- 3 days ago
Robine Fisher is charged with infanticide.
Jennie Stoller appears as the defendant. Check her out in "Within These Walls - Love me, love my bear" in which she plays a psychotic inmate. She's also known for her appearance in another Crown Court "Still Waters", as well as Assignment 5 of "Sapphire & Steel". John Horsley, who plays the Justice, is known as Doc Morrissey in "The Fall & Rise of Reginald Perrin". Some Doctor Who alumni here too. David Ashford, Prosecuting Counsel, also appeared in "Greatest Show in the Galaxy" with Sylvester McCoy. John Franklin-Robbins (Dr Gillivray) appeared with Tom Baker in "Genesis of the Daleks" and David Garfield (Dr Farrell) appeared in "The War Games" with Patrick Troughton. Alun Lewis (Geoffrey Fisher) found fame in Emmerdale and Birds of a Feather, whilst Anne Reid (Mrs Cook) is known most recently in "Last Tango in Halifax" - she released a CD with Derek Jacobi called "You are the best thing...". :)
Jennie Stoller appears as the defendant. Check her out in "Within These Walls - Love me, love my bear" in which she plays a psychotic inmate. She's also known for her appearance in another Crown Court "Still Waters", as well as Assignment 5 of "Sapphire & Steel". John Horsley, who plays the Justice, is known as Doc Morrissey in "The Fall & Rise of Reginald Perrin". Some Doctor Who alumni here too. David Ashford, Prosecuting Counsel, also appeared in "Greatest Show in the Galaxy" with Sylvester McCoy. John Franklin-Robbins (Dr Gillivray) appeared with Tom Baker in "Genesis of the Daleks" and David Garfield (Dr Farrell) appeared in "The War Games" with Patrick Troughton. Alun Lewis (Geoffrey Fisher) found fame in Emmerdale and Birds of a Feather, whilst Anne Reid (Mrs Cook) is known most recently in "Last Tango in Halifax" - she released a CD with Derek Jacobi called "You are the best thing...". :)
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TVTranscript
00:00:00The
00:00:16case you're about to see is a fictitious one, but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:00:21The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the general public.
00:00:26Mr. Charles Lotterby, who appears for the Crown, has at the outset raised a point of law
00:00:32concerning the inadmissibility of certain evidence.
00:00:35Mr. Justice Mowbray has decided that the jury should leave the court while the matter is under discussion.
00:00:45Well, my lord, it is of course the prosecution's case that the baby's death was deliberate,
00:00:49and I'm proposing to call evidence that the accused had already behaved violently towards this baby,
00:00:55and another baby in the past.
00:00:57But I understand my learned friend objects to my introducing this evidence.
00:01:01That is so, my lord.
00:01:02Yes, Mr. Lotterby, it's obviously sensible for us to deal with it now.
00:01:06Miss Hawthorne?
00:01:07My lord, I of course rely on the principle that it's not generally permissible for the prosecution
00:01:11to induce evidence of an accused's previous bad conduct.
00:01:14Yes, Miss Lotterby, you must bring yourself within one of the exceptions to the rule.
00:01:18I suppose you say it's similar fact evidence which rebuts the defense of accident.
00:01:24Indeed, my lord.
00:01:25It is the prosecution's case that whenever this woman has a baby, she suffers severe postnatal depression,
00:01:30and her babies suffer injuries as a result.
00:01:33In each case, she maintains that the injuries were accidental.
00:01:37But it is the prosecution's case that these events cannot be explained on the basis of coincidence,
00:01:43and, moreover, that the circumstances of each are so similar that the evidence has a particular cogency of its own.
00:01:49Hmm.
00:01:50Yes, it must be admissible, mustn't it, Miss Hawthorne, to rebut the defense of accident.
00:01:55Very well, my lord.
00:01:56Thank you, Miss Hawthorne.
00:01:57Thank you, Miss Lotterby.
00:01:58The jury may now be recalled.
00:02:00I call Geoffrey Fisher.
00:02:02Geoffrey Fisher.
00:02:05I told you.
00:02:26I told you you should have got that baby off her.
00:02:29I told you she was hurting it.
00:02:32It could have been an accident.
00:02:35Oh, little my.
00:02:37I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:02:43Will you give the court your full name, address, and occupation?
00:02:46Geoffrey Ronald Fisher, 6 Overbury Court, Old Station Road, Fulchester.
00:02:51Long dis...
00:02:52I'm a long-distance lorry driver, sir.
00:02:54You are the husband of the accused...
00:02:56Today's case in the Crown Court arose out of the death of Michael Fisher, seven-month-old son of Robine and Geoffrey Fisher.
00:03:03Michael was found dead in his cot by his father, and as a result of police inquiries, Robine Fisher has been charged with smothering him while in a state of postnatal depression.
00:03:14She maintains that Michael's death was an accident.
00:03:17And what happened when you returned home?
00:03:20Well, in the afternoon it was.
00:03:23I have to spend a lot of nights away from home, sir.
00:03:25With the lorry, you know.
00:03:27So I've been away a couple of days when this happened.
00:03:30And the first thing I find, the milk's not been taken in since I went.
00:03:34And there were letters all over the map.
00:03:36And so I called the wife, but there wasn't any answer.
00:03:39So I went into the sitting room, and it's all dark, with the curtains drawn.
00:03:44And then I see her.
00:03:47The wife.
00:03:48In the armchair.
00:03:50Just sitting there.
00:03:52Didn't look up.
00:03:54Didn't say anything.
00:03:56I've never seen anything like it.
00:03:59She was like, you know, like a ghost or something.
00:04:02Did you speak to her?
00:04:03Yeah, I said, what's up?
00:04:05What's the matter?
00:04:07And I got this terrible feeling.
00:04:09I said, where's Michael?
00:04:11Something happened to Michael.
00:04:13And then she didn't say anything at all.
00:04:20Because he ought to have, you know, been playing in there.
00:04:24Afternoons was when she had him in there playing with his bricks and that.
00:04:27What was Mrs. Fisher's reaction?
00:04:29Well, nothing.
00:04:30She just kept on staring in front of us.
00:04:33So I rushed into Michael's room, and that's when I found him.
00:04:36His body in the cot.
00:04:39Was Michael lying in his normal position?
00:04:43Well, sir, he always slept on his back.
00:04:46And that was the way he was when I looked.
00:04:48But the thing was, there were a load of blankets.
00:04:51Four blankets and a pillow piled over his head.
00:04:55And so I had to lift them off just to get at him.
00:05:01It was just in his vest, sir.
00:05:04No nappy or anything.
00:05:05His nappy was on the floor.
00:05:07I went to pick him up, sir.
00:05:11But when I touched him, he was cold and not the right color.
00:05:16And I realized he wasn't breathing.
00:05:19And so I put my head to his chest.
00:05:22I knew he was dead.
00:05:27Mr. Fisher, I appreciate that this is painful for you.
00:05:30But would you describe exactly how the pillow and the blankets were covering, Michael?
00:05:36Here.
00:05:39Sorry.
00:05:40The pillow was on top of his face.
00:05:46It was one of those baby pillows, you know, small.
00:05:49And then the blankets, they were just dumped over him, over the pillow and all, any old owl.
00:05:55Was Michael much of a wriggler?
00:05:57I mean, could he have accidentally wriggled under the pillow?
00:05:59For goodness sake, he was only a little baby.
00:06:01I mean, he didn't move about that much.
00:06:05And also, he could have got the thing over his head like that, you know, neat.
00:06:10And then he had bruises on his arms as if he'd been held down.
00:06:14And he never used to sleep with a pillow in his cot at all.
00:06:18It was the one from his pram, you know, to prop him up so he could see things when she took him round the shops.
00:06:24Well, it's dangerous, isn't it, using a pillow with a baby, in case that did happen.
00:06:29In case the baby got suffocated by it.
00:06:32So he never slept with a pillow.
00:06:34Where was the pillow normally kept?
00:06:36In the pram in the hallway of the flat.
00:06:39And the blankets, were they from the pram too?
00:06:41No, they were his ordinary cot blankets.
00:06:43It was just the pillow that was from the pram.
00:06:46Now, Mr. Fisher, what did you do after you discovered Michael's body?
00:06:50I went back to the wife and asked her what happened.
00:06:54What did you say to her?
00:06:56I said, exactly what I said, you mean?
00:06:59Indeed, yes, Mr. Fisher.
00:07:02I said, you murdering bitch, you've done in the kid.
00:07:08What was Mrs. Fisher's response?
00:07:11She just said, I must have.
00:07:14And then she just went on staring and staring and staring.
00:07:22So I went and got the doctor and got the police.
00:07:24Mr. Fisher, when you left home two days before to carry out your driving job, what was your wife's state of mind?
00:07:31Very depressed, I'd say.
00:07:33Was that unusual?
00:07:34No, well, she'd get these depressions in bouts after Michael was born.
00:07:37What form did these depressions take?
00:07:39I was sort of sitting around, not being able to do the housework.
00:07:43Saying she wished she'd never had the baby.
00:07:46I mean, I couldn't understand it, because he was a happy little chap.
00:07:49You know, really easy.
00:07:52She had some pills from the doctor, but they didn't seem to be doing no good.
00:07:57Was she depressed before she had Michael?
00:07:59No, no, not a bit of it.
00:08:01She was fine as long as she didn't have a baby to look after.
00:08:04Always going out.
00:08:05Plenty of friends.
00:08:06Just, well, cheerful.
00:08:09No, this thing, it was what you call postnatal depression.
00:08:13Severe postnatal depression.
00:08:15That's what the doctor said, is it? Postnatal depression?
00:08:18Yeah.
00:08:19Well, it is something women get, some of them, when they've had a baby.
00:08:22My lord, it is, of course, a medically recognised syndrome of depressive illness.
00:08:26Cause it is thought by hormonal changes associated with pregnancy and parturition.
00:08:30And lasting anything between a few weeks and 18 months.
00:08:33At its most severe, it is not unknown for a normally gentle and placid woman to exhibit symptoms of violence which would...
00:08:39My lord.
00:08:40Yes, Miss Hawthorne.
00:08:41Mr. Lotterby is not a qualified medical practitioner, my lord.
00:08:44And I'm not prepared to sit here and let him give evidence on matters quite outside his competence.
00:08:49Mr. Lotterby.
00:08:50My lord, I will be calling expert evidence on this matter in due course.
00:08:52Yes, I think Miss Hawthorne's objection is justified.
00:08:55As your lordly pleases.
00:08:58Mr. Fisher, had Michael, before his death, been treated by a doctor for any injuries?
00:09:04Yeah, twice.
00:09:06In May 77 and then July 77.
00:09:09On the first occasion, what were these injuries?
00:09:11He was bruised on the back of his head and had got concussion.
00:09:15How did it happen?
00:09:16Well, Michael had this crying spell, you see.
00:09:21Well, I said before he was a happy baby.
00:09:24But the night when it happened, he just went on crying for some reason.
00:09:28I asked Mrs. Fisher to be patient with him, but she was really working herself up into a temper.
00:09:36Did the baby crying always affect Mrs. Fisher that way?
00:09:39He'd sort of start something off in her, you know.
00:09:41She'd start swearing about the baby and things.
00:09:44What did Mrs. Fisher do on this occasion?
00:09:46Well, she went into his room and shouted at him to be quiet and then came back into the front room where I was.
00:09:52But Michael just went on crying for some reason, louder by then.
00:09:57And she said, I'll wring his neck for him in a minute, and went back into his room.
00:10:06There was this terrible crashing sound and everything went quiet.
00:10:13When I went in to see what was up, Michael was lying at the wrong end of the cot of his head against the bars.
00:10:19He'd been knocked unconscious.
00:10:20And what was Mrs. Fisher's explanation for all this?
00:10:23She said she'd picked him up and then tripped over something and dropped him.
00:10:28She said he must have fallen with his head against the side of the cot and banged his head.
00:10:33Did she show you what she'd tripped on?
00:10:35No, she said she didn't know what it could have been.
00:10:37Did you see anything that could have tripped?
00:10:39No, there wasn't anything. No toys, no carpet or anything. It was just bare floorboards.
00:10:44Did you hear any noise from the front room that could have been Mrs. Fisher tripping over?
00:10:47No.
00:10:48Did you hear any footsteps?
00:10:49No, no, no. The only sound I heard was her walking in and then stopping in the crashes.
00:10:52Michael was there at the side of the cot.
00:10:53Now, what was the second occasion on which Michael was treated for injuries?
00:10:57Well, the thing happened after I'd left for a driving job, and I didn't get back till late that night.
00:11:02Mrs. Cook, the lady from next door, she was around when it happened, but I wasn't.
00:11:06But she told me all about it.
00:11:07Oh, Mrs. Cook will be giving evidence of due course, my lord.
00:11:10Mr. Fisher, around the time this incident happened, what was your wife's state of mind?
00:11:16Well, same as the other time. She was very depressed.
00:11:19Yes, I see.
00:11:21Now, Mr. Fisher, was Michael your wife's first child?
00:11:25No, there's another boy, Darren, from previous marriage.
00:11:28Well, no, to be honest, sir, my wife wasn't expecting him when we got married.
00:11:32April 75, that was, and Darren was born in July.
00:11:36Oh, I mean, he wasn't my kid, but I didn't mind. As far as I was concerned, he was my own son.
00:11:43After Darren was born, did your wife suffer from postnatal depression?
00:11:47Well, I didn't know that that was what it was then, but she became a completely different girl from the one I married.
00:11:52I mean, she used to be really great, you know, ever since I'd known her.
00:11:56After Darren was born, she just changed, got very down, very bad tempered, didn't want to go out.
00:12:02So, eventually, I made a go to the doctor, and he said that that was what it was.
00:12:07Did Darren suffer any injuries at all?
00:12:09Yeah. In January 76, he was treated for a broken hand and badly bruised ribs.
00:12:15How old was he at the time?
00:12:17Six months old.
00:12:19How did the injuries happen?
00:12:21Well, I don't know. I mean, first of all, the wife said she'd left the side of the cot down, and Darren had rolled out.
00:12:30But then when I went to check the cot to make sure it wouldn't happen again, I found that you couldn't get the side of the cot down that far, not so as it could roll out.
00:12:40So then she said she'd made a mistake. She hadn't meant the cot at all. She'd meant our bed.
00:12:47She'd had Darren on the bed, and he'd rolled off.
00:12:51How far from the floor was the top of this bed, Mr. Fisher?
00:12:54About a foot and a half, and the floor's carpeted.
00:12:57Why?
00:13:00As a result of these injuries to Darren, what did you do?
00:13:03I persuaded Mrs. Fisher to let Darren go and be looked after by her mother, Mrs. Corrigan.
00:13:08What was Mrs. Fisher's reaction to this?
00:13:10Well, in the end, she'd come round to my way of thinking, but she was terrible about it at first.
00:13:14In what way terrible?
00:13:16Well, the thing she said. She said if she'd known she was going to go through all that she'd gone through and then have her kid taken away, she'd rather have done away with him herself while she had the chance.
00:13:29Yeah.
00:13:30Thank you, Mr. Fisher.
00:13:31Mr. Fisher, how many nights a week did your job take you away from home?
00:13:44Two, sometimes three.
00:13:45Of course, you were absent from home every day as well.
00:13:48Yeah.
00:13:49And I believe you worked at least two weekends a month to earn overtime.
00:13:52That's right, yeah.
00:13:53And while you were away, your wife was left in sole charge of Michael.
00:13:57Yeah.
00:13:58So, if Michael was a happy baby, as you've told us he was, it would be entirely due to the affectionate mothering of Mrs. Fisher, wouldn't it?
00:14:07Well, um...
00:14:09What, Mr. Fisher? Do you now wish to tell us that you've changed your mind and that Michael was not a happy baby?
00:14:15No, look, what I meant was she didn't look after him that well. I mean, his clothes were never cleaned.
00:14:19Mr. Fisher, we're not concerned with the discrepancy between your ideas of hygiene and those of your wife.
00:14:23He was lucky they got a bath once a week.
00:14:25We are concerned with establishing whether or not your wife treated Michael with love and affection.
00:14:29Yes, sir.
00:14:30And if you were telling the truth when you told us that he was happy, then surely you must acknowledge that she did.
00:14:35Listen, if she'd been any sort of mother, he wouldn't be dead, would he?
00:14:49During her bouts of depression, did your wife ever behave violently towards Darren or Michael in front of you?
00:14:55No.
00:14:56Well, she wouldn't, would she?
00:14:57How, in fact, did she behave during her bouts of depression?
00:15:00Well, like I said, sort of sitting around the house.
00:15:05No energy, just sitting, you know, not bothering to get dressed or do the housework. I ended up doing it.
00:15:11She was completely lethargic, in fact.
00:15:13Hmm.
00:15:14She was also rather a clumsy person, wasn't she?
00:15:18No, not more than most.
00:15:19Oh, come on, Mr. Fisher.
00:15:20On several occasions during the past two and a half years, your wife was treated by her doctor for a number of accidental injuries, was she not?
00:15:27Oh, yeah, or a couple of piddling little cuts or burns or something.
00:15:30Severe scalding after spilling a pan of water over her arm, a sewing machine needle through her finger, a sprained wrist after slipping over in a pair of high-heeled shoes.
00:15:42Now, Mr. Fisher, these are what you've rather callously described as a couple of piddling little cuts or burns.
00:15:48Don't they indicate to you someone who was clumsy or accident-prone?
00:15:51Yeah, well, maybe it seems that way, but she wasn't.
00:15:54Not in the normal way of things, you mean?
00:15:56Right.
00:15:57But, Mr. Fisher, we aren't talking about what your wife was like normally.
00:16:00We're talking about the effects on your wife's behaviour of postnatal depression.
00:16:05Depression which caused an otherwise careful and loving mother to become lethargic and clumsy.
00:16:10It wasn't like that.
00:16:11So clumsy, in fact, that not only her children, but she herself suffered from these unfortunate but accidental injuries.
00:16:17You're twisting my words around. It's not like what you're trying to make me say.
00:16:20How do you know what it was like, Mr. Fisher, since you were never actually present when any of these injuries occurred?
00:16:24Look, I saw the bruises. I saw those kids wearing filthy clothes, lying in filthy blankets with plasters on their arms or plasters on their ribs or bruises on their heads.
00:16:36And every time there was some pathetic story which never fitted.
00:16:39Yeah, and all right, I was never there when she had a go at them.
00:16:42Of course I wouldn't. She wouldn't touch them in front of me.
00:16:45I come home to find my little lad with a pillow on his head and covered in punch marks.
00:16:50And all that's come of it is some creep like you trying to make me say,
00:16:53Yeah, okay, fine. It's just been a lot of accidents in my family.
00:17:20So you say it was with the entirely altruistic motive of getting Darren better cared for and helping your wife recover from her depression that you had Darren removed into his grandmother's care.
00:17:31But that wasn't your motive at all, was it, Mr. Fisher?
00:17:34How do you mean?
00:17:35You told Mrs. Fisher that as a wife to you she was a dead loss.
00:17:40I might have done it in a row.
00:17:43And you gave Mrs. Fisher an ultimatum because of it, didn't you?
00:17:46A what?
00:17:47An ultimatum, Mr. Fisher, is what you gave your wife when you told her that unless she stopped moping over that other bastard's kid, then as far as you were concerned the marriage was over.
00:17:58Do you deny that you said that?
00:18:00Sorry, I don't remember.
00:18:02Then I'll refresh your memory.
00:18:04Thanks.
00:18:07It was on the occasion of your sister's birthday party, which your wife, tired and depressed after the birth of Darren, quite understandably did not wish to attend.
00:18:18Surely you remember now, Mr. Fisher?
00:18:20Yeah, well, like I said, maybe it was in a row or something.
00:18:24But, you know, you say things in rows, things that you don't mean off the top of your head.
00:18:28Or do you say things you do mean?
00:18:29Eh?
00:18:30Things you keep to yourself until you lose control.
00:18:32Look, I told you before, as far as I was concerned, Darren was my own son.
00:18:35A sentiment which does you credit, Mr. Fisher.
00:18:38And one I am sure that you tried very hard to maintain, until you discovered that far from being able to look upon Darren as your own son, you in fact resented the presence in your marriage of the other bastard's kid.
00:18:49I didn't.
00:18:50I didn't.
00:18:51The truth is, isn't it, Mr. Fisher, that you used the excuse of your wife's depression to have Darren placed in someone else's care.
00:18:57I didn't, I didn't.
00:18:59Look, well, maybe I said what you told me I did, but I couldn't have meant it.
00:19:04Indeed, Mr. Fisher?
00:19:05No, it was just something you throw at someone, I mean when you're angry.
00:19:08In that case, why did you not have Michael sent away the first time he was hurt?
00:19:11Because it was different that time.
00:19:12Different, Mr. Fisher?
00:19:13Yes!
00:19:14On the contrary, as you have been at some pains to point out to us, the circumstances were exactly the same.
00:19:19Look, it was different that time because it was her second kid.
00:19:23Oh, for God's sake, she'd already had one kid taken away from her, she couldn't have stood losing the other as well.
00:19:29I mean, she was bad enough with him, but if she'd have lost him as well, well, I thought she might go around the bend.
00:19:38Isn't it the truth, Mr. Fisher, that you were not, in fact, as suspicious about Michael's accidents as you would like us to believe?
00:19:45No.
00:19:46I mean, I was suspicious.
00:19:48Well, if that's right, Mr. Fisher, if you were so concerned about your wife's behaviour, why did you not only allow her to have another baby, but leave her in charge of that new baby for such long periods?
00:19:58I was there as much as I could be.
00:20:00All that voluntary overtime at weekends, Mr. Fisher.
00:20:02We needed the money.
00:20:03But you could still have told the doctor about Michael.
00:20:06I did!
00:20:07Only after Michael's second accident.
00:20:09Only after your neighbour, Mrs. Cook, took it upon herself to report her suspicions to the doctor.
00:20:14Now, you were much closer to your wife than any mere neighbour, Mr. Fisher.
00:20:18You had much more opportunity to observe what really went on, and you didn't report anything to your doctor until influenced by Mrs. Cook, did you?
00:20:26I wasn't influenced by her.
00:20:28It's my wife we're talking about.
00:20:30Men don't tell on their wives.
00:20:32Well, not if they're...
00:20:34Not if they want to make a go of their marriage.
00:20:38Look, can't you see, I didn't want my marriage to break up.
00:20:43At first I thought if I'd tried to help and understand her, it would be alright.
00:20:48You know, she'd get over it.
00:20:50The bad things she was doing.
00:20:52Well, if I'd have thought she could have...
00:20:55Do what she did to Michael in the end, yeah, yeah, then it would have been different.
00:20:59I would have got something done about it before it was too late.
00:21:02But, er, I didn't know.
00:21:07You can't know...
00:21:09Not your own wife.
00:21:11No, you can't believe she'd be as bad as that.
00:21:14You can't believe she'd be as bad as that.
00:21:17Hmm.
00:21:19Mr. Fisher, are you still living in the home you shared with your wife?
00:21:24No.
00:21:25I moved out soon after Michael died.
00:21:27How soon after?
00:21:29Three weeks, just about.
00:21:31Are you living on your own now?
00:21:34No.
00:21:35Aren't you, in fact, living with another woman?
00:21:38My lord, I fail to see the relevance of this line of questioning.
00:21:41Yes, Mr. Lotterby.
00:21:42What point are you trying to establish, Miss Hawthorne?
00:21:44My lord, I'm trying to show that the witness's attitude to his wife may well be colored by another relationship.
00:21:50I suppose it could be relevant, Mr. Lotterby.
00:21:53Very well, my lord.
00:21:55Mr. Fisher, aren't you, in fact, living with another woman?
00:21:59Well, yeah.
00:22:02We're hoping to get married as soon as all...
00:22:05Well, I've already started divorce proceedings against Mrs. Fisher.
00:22:09Divorce proceedings?
00:22:11Well, divorce isn't a criminal offence, Miss Hawthorne.
00:22:14No, my lord.
00:22:15But I think the jury should know when these proceedings started.
00:22:19Mm-hmm.
00:22:21When did you start them?
00:22:22Oh, well, I moved out at the same time.
00:22:24And when you moved out, it was straight to this other woman's house, was it not?
00:22:29Yeah, but there was nothing between me and this other woman before, when I was still with Mrs. Fisher, I mean.
00:22:34Really, Mr. Fisher?
00:22:35Three weeks was enough, was it, for you to meet and become involved with another woman to the point where you set up home with her?
00:22:41Well, I knew her from before.
00:22:42How long before?
00:22:43A couple of months before, but as a friend.
00:22:45Oh.
00:22:46But it was around the time that you met your friend that you approached the doctor about your wife's unsatisfactory behavior.
00:22:53Yeah?
00:22:54Well, it's got nothing to do with it, if that's what you mean.
00:22:57On the contrary, Mr. Fisher, doesn't it have everything to do with it?
00:23:00No.
00:23:01I suggest to you that you at last reported your wife's behavior to your doctor to demonstrate her unfitness as a mother.
00:23:07I didn't.
00:23:08Because at this time you were hoping to divorce her.
00:23:09I wasn't.
00:23:10And set up home with this other woman.
00:23:11That's not true.
00:23:12Taking Michael with you.
00:23:13Listen, you're trying to make me out to be some sort of...
00:23:20Look.
00:23:22All the things I've told you about.
00:23:24About Mrs. Fisher.
00:23:25Yeah, well alright.
00:23:27If Michael was alive, yeah.
00:23:29I'd have something to gain.
00:23:31But all the things I've told the police.
00:23:34And everything I've told you.
00:23:39Michael's dead now.
00:23:41And nothing nobody says is going to bring him back.
00:23:52Join us again tomorrow when the case of the Queen against Fisher will be resumed in the Crown Court.
00:24:07I call Dr. McGillivray.
00:24:08John McGillivray is the pathologist of St. Andrew's Hospital, Forchester.
00:24:10Following a post-mortem examination carried out by him on nine-month-old microbiome.
00:24:15Michael Fisher, the police instituted proceedings against Robine Fisher, his mother.
00:24:16For smothering his death, he was a man.
00:24:17I call Dr. McGillivray.
00:24:18John McGillivray is the pathologist of St. Andrew's Hospital, Forchester.
00:24:20Following a post-mortem examination carried out by him on nine-month-old Michael Fisher,
00:24:27the police instituted proceedings against Robine Fisher, his mother.
00:24:32For smothering Michael, while in a state of severe post-natal depression.
00:24:35She has pleaded, not give him a chance.
00:24:38I call Dr. McGillivray.
00:24:40John McGillivray is the pathologist of St. Andrew's Hospital, Forchester.
00:24:43Following a post-mortem examination carried out by him on nine-month-old Michael Fisher,
00:24:46the police instituted proceedings against Robine Fisher, his mother.
00:24:49He did not guilty.
00:24:51You were the pathologist who carried out the post-mortem examination on nine-month-old Michael Fisher.
00:24:56I was.
00:24:57What did you find is the primary cause of death?
00:24:59Failure, whether accidental or induced, of the breathing mechanism.
00:25:04Can you say whether either of the two possible causes is the more probable?
00:25:08It could have been accidental, though I consider it unlikely.
00:25:12What evidence was there to indicate that Michael's death was not accidental?
00:25:15A good deal.
00:25:17I have here photographs of all the bruising, plus the blankets, and the pillow, and the photographs over there.
00:25:25And the vest he was wearing at the time of death.
00:25:27Are those the photographs, the vest, the pillow, and the blankets?
00:25:31They are.
00:25:33And all these are exhibits one to five.
00:25:38Perhaps they may be shown to the jury.
00:25:41Perhaps you could take us through the pictures one at a time, Doctor, if you would.
00:25:45Of course.
00:25:47Exhibit one.
00:25:49This photograph shows the corpse of the infant.
00:25:53The infant is spread-eagled, dressed only in a soiled vest.
00:25:59We cut the vest from the corpse, and then photograph Exhibit two was taken.
00:26:05You'll notice the bruising in the region of the shoulders.
00:26:09Fresh bruising.
00:26:11Suggesting finger marks, and consistent with the baby having been forcibly gripped and held down.
00:26:18You'll also see slight bruising in the face, and slight bruising by the nostril, suggesting that pressure had also been applied there.
00:26:28Was this bruising in the nasal region consistent with the baby having had a pillow pressed over his face?
00:26:34Quite consistent, yes.
00:26:36It would not be as marked as in the region of the shoulders because of the diffusing effect of the pillow.
00:26:44But it could have been caused by the pressure of the hand pressing upon the pillow.
00:26:50Is there any other way in which these bruises could have occurred on some other occasion?
00:26:57A fall, for instance, or having been dropped?
00:27:00I do not think there is any angle at which he could have fallen, from which he could have obtained bruising in such a pattern.
00:27:08This would be borne out by the absence of bruising in other areas, such as the cranial region or the lower limbs,
00:27:13which I would have expected to be present if a falling accident had occurred.
00:27:18In your opinion, Doctor, had Michael been well cared for prior to his death?
00:27:23I do not pretend to be able to assert whether or not he had received sufficient mothering in the emotional sense.
00:27:33But at the time of his death, he was considerably underweight for a baby of his age and size.
00:27:38He was inadequately clad, merely a vest, for sleeping in at that time of year.
00:27:45And he was very dirty.
00:27:47Thank you very much, Doctor.
00:27:52Dr. McGillivray, could the bruises found on Michael have been made after the moment of death?
00:27:58I do not quite see what you are getting at. How soon after?
00:28:02What I am getting at, Dr. McGillivray, is could they have been made at any time after Michael's death?
00:28:08In order to present the appearance they did, in fact, present, they would have had to have been made very soon after, within minutes, perhaps even seconds.
00:28:17Could they have been made by the frantic attempts of a distraught mother to, let us say, shake some life into the body of a much-loved baby that she had just found dead?
00:28:26Yes. It is theoretically possible, yes.
00:28:30Could the slight bruising beside the baby's nose be due to his mother's frightened attempts to resuscitate him by means of the kiss of life method, which necessitates pinching the nose in order to be effective?
00:28:40Again, I would say theoretically, yes. Provided always, of course, that Mrs. Fisher was actually aware of this method of resuscitation.
00:28:48It has been given wide publicity in many of the women's magazines, Dr. McGillivray.
00:28:53Now, no doubt, in the course of your work as a pathologist, you have had to investigate a number of sudden infant deaths.
00:29:00Unfortunately, yes.
00:29:02Doubtless. Then, you are familiar with the syndrome known as cot death.
00:29:05Of course.
00:29:06Doctor, I expect we all understand what we mean by cot death, but could you give us a medical definition of the term?
00:29:13It is generally defined, my lord, as the unexpected death of an apparently normal and healthy infant under two years of age.
00:29:24I am instructed, my lord, that it usually occurs when the infant is put to bed, and when looked at a few hours later, or the next morning, is found to be dead.
00:29:33Is that so, Doctor?
00:29:35Yes.
00:29:37Dr. McGillivray, is it ever possible to tell for certain, on the basis only of a post-mortem examination, whether an infant found dead in mysterious circumstances, as Michael was, has been smothered, or whether he is, in fact, the victim of this unfortunate cot death syndrome?
00:29:56It depends on the strength of the evidence either way. If the infant is clean and well fed, looks well cared for, then naturally we prefer to give the mother the benefit of the doubt and return a verdict of cot death.
00:30:14You have not quite answered my question, Doctor McGillivray. I repeat, is it ever possible to tell for certain?
00:30:21No, it is not possible to tell for certain. A post-mortem itself cannot reveal all the circumstances of a death.
00:30:31Thank you very much indeed, Doctor McGillivray, you've been most helpful.
00:30:44Mrs. Cook, how long have you lived next door to the accused, Mrs. Fisher?
00:30:48Well, I was there when they moved in. It would be about May 1975.
00:30:53Did you do a lot of babysitting for Mrs. Fisher?
00:30:56Well, if she wanted to go out, she'd leave me with the front door key and then, if I heard Michael cry or anything, I was to go in and see if he was all right. The walls of the flats are quite thin, you see.
00:31:06How often did you have to go in?
00:31:08Well, I mean, to tell you the truth, I used to go in anyway, even if he didn't cry, just to see he was comfortable.
00:31:13I don't always leave kids on their own at the best of times, do you?
00:31:18Indeed not.
00:31:19Mrs. Cook, you had ample opportunity to study Michael's progress from week to week.
00:31:24Was he well cared for?
00:31:26Was he what?
00:31:28Poor little mite.
00:31:30If he had a change of clothes once in a week, I'd like to have seen it.
00:31:34He had a dirty vest, runny nose, food all down his jumper.
00:31:38Stank he did.
00:31:39Blimey, he didn't even have a clean nappy most of the time.
00:31:43I mean, I'd find him with a, with a soaking wet tea towel on him or, well, sometimes just nothing at all.
00:31:49Did you ever notice anything else about him?
00:31:52Yes, I saw bruises on him three times.
00:31:54Would you describe those times, please?
00:31:57Well, the first I saw was, erm, May last year.
00:32:02He was about four months old.
00:32:03There was some on his ribs.
00:32:05And, erm, I said to her at the time, you know, just sort of curious-like, how'd he get them?
00:32:11And her face, well, red wasn't the word.
00:32:14I mean, beetroot she went and mumbled something about him slipping out of her hands when she was giving him his bath.
00:32:20Did you say anything more to her about it?
00:32:22Well, no.
00:32:23You know, not at the time.
00:32:24I mean, I might not have thought any more of it except I found some new marks a couple of weeks later.
00:32:30They were on the inside of his arms.
00:32:32You know, as though she'd gone like this with him hard.
00:32:36Listen, I felt a bit sorry for her, to tell you the truth.
00:32:39I mean, theirs is a porky little flat and her husband was out all the time.
00:32:43I mean, I don't want anyone thinking I was just sort of going in there and porking me nose in for the hell of it.
00:32:49I just thought I might be able to help the way things were with her.
00:32:52No one suggests, Mrs. Cook, that you were motivated by anything other than compassion.
00:32:56Did you comment on this new outbreak of bruises to Mrs. Fisher?
00:33:01Well, I'd read a bit about how some of these women knocked the kids around.
00:33:05You know, battered babies when things are going bad with them.
00:33:09And so I just said, now, look, love, you needn't be afraid to tell me because I'll help.
00:33:16But have you been hurting the little lad? You know, on purpose.
00:33:21Interfering old cow, she called me and bawled me out and told me not to come back.
00:33:26Anyway, she'd come round later and apologised and she said how everything was going to her down.
00:33:32She couldn't cope with the baby.
00:33:34And she said how that morning his crying had been driving her mad.
00:33:39What did you do?
00:33:40Well, I thought, let's try a bit of psychology.
00:33:44So I said, you know, when my kids was little, I mean, I used to get that upset with her crying sometimes
00:33:51that I'd just pick them up and shake them.
00:33:53I just thought it might make her open up if she felt she wasn't alone.
00:33:59Well, she looked at me and she started crying again and she said,
00:34:05Oh, it's worse than that. I'm worse than you.
00:34:09And just then we had somebody moving around next door.
00:34:12Mr. Fisher had come back and she rushed out.
00:34:15So what else she was going to tell me? I'll never know.
00:34:18She said, oh, it's worse than that. I'm worse than you.
00:34:23Yes.
00:34:24What was the next time you noticed something about Michael's condition?
00:34:28Well, I didn't see anything of her for about a month after that.
00:34:31She was avoiding me, you know.
00:34:33And then she suddenly comes banging on me door one day.
00:34:37She said, the pram's fallen over with him in it.
00:34:41And she was trying to get it out the door.
00:34:43And he seems to be breathing funny and he's gone all dopey.
00:34:48You say the walls of the flats are very thin.
00:34:51Could you hear the noise of the pram falling over?
00:34:53I never heard her sing.
00:34:55And I'll tell you what else. I mean, the hallway and the door, they're that narrow.
00:34:59Drunk couldn't fall over in there, let alone a damn great pram.
00:35:02Did you get a close look at Michael?
00:35:04Oh, yes.
00:35:05Mrs. Fisher tried very hard not to let me, but I wasn't having any of it.
00:35:09And I swear it, he got a bruise the size of an egg on the back of his head.
00:35:15He got some punch mark things on his ribs.
00:35:18He got some more marks on his little backside.
00:35:21What did you do as a result?
00:35:23I got the doctor in for him.
00:35:25And I told him, the doctor, about all the other things I've seen.
00:35:28She never spoke to me after that.
00:35:30Mrs. Cook, coming to the day before Michael's death, was he crying a lot?
00:35:35Yes.
00:35:36Sort of feverish crying.
00:35:38Oh, it just seemed to go on.
00:35:41I would have done something, you know.
00:35:43I mean, phoned the doctor or something.
00:35:45But I thought, well, I've got nothing in the past from interfering, so I left it.
00:35:50When did the crying cease?
00:35:52Well, the last time I heard it was when I woke up in the middle of the night.
00:35:56I'm a light sleeper.
00:35:58Did you hear anything else?
00:35:59Yes.
00:36:00I heard her shouting and banging.
00:36:03As if the cop was being banged against the wall again and again.
00:36:10And then the crying just stopped.
00:36:12Did it stop suddenly?
00:36:14No, it just got weaker and weaker.
00:36:16And then it stopped.
00:36:18Did you hear anything else for the rest of the night or the following day?
00:36:21No.
00:36:22And I wish I hadn't kept my nose out now.
00:36:27Thank you very much, Mrs. Cook.
00:36:32Mrs. Cook, when Mrs. Fisher explained to you that Michael had slipped out of her hands
00:36:37while she was bathing him, was there anything in the appearance or the position of the bruises
00:36:42to suggest otherwise?
00:36:44Well, no.
00:36:45It was just she went such a bright red.
00:36:47Well, don't you think, Mrs. Cook, that any young and inexperienced mother on being pulled up for carelessness
00:36:53by an older and obviously very competent mother might not go bright red out of sheer embarrassment?
00:36:59Hmm.
00:37:00Well, you make it sound all right, I must say.
00:37:02But what about all the other times?
00:37:05Yes, Mrs. Cook, we're coming to those times.
00:37:08Now, on the second occasion you found bruises on Michael,
00:37:11you made an attempt to find out if Mrs. Fisher had been deliberately injuring Michael, did you not?
00:37:16Yes.
00:37:17Would you repeat the exact words you used?
00:37:20Well, I said something like, when my kids was little I used to get that upset with her crying sometimes
00:37:25I'd just pick them up and shake them.
00:37:27And what did Mrs. Fisher reply?
00:37:29She said, it's worse than that, I'm worse than you.
00:37:32Exactly, Mrs. Cook.
00:37:34Not, I have done worse than that, but it's worse than that, meaning it upsets me more than that.
00:37:40And I'm worse than you, meaning I am not fortunate enough to be able to handle a baby as confidently as you.
00:37:47Now, would you agree that Michael did not normally cry a lot?
00:37:51No, not very much.
00:37:53A contented baby, in fact.
00:37:55Well, it beats me why, but yes.
00:37:57It beats you why, Mrs. Cook?
00:38:00Could it not be that despite all his mother's depression, clumsiness and inexperience,
00:38:04Michael was a contented baby because he was loved and cherished?
00:38:08Listen, I'll tell you something, dear.
00:38:13You can love a kid more than anybody's been loved in the history of the world
00:38:17and still want to knock its brains out sometimes.
00:38:20And what's more, you'll do it, if you're a certain kind of person.
00:38:25Very picturesque way of putting it, Mrs. Cook.
00:38:28But it hasn't been demonstrated that Mrs. Fisher was that kind of person.
00:38:33Now, I believe you said that the walls dividing your flat and the fissures are very thin.
00:38:37They're not very satisfactory.
00:38:39And what's more, you're a light sleeper.
00:38:41Yes, fairly light.
00:38:42And during the night that Michael died, you awoke once to hear him crying
00:38:46and heard Mrs. Fisher moving around.
00:38:48Yes.
00:38:49And there were no screams.
00:38:50And I heard the shouting and the banging.
00:38:52But there was nothing in the baby's cries to disturb or alarm you,
00:38:55like screams as he was forcibly and painfully held down.
00:38:59Nothing like that, no.
00:39:01And rather than stopping abruptly, as it would have done if anything sinister had occurred,
00:39:06the crying trailed off gradually.
00:39:08Yes, I said it got weaker and weaker.
00:39:11And that was absolutely the last noise you heard.
00:39:14The sound of Michael's crying gradually trailing off.
00:39:18Yes.
00:39:19Yes.
00:39:20Thank you very much, Mrs. Cook.
00:39:25Gladster.
00:39:26Thank you very much.
00:39:27Dr. Farrell.
00:39:34Dr. Farrell?
00:39:43I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:39:59What is your full name, address, and occupation?
00:40:01Andrew George Baines Farrell, Bothwick House, Roxton, Fulchester. I am in general practice.
00:40:07How long has Rabine Fisher been your registered patient?
00:40:10Since she first came to this district in May 1975.
00:40:14When did you start treating her for postnatal depression?
00:40:17My lord, I do have my patient's notes with me. May I refer to them?
00:40:20Yes, of course.
00:40:23That would be in November 1975, four months after the birth of her first child, Darren.
00:40:28The treatment continued for seven months, during which Darren was transferred into his grandmother's care.
00:40:33Before Darren was taken into his grandmother's care, did you treat him for injuries sustained whilst in Mrs. Fisher's charge at home?
00:40:40Yes, he was brought to me in some distress by Mrs. Fisher, suffering from a broken hand and badly bruised ribs.
00:40:47Did she say how he had sustained those injuries?
00:40:49Yes, she told me that Darren had rolled off her bed, and not being aware of it, she stepped back on his hand and lost her balance and fell awkwardly with her knee across his chest.
00:40:58Did you accept Mrs. Fisher's explanation, or did you question her further about it?
00:41:03I was prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt.
00:41:06The benefit of the doubt, yes.
00:41:08When was Mrs. Fisher's next bout of depression?
00:41:13I started treating her in March 1977, a month after the birth of Michael.
00:41:18Were you also required to treat Michael for injuries?
00:41:21Yes, I was called in on two occasions.
00:41:23The first by Mrs. Fisher, after Michael had sustained a blow to his head when Mrs. Fisher fell with him.
00:41:29And the second time by Mrs. Grace Cook, also involving a blow to the head, plus some superficial bruising to his ribs and the base of his spine.
00:41:36As a result of these two incidents, what did you do?
00:41:39I contacted the local branch of the social services, and they put Mrs. Fisher in twice-weekly contact with a social worker, Ms. Aileen Brace.
00:41:47As a rule, how did you...
00:41:48I would just like to say at this point that I did not necessarily think that Mrs. Fisher had deliberately injured Michael.
00:41:54I certainly did think that both mother and child would benefit from informed and caring supervision.
00:41:59But I must repeat that I was certainly not convinced that both Michael's and Darren's injuries were deliberately inflicted.
00:42:09I'm quite sure that a lot of battering cases go undetected.
00:42:13For every one I see, there are probably five I do not see.
00:42:16But I'm equally sure that a baby like Michael Fisher, with a mother as unhappy and inept as Rabine Fisher, need not necessarily have been the victim of anything but gross clumsiness.
00:42:29You must take each case as you find it and be guided by what you know of the mother.
00:42:33Yes, Doctor, am I right in saying that you felt that Mrs. Fisher was not a battering mother?
00:42:38Exactly.
00:42:39But again, in all fairness, that is all it was, a feeling.
00:42:44You are indeed trying your hardest to be fair, Dr. Farrell.
00:42:48Did you see Mrs. Fisher on the day that Michael's death was discovered?
00:42:54Yes, I was called in by Jeffrey Fisher at five o'clock on that afternoon.
00:42:59I discovered Mrs. Fisher to be in a state of extreme shock, and I arranged for her to spend the night under sedation at St. Andrew's Hospital.
00:43:07A state of extreme shock resulting from the fact that she had just killed her own child?
00:43:12Or by finding Michael already dead in his cot.
00:43:16Yes, Doctor, I was about to say that.
00:43:19But it is quite possible that the state she was in was a result of her having killed her child, and it is possible...
00:43:26Her state was certainly consistent with both of the alternative causes of Michael's death.
00:43:32Again, I would like, if you will allow me, to point out that there is no necessary connection between Michael's injuries and Michael's death, in my opinion.
00:43:43That is to say, even if Mrs. Fisher were the kind of woman who battered her child, she need not necessarily be the kind of woman who would kill her child.
00:43:54But that, of course, is only your opinion.
00:43:57Speaking in a general way, Dr. Farrell, is it possible for post-natal depression to manifest itself in hostility and violence towards a baby?
00:44:05In a general way, yes, although, of course, it doesn't happen all the time.
00:44:10It would depend on the personality of the mother.
00:44:13If she has an aggressive streak that is normally repressed, it would be quite possible for her depression to loosen the grip she has on her aggression.
00:44:22It might only take the stimulus of a child crying for a long period of time for no apparent reason.
00:44:27Very powerful and emotive stimulus.
00:44:29And such a woman might express her frustration and misery by lashing out at the child.
00:44:35And we have already heard that post-natal depression made Rabine Fisher bad-tempered, and that Michael's crying drove her mad.
00:44:43Thank you, Dr. Farrell.
00:44:48Dr. Farrell, in your role as family physician, you've been able to observe Rabine Fisher with a detached professional eye.
00:44:57I would like to think so.
00:44:58And you've been at some pains to point out to the court, as a detached and professional observer, that you do not think Mrs. Fisher could have smothered her baby.
00:45:06No, I said I did not think it at all certain that Mrs. Fisher had deliberately injured Michael, and that that and the act of smothering were in any case not necessarily connected.
00:45:17She could have done one without the other. That's a point.
00:45:20But you do not think that Rabine Fisher has this aggressive streak you mentioned?
00:45:24No, in my opinion, she has rather a passive personality.
00:45:29Who, when frustrated or depressed, would be rather more inclined to revert to tears and inertia.
00:45:35Can we move on to the subject of cot death?
00:45:38In your experience, do respiratory infections, however mild, accompany many such deaths?
00:45:44In my experience, yes. Although, of course, I'm not an expert.
00:45:47And you had treated Michael Fisher for a cold shortly before his death, had you not?
00:45:51Yes, Mrs. Fisher telephoned me three days before his death for advice, as a result of which I made a house visit.
00:45:58Michael did have a cold, but not a serious one.
00:46:01Mrs. Fisher, you say, was in a state of shock when you were called to her following Michael's death.
00:46:06She was.
00:46:07Now, could that shock have set in as soon as she went to Michael's cot and found his body?
00:46:12Yes, of course.
00:46:12Would it be consistent with a state of extreme shock that she should attempt some bizarre and frenzied course of action,
00:46:19such as pummeling the child to wake it and piling blankets and pillows over it to warm it up?
00:46:24Yes, quite consistent.
00:46:26As would her subsequent near-comatose state?
00:46:29Yes.
00:46:30And would she have a lack of grasp on subsequent events?
00:46:34I'm sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
00:46:36Well, would she perhaps not react to events in the normal way?
00:46:40Yes, that's quite possible.
00:46:41You see, we've heard evidence that her husband accused her of murdering her child.
00:46:46Mr. Fisher said to her, you murdering bitch, you've done in the kid.
00:46:51And it's alleged she said, I must have.
00:46:55I would not be particularly impressed by anything she said whilst in that state.
00:46:59She might even be seized with quite irrational guilt at finding him dead
00:47:03and actually believe she did kill him, even if she did not.
00:47:08Thank you very much indeed, Dr. Farrell.
00:47:11Join us again tomorrow when the case of the Queen against Fisher will be concluded
00:47:36in the Crown Court.
00:47:38In the Crown Court.
00:47:38I call the defendant.
00:48:08President Rabin Fisher.
00:48:09Rabin Fisher, the accused, is charged with smothering her nine-month-old son, Michael,
00:48:14while in a state of severe post-natal depression.
00:48:17She has pleaded not guilty.
00:48:18And, of course, she has pleaded not guilty.
00:48:28By the fact that she does not believe she who realizes she could win anything.
00:48:31She was already a high- Х geschوج in one hour, after her Windsor's a Subdesk woman.
00:48:36take the book in your right hand read it out the words on the card
00:48:55I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give
00:49:00shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:49:03Mrs. Fisher I know this is very painful for you but would you tell us of the
00:49:11sequence of events leading up to Michael's death
00:49:14when? Mrs. Fisher you're going to have to speak much louder than that so that we
00:49:24can all hear you yes sorry all right
00:49:30where should I start? well again from the Thursday morning your husband left for his
00:49:40two-day driving job now Michael was ill wasn't he? yes yes he had a cold sniffles I'd had to get the
00:49:53doctor to him and he still wasn't right he was very you know grizzly so in the
00:50:04afternoon I had him in the front room for a bit but he didn't seem to want to play
00:50:11so then I put him down you know in his cot I thought he might doze off for a bit but he
00:50:21went on grizzling and I brought him back into the front room and propped him up so
00:50:29he could watch me what did you prop him on? I wrapped him in his cock blankets and I
00:50:37laid him on the seat of the armchair was that all you did? sorry it's hard to remember everything I
00:50:48did in the right order I got the little pillow from the pram and you know put it behind his head
00:50:55and neck because the armchair seat it it slopes back a bit you know inside the blankets
00:51:05did you put the pillow inside the blankets? yes I tucked it in did Michael stay awake for long? oh yes
00:51:16ages and ages he didn't want his tea or anything I had to keep going to him and every time I went away
00:51:25you know how it is he'd start crying so then I thought well he's tired out perhaps if I go into
00:51:35the kitchen and wait he might cry himself out and drop off to sleep so that's what I did what time does he drop
00:51:44off eventually? about seven o'clock I suppose he went quiet and I waited for about 10 minutes until he was completely
00:51:57asleep and then I went back into him
00:52:03he was fast asleep so I picked him up and I put him in his cock
00:52:10I'm sorry I was just thinking of him asleep
00:52:20do you feel able to go on now mrs fisher?
00:52:30yes I'm all right now
00:52:31and when you picked Michael up did you take him out of the blankets?
00:52:38no I picked up the holo I think yes I did
00:52:42why was that?
00:52:44well I thought it might disturb him if I got him out the blankets
00:52:49so I just bundled him into bed like he'd been in the armchair
00:52:53so the pillow was still under his head when you put him down in the cot
00:52:58it was sort of tucked inside the blankets yes
00:53:02I just didn't think very much about it being there you know
00:53:07I just wanted to disturb him as little as I possibly could
00:53:19can you go on now mrs fisher
00:53:25did Michael wake in the night at all?
00:53:26I still find it very difficult to hear a lot of what you're saying mrs fisher
00:53:35please try and speak out so the jury and the whole of the court can hear
00:53:42once he woke up once that I know of
00:53:47sometime just before daybreak
00:53:49I've taken this pill this sleeping pill so I wasn't sure what time it was
00:53:59four five something
00:54:02I heard him crying
00:54:04and you went to him?
00:54:06I suppose so
00:54:08can't you see I can't remember very well this pill I'd taken
00:54:14you know how you dream things you think you've done something and you haven't really or you
00:54:19have done something and you think it's while you're dreaming but it isn't
00:54:22what do you think you did?
00:54:24I don't know
00:54:30I must have taken his nappy and his nightie off
00:54:34I think I took them off because he was wet
00:54:38yeah that's right and there wasn't another one another nappy so I left him in his vest
00:54:44did you move the pillow and the blankets?
00:54:46yeah I must have done
00:54:48moved it to one side or something
00:54:51yes I would have had to to take off his nappy
00:54:58it was all dark
00:55:01and I could remember standing over the cot sort of
00:55:04half swaying half asleep
00:55:11I wanted him to shut up because I wanted to go on sleeping and he kept on crying
00:55:17so I put my hands on the bars of the cot and I shoved it and shoved it against the wall and
00:55:23shouting for him to shut up but I didn't do it I didn't get it never I wouldn't he was my baby
00:55:34could you bring a glass of water
00:55:35would you like to sit down Mrs. Fisher
00:55:48do you feel you can go on now Mrs. Fisher
00:56:09was Michael still crying when he went back to bed
00:56:12yes
00:56:19he went on for a bit
00:56:21and then he drifted off to sleep
00:56:25and so did I
00:56:28what time did you wake in the morning
00:56:31about six o'clock it was
00:56:33I woke up because it was all so quiet
00:56:39you know how you can be woken by a silence
00:56:44Michael he should have been crying for his feet
00:56:48or sometimes he'd lie in his cot and make cooing noises
00:56:53but there was nothing
00:56:55what did you do
00:56:56I went into him I tried to wake him but I couldn't
00:57:04what did you do in order to get him awake
00:57:07well first I sort of pushed at him and then I pinched him
00:57:15I thought it would hurt him and make him cry
00:57:18I thought he must be sleeping deep because he'd been ill the day before
00:57:22I don't know what I did then if I picked him up or not
00:57:27I knew that half of me suddenly knew what was the matter and there was another half of me
00:57:30that kept on doing other things
00:57:33I shook him and shook him I couldn't believe it was happening
00:57:37I thought if I could blow some air into his lungs I could make him come back because he was still warm
00:57:42so I started blowing air into his lungs I went on for ages and ages but it didn't make any difference
00:57:50I thought if he was still warm he couldn't have been dead
00:57:56I remember thinking as long as I keep him warm it'll be all right
00:58:00how did you try to keep him warm
00:58:03I picked him up with blankets around him and I tried to rub him with the blankets
00:58:09it sounds stupid but that's what I did
00:58:16and then what did you do
00:58:18well then I put him back in his cup
00:58:21and I remember thinking I had to phone the doctor
00:58:25and then I got this phrase running through my mind you know the thing the doctor always says to you
00:58:30when you phone him up he says keep him warm and well wrapped up
00:58:34I thought that's what I had to do
00:58:35so I put some blankets on him
00:58:42you know how you think these things when you're in a dream
00:58:46what did you do with the pillow
00:58:49I used that to cover him too
00:58:51I thought it would be warm like the blankets
00:58:55and then what happened
00:58:56and then I went into the front room and waited for the doctor to come
00:59:02just a moment you phoned for the doctor
00:59:07no I couldn't have
00:59:10but I thought I had so I went in the front room and waited
00:59:15how long did you wait
00:59:23I don't know
00:59:25all day I suppose and all night and part of the next day too
00:59:32that's what people have said
00:59:35but I didn't know at the time
00:59:37do you remember your husband coming home
00:59:42not very well
00:59:44he was just suddenly there
00:59:46do you remember him saying
00:59:48you murdering bitch you've done in the kid haven't you
00:59:53he said something but I couldn't really make out what he was saying
00:59:58you couldn't understand you mean
00:59:59well I knew he was telling me something about Michael but
01:00:04I didn't really know what was happening
01:00:07and when you replied I must have
01:00:10you didn't know what was happening either
01:00:13I couldn't work out why it was suddenly there like that
01:00:18I knew something awful had happened but I couldn't remember what it was
01:00:24and when he said that about me murdering Michael
01:00:30I thought that was the thing
01:00:33the awful thing that had happened
01:00:35but as you recovered from the shock of Michael's death over the following weeks
01:00:40did you begin to remember what had really happened
01:00:46mrs fisher did you begin to remember what really had happened
01:00:52yes I remember most of it now
01:00:55mrs fisher when you had darren and then michael with you
01:01:01did you try to look after them to the best of your ability
01:01:04oh yes
01:01:06did you on any occasion deliberately injure either of them
01:01:10oh no I wouldn't have done that
01:01:14had dr farrell prescribed any drugs for your depressive illness
01:01:17yes I was on tranquilizers and what effect did these drugs have on you
01:01:25well I don't know whether it was the drugs or the depression itself but I felt very slow and
01:01:31I kept knocking things over spilling pans that that kind of thing
01:01:37were you feeling like that when the accidents happened to darren and michael
01:01:41yes I was
01:01:42yes I was
01:01:43now let's go back to the day darren had his accident
01:01:46will you tell us how it happened
01:01:51he fell off the bed
01:01:52our bed our bed and I didn't see him and sort of step back on him and fell
01:02:00I know I told my husband something else at first
01:02:04I was frightened
01:02:06you see he always used to go on at me about putting darren on our bed he said darren made
01:02:11the bed cover dirty you know what with his nappy and bringing up his feet a bit and everything
01:02:15so when the accident happened I pretended he'd fallen out of his car
01:02:23I know it was a lie
01:02:26did your husband find it easy to get used to darren
01:02:30well he did try but you see
01:02:33i'd known jet
01:02:35mr fisher for a long time before we were married
01:02:39he was just a friend but we were very fond of each other
01:02:42and then I got pregnant with darren by another boy
01:02:47well the other boy didn't want to know so jeff asked me to marry him and said he'd bring the baby up as his own
01:02:54well he did try but me being so depressed and everything we just started having trouble about it
01:03:01terrible rouse
01:03:03so was there any connection between darren's accident and the fact that he went to your mother
01:03:08well jeff did use that when he tried to persuade me but it wasn't the main thing
01:03:13is it true that you said if i'd known i was going to have him taken away from me i'd have got rid of him while
01:03:20i had the chance yeah but not in the way he meant what was the way you meant having an abortion i would have done that
01:03:27now mrs fisher bringing the story up to date you see quite a lot of darren at the moment don't you
01:03:37yes i've moved back in with my mum and with your mother's help you're looking after him
01:03:43yes i'd like to have him back with me you know when this is over have you been having medical treatment
01:03:55since michael's death yes well i had to stay in the hospital for two weeks after it happened because
01:04:02you know i wasn't right in my mind and then when i moved back in with my mum i started having
01:04:09psychiatric treatment as an outpatient for my you know the depression and you're getting better
01:04:18well i still feel down a lot of the time but
01:04:24yes i'm getting better with darren there and everything it helps me being with him thank you very
01:04:34much mrs fisher mrs fisher you can now remember the events surrounding michael's death can you
01:04:44most of them yes then i wonder why it is that your memory is so conveniently hazy about what happened
01:04:52when you awoke in the night to hear michael crying i was sleepy i can remember being sleepy ah yes you said
01:05:01i have your words here you know how you dream things you think you've done something and you
01:05:08haven't really or you have done something and you think it's while you're dreaming but it isn't
01:05:17you have done something and you think it's while you're dreaming but it isn't do you think you can get
01:05:22me to say that i did it how did i in my sleep did i i told the truth i said what happened is best i can
01:05:32remember it but you you're trying to make out with all lies well isn't it no i'm not a liar
01:05:39i know i'm bad you all think i'm bad but i'm not a lawyer mrs fisher you have already admitted to
01:05:52this court that you tell lies don't you remember telling us about your other baby darren's accident
01:06:01don't you remember telling us how you lied on that occasion to your husband
01:06:05i put it to you mrs fisher if you are capable of lying to your husband simply to save your face
01:06:10are you not allowed lying to this court when so much more depends on it
01:06:28miss brace when did your contact with mrs fisher start
01:06:32i was assigned to her case after dr farrell had contacted our department so it was two days after
01:06:38michael's accident with the pram how much did you see of her thereafter well i arranged to visit
01:06:43her regularly twice a week well of course she was welcome to get in touch with me at any time
01:06:48and she often did when you first met her what was rabine fisher like as a mother well i had no
01:06:55doubts at all about her her affection for michael well some women when they're depressed they they
01:07:02go cold on their babies well that didn't happen with her in what way did depression affect her
01:07:08well the flat and the baby were pretty filthy but how significant was that oh my goodness michael
01:07:14wasn't any worse cared for than any number of babies i've had on my casebook well he certainly could
01:07:20have done with a better standard of treatment of the one he was getting but that was to be expected
01:07:24in that kind of case oh yes i mean mrs fisher she was trying to cope under tremendous difficulties
01:07:32she was terribly depressed she was living in a pretty nasty council block flat she hardly saw her
01:07:39husband from one day to the next and her mother lives some 20 miles away she had no friends she had
01:07:47no one she could turn to for advice oh unless you count mrs cook whose attitude seems to be pretty
01:07:52aggressive and invariably critical well she didn't even have anyone she could go and moan to if things
01:07:58got bad did you notice any improvement in mrs fisher after your visits began oh yes well i mean nothing
01:08:06startling well that takes months not days or weeks no she really was beginning to take a more
01:08:12positive approach in what way well she'd begun to contact me on her own initiative if she was worried
01:08:18about michael or needed advice she wanted to know what sort of foods would be good for the baby
01:08:25seemed he'd been living on bread and jam mainly and she also wanted advice about his crying
01:08:30i told her that he might enjoy sitting propped up in the afternoon with a pillow so he could watch
01:08:37her in instead of lying bored in his cot how about her depression did that seem to improve yes as i said
01:08:45she was certainly becoming more positive well a severely depressed woman wouldn't have summoned up
01:08:51the energy to contact me voluntarily well as i said it wasn't a startling improvement but it was
01:08:57definitely there now you saw mrs fisher three days before michael's death did you not yes what sort
01:09:03of frame of mind was she in then better than i'd ever seen her she said that now she had sorted out why
01:09:10michael sometimes cried or he was bored that sort of thing she felt much more able to cope she didn't
01:09:17feel so frustrated anymore thank you very much miss brace
01:09:25miss brace how long before michael's death was it that you've known mrs fisher six weeks six weeks and
01:09:36you normally saw her what twice a week yes so you wouldn't deny that her character and her moods were
01:09:43far less familiar to you than say her husband well that depends on how far back you want to go
01:09:50i would say that in the last six weeks of michael's life i was far better qualified to assess mrs fisher's
01:09:55moods because her husband was hardly ever there miss brace you give every appearance of someone who is
01:10:02very uh involved with her job am i right oh yes of course i am social workers have to be so what i'd imagine
01:10:10who gets very involved with the people in her care hmm well that depends too on what you mean by
01:10:17involved if you mean i do my best for them and i help them try and make a go of their lives well yes
01:10:24i do i do get involved if you mean i get so caught up in their own problems that i cease to be impartial
01:10:32no i don't ask any social worker and they'll tell you if you get that involved you'd go daft
01:10:38thank you miss braise the offense of infanticide members of the jury was introduced because it
01:10:45became well known that some women do suffer severe mental disturbance after the birth of a child
01:10:52and it was considered inappropriate to charge a woman with murder who had killed her child while the
01:10:59balance of her mind was so disturbed now it is accepted by the prosecution that the accused is a
01:11:06woman who did experience this well-recognized state which the doctors call postnatal depression
01:11:14so there is no charge of murder it is a charge of infanticide and a conviction for infanticide is
01:11:22simply a conviction of manslaughter no more so the whole question in this case is whether the child did
01:11:31die of natural causes whether this was a cot death or whether the accused deliberately smothered the
01:11:40child the burden of proof in this case is the same as in any other case the accused is innocent until
01:11:49proved guilty and unless on the evidence you feel satisfied that the accused did kill the child
01:11:55it your verdict must be one of not guilty now will you please retire elect a foreman to speak for you
01:12:04and consider your verdict all set
01:12:12foreman please stand answer the question yes or no have you reached a verdict upon which you are all
01:12:18agreed yes do you find the accused guilty or not guilty not guilty very well mrs fisher you are free to
01:12:27go you obviously need all the help that you can get miss brace you're still visiting mrs fisher are you yes my
01:12:35lord good i must say it seems to me a great pity that he didn't get help at an earlier stage all stand
01:12:48so
01:13:10so
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