At today's Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, Sen. Josh Hawley (R-MO) questioned interim 23andMe CEO Joseph Selsavage.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Tilsavage, if I could just start with you. So how many customers do
00:05you have approximately? Between 14 and 15 million customers. Between 14 to 15 million, I think you
00:09told Senator Britt just a minute ago that a goodly number of those are minors. Is that correct?
00:14What I said was I don't have the number of customers. You have the genetic data of a good
00:19many minors. Is that correct? We have genetic data for a particular number of minors and I will be
00:25happy to provide people under the age of 18. Is that correct? That is how I'm defining a minor.
00:30So your customers, let's make sure I understand your business model, your customers give you
00:35their genetic information for you to run various tests on. Is that right? Yes, that is correct.
00:41And I mean, that's pretty sensitive stuff, isn't it? Somebody's genetic information. Is there
00:44anything more personal than that? I would agree with you, Senator, that genetic data is sensitive
00:50information. And so now you're just going to sell all of it? 15 million people, bunches of kids,
00:57maybe millions. It's just going to be sold in the open market? As Senator, you know, the good news,
01:02as I mentioned, is that the two bidders are buyers for the company. One is Regeneron, which is...
01:07That's the big pharma company? It doesn't make me feel any better.
01:11It's a large pharmaceutical company. All right, so you're going to take 15 million Americans'
01:15genetic information, and you're going to sell it to somebody. And your message to us is today,
01:21trust us, it'll be fine. Maybe it's a big pharma company. Maybe we'll get lucky. Maybe they'll
01:27treat it right. I thought your privacy code, your privacy commitment said that consumers had a right
01:34not to have their information shared with anybody else without their consent. I mean, I've got your
01:39privacy statement right here. It says that without their consent, you can't share their information.
01:42You're about to sell it. Senator, that consent is, you know, essentially for, you know...
01:48Not real? Not for research purposes, and we are not selling it for research purposes.
01:53Ah, so when you tell the consumer, give us your personal information, and we'll take money from you,
01:59and we won't give it to anybody without your consent, it's not real. It just means, you know,
02:04maybe kind of depends on the day. Senator, you know, I will say that. Our customers' data is their own.
02:10They have the right at all times to access that information. They can edit it.
02:16Well, sure they can, but you're about to sell it to who knows who. They can't control it. You said to
02:20Senator Moody that consumers have complete control of their data. Complete. How can they have complete
02:26control if you're about to sell it without their consent? Senator, they can delete that data anytime
02:30up until the sale and after. Oh, okay, okay. They can delete the data. Have you fixed the ability
02:36of customers to go on your website and delete it? Because right after you announced your sale,
02:41your deletion page went down. I hold in my hand here an article from the Wall Street Journal,
02:4623andMe's site goes down as customers struggle to delete their data. Can they even get onto your
02:50site to delete their data? They can, Senator, and... You fixed this? That was an issue that,
02:56yes, we fixed immediately after... It's up and running now? Customers can go on?
03:01Customers can go on, and they can delete their data. What happens when they go onto your site to delete
03:05their data? When a customer logs into their account at 23andMe, they go to their settings
03:11page, and they... There's a section there where just click delete my data. It confirms that they
03:18want to delete their data, and it's deleted automatically. Is that true? Let's take a look.
03:23Let's take a look. When they go onto your page, they get an opportunity. It says permanently delete
03:31the data. So they click the button that says permanently delete the data, and then they get
03:35a notification that says, your account is no longer accessible. How do they know if they can't
03:43access their account anymore, how do they know their data's been deleted? Because we send them
03:46a notification that their information has been deleted. You send it once, and how long does that
03:50take? You know, our policies state that, you know, we will delete their data within 30 days,
03:56and in most cases, it is automatic and happens much quickly. And when you delete it, it's deleted,
04:01deleted. It's gone forever. All the genetic data is deleted forever, and yes. Really? Because that's
04:08not what your privacy statement says in the fine print. Let's read it. What your statement says is,
04:14we retain personal information for as long as necessary to provide the services and fill the
04:19transactions you've requested to comply with our legal obligations, resolve disputes, enforce agreements,
04:24et cetera, et cetera. And then it goes on, 23andMe and or our contracted genotyping laboratory will
04:31retain your genetic information, even if you choose to delete your account.
04:36Senator, you know, 23andMe, it does not retain any genetic information regarding the consumer once
04:44they delete their account. We do... It says right here that you will retain genetic information,
04:50including date of birth and sex, even if you choose to delete your account.
04:57This is your privacy policy. I'm just quoting from it.
05:00Senator, you know, to the best of my knowledge, we do not maintain any genetic information.
05:05It says even if you choose to delete your account, we will retain. We will retain your genetic
05:13information, date of birth and sex, even if you choose to delete your account.
05:18Senator, there is some information that we do retain sometimes, but not related to the genetic
05:24information. But that, you know, such as name, email address, and other...
05:30Ah, so even if, ah, even if you delete the account, you retain their name, you retain their email
05:37address, you retain their date of birth, you retain their sex, and you retain their genetic information,
05:41even if they choose to delete your account. So in other words, don't talk to your suit behind you,
05:45talk to me. He's not testifying, you are. You do not allow consumers actually to delete permanently
05:55their data. And when you said a minute ago to Senator Moody, at all times consumers have complete
05:59control of their data, that's just not true, is it? By the terms of your own agreement, that just is not
06:05true. Senator, with all due respect, all of the genetic data is deleted. We are only...
06:11With all due respect, what you are telling me is in direct contravention to what your own policy states,
06:19even if you choose to delete your account. In fact, what you do is you allow your consumers
06:25to delete their account settings, but their data isn't deleted. You still have it. The laboratory
06:31still has it. You have their name. You have their date of birth. You have their sex. And now you're
06:35going to sell it. Here's my point. It's a pattern. Your consumers actually aren't in control of
06:40anything. You are. You control their data. You control their genetic information. Now you're
06:45about to sell it. You promise them, we won't ever sell it without your consent, but you're doing it.
06:50You promise them, we'll allow you to delete it, but you don't. In fact, you've lied to them. Have you not?
06:57Senator, we have not. I assure you that we are deleting all of our customers who have requested it.
07:02No, you're not. You're not because your policies say they're not, and you're not deleting it because
07:06if you were, your company wouldn't be worth $300 million. No, don't read from what your guy behind
07:12you is shoveling talking points to you. Now, I don't want your talking points. I've read your policies.
07:17I've seen what they are, and I tell you what, it's amazing to me you're not getting your socks sued
07:22off by your customers. I hope they will. I hope they will rush to the courthouse, even as we are here
07:29today to sue you into oblivion for lying to them and taking their most personal identifiable
07:38information and selling it for a profit and lying to them and to the American public. Quite frankly,
07:42Mr. Selsavage, what you're doing here has all kinds of implications, national security implications,
07:47all of it, but nothing is worse than taking the personal identifiable information of American
07:53consumers and keeping it and lying to them about it while you make a huge profit off of it.
07:58It's unbelievable to me. It's absolutely unbelievable.
08:02This concludes our hearing. I want to thank each of the witnesses for taking the time to share your
08:05experience, your expertise, and your perspectives. Written questions can be submitted for the record
08:08until Wednesday, June 18th at 5 p.m. I'll ask the witnesses to answer and return questions to the
08:12committee within two weeks. The hearing is adjourned.