- 6/22/2025
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00:00E-C-W, E-C-W, E-C-W, E-C-W, E-C-W.
00:10Extreme Championship Wrestling was a group of outlaws who spurred a revolution.
00:15The course of professional wrestling history has been altered permanently.
00:21From Sabu to Rob Van Dam to Shane Douglas, Raven, and so many more.
00:27These rebels brought it to the extreme.
00:29That's the way we are.
00:31This is what extreme is.
00:33That is the E-C-W we all know.
00:37But here, today, are the untold stories never heard before.
00:43There was a lot of insight.
00:46Can I just finish my E-C-W?
00:49You saw how hardcore they were in the ring.
00:52But coming up, we hear the extreme lengths this band of brothers went to.
00:56It wasn't all rainbows and butterflies in that locker room, bro.
00:59As they attempted to stay afloat to try and keep the revolution alive.
01:04There's two kinds of people in the wrestling business.
01:06Those who are jealous that they weren't in E-C-W, and those who are really effing jealous.
01:11This is the authentic untold story of E-C-W.
01:15Hello, WWE Universe, and welcome to the authentic untold story of E-C-W.
01:24I'm Corey Graves, and now, while the history of E-C-W has been pretty well documented,
01:28it's undeniable that no single wrestling company has ever had quite the same effect on our business
01:34as the South Philadelphia-based Extreme Championship Wrestling.
01:38Now, today, we've assembled a who's who of the most influential figures in E-C-W's rise to success
01:44and the history that you may or may not know.
01:47Lucky for you, the entire E-C-W catalog is available right now on demand only on WWE Network.
01:54You can check that out as soon as possible.
01:56But today, let's get right down to it.
01:58I'd like to start off by introducing my first guest, the mastermind behind the mayhem,
02:04none other than Paul Heyman.
02:06Mr. Heyman, thank you for joining us.
02:08Thank you, sir.
02:09Let's start right at the very, very beginning.
02:11I grew up in Pittsburgh.
02:12I was within proximity to Philadelphia, and I'm a big wrestling fan.
02:15I read all the magazines, and I remember hearing this buzz about E-C-W.
02:20Where did it all begin?
02:22Well, it all began in South Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
02:24where Todd Gordon picked up from the ashes of the Tri-State Wrestling Federation
02:32that was run by a radio host named Joel Goodhart.
02:35And Todd started Eastern Championship Wrestling, and Todd needed someone to take the reins of creative
02:43and gave me the opportunity to step in and become the head of creative for Eastern Championship Wrestling.
02:51Walk me through that genesis from the beginning.
02:52When did Eastern Championship Wrestling start to become Extreme Championship Wrestling?
02:56The design from the day I took over creative was to change the name to Extreme.
03:01I felt that it was a perfect branding opportunity to set us up to be different from everybody else.
03:11I also deeply, deeply despised the name Eastern.
03:17It was regional, and I had no desire ever to stay regional.
03:23There was WWE, there was WCW, and I wanted it to be ECW.
03:27And once you call yourself Eastern, you're pigeonholed.
03:31And I felt that with the emergence of hip-hop, that there was a cultural shift in the United States, let alone in the entire world,
03:41that Nirvana had come in and smashed all the conventions in music.
03:45And this revolution of sorts was not just contained to the music industry, but was a complete pop culture and indeed culture expansion.
03:57So I thought a more realistic-based, a more, quote-unquote, hardcore product was the way to go.
04:05So the very first match that I presented in ECW, Eastern Championship Wrestling, in September 1993 was the public enemy coming out to the ring and bloodying their opponents into oblivion and then beating them and shocking people.
04:26Because who else would open a wrestling show, which was always, the first match was always, hey, we'll get them off their feet, we'll do a little dancing, we'll wave to the crowd, we'll say something funny.
04:39And we just came out of the box and smashed them right in the face.
04:44I wanted to set the record straight.
04:46This was a new era.
04:47This was a new direction.
04:49This was a new vision.
04:50And we were coming in, quote-unquote, balls out.
04:53You mentioned the music, and ECW is kind of known for the music.
04:57You're still an upstart company.
04:58How do you afford the music rights to bands like Metallica and all these legendary songs that are synonymous with the ECW superstars?
05:06We didn't pay for it.
05:08So you were just pirating the music?
05:09Absolutely.
05:11So you're on pay-per-view, you're building a national television branch, and you're just pirating music.
05:15Well, it's actually the concept that then UFC stole from me, which is, I used it as ambient music on the pay-per-view telecast, because if there's not a direct feed, there's a different royalty that you have to pay.
05:28So you found a loophole.
05:29Yeah, absolutely found a loophole.
05:31Brilliant.
05:32Listen, it's one thing to romanticize, oh, they were outlaws, they were wild, they were crazy.
05:41Yes, we were outlaws.
05:44That's what it takes to come up against two billionaires.
05:48We had no resources besides our balls and our wits, because we certainly didn't have any financing.
05:56Now, you have this new concept, and it started to sort of roll.
06:01How do you grow it?
06:03How do you take extreme championship wrestling to the next level?
06:06Just the word of mouth started getting around, and our TV show in Philadelphia caught fire, because obviously no one at Sports Channel Philadelphia was paying attention to what we were doing,
06:18because the product that we were putting on Tuesday nights at dinnertime in a major market like Philadelphia was what we now call today TVMA.
06:32Absolutely television for mature audiences.
06:36To put us on at dinnertime at 6 p.m. in Philadelphia just gave us license to create this buzz, and obviously it was that target demographic that started watching, saying,
06:52are you aware of what's on television at this hour?
06:57You've got to watch this stuff.
06:59It's extreme.
07:01It's today TVMA.
07:04So that said, how does ECW go to the next level?
07:07I was slowly taking over the entire company on a business end, on a financial responsibility end,
07:16and the first real investors besides Todd Gordon were my parents, who ultimately, through a series of investments in the company, put in a total of $4 million.
07:28Okay, so you can only borrow from your parents or friends or small businesses for so long before you actually have to have some real serious revenue.
07:36You don't have pay-per-view.
07:37You don't have national television.
07:39Well, we couldn't get on pay-per-view.
07:40You see, now pay-per-view would have changed the entire history of this industry had we got on in 1995, which was the goal.
07:50At the same time that we were coming up and gaining all this momentum, UFC, which started, by the way, the very same month, September 1993, that I took over the creative for ECW.
08:04And UFC, because they had attracted the attention of Senator John McCain, who called it human cockfighting, and all the pay-per-view companies and distributors ran away from UFC.
08:25So when we went to get pay-per-view distribution, we were confused with extreme fighting, and we were told we don't put mixed martial arts on pay-per-view television.
08:38We're not allowed.
08:39Well, we're not mixed martial arts.
08:40We're professional wrestling, which became, you know, sports entertainment.
08:44We're just like WWE and WCW, except we're far more realistic, and no one would even consider it.
08:52Well, you eventually made it to pay-per-view, so how did you get around that?
08:56You, Pinero, of Request TV, took the risk and said, okay, you know what?
09:02I've seen enough of your momentum.
09:04I have felt enough of your audience's passion.
09:07I think there's enough momentum here that you can sell some pay-per-view numbers.
09:12I'll put you on.
09:13I'll give you distribution.
09:15I'll give you a chance.
09:16And he signed on, and once those numbers came in, then Viewer's Choice became interested.
09:21Then DirecTV became interested.
09:23And then all the other distribution channels of pay-per-view were willing to put us on.
09:30Okay, so now you're a financially successful company, Extreme Championship Wrestling is,
09:35and you yourself said when it came to pay-per-view, there were only two games in town, WCW, WWE.
09:40Did you get any attention from those two groups once you started making the waves?
09:43A relationship with WWE came in in 1996 because Vince McMahon had heard enough of the ECW chants
09:50in Philadelphia at the King of the Ring and said, okay, what is Heyman doing there?
09:55Why is there an ECW chant at my show?
09:58And he didn't have my phone number anymore, and he turned to Bruce Prichard, who did,
10:02and said, Bruce, set up a meeting with me and Heyman.
10:05I want to see what he has in mind.
10:07Did it keep blossoming into something?
10:09It was a series of one-offs.
10:11It just kept on being mutually beneficial opportunities for WWE and for ECW to get along
10:18and co-promote because at the time, they were not winning the Monday Night Wars.
10:23So any attention that WWE could get was welcomed by Vince McMahon,
10:28and any national exposure that ECW could get was cherished by Paul Heyman.
10:33Were you, Paul Heyman, ever on the payroll to WWE while ECW was in business?
10:37No, I never took a check from WWE in the entire time ECW was in business,
10:43and I certainly never got paid by WWE, nor was I willing to be paid by WWE.
10:48The one time I was going to be paid by WWE was when they wanted me to then become the co-host of Shotgun Saturday Night,
10:58and in the discussions, which had gotten rather heated at times,
11:04I finally said, okay, if you do this, I'll do that,
11:08and I absolutely positively reneged on the deal at the last second and no-showed the event.
11:15And the reason why I no-showed the event was that everything that I did was about ECW,
11:21and when it came time for me to get on the plane to go co-host Shotgun Saturday Night,
11:28I couldn't self-justify it.
11:30If you cared so deeply about ECW, the seduction of the bright lights, as you say, had to look pretty good.
11:36How were you financing things at this point?
11:38I mean, did you have anybody else helping you out, any other?
11:40The other, which is a story that has never been told, hence the name The Authentic Untold Story of ECW,
11:47was that we almost had a 49% interest purchased by and pay-per-view distribution handled by Disney.
11:59Disney?
12:00Disney.
12:01Mickey Mouse Disney, the ECW.
12:03Yes, the Walt Disney Corporation.
12:05And this was a very real discussion and a very serious discussion that moved up very, very, very fast
12:13to where Disney was going to buy 49% of ECW through this new subsidiary that they were going to run in paid television
12:22and become our pay-per-view distributor, which would mean they'd have no problem collecting on the pay-per-view debt.
12:29And it got all the way up to, I think, the vice chairman, who at the last second just said,
12:37not this product.
12:41Now, just a little too non-Disney for Disney, but my God, were we close.
12:47So ultimately, all the time you spent building this company, ECW, you had some help.
12:52You had some buddies in the trenches with you.
12:54Oh, absolutely.
12:55Well, we have a couple of them here.
12:56You were going to meet one of Paul Heyman's brothers in the trenches, and I promise you,
13:00you will probably be as shocked as I was to find out exactly who he was.
13:04ECW!
13:05ECW!
13:06From Dudleyville, weighing in at 350 pounds,
13:13Bubba Ray Dudley!
13:20Bubba Ball!
13:23Unbelievable!
13:24Stag table has been set ablaze!
13:28Bubba Ray Dudley is a man present!
13:32The toughest, the modest, the best in the basement!
13:38Joining us at this time, you probably recognize as one half of the most dominant and decorated tag teams
13:44in sports entertainment history.
13:46He also happens to be one of the most influential stars in ECW, Bubba Ray Dudley.
13:50Corey, how are you?
13:51I'm well, thank you.
13:53So, I fancy myself a big ECW fan.
13:56I loved it growing up.
13:57I studied it.
13:57I was completely shocked when I was doing the research and got the notes for today
14:01about just how much you had to do with ECW behind the scenes.
14:05I kind of put it as this.
14:07Everything that has to go on with a wrestling show outside of the actual show in ring and the merchandise,
14:15I'm the guy that handled that.
14:16How were you able to do that?
14:17What background did you have to be able to step into that role?
14:20It's a pretty significant role.
14:21A very significant background of absolutely nothing.
14:25Yeah.
14:25No background in what's wrong.
14:27I mean, you know, my family was my background.
14:29My family was always in business.
14:31They were in oil.
14:32They were in restaurants.
14:33So, I watched my mom and my dad.
14:35I had watched my aunts and my uncles and how I grew up in my family business
14:40and kind of just took the ball and ran with it when Paul handed it to me.
14:44I can't be the only one kind of shocked by the dichotomy of Bubba Ray Dudley in the ring
14:48and Bubba Ray Dudley the businessman.
14:50I can't imagine when you call a town to book a building, you start the phone call with,
14:55hello, this is Bubba Ray Dudley from ECW.
14:57Yeah, that didn't happen.
14:59Otherwise, it would have hung up pretty quickly.
15:00No, I would use my real name, Mark.
15:02And the most shocking part for the people that ran the buildings,
15:07whether it was the merchandise stand or the concessions or the directors of the building,
15:11was at the end of the night, I would have to go settle up business with them.
15:15They would have to give me all the money from the box office.
15:17We'd have to count the tickets together.
15:19Whatever business of the wrestling business had to be done.
15:22Now, in the ring, the Dudleys were normally on last.
15:27So, I would normally go to the box office to do the settlement,
15:30and I'd be covered in blood.
15:32I'd be covered in sweat.
15:34I'd be covered in all sorts of body fluids from that night.
15:38And just to see the shock on the people's faces going,
15:41wait a minute, you're the same person?
15:43You're Mark that we met earlier,
15:46and you're this wrestler who just destroyed our place?
15:49And by the way, here's a bill for $5,000 for everything you just destroyed?
15:53So, you know, that was always interesting.
15:55So, we all know Titan Tower, the famous headquarters of WWE.
15:59Where were the headquarters of ECW at this time?
16:01We didn't have a set office.
16:03We just did business wherever we could do it at the time.
16:06I'd have to drive about an hour from my home in Long Island to New York City
16:11to go meet him at our favorite sushi restaurant.
16:14And then, you know, we would talk about what we'd want to get done,
16:16and then he would cut me the checks.
16:18And then I would go back and, you know, pay all the necessary advertisers.
16:23So, keeping up with him and keeping his schedule was a challenge.
16:28You said you did a lot of your business driving on the road.
16:31Is there any particular memories you have or any ideas or situations that came about
16:35off the top of your heads in those car rides or random situations?
16:39We always had interesting car rides.
16:42You know, we talked about wrestling 24-7.
16:44We talked about, you know, moving ECW forward.
16:47And, you know, this idea would be great.
16:49Or what if we tried this?
16:50It was just constantly talking about ECW and how we could continue the movement
16:56to revolutionize wrestling and do what we were doing.
17:00Because I just equate it to kind of like the Sex Pistols and the Ramones.
17:03We were so underground but so influential.
17:07And, you know, to this day, and I've said it a million times,
17:11if it wasn't for the attitude that we had in ECW,
17:18WWE would never have gotten extreme.
17:22So, in doing my research, I uncovered a little bit of a gem,
17:25a story regarding FedEx.
17:28Well, where did you get that?
17:30Because you didn't get that from Google.
17:31I didn't get the full story.
17:32I just heard rumblings.
17:33So, you heard from somebody who knows somebody?
17:36It's locker room talk, all right?
17:37Oh.
17:38So, that means the truth has been stretched.
17:40Very, very, very possibly.
17:41Telephone, telegraph, telewrestler.
17:43That's right.
17:44Is this question directed at him?
17:45Because I have a lot of FedEx stories.
17:48He has a famous one.
17:50There is a V in FedEx.
17:51He has the one.
17:52See, one of my toughest jobs was trying to corral him
17:54and try to make sure that everything that he was telling me
17:58was exactly the way it was supposed to be.
18:01So, one time, I needed a check for like Time Warner Cable
18:05because we were running shows in New York
18:06and I was like, Paul, we're getting down to the wire.
18:08They're not going to play the commercials unless I get the check.
18:10I need the check.
18:12Bubba, I wrote the check and I sent it out to you.
18:14I go, you already sent it out?
18:15He goes, yes, via FedEx.
18:16I said, I'm trying to one-up him now.
18:18I'm like, fine, what's the tracking number?
18:21And he goes, the tracking number is 4-3-4-8-7-2-1-9-5.
18:30I said, Paul, that's one too many numbers.
18:34He said, just knock off the last number.
18:38The check was not in the mail.
18:41We did get the check eventually.
18:42We paid Time Warner Cable and all went good.
18:44But that is the infamous FedEx story.
18:46Were there any real more close calls like that as far as you...
18:51Every day was a close call.
18:52You were always working at this frenetic pace of,
18:55we've got to do it now, we've got to do it now.
18:57Did Paul do this? Can we do this?
18:59It was always just white knuckle at all times.
19:03But that's what made it so much fun.
19:05You never knew what was going to happen.
19:07It was always interesting.
19:08I mean, you know, we did 20 years of work in the course of seven years.
19:12We were always understaffed.
19:15We were always underfinanced.
19:16We were always overwhelmed.
19:18But we were truly causing a revolution in this industry.
19:24And it was 24-7.
19:26We didn't have wives.
19:28We didn't have children.
19:29We had ECW.
19:31So let me ask you this.
19:32Corey, you're a wrestling fan.
19:34Yes, sir.
19:34Were you a WWE fan as a kid?
19:37Yes.
19:38Were you an ECW fan as you got older?
19:40Yes.
19:41As a wrestling fan, honestly, do you think ECW changed wrestling?
19:45Absolutely.
19:46There you go.
19:46And it was the way we didn't have a nice, beautiful office.
19:50We didn't have a set schedule.
19:51We didn't have a water cooler.
19:53All we had was each other and wherever we could do business at the time.
19:57And that was it.
19:59There's two kinds of people in the wrestling business.
20:01Those who are jealous that they weren't in ECW.
20:04And those who are really effing jealous that they weren't in ECW.
20:07And that's the bottom line.
20:08Paul, you were leading the movement.
20:10Bubba, you were doing your best to schedule the movement.
20:13You also had a little bit more help.
20:15ECW!
20:15ECW!
20:17TAS!
20:18TAS!
20:19TAS!
20:20TAS!
20:21TAS!
20:22No one is more extreme than the TAS Maniac.
20:26Oh, Suplex!
20:28This is Suplex by the TAS Maniac.
20:30The human Suplex machine.
20:33And the TAS Maniac is ECW.
20:37Hardcore for Spotify.
20:40Survive.
20:42If I let you.
20:43Joining us at this time for the first time in over seven long years, he's an ECW original.
20:53You may remember him as the human Suplex machine.
20:56Please welcome TAS.
20:58Thanks, Corey.
20:59I appreciate it.
21:00Welcome back.
21:00Thank you, buddy.
21:01I appreciate it.
21:01Nice to meet you.
21:03Likewise.
21:03Likewise.
21:05I've mentioned quite a few times.
21:07I was a big fan of ECW.
21:08In particular, I was a TAS fan.
21:11And I know most of the WWE universe remembers you from your work in WWE and ECW.
21:17Were you only on the talent end of ECW in ring?
21:21Or did you also do things behind the scenes like Bubba?
21:23I wish I was only on the talent end of ECW.
21:27Because my life would have been simpler.
21:29I kid.
21:30No, I was not just on the talent end.
21:32Like many of us, we had to wear many hats because of the lack of resources.
21:36And because, I think Bubba hit on this earlier, the pure amount of passion that we had to make this thing work.
21:45Because, you know, no one believed in it.
21:48And Paul was awesome at pissing us off.
21:52And what I mean by that is through motivation, reminding us that many of us were not shunned.
21:59We were not wanted.
22:00And Paul would remind some of us that before certain shows to motivate.
22:06He did it with me almost every show.
22:08He was in my face motivating me.
22:09And it worked.
22:10And it made TAS become the human effing suplex killing machine.
22:15You know, and hold on.
22:17So the thing is, for me, as a guy who was all about wrestling and all about what I did out there as a performer,
22:23I had that same passion as someone behind the scenes to help in whatever role that was.
22:28So my role was to help basically run the dojo, the ECW Wrestling School,
22:33which that was my main role outside of being a wrestler, was running that school.
22:36And that school wasn't just a wrestling school.
22:38So it was a great place.
22:40Yeah, but you did design merchandise.
22:41You did all the merchandise for us.
22:42Yeah, I did the merchandise too.
22:44That's true.
22:45Did you have a background in graphic design or anything?
22:48No, I kind of just had a knack.
22:50Paul knew I had a little bit of a knack, like a creative knack.
22:52And I had no graphic design background, nothing like that.
22:56No matter who it was, whatever characters it was, I would try and just go to the boys,
23:00go to the talent as a wrestler.
23:02And there was that connectivity that I could have to them and go up to them and talk to them anytime I want.
23:06And say, listen, bro, I'm trying to put a shirt together.
23:08Like most things in an enterprise that was designed like ECW to be a disruptor,
23:14to be a revolutionary force, there was ulterior motives in the school.
23:18Number one, it gave Taz ownership of something.
23:21Brand it your own.
23:22This is yours.
23:23This is for you to handle, for you to nurture, for you to build.
23:28This is yours.
23:29Don't you understand?
23:31This is not mine.
23:31This may have the ECW brand on it.
23:34We may assume liability on it for insurance purposes, but it's yours.
23:38It's yours.
23:39It's your baby.
23:40Make it grow.
23:41That's exactly what he said.
23:42You know?
23:42That's exactly, don't BS.
23:44That's exactly what he said.
23:45And he says, what if we don't have one successful student?
23:49I don't care.
23:50Why don't you care?
23:51Don't you care about it?
23:53Yes, I do.
23:54Because I care that this is something for you.
23:56We found this building, which was a warehouse, through Bubba's family.
23:59He helped us out.
24:00We knew a guy, cement guy, and we got the building.
24:03Easy, easy, easy, easy.
24:04And that's a true story.
24:06You know the deal.
24:07You used to pay rent.
24:08I used to tell you, bro, if you don't pay the rent, we're going to have a problem.
24:12And I'm the guy who's going to be swimming along on the bottom of frickin' Jones Beach.
24:18So pay the rent, Paul.
24:20You know?
24:21But anyway, the building.
24:22The tracking number is 3, 2, 4, 8.
24:26On the top of your head, who are some of the more notable names that have come through the
24:29House of Hardcore?
24:30None.
24:30Really.
24:31To be honest with you, absolutely none.
24:34Because there's a story behind that, please.
24:36I mean, yeah, really, I don't know who I trained that's famous.
24:41None.
24:41We have the WWE Network, so you can go back and watch anybody through ECW.
24:45I will say this.
24:47I'll give credit where the credits do.
24:50And I've never admitted this.
24:51I've never said this, like, on camera or anything.
24:53I was trained very poorly as a young wrestler.
24:57I won't even mention the guy's name who trained me.
25:00He was so god-awful and trained me so ass-backwards.
25:04So I had wrestled on the Northeast Independence for about four years or five years before I
25:09finally got my opportunity at ECW.
25:11But hanging around Taz and Perry in the dojo and getting to listen to Paul and Dreamer and
25:20the Ravens and the Sandmans put stuff together, that's where I really got my education in the
25:26wrestling business.
25:27And in-ring, watching him train students and exactly how you should have your hands and
25:31where your feet should be and how to take a move like this and why you do what you do
25:36and listening to him and Perry, that's where I learned from.
25:39Well, I appreciate that.
25:40He didn't train me directly, but I learned a lot just from watching and listening.
25:46But by the way, why has Winston Brands not been mentioned here?
25:50Is he here on the panel, Winston Brands?
25:52Where's Winston Brands?
25:53I'm not familiar with Winston Brands.
25:55I must have missed that in my research.
25:57I don't think he's going to make it.
25:58Some of us know Winston Brands.
25:59This cat right here, Mr. Promoter, Mr. Does-It-All, Mr. Scheduling.
26:04Okay, when there was a problem with business, he wasn't Mark Lamonaco, he was Winston Brands.
26:13Heel.
26:14Big heel.
26:14When there was a problem with business, translation, when Taz didn't have his own dressing room,
26:21Winston Brands had to call the arena to arrange for a private dressing room for the human suplex machine
26:29and the FTW World Heavyweight Champion.
26:32Thank you, Bob.
26:32I did not mean to cut you off, but please go ahead.
26:35You don't need to shoot either.
26:37You're out here, shoot.
26:38You had the opportunity to headline the very first ever ECW pay-per-view with Sabu.
26:44Yeah, that made the locker room happy, too.
26:45Yeah, they were all very happy with me for that.
26:47Well, explain.
26:48Tell me the story.
26:48It wasn't my fault.
26:49It was his fault.
26:50All the heat I got from the boys, not you, him.
26:53You got all the heat on me.
26:55You wanted to make me the main event.
26:56I didn't want to be the main event.
26:57But it should have been the main event.
26:58I know.
26:59But others were upset over it.
27:01And let's be honest.
27:02This is the authorized, untold story.
27:04That's what I'm saying.
27:04Who was upset?
27:05Let's hear it.
27:06Let's see what's...
27:06Everybody.
27:07They were all...
27:07And that...
27:08I want to smash things.
27:10That's...
27:10Because I'm still passionate about it.
27:12That's what made us us.
27:14It wasn't all rainbows and butterflies in that locker room, bro.
27:18Okay, we were competitive animals.
27:22We wanted to all be at the top of the food chain.
27:25Every single one of us.
27:27Every one of us.
27:28Ah, you guys weren't getting paid at times.
27:29Checks are bouncing.
27:30You guys are a bunch of mocks.
27:31Okay, yeah, maybe.
27:32But I'll tell you what.
27:33If there were 50 people in that crowd or 5,000 people, we were busting our ass no matter
27:38if there were cameras or no cameras.
27:40We believed it.
27:41We lived it.
27:42It was us.
27:43Full throttle every single night.
27:46That's all that mattered.
27:47So we were competitive.
27:48So hey, Taz and Sabu on the poster.
27:51Well, that's not cool.
27:51Well, they're in the main event.
27:52Well, why?
27:53You know, because guys cared.
27:56You guys keep mentioning the word passion.
27:58I think you'll all agree with me that the two men who are about to join us have as much
28:01passion as anybody.
28:04From Yonkers, New York, the innovator of Tommy Dreamer!
28:11Hey, shit!
28:12Damn it!
28:14From the south side of Dudleyville, D-Vaughn Dudley!
28:20D-Vaughn Dudley always looking for a fight.
28:24Tommy Dreamer has fought so hard to achieve respect as a hardcore wrestler.
28:32My God!
28:34Thank you, sir.
28:35May I have another?
28:37That's Sean Spear!
28:39Oh my God!
28:41Sean Spear!
28:42Look at Dudley's!
28:44We are finally joined by the last two faces on the Mount Rushmore, if you will, of ECW.
28:56The other half of the most decorated tag team in sports entertainment history, D-Vaughn
29:01Dudley, and the innovator of violence, Tommy Dreamer.
29:05Welcome.
29:06Thank you for having me.
29:07Now, we've heard everybody else's story.
29:09How did you two, we'll start with you, D-Vaughn, your journey into this foray that would
29:13become ECW?
29:15Well, I was trained by Johnny Rods, which Tommy Dreamer was trained by him, Big Dick
29:20Dudley, you know, I came from the School of Gleason's Gym, and Taz, of course, and Taz.
29:27And, you know, when I first came into the wrestling school that day, Johnny said, listen, you know,
29:33you ever heard of ECW?
29:34And I said, I've seen it.
29:35I said, it scares me to death.
29:37You got people hitting people with barbed wire bats and, you know, tables and thumbtack
29:41and all that.
29:41I was like, yeah.
29:42I was like, I've seen it.
29:43He goes, yeah, well, you know, I trained Dreamer and Taz.
29:45I said, absolutely.
29:46And he goes, well, you know, what do you think about going?
29:49And at first, my first reaction was, I don't want to go there.
29:52Oh, you know, and then all of a sudden, I said, well, what the hell?
29:55Let me give it a shot.
29:56You know, a lot of times the talent would come in, like on Thursday, it was called shootout
29:58at high noon, and we'd kind of just shoot on each other.
30:00Yeah.
30:01And a lot of guys would come in there, not just New York guys, some guys are coming from
30:04Philly and stuff and getting there and just go.
30:06A lot of people don't know that.
30:07We would just do that to stay in shape and just have fun.
30:09When you have angry people that need to take out their aggressions on others, you invent
30:15things like shootout at high noon or Shark Tank or whatever other cool little phrase he
30:22wanted to put on, you come in the ring, I beat the piss out of you, you go home, and
30:27I'm happy.
30:28But we loved each other.
30:29For the afternoon.
30:29Yeah, and we loved each other.
30:30We loved each other.
30:31Just to give you a little back story on that, whenever you need clarification on what some
30:35people really mean at this table.
30:39And the great thing about it, and then from there, I met Paulie, went to the ECW studio.
30:43He says, what's your favorite movie?
30:45I said, Rocky III.
30:47He says, oh, who's your favorite character?
30:48Now, automatically, I guess he probably assumed it was going to be Rocky Balboa, and I said,
30:52no, Mr. T, Clubber Lang.
30:53He said, can you do it?
30:55I said, do what?
30:55He said, can you do an impression of Mr. T?
30:57I said, absolutely.
30:58I did it for him.
30:58He goes, hmm, you ever seen a movie Pulp Fiction?
31:01And I said, no, I've never seen it.
31:03And he goes, well, it's out of the movies.
31:05It's going to be on VHS.
31:07This is how far back we are.
31:08With the blockbuster guy.
31:08Yeah, with the blockbuster.
31:09Got that.
31:10Saw it.
31:11And then he came back to him, and he goes, what do you think?
31:13I said, I love it.
31:14He had already knew the background of my parents being reverends and things like that.
31:18So the whole testify and all of that is basically Mr. T and Samuel L. Jackson from Pulp Fiction
31:23combined into one.
31:24That's D-Von.
31:25And thus, you know, I was born.
31:28Came inside and tagged with Bubba, and the rest is history.
31:31I mean, I owe a lot to these three men right here.
31:34Um, Dreamer, Paul, I know, he's going to tell me the, uh, four, well.
31:38It's four people.
31:38What's his head?
31:39No, no, no, no, no.
31:40In other words, no, in other words, Bubba and I were two young guys.
31:43Don't get hot, bro.
31:44You did nothing, man.
31:45No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
31:47Get out of here.
31:47No, what I'm saying is.
31:48I'm the other guy.
31:49In the beginning.
31:50No, and it's not that.
31:51In the very beginning, it was Paul.
31:52You're Marty Jannetty.
31:53You understand.
31:53Oh, man.
31:56See?
31:58You understand.
31:59But no, it was Paul that, you know, that gave me my job.
32:03Always the baby face.
32:04You understand.
32:06You understand.
32:06He's talking about his early beginnings.
32:09He owes it to us.
32:11But not Bubba.
32:12Well, no, because me and Bubba were on the same level at that point.
32:14You know, we were trying to get a job and be established.
32:16What he said is actually true.
32:17Me and Devon actually direct, like, I directly owe my first gig to Dreamer.
32:23He owes his to him.
32:25They owe their both to him.
32:27That's how it all interchanges.
32:28It's a pay-or-do's process.
32:30If me and Taz were ever losing an argument, I got you a job.
32:33Duh.
32:33You're a young boy.
32:34You know, that's it.
32:35I know we're telling the back story.
32:37As important as he was, as he helped out, as I helped out, Dreamer was attached to Paul's hip from day one.
32:46Because they lived five minutes from each other.
32:48But, and Paul and Tommy, if Paul was Dr. Frankenstein, Tommy was Igor.
32:53Yeah.
32:54Not because of his weight or his waist size, but because he was constantly with him.
32:59You take the blonde, I take the one with the turban.
33:01I had my hump on my ass, not on my back.
33:05I mean, he was extremely important outside of the ring.
33:11I knew a girl from my gym that went to school with Paul, and Taz was talking to him, and he was like, let's, let me, send me a tape.
33:20And he's like, hey, you want to meet at Nathan's?
33:22So we met at Nathan's on Central Avenue in Yonkers.
33:25He, I pull up next to him, I see him there, and I'm like, I'm, you know, also a little starstruck.
33:29That's, you know, the leader of the Dangerous Alliance.
33:31Bro, he had the vet back then.
33:31Yeah, he had the vet.
33:32He probably still has it.
33:34And I walk up to him, and he's like, Tommy Dreamer, nice to meet you.
33:38And I was like, nice to meet you.
33:39You look like a cop.
33:41And I go, what?
33:42He goes, you look like a cop.
33:44I go, what?
33:45And he goes, are you a cop?
33:47I go, are we doing something illegal?
33:50And I have a package to hand him.
33:52He's like, you sure you're not a cop?
33:55No.
33:55Let's go get something to eat.
33:57Well, we're meeting at a parking lot, you know, and I was on initial meeting.
34:01And he's going to hand me a package, and I'm thinking, this guy's a cop.
34:06I told you about Tommy.
34:08But the thing is, with Tommy, I said, listen, this kid's good.
34:11I got this guy who's pretty good, man.
34:13And you remembered him.
34:15And if this was ever a precursor to come, I was like, Taz, man, I want to come.
34:19I want to come to this ECW show, blah, blah, blah, blah.
34:22You drive.
34:22I was Taz's valet driver, young boy, you know.
34:25Why am I getting smashed on this show?
34:27You too?
34:28By all you guys.
34:29Because we were.
34:30This is authentic.
34:31Well, I was senior to you guys.
34:33But I was senior to you guys.
34:35I was not saying anything bad about it.
34:37I'm just, I drove you everywhere.
34:39Okay, thank you.
34:40Yeah.
34:40Why do I believe that?
34:41And a precursor to things to come, he gives me his number, and you know, you're nervous
34:45calling.
34:45This is when we didn't have cell phones, so we had regular phones.
34:48And I'm sitting in my parents' house, and I was like, who was your friend, Doug, or whatever?
34:52Doug Margulies.
34:53Yeah.
34:54So I go, hi, may I speak to Paul, please?
34:57Who is this?
34:58This is Tommy Dreamer.
34:59And I, it's Paul.
35:01It's Paul.
35:02And I go, hi, Paul, it's Tommy Dreamer.
35:06This isn't Paul.
35:07And I went, I met you at Nathan's.
35:11This is Paul's best friend, Doug.
35:13What can I tell Paul?
35:15Can I speak to Paul?
35:16No, Paul's not here.
35:17And I said, well, okay, Paul, tell Paul that I'm going to show up at the arena.
35:24He goes, okay, I'll see you then.
35:25Bye.
35:26That was a precursor of things to come.
35:28He's crazy.
35:29I love that.
35:30He's crazy.
35:30I think everybody has a Paul Heyman that did something like that, whatever name it was.
35:34Was it that guy or whatever?
35:36It was amazing.
35:36Did you guys, did you tell the FedEx joke?
35:39It's not a joke.
35:41There you go.
35:41There you go.
35:42It's not a joke, but it's real.
35:43Here is part of the insanity.
35:45This was funny stuff right here.
35:47Can I, can I just finish my ECW setting here?
35:50I haven't even began an ECW.
35:51No, go, go, go.
35:52I wrestled the first night under a mask against Public Enemy.
35:55The next night I wrestled Taz.
35:57A week later, my phone rings.
35:59My father, some guy on the phone wants to talk to you.
36:02Doug Boggoles.
36:03And I was like, hello?
36:05He's like, hi, it's Paul.
36:07Hey, Paul, what's going on?
36:08Can you come to the studio?
36:09It was in Paoli, Pennsylvania.
36:11And I was like, yeah.
36:12He goes, I need to.
36:12And I'm like excited, you know.
36:14I drive two hours to Paoli, Pennsylvania.
36:16He makes me watch my match again that I had with Taz.
36:20And he's a maniac.
36:22And when we say the studio, it was a room with a couch and that, like, equipment.
36:28And he's like, what do you think?
36:30I said, I like the match, blah, blah, blah.
36:31And he goes, no, watch.
36:32And four people were standing up for me after I lost and going like this.
36:39He goes, those four people believe in you?
36:41I can do something with you.
36:43And I was like, great, you know.
36:46And it was off to the races.
36:48I didn't see it because we didn't get ECW then.
36:51Paul did the entire ECW show.
36:53And I'm getting goosebumps talking about it.
36:55He did the entire ECW show.
36:57And all the bad guys were going over it.
37:00It was chaos, blah, blah, blah, blah.
37:01We were the last match.
37:03And Joey Styles is wrapping up the show.
37:05Oh, Shane Douglas won.
37:07We had this.
37:08Public Enemy's running him up.
37:09Wait, wait.
37:09Go back to ringside.
37:10Go back to ringside.
37:12This young, good-looking babyface, these hard-nosed fans of Philadelphia, respect him.
37:18They're giving him a standing ovation.
37:19And he said, maybe there's hope for ECW after all.
37:24And they went to black.
37:25And the show ended like that.
37:27And it was almost like a precursor where, you know, hey, I became the flag bearer.
37:31But simple little stuff like that in the crate.
37:34And I know, you know, Paul feeds Joey at the timelines.
37:38But it was just stuff like that is pure genius out of that cranium.
37:43And I had an opportunity.
37:45I never, none of us ever had contracts.
37:47But you just went to work.
37:49You worked hard.
37:50You did what you did in the beginning to get over.
37:52Because we didn't think ECW was going to, you know, we all still had, I want to go to WWE or I want to go to WCW, you know.
37:58But little stuff like that is the makings of everyone here.
38:03Okay.
38:03As ECW grew, WCW and WWE were sort of attempting to poach away talent.
38:08And I believe there's a story regarding somebody's cellular phone that you had a code to.
38:14Well, may I?
38:16Please.
38:16Because Paul had a wonderful knack and he's brilliant.
38:20He would, hey, Paul, I'm going to check my message.
38:22So, you know, your number would come up and you'd have to enter, you know, your full phone number and then your star and then your code.
38:28And then he'd be, hey, I want to check my messages too.
38:32Can I have your phone?
38:34And then Paul would take your cell phone, look at your call list and memorize your code to your messages.
38:42Good times.
38:43Yeah.
38:43This was what we had to deal with.
38:45I love him still, though.
38:46He's out of his mind.
38:47And he had never been on the inner circle yet.
38:51Bubba was just a talent in the ring.
38:53And I called Dreamer and I said, tomorrow, glass table, one o'clock in the afternoon, don't be late.
39:00Why?
39:00What's going on?
39:01See you then.
39:02Click.
39:02I call Taz.
39:04Need you to come up to Westchester.
39:05What?
39:05Need you to come up to Westchester.
39:06Why, bro?
39:07See you at the sushi place.
39:09One o'clock in the afternoon.
39:11Bring Bubba.
39:12Bring Bubba what?
39:13We're going to need him.
39:15Click.
39:16Bubba thinks Taz just wants a ride.
39:19See you notice the pattern?
39:20So Bubba comes in and he's sitting at the glass table and he's like this.
39:25What?
39:26And I said, what's the matter?
39:27And he goes, I know I'm just here to drive him.
39:29You want me to go get you guys a coffee or something?
39:31And I said, no, you're going to want to sit here to hear this.
39:34He goes, okay, what's going on?
39:35And I put the phone down in the middle of the table and I said, who has Todd Gordon's phone number?
39:41And Taz and Tommy had Todd's phone number.
39:44I said, put him on speaker and dial his phone number.
39:46But hit star 67 so he doesn't know that it's you calling because he won't pick up.
39:51So they dial his cell phone number.
39:52I said, hit star, star, hit 0816.
39:56Doot, doot, doot, doot.
39:580816.
39:58First message, beep.
40:00It's Bill Alfonso.
40:00Can't wait to go to WCW with you, daddy.
40:03Second message, beep.
40:04Hey, Todd, it's Terry Taylor.
40:05Listen, we made the decision not to go to Kevin Sullivan with this because we know he and Paul are tight.
40:13And Kevin will discuss this with Paul.
40:14And one by one, everyone on that list was on Todd's voicemail.
40:21It was sickening.
40:22And he's sitting there.
40:24And after a while, he just sits there and goes, I don't know why I'm at this table.
40:29I don't know what the f*** I'm doing here.
40:32Why am I here?
40:34And I just give him a ride.
40:35And that was it.
40:39And he just stepped up.
40:40He goes, okay, I'm here for a reason.
40:42What is it?
40:43And that was the day you actually sat back and you go, well, what am I going to do now?
40:48Who's going to book the towns?
40:50And that's when I just went, I'll do it.
40:52I'm actually going to start down at the end with you, Taz.
40:54In a word or two, what's the legacy of ECW?
40:57The legacy of ECW, I mean, that's a tough one.
41:05In a word or two, I would have to say lightning in a bottle, never done again.
41:12Amazing.
41:13Amazing.
41:13Best time I've ever had in my professional life, ever.
41:17How important was Napster to the music business?
41:20It changed it.
41:21What happened to Napster?
41:22It went away.
41:23How important was ECW to the wrestling industry?
41:25It changed the business.
41:26What happened to it?
41:27It went away.
41:28ECW is the Napster of the wrestling industry.
41:32One of those things where back when we first started, nobody was looking at us.
41:37WCW, WWE, no one was looking at us.
41:40No one gave us a chance.
41:42Paul Heyman gave us a chance.
41:43Paul Heyman gave us our start.
41:46He believed in us when we didn't even believe in ourselves.
41:49There were times we would do promos and things like that and I couldn't get it, right, and this and that.
41:53And I would just want to give up and it was at times where Paul would put me aside
41:57and after having a conversation with him, I was able to hit that promo the way I should have hit it.
42:01It was at that particular point in time that I knew that ECW was the place that I should have been in.
42:07These guys right here guided me, helped me when I knew nothing about this business.
42:12Paul Heyman giving me my shot.
42:14Dreamer taking me under my wing and just embracing me and giving me the guidance that I needed.
42:19You know, Bubba as my tag team partner becoming one half of the greatest tag team in the history of this business.
42:24And Taz, giving me the okay, letting Paul know we got a Dudley that's going to make it and these two are going to be successful.
42:32Testify.
42:32My brother.
42:35For me, ECW was the greatest time of my life.
42:40I owe everything to him.
42:45And at times I wanted to kill him.
42:46Out of loyalty, I still would do anything for him.
42:51And yes, I wish we were closer, but that's a whole other episode.
42:57But in this business's history, Eddie Graham taught Dusty Rhodes.
43:05Dusty Rhodes taught him.
43:06He taught me.
43:08He taught him.
43:08He taught everybody.
43:10He gave so much.
43:12People s***ed on him.
43:13I s***ed on him.
43:15My family lost money.
43:16His parents lost money.
43:18People who say, oh, he bounced a check on me.
43:20He's a scumbag.
43:21He's a liar.
43:21At times he was.
43:22But you know what?
43:24He did it for all of us.
43:26And I don't care about, there's a lot of people, oh, they wouldn't have had opportunity.
43:30They wouldn't even be able to work indies if it wasn't for him.
43:32And when you say this is a panel of a Mount Rushmore, yes.
43:37But you know what?
43:37If there's one Mount Rushmore, it should be Paul and a bunch of us standing behind him.
43:42There should be Rob Van Dam here.
43:43There should be Sabu and Shane Douglas.
43:46Stevie Richards.
43:46There were so many guys who came from that because he did everything special.
43:53Well, it's undeniable that these men started a revolution.
43:56I remember I was lucky enough to live through the revolution as a fan.
43:59You still have the opportunity if you haven't seen it.
44:02The entire ECW library is available on demand only on WWE Network.
44:09I'm going to give these last two minutes to the mastermind.
44:11Thank you guys all for joining me.
44:13Mr. Heyman, the floor is yours.
44:14Well, you know, it's very hard to encapsulate what we tried to accomplish, what we didn't accomplish in any one-hour, two-hour, three-hour format.
44:25It's impossible.
44:26And I know the designation of this show is to promote the fact that this TVMA library is now available on the WWE Network.
44:33Taz, for all his braggadocio, is very humble about his contributions because his T-shirt designs kept us alive.
44:42If you asked how we lived hand-to-mouth, we lived on our merchandise a lot of the times, and he designed our merchandise, all of it.
44:50Bubba went door-to-door in Fort Lauderdale.
44:53If we didn't draw in Fort Lauderdale and in Orlando and Tampa, we would never have gotten into New York and into Chicago and into Detroit, because we never would have been able to clear TV in those markets.
45:03D-Von, besides being one-half of the greatest tag team of all time, D-Von ran the warehouse with Tommy.
45:10Now, some people thought that the last buffer was our CEO, Steve Carroll, and some thought it was Ron Buffon, our executive producer, but this was the last person you got through to get to me, and it was tough, tough to get through Tommy, and he was my sounding board.
45:23Every idea that I came up with, I usually come up with in the car, on the ride home, from the show, feeling the passion from the show, and I ran it by him.
45:32He was my sounding board.
45:35So, while I am moved and I'm humbled by everything that everybody says, I vehemently disagree with Tommy, on one aspect.
45:46It's not me standing in front and everybody behind me.
45:50It's everybody standing in front of me with me behind, because these guys do what I could not do, and I respect it, and I admire it.
46:02And I cherish the courage that everyone shows inside the ring.
46:08I lived vicariously through all.
46:11Everyone here set up chairs.
46:14Everyone here did the most medial of tasks.
46:18We cleaned up the locker rooms.
46:19We made sure the toilets were cleaned so we could have the buildings back.
46:23And none of these jobs were beneath us.
46:26We were proud to do it, because we did have each other.
46:30And no matter how much infighting there was, and there was a lot of infighting, no matter how much infighting it was, when we made a decision, we all went together on it.
46:41We had each other's back.
46:43There was a bond here that could never be broken.
46:47And though we would fight each other to the death, God help anyone that came in against us.
46:56And if anyone ever walked in this room against us, they didn't stand a chance.
47:01Unless, of course, his name is Brock Lesnar, which brings us full circle to today's WWE.
47:12And now, I have fulfilled my responsibility to all parties involved.
47:18We're not ending an ECW show on Brock Lesnar.
47:23No.
47:24Why?
47:25Well, why can't we?
47:26I mean, how would you like to end it?
47:28I don't know.
47:29We're talking about him.
47:32We're not the real surprise.
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