Madison McElwain and Claudia Laurie, co-founders of The Room podcast, joined Forbes Talks to chat about the shifting landscape entrepreneurs are encountering. The 30 Under 30 Alums examine the evolving creator economy, acknowledging its newfound accessibility while highlighting the need for sustained conviction. And they touch on the consolidation trend in the startup ecosystem post-COVID.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Like it doesn't really get easier. You still have to convince people that you're worth the listen.
00:04And I think that's really what's been powerful about our story resonating with others.
00:08Hopefully there's that kind of dual inspiration moment of like we're all hustling out here too.
00:15Hi everyone, it's Alex York. I'm an editor at Forbes and we are here with Madison McElwain
00:20and Claudia Laurie, the co-founders of The Room podcast. Thank you guys so much for joining me.
00:24Thanks for having us.
00:25Thanks for having us.
00:26I'm so excited to get into so many different topics today, but first I want to start with some rapid fire to warm us up a little bit.
00:32My first question for you, what's a business trend that you are loving right now?
00:36I think there's a lot of consolidation happening in the ecosystem, which is especially interesting
00:40given kind of all of the startups that have come out from COVID and where they're going now.
00:45On the flip side, I think it's easier than ever to be a creator online and offline.
00:48And so I'm really excited about the person who's thinking about starting their own thing.
00:51Yeah, I love that. My next question, what is a company that is winning right now in your eyes, whatever that means?
00:58We had two incredible guests on the podcast recently, a young startup called Factory AI.
01:04You know, Ray's and Matan Grinberg, the co-founders, they're building and kind of AI sort of code development space.
01:10And they were really impressive. Really exciting.
01:14I think Claudia and I stride the line between we love consumer startups and deep technical startups.
01:18I'm going to give both answers. First, Vercel and Next.js are doing really interesting things in front-end web development and with AI.
01:25And then on the consumer side, Poppy's big acquisition, absolutely obsessed.
01:29I think that's really a fascinating story too. So those two.
01:32I think it's so interesting. We can get into this, like the consumer conversation, but I feel like for the past couple years, it's been like consumers dead.
01:37There's no money there. No one is succeeding. And I feel like the past couple months have been like a total flip in the other direction.
01:44Completely.
01:45My next rapid fire question, thoughts on venture backing. Do we need it? Should founders be focused on that? Is it a waste of time right now?
01:53I think the most important question is to ask yourself, what is the exit profile I want for this company?
01:57There has been this glorization of being a founder and you can speak to that.
02:01That kind of puts the return profile in the backseat to what the expectations are when you take venture capital.
02:07The point is to have a billion-dollar outcome. And if that's not the journey you're signing up for, it's a really smart question to be asking.
02:14Of course, I am long venture capital as an asset class and we can totally talk about that too.
02:18I think especially, you know, with the sort of vintage of companies coming out of 2020, 2021, it was almost you had to raise venture capital to be successful,
02:27partly because it was so much easier to raise.
02:29I think the big stumbling block is when founders assume they have to raise venture and they don't ever ask themselves that question.
02:36And then there's also a question, do you need to continue raising venture? And maybe that's not necessarily the case.
02:41So I think just some thoughtfulness around whether to raise or not to raise.
02:46Totally. Along those same lines, is there anything that you think too many founders are focused on right now that might be, you know,
02:51overly emphasized or not really where people's minds should be and they're missing other parts of their business because of it?
02:56That's a great question. I think especially in the AI sort of ecosystem, there's a lot of talk around what is your competitive moat?
03:06How do you deepen that moat? How do you train your models? How do you build foundational models?
03:10And people are sort of thinking, well, the AI application layer may not be so defensible.
03:15I actually think where a lot of the differentiation will happen will be on the go-to-market side.
03:20And that's currently a little bit overlooked.
03:22I will also just add that I think some businesses haven't pivoted to seeing the new way of the world because we don't actually know what it's going to look like.
03:29And especially in e-commerce, the product detail page, for example, like who knows if that's going to even be the place you go to check out and buy anything.
03:36And so any business that maybe is building for the checkout page, like that is a question you need to be asking internally.
03:43Like where is your business going to live in the future?
03:46And I just use that one example because both of us were working in e-commerce infrastructure and Claudia's company was in that.
03:51Like you need to be thinking like into a future that doesn't exist yet.
03:54Right. And I think that's especially with like Gen Z coming up in the workforce, in the startup industry, like so many things are changing and it's, you know, we're having to almost like really, really push for these other notions to be considered or like different ways of working to really be taken seriously right now.
04:12Last rapid fire question.
04:14What is, since you guys are podcast hosts, what's either a podcast, a newsletter, a book, some sort of resource that you think all emerging people should be looking at right now?
04:22Well, besides the room podcast, plug.
04:26Gosh, it's hard because I feel like so many things are mainstream now.
04:29Like I don't know if I have a good niche podcast for you.
04:32I am very impressed with Alex Cooper's pivot into being a more serious business outlet.
04:37I mean, I both was, of course, watching her Rachel Kirkconnell video that went viral, but then also, of course, like her Kamala Harris interview.
04:44And I think having somewhere where you can go for your girl talk, but also your hard facts is like a really helpful platform.
04:49And we really love that energy.
04:50I think like in the podcast ecosystem, especially in tech, like Lenny's podcast are all in.
04:56I think what's really interesting is the events combination with that, which we've been doing a lot of.
05:01And so I think like pivoting resources away from stuff that's merely written or sort of audio to like things that you can engage with in the physical world is something that folks are leaning into since 2020.
05:13I also have to give a shout out to Substackers.
05:15I think that is really a place for just, again, more like niche business content.
05:20My best friend just started her Substack and like watching her already get a lot of traction just by promoting it over the last two or three months is a really interesting hub.
05:28So if you're looking for a really specific topic, I would actually search Substack before I would search Google right now.
05:33Yeah, I love that.
05:34I want to talk about the event space and how, you know, these different kind of mediums are coming together and you guys survived the rapid fire.
05:41So good on that.
05:42But I want to get into now what you guys are doing.
05:45First of all, in New York, you guys have an event that is coming up for New York Tech Week for The Room podcast.
05:50Before we get into like the details of that, I want to know about The Room podcast.
05:54How did this podcast come to be?
05:56How did you guys become co-hosts?
05:58Oh, my gosh.
05:59Well, this is a very fun story.
06:00So we both graduated college in 2018 and we had a mutual friend connect us, just thought we would have vibes.
06:06We totally had vibes and were product managers at the time.
06:09And over the course of two years, realized that we knew we wanted to start something together, but weren't exactly sure what the inception moment would be.
06:16We actually had a conference idea in 2019.
06:19Good thing we didn't start that because 2020 hit right around the corner.
06:22And as I was becoming a full-time investor in venture and Claudia was becoming a founder, we realized that the resources, to your point, about where we wanted to get information, either were just not geared towards our generation or were mostly people who had already made it.
06:37And we were like, we want to hear from those who were in the room but also have really genuine questions that are tactical.
06:44Like, how did you get your first customer?
06:47How did you get your first check?
06:48Like, what is a go-to-market strategy?
06:50And not like, oh, I've made it.
06:51I've gone public all the time.
06:53Like, let's get into the nitty-gritty.
06:54And so that was really the inception.
06:56And it was also the easiest time ever to get people online recording virtually.
07:01And we had a little bit of extra free time being stuck at home.
07:03So that was nearly five years ago.
07:05And now we've had over 12 seasons, 120 episodes, and Fortune 500 CEOs, two startup founders, I think that are about $100 billion in valuation, kind of enterprise value, which for us just is a testament to getting to work hard at something over time.
07:22It doesn't happen overnight, but also both of us to get to be inspired by bringing more people into the room where it happens, which Claudia alluded to.
07:30But now it's really a full kind of three-pronged strategy of online, offline, and then kind of also getting to have the community itself be a part of that.
07:38And I think one other interesting lens to the podcast, and it's really rooted in our founder story, is I'm the founder.
07:46Madison's the funder.
07:47Madison was actually the first institutional yes into my pre-seed round when I decided to leave big tech.
07:54And through the podcast, I actually just recently exited my startup.
07:59We've been able to ask the questions that I really needed answered as we went through this growth journey.
08:04And Madison, as you know, you've seen so many companies and you've kind of gone through the venture life cycle, you were able to sit on the other side of the table and ask those questions.
08:13And so we were coming from such an authentic place of like, hey, we're looking to invest in this space.
08:18We're looking to build.
08:19What are the challenges that you can actually like walk us through so we can understand how to come up on those challenges ourselves?
08:26Who is your target demographic for the podcast today?
08:29Yeah, I would say the next generation of entrepreneur, whether it's folks that are, you know, raising their first round of venture funding, whether it's folks that are, you know, in big tech and they're thinking about leaving, you know, kids in college that are wondering, you know, how do I build this idea that I have?
08:48As well as, you know, early stage investors, first time fund managers, really generally the overall tech ecosystem.
08:57So who's going to be leading the tech industry in the next 10 years?
09:00That's who we're speaking to.
09:01Are there any sections of or like phases of building a brand or finding funding or whatever it might be that you feel like most young founders are struggling with right now or like topics on the podcast that you think are most important for them to be learning in today's day and age?
09:15Yeah, I think you asked some questions just around fundraising.
09:18Definitely think this has been a really hard fundraising environment, honestly, both for the investors.
09:23The LP market is very locked up, but also for the end founder.
09:26If you're not an AI company, that's one thing.
09:29Even if you are an AI company, I think what people aren't talking about is like if you're not selling a big enough vision, you're still hearing a lot of no's.
09:36And in a zero interest rate environment, it was probably easier than working a day job to start a company.
09:41And venture capital was allocating a lot.
09:44And so that's really one of the conversations I think that's been really helpful is to get into the weeds on how did you get that soft fundraise going and then ultimately getting that first round across the conversations with all of our guests who mostly have raised millions and millions of venture dollars.
09:59I think to add to that, because fundraising is not as easy as it was, a lot of companies are thinking through sort of their existential next steps.
10:09And so a lot of my founder friends are starting to think through, OK, do we want to get acquired?
10:13How does that actually happen?
10:15And I think there's a lot that happens behind closed doors that people never really talk transparently about.
10:20And each scenario is so different.
10:22And so being able to kind of tease apart, when does that make sense?
10:25What does that actually look like?
10:27How do you go about running that kind of process with founders that have sold companies and multiple companies has been really helpful.
10:33I'll just add on that one guest we had on a few seasons ago, the founders of Stitch, which is a security company.
10:38They mentioned like through an acquisition they had just had, like, how did this come about?
10:42And I sure forget them saying, well, it's really hard to buy a company if you don't know it's for sale.
10:46And that's this hard tension, right, because you don't want to say, hi, like, I'm for sale.
10:51But you do need to let a few people know that with the right price and the right alignment, you would be willing.
10:56And so to your point, that's a little bit where I think these first-time founders are asking, what's an M&A process look like?
11:02How do I let the right people know I'm for sale?
11:04Everyone's talking, you know, good companies are bought and not sold.
11:08Tactically, what does that mean?
11:09And I think there's a lot of sort of gray space there.
11:11Yeah.
11:11Throughout your journey building this podcast, having all sorts of founders and CEOs and other business leaders on different episodes,
11:20has there been a particular episode or a particular guest or a particular conversation that you feel like has made a big difference
11:25in, like, what you feel the mission of the show is or the conversations that you're having or the impact that that's had on others?
11:31Okay, I have two.
11:32You know, when we started this, it was really a mom-and-pop project, right?
11:36Like, we begged everyone who would listen to be on the podcast and our first-season guest, thank you, because we didn't know what we were doing.
11:42It was also deep COVID.
11:44And just a lot of people took a leap of faith on us.
11:46Around Season 3, though, I think we felt confident enough in our interview skills and the just momentum that this could be something more than just a side hustle.
11:55And that's really what it is today.
11:56But in terms of that Season 3, I think that was really one of our pivot seasons.
12:00We had Michelle Zatlin of Cloudflare on, obviously an incredibly successful CEO or COO and founder of Cloudflare.
12:06And then we had Ciara, like, the pop star and R&B vocalist, Grammy Award winning on.
12:12And that one, I think, added this layer of legitimacy.
12:14Both of those guests, very different people, but the fact that we could interview both of them helped us get the confidence.
12:19And Ciara said something about her own journey of starting her own record label, which she did out of not being able to get one of her albums made because a record label just didn't want to pick it up.
12:29So she's really an entrepreneur, too.
12:30She goes, you know, you have to play the game to change the game.
12:33And that stuck with me.
12:36Because I think a lot of the times when we look at being women in tech, you're forced into situations where you might be like, you know, this isn't my zone of genius.
12:44Like, I don't really know if I want to be here, but I'm happy to be here because I think it'll move the ball forward.
12:50And for us, when we started the podcast, Alex Cooper's content was not really geared towards business at all.
12:55And frankly, there was, well, it hadn't even started.
12:58So it was really early days of getting started in the next generation of media.
13:02And we felt like there should be more female voices doing that, too.
13:05And so in that end, I would say, like, playing the game to change the game has been a key one for me.
13:09I think the other piece, just on, like, the women in tech point, I think there's an assumption that female founders are consumer founders and female investors are consumer investors.
13:18And I think the growth and the types of guests we've had has really evolved over the past few years.
13:25We had Johnny Ho, one of the co-founders of Perplexity on the podcast, Guillermo from Vercel on Next.js.
13:31And being able to have conversations more about, you know, foundational AI, you know, developer tools, more kind of, like, infrastructure-driven conversations, I think is really important to show that women can have these conversations and lead these conversations as well.
13:47How are you guys continuing to stand out in such a crowded media landscape?
13:51There's a new podcast, I feel like, that pops up every day about, you know, in a ton of different categories, but in the business industry and in the business space, like, so many people want to talk about these things.
13:59How do you continue to stand out?
14:01Well, we're really lucky, I think, we have this combination of our event strategy.
14:06We like to call it offline to online and or IRL to URL, vice versa.
14:11The generation that we're all in genuinely finds people first online, whether it be partners, whether it be business co-founders or investors.
14:19There's just this first touch moment that you need to be accessible digitally, but only in person do we believe really meaningful connections happen.
14:27And so to that end, we really have this superpower, supercharged event strategy.
14:32You mentioned our event tonight, which we're doing for New York Tech Week.
14:35We're really excited to interview the CEO of Partiful and founder.
14:38We did our first Inside Summit last year, which you got to help moderate a panel for.
14:42And by the way, to further my point, I just DM'd you on LinkedIn as our first touch point after you were one of the editors on the list.
14:49And so even that, I think, just shows what happens organically on this kind of URL to IRL motion.
14:56And the Inside Summit is, I think, one of our hallmark platforms today of standing out and saying conferences are evolving.
15:03You don't really want to go to your dad's technology conference.
15:06You wanted to have a barista bar and you kind of wanted to have people that look and sound like you.
15:10And so that's something we really try to take care to do is host thoughtful events that amplify this strategy of really meaningful conversations.
15:18And we've had so many folks come to us and say, well, you know, actually, I met this person and we're talking about whether we would be a good fit as a co-founder pair.
15:27Or I got this customer through this natural friendship that we built at Inside Summit.
15:32Or I hired this person that I met.
15:34And I think having those real-world outcomes grounded in meetings and conversations that don't feel like an outbound SDR kind of cold call situation is so important because people want to do business in an authentic way.
15:48And I also give a shout-out, too, to our sponsors.
15:50We have Mercury and Perkins QE, which is a bank and a law firm.
15:54And just, like, they want to do business in this way, too, right?
15:57Like, they're recognizing first-time founders are not going to just pick a bank online.
16:01They're going to meet people.
16:02They're going to get to know who they are.
16:03Same with lawyers.
16:04So it's really cool to see, like, not just the founders themselves, but the ecosystem kind of behind this shift.
16:10And how is The Room Podcast making money today?
16:12You mentioned sponsors there.
16:13What's, like, the pitch for these sponsors?
16:15I feel like some people in the media industry are, like, struggling to make money right now.
16:19Why are you guys the right, like, investment for those partners?
16:22What does that look like?
16:22Yeah, well, you can talk about this having a revenue-generating company.
16:25But I think, in general, when thinking about revenue and alignment, it's all about kind of how you bring the people to the table.
16:31I just like to call it the win-win-win strategy.
16:33So when it comes to why we partner with certain brands, it's because they see value in the audience that we attract.
16:38And they're willing to make a commitment at a dollar amount to actually make that happen, both supporting the company itself through, like, kind of classic ad revenue, but then also a commitment to support the events that we host.
16:49So we really have the Inside Summit, for example, New York Tech Week will be back in SF Tech Week in the fall.
16:54And that just is a rising tide that we believe lifts all boats because we get to do some of the heavy lifting and having our audience be gathering kind of on behalf of these companies.
17:02But they're not having to put their face on, like, so many tech events that, you know, for example, they're oversaturated.
17:08And that really has worked out well for us.
17:10I love that.
17:11What is the goal with the podcast?
17:13Because compared to someone like Alex Cooper, who, you know, has a $125 million deal and is doing really the podcast full-time, you guys just graduated from Harvard Business School, just sold your company, have other, you know, investments, other jobs that you guys are working on.
17:27So I assume you have slightly different goals than, like, the straight-up podcast route.
17:32But what is the goal with the podcast?
17:33Where do you hope to go with this?
17:34I think, you know, not to sound cheesy, but we're really just getting started with the podcast.
17:39And I think, you know, exiting the company and having gone through that life cycle, I'm really excited to now have more headspace to invest more deeply in the podcast and see how we can kind of take the seed that we planted and really grow and scale it.
17:52It is such an interesting time in sort of the startup ecosystem.
17:55It's such an interesting time to be building.
17:57It's easier to be building than ever.
17:59And we're just really excited to think through what are the different ways we can support this ecosystem, whether through, you know, be through angel investing or advising, putting events together, creating content.
18:11We really just want to be a resource for this generation of startups.
18:15What has been the biggest challenge, though?
18:16Because I feel like with all these changes, you know, there are so many things you have to consider.
18:21What's been the biggest challenge in that growth?
18:23I will actually say I think go-to-market is the biggest challenge.
18:26As you alluded to, there is an oversaturation of content on the Internet.
18:29How do you know quality from quantity?
18:31And having to be sure that we're telling the right stories that our listeners actually want to hear, that they'll show up week after week, is a really high bar.
18:38People are busy.
18:39Their time is very, very valuable.
18:40And so I would say that challenge has persisted for us really since the inception, when we were nobody, when we were a little bit of somebody, then we were actually somebody.
18:49Like, it doesn't really get easier.
18:50You still have to convince people that you're worth the listen.
18:53And I think that's really what's been powerful about our story resonating with others.
18:57Hopefully there's that kind of dual inspiration moment of, like, we're all hustling out here, too.
19:01But I think you raise a good point around just, like, where is the future of media going?
19:05And I'm actually curious to get your take, too, of course, with, like, the hallmark of media with Forbes.
19:10You know, we noticed on our media list that we were one of two indie podcasts, right?
19:15Like, not a part of a syndicate.
19:17And I will say that kind of made us think, like, should we be joining a larger network?
19:21Like, is that where Reach is today?
19:25Is it, like, through YouTube, which, by the way, is actually the most listened-to platform for podcasts right now over Spotify and Apple?
19:31Apple is actually the third listened-to platform.
19:34So there's been just, like, really interesting shifts, even in the five years since we've been, quote-unquote, podcasters, to where people are looking for their media.
19:41Yeah, I found that conversation really interesting.
19:43I just interviewed Stephen Bartlett of The Diary of a CEO for a recent profile on him.
19:47And that was a huge part of the story is that he had, you know, deals to join these other, like, media conglomerates, radio companies, whatnot.
19:54And he has decided to not go that route because he wants to continue building on his own.
19:59And I think that there's been such a big push toward becoming, you know, getting that paycheck or the dollar figure, which is great and obviously supports a lot of what people are building.
20:09And I think this comes into, like, selling a company, too, which I want to talk about as well with, you know, having just sold yours.
20:15Because I feel like there's such a big pressure and focus and emphasis put on, like, becoming part of that or getting acquired or, you know, having your podcast be a part of something larger.
20:24But in some ways, like, it can be a little bit easier and you can be more nimble and you can, like, experiment a little bit more if you are independent, you know?
20:32Well, I'll just add one more point on the content and then I want to hear, of course, more about your story there.
20:36I, like, it's interesting what goes around comes around, right?
20:38Like, podcasts were this radio parallel on the internet and then now everyone is telling us we need to be in video.
20:44And we're kind of like, isn't that the point?
20:45Like, podcasts are podcasts.
20:47And so thinking about how, like, linear television maybe has an opportunity given how much they're thinking through video-first content and already had that infrastructure is just something I think really interesting.
20:57And we're even doing this on video, right?
20:59And so, like, where things are continuing to evolve is, yeah, just a fun thing to think about and, like, how this confluence of media, whether it be audio-only plus video plus written word, is just, like, really an exciting time.
21:13What mediums are you guys sharing this content on today?
21:17Where are most of your audience members coming from?
21:19It's a great question.
21:20We just launched video a couple of seasons ago.
21:23Historically, we've been audio-only.
21:25But I think the video has been such an unlock because you can actually see the people that we're talking about and you can get to know us a little bit more on a different level.
21:33And so we've seen a big spike in just video watches.
21:37We still have not figured out TikTok.
21:39Yeah.
21:39But maybe one day.
21:40Well, that's hard because Claudia and I, we have fun, right?
21:42Like, we have, you mentioned, like, I graduated HBS last week.
21:45Such a big week.
21:46Now we're here with you.
21:47I mean, we like to think we live fun lives, but, like, I don't know if we're ready to be, like, the face of TikTok on it, too.
21:53There's this delicate balance today of going viral because of who you are and because of what you're building.
21:59And I think, to your point, we're not quite ready to, like, be the face of the podcast ourselves other than, like, what we have today.
22:05Because I don't know if we want to put more of our lives online than we already have.
22:08I already feel like I'm chronically on LinkedIn.
22:10Our guests are the star of the show.
22:11Yeah, no, I know.
22:12I don't know.
22:13I'm curious how you feel about that as, like, also an interviewer.
22:15We think about it a lot, too, because I feel like, again, as we were mentioning earlier, there's a necessary shift to, like, new forms of doing business, of getting content out there.
22:24But I think that a lot of founders have this question of, like, do I be the face of it?
22:28How have you guys gone about, both with the podcast but with other things you're doing, deciding, like, what do I share about myself?
22:34How do I tell my story without making it about me?
22:37Especially, Claudia, as you're, like, building, you know, a startup, how has that conversation been in your own mind?
22:42Totally. It's been tricky, right?
22:44Because I think historically I've always been the type that's, like, well, let's let the work speak for itself.
22:49Like, what my story is doesn't really matter.
22:52And I think as we've kind of moved in this more kind of creator-first economy, you as a founder is such, like, it's such a big part of your go-to-market.
23:02I remember, like, posting from, like, the private LinkedIn account and, like, no one would engage.
23:06And then as soon as I would post from my own LinkedIn, that's when, you know, the lead gen would actually happen.
23:12And so I think it's actually strategic for there to be a personal brand.
23:15But you don't want it to be so early on in the journey where that becomes the identity of the company.
23:19So I don't think I have a great answer for, like, when the right time is.
23:23But I think as long as you're being authentic, you're being true to your mission, showing a little bit more of that sort of personality and rawness and just sort of, like, intimacy around what you're building and what it's like.
23:37People are longing for that connection and sort of that mission.
23:40One mistake I think that people make, though, is assuming it's one-size-fits-all content.
23:43Because it's really easy.
23:45I think you got advice early on to be, like, Twitter famous.
23:47You know, go on TikTok or whatever it was at the time.
23:51And I should call it X now.
23:53But, like, that's what everyone thinks.
23:54And I found out I'm not a short-form girly.
23:57Like, I don't think in tweets at all.
24:01Like, I'm not funny in that way.
24:03And so we accidentally stumbled in to being long-form girlies, right?
24:07Like, we love LinkedIn.
24:09We are all over LinkedIn, honestly, to a borderline obnoxious level.
24:12Like, who knew I wanted to be a LinkedIn influencer?
24:14But here I am, right?
24:1645-minute episodes, like, these types of conversations.
24:19This is where we shine.
24:20We found that, right?
24:21But if you try to put me in Twitter, like, I'm always going to fail.
24:24And I think people need to play around with, like, what is the viral medium that works for them?
24:30And then double down if they feel, to your point, that brand building is important to their story.
24:35Okay, so I want to talk now about, along those lines, the influencers heading to Harvard Business School.
24:41And I think that this has been such an interesting, like, I don't know, shift in, like, where they are meeting their audiences.
24:48And, like, as people who have built their personal brand or whatever it is that they're building online through short-form content in a very new medium,
24:57going a traditional route of, like, sitting down at, you know, one of the oldest institutions in the country.
25:02You just interviewed Alex Earle for one of these sessions.
25:06Can you tell me about how that came to be and what you're noticing in so many more influencers and, you know, people in new media wanting to take on these opportunities?
25:13Absolutely. It was such a pleasure to have her to campus at HBS.
25:17Full credit goes to a professor, Reza Sachu, who actually got reached out to by her team.
25:22And so through him and one of my good friends on campus, they were looking to have kind of a student session where we got to have this interview and sit down.
25:29Naturally, I love getting to do the interviews.
25:31And I was head of speakers for our retail luxury goods club.
25:34So everyone who comes to campus at HBS has been invited effectively by a student or faculty.
25:40There's no pay to play.
25:42We don't even cover costs of flights.
25:44So in terms of it being, like, authentic and organic, these guests have really put their time and energy to come to campus.
25:49So, like, trust us, we're excited to have them, right?
25:52And so having Alex Earle was a really special moment because our generation really respects her.
25:57But it wasn't a given that the institution itself would understand what she was bringing to the table.
26:01And she blew away the student body.
26:03And honestly, me personally, her ability to talk about how involved she was with some of her strategic brand deals.
26:09I mean, we talked about Poppy briefly earlier.
26:12She was given the opportunity to become kind of just an influencer for them.
26:15But she actually brokered this investment opportunity.
26:18And that was an advocation moment for herself.
26:20And so I think it's important for the next generation of business leaders to understand this whole other world of business that is happening.
26:28That, yeah, as you said, like, it's not general management and managed by McKinsey.
26:32It is, like, very, very different.
26:34But it is critical because it's where people are getting their content.
26:39It's where consumers are making their purchasing decisions and behaviors.
26:43And so I think, and to HBS's credit, they've done a really good job of having this student-led speaker series motion where we're getting to bring the people that actually are interesting us today.
26:55That don't necessarily, on the surface, hit that, like, initial Harvard kind of moment.
27:01What do you think that says about Gen Z, that these influencers are now stepping into business spaces and, you know, like you said, are being taken seriously by our generation.
27:11But maybe that has to kind of be pushed a little bit for older generations.
27:14What else have you noticed in terms of, like, what Gen Z is looking for, whether that's, like, the businesses that are starting the jobs that they want or the conversations that they're having around these topics?
27:23I love this question.
27:24I mean, it's core to what we're building with The Room podcast.
27:26I think, speaking maybe as, like, an N of one and curious what your thoughts are, like, there's a touch of whimsical to this generation.
27:34Like, we like things not to be overly serious.
27:36And I think that's great.
27:38Like, life is too serious.
27:40Why would you take things so professionally all the time?
27:43And sometimes Harvard Business School can be stuffy, right?
27:45Like, who wants that?
27:47I think the flip side, unfortunately, is, like, sometimes our generation doesn't take things seriously enough.
27:52And so finding that balance, to me, is actually the biggest call to action for our generation is knowing when to, like, not just do a dance on TikTok and knowing when to, like, actually button up your shirt and, like, wear the little blazer and just, like, be a professional.
28:10Not to say people aren't doing that, but I think that's the tension of, like, bringing fun into the workplace and whimsical while still being, you know, serious and then therefore taken seriously.
28:20Because the difference is the generations above us, sometimes they're only going to see what you show them, and it takes a long time to unwind that narrative.
28:28I think just, like, playing that into just sort of the founder ecosystem, teenagers are now sort of thinking, you know, I can start this business myself.
28:37Like, I will be a founder.
28:38That is a path I can go on.
28:40And so it feels almost as if there's a ton of great companies that are coming to light from really young founders.
28:46They're brilliant.
28:47They're building something interesting and cool.
28:49But at the same time, there's maybe a lack of operational rigor that some of these businesses have.
28:55Not everyone who just starts a company will be successful, even though that's the narrative that we all like to listen to on TikTok, right?
29:03And so I think there's also this interesting balance of, yes, how do we empower kind of these 19-year-olds, 20-year-olds to build billion-dollar businesses?
29:11But also what experience do they need to have to make sure they're building effective businesses that will be durable in the long run and are not just for the TikTok bit?
29:18Oh, I was just going to add, I think, of course, it's silly not to mention AI and that, like, more than ever before, it is feasible and possible to build a really large-scale business with yourself, with a friend, all because of AI.
29:30And it does remind me of when we were in high school, kind of middle school, and I'm curious how you felt about this.
29:35Like, the blogger generation and, like, we had people who were blogs and, like, that was the influencer, and I was pretty inspired by that.
29:41That's really something I thought was really cool, and here we are today kind of doing our own flavor of that.
29:46And so what is easier than ever to do gets me excited about the future of founders in that way.
29:51Claudia, I want to ask, too, kind of what we were mentioning earlier in terms of your acquisition that you just had.
29:56What is your advice?
29:57Because I think a lot of young founders especially see this glamorized version of what it means to start a business, and they're like, I'm going to start this, I'm going to do it really well, I'm going to succeed immediately, and I'm going to sell it for a billion dollars.
30:06What is your advice for how young founders can approach starting up a company, and, like, what are the goals they should be setting for themselves?
30:14What are the realistic expectations that they should have for what it means to be building a business?
30:19How has that, how has your experience kind of influenced your thoughts on that?
30:22That's such a great question.
30:23I have so many thoughts.
30:25Look, I think if I had known how hard it was, I don't know if I would have done it.
30:30So many people tell me that.
30:31Everyone says that.
30:31I'm like, yeah, everyone keeps starting with this.
30:33And you know what?
30:34I don't know if that's a bad thing, right?
30:36Because I think until you do it, you don't realize where your breaking point is and how far you can push it.
30:41That being said, you really need to be passionate about what you're building.
30:44You have to be deeply thoughtful about the market you're building in.
30:47You need to invest in your team.
30:48And so I think too many founders think, I want to start a business, and they're not necessarily spending enough time thinking through what it is and what this long-term impact is.
30:57Even from, you know, choosing investors.
30:59You're choosing investors who should be there for, like, a multi-year, potentially decade-long journey, right?
31:05And so it's not a flippant decision.
31:06And then on the piece around acquisition, I think a lot of people think, you know what?
31:10I'll just sell my company.
31:13Selling a company is great, but it's not the end-all, be-all, right?
31:18The diligence process is tough.
31:20Finding the right buyer is tough.
31:22It's not an easy process.
31:24And so you need to be really sort of strategic around what does this acquisition actually unlock for you, your team, the product, what your mission and vision is.
31:32It's not just about selling the company.
31:34No one's going to buy it if that's the case.
31:36It needs to be unlocking strategic value.
31:39And so I think, you know, I see a lot of founders that have started businesses with the goal of selling it, and they can't sell it.
31:44And that's probably the reason, right?
31:47There isn't something deeper that's underlying that other businesses are wanting to buy.
31:51And in a tough economy, you know, cash is not as free-flowing.
31:55And so I think just people need to be more thoughtful at every kind of juncture in their journey around what does taking the next step mean?
32:01What does raising another $20 million sign me up for?
32:04What does selling this business tactically mean for my product and team?
32:08And ultimately, like, what market am I playing in?
32:10And should we be pivoting?
32:12People don't have those tough conversations nearly enough.
32:14How do you go about finding the right partners to buy your company, to have on the podcast, to sponsor the podcast, to invest in?
32:21What is that thought process like?
32:22Do you have a set of guidelines, or how are you guys deciding who those partners should be?
32:26I think it really starts with mission alignment, and are you strategically heading in the right direction?
32:31Just for, like, the acquisition, they already started building a version of our product and then realized we could accelerate their roadmap.
32:38We were thinking about raising more money to start to extend our market into their customer base.
32:43And so we were kind of merging in on the same kind of expansion opportunity, and so it made sense.
32:48And there were a set of other companies that had a similar strategy, and so we knew that was kind of our sphere of influence.
32:54I think, you know, just coming up with a list of 100 companies and reaching out to them and saying, hey, I'm up for sales, not necessarily effective,
33:01because there needs to be, like, a deeper underlying reason as to why someone's going to be putting millions of dollars to make this happen.
33:08And I think that extends for any partnership, right?
33:10Like, our sponsors are so mission aligned with furthering kind of the tools and resources that are available for the next generation of founder.
33:18We have lawyers show up to our events giving free legal advice.
33:21We have bankers really helping folks figure out where to put their $500,000 check and, like, what to do with that.
33:28And so because there's that organic sort of mission alignment, it's really easy to rally around that.
33:32No, I completely agree with everything Claudia just said.
33:35And something that we talked a lot about at HBS was the idea of making decisions quickly under pressure with imperfect information.
33:42And I think that that effectively sums up what startups investing is.
33:46And so it does really depend on what phase of that journey you're on.
33:50If it's a pre-seed investment, which is what I was doing prior to school and what I still love to do with angel investing,
33:54it's got a little bit vibes investing.
33:56You have to know that the market's big enough, that the person has the chops, but ultimately you're dreaming on a prayer and an idea.
34:02But as you grow, as you're alluding to, there's all of these alignment components that do need to come together.
34:07And you have to have a really rigorous mindset to think about that through in order to ultimately make those decisions.
34:13And so, you know, when it comes to the podcast itself, like we think a lot about like what do our partners need?
34:18What are we bringing to the table?
34:20How do we tell the story in order for them to buy in on the future vision of the world we have that might not exist today?
34:27But can we bring them along for that journey and align it with their current both tactical budgets and business needs for the upcoming year?
34:35I highly warn against doing things for the bid.
34:38And so you guys mentioned here to like this, you know, mission alignment or making sure that your goals align with what your partner's goals might be.
34:49But how are you guys going about setting those for yourself?
34:51How do you know what track you guys are setting out on?
34:54And especially in today's ecosystem where there's so much outside noise, not allowing it to be clouded by what others want it to be, what customers want it to be, what listeners want it to be.
35:05How do you walk that line of giving people what they want but also sticking true to your, you know, core?
35:10Yeah, it's important that the person you're doing it with, that you're aligned.
35:13So at the end of every season, Claudia and I just have a little check-in.
35:17Are we still doing this?
35:18Are we still moving forward?
35:20And that's been a really awesome check-in point for us because what can get scary is doing things in perpetuity and feeling like you have no end in sight.
35:27But if at every moment you just say, okay, like, are we still have gas in the tank?
35:31Are we still going to do this?
35:32That's been something that's been really key for us to make sure we're checking in on what our goals are.
35:37Are we still getting what we need out of this?
35:38And are we still making the impact that we want to be able to do, to your point around mission?
35:43And I really don't like the myth of an overnight success.
35:46I think it just seems to me that that is a trope that is ultimately harming everyone because it makes it feel, especially on the internet today, that this just happens because you stumble into it.
35:58Like, just no, that's not how it works.
36:00It's been five years for us.
36:02And, like, the day that we got on the Forbes Center 30 list, I literally, like, cried because I was like, this has been such a long time coming.
36:09But we had applied to the list before.
36:11Like, you know, like, we had tried.
36:12Like, no one talks about that.
36:13Like, you're kind of gunning for it.
36:15And it just doesn't happen overnight.
36:17And I think that's true of companies, too.
36:18Even Alex Earl mentioned that.
36:20And, like, you don't want to see my high school TikTok videos.
36:23And it's like, oh, my gosh, you were grinding, too, before you went viral?
36:26Totally.
36:26No, and I think just having people in your corner that center you and help you see the forest from the trees is so important, whether it's a mentor, whether it's an advisor.
36:36I think having that outside perspective, like, you know, even my co-founder looking at our co-founding situation, his perspective is, oh, my God, you guys are crushing it.
36:46You've come such a long way.
36:47Here's ABC reasons why.
36:49And it's so easy because we're so in it that we don't see it.
36:52And so being able to have, like, great people in your corner check you on that is really important.
36:57How do you guys keep going?
36:59What is it, especially with so many different facets of both of your careers happening simultaneously to building the podcast, how do you guys manage all of this?
37:07Is there, like, a strategy that you have, a tactic, a way that you start every morning?
37:11Like, what is your advice for managing all of this at once?
37:16That's a great question.
37:17I think the fact that we love spending time with each other really helps.
37:20This has been, like, an atomic habit for us.
37:23And because we are so committed to showing up for each other, it hasn't been hard to find that momentum.
37:30When I'm dropping the ball, you pick it up and vice versa.
37:33And so really kind of sitting down on, like, a two-season by two-season basis and say, here's what we're signing up for.
37:40Here's what we're trying to do.
37:41And then, like, let's reevaluate after I think has been so helpful for us to make sure that we're not burning ourselves out and we're staying true to why we're doing this.
37:51But I think certainly having a lot of Notion docs and all these productivity tools certainly helps with the time management piece.
37:58Yeah, I would say, like, I mean, tactically, matcha.
38:00Lots of matcha.
38:02Like, tons of matcha.
38:03So you're matcha, not coffee?
38:04I am, deeply.
38:05Yeah, matcha mads is kind of my alter ego.
38:07I just don't drink coffee.
38:08I don't know why you drink both, so yeah.
38:10So that's one.
38:11I think to your point, just, like, having a schedule and having that kind of, like, classic, you know, what you would expect.
38:17I think just having people that are rooting for you.
38:19Like, it's exciting to have people who are excited for us and it keeps us energized about it.
38:24And that's, like, everyone from our amazing team.
38:26I mean, of course, we have our producer.
38:28We have our marketing associate.
38:29And then we also have, like, our partners as well.
38:31We have, like, amazing PR people we get to work with.
38:34We have our guests who refer in other guests.
38:36Like, doing it alone, to me, feels like something I could never do.
38:40I respect solo founders, but I don't think it would have been our journey.
38:43And then it's not even just that.
38:44It's, like, the community behind the community.
38:46That's really why I do anything and speaking on behalf of you.
38:49Like, it's just fun.
38:50We get to do it with people we, like, think are really great or really interesting.
38:54And until it's not fun anymore, like, I don't know.
38:56Maybe we'll stop.
38:57But I don't think it's stopping anytime soon on the fun part.
38:59Exactly.
38:59Yeah.
39:00I love that.
39:00My last question for you guys.
39:02In terms of what's next and what you guys are getting ready for,
39:04do you have any predictions about the future of the business space in terms of, like,
39:08what's coming out of HBS or what you're seeing with other fellow founders or in the podcast industry?
39:14What do you guys expect is going to change or take shape in the next couple of months or years?
39:18Yeah.
39:18I mean, we're really excited for our Inside Summit in September.
39:21So that'll be coming around our second annual conference.
39:23We really do think this kind of bridge between online and offline is going to continue to be a trend.
39:28We're seeing it across the board.
39:29We just had Alex Conrad with Upstarts Media on our podcast this season.
39:33I'm just, we're really excited about the ways that these worlds are converging between old and new media, too.
39:37That's definitely a trend we're seeing and excited about and hope to continue to be a part of it.
39:42And then, honestly, well, you go next and then I'll think.
39:44Well, I would say, like, not to, not because this is just what I went through,
39:47but I do think there's a really interesting trend around consolidation in the ecosystem.
39:52There's a lot of companies that are great companies.
39:54They're growing.
39:54They might not necessarily become the multi-billion dollar companies.
39:58That doesn't mean they should shut down.
39:59And so what's happening?
40:00I think there's a lot of merging.
40:02M&A market is looking a lot hotter this year than it was in the past.
40:06And I think that's exciting.
40:07And then I think just sort of the rate of which companies are being built without venture funding at the pre-seed is also interesting.
40:16Because you can be non-technical and basically vibe code your way to a product, get customers, get early traction.
40:21I do think the burden of proof for what you need to build and prove out in order to secure that first fundraise will be different than it was a few years ago.
40:30And the last thing I'll say on that point, because I definitely believe that has unlocked an HBS founder moment.
40:35I mean, HBS founding has always been a very strong thing.
40:38But because most people at HBS are not a technical background, there's always this gap of having to find a technical co-founder.
40:43And it has made it easier than ever to found.
40:46So I think it's a really exciting time to be a founder.
40:48I think the caveat there, though, is like some of these more deeply technical products still do need to exist to be able to build the future of the Internet with AI.
40:56And so just making sure like your personal, you're not getting out over your own personal skis, right?
41:01Like you actually understand enough.
41:05Don't kind of gaslight yourself into thinking you actually understand what's going on under the hood or at the foundational model level.
41:11I think that's where we're going to have a bit of a risk of companies that like work.
41:16But like, do you understand your own code base?
41:18Like, probably not.
41:19And it's OK, but you need to have someone on the team who does.
41:22And so like just no conclusion there, but just like tentatively looking forward to how do you stay smart, curious and also know what you don't know.
41:30And maybe founder market fit is more important.
41:32Yeah, that could be true.
41:32Yeah, no, I'm so interested to see how with the rapid pace at which like like you guys have been talking about, these companies have been able to be built.
41:41These products and tools have been able to be built like, OK, and then and then what can we fix it when it breaks?
41:46And like what happens when we need a new iteration of it?
41:49So I'm so excited to continue listening in on the guests that you guys have and watching your guys journey.
41:53Thank you so much for joining me today.
41:55It was awesome to sit down and break down all of these different media business trends with you guys.
41:59Thank you so much for having us.
42:00Thanks for having us.