- 6/2/2025
Shadow Defence Secretary James Cartlidge has claimed that the Government has backtracked on its promise to increase spending to 3 per cent of GDP and cannot fund its promises on defence. He told GB News: "The really key point is that the Prime Minister can promise all the ships, submarines, tanks he wants, but it all has to be paid for. "We have now is that last week, John Healey, the Defence Secretary, said it was absolutely certain that we would get to 3 per cent GDP on defence. That's incredibly important. Since then, he's backtracked, and basically we don't know where the government stands on the money."That's really important, because the authors of this Strategic Defence Review have written in The Telegraph today saying that it's entirely based on the assumption of going to 3 per cent. So, whatever you hear today, frankly, you can take it with a pinch of salt unless we get certainty on the money."WATCH ABOVE.
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00:00from the Prime Minister later on this morning. Let's cross live to Westminster to speak to
00:04the Shadow Defence Secretary now, James Cartlidge. Very good morning to you, Mr. Cartlidge. A
00:09lot of it has been briefed out to the press already. What do you make of it?
00:15Good morning, Elliot and Eamon. Thank you for having me on your show. And I think there's
00:19a really key point, isn't it, that the Prime Minister can promise all the ships, submarines,
00:24you know, tanks he wants, but it all has to be paid for. And I think the key question
00:28we have now is that last week, John Healy, the Defence Secretary, said it was absolutely
00:33certain that we would get to 3% GDP on defence. That's incredibly important. Since then he's
00:38backtracked and basically we don't know where the government stands on the money. And that's
00:42really important because the authors of this Strategic Defence Review have written in the
00:47Telegraph today saying that it's entirely based on assumption of going to 3%. So, you know,
00:51whatever you hear today, frankly, you can take with a pinch of salt unless we get certainty
00:55on the money. But, James, it's a little bit difficult to hear from a Conservative talking
01:01about defence spending because you would be accused of not spending what you should have
01:07spent during your years in power. Is that a fair criticism?
01:14Well, Eamon, I mean, first of all, I'd say the last time a government spent 3% was under the
01:19Conservatives in 1996. Now, obviously, since then, it's fallen under successive governments
01:23because there was this sense that we had a new era of peace. It was the end of the Cold
01:27War. I think that's been true around the world. By the way, we still spent the NATO target.
01:32We spent more than most other comparable nations in Europe. And when we were in power, we did
01:37start to increase defence spending. Once we got through that terrible financial inheritance
01:41we had in 2010 when the country was basically bankrupt, we got through that. And under Boris Johnson,
01:45Prime Minister, and Rishi Sunak as Chancellor, they increased defence spending to 2.3%. At the election,
01:50we had a plan to go to 2.5%. But even we have accepted that that's not enough with the world
01:55as it is. A threat from Russia, plus a US president who has quite rightly said, Europe,
02:00including the UK, we need to spend more on our own defence in Europe because they've got
02:04to face the China threat. So when you put all that together, it's got to be at least 3%.
02:07And it's really disappointing that the government have essentially unraveled on whether that is
02:11still their commitment. Yeah, I totally agree with you with what you're saying there.
02:15It's not that we should be sticking to budgets and percentage figures and whatever. We should
02:21be responding to the threat. And whatever the threat is, we need to spend the money dealing
02:26with that, if you understand what I mean. What are you going to say?
02:29Absolutely, Eamon. But just let me explain this. So 2.5% was enough to, if you like, stabilise
02:36the current programmes, fund the current commitments that we had. But if you're going to hear today
02:41about new stuff, you know, new ships, new submarines, whatever those commitments are,
02:45that means more than 2.5%. And I think everyone knows that means you need to get to at least
02:493%. So that's why this question is so important.
02:51Can we go back to your record, please? Because in real terms, defence spending fell by 22% between
02:582010 and 2017. So from 59 billion down to 46 billion. And the size of the army was cut
03:06by 10,000 troops. So this is what the Labour government is talking about when they're saying
03:10that they're having to clean up your mess.
03:13Well, hold on, Ellie. In 2010, Labour in their own manifesto had a plan to cut the size of
03:18the defence budget by 25%. Why was that? Because the country was essentially bankrupt. We had
03:24a very difficult financial position. The deficit that we inherited in 2010 was over 10%. The
03:29one Labour got from us last July was around 4%. The difference about 160 billion pounds.
03:35That's the NHS budget in England last year. So that gives you the scale of the challenge
03:40that we had. Very difficult decisions. The national interest then was to stabilise our
03:45finances. And it was very painful. Government is very, very difficult. But we got through
03:49that. And when we were able to, we started to increase the budget of defence, particularly,
03:54by the way, as the threat position worsened, Russia had gone into Ukraine initially through
03:58its hybrid attack. And then, of course, the all out invasion in 2022. So as the threat position
04:03worsens, you need to spend more on defence. That's why the big question today is how serious
04:07is this government about getting to 3%? Does John Healy have the backing of the Treasury
04:11and the Chancellor Rachel Reeves?
04:13John, if you were a defence secretary, if you were sitting in that job, in that seat,
04:18and you had some influence over the budget and how it was spent, where would you spend
04:24the money? I think the first thing to say is that actually there is an incredible opportunity
04:31today. There should be. Because warfare has changed radically. You saw just yesterday the
04:36extraordinary impact of this drone attack by Ukraine against these Russian nuclear bombers.
04:41Now, when I was defence minister, I came forward with the first ever MOD drone strategy. I feel
04:46they should be front and centre. And the crucial point is this. What they offer is the chance to
04:50boost the lethality of our armed forces, basically their readiness to fight in the near term over the
04:56next few years. We do need the submarines and the big ships, but they take much longer. Those
05:00submarines you've heard about up to 12, they say, they could be in service in the late 2030s. But if
05:05we're to be war ready in a few years, we need to adapt those technologies that give us fighting
05:10power today. So that would be one of my key priorities.
05:12And in the army, because it's something like 69,000 troops as it stands, it desperately needs
05:18to expand, doesn't it? How do we recruit and retain personnel?
05:22Well, Ellie, that's a really, really important question. I think, and I think this would be
05:29important for your viewers, because the last time I appeared on GB News, we were talking about
05:32a very important subject. If this government is serious about recruitment and retention, surely the last
05:38thing it should be doing is getting rid of our legacy legislation on Northern Ireland, which
05:43threatens to reopen that whole series of legal threats against those who served our country all
05:49those years ago. Because that's what I constantly hear from our veterans. What's it going to do for
05:52morale, for retention, for recruitment, if once again, those who bravely served our country to protect
05:58us from terrorism are subject to terrible lawfare pursuits? For me, it's a top priority to stop that from happening.
06:03But James, what you've just said, I mean, I speak as an Irish person who feels, who was around during
06:10the time of the troubles and Bloody Sunday and everything else. Are you just turning a blind eye to
06:16murder? You know, you had people who were off the loop and, you know, not following orders and firing
06:23when they wanted to and have been found guilty of doing so. And the government has apologised for what
06:29happened on Bloody Sunday. You just can't say that if murder was committed, that's OK. We would turn a
06:35blind eye to that. Eamon, I'm not talking about murder, I'm talking about soldiers obeying their
06:42chain of command to keep us safe from terrorists. The key point is, hold on, Eamon, let me respond.
06:47I know you are from Northern Ireland, I know this is very emotive, but we have to be clear what the threat
06:52here is a two-tiered justice system under Keir Starmer. Because, as you know, we did reach peace
06:58in Northern Ireland, it's incredibly important. But those who committed atrocities on the terrorist
07:02side, they're not going to be reinvestigated. It's only those who served in the British Army in Northern
07:08Ireland because of the threat of this change to the legacy legislation. We brought that in, it was
07:12challenging, it's a very complex situation. And I do respect the point you're making, but I have to say,
07:17in terms of the British Army, they were out there serving this country to keep them safe. We've got to
07:21show we've got their back by standing up and not changing the legislation so that they're once
07:26again threatened with lawfare. Even if they committed murder? Are you suggesting they did?
07:35Of course I'm suggesting they did. You only have to look at the record. Of course they did.
07:41Of course they did. It's been proven in Bloody Sunday. It's been proven in West Belfast. Of course they did.
07:46Well, the way our system works is we've had a peace process and we've agreed a new era where we were
07:56meant to end all of this legal persecution. The point is we put legislation in place to stop soldiers
08:02from being reinvestigated. Obviously, if new evidence comes to light that's very substantive,
08:07that points to very serious crimes, it can be looked at and there's a process for that. The danger is that
08:12by removing these legal protections, soldiers who, where there is no sense in any way that they did
08:18anything wrong, on the contrary, we're defending this country, defending our people from terrorists,
08:23will once again be subject to investigation. The point about that in today's context, I think that
08:27will be terrible for morale and terrible for recruitment and retention. Yes, I'm sure it would be,
08:31I absolutely agree, but also it will be terrible for people who committed murder and may get away with it.
08:36And I have total respect for the forces and the job that they had to do. No one is suggesting that,
08:41Eamon. That's a very, very serious point to make. No one is suggesting that for a moment. We had all
08:48those vexatious legal cases fought against British soldiers who served in Iraq. Hundreds of them found
08:53to be totally vexatious. That is the thought of threat you get. The ambulance chasing lawyers who go
08:57after our people knowing full well that they can make money out of it, quite frankly. We don't want to see
09:03those days again. In my view we should keep the law as it is, protect our soldiers, avoid another
09:09era of what we call lawfare against those who served our country. James Cartlidge, thank you very much
09:15indeed. Appreciate what you had to say. Thank you. Have your view, have your say now. Get in touch and tell us
09:23what you think. I mean, what I was not insinuating there was that soldiers should be prosecuted but they
09:31should be investigated and I have witnessed and experienced and seen the effects on communities
09:38of people who were murdered by people who acted beyond the rules and the remits that they were
09:46supposed to be governed by. So, let us know your view. 7.39 is the time. Do stay with us. Coming up,
09:52we'll be going through the papers with Tim Vincent and Dawn Neeson. This is GB News Breakfast with Eamon and Ellie.
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