargoda, from Jacob Abad to Bholari,
00:44from Skardu in Pakistan-occupied Jammu in Kashmir to Raheem Yahr Khan.
00:49Now that is air power and missile power.
00:52One of the most important lessons from Operation Sindhur was the need of a modern air force.
00:58And in the context of Indian Air Force, the need for 5th generation fighter jets.
01:04The big question, should India's 5th generation fighter jets be made in India,
01:09or at least for now, buy from the world?
01:13And then, is there a third option available that's buy for now, but then make in India?
01:19The Pakistan Air Force is reportedly seeking the Chinese J-20s, though of course there are contradictory claims that are coming in from Pakistan.
01:27But can India still build and buy?
01:31Multiple questions we seek answers to.
01:34Especially at a time when India's defense secretary, Rajesh Kumar Singh, was recently quoted saying,
01:40India is actively considering the acquisition of 5th generation fighter jets from key allies as a shorter measure.
01:49And this is to bolster the IAF capabilities.
01:52He spoke of discussions with global partners, including potential likely offers from the US, for example.
01:59The F-35s or the Russian Su-57s.
02:03The IAF, as of now, does have a capability gap.
02:07India's indigenous AMCA, or Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft Programme,
02:13it is moving towards the projected induction, perhaps by 2035, if all goes well.
02:202038 or 40, if all doesn't go well.
02:24AMCA programme has entered the procurement stage.
02:26There's already an expression of interest, or EOI, issued to Indian companies for a prototype development.
02:33And that's a huge step that the Narendra Modi government has taken.
02:37But what is the 5th generation aircraft?
02:41Analysts say a 5th generation aircraft has certain capabilities, like enhanced stealth, a supercruise, advanced avionics, network-centric warfare capabilities.
02:51And it's also a multi-role aircraft.
02:55It has multiple multi-role capabilities.
02:57For example, air supremacy, air superiority, air dominance, the choice of words is yours.
03:02But also ability to strike, ground strikes, electronic warfare, suppression and destruction of enemy air defences.
03:10And as of now, there are three countries that have the operational 5th generation fighter.
03:16The F-22 Raptors of the US, along of course with the F-35 Lightnings, the Su-57 that Russia operates and has offered to India, and China's Chengdu J-20s.
03:28These are the capable 5th generation aircraft, J-20.
03:33There are some analysts who have certain questions that they have raised about the stealth capabilities.
03:38But there are countries that are fast moving towards building these aircraft.
03:43For example, South Korea, the KF-21EX.
03:46Now, that's expected to be inducted in the next couple of years.
03:50Turkey, it's moving for the TAITF, the ex-cons.
03:54Perhaps sometimes in the mid-2030s, then there are those collaborative programs, the Global Combat Aircraft Program.
04:01So, you have the United Kingdom, Japan, Italy, they are moving towards this future combat air system.
04:09And you have countries like France and Germany and Spain that are working on developing a 5th generation or perhaps, as some argue, maybe even the 6th generation fighter jet.
04:19But then these aren't operational platforms just as yet.
04:23What are India's options?
04:27On the Chakraview podcast, I had a conversation with Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadoria, former Chief of Air Staff.
04:34And I asked him, what are India's options?
04:38Where is India right now?
04:39And what should India be doing?
04:42Listen in.
04:42If we don't have our own fighter jet engines, even our Kaveri, I think, is at 75 kilonewton power and we require 110, isn't it?
04:53What do we do?
04:54How do we go forward?
04:56No, I myself think that the effort in Kaveri should have continued at a much higher pace.
05:02And in the last 10 years, we've slowed down.
05:05I don't know why, but it is because you must remember about 20 years plus have gone into Kaveri development.
05:16And every development gives you products and lessons.
05:19And today, the engine that is going on to our first, you know, unmanned stealth, if you talk about it, is the Kaveri dry engine.
05:28Correct.
05:28So, there's already a product out of it.
05:32What is important now, when we talk of stealth fighter aircraft, we don't have engines.
05:38So, there's another program in the works in terms of joint development and getting that, you know, 120 tonne class, 115 tonne plus at least.
05:48So, that should happen.
05:49It's very important.
05:51And that technology is also important for the future unmanned stealth also.
05:55The current unmanned stealth would not give us everything.
05:59It has limitation in terms of, you know, wherever is the first design.
06:03We need to go towards supersonic stealth and have an aircraft of fifth generation stealth equivalent in unmanned category too.
06:10Okay.
06:11So, this is the future.
06:12Are you looking at a time frame?
06:14We are already behind.
06:16I think we are already behind.
06:17And that's why I'm happy that the government has said the private sector needs to step in in the fifth generation aircraft.
06:24Similarly, a complete whole of nation approach for all our fighter production and all our unmanned aircraft production, including engines.
06:33It will give us results.
06:35So, we really have to put all our industrial might behind it.
06:38And indigenously.
06:40And that is important.
06:41Should India build or buy the fifth generation aircraft?
06:47Remember, India had a very robust roadmap for fighter jet manufacturing with the HF-24 Marut.
06:54But it hit an air pocket.
06:55And India could not take off in the right earnest for many, many years.
07:01With Pakistan acquiring the US-made F-16 fighter jets, Indian Air Force was forced to go in for the Mirage 2000 fighter jets and the MiG-29s.
07:10Two squadrons each.
07:12But then, that Make in India project kept on facing very heavy headwinds.
07:17The light combat aircraft Tejas again had a troubled journey after the Pokhra nuclear tests.
07:24And also, of course, subsequently with the Kaveri engine and the GE-404s.
07:30Now again, there is talk of Pakistan getting its fifth generation fighter jets from China.
07:36And there is pressure to buy again.
07:39Is history repeating itself?
07:42What are India's options?
07:44Joining me on this Battle Cry special broadcast, Air Marshal Anil Chopra, former Director General of Centre for Air Power Studies.
07:52And Air Marshal Anil Khosla, former Vice Chief of Air Staff.
07:55And two seasoned air warriors who've studied the subject very closely.
08:01Always a privilege having two seasoned air warriors on the broadcast, sir.
08:07Welcome.
08:07Air Marshal Chopra, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, in May, approved the AMCA program with an initial budget of 15,000 crore for five prototypes.
08:18The first flight is expected by 2028.
08:21And all going well, serial production targeted for 2035.
08:26And the Indian Air Force is talking about seven squadrons of AMCA.
08:32What do we do in the meantime, sir?
08:36Yeah, Gaurav, always a pleasure to be with you.
08:39I know this is a hot debate going on in the country.
08:4215,000 crores, which is around $2 billion, have been put on the table.
08:47But a lot of activities are still to be done on the AMCA.
08:50We know that a private partner has to be chosen.
08:54And then thereafter, it's no more an SPV, but a joint venture between ADA and directly with that private partner is what we are hearing.
09:04So a lot of activities are still.
09:06Let's see what is the current status of the AMCA.
09:08You know, we have the critical design reviews over about two and a half years back.
09:14Thereafter, the metal cutting has been begun, but a lot of work.
09:19And for the first time during Aero India, we were shown a real-sized mock-up, you know, made by a private company.
09:26So there is action unfolding.
09:28But I'm telling you, knowing the timelines of the ALCA Mark I, we know that Mark I is already behind by 18 years and therefore 18 months.
09:38And therefore, we have to be cautious of the timelines.
09:41Now, when you say 2035, it is series production beginning.
09:46That's 2035, what they're saying.
09:48And therefore, actual induction or crystallization is a little far.
09:53And if you go by the normal timelines, I will be more realistic if we get by 2038 or somewhere around that.
10:01So AMCA is there.
10:04It has to succeed for India to become a significant power.
10:08We require a stealthy aircraft.
10:1020 air forces of the world have stealth aircraft.
10:13It will be sad that the fourth largest economy of the world, which will be third largest very soon, won't have a stealth aircraft.
10:20And Pakistan, an impoverished nation, who's going to IMF for seeking money all the time, will get a fifth-generation aircraft.
10:27I'll buy it.
10:28It will be from China, their old friend, who will perhaps give them at a very, very discounted price.
10:34So this is the physical situation.
10:35Or maybe just for free.
10:36China will give it to them for free just to checkmate India.
10:40But Air Marshal Khosla, if I could draw you into the conversation, can India afford to wait?
10:46What are India's options?
10:50Yeah, I feel it's in a very, very difficult situation.
10:58And we have landed up in this situation over a period of time.
11:01We're not modernizing in time and getting things in time.
11:04And even if we procure from outside, it will take time.
11:08Having said that, now we have to move forward.
11:11And options available are very, very straightforward, that we have to spend money.
11:17We have to do whatever it takes to make the things work.
11:20Self-reliance in the long term is the only way ahead.
11:23But while supporting self-reliance, you have to maintain minimum deterrence level, which depends on your enemies and the capabilities of enemies.
11:32So if you see China and Pakistan, both are, you know, China is racing ahead.
11:37Pakistan is also getting pulled along with them and catching up.
11:40So we need to maintain that minimum deterrence level.
11:43And if self-reliance doesn't work in time, we need to procure from outside.
11:47Okay.
11:47And in such a way that it doesn't kill our self-reliance project.
11:51That's a very important point you've made, sir.
11:54And let's spend some time on this.
11:57Air Marshal Chopra, analysts have argued India lacks, at least as of now, and you can tell us better, you know, adequate expertise, one, in stealth.
12:08In jet engines, we know, you know, Kaveri engine, perhaps for our U-cavs.
12:14But for fighter jets, we will have to either buy and buy and build integrated avionics.
12:20Now, if all of this does become an issue, this may delay timelines, as you indicated, you know, from 35 to 38, maybe 2040, as some have argued.
12:31The Indian Air Force, the current squadron strength between 30 and 32, way below sanctioned of 37 and a half, way below our dream of 42.
12:42What do we, you know, envisage?
12:45What will happen by 2035 or 38?
12:47Is there, as Air Marshal Khosla also pointed out, in the interim, no alternative but to acquire two, three, four squadrons?
12:58You know, Gaurav, I have looked at three possible options.
13:02Okay.
13:03My three options.
13:04Option number one, acquire 114 Rafale F4.
13:09F4, that's the one being inducted presently with France.
13:13Subsequently, make it F5, and we are going to make the Rafale Fuselage in India.
13:17I think that would be fantastic.
13:18And thereafter, push AMCA.
13:22That, I think, is a universal.
13:23Between all three of us, all of us agree that AMCA has to be pushed.
13:27Lots more money has to be put on the table.
13:30After Op Sindhu, acquire more S-400s and S-500s to increase your air denial capability, both for the northern and the western front.
13:40Gramos Mark II, the hypersonic one, has to be pushed.
13:45The Astra Mark III have to be pushed.
13:47These are indigenous programs.
13:49We are in advanced stages.
13:51We need to give them a little nudge.
13:52This is, and maybe acquire interim R-37M from the Russians for the Su-30.
13:58So, this is option number one.
14:01Option two is do all this and buy two squadrons of a fifth-generation aircraft, maybe the Su-57, if F-35 is not on offer.
14:11So, we buy these tools.
14:13And the third option is to join one of the foreign programs.
14:18And my personal view is option number two.
14:21That means accelerate our indigenous programs, which I have just mentioned.
14:26And still buy two squadrons of interim aircraft because our own program is at least 15 years or so away for the induction of the fifth-generation aircraft.
14:3815 years and we cannot afford additional delays.
14:44Air Marshal Khosla, you agree India should seek, acquire some squadrons of whatever aircraft.
14:53Look at acquiring some fifth-generation fighter jets.
14:57But in your view, if we were to do this, what would it mean for indigenous AMCA program?
15:03Would it delay or destroy that program?
15:07That's why I said a lot of debate goes on between, you know, the question is or and.
15:13You know, a lot of people say that whether AMCA or procure from outside, indigenous or outside procurement.
15:20It is not a question of or, it is a question of and, to my mind.
15:24It's very clear.
15:25As I said earlier, minimum interest value has to be maintained.
15:28And to maintain it, we need to procure whatever numbers we need to maintain that minimum interest value.
15:35And as I said, it's not an easy task.
15:38It's quite a difficult task.
15:39Firstly, it will cost a lot of money.
15:40And secondly, the negotiation has to be in such a way that the transfer of technology, whatever contract we go in with, the humor we go in with, that it supplements our self-reliance.
15:53You know, the technology which is lacking, you know, engine is very, very straightforward.
15:57First thing which comes to mind, thereafter, you know, radar and avionics and other things come.
16:01So, it should complement our self-reliance and not kill it.
16:08It should not be detrimental to our self-reliance efforts.
16:12Okay.
16:13Air Marshal Chopra, will acquisition of two almost squadrons of fighter jets in your appreciation, will it delay or destroy our indigenous program?
16:23Or is there no alternative or and it has to be and as Air Marshal Khosla also points out?
16:29Absolutely.
16:31Gaurav, it has to be and.
16:33You know, let me tell you why we are insisting that we buy two squadrons of, you know, a foreign fifth generation aircraft.
16:42Look at the technology status in the country.
16:46You know, we are still at Mark 1A stage.
16:49Not even there.
16:50One stage.
16:51Not even there, yeah.
16:51We have to, we have not reached the Mark 2 stage, which is a different level of technology, which is supposed to be closer to the Rafal.
16:58And look at stealth.
17:00You know, we have decided that the AMCA will be divided into two.
17:04Mark 1 and Mark 2.
17:06Mark 2.
17:07Why?
17:07Because in Mark 1, there will not be sufficient stealth.
17:13Maybe we will have external stores.
17:15We will not have a, we may, we will have GE 414 engine.
17:20Our intakes will not be sedated or so will not be the exhaust.
17:24So there are going to be issues in our development plan.
17:29So if that is the plan we are already talking of, that we are going to divide the AMCA into Mark 1 and Mark 2, that shows that there are technology level issues.
17:40And mind you, stealth is not easy.
17:42Of course, I do not want to compare what the, what happened to the F-35 in Trivendrum, because if they were stuck for nearly a month, that also backed by the greatest power of the world, USA and Britain having, you know, all the facilities and backups.
18:02So you can imagine fifth generation aircraft, not easy.
18:05They are complex.
18:06And if the timeline is being set by DRDO chief and HAL, whatever they are today, you can expect some further delays.
18:15And therefore, there is a read for and.
18:18I only hope that and doesn't become from two interim to four interim Scottons.
18:24As far as money is concerned, I think A. Marshall Khosla mentioned about money.
18:29Everybody in New Delhi gives us an impression that there is no shortage of money.
18:33Any amount of money will be given.
18:34I hope that will happen.
18:37But before that, we need to find a good private partner who will be able to drive the management of such a, you know, big program.
18:45You know, because this is a yagya for nation building.
18:48And whatever, whether it's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited with the LCA Tejas or the private sector that is coming in,
18:56they consider it their national duty to ensure there are no delays.
19:00Whatever best needs to be done should be done.
19:02Air Marshal Khosla, you know, when we talk of this interim period, you heard Air Marshal Chopra talk of more BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles,
19:13more S-400s, perhaps S-500, more unmanned combat aerial vehicles.
19:19Can UAVs and UCAVs and long-range air-to-air, surface-to-air, surface-to-surface missiles, can they fill in this gap?
19:29If we are looking at an interim, what is the period we are talking about?
19:33Five years, ten years?
19:34Can this interim be filled with these measures?
19:38Gaurav, you rightly pointed out a very valid point.
19:42Actually, post-structure planning of any military or strictly air force is a continuous process.
19:48Even Indian Air Force does this post-structure planning and review periodically, depending on what technology is doing,
19:55what advancements are taking place, what new platforms and weapons are coming into the market,
19:59what are the lessons coming out from the recent wars?
20:02And if you see the recent wars, they are all becoming no-contact warfare, long-distance stand-off precision warfare.
20:09So the role of drones, loitering munitions, missiles is becoming stand-off missiles with precision is becoming very, very important.
20:16So the post-structure planning, people who are dealing with it, I'm sure are looking into it,
20:21and balance has to be maintained between the manned fighter aircraft as well as these other fourth multi-class and the new technology which is coming in.
20:31And the last point about this aspect is that it's not a question of only long-distance missiles and stand-off weapons, no fighters.
20:43It has to be a combination of both. That is where the post-structure planning comes in.
20:48And that is where, absolutely, you know, what we learned from Operation Sindhur, A. Marshall Chopra, you A. Marshall Khosla,
20:54and I have had multiple conversations since the 10th of May, and we saw the manner in which India was able to decimate Pakistani air bases,
21:03whether it was Noor Khan, or let's just pick up, you know, from Skardu in Pakistan,
21:07occupied Jammu and Kashmir, down to Bolari in Sindh, take out their Malir Khan contornment in Karachi through Raheem Yahr Khan,
21:18Jacob Abad, Sargoda, that stuff, legends are made of, and India has been able to do it.
21:23So is there reason to panic or be very, very concerned or move in for the interim?
21:28Because let the enemy fear, if his aircraft go up, those aircraft, you know, will not land, they'll crash.
21:36A. Marshall Chopra, has Ukraine also been able to show with its drones, it can use disruptive technology to keep a very powerful adversary like Russia in check?
21:47They've been able to, you know, this war between Russia and Ukraine has been on for three years and counting.
21:53You know, Gaurav, during Ops Indhur, and also in Ukraine, we know that the standoff weapons, the loitering munitions,
22:00like in case of Ops Indhur, we know that the BrahMos did an excellent job, so did the Scalp, and so did the loitering munitions,
22:09the Harop and Harpi, mainly the Harop being expensive and a more accurate and a longer-range weapon.
22:16So they have done extremely well, undoubtedly.
22:19Drones have a big role.
22:21You know, immediately after Ops Indhur, huge amounts of money have been given to the three services.
22:25There is, right now, a large amount of purchases being done, you know, of drones.
22:31Drones have many other roles.
22:33We also saw that we used the ME-80, you know, which was a decoy we used, which imitated Rafal,
22:40and Pakistanis kept claiming, having shot down, actually they sort of were targeting this toward decoy.
22:48So therefore, undoubtedly, electronic warfare, an area which requires a lot of, you know, action and investment.
22:56So there are many other lessons.
22:58We will not get into the, you know, lessons from Ops Indhur, but clearly drones have a role out-of-the-box thinking,
23:05like the Israelis did in Iran or did, the Ukrainians did when they hit targets 4,000 kilometers deep into Russia,
23:12totally out-of-the-box, required a lot of intelligence, required various other types of supports.
23:18Undoubtedly, all this is required, but when it comes to choosing between a fighter aircraft,
23:23remember for the next 70 years, all fifth and sixth generation aircraft in the world are fighter aircraft.
23:29They're going to be there till the end of this century, and therefore there should be no debate.
23:35While the others are required, so is the fifth generation aircraft required, and required urgently.
23:40Mind you, fifth generation aircraft allows better penetration, will allow you to come much closer,
23:47it will give longer distance and range, as well as speed to your aerial weapon, which can hit much deeper, yes.
23:55Okay, very pertinent point, sir.
23:57Marshall Khosla, if we were to look at the current fifth generation fighters that may be available,
24:04I'm not saying they are, may be available, if we were to choose between the Suu 57 and the F-35s,
24:12and given that an F-35, and you have a smile on your face,
24:17Air Marshal Chopra had pointed out that one of the F-35s had a great holiday in Kerala,
24:23at the Thiruvananthapuram Airbase.
24:25Your appreciation, your assessment, what's better suited for India?
24:31Or, as some have argued, more Suu 30 MKIs, upgraded Suu 30s with BrahMos as an interim, sir.
24:39Yeah, so, if there's a choice between the US or the Russian campus debate also goes on.
24:45So, both have got their own issues and aspects related to it.
24:48You know, the Americans, they had put sanctions on us at times.
24:53The engine got paid for, they just mark one A.
24:57And so, the fear is, you know, tomorrow if the tab closes, what happens?
25:01Secondly, it's a costly aircraft.
25:02Thirdly, the timelines for its production.
25:05You know, the production still, they have not met the whole requirement of their allies.
25:10So, the timeline, cost, is another factor.
25:13Supply chain issues are there.
25:14There are multiple collaborative efforts, so vendors are involved.
25:18So, these complexities are there.
25:21Suu 57, we walked out of the program earlier.
25:25So, there are issues on that side also.
25:27As I said earlier, we have to negotiate where we get the best deal out of the, in case we have to take a choice.
25:35And a deal also in such a way that we get a lot of technology which we urgently need to support our indigenous endeavors.
25:43Oh, absolutely.
25:45Technology that should include a fighter jet engine that's made in India with full transfer of technology and technical know-how.
25:52Air Marshal Chopra, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show.
25:55F-35, Suu 57, or is there a third option for the fifth generation aircraft?
26:01Yeah.
26:02The options presently are between these two.
26:04F-35 is not yet on offer, but numbers built are very large.
26:08And therefore, that advantage is there, a little costly.
26:11Suu 57, I must say, that only 42 aircraft have been built till date.
26:17Another 30 are on order.
26:19Russia is on war.
26:21If we choose the Russian aircraft, there's the complexity of possible sanctions from America.
26:26So there are many, many complexities on either of the two choices.
26:32And as Air Marshal Khosla said, that we have a Russian basket already of 60% of Indian Air Force.
26:37So we have to take.
26:39But Russians have offered to set up a factory in India.
26:41It will be full make in India.
26:43They will be willing to give the MUMT, the F-70 drone, which is a stealth drone that will be integrated.
26:51They are offering Suu 35S, also along with it, or they'll help us upgrade the Suu 30 MKI to even much higher standards.
27:00So many things are in offer.
27:01But we have to look at the detail with a fine tooth comb and maybe with a magnified glass.
27:09Yes.
27:09And with supply chains that are guaranteed, an Atmanirbhar Bharat make in India is essential.
27:16We've seen in Apsindoor, we did much better because of make in India.
27:20That can never afford to, we can never afford to derail that.
27:25As always, Air Marshal Chopra and Air Marshal Khosla for joining me on this Battle Cry special broadcast.
27:31Many thanks.
27:32A successful AMCA is essential.
27:36That would position India, a made-in-India fighter jet, the latest.
27:41That would position India as an elite nation.
27:44Among that, that club of elite nations capable of producing advanced fighter jets, enabling future exports and technological advancement.
27:54Therefore, focus on Atmanirbhar Bharat in defense, but make sure that timelines are met.
28:02That is all I have for you on this Battle Cry special broadcast.
28:06Many thanks for watching.
28:07Our ultimate aim, as always, should be Rashtra hit Sarvupari, India first.
28:14While you're here on the Battle Cry special broadcast.
28:15Until next time, it will be right to the Battle Cry.
28:28A new不要 against iron men are supposed to be the Battle Cry special.
28:31On the Battle Cry special.
28:37Thanks for listening to Beans.
28:40We'll be here on the Battle Cry special broadcast.
28:41That is our secret program.
Recommended
1:23
|
Up next
18:32