- 6/17/2025
Dr Dheeraj Sharma IIM discusses the reasons behind Pakistan's struggles and India's rise in a thought-provoking conversation with Tahir Gora.
# DheerajSharma #ProfDheerajSharma #DrDheerajSharmaIIM #DheerajSharmaIIMRohtak #DheerajSharmaIIMAhmedabad #IIMRohtakDirector #IndiaVsPakistan #Geopolitics #IndiaProgress
# DheerajSharma #ProfDheerajSharma #DrDheerajSharmaIIM #DheerajSharmaIIMRohtak #DheerajSharmaIIMAhmedabad #IIMRohtakDirector #IndiaVsPakistan #Geopolitics #IndiaProgress
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NewsTranscript
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00:54media حسنوال انضافت کے ساتھ باہرد امریکہ کے تعلقات میں اس لئے
01:06کوئی رکھنا نہیں آئے گا کہ اس وقت بھارت دنیا کی پانچویں
01:11بڑی ایکانومی ہے اور تیسری بڑی ایکانومی بننے کے راستے پر ہے
01:16انٹرسنگ بات یہ ہے کہ بھارت کے خلاف ایسے لوگ پراباگینڈا
01:21کر رہے ہیں جو پاکستان سے بھی تعلق رکھتے ہیں ان کی اپنی اکانومی
01:27اس وقت جسے پنجابی میں کہتے ہیں کھڑے لائن میں لگی ہوئی ہے آج
01:32ہم بات چیت کریں گے کہ نائنٹین فارٹی سیون کے بٹوارے کے بعد
01:37بھارت آج کے روز کیسے دنیا کی پانچویں بڑی اکانومی بنا اور
01:44انفیکٹ تیسری بڑی اکانومی کے قریب ہے اور کیسے پاکستان بینک
01:49ربسی کے دہانے پہ کھڑا ہے یہ ساری بات چیت ہم کریں گے
01:54پروفیسر دیرج شرمہ جی سے جو انڈین انسیٹیوٹ آف منیجمنٹ روتک
01:59کے ڈائریکٹر ہیں بہت ہی بڑی اسکالر ہیں جو بات بھی وہ کرتے ہیں
02:04وہ ڈیٹا کے ساتھ ریشنیلٹی کے ساتھ ریسرچ کے ساتھ کرتے ہیں میرے
02:09ساتھ جڑے ہوئے ہیں روتک سے پروفیسر دیرج شرمہ جی یہ بتائیے
02:13کہ بھارت اس وقت دنیا کی پانچ بھی بڑی اکنومک پاور آفیشل
02:18ہی بن چکا ہے اور پاکستان جو دوسرا بڑا دیش ہے ان ٹرمز آف
02:24پاپولیشن اس ریجن میں اور جو نائنٹین فارٹی سیون کے بٹوارے
02:30کے نتیجہ میں ایک نئے دیش کے سامنے دنیا پر عبرا وہ شروع شروع
02:35میں لگتا تھا کہ بہت ترقی کرے گا لیکن آج کے دن سر جب آپ سے
02:40بات ہو رہی ہے تو practically ایک billion ڈالر بھی ان کا اپنا سرپولس
02:46میں نہیں ہے تو سر کیا اس کی آپ وجہ دیکھتے ہیں میں آج آپ کو
02:54تھوڑا سا with detailed data analysis تھوڑا economic policies اور economic
03:00development کے اوپر تھوڑی چرچہ کرنا ہے دیکھیں 47 میں انڈیا ازاد ہوا
03:07اور پاکستان ایک ملک بن گیا ہے east پاکستان west پاکستان دونوں
03:11اگر آپ اسے economy کی حساب سے دیکھیں اور معیشت کی حساب سے دیکھیں
03:18تو why economy divided by population even at that time پاکستان east اور west
03:26ملا کر ایک برابر صاحی محول تھا as a matter of fact اگر ہم numbers پہ
03:31جائیں تو per capita gdp کی جو figures ہیں 1950 کی اس میں پاکستان آگے ہے
03:37gdp چھوٹا ہے پر عبادی بھی چھوٹی ہے بہت ساری manufacturing جو ہے
03:43east پاکستان میں ہوا کرتی تھی تو پاکستان was better placed
03:47at the time of independence ان کو ایک opportunity تھی ان کو اس opportunity
03:54کو capitalize کرنے کے لیے دو راستے تھے پہلا راستہ یہ تھا کہ آپ
04:00self reliance اور internal development کریں اور institutions بنائیں جو institutions
04:09جو آپ کے آگے کے structures کو بلند کریں اور آپ کے وہاں کی جو local
04:16development ہے local industry کو strengthen کریں تو اس میں دو تین چیزیں بڑی
04:21important ہوتی ہیں وہ ایک ہے infrastructure infrastructure دوسری ہوتی ہے
04:29you know visible and invisible infrastructure اور دوسری چیز ہوتی ہے کہ policy
04:35decisions uh سب سے پہلا بڑا ہی ایک ایک important decision which is a social
04:41decision uh but had an economic impact on on the entire nation was that of uh uh what
04:50is called uh a very very important aandolan by vinova bhaweji vinova bhawe bhaarat
04:56ستنا ہے بہت سارے ہمارے viewers ان کا نام بھی نہیں جانتے انہوں نے
05:02پورے بھارت میں ایک اندولن چلایا اور اس کا نام تھا بودان اندولن
05:06بھارت میں ایک policy ایسی بنائی گئی جہاں پر کوئی بھی indian جو ہے وہ ایک
05:1525 اکڑ 20 یا 25 اکڑ سے زیادہ زمین نہیں رکھ سکتا اب سرکار اس کا
05:21فیصلہ جو ہے نا وہ سوہ موٹا بھی لے سکتی اور سرکار نے ایسا فیصلہ
05:26سوہ موٹا نہیں لیا اس کا فیصلہ جو ہے وہ انہوں نے ایک persuasion کے
05:33موٹ سے وینوبا بھاوے جی کے راستے سے چلا ہے وینوبا بھاوے جی
05:36نے جا جا کر راجاؤں کے پاس انہوں نے بھو دان مانگا اور لوگوں نے
05:42انہیں زمین دی in the process جو فارمر ہے وہ فارمر کے پاس وہ
05:49لینڈ آیا بڑے بڑے لینڈ لارڈز جو ہیں وہ ختم ہو گئے فارمر کی ایک
05:55enrichment ہوئی اس process کو کئی سال لگ گئے but on the contrary پاکستان میں
06:02انہوں نے وڈھیروں کا زمیداروں کا ایک system برقرار رکھا
06:07مجھے کچھ لوگ یہ بتایا کرتے تھے پاکستان میں ایسے ایسے
06:11زمیدار رہے ہیں nineteen seventies اور eighties تک جن کی اپنی زمین کے
06:16اندر آٹھ ہٹس دس دس railway stations نکلتے ہیں اور ان کے پاس
06:20سیکڑوں ہزاروں اکڑ مربوں کا concept ہوتا تھا چالیس اکڑ کا ایک
06:25مربع ہوتا تھا ہزار ہزار مربع زمین ان کے پاس تھی that is a first
06:31policy decision which transformed india اس کی uptake slow ہے پر اس کا long
06:38term impact بہت زیادہ اس کا long term impact کچھ negative ہوتا ہے کیونکہ
06:43آپ intensive farming نہیں کر سکتے آپ کے پاس farm holding چھوٹی ہو گئے
06:47پر انڈیا جیسے ملک میں آپ large farm holdings کر ہی نہیں سکتے تھے
06:51then farmers would have exploited would have been exploited by the zimidars in the same
06:58way as the kings princes and the british government was exploiting india
07:03so یہ ایک اتنا important decision ہے ونوبا بھاوے جی کو بھارت وطنہ دے گیا ہے
07:08deservingly اور بہت سارے ہمارے ہندوستانی ویورز اور پاکستانی ویورز ان کو
07:13پڑھنا چاہیے ان کی life history کے بارے میں کیسے انہوں نے جا جا کر لوگوں
07:17سے دان مانگا زمین کا اور اس کے result میں یہ first policy decision ہے
07:22یہاں انڈیا اور پاکستان separate ہو گئے ایک زمیداری اور وڑکنوں کی
07:26state بن گئی اور ایک state جو ہے وہ farmers کی state بن گئی اب دوسرا
07:32policy decision تھا creation of institutions institution creation میں سب سے پہلا
07:39step جو very very important steps which were taken was administrative step that
07:44was taken by سردار واللہ بھائی پٹے ان کے سامنے ایک بہت بڑا
07:48question آیا کہ یہ جو انڈیا جو جو machinery ہے establishment ہے
07:52کیا اسے تہس نہس کر دینا چاہیے کیونکہ یہ تو british legacy
07:57ہے یہ تو britishers کے agents ہیں یہ ان کے tools ہیں ان کے
08:01instruments ہیں تو سردار واللہ بھائی پٹے نے کہا no a leader
08:05never quarrels with the tools the tools have to be used you cannot quarrel
08:10with the tools تو انہوں نے ایک system بنایا academies بنائی ان کی
08:15ایک rationality create کی ایک planning commission بنایا جس کے تہت
08:20انڈیا کا ایک developmental process شروع ہو تیسرا in terms of
08:26institutions institutions of national importance جسے ہم کہتے ہیں آج جس
08:30کا ہم فائدہ لے رہے ہیں آئی ایٹی آئی ایم آل انڈیا institute of medical
08:35sciences ان کی creation late 50s early 60s میں ہونی شروع ہو گئی جس کا کہ ایک
08:43ایک long term again اس کا uptake slow ہوتا بھر اس کا long term implication ہوتا ہے
08:47on the contrary پاکستان میں نا تو civil bureaucracy کی کبھی functioning ہوئی نا
08:56civil bureaucracy نے کبھی اتنا اس کو strengthen کیا گیا military bureaucracy ہی
09:02run ہوتی رہی as a matter of fact even the first president of Pakistan
09:09اسکندر مرزا صاحب وہ indian political service کے آدمی تھے administrative
09:13service اس time ہوتی نہیں تھی پر وہ اپنا اپنا army rank زیادہ پسند کرتے
09:18تھے اپنے آپ کو major general کہلاتے تھے اور major general نے ہونے کے
09:23باوجود انہوں نے civil bureaucracy کو strengthen نہیں گیا انہوں نے
09:26ایوب خان صاحب کو invite کیا کہ وہ ایک military dictatorship قائم ہو
09:31یہ بہت بڑا انتر ہے civil versus military یہ پاکستان میں ایک
09:36institutional اور کوئی institutions of national importance نہیں create
09:39گئے گئے اب چوتھا self reliance versus external support شروع کے دنوں
09:48میں between 1950s and 60s india اور پاکستان دونوں ہی dependent تھے
09:53بھارت US سے wheat لیا کرتا تھا under PL480 wheat آیا کرتا تھا وہاں
10:00سے india میں اتنی production نہیں تھی اتنی بڑی آبادی تھی اور india
10:06کو wheat آتی تھی اور اس کے علاوہ india نے ایک non-aligned ایک
10:11position لی non-aligned movement میں اگر آپ کو یاد ہوگا تو
10:15Yugoslavia کے president india اور اس وقت Egypt بھی اس میں شامل تھا
10:21non-alignment میں انہوں نے ایک ایک movement چلائی کہ ہم نہ US کے
10:26ساتھ ہوں گے نہ USSR کے ساتھ ہوں گے نہ eastern block نہ western
10:30block we will remain اس کی بہت ساری disadvantages بھی رہیں بہت ساری
10:35advantages بھی رہیں advantages were far more than disadvantages disadvantages
10:39کا مطلب یہ ہے آپ کو immediate جو immediate جو relief aid چاہیے تھا وہ
10:44نہیں ملا تو میں آپ کو یہ بتانا چاہتا ہوں کہ ایک paper لکھا ہے
10:49محمود عیوب صاحب نے 1967 میں اس paper سے میں نے drop کیا
10:53Pakistan کو between 1954 and 1964 دس سال کے time period میں جتنی aid US سے ملی ہے
11:01india کو اس سے 110 ایڈ ملی ہے اس کے بعد india کو USSR سے تھوڑی بہت
11:08aid ملنی شروعی again the aid that india received from USSR was one sixth of the
11:14aid that Pakistan got from US in that period of 1954 to about 1964 یہ ان کا paper ہے
11:24मैंने paper کو اس کو میں cite کر رہا ہوں it is empirically validated the amount of aid
11:31इसका मतलब यह है कि एक देश ने अपनी foreign policy की independence
11:38खोकर अपनी internal independence खोकर एक foreign aid का सहारा लेकर अपने यहां
11:45development वो चाहे mangla dam हो वो चाहे बाकी जो दूसरे पाकिस्तान
11:51में oxus फेड़ में यहां यह सारा ही सारा उस टाइम पे पुड़ इंडियां कांटेक्स जो वीट की एड़् आती थी वह
12:07उनने सो पैंसर्ट की जब इंडियो और पाकिस्तान की जंग होई तो आप को यह जानकर है रानी
12:12that the U.S. closed the PL-480 aid to India.
12:17They said we will not give you this aid
12:20because you are not listening to us
12:22and you are going to Tashkan to sign this agreement.
12:24This is the fifth and the most important difference
12:29is the leadership in India at that time.
12:32Again, Lal Bahadur Shastri, I think,
12:34one of the finest prime ministers,
12:36one of the finest leaders that India has produced.
12:38They have one day,
12:46India would be a shortage of wheat
12:49and food.
12:51They had one day to sit behind
12:53and they had one day to watch them.
12:55They had two days under the sun or not in India
12:59whenever the children receive a day to eat
13:01or they needed a day to live.
13:04And then he said that the entire nation, and I'll tell you, even today there are parts of India
13:25as a tradition, because food is saved, and then it's been a tradition for people's fasting.
13:38So, self-mukhtari versus dependence on the outside nation is another policy decision,
13:46which is so important, that it had a very slow uptake.
13:54It takes time to build that momentum, but it's a long-term result.
14:01Now, I'll tell you a short-term versus long-term impact.
14:06Between 1961 and 1970, Pakistan's GDP, its growth rate average is 7%,
14:15and the range was between 4.5% to 11.35%.
14:20Look at the pace of growth, but all of this growth is foreign-funded.
14:27Correspondingly, India's growth rate at that point in time was less than 4%, average growth rate,
14:32and range was between some 3-odd percent to about 6% or 7%, but the range was well below 4%.
14:39Average was well below.
14:41Now, you can see that in 1971 to 1977, Pakistan's GDP has gone from Bangladesh,
14:46because the manufacturing has gone from Bangladesh, a lot of Bangladeshis even today contend
14:52that the creation of Islamabad is on the slave labor of the Bangladeshis who were working and sweating it
15:00out in the manufacturing facilities of textile mills and cotton production areas of Bangladesh.
15:07Because in 1971, Bangladesh was different, Pakistan's growth rate in 1971 fell to 0.47%.
15:18It is a demonstrable evidence of how the growth rate, because of the severance of Bangladesh, fell to 0.47%.
15:2678 to 70, 1992, again the growth rate of Pakistan was averaging around 7%, range of 4 to 10.5%.
15:4092-2002 till it fell to 3.5% average growth.
15:45And after that, 2003-2013 till the average growth was 4%.
15:48Correspondingly, the negative years of negative growth in between are about 6 years.
15:57India, on the other hand, negative growth rate of the years, they were only 2 during this entire period,
16:02whereas the average growth of India now started to grow up to about 5%.
16:08The institutions that you have made decisions, the policy decisions, the changes that you have started.
16:12India, on the other hand, India has opened a lot of economic liberalization in which the architect
16:26who is the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh Ji was the Prime Minister, Finance Minister.
16:32After that, 1990-1990, Dr. Subramanian Swami, for a brief period, had developed.
16:38You know, he was a Commerce Minister for a very brief period.
16:41He had created a blueprint.
16:42He had created a blueprint.
16:42His book is resetting a book.
16:44His book is also a book.
16:44His book is also done in which he has done.
16:47Overall, if you can see, foreign independence from Pakistan,
16:51a lot of impetus to Pakistan,
16:54for 9-2003 onwards, the economy has taken a tumble.
17:00It has taken a tumble.
17:02And I will tell you a very interesting fact that when Pakistan's economy grew up,
17:10Pakistan has attempted to have a wage of war against India.
17:15The highest growth rate of Pakistan was historically 65 and 64.
17:20The highest growth rate of Pakistan has taken a lot of economic power in India.
17:35Same thing happened in 1998-1999.
17:37Growth rate of Pakistan has taken a lot of economic power in India.
17:40The highest growth rate of Pakistan has taken a lot of economic power in India.
17:43The highest growth rate of Pakistan has taken a lot of economic power in India.
17:45You will not stabilize.
17:46You will not use it.
17:48Evidence of that is available even today.
17:51I was reading the recent article which came out in Pakistan Express.
17:56It is a Pakistan newspaper.
17:58And Don has also covered it.
18:00That now, as recent as just a few weeks ago, the defense budget of Pakistan
18:06Pakistan was increased by 16% and the rationalization that was given was that there has been considerable inflation
18:15and the prices of things have gone up.
18:17And therefore, the army's budget has to be increased.
18:22These are very, very important policy decisions and policy landmark decisions,
18:28which have separated the two countries in a big and profound manner.
18:32And now, I think the gorge between both of them is so big that there is no…
18:37Now, you cannot even draw parallels anymore.
18:39In 50s, 60s and 70s, you could draw parallels.
18:42But now, it is not even there to draw parallels.
18:46And one final thing that India's economy is the fifth largest on nominal basis.
18:51But the real measure of economy is PPP basis,
18:54which is purchasing power parity, because India's things are in India.
18:57India's income is the third largest economy in India.
19:00So, on PPP, India is the third largest economy in the world.
19:04And, you know, you come to India, you'll see a thriving atmosphere of growing economic activity.
19:11You've opened up a lot of very important things.
19:14And I'm going to understand that this is what you're talking about.
19:17You've mentioned the issue of the world in India.
19:21And it's very valid.
19:24And I think that they live in India is very valid.
19:25And they want to understand its ownAY.
19:28You have their own moral principle,
19:31that they want to fulfill their lives within the world.
19:32And so, we want to have the language of the world.
19:34And as you understand them,
19:36I want to say that they want to understand this new world that
19:38that is why for Pakistan,
19:40that is why Pakistan,
19:42which can pass the capability of people,
19:42which can still be the opportunity,
19:43to that means that there is in India,
19:44And that's why this is a war.
19:46This is a situation where I am and Major Gurov Aria, I have many times.
19:53I have a retired lieutenant general K.P.
19:58Shankar Ji interview.
20:00So, they have been very important.
20:02They have said that the army of the nation are the nation-builders.
20:06And the Pakistan of the army of the nation-breaker is the nation-breaker.
20:12So, the mindset here is that everything is the army of the army.
20:19So, in this mindset in the context of Pakistan's economic development
20:25or the overall development of the economic development,
20:28what can we see in the overall development of India?
20:30I think that I have not only an economic development in India,
20:39there is an Indian wisdom.
20:41We do not, at least I can speak for the academic community,
20:47and also of the thinking community.
20:49The think tanks and thinkers are on their behalf.
20:51I can say that people are not short-sighted in their approach.
20:56Vasudev Katumbukam, which is used in G20, the world is one family.
21:03We do not want it.
21:04We do not want it.
21:05We do not want it in Pakistan.
21:06Actually, I feel sad.
21:08I have friends who had studied with me in the U.S.
21:11The plight of the average person.
21:12The plight of the average person.
21:13The army will increase their budget.
21:14The army will increase their budget.
21:15The army's budget.
21:16The numbers are prepared for you.
21:17The amounts of the average person,
21:20the army will increase its its capacity.
21:24this is fine but the bulk of this share actually the increments
21:41so India as India thinks India may
22:06the third largest economy on PPP basis and by the way the second largest manufacturing
22:17hub in the world now a report I will say yeah to PwC or Deloitte money control report
22:25I have India was third now it is a second largest manufacturing manufacturing sector
22:32service sector thrive these things are definitely being recognized by the West not only India is a
22:44growing market growing producer but also has people who they are not the people who are you know who are
22:59there to take something away or confront something or you know push an agenda log
23:05up now calm turn the road to be good enough to know that I'm not going to be good enough to know that I'm
23:12looking for now to know that they are not in the business of proving that they are superior to others
23:24others, that their culture is superior
23:26to others, that their religion is superior to
23:28others. They are in
23:30the business of
23:31doing things.
23:33Karma ki jo philosophy hai
23:35aur dharma ki philosophy hai,
23:37wo us ke oopar chalna chaathe hai.
23:39Do your work,
23:41take care of your responsibilities
23:43and move on. I think West
23:45is the recognition of this.
23:46And the second point which you made
23:49on Prime Minister
23:50Modi's visit, upcoming visit to US,
23:54dekhyeh, Prime Minister Modi has
23:56visited number of countries,
23:58am study bhi kiya hai, humne
24:00unka eek 56 countries ka to
24:02eek analysis mere paas pada di hua hai.
24:05They go with an agenda
24:06and agenda is
24:08to cater
24:10to the future and benefit
24:12that arises to a citizen of
24:14India. We are
24:15representing the people of
24:18India there, unka eek very specific agenda
24:20in the future.
24:21Uh,
24:22wahaan ab narrative,
24:24joh narrative pedal ho raha hai,
24:26ya narrative pedal kiya jara raha hai,
24:28us mein bokut saray loog involved.
24:31Uh, us,
24:32they are the forces who believe
24:34ke growing India,
24:36stable India,
24:37uh,
24:37creates a third front,
24:39sort of.
24:40Uh,
24:41tuh third front kuhi chahata nahi hai,
24:42ya woh log nahi chahate hai.
24:44There is a whole,
24:46uh,
24:46they often talk about,
24:47uh,
24:48you know,
24:48people,
24:49uh,
24:49who are funded by billionaires
24:51to create,
24:52um,
24:53a tumultuous environment
24:54in,
24:55in the country.
24:55And they have done this in,
24:56in other countries as well.
24:58Yeh eek concerted effort hai.
25:00Uh,
25:00I don't believe,
25:01uh,
25:02uh,
25:02this narrative is going to
25:04help them in any way
25:06or do anything against India
25:08because India mein
25:09evident cheizeh itani zahada hai.
25:12Joh manufacturing mein,
25:13joh agriculture mein,
25:15joh services sector mein,
25:17joh pharmaceutical mein,
25:18education mein,
25:19joh developments ho raha hai hai hai.
25:20They are evident.
25:22And,
25:22uh,
25:22narrative can only take you so far.
25:24It cannot,
25:25uh,
25:25convert into what is there
25:26into what is not there.
25:28As far as,
25:30the biggest narrative
25:30which is being peddled
25:31on non-inclusiveness,
25:33let me assure you,
25:35uh,
25:35IIM Rohtak had done,
25:37uh,
25:37uh,
25:38an audit of,
25:39uh,
25:39one of the very important schemes
25:40on pilgrimage and,
25:41uh,
25:42you know,
25:43religious places
25:44to,
25:45to rejuvenate religious scheme,
25:47Prasad scheme of,
25:48uh,
25:48of government of India.
25:49Uska humnay assessment kiya tha.
25:52Us scheme ke tahat,
25:54paise diye gaya hai hai,
25:55money has been given to
25:57religious bodies,
25:59uh,
25:59religious institutions
26:01taankhi moha pae tourism bade
26:02for their infrastructure development.
26:04Aab maanayenge ke money
26:06has been given
26:07to masjids,
26:08money has also been given
26:10to churches,
26:10money has been given
26:11to gurudwaras,
26:12of course money has been
26:13given to temples.
26:15To,
26:15inclusiveness me jib,
26:17this is being done,
26:19I,
26:20I,
26:20let me,
26:21let me,
26:21ek my,
26:21or bada interesting
26:22chiz kata hain,
26:22log inclusiveness ki baat kerti hain,
26:24aab maanayenge eek desh aisa
26:25bataayin,
26:26which is a non-muslim mulk,
26:28jahaan per dhunwa eed ki chutti ho,
26:31ah,
26:31nabhi ke jenam din ki chutti ho,
26:33muharam ki chutti ho,
26:34char gazetted holidays
26:35out of the seventeen,
26:37four are muslim,
26:41eek jaino ki hai,
26:43doh christians ki hai,
26:44toh meri khaas hai,
26:45fifty percent of the holidays
26:47toh minorites ki hai,
26:48setran gazetted holidays hooti ho,
26:50us mein seh,
26:51nearly fifty percent
26:52are those for the minorities,
26:54koum sa desh aisa hai,
26:56and this has not been altered,
26:57this has not been changed,
26:59turkey apne naam ko turkia kar djeta hai,
27:02uske oopar koji global narrative pedal
27:04naihi ho ta,
27:05aapne apne desh ka naam badal ke,
27:07turkey se turkia kar dhia,
27:09india mein agar eek aap street ka naam,
27:11orang zeb street se hٹa kar,
27:13sardar patel street rakh djeta hai,
27:16toh eek global narrative,
27:18and you know,
27:19some of the top western newspapers
27:20start writing about it.
27:22I think, you know,
27:24people are getting tired of this,
27:26I don't think this behoves,
27:28this behoves the stature of those publications,
27:31aisa nahi karna sa.
27:32Abhi aapne aurangzeb sard ki baat ki,
27:37toh merah sawal hemieşha
27:39dunia se yeh hota hai,
27:41joh aurangzeb sard ke naam ke,
27:45bedle jane par,
27:46aitaraz uthaate hai,
27:47mein un sab se yeh jana chahata hoon,
27:50kiya koi mulk,
27:52apne dèish ke,
27:54anndar,
27:56hitler ke naam per,
27:57sard ka naam rakhye ga,
27:59aurangzeb to,
28:00wo shakts ta,
28:02jis ne na siref hindu hoon,
28:03aur sikh hoon ka katliyam kiya,
28:05us ne to apne baap,
28:07apne baayu tak ko nahi baksha,
28:09us ne to,
28:10un tamam musliman loogun ko bhi,
28:12marwa diya,
28:13ya maar diya,
28:14jenhoi ne us ke islami brand se,
28:18aktilaaf kiya,
28:20to is sari,
28:21suratahal me,
28:22hum wazir torpor per dhektae hai,
28:24ke,
28:24humarhe hindu mindset ke anndar,
28:27eek humbleness hai,
28:29dhiraj bai,
28:29us humbleness ki,
28:31wajah se,
28:32hum apnei ownership bhi lena nahi chaathe,
28:36humarhe loog joh amerika me,
28:39yorup ke anndar,
28:40universityyong ko,
28:41edarong ko,
28:42joh charity djetethe hai,
28:44joh grants djetethe hai,
28:46wo us ko bhi materialize nhi kertethe,
28:49wo,
28:49yahi rwiyah rakhte hai,
28:51ke,
28:52chaliyay,
28:52joh ye baat kerenghe,
28:54wo kertethe rhe,
28:55hum ne to apna,
28:57acha karam kiya tha,
28:58is karam ka jwaab,
28:59unhye achha nahi milta,
29:02is manzr namhe ko,
29:03aap kiishe dhekte hai,
29:05is ke sath saath,
29:06mein,
29:06aap se,
29:07ye bhi janna chao ga,
29:09ke,
29:09humarhi community ki,
29:12humarhe diaspora ki,
29:14aur,
29:15amerika ke,
29:16anndar,
29:17rhenne walhe,
29:17joh humarhe,
29:18bade groo hai,
29:19aur,
29:19even,
29:20humarhi,
29:20bharati sarkar ki,
29:22investment,
29:23media ke anndar,
29:24na honne ke berabar hai,
29:26aap dhek lijie,
29:27qatar ka,
29:28aapna,
29:28tv channel hai,
29:29turki ka,
29:29aapna,
29:30tv channel hai,
29:31rashiya ke,
29:31aapna,
29:31tv channels hai,
29:33chin ke,
29:34to,
29:34kai,
29:34tv channels hai,
29:36lekin,
29:36bharati,
29:37itna,
29:37bada,
29:38mulk,
29:39uska,
29:39aapna,
29:40international,
29:41tv channel,
29:42nahi,
29:42humarhi,
29:43humarhi,
29:44investment,
29:45akademia me,
29:47or,
29:48think tank me,
29:48us tarah nahi,
29:49jis tarah honi chahiye,
29:51is ko aap kis nazer se dhekhte hai,
29:53I think strategic communication,
29:56definitely lot of things,
29:58honi chahiye,
29:58bhoat sari chizai honi chahiye,
29:59per,
30:00aapna,
30:00larger,
30:00wohi philosophical question hai,
30:03ahi,
30:03haa ki,
30:04loogun ki,
30:05bharat ke loogun ki,
30:06ek,
30:06thoda sa,
30:07ahi,
30:07yakin aasa hai,
30:08ki,
30:08ham aapni baat kiyo kerein,
30:10humarhi baat,
30:10or loog kerein,
30:12ahi ka zamanah,
30:13juh,
30:13badal gya hai,
30:14wahaan par narratives create kiye jate hai,
30:16narrative develop kiye jate hai,
30:19strategic communication ke oopper,
30:21ahi,
30:21joh,
30:22US batin karta tha,
30:241960s me,
30:25aapko je pata hai,
30:26ke,
30:261960s ke doar me,
30:28jab east block,
30:29or west block ka,
30:31ek cold war ka era chal raha tha,
30:33toh US ke joh,
30:34joh foreign affairs ke bandi thai,
30:36yaa US ki embassies hoti thi,
30:38unka eek mandate hota tha,
30:39kya american film hai,
30:40woha ke loogun ko dikhayin,
30:41so that a want,
30:43a yearning,
30:44for the american way of life is created,
30:46and impressions,
30:48of an exciting,
30:49attractive america is created,
30:51vis-a-vis what is happening in the,
30:52in the east,
30:54so they have been,
30:56at the forefront of narrative creation,
30:59and they have done very well,
31:01apne mulk ke liye,
31:02for their own country,
31:03for the,
31:04for their own culture,
31:05they have done very well,
31:06yahaan,
31:07I agree,
31:08India does not have,
31:10an international channel,
31:12ab dekhye ki,
31:13today,
31:14jermani ka DW,
31:16you know,
31:16RT,
31:17russia ka,
31:18Al Jazeera,
31:18Middle East se,
31:19Qatar based,
31:20CNN hai,
31:21from US,
31:22CNBC,
31:22US,
31:23Fox News,
31:23US se hai,
31:24BBC,
31:25UK se hai,
31:26ah,
31:26yeh sab,
31:27ah,
31:28aaj,
31:28eek,
31:29bhoot,
31:29bade,
31:29bade,
31:30narratives create,
31:30kar rhae hai,
31:31bbc has been at the forefront,
31:33actually,
31:34unhoney to local languages,
31:36may bbc urdu,
31:38or bbc hindi,
31:39ko separate kar diya hai,
31:40so as to cater to a separation between India and Pakistan,
31:44aap yeh dekhye,
31:45urdu,
31:45koon hai,
31:46Pakistan mein jeh urdu bolta hai,
31:47vahaan ki 60% abadi,
31:48panjabi hai,
31:49joh panjabi bolta hai,
31:51aap ne bbc urdu kar diya,
31:53so that to reinforce,
31:55association of urdu with muslims,
31:57india meh bhi yeh galti hain ki hai,
31:58unhoney,
31:59jaga jaga per urdu ki signage karke,
32:02filmo meh joh titles hotate tha,
32:03usko urdu ka use karke,
32:05you have hardened those identities,
32:07which don't exist,
32:08a muslim of Tamil Nadu speaks,
32:10Tamil does not speak Urdu,
32:11a muslim of Kerala speaks,
32:13Malayalam doesn't speak Urdu,
32:14toh why there is an association between Urdu and muslims,
32:18yeh bbc usko,
32:19joh wo karte hai through this,
32:21they have been at the forefront of creating narrative,
32:24DW has been creating documentaries,
32:26bbc has been creating documentaries on social media,
32:29so yes,
32:30I don't know,
32:32I have no answer why this is not being done,
32:34but of course,
32:35I agree with you,
32:37very little is being done,
32:39from a strategic communication standpoint,
32:41but mere khaih sa yeh philosophical,
32:43cheez hai ke,
32:45bhaarat ke loge wo thodi,
32:46abhi bhi thodi hichak hoti hai,
32:48sharam aati hai,
32:48thodi hichkichaat hoti hai,
32:49apni baat kertai huye,
32:51it becomes difficult,
32:53aur isko bhaaraty a culture mein positively bhi nahi liya jata hai,
32:57ek or mein aapko baat bata ho,
32:58if people talk about their achievements,
33:01talk about their accomplishments,
33:03to joh log bhi us ko positively,
33:06thoda kum lete hai,
33:07meri khaih sa shayad yeh hi eek reason ho septa,
33:09mein aapse mutfak hong,
33:11ke eek sahtah phe to yeh bhaat hii khushaind rwiyah hai,
33:15ke charity dhenne walee hath ko bhi pata na chalye,
33:19ke us nye charity dhi hai,
33:21yeh humara classical attitude hai,
33:23mager,
33:24ap aur mein is hakikut ko bhi jantate hai,
33:27ke dunia badal chukyi hai,
33:29ab is social media ke zamane mein,
33:32is capitalism ke dor mein,
33:34aapko kuch chizou ko aapne hath mein rukhna pardta hai,
33:40kea aap semajtate hai,
33:42ke hume ab is international trade attitude ko bhi apne anndar lana ho ga,
33:49ke hum bhi chin ki tarha,
33:52roos ki tarha, west ki tarha,
33:55middle east ke ameer mulkon ki tarha,
33:58yeh tawakkur rakhheen,
33:59yeh hume adharo se,
34:01un mulkon ke anndar investment karte hoi,
34:05ke joh hum laga rheye hai,
34:07hume us ka kuch na kuch silah bhi milna chahiye.
34:10Keh humari weakness bhi hai,
34:11yeh humari strength bhi hai,
34:13aapne etnhi achsi baat kehi,
34:15taata ne harvard university ko payse dhi hai,
34:17millions of dollars,
34:19millions,
34:20humare haryana ke jindal group ne,
34:23university of Texas Dallas ka joh business school hai,
34:26wo jindal sahab ke madr ke nama pe hai,
34:28you know, savitri jindal school of business kahti hain usse,
34:32uske baad,
34:33aise sacro schools hai,
34:36johan per indians ne millions of dollars dhi hai,
34:39indian government ne,
34:41Cambridge university me,
34:43india chair establish ki hai,
34:46par meri khayal se,
34:47yeh indian attitude aisa tha,
34:49mein aapko bata raha ho,
34:49kiwunki loog achse hai,
34:50wo suchti hai,
34:51sab loog achse hai,
34:52unhau nne kubhi ki reciprocity ka agreement nne kia kisi kisat,
34:55ki meh mein tumhari yeh funding kar raha ho,
34:57iske awaz meh mujhe yeh chahiye,
34:59unhau nne ka,
35:00humne fund kar diya,
35:01joh bandha usse chalaye ga,
35:02sachche dil se chalaye ga,
35:03larger joh mandate hai,
35:04usko follow kar ega,
35:06whereas China,
35:08or even for that matter US,
35:10wo jis chiz ki fund karte hai na,
35:12to there is a,
35:13there is a reciprocity expected,
35:16ke agar humne yeh laga ya hai,
35:19to humehi iske awaz meh kya milega,
35:22I believe that in the litigious,
35:27materialistic,
35:29and reward seeking era in which we are living today,
35:36yeh bhoot zhruri ho gya hai,
35:38ke bharat jab aisi investments karay future,
35:42toh uske awaz meh kuch maangayin,
35:45revolution johan na,
35:47wo academia se start hootie ha,
35:49wo think tank se start hootie ha,
35:51jab the nineteen nineties ke beginning meh,
35:56jab russia meh eek revolution hoi,
35:59jiske tahit bolsheviks,
36:02joh power meh a,
36:04a, zahr ko hٹa diya gya,
36:05communism a gya,
36:07socialism keheti ha,
36:08socialism a gya,
36:09toh large number of chair professorships were sponsored during that next twenty to thirty year period in Maine, Europe as well as in UK,
36:21joh ki is thought ko of the left promote karein,
36:26india meh bhi aise institutions hain,
36:28joh joh ek left ke thought ko promote kareti hain,
36:31einh, a, yeh yeh, yeh, yeh ek narrative create karati кон� fruit,
36:36bus hon crackers,
36:36bada strong narrative paddle karati thi inventions,
36:38a, yeh,
36:39usse loogun ka ek viewpoint bantat tha,
36:42revolutions hoiux yesu,
36:44par,
36:45aa,
36:46us role ko,
36:48academic ke role ko,
36:49ya think tank ke role ko,
36:51bharat nė kabhi China yaan,
36:54india nė kabhi ba,
36:55agar,
36:56you know,
36:57we don't give endowments and create you know
37:26a mandate and objectives
37:29charity concept
37:31this region
37:32North India region
37:33if you have a community
37:36West Share community
37:37they will make
37:40this whole North India
37:43and all of them are charitable
37:45and I think
37:46they will never
37:48wish
37:48that
37:49the biggest example
37:55of that
37:55is also the city of Lahore
37:57Lahore
37:58Lahore
37:58Lahore
37:58Lahore
38:02Lahore is a cultural city
38:05but let me assure
38:07all the viewers here
38:09that Lahore city
38:10was not a Muslim dominated city
38:12as a matter of fact
38:13it was a Hindu city
38:13Kairzabh
38:14we will back
38:15there
38:16in Lahore
38:17Lahore
38:17there were 3 or 4 families
38:19there were not
38:20there were 2 friends
38:23who are thinkers
38:24who are
38:26who are
38:27who are
38:28who are
38:29who are
38:29again, a very big person, Sir Ganga Ram, he was so charitable. Sir Ganga Ram has never expected
38:41that he could return. Sir Ganga Ram has been in the hospital in India and Delhi. He has
38:53given me charity. So this is a cultural phenomenon that while the West
39:02endows a chair and expects something, our concept of charity, our
39:08thing is that we give it to ourselves. We give it to ourselves.
39:12We give it to ourselves. We give it to ourselves.
39:14Charity is our concept of charity. We give it to ourselves, but we
39:21have to do some work in China style. Because we have to do some work
39:28that we have to do some work. Because we have to do some work
39:33that we are giving it. So what will we get from it? You talked about
39:36Lahore. I was born in Sir Ganga Ram hospital. Professor
39:41Dhiraj. Lahore, Lord Ram's son is made of love. I was living in
39:47Khrishan Nagar. I was living in India in Khrishan Nagar. I was living in
39:52India in Khrishan Nagar. I was living in a Suri building in Khrishan Nagar.
39:59It was a Hindu village. And I think that there was a Muslim building in that
40:03whole area. There was a Muslim building which was the name of Saraj building.
40:08. Yeah, this is a Muslim building. You see this. It was a Muslim building.
40:17You see, I was living in Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
40:18We're in Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
40:21in Pakistan occupied Kashmir
40:24in Kashmir
40:25in Kashmir
40:27in the local leaders
40:28made a video log
40:30and in the vlog
40:34in the local leaders
40:36in Kashmir
40:38in Kashmir
40:39in Kashmir
40:39in the local leaders
40:41here are 14 or 15
40:42and there are only 2
40:45and there were a Hindu dominated
40:47and there were a peace
40:49and there were a peace
40:53in the world
40:54and there were a peace
40:57and there were a peace
40:59and there were a peace
41:01to see
41:01so
41:03these narratives
41:06when they were made
41:07these false narratives
41:09these
41:09these
41:11Pakistan's
41:12their
41:13social media
41:17the power of the knowledge in the palm of the hands of the people.
41:30When this knowledge comes, people have realized that this false narrative
41:37that the Pakistanis and Hindustanians are not going to be the enemy of the people.
41:44And this animosity has been peddled by the leaders of Pakistan,
41:50by the military narratives, which are ISPR and all of them,
41:55who are peddled, actually doesn't exist.
41:58There are many things in history.
42:01There are many crualities, many good things.
42:05But from one-sided view, the false narratives are now getting clear
42:14and I am hoping that over a period of time, it will be more clear.
42:19One of those false narratives is now that which is Pakistan's army's contribution to Pakistan.
42:27I can sadly tell you that the data speaks otherwise.
42:30It is quite evident that a person called Shahid Islam, Shahid Aslam, Shahid Aslam,
42:38a journalist who wrote a newspaper article with one of the generals,
42:44he analyzed the income tax returns and analyzed the article and arrested him.
42:49He also said that the journalist who wrote a narrative of how the sacrifices of the officers of the Pakistan army
43:04are actually not really sacrifices.
43:06They are taking a lion's share of Pakistan's economic resources.
43:11The most important example is that the average GDP proportion of the defense spent is around 2.2%.
43:23Pakistan's army's share of the GDP is around 4%.
43:29Almost double that of an average.
43:32By the way, the Indian defense's share of the GDP is around 1.6-1.7%.
43:38For such a large country, having borders with multiple countries and not-so-friendly countries,
43:48yet the portion of the GDP is around 1.6-1.7%.
43:53Pakistan's average is around 4.87%, 4.88%, 4.88%, 8-9%.
43:59It is around 3.4%.
44:01The global average is around 2.2%.
44:04This is a reflection that these false narratives are the ones that we have to do.
44:12I think there are many people who are working on India.
44:16They are working on India.
44:17They are working on them.
44:18They have invested so much in the strategic narrative creation.
44:22They are already working on them.
44:24They are working on their own people.
44:26They are working on them.
44:4198-99
44:42India has not initiated
44:47enough and all the four wars
44:51Pakistan has lost on account of not having
44:54achieved their objective.
44:5648-man objective
44:57was that they will take Kashmir, but they will not take it.
45:01And they have to go to Kashmir. Three-fourths of Kashmir
45:03remains within India.
45:05After that, in 65-man objective
45:08that they have to come to Delhi.
45:11They lost close to
45:151800 square kilometers of territory.
45:17India only lost close to 300 or 400
45:19square kilometers. Four times the territory
45:21lose her. And all of that was returned
45:23by India.
45:25All of them was returned.
45:26Aaj tuk criticism
45:28hoota hai haji peer pass ko kya
45:30haji peer pass se sabse zahda
45:32infiltration in India mein hoorti liya.
45:34Or India nai tooth and nail se fight
45:36karke
45:36General Dayal unko
45:40wapis kar diya.
45:43Seventy one mein
45:45again
45:46one crore people from Bangladesh
45:49refugees India
45:50aak roote.
45:52Or every second day
45:54there was firing at the border.
45:57Finally, you know, India had to intervene
45:59and Western Front
46:01joh hai wutu Pakistan
46:02ne khola
46:02kyi eastern front
46:03pressure a gya
46:03to Western Front Pakistan
46:05ne khol dhi.
46:05Again, they lost.
46:07Bangla desh chala gaya.
46:08Ninety eight, ninety nine
46:09me again
46:10the same objective
46:12kye khali joh peaks
46:13johki summer time
46:14me
46:14aak mohaidah
46:15hoota tha
46:15aak agreement
46:16hoota tha
46:16kye bhi sab loog
46:18apne
46:18apne
46:18because
46:19restaurant
46:20recuperation
46:20kar lenge
46:21professional soldiers
46:22oopper
46:22chalye jayengi
46:23ki ki waha phe
46:23frostbite
46:24aur yye
46:25aur sari
46:25bimariya
46:26hooti
46:26hai
46:26thund
46:27ki wajah
46:27se
46:27woh
46:28khali
46:29peaks
46:29ko
46:29occupy
46:30kar lya
46:30gya
46:31aur
46:31on khali
46:32peaks
46:32ko
46:32pher
46:33bharat
46:34ko
46:34jb
46:34cover
46:35mili
46:35kya
46:35sasya
46:35ho
46:36gya
46:36and
46:37they
46:37have
46:37an
46:37intent
46:37or
46:38us
46:38wakt
46:39we
46:39false
46:39narrative
46:40yye
46:40padll
46:40kia
46:40gya
46:40kya
46:41kya
46:41kya
46:41kya
46:41kya
46:41kya
46:43kya
46:43baad
46:43me
46:43unhi
46:44mjahid
46:44ko
46:45ptah
46:45laga
46:45ke
46:45unhi
46:46special
46:46courses
46:47ke
46:47officers
46:47norton
46:48light
46:48infantry
46:49ke
46:49soldiers
46:50and
46:50officers
46:51and
46:51kitnے
46:52loggon
46:52ko
46:52unki
46:53bodies
46:53claim
46:54ni
46:54kya
46:54kya
46:54kya
46:54kya
46:55kya
46:56kya
46:56kya
46:57kya
46:57kya
46:57kya
47:01kya
47:01kya
47:01kya
47:01kya
47:01kya
47:03kya
47:04kya
47:04kya
47:05kya
47:06kya
47:06kya
47:08kya
47:08kya
47:09kya
47:10kya
47:11kya
47:12kya
47:12kya
47:13kya
47:39kya
47:40kya
47:40kya
47:41kya
47:42We never took a territory. Never.
47:57It would have been very easy for India to cross the L.O.C.
48:03They have not taken. We have no interest.
48:12Now, I will tell you so much that Bangladesh has created a country in seventy-one.
48:19They have a chicken neck.
48:22The area that connects with North East.
48:27Did India take the territory from Bangladesh to the chicken neck?
48:33Was Bangladesh a position to say no to India at that point in time?
48:37India never did that.
48:38We are not interested in the territory of our people.
48:41We are rightly interested in only our territory.
48:44That, I believe, is the strongest point.
48:48And that's why I think strategic communication should happen.
48:51But we are not going to penalize the way other countries have been doing.
48:55We are not going to penalize the way.
48:56We are not going to penalize the way.
48:58We are not going to penalize the way.
49:00But we are not going to penalize the way.
49:01And I believe that that we are going to penalize the way to say no.
49:03which is a good way to get a good conversation.
49:08And that is the good conversation.
49:12And that's why Pakistan has pushed me.
49:16The only way to talk about this is the only way to talk.
49:20That's what the right way to talk about this is.
49:23That they have been doing this way.
49:27And that's why Pakistan has pushed us.
49:29That they would be pushed us.
49:31So here's how we have a conversation with professor.
49:34If you have a conclusion remarks, please give us a comment.
49:41I just want to give a comment.
49:45I want to say that data is that Pakistan, India and Bangladesh
49:49have been in the same year.
49:51Bangladesh has been by the way.
49:54There are only two years in America that they have negative growth rate.
49:57One year is 1972.
50:00It is a demonstrable evidence that if you develop your own industry, you will develop your internal resources, infrastructure, then you will go further.
50:26It is a different league altogether.
50:34It is a different league.
50:42It is a different league.
50:50It is a different league.
50:56It is a different league.
51:02It is a different league.
51:04It is a different league.
51:06It is a different league.
51:08It is a different league.
51:12It is a different league.
51:14It is a different league.
51:16It is a different league.
51:18It is a different league.
51:19It is different league.
51:20Then you will have a different league.
51:24...
51:27...
51:31...
51:35...
51:41...
51:45...
51:47...
51:49...
51:53in the interest of Pakistan to develop a harmonious relationship with India.
52:20They should try to develop a harmonious relationship with India
52:39and they should try to develop a harmonious relationship with India.
52:44But not at the expense of creating again a high enough growth rate and surplus so that they wage a war.
52:51Those are my concluding remarks. Thank you, Gora sir. Thank you. Thank you.
52:58Thank you very much.
53:05Thank you very much.
53:12Thank you very much.
53:16Thank you very much.
53:22Thank you very much.
53:24all bharat ne itni tereki ki ki or kaise ki or paakistan ki yun itna pichhe raha gaya
53:32us ka bada karen mindset ka hai.
53:35Aaj ki baat chit meres saath or professor Dereh Sharma ji ke saath dekhne sunne ka
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