- 6/28/2025
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00:00:00This is a world where somebody can have over a hundred billion dollars.
00:00:04What is that?
00:00:06These fortunes are almost illegitimate unless in a very smart way given back.
00:00:12One of the biggest names in business, tech, and philanthropy.
00:00:15Exploring and investing in innovative solutions to some of the world's toughest problems.
00:00:20Bill Gates.
00:00:21Starting with Microsoft where I had monomaniacal focus,
00:00:25giving up weekends and vacation wasn't some big sacrifice.
00:00:28I loved it.
00:00:29The idea that everybody would use a computer was somewhat ridiculed.
00:00:33So it was kind of fun saying, no, no, this is really going to be mainstream.
00:00:37If you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy.
00:00:42What was it actually like?
00:00:43He said we were the General Motors and he was Mercedes.
00:00:47Social networking, we're still arguing about what the policy should be.
00:00:51Algorithms reward outrageous things, even if they're not at all factual.
00:00:56I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
00:01:00He would say, hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard.
00:01:02And I'd say, no, no, no, that was fine.
00:01:04I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.
00:01:07It brings tears to my eyes because he was incredible.
00:01:11Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?
00:01:14There's so much conversation today, I feel, about work-life balance.
00:01:30Do you think that that sacrifice and that dedicated time was necessary for the levels of success or would it have been possible in another way?
00:01:38No, I think for Microsoft to be successful, even though we were the first and we had a broader concept of software than the other companies, we needed to be what I would call hardcore.
00:01:50And, you know, in that case, the work is what I want to do.
00:01:57It's not like, oh, God, you know, I've got to earn a little bit more money.
00:02:01It's, you know, this is the thing that throughout my childhood, I was so lucky, you know, because of my parents and some early friends, school I went to.
00:02:10So, I had these exposures to computers that were very rare.
00:02:17And so, I had, you know, all these thousands of hours of programming experience and great feedback on, okay, how do you do it better from the very best adults.
00:02:26I got to see what was coming.
00:02:28And the idea of being part of making that real, you know, I woke up and said, okay, I'd love to get to work.
00:02:36My younger self could stay in, you know, days at a time.
00:02:39I don't do that now.
00:02:41But then it was just in no way a hardship, you know, because I, you know, felt we were part of something that would be very empowering.
00:02:52And, you know, competitively, I wanted us to be the ones to make it happen.
00:02:57One of your favorite quotes that I've always loved is you've said, we overestimate what we can do in one year, and we underestimate what we can do in 10 years.
00:03:06At the beginning, did you overall underestimate yourself?
00:03:09Well, people, when they would hear us say a computer on every desk and in every home running Microsoft software, they were like, you kids are really out of it.
00:03:20I mean, every desk, every home, you know, what would people do with these things?
00:03:25But because the chips were improving exponentially, doubling every couple of years, it allowed us to think of the computing part as essentially being free.
00:03:37And so the only thing that would hold you back is, you know, okay, can you help people with photographs?
00:03:43Can you help them with documents?
00:03:46Can you help them stay in touch with people far away or find information?
00:03:50And we knew over time that as these things got better, it would be part of the mainstream.
00:03:59And so as people sort of came around to that, they were like, wow, whether it's at work or at home, this is just part of how people do things.
00:04:09And we wanted, you know, to get it out to everyone, you know, students everywhere, you know, even in the countries that are low income.
00:04:18You mentioned your parents earlier, and when I was reading this book, I felt like they are such a big part of this book and the storytelling and the incredible experiences and memories.
00:04:30And one of the things you mentioned is you say that they felt that they accepted that you were different from your peers.
00:04:36And I was wondering in what way, how did you know that they'd seen that and accepted that?
00:04:40Well, it definitely confounded them that sometimes I was pushing back in a pretty tough way, you know, as though, you know, we were in some competition.
00:04:51They would hear from teachers, and they were very good about staying in touch with my teachers.
00:04:57You know, some teachers would say, this kid should be skipped ahead one or two grades.
00:05:01Some teachers would say, this kid should be held back.
00:05:04You know, so that kind of is what, you know, make up your mind.
00:05:08You know, I had one experience where I worked on a report about the state of Delaware, and I ended up doing this 200-page report with the Great Wood cover.
00:05:17Well, the other kids turned in, you know, five or 10-page reports.
00:05:21And it was very embarrassing that I thought, wow, did I, you know, kind of overdo this thing?
00:05:26And yet, you know, that ability to concentrate, you know, would hold me in good stead in terms of reading long books
00:05:34and applying that concentration and curiosity first to cards, then to math, and then finally to software,
00:05:42and how would software change the world.
00:05:46But, you know, they never were quite sure what to do.
00:05:50And, you know, sending me to a therapist actually ended up being brilliant.
00:05:54And sending me to a very nice private school where the classes were a bit smaller and, you know, I could get,
00:06:02I always got an unfair share of attention from the teachers.
00:06:06You know, we'd have like 15 people in the class, but, you know, almost 20% of the teacher's time
00:06:11in terms of telling me what to read or, you know, marking my writing up.
00:06:16You know, I got an unfair share, partly because my curiosity or energy level, you know,
00:06:22did mark me out in both positive and negative ways.
00:06:26Yeah.
00:06:27What influence do you think Dr. Cressy actually had on you?
00:06:30Because therapy at that time and in your early age, looking back on it now,
00:06:34what do you feel it gave you?
00:06:36What skills did it give you?
00:06:37Well, it was a very rare thing.
00:06:39In fact, the other people coming to him were these couples that were having arguments.
00:06:43And so, in a, I hope, privacy-appropriate way, he would kind of give me a sense of that.
00:06:48He gave me a few IQ tests.
00:06:50He, you know, had me read about Freud and all these things.
00:06:54But slowly but surely, he was saying to me that fighting your parents really has no purpose.
00:07:02I mean, they really do love you.
00:07:04They're on your side.
00:07:06You should apply your energy towards other things.
00:07:10And, you know, eventually, he made me feel kind of foolish, like, yeah, why was I taking these,
00:07:17what I thought were kind of arbitrary rules or where my mom would say, you should respect me.
00:07:21And I'd say, well, you know, I don't know.
00:07:24And a little bit, as I figured out, I could understand things like playing cards as well or better than my grandmother.
00:07:31Or, you know, I could read books that had complicated things.
00:07:35I was a bit showing off to saying, because my cognition is good, why should you be able to set arbitrary rules?
00:07:41But anyway, I'm embarrassed when I think about it now.
00:07:44But Dr. Cressy was so encouraging to me in general and then got across.
00:07:52He probably understood at the first meeting that I had to be convinced to make this change.
00:08:00But he did it in a super nice way.
00:08:03And so the idea that, no, my parents, yes, they're imperfect, but, wow, they're on my side.
00:08:11That changed my behavior.
00:08:13Yeah.
00:08:14And did he also had these beautiful ways of you said he never belittled you.
00:08:18And I believe he used to mention to you, you're going to win or he wanted you to win.
00:08:23And I feel like that's what did those things do?
00:08:27Because it's almost like you're saying he made you have this almost this realization that you were wrong.
00:08:32But it seemed like he did it in a very graceful, elegant way.
00:08:35Like, how did how did he do that?
00:08:37Absolutely.
00:08:38They, you know, I thought, oh, I need to be so clever to win.
00:08:42And I'm going to apply all this energy to win.
00:08:45And so the idea when he says, no, you're going to win, it's like, oh, I see.
00:08:49It's not because I'm clever.
00:08:50It's because it's, you know, they care for me and they're trying, you know, to help me.
00:08:57And, you know, their main concern is, am I ready, you know, to go out in the world?
00:09:02And if I have capabilities, will I develop those and use those?
00:09:08And, you know, my mom always had a way of kind of pushing me to do more.
00:09:13I said to her once, you know, you told me to go to the heart of school.
00:09:17And she said, no, I never actually said that.
00:09:21And I said to her, well, wait a minute, when other parents would come over, you'd say how bad they must feel that their kid didn't go to college or something like that.
00:09:29So, okay, it was indirect, but, you know, it was kind of there.
00:09:33So, you know, my mom certainly encouraged me, you know, and sometimes I felt overwhelmed by that.
00:09:41But my eventual reaction to just, okay, try to outdo any levels, she said, and ended up working out well.
00:09:49Yeah, what was something that you didn't value about your mom at that time that now looking back, you say, no, I do value that?
00:09:56Well, things like table manners.
00:09:59I'm like, well, you know, okay, I have to take the ketchup and put it in a bowl and then do this.
00:10:05And I'm not supposed to put my elbows on the table.
00:10:07And, you know, she was just, you know, trying to make sure I was civilized a little bit, you know, what I would wear.
00:10:16And they definitely got me engaged with adults.
00:10:20You know, my social skills were slow to develop with people other than a few boys like myself.
00:10:26But with adults, because they were having them over and I, you know, got so I could ask those adults to talk about what they were doing.
00:10:34And that was really valuable to me because I ended up through that and through one of my early friends having more of an outlook of, okay, where am I headed at quite a young age, which was super helpful.
00:10:49Yeah, it's so funny.
00:10:50As I was reading the book, I was reminded of, so when I graduated from college, I didn't go to my graduation ceremony because I left to become a monk.
00:10:59And my parents were, they were very kind and accepting of my decision, but my mother still has this feeling that she doesn't have a picture of me graduating, wearing the hat and, you know, holding my certificate.
00:11:14And I remember I was having the same feeling that you were where my mom would always say to me, oh, when I go to my friends' houses, they're telling me about all the jobs that their kids are doing and the apartment they just moved into.
00:11:25And you're just there being a monk, like, you know, she'd say that to me.
00:11:28And it was always that kind of feeling, like that sense of pressure to live up to something she wanted me to do, even though there was love and there was acceptance.
00:11:37And I was wondering for you, like, you said it yourself, she was such a powerhouse.
00:11:42She had such high expectations.
00:11:44When did you feel that you reached that?
00:11:46Or do you feel you've reached that?
00:11:48Well, unfortunately, my mom passed away in her early 60s.
00:11:52She got breast cancer, and so I had gotten married six months before she passed this away.
00:12:01So she never got to see that I tried to follow her example as a parent.
00:12:07She never got to see the foundation get going.
00:12:10My dad actually ran the foundation and got it off to a fantastic start.
00:12:15So he was involved.
00:12:17But her sort of dictate about, okay, if you are successful, you have to give back.
00:12:21Like, it's a shame that she didn't get to kind of participate and see that I'm following what she said, despite all the times I pushed back on her.
00:12:35Yeah.
00:12:35Do you still feel that today, that it's almost like her voice is in your head and she's present in that way?
00:12:41Oh, absolutely.
00:12:41The sense I have of, okay, I've got to do this and do that well, that really came from her.
00:12:49My dad more set the example of being calm and thoughtful, also great, great values.
00:12:56But it wasn't through the interaction.
00:13:01He would leave pretty early.
00:13:02And if my mom had to escalate to call him in, you knew you better give in because that was kind of the ultimate thing.
00:13:12But yeah, so each in their own way, he, through example, her through high expectations, deserve a lot of credit.
00:13:20And, you know, part of this book is to really honor them and two of the young friends I had who set me on a great path.
00:13:30Well, it's pretty insane.
00:13:32This is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion.
00:13:37I mean, that, you know, what is that?
00:13:41You know, you don't want to just give that to children and create some dynasty.
00:13:45That's not even a favorite to them.
00:13:47Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically.
00:13:57I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg.
00:14:03Elon stands by himself.
00:14:06Maybe that drives everybody else together.
00:14:08I don't know.
00:14:09I was wondering, what was your biggest realization about your father from writing this book?
00:14:13It's weird.
00:14:14I've always underestimated how incredible my father was.
00:14:19His values, even the exchange with my mom, you know, before they get married.
00:14:24One of his dreams was to be a federal judge, and he eventually, that was offered to him.
00:14:32And because his law firm would have had great difficulties, he said, no, that would hurt my colleagues, so I'm not going to do that.
00:14:41And I had written him a note saying, gosh, I hope it's not because you had to pay all that tuition that you're not getting to do this.
00:14:49And I'd forgotten he'd written me back such a nice note.
00:14:52So, you know, in digging through, I'm amazed we ended up keeping those things.
00:14:56It was so touching to me.
00:14:59Now, I, you know, I'll spend my whole life trying to live up to the example he set.
00:15:03What was it like finding that reply, forgetting that he had replied?
00:15:09Well, certainly it brings tears to my eyes because, you know, he was incredible.
00:15:16And towards the end of his life, we did get a little more direct, you know, where he would say, hey, I'm sorry I worked so hard.
00:15:23And I'd say, no, no, that was fine to be doing that.
00:15:28You know, and so instead of things being sort of through my mom, when she was gone, he had to build up that communication.
00:15:35In a way, it was far more intimate.
00:15:37You know, I feel lucky that he lived as long as he did.
00:15:41How did, how does that, as that relationship evolves, like, it felt like when I was reading Source Code,
00:15:47I felt like your father was there to always save you in these moments.
00:15:49Like, he'd pick up the phone, he'd be involved in, you know, talking to you and your friends.
00:15:54Like, he was there in these very pivotal moments that felt like almost professional support from him, of course,
00:15:59based on his intelligence and background as well.
00:16:02But it sounds like that evolved to a much more emotive, intimate space.
00:16:07Like, what does that look like for a father and a son across all those years?
00:16:11You know, and when I was going off to college, you know, I'd call my parents every couple of weeks.
00:16:17But, you know, you couldn't, like, text and send photos.
00:16:20And so, but I always knew, you know, that they were supportive.
00:16:25And so, I actually got into a little bit of trouble where I'd taken my colleagues into the computer center
00:16:31and done some of the early Microsoft basic work.
00:16:35And the college, as they filled position to supervise that computer center, were like,
00:16:41wow, did you break the rules?
00:16:43And, you know, my dad was always so kind of wise, you know, when I ever was like, oh, my God, I may have screwed up here.
00:16:53I better get on top of this.
00:16:55You know, that's a time where I call him in and his advice is very helpful.
00:17:00You know, then later we have a customer who's not paying us.
00:17:04And our very first customer, another case where my dad encouraged me to stay the course.
00:17:10So, it wasn't in those days that I talked to him a lot, but that when I was in trouble, he was the one person, you know,
00:17:20who was so sophisticated and, you know, on my side that his advice really did help me at a lot of key turning points.
00:17:33And, you know, then later when we have a relationship where we actually talk intimately, I was able to thank him for that.
00:17:42Do you remember one of the final conversations you had with him?
00:17:45Well, he got Alzheimer's and he, because he was such a nice person, he was still like super nice, you know,
00:17:52always worried did his caregivers get enough meals or, you know, eventually the fact he grew up in the depression
00:17:59showed because he'd be worried about, you know, are we buying too expensive a meal, you know,
00:18:05even though he had as much money as he could ever need, you know.
00:18:10So, you know, we got back to his basic character, which was just very friendly and thoughtful.
00:18:18So, yes, I feel like in his case, we did have those conversations that I never got to have with my mom.
00:18:27There's the one phone call you described, the three words he used of,
00:18:32I hear you, when he was talking to the school and that left such a strong imprint.
00:18:37Could you tell us why that was such a big moment for you at that time?
00:18:41I was in this contract discussion with this group, I thought, you know, owed me some computer time.
00:18:49So, that's the first time that my dad is pitching in to help.
00:18:55And, you know, I thought, what's he going to do?
00:18:58Is he going to, you know, threaten them or be tough on them?
00:19:02And, no, not at all.
00:19:05The fact that they sort of gave their side of the argument and then, you know, he just simply said, I hear you,
00:19:11which was this way of saying, you know, I don't agree with that.
00:19:16You know, let's try and reach a compromise here.
00:19:19You have your point of view.
00:19:21So, just the way he said, I hear you, you know, kept things really calm,
00:19:27didn't acknowledge or attack their position so we could get on to the, hey, you know,
00:19:35if you meet these guys halfway, isn't that okay for both of you here,
00:19:41which is what eventually came out of it.
00:19:45And so, the idea of being subtle and helping to find that common ground,
00:19:50I was young enough to, that just kind of blew my mind.
00:19:54And, yeah, wow, you can kind of hold your ground, but without being provocative.
00:20:00What would you say is the one way your mother influenced your parenting style
00:20:04and then your father influenced your parenting style?
00:20:07Well, this idea that is actually kind of a school called love and logic,
00:20:12where you make expectations to the child very, very clear,
00:20:17and you make consequences very, very clear.
00:20:20And in an unemotional way, you say, no, you're going to have to go to your room
00:20:23because we agreed if you did this, that's what happens.
00:20:27My dad practiced that approach.
00:20:31My mom probably wanted to, but then if she was frustrated,
00:20:34you know, she'd be, oh, I'm so disappointed,
00:20:36and kind of bring emotion into it.
00:20:39So, the intensity of how much my mom cared,
00:20:43I, you know, I think that was great.
00:20:46And I think kind of that calm, predictable, hey, the world works in a clear way,
00:20:53and, you know, I'm on top of the world, and here's what I need from you.
00:20:57You know, that very much came from my dad.
00:21:00So, I tried to be a little more around.
00:21:03You know, my wife, Melinda, deserves all the credit, you know,
00:21:08that our kids have come out so well because she really was around.
00:21:10But I tried to be, that's the one thing I did a bit differently than my dad
00:21:16was more intense vacation time,
00:21:20a little bit more of a direct communication, not through their mother.
00:21:25How did you reconcile that towards the end about your father's style,
00:21:28and how did you make space for that and accept that?
00:21:31In that generation, you know, my dad's career was a very big thing.
00:21:35In fact, having all sorts of adults around for events, you know,
00:21:39was connected to his career, and, you know, he did very well.
00:21:43He was a top lawyer in Seattle.
00:21:46So, I never resented the idea that my dad was very busy.
00:21:53You know, you had kids early, you know, the man's career is important.
00:21:56Later, my mom also not only is doing volunteer activities,
00:22:00but as people wanted women on boards because she had the right background,
00:22:06she got a huge number of those opportunities,
00:22:08and she got a little busy herself.
00:22:13You know, I don't think the amount of time is the only key factor there.
00:22:20Yeah, I'd have to agree.
00:22:21When I was reading it, too, I was thinking that...
00:22:24And this is what I found so interesting, Bill,
00:22:26when I was reading Source Code that even though you have lived such an otherworldly life
00:22:31in so many ways, there were so many relatable moments from a parenting standpoint.
00:22:37And when I was reading it, I was thinking about my father, too,
00:22:39who wasn't around a lot when I was younger.
00:22:42He was working.
00:22:42Both my parents had to work.
00:22:44And to the point you just made right now,
00:22:46like, my father wasn't there when I was playing rugby,
00:22:48or he wasn't there when I was swimming for my, you know, local club,
00:22:53or he wasn't there on the sidelines cheering.
00:22:56And for me, that really allowed me to become the man I wanted to be,
00:23:02and it allowed me to have more freedom, almost,
00:23:04to not feel like there was this heavy expectation.
00:23:07And I've always seen that as a positive thing,
00:23:09because it allowed me to have a broader definition of what it meant to be a man,
00:23:14what it meant to be a son,
00:23:15what it meant to go off and discover something that I was passionate about.
00:23:19And so, even seeing you kind of having your mother be the one who was almost,
00:23:23you know, pushing the expectation and what the family should be,
00:23:27but then having a bit of freedom, it was interesting to see how that impacted you,
00:23:31to be able to push back, to be able to, you know, even at one point, like you said in that letter,
00:23:36like, parent him almost in his decision and play that role.
00:23:40So, it was refreshing for me to read a book about you where I was actually seeing parts of myself
00:23:47in certain relationships in a very relatable way.
00:23:49Did you ever anticipate that when you were writing it?
00:23:52I was surprised, you know, so when I'm describing going on those hikes,
00:23:57I was thinking, boy, would I have let my son go off?
00:24:01And we really are holding back children a bit more, you know, out of a sense of, okay, ultimate safety, I guess.
00:24:13But, you know, in that generation, I was allowed to take trips and hikes, and I think it benefited me.
00:24:21And so, writing the book, I was like, wow.
00:24:23And you've talked to people like Jonathan Haidt about this.
00:24:26Are we a bit overprotecting, you know, kids so that they don't get to make, you know, mistakes
00:24:34or try themselves out or mature the way that is best for them?
00:24:40Do you think school's failing children?
00:24:42If you have 30 people in a class, it's pretty tough.
00:24:45You're going to have some kids who are behind and some who are ahead.
00:24:48You know, even the best teacher has got a big challenge with that.
00:24:52But education, I wouldn't say, is much better or worse today than a few decades ago.
00:24:57We've always thought, okay, when we bring the computer in, you know, will that helpful?
00:25:02And certainly, if you want to find information, it's been great.
00:25:05We're still working on that.
00:25:07Now, with the AI, maybe a personal tutor will be encouraging and work on your level.
00:25:13It's early days, but I've been out seeing some of that in classrooms.
00:25:16People like Saul Kahn with Kahn Amigo that our foundation is helping to support.
00:25:23But education, the computer has not made it so, oh, wow, kids learn a lot more today than they did a long time ago.
00:25:34And I still believe we can change that.
00:25:37But it means if you're in one of those large classes, you can feel lost.
00:25:41And, you know, we're missing, you know, great human potential.
00:25:45You tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself.
00:25:49The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids.
00:25:55And I was like, if I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.
00:26:00You know, he's got a real problem.
00:26:02And I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.
00:26:06So that scared me.
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00:27:27That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com forward slash Jay's top three.
00:27:33What are we getting wrong?
00:27:34Because it sounds like you felt maybe the computer would give people that impetus and the ability to download more and learn more.
00:27:40Where have we gone wrong?
00:27:42Well, the key is motivation.
00:27:43If you have a kid who's super motivated, then yes, going to the Khan website and doing hours of math problems, that's great.
00:27:53But in a way, that takes the kid who's in that top 20% and makes him even more intimidating to the other ones.
00:28:03And, you know, people can come in and if a kid in eighth grade says, is math a subject you have any confidence in, if they answer no to that, they're five times more likely to drop out.
00:28:17And so we do lose kids and it's more out of motivation.
00:28:23And so most of the stuff we've done on the computer is about, okay, if you are motivated, we'll help you out and not so much about how you make it feel relevant to them and give them a sense of success.
00:28:35And maybe this time around with these AI personal tutors, we'll get that right.
00:28:41But kids check out, no, I'm not one of those kids who's good at math, even though for a lot of professions and, you know, for college courses, we require algebra two tests to be passed in order to go on and, you know, even be a nurse or a policeman.
00:29:01So we have work to do, but more on the motivational side.
00:29:06Yeah, I really appreciate you saying that, actually, because I do think that we think about changing education as so theoretical and functional, but it is the drive, it is the motivation.
00:29:16And I was thinking about how we put limits on ourselves.
00:29:19When I finished sixth grade, I remember before I went to high school, my favorite subject was math in sixth grade and my least favorite subject was art.
00:29:28And then when I finished high school, my most favorite subject was art and my least favorite subject was math.
00:29:34And it was just fascinating to me how that completely flipped over a seven-year period.
00:29:40And as I've grown up in my own life, I found that art and design, philosophy, economics are far more where I naturally gravitate toward.
00:29:48But so much of that up until sixth grade was the limits or the things that were expected of me as opposed to what I was motivated and driven towards.
00:29:56And I was thinking about something you said in the book.
00:29:58You said that if you were growing up today, you would have been diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum.
00:30:04And I was wondering, how would that have affected you?
00:30:07How do you think that would have affected you?
00:30:08Yeah, I'm fascinated by that.
00:30:10Because for some people, being given a label is a pejorative to them and, you know, almost feels shameful.
00:30:18Although we know, you know, being on the spectrum gives you, you know, almost some superpowers and concentration that if you find the right place, it can be helpful.
00:30:29Other people, they're glad when they get that because then they say, oh, that's why, you know, my social skills were slowed to develop.
00:30:39And, you know, here's some strategies that people like me have used.
00:30:44I'm not alone in this.
00:30:46You know, I fit in into this.
00:30:48And it's actually a reasonably common thing.
00:30:52There isn't like some medicine.
00:30:54ADHD, you know, which I probably also would have been diagnosed with, they do have the vocal and Adderall, a variety of things they give kids for that.
00:31:04And I still wonder about that.
00:31:06I haven't chosen as an adult to get a diagnosis or use those medicines.
00:31:11I think eventually you learn to, you know, adapt.
00:31:15I still kind of rock a little bit when I'm thinking hard and without even knowing it.
00:31:21And it does bother people sometimes.
00:31:24And that's definitely kind of what they call self-stimulation behavior that, you know, makes it pretty likely I fit into that diagnosis.
00:31:37Do you think it would have changed your trajectory or success?
00:31:39Have you thought about that?
00:31:40I worry that I might have thought of it as pejorative.
00:31:44It's really how you communicate it.
00:31:47I mean, if you say, hey, here's a kid who doesn't socialize at all.
00:31:52And you're, you know, sort of destined to, you know, never be good at those things.
00:32:00You know, obviously to create a company, hire people, motivate people, go out and, you know, sell the dream of computing.
00:32:09I've had to, even though I'm not a natural, you know, develop a lot of social behaviors.
00:32:15And it might have discouraged me unless it was done in a very tasteful way.
00:32:20You know, I think of that Dr. Cressy experience where he didn't make me feel terrible while enlightening me that I was wasting my time as well as my parents' time.
00:32:35Yeah. Did you continue therapy after that or ever go to therapy again?
00:32:40Yes. Most periods of my life, I found it useful to have a therapist where I'm talking to about, you know, what's confusing or what's troubling.
00:32:51I think, you know, I'm very lucky to have that.
00:32:54I think particularly if you have a life where some extreme things happen that, you know, luck is a huge part of that to, you know, keep your, you know, keep you on the ground.
00:33:08A good therapist can play an invaluable role there.
00:33:12So, yeah, I've benefited to this day from those kind of conversations.
00:33:17Yeah. Well, I was thinking about in the book, obviously, you beautifully introduced us to Kent.
00:33:22And obviously, the loss of Kent seems to be a place in your memory that's naturally so difficult and fuzzy.
00:33:30And you talk about in the book how you're not quite sure what your parents would have said and how it all felt.
00:33:35And I was just wondering if there were any, did you have support at that time through therapy and other ways to deal with that grief?
00:33:41No. And I've been looking recently at people like Anderson Cooper talking about, okay, how do you deal with grief?
00:33:49And, you know, a lot of what they come up with is that if you can keep talking about the person and, you know, what you got from them, you're kind of honoring them.
00:33:59You know, Kent's parents obviously were the most affected by this because, you know, they would never have this incredible son and, you know, who would have no doubt gone off and done incredible things.
00:34:15And I remember spending time with them for like a year afterwards and then feeling a bit guilty that as I got busy, I didn't do that as much.
00:34:26You know, in the book, I actually start out where I've seen Kent's father.
00:34:31I run into him right as I'm starting work on the book and, you know, we can talk about what a great influence he had on me.
00:34:39And, you know, so I did, I did think that was helpful, but boy, it took me a long time because death, it was just such a shocking thing.
00:34:47I have this idyllic childhood other than Kent's death, nothing at all traumatic, and we're talking all the time.
00:34:59You know, a little bit, I reached out to Paul to kind of feel Paul Allen, who goes on to found Microsoft with me, to step in and, you know, be that super close friend.
00:35:11But back then, the idea of how you dealt with trauma was mostly, hey, buck up, you know, get on with things, which after a few months, I did.
00:35:21Yeah, and also at that time, you're talking about how he actually invited you on the trip he went to.
00:35:26And, like, you're talking just before he goes off, and then all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, we used to talk every day or, you know, and that, it can feel so disassociated from yourself in that moment, it feels like.
00:35:39How did you revisit that? Did you kind of turn towards working through the grief as you wrote the book?
00:35:46Did it feel like you were revisiting it?
00:35:48Oh, definitely. You know, at that high school, when I built a hall in his name, and, you know, gone out there and talked a little bit about the role that Kent played in my evolution.
00:36:01You know, so, some efforts to honor him.
00:36:08You know, sadly, you know, Paul Allen, also the other key friend in this book, died, I think, about six years ago from cancer.
00:36:18And, you know, he also was very key at getting me on the right path.
00:36:25And there wouldn't be, you know, without those two friends, you know, there really wouldn't, probably wouldn't be anything like Microsoft.
00:36:32Yeah, you talk about how Paul was setting you little challenges and would ask you to, you know, try this or do that.
00:36:38And then you'd go ahead.
00:36:39And I was thinking how amazing to have a friend that can motivate and inspire you in that way.
00:36:43And then I was thinking about what you just said when I was reading the book that it felt like you told so many stories of so many people in your life that are no longer here now.
00:36:52And so, grief wasn't just about Kent or Paul.
00:36:55It was, you know, just so many individuals that you've had life with that you're having to process that with.
00:37:03What has been helpful for you genuinely deeply inside that has led to some sort of helpful direction with that grief of writing a book about all these wonderful people that you've lost?
00:37:15Well, most of my life has been about looking forward.
00:37:18Yeah.
00:37:18And, okay, let's get this innovation.
00:37:21Let's do it first.
00:37:22And, you know, whether it's software, saving children's lives, which is the big foundation thing.
00:37:29And it is a little bit unnatural for me to look back because you have to say, okay, how do I describe my relationship with my mom in an open, honest way and yet honor her?
00:37:43You know, how do I talk about Kent?
00:37:45I don't know if he'd lived what would have happened, but, you know, probably, you know, something that he would have very much been a part of it.
00:37:54And so it's awkward to look back because you have to deal with these things and talk about, you know, you know, should I have spent more time with his parents afterwards, you know, because eventually I stopped doing that.
00:38:07But, you know, this year I turned 70.
00:38:10I mentally don't feel like I think of a 70-year-old, but, you know, it means, you know, I'm in the final third, no doubt, of, you know, what I've been very lucky to live.
00:38:24And so, you know, I really did force myself to say, no, there's some lessons out of this, you know, telling people how lucky I was and maybe a few lessons for them as parents or how they navigate success.
00:38:40And so once we got going on it, I've enjoyed it quite a bit.
00:38:45I have to say, when I'm reviewing it and editing it, I'm very slow because I'm, you know, reliving these things.
00:38:51So it always takes me about three times longer to take some pages and edit than I predict.
00:38:58Or if it was, you know, something like about climate or pandemics, you know, I'm pretty fast.
00:39:03There's no deep emotion that I have to relive as I'm editing something scientific.
00:39:13Yeah. What was your favorite part to relive and what was the hardest part to relive?
00:39:17Well, everything about the fascination we had and you're like, wow, we see this thing.
00:39:24These computers are going to be amazing, but no one else is saying that, so we must be wrong.
00:39:32That's crazy.
00:39:33And, you know, that contradiction.
00:39:35So, you know, Paul, actually, I helped him get a job out in Boston so he could be out there and bugging me that, okay, should we go build a company?
00:39:46And then finally, when this kit computer, which is so limited, but it's the beginning of the revolution, when that comes out, then, you know, Paul's argument, we should go and do something, he wins because we don't want to be left behind.
00:40:02We want to be there from the very beginning.
00:40:05And then we meet a few people, although it was still a very small movement.
00:40:09We meet other people like Steve Wozniak, Steve Jobs, who also, you know, have been infected with this idea of, okay, we're on to something that is going to be huge.
00:40:21That part, I mean, the research that you did to find in this book, I was, every time I was reading, I was just like, how do you have so much detail?
00:40:28I was really blown away by the level of detail, both in the storytelling, every moment, but then even there's that note that you have that says, Steve Jobs called, was rude.
00:40:40And I was just like, you know, even just having that back then, I was laughing as I read it.
00:40:45And I was wondering, like, I feel like, from the outside, and naturally, and you talk about this later on in the book, how we see people as this, like, slither of who they are,
00:40:55and people have a public profile, and that becomes their brand.
00:40:59And if you look at it from the outside, you see Steve Jobs and yourself having this competition, envy, jealousy, kind of like arch rival, nemesis kind of portrayal.
00:41:09What was it actually like?
00:41:10Because in the book, it comes across much more inviting than that, as opposed to this kind of harsh rivalry.
00:41:18Well, I had a fantastic relationship with Steve.
00:41:20You know, early on, I got to do the basic, which they called Applesoft, that went with every Apple II computer.
00:41:30So I worked with both Jobs and Wozniak to get that done.
00:41:34Then later, as Steve has a kind of small group inside Apple doing the Macintosh,
00:41:41he invited Microsoft to write application software, a spreadsheet word processor for it.
00:41:47And so we actually had as many people as they did, and we worked very closely on that project.
00:41:53And he and I loved the fact that, you know, that ended up being a key Apple product.
00:42:00Then he leaves Apple.
00:42:02I talked to him about Next, but I never thought that computer would do that well, so he was disappointed.
00:42:08But then when he goes back, and it's unbelievable what a great job he did, because Apple went from being on the way to dine to being the world's most valuable company.
00:42:22And Steve had really matured, and it was something, and we helped write software for that.
00:42:29Then later, when Steve is sick, we had about five different conversations where we got to talk about kids and, you know, had computers done well and, you know, where he was pretty thoughtful.
00:42:43It's amazing to me that Steve, you know, his skill set and mine, other than, okay, you know, madman, leader, you know, drawing people in.
00:42:54But he, his taste in design and user interface, and even his intuition about people, he was just genius in a way you can't explain.
00:43:04He didn't look at code and write code, whereas, you know, my thing is, hey, I'm an engineer, you know, here's the code, let's make it faster and smaller.
00:43:15So, actually, that allowed us to get along because, you know, what he was super good at, I was not good at.
00:43:21I envied those just incredible talents that he had.
00:43:25In some ways, he's more singular.
00:43:27Or, you know, if you say to me, are there other people like you who are great at writing code and conceptualizing, yeah, I can name a number of people, including many who worked with me.
00:43:37But I don't know somebody who's, who I say, oh, yeah, you know, he, he's just like Steve Jobs.
00:43:43Wow.
00:43:44Well, that's very humble of you as well.
00:43:45I mean, that's, it's beautiful to hear.
00:43:47What were some of those final conversations like that you had with him that were potentially, it always felt like he was so philosophical and maybe more so in those moments?
00:43:57Yeah, we did one public appearance, you know, where we were being thoughtful about the friendship.
00:44:02Walt Mossberg had us, had us on stage together, which was definitely a fun thing and surprised people because Steve was very harsh.
00:44:11You know, he was a, you know, he said we were the General Motors and he was like the Mercedes.
00:44:18But, you know, all in, it was all very fair.
00:44:23Well, we've, you know, we reflected that computers really hadn't improved education and where both he and I had given speeches saying, of course, this will make education, you know, five times better.
00:44:35And we were like, wow, we got that one wrong.
00:44:38Maybe, you know, maybe next round we'll deliver on that promise.
00:44:43And, you know, how unusual it was, even a little bit lonely that, you know, when you were so successful and then you're having doubts about, okay, are we making mistakes here?
00:44:56You know, both of us had had kids by then.
00:44:59He was actually, you know, of course, he not only did Apple, he did the Pixar stuff.
00:45:04And because that was a realm I'm not in, I, you know, could sincerely tell him what a brilliant job he did.
00:45:12Now, partly picking people, but that's, you know, kind of amazing, you know, now part of Disney.
00:45:22And, you know, and both a sense of thankfulness, although, you know, he was very sick and just hoping some new drug would come along and tragically it didn't.
00:45:30Yeah. Was there a memorable piece of advice or conversation where you said something to him or he said something to you that has stayed with you?
00:45:37Well, the fact that, you know, why were we both so competitive and pushing ahead?
00:45:42I think both of us, you know, in his case, he's an orphan.
00:45:45So he has a more complicated childhood that maybe can explain his zeal.
00:45:51I don't have anything like that, you know, even though Kent died.
00:45:56That's not why, you know, well before that, I was somehow always, you know, pushing as hard as I could be.
00:46:05And, you know, I think both of us, you know, being thankful for what we'd been able to work on.
00:46:11I mean, you know, we got more of a front row seat and helped build this thing.
00:46:17Steve never got around to doing philanthropy.
00:46:20Now his widow, Lorene, is doing great philanthropy, so, you know, that's, I'm sure he'd be proud of that.
00:46:29But he didn't get to that stage and I was just getting into that stage.
00:46:32So I shared with him a little bit about, wow, a lot of children die and we don't do much to stop that.
00:46:39And that kind of intrigued him, but then he never got to pursue it.
00:46:43Yeah, you're reminding me of something I read in Bob Iger's book where he was talking about how there was a time when Spielberg, George Lucas, they'd all sit together and then they'd watch each other's movies and give them feedback.
00:46:55And they all felt very confident doing that because they knew their strengths and their uniqueness were so diverse.
00:47:03And so they didn't feel threatened that, oh, well, Stephen's going to steal my idea or, you know, George Lucas is going to steal my idea because they felt so confident.
00:47:09And it sounds like even for yourself as competitors to talk, to have a relationship, does that still happen today?
00:47:16Do competitors talk? Do they pick up the phone to each other?
00:47:18Or was that very rare because it feels like, it feels definitely now so less.
00:47:25I have a good friendship both with Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg.
00:47:31Elon stands by himself.
00:47:34Maybe that drives everybody else together.
00:47:36I don't know.
00:47:37And, you know, over time, I think Elon, as he gets older, maybe he'll mellow out a little bit and, you know, probably be an incredible philanthropist based on everything else that he's done.
00:47:49But, yes, there is some good conversation.
00:47:53You know, Larry Ellison is now in a phase where he's doing some excellent philanthropy.
00:47:57You know, we're all a bit more reflectable.
00:48:00I mean, hopefully by the time you get to 70, you've been hyper-successful.
00:48:04You can, you know, relax and let your guard down a little bit and, you know, laugh about the things you got wrong.
00:48:11Yeah.
00:48:12What were some of the advice that you've given to Mark or especially earlier on his journey or even more recently?
00:48:17Yeah, well, you know, Microsoft, the one big challenge we had is we were so successful by the late 90s that we got into anti-trust difficulties.
00:48:29And in retrospect, we could have handled that better.
00:48:33And so I've been very open with Mark.
00:48:36You know, I used to brag that I didn't have an office in D.C.
00:48:39And I didn't, you know, what a great country that I didn't have to talk to politicians.
00:48:43Well, that was a mistake.
00:48:46You know, now, you know, you've got all of them going to the inauguration and, you know, so they're not making that mistake.
00:48:56Maybe they, have they corrected too much in another direction?
00:48:58Well, you know, history will judge.
00:49:02So, yeah, I'm, you know, it's weird to be kind of an elder statesman.
00:49:07You know, Satya, who runs Microsoft, has done such a brilliant job.
00:49:11And, you know, one of my great fears when I left Microsoft to go do philanthropy was how bad I would feel if it wasn't doing well.
00:49:21And so Steve Ballmer did a great job.
00:49:23And now Satya's with this AI generation.
00:49:25So that's another great blessing is that not only the value of the stock, but also the fact I can just focus on, okay, what about polio and malaria?
00:49:36You know, knowing that they're taking the company to new heights.
00:49:40You know, what a great blessing that's been for me.
00:49:45Yeah, it seems like, I love what you were just saying now that, you know, maybe there'll be a time when Elon turns to philanthropy.
00:49:50And you talked about others and it seems that that turning point for you is so key.
00:49:57And I feel like you were one of the first, not that it wasn't done before, but one of the first to do it in a really big way to be able to move away from this big company that you founded, world changing, generation changing, and then turning to that.
00:50:12And that service element to me, I was intrigued as to, why do you believe that that's almost where every one of these people need to go?
00:50:21Like, why is it that you believe that turning to a life of service and giving back is core for Elon or whoever else it may be?
00:50:28Well, it's pretty insane.
00:50:29This is a world where somebody can have over $100 billion.
00:50:34I mean, that, you know, what is that?
00:50:38And it's not, you know, you don't want to.
00:50:42Just give that to children and create some dynasty.
00:50:44That's not even a favor to them.
00:50:47You want to give that back.
00:50:48So these are unprecedented fortunes.
00:50:53And if you're a great innovator and you know how to gather scientists together and think about problems, then there are some government is risk averse.
00:51:02And particularly poor countries don't have that capacity to think about eradicating malaria or solving malnutrition.
00:51:10There is something that philanthropy can have these outsized results in terms of lives saved, almost like, you know, a great startup does on the side of innovation.
00:51:24So getting those minds to turn those capacities to equity, to the poorest, both inside the U.S. and outside the U.S., you know, I feel that, you know, we've got the golden rule.
00:51:39We're supposed to care about people.
00:51:41There are times when it feels like sympathy for poor people outside the country is lower today than it's been.
00:51:49But I know that'll come back around because of the moral logic there, I think.
00:51:55I believe is very, very strong.
00:51:59And, you know, I found it so fulfilling.
00:52:02And I created a group called Giving Pledge of people who've committed to give the majority of their wealth away.
00:52:09And we learn from each other.
00:52:11Hopefully, we inspire each other.
00:52:12Hopefully, we change the societal expectations that if you have even a modest fortune, most of it should combine with your talents and make the world a bit more of a fair place.
00:52:29Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant because I was really fortunate when I went out and lived as part of my time as a monk in India, we helped put together a—well, the monks were doing it already, but I got to be a part of it.
00:52:43I helped build a daily food distribution service in India that feeds a million kids a day.
00:52:49Wow.
00:52:50And it was all in exactly what you're saying, like to help them malnutrition children.
00:52:53And now they're even trying to figure out how much protein to have in it, like trying to figure out the actual composition as well.
00:53:00And I remember seeing that so early in my life.
00:53:03Like I would have gone out there first time in my teens and then later on when I became a monk in my early 20s.
00:53:10But the reason I raise it is because I think it goes back to what the point you made earlier about motivation.
00:53:15And one thing I've really been trying to figure out with the right partner recently is how when I grew up, I remember my dad used to read the Rich List.
00:53:24And he'd have the Rich List, like the Sunday Times or whatever it was.
00:53:28And so as a kid, I would see my dad and on the back of it would be the Rich List.
00:53:31And I was thinking, how incredible would it be if kids grew up with a service list?
00:53:34And how would that change motivation?
00:53:37Because I feel we repeat what we reward.
00:53:40And I feel like we've never really seen that case study yet up until maybe, you know, your case study and the people that are following with the Giving Pledge.
00:53:51That service becomes a natural part of life at that scale.
00:53:55I think we see it in smaller communities.
00:53:57You see people with very little actually doing so much.
00:54:00But you don't necessarily see it at that level.
00:54:02And so I find that changing that drive and motivation early on, which it seems like your mother had for you, your impact of faith had in you, I think that could be huge.
00:54:12I don't know what you think about people seeing a service list instead of a Rich List or whatever the right word is.
00:54:17Sadly, the wealth metric is an easier one to compute than, you know, the impact you've had philanthropically.
00:54:28And part of the beauty of philanthropy is there's many causes out there.
00:54:33You know, I've tried to think through, okay, you know, since we know how to save lives for $1,000 per life saved, wow, we better use this money as absolutely best we can.
00:54:47And I do think we're going to see a rise in philanthropy.
00:54:53I mean, you know, these fortunes are almost illegitimate unless they are in a very smart way given back.
00:55:04If it's consumption, if it's dynasty, I don't think society should feel that good about it.
00:55:11And, you know, I sat down with Bernie Saunders and he said, no, he would outlaw billionaires.
00:55:16I think that's a mistake.
00:55:17I think allowing in America, in particular, wild innovation, wild risk-taking is good.
00:55:26But then on the backside of that, there should be a strong expectation.
00:55:31And I think role models help a lot, you know, Warren Buffett in very different industry, very different skill set.
00:55:39You know, he's always been a role model and was the one who even when I was still building the fortune said, okay, your mom is right.
00:55:49You know, and here's some books you should read, you know, Carnegie Gospel of Wealth, the history of what Rockefeller did, you know, because this will be an important, as important a measure of your impact as making the money.
00:56:06Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant lesson and wonderful one to pass on.
00:56:10I think it was Trump who mentioned recently that you'd asked to see him to have a discussion.
00:56:15Did that meeting ever happen?
00:56:16Yeah, I had a very long and actually very impressive dinner in terms of he asked good questions.
00:56:24You know, I talked about over 10 million people are alive because of U.S. generosity with HIV medicines, going back to President Bush in 2003.
00:56:37And, you know, I encourage him to keep that as a priority and to accelerate innovation.
00:56:43You know, there's an idea that you might be able to cure AIDS that we're working on and he could help accelerate that.
00:56:49I talked about polio eradication and how his leadership and U.S. government resources are very important there.
00:56:58And, you know, I'm sure everybody's trying to meet with him.
00:57:01The fact he gave me that long period of time was actually pretty thoughtful in his questions.
00:57:05You know, somebody may come along later and tell him to cut that money, but I make the argument as best I can that, you know, the moral purpose of the U.S.
00:57:15and how we're thought of and, you know, the fact that a cure is on its way, that's worthwhile.
00:57:22You know, so this administration is in charge and, you know, trying to help them, you know, they're willing to cancel old things, some of which should maybe be canceled, some of which shouldn't.
00:57:35You know, so they're, you know, helping direct them so they'll use their open-mindedness to do different things and try and make that come out well.
00:57:44And I think that's worth trying.
00:57:46Yeah, what do you see as the moral purpose of the United States and the way you mentioned it just now?
00:57:51Well, we've been the shining light of not only being a democracy ourselves and, you know, having political opponents respect each other and work well together,
00:58:03but also, you know, saying that even though we're in this very powerful position, we won't abuse that position.
00:58:09And, okay, if we allowed ourselves, you know, to let other people spend too little on some things, you know, there's a balance there.
00:58:19But if you become too much of a bully and you're not keeping democracy, which, you know, requires reducing the polarization and bridging some of these divides, that's a little bit scary.
00:58:35You know, democracy is a fragile concept and particularly at a time when AI is coming along and the government will have to play a strong role in saying, okay, these jobs have been lost, but we're more productive overall.
00:58:49And therefore, here's how we help those people.
00:58:54You know, how do we keep AI as a primarily beneficial thing versus a thing that bad people use and it messes up these job markets?
00:59:07That, I expect the 2020 presidential debate AI policies will be the most important thing.
00:59:14And I was a little bit surprised in this election that wasn't discussed hardly at all.
00:59:20Yeah, that's such a good point.
00:59:21I didn't actually think of that, but you're right.
00:59:23It didn't come up at all.
00:59:25Yeah, that's fascinating.
00:59:27Well, I mean, how do you prepare for something like that?
00:59:30It would need to be surrounded by the right people and having the parties.
00:59:34Well, you've got to educate everyone.
00:59:36You know, you can't count on the technologists to shape these things.
00:59:39You know, social networking, we're still arguing about what the policies should be and, you know, the fact that algorithms reward outrageous things that, even if they're not at all factual, and AI heightens all of that.
00:59:55And, you know, there's an era where getting the politicians to see the technology, including all this good stuff, personal tutors, better medical care, even making the government more efficient.
01:00:08You know, this is the most promising set of tools because bureaucratic paperwork and AIs actually are pretty darn good at reading and processing those kinds of things.
01:00:23So, you know, we're on the precipice of these AI breakthroughs, the reliability and capabilities.
01:00:30You know, it's kind of an extension of what I worked on as a child, you know, personal computers, then internet, then cell phones, and now AI.
01:00:42But it's because it's super intelligence, it's of a different character, and it'll put us to the test on how we work together within the U.S. and how countries work together.
01:00:58Yeah, it's interesting because as you were talking about social media there, I think Mark Zuckerberg on Joe Rogan was saying that they are taking away their fact checkers, and I believe X is doing something similar.
01:01:10What was your take on that?
01:01:11You know, this whole thing of how you balance free speech versus not, you know, discouraging people from using vaccines when that would be beneficial for them, or even extreme stuff like Holocaust denial or some bad things there.
01:01:27I'm a little bit disappointed that my generation hasn't got a clear prescription to how we achieve both the goals, free speech and yet reasonable discourse that's not misleading people.
01:01:44I mean, during the pandemic, you know, the negativity about vaccines, some of which, you know, had me being some, you know, weird misbehaving actor, you know, which was a lot of craziness.
01:01:58You know, clearly over a million people died who should have benefited from the vaccine.
01:02:06And next time, you know, whether it's an out-of-control AI or the next pandemic, the impact of not getting facts out could be much more dramatic.
01:02:18I mean, the next, you could have a pathogen that was 10 times or 20 times as fatal as COVID was, particularly once Omicron comes along.
01:02:27And the fatality rate is actually reasonably modest and mostly elder people.
01:02:35So politics meets AI is where a lot of our fates will be determined even in the next 10 years.
01:02:46And how do you see your role in that?
01:02:48Well, hopefully, there's some things I really do understand about that.
01:02:53And whether it's giving advice to Microsoft or in my foundation work on education and health, you know, using it, you know, the place where you have the greatest shortage of teachers and doctors is in poor countries in Africa.
01:03:06And so the fact that these things, you know, can give farmers advice and give a pregnant women advice and look at what your kid is eating and say, no, you need more protein in this diet.
01:03:18And it's essentially free, you know, the way that computing was free that I saw when I was young.
01:03:24Now we're getting into this even more radical thing of intelligence will basically be free.
01:03:32You know, that's kind of wild stuff.
01:03:35So I hope both with some specific ideas, but then with the lessons of a past of, you know, where we've been able to shape things so far, you know, so that I think personal computing has largely been an empowering thing.
01:03:52You know, I was reading this book, Maxis, where Harari says that when the printing press comes along, it actually is books about witches and how you find witches that are the best selling.
01:04:03So just thinking because we have new capabilities that will necessarily use them at first in a net beneficial way, that's sadly a naive concept.
01:04:14Yeah, I mean, you've raised such a good point there.
01:04:16Even this idea, I loved what you said that you said you wish your generation could have figured out how to have, not have these extreme polarizing conversations, but actually find this healthy middle ground, whether that be through algorithms, whether that be through how we use technology.
01:04:31What is it that, why do we keep doing that?
01:04:34It almost feels like that's a repeated mistake where we come across this horizon of this new world, new technology, new ideas, but then we always use it for almost the same thing or something that feels, you know, insignificant compared to what it could do.
01:04:51Where are we going wrong?
01:04:52Why can't we get that right?
01:04:53Well, it's kind of amazing how well humanity is done.
01:04:57You know, the violent death rate over hundreds of years have gone down a lot.
01:05:03You know, more recently, we've gotten vaccines out to children and gotten the annual death rate from 10 million a year at the turn of the century down to about 5 million.
01:05:14Vaccines being the biggest part of that because we got them out to most of the world's children.
01:05:20So humanity for a being that grew up in these small hunter-gatherer groups, now, you know, we have big cities, complex technology.
01:05:29Our ability to get along, you know, in some ways has been good.
01:05:33You know, nuclear weapons that when I was young, you know, my greatest fear was, okay, there was going to be a nuclear war.
01:05:40And I do worry the current generation doesn't have that exposure to it.
01:05:45So we're, you know, the arms treaties and, you know, spending too much money on building those weapons.
01:05:52I do worry that we've lost track on that one, but at least, you know, we haven't used those.
01:05:58And, you know, we've done pretty well so far.
01:06:02And, you know, will we this time?
01:06:05I think this is probably the hardest innovation because, you know, we do have human limitations.
01:06:11They, even I, when I see an outrageous article against somebody I don't like politically, I'm very tempted to click on it and have it tell me, yeah, he's even stupider than you thought.
01:06:23Or, you know, he, this is a mistake.
01:06:26You know, we're all subject to that.
01:06:30And we do like to form into groups, but, you know, all of humanity ideally is a group where philanthropically and, you know, government generosity, we can think of ourselves as being part of that as opposed to a much, you know, our clan or race or nation.
01:06:51Yeah, I think on a global level, it requires what you are saying and on a personal level, it requires us to almost be able to evaluate, assimilate, assess, you know, have self-awareness, allow for self-reflection, space for, you know, the things we don't have time for anymore.
01:07:10You know, I was looking into something called the third space theory and how in the past you had your home, you had work, and then you had church or temple or community center.
01:07:22And how those three spaces, that third space was a place you could look back on home and work and say, oh, I could treat my wife a little bit better or I could have spoken to my colleague a bit better.
01:07:32And that third space allowed that time and energy where it was all about reflecting on how you could improve.
01:07:38But today, we've lost three spaces into two into one where we work from home, live at home, and the screen is our third space.
01:07:45And so, that lack of having a physical body or building that gives you permission to step back from your whole life, not play a role there, and actually purvey what's going on in your life, we've lost that.
01:08:03Yeah, that's a shame.
01:08:04You know, the decline of religion is a very strong trend.
01:08:10You'd hope there'd be a modern religion that takes whatever has put people off and yet preserves kind of this golden rule and this, okay, at a local community level, we're supposed to help each other.
01:08:23If you expect government to figure out how to solve things, you know, it's too bureaucratic.
01:08:30The local church-based groups, oh, this person needs help, I have extra time, you know, is way more effective.
01:08:38And so, we expect too much from government in a way.
01:08:43So, I hope we can re-energize, you know, perhaps through a type of religious modernization or maybe just a community thing that is maybe spiritual but not labeled as religion.
01:08:59That local engagement where you see other people, that I think we need more of it.
01:09:05Absolutely, absolutely.
01:09:07Bill, I've got you for a couple more moments, and there's a few things I wanted to ask you.
01:09:12One was, you talked about how, in the book, how being the smartest person in the room and that status was something that you maybe hid behind and your insecurities were hidden behind.
01:09:24And I was wondering, is that something that you've been able to put down that guard and take that away as time has moved on?
01:09:32How were you able to do that?
01:09:33Yeah, I've mellowed a little bit, you know, to learn how to work with people who are intelligent in different ways.
01:09:42You know, at Microsoft, I had to get marketing salespeople at the foundation, you know, people who go out in the field and do heroic work.
01:09:49And so my, you know, sort of single view of, okay, math capacity is, you know, this great thing, I've mellowed and been able to bring in different skill sets.
01:10:02But no, I started off being pretty bad at that.
01:10:06What were those insecurities that you were hiding?
01:10:08Well, you tend to manage other people the way you manage yourself.
01:10:11And so when I make a mistake in programming or math, I'm very tough on myself.
01:10:17And, you know, I'm like, you need to spend more time, you need to work harder.
01:10:21And it's kind of a tough love, don't fool yourself thing.
01:10:27And so my early management style worked for people like me, but not as well for other people.
01:10:35And so year by year, you know, I did grow with Microsoft.
01:10:38A lot of entrepreneurs, you know, don't stay as CEO and you have to bring in someone else.
01:10:45I wanted to do that.
01:10:47And so by bringing in some other people, I got better at that.
01:10:50I would say moving over to the foundation was another level of how you bring in a different mix of talent.
01:11:01And so, yeah, I'm trying.
01:11:02I'm still trying.
01:11:04I'll be better a year from now.
01:11:08Well, I was most excited that you said there's still two more books coming after this one to talk about the different areas of your life.
01:11:14And I really enjoyed this one so much.
01:11:16I'm so excited for people to read it, to get to know you better, to get to know the people that have changed your life for the better and allow you to do all the incredible, phenomenal work you do today.
01:11:26And I honestly am so inspired by the work you do today, and I really hope that I can be involved in some small way.
01:11:33So I thank you deeply.
01:11:34Well, thank you.
01:11:35It's been fantastic.
01:11:36It means the world.
01:11:37Bill, we end every episode with a final five.
01:11:40These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
01:11:46So Bill Gates, these are your final five.
01:11:47The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
01:11:51You know, finding what you really enjoy doing, and hopefully there's some job that has that, as opposed to, you know, what jobs pay well or other people push you to.
01:12:04If you're doing something you really enjoy, that's hard to beat.
01:12:08And you found that early.
01:12:09I was super lucky on that.
01:12:12You know, computers were there right when I needed them.
01:12:16Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
01:12:19People will tell you not to take risks, and it's very well-intentioned.
01:12:26But there are contexts, you know, when you're young, you know, like people say, okay, it must have been scary to drop out.
01:12:34Not really.
01:12:35I mean, I could have gone back.
01:12:37You know, there's no flesh wounds involved in failure.
01:12:42You know, so failure's, you know, probably a better teacher and more of an okay thing.
01:12:47And I think this whole safety thing, physical safety, you know, emotional safety, in many cases, we've gone too far.
01:12:57Yeah.
01:12:58But did dropping out at that time feel like a big risk?
01:13:01No, it didn't.
01:13:01Not even.
01:13:02The first time I felt it was when I was hiring people who moved their family and they had kids.
01:13:08And I was like, if I can't pay this guy his check, this is rude.
01:13:13You know, he's got a real problem.
01:13:15And I'm kind of implicitly promising him I've got this thing figured out.
01:13:19So that scared me.
01:13:20Yeah.
01:13:21Was that, there's a scene in the social network where you're on stage and Mark Zuckerberg's in your, in the auditorium.
01:13:28And then they leave and they say, the speaker just said, the next Bill Gates could be sitting in this room.
01:13:33And then Mark goes, that is Bill Gates.
01:13:35Is that true?
01:13:35That is absolutely true.
01:13:38Mark and I have laughed about that a lot.
01:13:40That our experience at Harvard, dropping out of Harvard, you know, telling people that, hey, we saw something other people didn't see.
01:13:48Very, very similar.
01:13:49Question number three, what would you say is the most important problem the smartest people on the planet should be solving right now?
01:13:58There's many candidates, you know, making sure we don't use nuclear weapons, avoid bioterrorism, climate change, caring for the poorest, which we're kind of losing that.
01:14:08But I would say shaping AI has, for me, risen to the top of that list.
01:14:14We need to do all those.
01:14:16We can't just skip, you know, any of those.
01:14:21But this one is going to be a very big deal in the next decade.
01:14:27And what would be your advice to the biggest business leaders in the world in regard to that?
01:14:33Well, I don't think you can count on them.
01:14:35Their competitive framework is to go full speed.
01:14:38And so only government's in a position to say, wait a minute, slow down.
01:14:42You know, for the good stuff, you want them to lower the price and get it done sooner.
01:14:49And so we can't, although, yes, they should be part of the dialogue and they're humans and citizens too.
01:14:56But you can't count on them because the metric for them is to go full speed.
01:15:04Question number four, what is your favorite mental health habit?
01:15:07You know, it's a very big deal for me to get time reading and thinking by myself, whether it's on a walk or going driving.
01:15:17When I was CEO of Microsoft, I took two full weeks, think weeks, one every six months, where I would just go off by myself and think, okay, is Microsoft on track?
01:15:29What are the trends? Towards the end, I'd write a memo, which actually was kind of valuable as we navigated the twists and turns, like when the internet comes along or, you know, software's not reliable enough.
01:15:43You know, I need that time to think, even though I love quick thinking, you know, being in a meeting and spotting a mistake.
01:15:52I think most of my good work has come from the kind of slow thinking where I'm off being reflective and maybe coming up with some non-obvious ideas.
01:16:03You know, maybe it's a little bit my, you know, being on the spectrum, I need that refreshment.
01:16:10You know, when I see my schedule with lots of social interaction for a week, then I'll try and make sure the next week has a little bit less of that.
01:16:19But, you know, to maintain creativity, you have to have some calmness and be not behind.
01:16:27If you feel like you're behind, like you turn on your email like, ah, oh, I'm late, you know, that, that, your creativity gets, gets squeezed out, one of the first things.
01:16:41And does that think week need to be in nature? Are you away from everything? Is it, are you simply thinking? Are you taking books? Are you journaling? Or is it?
01:16:48I'm taking books to read, but I'm also taking very long walks.
01:16:52On your own.
01:16:53And just thinking about things. And I love, I take a tablet, a paper and write things down quite a bit.
01:17:00And, you know, I'm, I'm pretty religious. I'm not taking phone calls.
01:17:04I'm not browsing the news. You know, the news can wait.
01:17:10You know, and I'm off by myself 20, 24 hours that whole time.
01:17:15Somebody can stick some food in.
01:17:18But, and, you know, that's kind of extreme.
01:17:22You know, there's people like Harari who meditate kind of an unbelievable amount.
01:17:26I've interviewed him.
01:17:26I almost envy him.
01:17:29I don't think I would go that far, but we should be more in his direction than we are.
01:17:35Yeah, absolutely. And what's the book you've gifted most, actually? I'm intrigued because you're such a big reader.
01:17:41You recommend so many great books. What's the book you've gifted to people close to you the most?
01:17:45There's a Steven Pinker book called Better Angels of Our Nature that talks about, even though in the short run we see how tough things are,
01:17:57if we zoom out a little bit and say, okay, 200 years ago, to be a woman, to be gay, you know, 30% of child children die, you know, lifespan is less than 50 years.
01:18:12You know, that's not saying there's a guarantee that those bad things we talked about won't happen.
01:18:18But people are a little overwrought and saying, okay, you know, this approach to government is failing.
01:18:26Maybe we should try something radical, like not, you know, being fully democratic.
01:18:31I'm like, whoa, wait a minute here.
01:18:33Yes, we need to feel bad about the things we're not doing, but we also need to have a perspective.
01:18:41The system of scientific inquiry and democracy and widening our circle of care, you know, beyond our family, clan, nation, as we discover new things and we can share more resources, that really is working.
01:19:01You know, it sounds naive to say that, but, you know, the books that really go through that, I find, you know, guide how I think about the world.
01:19:16Absolutely.
01:19:17Fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
01:19:23Well, if you look at all these religious texts, you know, I'd say the thing they all eventually come back to is the golden rule, which is to treat people how you would like to be treated.
01:19:35You know, I mean, say that you're about to be born and you don't know if you're going to be born a woman or in Africa.
01:19:41This is a thing that Warren Buffett taught me.
01:19:44You know, what you get to construct the world and how fair it is, and then you, we will randomly pick and you will be born in some place in some way.
01:19:55And, you know, I think the construct that would guide the world you'd want for that is very much going back to that golden rule.
01:20:07Not, okay, let's win wars, you know, let's out-compete or, you know, have more money or resources than other people.
01:20:16And so it's kind of a, it's one of the few universal truths that we should have that guide our behavior.
01:20:23I love that. Bill, thank you so much for your time on On Purpose today and genuinely so grateful for your time and energy.
01:20:29It was thrilling to talk to you and I love getting an early copy of the book and being ahead of the world on it.
01:20:34So thank you so much.
01:20:35Well, you know, I've loved our conversation, so look forward to more.
01:20:40If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama,
01:20:45where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing
01:20:49and the four check-ins you should be doing in your relationship.
01:20:54We also talk about how to deal with relationships when they're under stress.
01:20:58If you're going through something right now with your partner or someone you're seeing, this is the episode for you.
01:21:04No wonder our kids are struggling.
01:21:06We have a new technology and we've just taken it in hook, line and sinker.
01:21:11And we have to be mindful for our kids.
01:21:14They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know, their minds never sleeping.
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