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Transcript
00:00I don't know if I could forgive somebody
00:29the way he's been able to forgive me.
00:39I knew the only way I was going to get past it was to forgive him.
00:44And that is a huge undertaking.
00:59This is the old neighborhood where I grew up.
01:20East San Gabriel Valley suburbs of Los Angeles, California.
01:30And of course, in the late 60s and early 1970s, this was, you know, wonderland, I guess.
01:39There was always something going on.
01:41There was always kids coming over to someone's house, you know, sleepovers.
01:49Very, very Anglo community.
01:52Not that much diversity.
02:04I grew up in Northern California, a very small town, just outside of San Francisco.
02:13It was a very strict household in the sense of religion.
02:16We do this on Fridays, this on Saturdays, this on Sundays.
02:19We went to church every day because, of course, we went to Catholic school.
02:22I had always felt like I was, I don't know, on the outside.
02:32I didn't really fit in.
02:35You know, I wouldn't say I hated girls, but I had absolutely zero interest in them.
02:41The bullying, it didn't, you know, I couldn't tell if it was because they really knew what my sexuality was,
02:48or if it was I was the tiniest kid in the class and the easiest target.
02:52Regarding racial issues, I wouldn't say that it was a blatant sort of thing.
02:57It was very subtle.
02:59What I can tell you is that once my brother was shot by an African American, my perception was if a person is black, they are willing to attack me.
03:12And so there was that fear.
03:16My mother asked the question, why do you think that out of all the kids in the class, why are they picking on you?
03:23I said, well, it's obvious they're picking on me because I'm gay.
03:27And she's like, no, no child of mine will live in this house if they live, if they choose to live in sin.
03:35And then she physically drags me across the floor and throws me out.
03:53My very first hardcore punk rock show.
04:02There's something in the air.
04:06There was anger.
04:10There was fear.
04:13And for me, the violence made me feel big.
04:21And so only I could explain it.
04:22It made me feel elated.
04:26It was like a drug for me.
04:27The adrenaline rush that's involved is like a drug.
04:35I was picked up one night for being out after curfew in San Francisco.
04:39After weeks of jumping in and out of cars and being repeatedly victimized as a 13-year-old, I just wanted to go home.
04:46My mom no longer wants anything to do with me.
04:51And she said, fuck you, you little faggot.
04:54And she took her hand and smacked me so hard I went across the floor.
04:58And that's when I knew that it was completely done.
05:09The people that I gravitated towards were called Nazi punks.
05:16Tuesday nights, we're going to go to the Starwood and we're going to get in a fight with whoever.
05:19And then the next day, we're supposed to go to school.
05:22When we were on the rampage, you stood a very good chance of getting hurt.
05:28I remember arriving in Los Angeles in Hollywood.
05:33I was just like, oh my God, this is going to be great.
05:35But unfortunately, the daily routines became the same as they were in San Francisco.
05:40Hustling and selling my body was no longer this terrible, awful victimization.
05:45It was a means to an end.
05:47But I always had this little, like, I'm going to make it because I'm still going to prove her wrong.
05:52That evening was more violent than usual.
06:09At first glance, we saw the Mohawks and we thought, well, whatever, just punk rockers.
06:15We had gotten out of the club earlier.
06:18And we stopped two or three times simply to get out of the car and beat somebody up.
06:27So we're at a heightened level of aggression.
06:35We were across the street from Okie Dogs.
06:39This hamburger stand was the Okie Dog.
06:42They crossed the street, directly across the street is where I heard them yell.
06:46Look, there they are again. The faggots. Let's go kill the faggots.
06:51As they were chasing me, I was trying to make it out as quickly as I could.
06:54I was unaware that there were several coming from the other direction.
07:00And as I get to the end of the alley and I can see them coming, I just, I froze. I literally froze.
07:07I turned and I saw that the rest of the people that I was with were kicking somebody on the ground.
07:16They started beating, punching me first, then kicking me as hard as they could in order to get me down to the ground.
07:23I saw that he was still moving and I said something to the effect of, what's wrong with you guys?
07:30You know, don't you know how to put a boot in?
07:33I remember looking into that face. I remember looking at that mohawk in those eyes.
07:40I kicked him in the forehead and he was out.
07:45In those last moments of looking up and watching these 14 guys with razor blades glued to the front of their boots,
07:55high-fiving each other and they were congratulating each other.
07:59They believed with everything that was within them that they had accomplished the goal of killing that kid in the alley
08:06who had never spoken to them, had never said anything to them.
08:13The words and what I saw were far more painful throughout my life than the boots and the blades.
08:20And we turned up the music and we drove back to the suburbs.
08:26I will tell you it was a long drive. It seemed like a very long drive and I think all of us were sort of internalizing
08:34and processing what had happened.
08:37You know, I went through most of my life thinking that I had killed this person, or at least not knowing.
09:04Every facet of my life had something to do with the white power movement.
09:17If you want to call it an epiphany or the enlightenment or the time when I realized just how much damage I could be doing.
09:28We were in the grocery store and he said, look daddy there's a big black and he blurted out the n-word.
09:34And for me I started to feel that it wasn't making me feel good inside anymore.
09:40It didn't make me feel like I was in charge or that I had control or power or anything like that.
09:45And I was shamed.
09:47The violence and being a part of that stuff was not working anymore, just like a drug.
09:52You know, when does the alcohol stop making you feel better?
09:55When was the, when does the heroin stop making you feel good?
09:59You know, there does become a time when it doesn't work.
10:06In 1998, Matthew Shepard is beaten, died seven days later.
10:11At first I didn't know why I felt so connected to his story.
10:16And when he died and I sat there to think about it, I realized why.
10:21Is that I lived that night.
10:24This kid didn't.
10:26And his voice was silenced forever.
10:34Guys, I want to welcome you to the museum.
10:36I'm going to help you guys go through security and get you started with your tour guide.
10:40I'm one of the managers, Matthew, but I am not your tour guide.
10:43Your tour guide is going to meet you in a moment.
10:45Ellen, your group will come through the front and we're going to go straight up the ramp.
10:54One of the things that I think is most powerful that the museum has is the power of personal testimony.
10:59People who have lived through something or been a part of something
11:02are able to share that experience firsthand, which adds to the exhibits.
11:07You can make it a better world.
11:09We'll just join them wherever you are.
11:10Perfect. Got it.
11:11When I became manager for the museum, one of the speakers was Tim Zoll.
11:18And I remember looking at the sheets before I had even seen a picture of him.
11:22And it said former white supremacist.
11:24And I thought, well, that's interesting.
11:26And there was a specific school group that Matthew wanted some advice on.
11:33We're talking about the school.
11:36We're talking about the kids for about five minutes.
11:39Matthew asked me, you know, so how did you get out of the movement and stuff like that?
11:46And where did you grow up?
11:48Came into the conversation and we started to talk about our backgrounds.
11:52I was a street kid.
11:53I grew up on the streets of Hollywood or, you know, just outside of West Hollywood.
11:59And he's like, I used to hang out in the streets in Hollywood.
12:03And I told him that I used to hang out at Okie Dogs, for example.
12:08I had a 16-inch mohawk, I believe is what he said to me.
12:12And there was a moment where I just, I just took a deep breath.
12:19Like, there was just a flash back to the alley and just looking back up at that mohawk.
12:24And he said, oh, yeah, I used to hang out at Okie Dogs, too.
12:27And I said, yeah.
12:28I'm like, what do you remember about Okie Dogs?
12:31Why did you guys just hang out there?
12:33And he stiffened up.
12:36I stopped hanging out there, as a matter of fact, because one night it got really, really violent.
12:44And I just didn't feel comfortable with going back.
12:49And I just looked directly at him and I said, you know who you're sitting across from, don't you?
12:56And he said, I knew it before you did.
12:59And I think it's at that time, rather than saying, you know, oh, I'm sorry or whatever.
13:07I didn't know how to handle it.
13:09And I don't think he did either.
13:11And we both went our separate ways.
13:13There was a numbness.
13:15I think every emotion in my body shut off.
13:20I was, you know, I was angry and I was thinking what I was going to do to him.
13:28And that thought of what I was going to do to another person actually scared the crap out of me.
13:33Because it's not who I am.
13:35I'm not saying I don't get frustrated or I get angry, but not to the point of, not to that extent of wanting to cause somebody that type of harm.
13:48I attempted to come up with excuses.
13:49I attempted to say, oh, I wasn't there or I was drunk or, you know, making up excuses.
13:55And then trying to blame the victim, which unfortunately is something that is very common, is to blame the victim.
14:05I think he wanted to be forgiven.
14:08I think the first part of me trying to forgive him, or the first part of me trying to take those steps towards forgiveness was, no, because it's what you're looking for.
14:17After the Museum of Tolerance found out about the situation, they wanted us to try to do a presentation together.
14:32I want to welcome you guys to Hate to Hope. My name is Matthew. This is Tim.
14:36Our presentation evolves because Tim and I evolve and so is the process of forgiveness evolves.
14:42By getting up here and talking about this and letting other people know that it can be done.
14:49I didn't want to do it originally. I did not want to do it at all.
14:55I don't know why I agreed. I don't, you know, I wasn't comfortable being around Tim.
15:00I wasn't exactly thrilled to publicly share a story that I denied at that point for 26 years.
15:09I really could not believe that I was sitting across from one of 14 guys who believed that they had killed me or at least attempted to do that.
15:19It was just so odd. You know, there still wasn't this intention to forgive him. I just thought, maybe there's more to this story that could help me if I learned it.
15:28All I can do to prove to somebody that I am a different person today is by the way that I live my life.
15:41And I watched him get to know me. I watched him learn to trust me.
15:49The evening that this attack took place, it was my boot that knocked Matthew unconscious. Dealing with that, that shame and that guilt is something that does reoccur from time to time.
16:08I had to understand each step that I took. I realized he wasn't going to give it to me. I had to get it on my own and it was going to be through this process.
16:19I could tell people that I didn't care what they thought of me. I don't care what you think of my sexuality, but I didn't mean it because of course I cared and it affected me.
16:27I didn't realize that until the end that one of the gifts of forgiveness was that I would be able to say that. And when I say it, it comes from here is that it's very hard as one.
16:35I started to dwell on this, this question of, have I forgiven myself? Have I forgiven myself? Because I felt guilty.
16:46I did not feel guilty. I did not feel that I had forgiven myself. I don't think truly. Truly. And I had this inner struggle, this, this, just being torn up inside.
17:05I started the whole meditation thing was I was going through some guilt. I wasn't at peace with myself.
17:19And a very good friend of mine suggested I started meditating. And at first I was very apprehensive.
17:27I said, you know, I'm not a Buddhist. I'm not into that kind of stuff. And that's kind of weird. You know, I consider myself a Christian.
17:33So I'm not going to get involved with that kind of stuff. He said, well, just give it a try.
17:39It was very strange because one of the main ways of forgiving myself is by meditating. It's definitely part of my process.
17:50Every time that Matthew tells this story, of course, I have to relive it too.
17:59When I initially apologized, it was in front of people, which was a safe situation.
18:09For whatever reason, we just haven't. This is our therapy.
18:13And I was only 17. And I this and I that. And it became about me. It all became about me, which is selfish.
18:23We don't know. Tim and I have not known in six or seven years whose lives we have changed. It's not, we don't know.
18:30I'd like to commend you because I have a son who's gay. He had a problem coming out with me.
18:34And he says, well, dad, he goes, I was always afraid because I never thought that you would accept it.
18:41And I said, son, I said, you know, I don't know what kind of person does that to their kid.
18:48In that beginning journey of forgiving Tim, you know, I also had to look back and maybe this is why the process took so long.
18:56It's because I also had to think about, would it be possible to forgive my mom?
19:06It was not as hard as I was making it.
19:10I needed to forgive her for what happened.
19:13And I, the only element I didn't have from her was an understanding of why she had done what she did.
19:19And sitting down and thinking that really, truly my mom, I can't judge her because I don't know what fractured life she came from.
19:31She never shared her story.
19:36And I didn't walk in her shoes.
19:41You don't know what the other person has been through.
19:43You don't know what tools that they were given growing up.
19:49And at the end of the day, what does that do?
19:53To have, to hold that resentment and that anger and that hatred towards another person just eats you up.
19:58It's like a cancer inside.
20:02In the, in the past year, I was going through the illness of my partner, brain cancer.
20:10And the first person that was there was Tim.
20:14As difficult as it is to watch someone pass away,
20:17it was made more comforting having Tim there to let me know that it would be okay.
20:26And he sort of is like that family that I couldn't reach out to at that moment.
20:30You have to look at both the perpetrator and the victim as, as human beings and being able to, to change.
20:44Because if I, if I can change, if I can change, anybody can change.
20:49I trust him with my life.
20:52And this is a guy who was willing to take my life.
20:57And I don't think I would have gotten to this point or this, this, you know, relationship I have with him,
21:04had I not been able to truly forgive him.
21:19It could be one to be one to be the one to be the one.
21:22I know this is a guy who was growing up.
21:24I always had a friend in my life.
21:28At last year, he was a guy who was very passionate about the death.
21:30And this is the man who did not.
21:32I just had a friend of mine.
21:34He would have gotten to this point.
21:36He would have gotten to this point and he wanted to see it.
21:38And he told him to be the man who was very comfortable and the man who was great.
21:41And the man, he wanted to be the man who was in the other place.
21:44And then he was really grateful for the one to be able to live the other day for the first time.

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