On Tuesday, the Senate Agriculture, Nutrition, & Forestry Committee held a hearing to consider the nomination of Michael Boren to be Under Secretary of Agriculture for Natural Resources and Environment.
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00:00Good afternoon. Today we welcome Mr. Michael Boren of Idaho to the committee
00:05as we consider his nomination to be Undersecretary for the Natural Resources
00:09and Environment or NRE mission at the area at the Mission Area at the
00:15Department of Agriculture. The forest and grasslands of the United States Forest
00:20Service serve a variety of functions, wildlife habitat, outdoor recreation, oil,
00:25gas, minerals, and timber. I look forward to hearing from Mr. Boren on how he
00:29views this multiple-use mandate for the Forest Service. I'm concerned that recent
00:35years have seen reduction in the priority for timber. However, I'm pleased with some
00:39of the actions President Trump and USDA have taken to try and address this
00:43problem. Utilizing our forests to sequester carbon also requires
00:47responsibility by harvesting timber and properly managing our forests which
00:52provide an almost unlimited resource resulting in a win-win for everyone.
00:57When timber is harvested and ultimately stored in lumber and other end products, that
01:02carbon is preserved almost permanently. Perhaps an even better way our forests
01:06can serve our nation's environmental powerhouse is by preventing and mitigating
01:11future catastrophic wildfires. There's a statistic I know we've all heard before but
01:16it's still astounding to me. California wildfires in 2020 released twice as many
01:21greenhouse emissions from the state produced twice as many greenhouse emissions than the
01:27state reduced between 2003 and 2019. Properly managing our nation's forests can do more to prevent
01:36carbon emissions than almost anything else we can do in Congress. Thankfully this
01:41committee is currently considering the Fix Our Forest Acts and we hope to move this forward in the very
01:47near future and get this legislation signed in law. FOFA will provide the right tools and processes for
01:54our federal land management agencies including the U.S. Forest Service to mitigate the frequency and
01:59intensity of catastrophic wildfires. If confirmed as the Under Secretary of the USDA mission area that
02:06oversees the Forest Service, the committee will look to you to quickly implement FOFA and follow
02:13Congressional intent. Your leadership and background will be critical in ensuring the Forest Service is
02:19efficient and effective in carrying out the critical job of the mission area. Doing this successfully
02:27will ensure that all Americans can enjoy the benefits of our nation's forests and grasslands for
02:33years to come. I expect that Congress and this committee will be able to work with Mr. Bourne and rely on
02:38his professionalism and candor as we conduct necessary oversight over the multitude of programs and
02:44efforts under his purview. We expect you and your team will be prompt in our request and work with
02:50the committee to provide needed information and technical assistance. We will trust your experience and
02:56expertise to steward our national forest over the course of your time should you be confirmed as
03:03undersecretary. Mr. Bourne I want to again congratulate you on your nomination to be undersecretary for natural resources and environment at USDA and we look forward to hearing from you today.
03:14I now turn to our ranking member Senator Klobuchar for her opening statement.
03:21Thank you very much and thank you Senator Risch. Thank you for for coming here and to the nominee as well.
03:29So I spoke with Mr. Bourne I appreciated that very much and I'd like to welcome his family including his wife Joan and his father Robert Bourne and two of his children and daughter-in-law who I understand are here.
03:44Mr. Bourne if confirmed you will oversee the U.S. Forest Service which is as we all know responsible for managing 193 million acres of forest and grassland.
03:54Mr. Bourne you'll be considered for this position at a critical time for the forest service.
04:01We mentioned as the chairman mentioned the wildfires in California which of course created just unimaginable harm.
04:11I will note sometimes there's smaller fires as well that can quickly get out of control as you as I talked about Mr. Bourne.
04:18I appreciated the forest service work as I told Secretary Walt Rollins working with the state of Minnesota in just the last few weeks to contain fires in northern Minnesota that quickly spread to acres and acres.
04:33We currently have fires in Canada that are not really close to our state in terms of burning forests but are creating huge smoke issues in a lot of parts of the United States with more to come.
04:45The forest service has an important multiple use mandate to manage lands for timber, recreation, watershed health and more and USDA's and interiors focus on wildlife suppression and prevention are very important right now.
05:00A critical part of reducing wildfire risk is the forest service and its partners carrying out more forest management and I recognize the USDA recently released an active forest management strategy
05:12and I welcome its focus on increasing the use of good neighbor authority, a bill that I had worked on for years and other partnership agreements.
05:19Mr. Bourne, if confirmed you'll be responsible for implementing these recent directives and for responding to wildfires, I do remain concerned about the forest services capacity to carry out the important work to reduce wildlife risk and severity.
05:36The forest service has reportedly lost more than 4,000 employees since January and my office has received reports of forest service contracts having been cancelled and delayed including some projects focused on reduction of wildfire risk.
05:52Workforce reductions and disruptions in funding and contracts raise questions about the forest services ability to balance its many responsibilities.
06:01These are concerns I've raised in several communications with the USDA and need clarity from the agency.
06:08The administration's proposed budget that just came out also contributes to the uncertainty.
06:14The budget makes deep cuts in national forest service system funding, popular programs that strengthen state and private sector capacity for managing forests and forestry research.
06:26This is confusing following recent testimony to this committee from the forest service on the need to rely on state and private partners.
06:35The budget also recommends moving wildland fire operations to the Department of Interior from the USDA's forest service.
06:43While I'm open to reviewing the details of this proposal, I'm concerned it would hurt the forest services ability to execute wildfire mitigation and other land management work.
06:54Mr. Bourne, these proposals raise questions about the forest services approach to overseeing the wildfire crisis that we're seeing in so many states as my colleague Senator Bennett knows from his home state of Colorado and managing forest service lands.
07:11I look forward to hearing more about how, if confirmed, you will work to ensure the forest service addresses these challenges and how you will ensure our national forests remain a place for all Americans to enjoy.
07:22Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
07:24I yield back my one minute to Senator Risch.
07:27I'll take it.
07:29Senator Elvin wanted to know what job we were confirming Senator Risch for.
07:34You should be so lucky to vote.
07:39Today we are more than pleased to have our good friend and colleague Senator Risch with us, who truly is a champion of agriculture in rural America throughout this country.
07:50He will be introducing our nominee, Mr. Michael Bourne.
07:54Thank you for being here again, Senator Risch.
07:56Please proceed.
07:57Well, thank you very much.
07:58It's good to get even with you, Mr. Chairman.
08:01Thank you to yourself and the ranking member for having me here today.
08:05I think you've introduced more people than my, I've got more nominees in my committee than any of the other committees.
08:11And I think you've introduced more of them than anybody else.
08:14I was thinking of getting your own chair in the committee room.
08:18But thank you.
08:19Thank you for being here.
08:20And it's a great honor to do this for a lot of different reasons.
08:24Obviously, forestry is a passion of mine.
08:26My undergraduate degree was in forest management, forestry and forest management.
08:31We haven't had a Idaho fingerprints on the forest service since I was governor.
08:38When I was governor, we had one of my classmates actually was chief of the forest service.
08:42We're going to have a chief of the forest service from Idaho.
08:45And of course, this position now from Idaho.
08:48And it's so important because people, particularly if you live east of the Mississippi, it's hard to fathom that our state is owned two-thirds by the federal government.
08:59Two out of every three acres in the state of Idaho is owned by the federal government.
09:04And so it's an entirely different ballgame doing business there, commerce and everything else.
09:10And particularly when the state has cut its teeth on mining and on forestry and those kinds of things, it's very difficult to operate sometimes with the federal government.
09:22They're not always the best neighbors in the world.
09:25Most federal employees are good people, hardworking people, well-intentioned people.
09:32But there are some that make being a neighbor with the federal government challenging.
09:37Turning to the nominee, President Trump has picked, I think, the right person for this job.
09:45If you go into his background, obviously he's been a very successful person in the business sector.
09:52But beyond that, he has considerable roots in the forest.
09:57And he started as a teenager working with the forest service and doing business with the forest service.
10:04And it followed his family.
10:07His father had quite a lot of dealings with the forest service, which he will talk about in his opening statement.
10:14As did his wife's grandfather, I believe it was.
10:17So he comes at it from a couple different ways.
10:20One of the things I'm sure that you're going to ask him about is there's been a lot of media about disagreements he's had with the federal government.
10:29And I can tell you that in Idaho, where we have all this federal land, there are pieces of ground called inholdings.
10:37If you're from the east of the Mississippi, you've never heard of the word inholdings.
10:41But when you're from out west, as a lot of our members are, they know what an inholding is.
10:49And I can tell you, most federal people, when you talk to them, will not concede that they're not very...
10:59Senator, don't you want to hear the rest of this, Josh?
11:01I'm sorry.
11:02But I've listened to you over these years.
11:06I can't understand.
11:08No, no, no, no, no.
11:10He takes things literally, you know.
11:19In any event, when you have inholdings, usually the BLM and the Forest Service are not really happy with inholdings.
11:27And they aren't always the best neighbor.
11:29To be honest with you, I've never...
11:31I've dealt with these kind of problems when I was governor in my decades in the State Senate.
11:37I dealt with a lot of people that had problems with the BLM or the Forest Service who had inholdings.
11:42And they were disputes that really should have been resolved, like good neighbors resolve them.
11:47But instead, they turn into public debates and it can be difficult and reaches a fever pitch at times.
11:55But I've never yet run into anybody that has an inholding.
11:59And they're relatively common in the West.
12:02I've never run into anybody that has an inholding property that hasn't had some disagreement with their neighbor, the federal government.
12:09So I'm sure you'll want to ask him questions about this.
12:12And I'm sure he'll explain these to you.
12:15But these are difficult things.
12:18And he has a considerable amount of land that is in an inholding.
12:23And as I say, he'll be able to explain to you the disputes that he's had with the federal government on these.
12:33But look, this is the right guy for this job.
12:36I commend the President of the United States for choosing him for this particular position.
12:41And I would commend his nomination to you.
12:47And I know that you will look at this favorably and civilly when you deal with him.
12:54So thank you very much.
12:55And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12:56If I can be excused, please, I've got another meeting I have to go.
12:59I guess we'll let you go.
13:01Senator Klobuchar, you are not going to cross-examine me if that's what you're thinking.
13:05Looking so invited.
13:07Yeah, I know.
13:08Thank you for being here.
13:09Thank you so much.
13:10I appreciate it.
13:11We know you're busy.
13:12Thank you so much.
13:13Thanks, Jim.
13:23Okay, I will now administer the oath and then begin with witness testimony.
13:35You'll have five minutes.
13:37Please stand and raise your right hand.
13:40Do you swear or affirm that the statement you're about to provide is the truth, the whole truth,
13:45and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
13:48Yes.
13:49Do you agree that if confirmed, you will respond to requests to appear and testify before any
13:54duly constituted committee of the Senate?
13:56Yes.
13:57Thank you, Mr. Borne.
13:59You are now recognized for your statement.
14:04Thank you, Chairman Bozeman, Ranking Member Klobuchar, and members of the committee.
14:10It's a real honor to be here today to appear before you, and I've had a very pleasant opportunity
14:15to meet some of you in your offices and learn some good things about your states and about
14:20what you're concerned with.
14:22If confirmed, it will be a privilege for me to spend time working with you as you exercise
14:28your responsibilities and authorities and oversight with the Forest Service and the
14:33Department of Agriculture.
14:35I'm thankful to President Donald Trump and to Secretary Brooke Rollins for the trust they've
14:41placed in me in this nomination.
14:45I think they are very inspiring people, and I hope you will give me the opportunity to
14:49work for them.
14:52May I introduce my wife and partner of 41 years.
14:58It's been a really interesting ride.
15:00Meeting Joan at a church dance changed my life.
15:04It made it harder.
15:06It made it so much more worthwhile, and it gave me so much more reason to be the best that
15:13I could be.
15:15Joan and I, we have a life of adventure.
15:18It's so many times we look at each other at the end of a day and say truthfully, just
15:24another best day ever.
15:26We've had some great days.
15:27We've had hard days, and they've been great days.
15:30My father, Robert Boren, a retired professor and Forest Service employee and consultant
15:36with the Forest Service for many, many years, is with us today.
15:41I'm really pleased to have him here.
15:43He spent many days in the forest since 1937 when he first got to the forest.
15:49My mother died in 2012 after 54 years of marriage to my father.
15:54She was a really great example to me.
15:56She was a true pioneer, and she spent her life serving other people.
16:02I'm glad to have known her and to have been her son, to be her son.
16:07Joan and I have three children.
16:08Two of them are able to be here today, Jack and Amanda.
16:13Jack's wife, Ashley, is here as well, and Amanda is here with her daughter, my granddaughter,
16:19Stevie, one of nine grandchildren that we've had one a year for nine years.
16:24So it's been quite a ride there as well.
16:27I love my grandchildren and my children, and I will do everything I can to preserve the beauty
16:33and the opportunity and the freedom that is America for them.
16:37And that's why I'm here today, among other reasons.
16:39But I'm here to serve my children and your children and grandchildren.
16:43I'm thankful to be supported by many friends and family members.
16:47Some of them are here today, and many more of them are watching live, and I'm glad to have their support.
16:55The United States Forest Service has always been a part of my life.
16:59I remember some of my earliest memories are when my father was working for the Clayton Ranger District in central Idaho in the summers.
17:08And he spent long hours there.
17:10There was too much to do and too few employees.
17:14I know that seems surprising that we're back to that today, but I think it's maybe always the case.
17:20And somehow he and the Ranger got it done.
17:23And I have to say the Ranger to me was larger than life.
17:26That was the really important person in our county, and I really looked up to him.
17:31Later in his life, my father worked for the Forest Service and the Interagency Fire Center, which is based in Boise, Idaho, as a consultant.
17:41And I had a lot of time to learn things from him about that as well.
17:44And I feel like I have a pretty good grounding in some of the challenges and opportunities of the Forest Service.
17:50As Senator Rich mentioned, my brother Dave and I worked as teenagers.
17:56We had a business buying logs from the Forest Service and cutting them up into posts and poles and selling them to neighboring ranches.
18:04That was so successful that the next year we decided to make more money we would be GS1 level employees of the Forest Service and plant trees.
18:13And that went pretty well.
18:15So we have some experience there.
18:17I have accessed the forest in almost every way you can imagine.
18:23On foot, on horseback, skis, snowshoes, snowcats, snowmobiles.
18:28Every kind of conveyance from motorcycles to ATVs to UTVs, four-wheel drives, and motorized and non-motorized boats.
18:40And especially aircraft and helicopters.
18:43And I can tell you it's given me a real appreciation for the difficulty of maintaining and increasing and improving access to the forest for the general public.
18:52And this is a very important issue for me because I believe that when people go to the forest, it's a spiritual experience, it's an awakening, and it's a patriotic experience for them.
19:02And I want to make sure they have that opportunity.
19:05My wife's grandfather, Leonard Berg, who Senator Rich mentioned, worked for the Forest Service his whole career and ended his career here in Washington, DC.
19:15And I really admired him.
19:17But I also have recognized his abilities and strengths and integrity in many of the employees of the Forest Service with whom I hope to be able to work.
19:27It looks like I'm about out of time.
19:30I could tell you more about my career and my background, but I feel that I'm uniquely positioned to support the Forest Service in its role.
19:39And I think that it will be a blessing to work for the Forest Service if you confirm me to this position.
19:48Before I ask my questions, I'd like to add letters in support of Mr. Borden's nomination into the record, as well as a statement from Senator Crapo, who has a conflict.
19:59He's, as you know, Chairman of Finance and is busy right now.
20:04Without objection, so ordered.
20:06I'll go ahead and start.
20:11Due to the rise of catastrophic fires across the United States, federal and state land management agencies and private forestry owners recognize the need to increase the pace and scale of hazardous fuels reductions on federal lands and cross-boundary landscapes.
20:29Mr. Borden, what is your view of Forest Service's role on forest management tools like timber production that can prevent catastrophic wildfires?
20:39How can the Forest Service proactively manage our forest to promote wildfire resiliency?
20:46The Forest Service has, thank you, Senator, for that question and for having me here.
20:51The Forest Service has many tools available to it to manage the forests to sustain their health and diversity and productivity.
21:00And I think we should use all of them.
21:03In particular, the tools relating to timber production, which are important not only for making the forest more healthy and more resilient and fire resistant, but also for revenue to the government of the United States and therefore its people.
21:19And also to be able to use those organizations to take care of some of our trails and roads.
21:28So it's really important to produce timber.
21:30It's also important to reduce fuel accumulation where timber isn't the best way to do it or to do it in conjunction with that.
21:38And I feel like that is something that is really well done in coordination with timber producers and other groups.
21:46And we can look, in particular, to state forestry organizations to see some of the good things that they've done.
21:52Very good.
21:53Across the western United States, the checkerboard pattern of land ownership between public, private, and tribal landowners creates confusion and limits active management of the forest.
22:05These limitations can negatively impact our national forests.
22:09How do you view these cross-boundary issues and how can the Forest Service engage with other public and private land managers?
22:18Well, as a private landowner, I know the checkerboard nature of the West is difficult because it doesn't matter what you do on your own land in terms of noxious weeds, reduction and prevention, or in terms of fire prevention.
22:36Your neighbors need to be involved.
22:39And I think there have been some really good things that you in Congress have done over the past few years along those lines.
22:46I know there's an interesting checkerboard project for fuels reduction in California today with Sierra Pacific Industries and possibly with other companies.
22:55That is a good example of how the public and private landowners can get together to deal with fuels reduction and other methods of mitigation.
23:04And I would think we could do a lot more of that.
23:08Timber sales from national forests benefit many stakeholders by mitigating wildfires, preventing pests and disease outbreaks, and supporting the economy of local communities.
23:18Unfortunately, many mills are struggling due to fluctuations in the amount of timber from our forests and the demand for forest products.
23:25What is your view on the value of timber sales when it comes to supporting rural economies and forest management?
23:31And what can the forest service play in supporting mills, which is with a steady supply of timber?
23:38I've seen firsthand the problems that come with lack of timber production and the things that happen to rural communities when they lose a timber mill, a lumber mill.
23:49And I realize that it's very difficult these days to add new lumber mills to replace the old ones.
23:56And one of the reasons is the cost is really high.
23:59It costs maybe $300 million to build a good successful lumber mill.
24:04And nobody's willing to do that if they don't have a guarantee of production to be able to maintain their mill for a long period of time.
24:12And so while it's very important to support our rural communities by producing more timber, by selling more timber, if there's no one to buy it, if there's no one to process it, you can't have that mill.
24:25You can't build those economies.
24:27And so we need to do more than just say we're going to produce more timber.
24:31We need to encourage long-term contracts with mill owners so that they have a reason to believe that they can invest $300 million in a mill and make a living out of it over the long term.
24:43We need to work with other entities, state forests, for example, and private forests, to help find ways to grow our rural economies by providing them a steady supply of timber.
24:59Senator Klobuchar.
25:02Thank you very much, Senator Bozeman.
25:05I think I'll start with the staffing issue I raised in the opening just with the thousands of employees that have left and terminated.
25:15There were deferred resignation plans and then the White House's direction to federal agencies to plan for additional layoffs.
25:23Mr. Borne, how will you ensure resignations and terminations will not affect the ability of the Forest Service to prevent and address the dangers of wildfires?
25:33Thank you, Senator Klobuchar.
25:34That's a very important point.
25:36We certainly need to have an appropriate level of staff to fulfill our mission.
25:41I have not had an experience with the Forest Service yet where I understand what the staffing levels are and how they're being applied.
25:50But I am very familiar with resource-constrained organizations, having worked in one and for one that I started for many years,
25:59where we started with a very small amount of money and never really had enough to do what we needed to do.
26:05I certainly wouldn't say that that guarantees that I'll be able to figure it out immediately at the Forest Service,
26:12but I know that we have to live with the resources that we receive and we will find a way to do that.
26:20Okay.
26:21And the present budget proposes moving wildland fire management outside of the USDA.
26:29This is a significant responsibility of the Forest Service that would be transferred to the Department of Interior,
26:35and I understand some have questions about the impact on this, on managing wildfire responses.
26:42Could you talk about how this proposal could affect the agency's fire mitigation work like prescribed burns
26:49and how you will work with states, tribes, and employees and other interested parties as this proposal is considered?
26:57I have questions as you do.
26:59I don't fully understand the proposal and how it's intended to work.
27:04I do have a background through my father and through living in Boise, Idaho and visiting the Interagency Fire Center,
27:13and through being a firefighter and working with incident management teams,
27:18where it's very clear to me that cooperation with other agencies and other organizations is the way to fight fire.
27:25And I'm sure that if this transfer occurs, the Forest Service will still be intimately involved
27:35since that organization is responsible for most of the federal forests and a large chunk of grasslands
27:42and responsible for keeping them in good condition.
27:45Exactly.
27:46Yep.
27:48That's part of why I'm so worried about this.
27:50And thanks for mentioning that, because as you acknowledge here, the Forest Service is charged with managing forests and watersheds,
27:58wildlife habitat, and these are responsibilities of the Forest Service.
28:03Could you very quickly, because I want to get something else, mention what policies or practices you would promote
28:09to balance these multiple uses to ensure the long-term health of forests and grasslands?
28:15I'll try to be brief.
28:16That's a really big question, Senator.
28:19Multiple use is super important.
28:22All of the people in America own our forests and grasslands, and they all have different ideas about how they should be used.
28:28And we need to find ways to balance all of the uses, recreation, timber production, clean air and water,
28:35which sometimes involves non-production in areas, oil and gas and forage.
28:40There are lots of things that we need to balance.
28:42And, you know, we just need to always be mindful of everyone else's position.
28:49I find that when we get into negotiation, when I get into negotiation frequently, it's important to show, to learn what the other person wants
28:59and not to worry too much about my own personal needs.
29:01Okay.
29:02The, um, Senator Risch mentioned that you had as a land owner and has had some disagreements about easements with the forest service, um, near your Idaho ranch.
29:16And could you talk about, uh, these disagreements briefly?
29:20You can follow up in writing.
29:22And how will you respond to those that may disagree with your positions or decisions, including employees or members of the public?
29:31Thank you for bringing that up.
29:32That is a long conversation potentially, but briefly.
29:34Well, Senator Risch opened the door.
29:36He did.
29:37He did.
29:38And, uh, he's aware of some things that have happened that have been difficult for me and some that I felt were oppressive because I've talked to him about those.
29:46But, uh, I think one of the important things to point out is that I don't have disputes with the forest service.
29:53He did use that word, but I would disagree with that.
29:56As a land owner, I have had disagreements from time to time with the forest service.
30:02Typically they've been very aggressive at the beginning of those disagreements.
30:06And eventually when they got the facts and when we talked through it and we had reasonable discussions, we've always come around to a settlement that works for everyone.
30:15And, uh, to be very clear about easements, if I may just have a moment.
30:20I, there's a scenic easement on a ranch that I live on and I have never had a violation or even a suggestion that I violated.
30:29Well, I've had one suggestion, but it was clear that it didn't happen and it was retracted.
30:34I haven't had violations of that easement.
30:36Okay.
30:37Ever.
30:38I'd just last very quickly.
30:39Will you commit to not interfering with, and in fact, or accusing yourself from any existing or future matters involving properties that you, your family members, or your friends own or are affiliated with, with the forest service?
30:53Senator, I have had incredibly detailed discussions with USDA ethics attorneys, who, by the way, are amazing.
31:01And I will commit to making sure they always know everything about anything that could be a conflict of interest that I can tell them and to always following their advice.
31:12Okay.
31:14Senator Hogan.
31:16Senator Hogan.
31:17Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
31:23Thanks for coming in and visiting with me earlier.
31:27And one of the things we talked about was access in the grasslands, and that's incredibly important.
31:32You've been a rancher all your life, although you've been involved in other pursuits as well, obviously.
31:38But you understand it, I think, from a rancher's perspective.
31:41Talk to me about the importance of access for those ranchers that are in the grazing associations on the grasslands.
31:52Senator, I have been involved in access ideas and issues for much of my life.
32:00It's a really important part of my life for people to have access to their properties and to public land.
32:08To be able to use that land appropriately.
32:11And there are often differences of opinion about how to approach that.
32:18And my opinion is that the Forest Service is the servant of the people in managing the assets of the people, known as the national forests and grasslands.
32:32And we need to, if I happen to be confirmed by you, the Forest Service should always remember that it's a service organization for the benefit of the people, today's people and future generations.
32:46And should be careful to consider the importance of access to the forests or access to people's grazing leases or grasslands as being of paramount importance.
32:57I'm not sure how it works in every state, but in our state that means we have to have access to the section lines.
33:02Will you work with us to make sure that we have access, our grazers have access to those section lines, so they can access their herds in the grasslands?
33:11I will commit to working with you to resolve that issue.
33:15I can't promise you that I will make sure it happens, but I will do my best.
33:19Okay.
33:20But you understand the need for access and the importance of access through the section lines?
33:25It's extremely important, and I agree.
33:27Okay.
33:28Grazing agreements.
33:29Are you going to make sure that grazing agreements for the ranchers out there are fair, practicable, practicable, practical and workable?
33:40Senator, yes.
33:42Okay.
33:43I have experience with that, not with forest grazing leases, but with state and BLM leases.
33:48And I know it's very important for both sides to work together.
33:52How about fire control?
33:54Sometimes the, I mean, the ranchers, the volunteer fire departments have a huge role in the grasslands in terms of addressing fire.
34:04Most of it is these volunteer firemen.
34:07Sometimes, though, the federal government will come in and do prescribed burns when they shouldn't, high winds or whatever.
34:16Are you willing to work and make sure that that doesn't happen, that the federal government is working with the forest service, is working with the ranchers on the ground when it comes to things like controlled burns and other issues?
34:29Senator Hoeven, thank you.
34:30Senator Hoeven, that's an area that's important to me.
34:33I've been involved with a volunteer fire department and worked with the forest service on fires.
34:39And I think it's very important to work together.
34:42It's very important if you're ever going to do a prescribed burn to make sure everyone knows about it.
34:48And the other thing is, I think we can be a little more careful about how and when we do prescribe burns.
34:53Have you been out in the grasslands and seen some of the landscapes where the prairie dogs have taken over and it looks like the moon?
34:59Lunar landscape?
35:00I have, Senator.
35:02Do you think that's appropriate?
35:03I don't like it.
35:05I think there are solutions and we should pursue them.
35:08Right.
35:09And just reasonable solutions like a reasonable buffer so that if somebody has private land, they don't have a prairie dog infestation that they can't control.
35:17That's not fair to individual ranchers or grazers, is it?
35:21I think that, yes, I think that's correct.
35:23That should happen and it's not fair.
35:25And I think that it's the same thing for prairie dogs as other infestations like weeds.
35:30There should be a buffer zone.
35:31Glad you mentioned that.
35:32Weed control is really important.
35:34We've got noxious weeds.
35:37As Assistant Director at the Forest Service, or Deputy Director, Chris French has been really good about working with us on addressing noxious weeds, which is a huge issue.
35:49So, one, I want to commend him and ask for your help and your support, continued support, in addressing noxious weeds.
35:57And I can't imagine why everybody couldn't agree that that just makes common sense.
36:02Senator, thank you.
36:04I will offer you my support and I agree it makes common sense.
36:07And I will say that in my home area, the Forest Service does a really good job of encouraging ranchers to control the weeds on their own property.
36:18And I think that it's good to have that be reciprocal.
36:21Yeah, right.
36:22You said that just right.
36:23Thank you very much.
36:25Senator Bennett.
36:27Senator Bennett.
36:28Senator Bennett.
36:29Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
36:30Thank you, Mr. Boren, for being here.
36:31I appreciate it.
36:32I know you grew up, you mentioned with your dad, working in the Forest Service, and I know
36:36you've got exposure to the forest risk or the fire risk that we're all dealing with.
36:44In Colorado, there's huge amounts of concern about how dangerous things are.
36:51And I have a lot of concern about what the purpose of the Trump administration's decision to move fire suppression out of the Forest Service is meant to accomplish at a moment when the last thing we need, I think, is to make it more confusing.
37:11Especially we're thinking about the current wildfire season that we're facing right now.
37:17And I wasn't clear from your answer to Senator Klobuchar whether you supported that change, whether you said you had some questions of your own.
37:25I have some questions.
37:26I wonder what questions you do have about how to do it, because I'm not sure.
37:31I mean, I think maybe there's a philosophical view out there in the world that separating fire suppression from mitigation and from wildfire restoration, all that stuff, is a good idea philosophically.
37:46On the ground, I'm not sure, especially in a world where people have come to work together so well with local communities, volunteer fire departments, the work that your dad did at the fire center out there.
38:00Could you talk a little bit about that in this context and how you're going to, when you become in charge of the Forest Service, the degree to which you'll pay attention to the question of whether this is a good idea or not a good idea, I guess?
38:17Senator, thank you.
38:18Senator, thank you.
38:19I guess the answer is I'm certainly willing to look at that idea and consider it, and I can understand on my own without getting into details or being told by anyone in the administration yet, and since I'm not there, I haven't been.
38:34I can see reasons why it's a good idea to have an agency that's focused on fire where there's a person at the head of the agency that can be held fully responsible.
38:45And to be clear, responsibility is a good thing.
38:49Consequences are a good thing.
38:50They help shape our decisions.
38:52And so I can see where there's maybe some value and hope in that, and that might be part of what's driving it.
38:59But I have to say I just don't have the facts yet to really understand all of the reasons behind it.
39:06However, I will commit to you that managing fire so that it doesn't cause so many health problems and economic problems to our country and problems to the forest is very important to me.
39:20It will be a major focus.
39:23I appreciate that.
39:25I think it's important for the American people and the taxpayer to understand that fighting these fires costs six times or nine times more than doing the restoration on the front end, doing the mitigation on the front end.
39:41In that sense, they're related questions, because I hate to say it, but given the conditions, we may find ourselves paying one way or another, which is why it is so important, I think, to coordinate this work.
39:54And it is very important for the people, I think, for the people that are suppressing the fires to be able to understand and give advice to the people that are doing the work on the front end as we think about how to take care of these landscapes and protect the infrastructure and our water infrastructure in particular.
40:19Can you just respond to that or comment?
40:22Yeah, I think that's a really insightful comment, Senator.
40:26And I think you're actually underestimating when you say six to nine times because you're talking about the tangible costs.
40:35And the health costs to America of the wildland fires that we've had is ridiculously high and overlooked.
40:42And I can tell you, I've read some of the studies on that from university professors and other organizations.
40:49And the health risk to Americans, especially young Americans, is very high.
40:53The health risk to our cattle herds is very high.
40:56And none of that's in your six to nine times number.
41:00So it's a really expensive thing.
41:02It's much better to be proactive to take care of our forests so that we don't end up with the results of firefighters.
41:09And here's another thing that isn't included in those costs, the damage to our watersheds.
41:14Yeah, that's what...
41:15Which is amazingly huge.
41:17And I see it firsthand in our neighborhood because we've had some really big fires.
41:21We've had pristine wilderness rivers that haven't recovered in 20 years.
41:26Well, that's my major concern.
41:29Every single watershed we have is downstream of these forests.
41:34I mean, downhill and downstream.
41:37And that means that every single farm and ranch is downstream, every single community,
41:43no matter how big and no matter how small.
41:45I mean, really, the entire American West, the entire American...
41:49I don't think it's an exaggeration to say the entire American West is at risk.
41:55And we can't undo lots of decisions that have been made up until this moment, I suppose.
42:01But we are going to have to find a way to work together in an urgent way to mitigate the risk that we are facing.
42:10And I completely agree that I think we've got to make important investments on the front end
42:16to try to mitigate the, not just the cost of fires, but the destruction that they can cause to our watersheds.
42:24Because without those watersheds, we don't have a Colorado.
42:29I couldn't agree more, Senator.
42:32Thanks.
42:33Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
42:35Senator Hyde-Smith.
42:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
42:39And thank you so much for being here today and your willingness to serve.
42:42And I'm really glad that Stevie is here today.
42:44We don't get very many little girls in here.
42:47So glad that you're here today, Stevie.
42:49You know, in Mississippi, we call ourselves the Wood Basket of the Nation.
42:53And you and I had a really good visit about that.
42:56But we play a critical role in the U.S. timber supply.
42:59We're uniquely positioned just to meet the growing meat demands of the timber needs here and the wood products.
43:07But we also ship them through our ports.
43:10Our port at the Gulf of America and down the Mississippi River as well.
43:15But even in challenging times, public and private forests in Mississippi have been at the forefront of common sense forest management that helped keep us healthy, working, and productive.
43:28In the next Farm Bill, and through the Fix Our Forest Acts, we are currently being considered by the committee, we hope to create more opportunities to support this industry that's very critical to my state.
43:43And to improve the essential tools that we need at the Forest Service to increase the pace and scale of active forest management in Mississippi and across the country.
43:55If confirmed, how do you plan to approach the management within the agency, especially when it comes to streamlining projects and the approvals of that, coordinating with state and local partners and making sure decisions keep on the ground realities in mind?
44:14Senator Hyde-Smith, one of the things that I intend to do is learn more about Mississippi and how you've accomplished the things you've accomplished.
44:23Because some of the projects that you've been involved in in Mississippi and some of the things that are going on in the forest in Mississippi are truly revolutionary and should be applied throughout the country.
44:36And I appreciate your example as a state.
44:39But really, I think what it comes down to is we have large tasks ahead of us with the Forest Service in all the areas you mentioned.
44:52And we need coordination with other entities, both state agencies, well state agencies, but also user groups and other organizations that want to put skin in the game and be helpful.
45:07And I think that, you know, that can be a really, really good thing as we have not all the resources that we need.
45:15But one thing we need is help from senators and representatives.
45:20And you pointed out that we have, we have a need for streamlining what we do.
45:25Yeah.
45:26And there's some things that we probably can't streamline without streamlining some of our acts of Congress that might need a little tweaking so that they work appropriately, both for protection of the environment, because one of the things that's important to us is long-term health of the forests and sustainability of their usability for the people.
45:45So, you know, that's important, but also being able to get the right things done at the right time on the ground.
45:54And a good example of that would be, after a fire, it's really important to use that timber now rather than wait and try and sell it in three or four years when it has no value.
46:05And there's some things you could do to help us with that.
46:08And we'll be glad to do it.
46:09In Mississippi, it's called hard work.
46:11Our successes are because of hard work and some really good programs with people willing to invest and people willing to commit.
46:20But, you know, we've been working on one particular issue for decades now, and I had the opportunity to mention that to you, namely developing the area around Lake Okissa in Franklin County, Mississippi.
46:33It's in the Homachita National Forest that's in southwest Mississippi.
46:37Beautiful area, so much potential, 1,100-acre pristine lake down there, and it was built in the 1990s is when it was built.
46:48But you can fish all day long by yourself almost, and you can ski by yourself.
46:53We've got to develop something to capitalize on the potential around that area.
46:58In the 2018 Farm Bill, we worked really hard to include a provision that transferred 150 acres of the Homachita National Forest land to support economic development.
47:10And we're beginning to see that payoff significantly since that signed into law, and we're very excited about that project.
47:17Some really good announcements just lately on that.
47:20But the goal of this effort is to enable smart, locally driven development that complements the natural resources and increases public access that you have mentioned.
47:33And I look forward to continuing working with this committee in supporting economic development in this very, very rural area of Mississippi.
47:42Two small towns, one of them has a red light, the other one doesn't.
47:45But, Mr. Boren, please share how you view this kind of targeted land transfer for economic development,
47:53and what kind of support the Forest Service could provide to ensure the success of this project,
47:59and both for the community and maintaining stewardship of the surrounding Homachita National Forest lands.
48:06Thank you for the opportunity to address that, Senator.
48:10I have to correct you from my personal point of view, though, which is I don't want to fish by myself when I've got nine grandkids that like to fish.
48:20So it's nice to have some friends, even if you have to create them.
48:25But in terms of your project at Lake Okissa, I think it's brilliant.
48:31I think it's replicable.
48:33I think it's the kind of thing that we need to try to do throughout our forests to increase access and use of the forests.
48:41I don't know that we would have to do it just the way you did it,
48:47but the idea is really important to get people opportunities to benefit from the use of the forests.
48:53And I look forward to, I mentioned to your staff that I would love to learn more about that project, and I mean it.
49:00I look forward to coming to your office and meeting with them and learning how we can replicate that elsewhere.
49:05I'd love for you to come to Mississippi, and I'll take you to Lake Okissa.
49:09Well, as long as I don't have to land at the, what did you call it, the Brookdale Triangle?
49:17Because that's a scary place from what I hear. I'm happy to come.
49:21We'll leave that right there. Thank you.
49:32Well, thank you again for appearing before the committee, Mr. Boren.
49:36And to our committee members for their participation.
49:40Today's important hearing, again, as always, to our staffs that do so much work getting these things ready.
49:46The record will remain open for two business days.
49:49Today's hearing is now adjourned.