- 5/15/2025
The infamous Snyder interview from 1981 uploaded in full for the first time- Snyder spends most of the time chain smoking and goading Manson on in any way possible, while a somewhat sedated Manson rues having to talk.
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00:00On the discovery of these crimes in Southern California, a media circus followed.
00:05Banner headlines, normally reserved for the outbreak of war, trumpeted every gruesome detail.
00:10America read that Manson led the marauding killers, that he held drug and sex orgies at his makeshift ranch,
00:16that he commanded others to kill to prove their love and loyalty to him.
00:20At the trial, Manson called himself a child of the system, and some said he had satanic powers.
00:27Now, 12 years later, at the age of 47, Charles Manson remains in prison,
00:31serving a life term at the California Medical Facility at Vacaville.
00:35I interviewed Manson last Saturday at the jail. You will see most of that tonight.
00:39It has been edited only for purposes of time, and also because the language at times was rough.
00:44Very rough. Certain words have been taken out.
00:48Some people might ask, why run the Charles Manson interview?
00:52Well, television is supposed to make all of us look at ourselves.
00:55And that responsibility goes beyond picturing all of us as normal and rational people,
01:00who are suddenly shocked when the time bomb of insanity goes off in our midst.
01:04To not run the Charles Manson interview now would be to ignore his perversity,
01:09and that of others, which now and again disrupts our lives.
01:12To ignore it, to pass the interview by, would mean accepting wickedness and insanity,
01:17in place of dealing with its problems.
01:20The Charles Manson interview will probably provoke dismay, possibly fear, even some anger.
01:25I hope it provokes some thought.
01:28It begins right after this.
01:42Tell me about your life here in prison. Do you read newspapers? Do you listen to the radio?
01:46Do you watch television? Do you communicate with people on the outside?
01:49What goes on for Charles Manson in this prison?
01:55Well, I can feel the grass growing out there on the lawn,
01:58and there's a few trees that's got some leaves on it that I can feel.
02:02And I've been in jail all my life, so I'm actually right here at home.
02:07How long have I been in jail? 34 years?
02:1034 years, so...
02:12Out of 47, you've been here 34.
02:14I've been in jail, prison, a long time, all my life.
02:20I was raised up in here, so I understand jail.
02:23So I understand myself, and I can deal with that.
02:26I set myself, and I do my number, like a convict does his number.
02:31You like jail, don't you?
02:33I don't dislike or like.
02:38Let's go back to 1967,
02:41the time you were winding up serving a term of a number of years, 10 years.
02:46And written accounts indicate that you told the authorities,
02:51don't let me out, I can't cope with the outside world.
02:54Do you have a recollection of that?
02:56You make a desperate plea out of something, man.
02:58There's no desperate plea out of it.
03:00I say, I can't handle the maniacs outside, let me back in.
03:03I didn't use the word desperate, that's your word, Charles.
03:06Yeah, well, your inflection and your voice tones were implications there.
03:12Well, you use the word maniacs on the outside.
03:17How are you different from the maniacs on the outside?
03:21And why do you call them maniacs?
03:23Because you know something, they think you are one.
03:26Yeah, it would reflect.
03:28If you hold the negative up to the light,
03:31you don't see the light, you just see the negative.
03:33So I'm a reflection of your negative, there's no doubt about that.
03:36And I can handle that also.
03:38I've been handled, ain't I?
03:40I don't know, have you?
03:41Well, I've been up and down these damn hallways,
03:43in and out of these nut wards for the last 10 years.
03:45You think you could follow that act?
03:47Don't want to follow that act.
03:48Yeah, I don't want to get into it.
03:49But why do you want to get into that?
03:50What crowd are you playing for?
03:52I'm playing for my life.
03:54You're working for money.
03:57What does that mean, you're playing for your life?
03:59I'm working for my life, mister.
04:00I'm not playing for money, I'm playing for keeps.
04:02You're working for your life.
04:03I'm playing for real.
04:05What does that mean, you're playing for real?
04:07How are you playing for your life?
04:08That's something you can't buy.
04:10When you say you're playing for your life,
04:12am I to assume that you think that someday you're going to get out of here?
04:16Get out of here.
04:21Get out of here, where would I go?
04:23What would you do if you got out of here?
04:25What if they said to you tomorrow morning,
04:27Charles, hey listen, you're free.
04:29You can go wherever you want to go.
04:31Do whatever you want to do.
04:32What would you do?
04:33I'd probably go out in front on the grass and sit down.
04:38For how long?
04:40For right now.
04:44How long?
04:45I wouldn't, I could put a track record on it,
04:48or I could put a computer on it.
04:50Come on down.
04:51No, no, come on down.
04:52Get off computers, get off tracks.
04:53If you got out of here,
04:54there are a lot of people who think you'd go start killing people again.
04:57Again?
04:59Well, you guys are misinformed.
05:00I haven't killed anyone.
05:02What about Shea?
05:05What about him?
05:06Well, what about him?
05:07He got killed.
05:08Well, the word is you killed him.
05:09Word is you stabbed him.
05:10Oh, word?
05:11What does it feel like to kill someone?
05:12Word, Charles.
05:13Word is that you're an old woman.
05:15Word is you have turkey in Skye.
05:17Word is, I don't know what word is.
05:19Somebody else tell you that.
05:20I didn't tell you that.
05:21Did you kill Shea?
05:22Hell no.
05:23Did you cut the human's ear off?
05:24Hell yes.
05:26How did that feel when you cut his ear off?
05:29I felt bad about it.
05:30Isn't the truth fun now?
05:31Yeah, sure.
05:32Okay, you cut his ear off.
05:33What did it feel like?
05:34My goodness.
05:35What did it feel like when you cut his ear off?
05:36Tell me about it, come on.
05:37What did it feel like?
05:38Yeah.
05:39Well, I had done what he said for about 20 years.
05:44I'd done everything he told me to do.
05:47And I got to thinking now,
05:48why don't this guy do something I tell him to do?
05:51And he said, no.
05:54I said, well, how come I'm always doing what you tell me to do,
05:57but then you never do what I say do?
06:00And he said, well, blah, blah, blah.
06:03So I said, now you do what I say.
06:07And he said, no.
06:09I said, you do exactly what I say.
06:11And he said, no.
06:13I'm telling you.
06:14I'm not asking you.
06:15I'm telling you.
06:16You do exactly what I say.
06:19And he said, wow, where'd you get that?
06:22I said, got it from my father in prison.
06:24He gave it to me.
06:25I had a little charm bracelet I used to carry it on
06:27when I was about that big.
06:29Skip that for a second.
06:30Why was it so important for him to do what you say?
06:34Why do you like having people do what you want them to do?
06:37Why do you want to control them, Charles?
06:39Because, wait a minute.
06:40No, no, I was asked.
06:41The dude asked me, he says, you my brother?
06:42I said, yeah, I'm your brother.
06:44He said, how much are you my brother?
06:45I said, completely.
06:47See, if I'm going to explain it to you,
06:49it's not going to be that easy.
06:51So you're going to have to bear with me.
06:53So, Bobby said, he was a young dude,
06:57he said, I'm your brother.
06:58I said, okay.
06:59Bobby?
07:00I'm your brother.
07:01Beausoleil.
07:02Beausoleil.
07:03I just got out of prison.
07:04Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
07:05Yeah.
07:06Let me interrupt you for a second.
07:07Yeah, well, then we're gone with that thought.
07:08No, no, no.
07:09No, because you're getting on this thing.
07:10Then we'll go to another one,
07:11then you'll make me look crazy.
07:12No, no, no.
07:13You can make yourself look crazy, Charles.
07:14I can't make you look crazy.
07:15And please believe me.
07:16All right.
07:17I believe you.
07:18And I'll keep my left hand pocketed for later.
07:20Let me take you back to you wanting this man Hinman.
07:25I cut the dude's ear off because he was over Bobby.
07:29And Bobby was a youngster and really didn't know what the hell he was doing.
07:33He was a kid and he never had no man show him nothing, see?
07:37So I was telling the boy, I said,
07:41the guy, he says, you got my money.
07:44I said, go and get the money or leave him alone.
07:46You're taking me to another story.
07:47No, I'm trying to tell you the same thing.
07:49And we'll be here for a thousand years unless you let me finish.
07:52No, no, no.
07:53We won't be here for that long at all if you'll just speak to this one point.
07:56On that point, why cut the dude's ear off, man?
07:59That's the point.
08:00I didn't ask you that.
08:01I said, why was it important to you to make Hinman do what you wanted him to do?
08:05Because he had a gun.
08:06Okay, and if one follows your story through the times on the ranch down in Southern California,
08:11it was important for Charles Manson to be a leader, to have people follow him?
08:16Come on, district attorney.
08:17See, you've been full of brainwash.
08:19That's a district attorney.
08:21I'm nobody's leader, and I'm nobody's follower.
08:24I got a parole officer, I got a sleeping bag and a guitar,
08:27and I'm staying at an old blind man's ranch.
08:30And that's about the extent of it.
08:31All this occult, all that hocus pocus stuff that you guys are playing,
08:35I don't know nothing about all that.
08:36You know nothing about something called Helter Skelter.
08:38You know nothing about it.
08:39Yeah, I know about Helter Skelter.
08:40It was a song that some people sang.
08:42And that's all it was.
08:43And some other kids picked it up in their minds.
08:45And they said, what do you think Helter Skelter is?
08:48I said, well, I get out of the penitentiary in the 50s,
08:50and everybody's going, thump, thump, thump.
08:52And they're walking like that.
08:53I get locked back up, I get out in the penitentiary in the 65,
08:56and it's going, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump.
08:59And I get locked up again, and I come out in the 69,
09:01and it's going, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump.
09:03And I'm thinking, wow, man, wow.
09:05Wow what?
09:06Well, I was a beatnik.
09:08I was a beatnik in the 50s before the hippies came along.
09:11You know, I cut a rut down through Acapulco,
09:14and I smoked Acapulco before you knew what it was.
09:17And I lived in the tombs, and I was in the Cook County jail in Chicago
09:21when you were playing cricket in high school.
09:24See?
09:25Like you live in another world.
09:27I live in street people's world.
09:45Manson had a little scheme called creepy crawlers.
09:48He'd send people in to move furniture around.
09:50Is that all a figment of somebody's imagination so far,
09:52or is there any truth to that?
09:54Tell me, Charles, I don't know.
09:56It's worse than a fairy tale.
09:58It's a fairy tale.
09:59It's a comedy.
10:01It's a comedy tragedy opera that was played in the early morning.
10:06Come on, Charles.
10:07It was sickening.
10:08Off the space shuttle.
10:09Well, that's what the D.A. gave you for reality.
10:11Okay.
10:12He stood in the courtroom and said,
10:13this man did this and this man did that,
10:15and you all believed him.
10:16He said, this man did that.
10:18And I said, Your Honor, may I speak?
10:19And he said, no, you can't speak.
10:20I said, all right, I've got a voice.
10:21Let me talk.
10:22He said, no, sit down.
10:23Shut up.
10:24Then he handcuffed me and took me to the back and whipped me.
10:26What are you going to do?
10:27I come out and sit down.
10:28I ain't going to get whipped again.
10:29Didn't you stand up in that courtroom?
10:32By the way, by the way, let me just go back.
10:35I felt the repercussions in the back of me.
10:37Okay, but you say the whole thing is a fairy tale.
10:39You say the whole thing is make-believe.
10:41Yeah, that's his helter-skelter.
10:42It wasn't mine.
10:43The body of Sharon Tate is make-believe.
10:45That's make-believe.
10:47That's make-believe to the people that went in there and did what they did.
10:50And who were those people?
10:51You know who they were.
10:53But you know who they were.
10:54Sure I know who they were.
10:55They were with you at the Spahn Ranch.
10:56They were part of this thing called,
10:58if not the Manson family or the Manson cult,
11:00the Manson Ranch.
11:02Call it what you will.
11:03So then what?
11:04And Tex Watson testified in a court of law
11:07that you told him,
11:08go to the house that Terry Melcher used to live in
11:11and kill those people in a most gruesome way.
11:14A man that was once your associate said that of you
11:16and now you sit here and say that's not true,
11:19that's all make-believe?
11:20You've got a stone wall there.
11:21I want you to take it down a little bit.
11:23Look here.
11:24I'll explain something to you.
11:28Tex took the witness stand,
11:29and this is record,
11:31and he said,
11:32I don't know whether I'm Charlie Manson or my mother.
11:37Tex didn't have his own mind one way or the other.
11:40He was balanced back and forward
11:42because I had already took his mind in another game
11:46down the road
11:47that I was playing with some hell's angels
11:49that you don't know nothing about
11:50and you probably never will know nothing about it
11:53because you would have to know those people
11:55to get in that thought, see?
11:58But there's different colors on different people's backs
12:00doing different things.
12:01It's a different world.
12:03I love the world I live in too
12:04just like Regan loves the world he lives in.
12:06You love the world you live in.
12:09Most assuredly, it's me.
12:11You love all the pain that you've caused people,
12:13all the anguish.
12:14Oh, I don't know pain.
12:16I don't know pain.
12:17I have no depth of pain.
12:18I have no depth of suffering.
12:20I don't know ridicule.
12:22I don't know all the bad things.
12:24I haven't been punished by you all my life
12:26since I was 10 years old.
12:27I've been in every reform school you got across the country
12:30and used to lay down and have to get my ass whipped
12:32until I couldn't walk.
12:33Tell me about some pain.
12:35That's our fault.
12:36That's all these people's fault.
12:37No, no.
12:38Make strong, good pain.
12:39Understand pain.
12:40Not bad.
12:42Pain's not bad.
12:43It's good.
12:44It teaches you things.
12:47It teaches you things.
12:48Like when you put your hand in fire,
12:50ow, you know not to do that again.
12:52Yeah.
12:53Yeah, I understand that.
12:54But how come you didn't...
12:55That's the reason I never stick my hand in fire.
12:57But, excuse me,
12:58you've got whipped and put your hand in the fire
13:00since you were a little boy.
13:01I have.
13:02You just told me a couple of minutes ago
13:03that out of 47 years,
13:04you've spent 34 of them behind bars.
13:06Now, that isn't people putting their hand in the fire.
13:08I don't know what is.
13:09What year is that?
13:11The year is not important.
13:13What's important is
13:14you just say that you learned by pain
13:16not to experience again.
13:17Don't put your hand back in the fire.
13:19Why have you been in and out of prisons
13:20for the last 34 of your 47 years?
13:23You call that normal behavior, Charles?
13:25Is that something that you're proud of?
13:26No, no.
13:27I never thought I was normal.
13:29Never tried to be normal.
13:30Normal runs in a little rut down there.
13:32I don't know nothing about being normal.
13:34I've been in jail all my life, man.
13:36I've lived on a handball court.
13:37This guy raised me up.
13:38All the men in the joint raised me up.
13:40Told me what to do,
13:41what was right and wrong.
13:42Told me when to sit down, stand up.
13:43I just did everything I was told.
13:45You know, I got to the end of it
13:46and I just turned around and said,
13:47Wow, all right.
13:48Now that's hard.
13:49And then I went outside
13:50and all these little kids got a hold of me
13:51and said,
13:52We want to stop the Vietnam War
13:53and we want to do this.
13:54What?
13:55It was a war.
13:56I don't know what's happening.
13:57I've been in jail all my life, man.
13:58I never went to vocational.
14:00Rehabilitation.
14:01Never played no rehabilitation.
14:03I sweep the floor in the kitchen.
14:05Go out and play handball.
14:06I'm still 10 years old in your world.
14:09In your world, I'm still a kid.
14:10I'm not going to grow up.
14:11I'm not going to go to college.
14:12How old are you in your world?
14:14Forever.
14:15Since breakfast.
14:16I can't remember how old I was.
14:17I don't know what that means.
14:18Come on, off the space shuttle, Charles.
14:19Yeah, it's off the space shuttle.
14:20How old are you in your world?
14:22How old am I?
14:23I'm as old as my mother told me.
14:26How's that?
14:27Your mother.
14:28How's your mother?
14:29What did your mother tell you?
14:30My mother told me when she worked on Death Row,
14:32and they took that dude in to hang him,
14:34and his head popped off and went down them 13 stairs
14:36and rolled over by her.
14:37Scared the ... out of her.
14:39You know, so I said,
14:40wow, that sure is a far out trip, Mom.
14:43So then when I got up on Death Row in cell 13
14:45for nine counts of murder, 1969,
14:50and I looked at her fears,
14:53that guy's head popping off that hangman's noose,
14:56and I said to myself,
14:57my goodness, what the hell am I doing here?
14:59I didn't want to come here.
15:01I didn't break the law.
15:03The judge knew that,
15:05but the people didn't want to hear it.
15:07The judge knew it.
15:08He washed his hands.
15:09He said, I know it, but what can I do?
15:11People want this.
15:12The judge never said that.
15:13The judge never said that.
15:14That's what Older said.
15:15No, the judge didn't say that.
15:16He got off and shook their hands, didn't he?
15:18The judge did not say that he washed his hands.
15:20He's a flying tiger, man.
15:21For a Madame Chang guy's sake,
15:22I just wrote it up there.
15:23The judge didn't say that you were innocent, Charles.
15:25Innocent?
15:26Let's go back to your mother.
15:27Innocent?
15:28Wait a minute.
15:29Wait a minute.
15:30Let's get back to that word, innocent.
15:31You're so white and pure.
15:32The judge didn't say you were innocent.
15:34Are you innocent?
15:35Innocent of what?
15:36Oh, that's what I'm saying.
15:37None of us are innocent.
15:38Yeah, just because you're convicted in a courtroom
15:40doesn't mean you're guilty of something.
15:41What does mean you're guilty?
15:42Well, you know you're guilty.
15:43And how do you feel about yourself?
15:45Tell me about yourself.
15:46I feel pretty good.
15:56Let me take you back to your mom.
15:58Take me back to her?
16:00What else did she talk to you about besides
16:03the fella whose head popped off?
16:05The head popped off, yeah.
16:07She was living in the Blue Moon Cafe
16:09and she hit a dude in the head
16:10with one of them bottles of Jim Beam whiskey.
16:14She tried to hustle a few dollars on the corner
16:16but there wasn't no money.
16:17So when she jammed this whiskey bottle
16:19upside of that clunker,
16:20she said,
16:22So when she jammed this whiskey bottle
16:24upside of that clown's head,
16:25he went down, she took the bread,
16:27come up and got me and we left,
16:28went to Indiana.
16:32When you were a boy, did you love your mother?
16:35Uh, I didn't know what that was.
16:39Did you respect your mother?
16:41How did you feel about your...
16:42How do you feel about your mom right now?
16:43If your mother...
16:44I don't know if she's alive, Charles, or not.
16:46Yeah, you don't know.
16:47Do you?
16:48Let's see.
16:51Alive now, yeah.
16:54I mean, if she could be watching this right now,
16:57what would you say to her, Charles?
16:59What would you say to my mother?
17:01I'd say,
17:03you sure went through a whole lot of changes
17:05to get me as far as you did.
17:07And you did a damn good job with the help of my grandma.
17:10My grandma was a mountain girl
17:12from Kentucky up in the mountains
17:14and she never did drink or smoke or cuss or lie.
17:19She used to cook for the Salvation Army
17:21and she was a human being.
17:24A good one.
17:26I go to church down there sweeping the floor for her.
17:30Well, how were you in school?
17:32I hear that you weren't too good,
17:33but maybe I heard wrong.
17:34Uh, depends on which school.
17:35I did very well in reform school.
17:37Yeah.
17:38I did good in, uh,
17:40in every place that I was ever told to do good in.
17:44As much as I was allowed to do.
17:46You know,
17:47a lot of times good for some
17:49might not be the same for others.
17:51And sometimes it kind of bumps heads,
17:53but when it does, then, um,
17:56I just chew on my pipe and think about it
18:00and do the best I can.
18:01Mm-hmm.
18:02But you dealt, you dealt the hand down there in L.A.
18:04You and that press,
18:06you and that, uh, L.A. Times,
18:08you dealt the hand.
18:09You put me on Life Magazine,
18:10had me convicted before I walked in the courtroom.
18:13You had what people wanted to buy.
18:15When they wanted to buy it,
18:16they didn't give a damn
18:17if they had to convict a district attorney.
18:18They had to convict the whole building
18:20to get that dollar bill going there.
18:22They had big bucks going there.
18:23They made $27 million, $1,100 billion.
18:25I'm bumming $10, $15 from my friend here.
18:41I've talked about this before,
18:42but I'm going to make it,
18:43I'm going to try it one more time.
18:45Now, uh...
18:47You got a pistol on you?
18:48No, sir.
18:49They wouldn't let me in here if I had a pistol.
18:50You know that as well as I do,
18:51so why even ask the question, okay?
18:53Well, I just thought
18:54you might not like what I've done
18:55and want to do something about it.
18:57I don't much care for what you've done.
18:58Yeah?
19:00A lot of people don't.
19:01How do you feel about that?
19:02Well...
19:03A lot of people think you're a monster, Charles.
19:04Yeah, they think you're a monster
19:05because you reflect this news media on me.
19:08Cult leader.
19:09I never had long hair before I got busted.
19:11I never had a beard before I got busted.
19:13I went to shave and the guy said,
19:14no, you can't shave.
19:16I said, I need a razor to shave.
19:17He said, no, you can't shave.
19:18I said, let me get a haircut.
19:19He said, no, we don't want you
19:20to change your appearance.
19:21So when you put the camera first on me,
19:23you got long hair and a beard.
19:24First time in my life I ever had
19:25long hair and a beard.
19:26You want to shave and get a haircut?
19:27I'll shut them off
19:28or you'll get a shave and a haircut.
19:29Am I telling him right?
19:30I'm not of this generation.
19:31You want a shave and a haircut right now?
19:32I'll shut them down right now
19:33if you want a shave and a haircut.
19:34Yeah, yeah.
19:35I was trying to explain to you, man,
19:36that a lot they pushed off on me is not me.
19:40They said I had a great family
19:41and I was a follower and leaders and all that.
19:43It wasn't followers and leaders,
19:44it was a bunch of kids out at the ranch playing.
19:47To me.
19:48Playing at what?
19:49Playing and living.
19:51The accounts say that you gave them dope.
19:55I'm just saying what the accounts say.
19:56I'm not saying I know it to be so,
19:58so here's your chance to say it wasn't true, okay?
20:01That there was a lot of hanky-panky,
20:02that you turned the girls on
20:03with dope and sex out there.
20:05Yeah, that's what they said.
20:06All right, that's what they said.
20:07Mm-hmm.
20:08Are they wrong?
20:09Oh, well, I went down to Haight-Ashbury
20:13and a little kid 10 years old
20:14come up and said,
20:15you want an acid peel?
20:16I said, what's that?
20:17He said, this is good, make colors go.
20:20I said, no, I heard about them things,
20:21I don't want none of that.
20:23And then another little kid was rolling a joint
20:26and he was sitting there smoking a joint
20:28and asked me if I wanted one.
20:31What'd you say?
20:32I said, I used to smoke this stuff in the 60s
20:34but never in the 50s.
20:36But it really wasn't that, you know,
20:38it was funny, but it's not.
20:39How much dope did you use in your lifetime?
20:41Were you a heavy user of dope?
20:42No, I smoked a little grass,
20:44and I've taken some acid, mescaline,
20:47psilocybin, potty, mushroom,
20:53but actually take dope, no, nothing.
20:56I wouldn't take anything with it
20:57I feel would hurt me.
20:58Do you feel that those things that you just mentioned
21:00hurt you at all, Charles?
21:03Physically or spiritually?
21:05Mentally.
21:06And then on what level?
21:07On the level of society, the way you view the norm?
21:09No, no, no, no, stop the hogwash.
21:12Do you feel that the drugs that you did use
21:15in your earlier lifetime confused you,
21:18altered your mind, juggled it, scrambled it,
21:22made you see things differently?
21:25Stay on that level.
21:28Maybe I find a spirit of caveman
21:33think through brain forever.
21:35Let me try that again.
21:36Do you think the drugs you used hurt you?
21:39Drugs hurt me.
21:40No, I don't think the drugs have hurt me.
21:42If I overdone it, I think it would.
21:44You don't want to be anybody's leader, do you?
21:45No.
21:46Never did want to be anybody's leader?
21:47No.
21:48And don't like attention.
21:51Then why do you...
21:53Most insecure people need attention.
21:55Well, I was just going to say,
21:56then if you don't want attention,
21:57why do you keep...
21:58Why all your life have you kept waving your arms
22:00saying, hey, look at me?
22:02That's what I've been doing all my life.
22:03Well, I would have to say that a young man...
22:05Let's see if I got that documented.
22:07...who by the time he's 20 years old
22:10has been in and out of jails and reformed schools
22:13for a variety of offenses that include
22:15wife-beating...
22:17Wife-beating, now that's...
22:18Never whipped my old lady.
22:19Didn't you?
22:20No, I punched my mother out once.
22:21Oh, you did?
22:22All right, well, we'll call it mother-beating.
22:25Forging checks...
22:26But she was wrong and she lied to me
22:27and beat me for my money
22:28and she didn't do right.
22:30Forging checks, car theft.
22:34I mean, these are ways of waving your arms
22:36and saying, look at me, give me some attention.
22:38Yet you say you don't want any attention.
22:40Now, Charles, that's a contradiction.
22:41Yeah.
22:42That doesn't make any sense.
22:43Well, over a period of about 20 years,
22:45I imagine you'd want to change something.
22:49I'm not very wise to many things,
22:52but I am wise to one thing, you know.
22:57What's that?
23:00I don't know, I'll tell you.
23:01Okay.
23:02You punched your mother.
23:03Did you hate your mother?
23:04No, I loved her.
23:05She's a good girl.
23:07What about your wife?
23:08You were married once, weren't you?
23:09Yeah.
23:10How'd that go?
23:11Why'd you want to get married?
23:12That's kind of conventional.
23:13That's kind of normal.
23:14That's kind of in the rub.
23:15I got married because I wanted to get new...
23:17That's why I got married.
23:19Married for sex was the reason you got married.
23:21Yeah, I didn't know what was happening.
23:22I knew there was something happening,
23:23but no one would tell me,
23:24so I had to find out.
23:25You know, I didn't have books like you guys,
23:26Playboys and stuff in them days.
23:28I had to find out for myself.
23:29Why do you think us guys are all Playboys?
23:31Oh, man, I didn't say you were a Playboy.
23:33That's talking about Playboy magazine type of thoughts, man.
23:36Okay, okay, okay.
23:39You had a son by that marriage, didn't you?
23:42Yeah, I got a kid somewhere.
23:44Do you think about him?
23:46Not about as much as my father did me.
23:49So two wrongs make a right in Charleston.
23:51No, I didn't say there's anything wrong with the way my dad's been taking care of me.
23:54He lets me live.
23:56I'm alive.
23:59I remember you saying,
24:01or being quoted in the courtroom in Los Angeles,
24:04as saying,
24:06the children who came at you with knives
24:09are your children.
24:10Yeah, I didn't raise them.
24:11You raised them.
24:13You are the ones who kicked them out.
24:16You are responsible for what they've done.
24:19That's right.
24:21Just as much as I am.
24:24So you, in my mind,
24:26were criticizing society
24:28for kicking their children out.
24:30Sure.
24:31And yet I've just seen you sit here and say,
24:33yeah, I got a kid somewhere.
24:35How can you criticize other people for kicking their kids out
24:38and you did the same thing?
24:39Difference, difference, difference.
24:40Many levels of difference.
24:42See, my old lady left me and run off with a truck driver.
24:45She said, let's steal a car and go to California.
24:48And I said, man, I ain't gonna steal no car
24:50and go to California and go back to jail.
24:52She says, we won't get caught.
24:54But we didn't get caught.
24:55Just I got caught.
24:56She didn't get caught.
24:58So then she had a kid
24:59and then some truck driver came along
25:01and I was a green kid
25:02and I didn't know what I was doing.
25:03You know, so she said,
25:04you know, I got a ride from you.
25:06I'll see you later.
25:07She took off and got married to somebody else.
25:10You know, she's a good girl.
25:12And besides the son that you had in your marriage,
25:14you've got what, four other children somewhere?
25:16I don't think I've been responsible
25:21for as much as you people want to lay on me.
25:23Well, how many children do you have, Charles?
25:25How many children do I have?
25:27I don't know.
25:28I have lots of children, man.
25:31In fact, sometimes I even think you're a child.
25:34But you just said you don't have any children,
25:37you don't have any family in the context of the ranch.
25:40I'm talking about children that are your natural children.
25:45Children that are my natural ego?
25:48No, children.
25:49Oh, children?
25:50I would divide one child from the other?
25:52All right, somewhere out there somewhere
25:54there's at least one son that we know of that's your child,
25:56who's probably about 25 or 26 years old right now.
25:59Look in that camera.
26:00What do you say to that kid?
26:01What do you say to your son out there
26:03watching his old man on television?
26:04Maybe the first time he's ever seen his old man
26:06with his face all carved up and his eyes glowing.
26:08You talk to that kid.
26:09What do you say to him?
26:11You've got to catch it on your own, boy.
26:14The train's hard.
26:16The road's rough.
26:19And that's it?
26:21That's all I knew.
26:22That's all anyone ever told me.
26:24All right.
26:29And you want to hear something?
26:31Yeah.
26:32He'll do it better than me.
26:33Do what?
26:34Whatever he does.
26:37He'll do it a little better.
26:39Kids do, don't they?
26:41Sometimes.
26:42That's what makes them such a cast.
26:44They always seem to get through.
26:46There was a story about a celebrity hit.
26:48Did you ever kid one?
26:49Absolutely.
26:50Still am in many ways, but not your way.
26:54Oh, my way?
26:55I don't know what my way is.
26:57Everybody keeps telling me I've got all these things.
26:59I read the other day where I had magical powers
27:01and I told everybody in the chapel,
27:03I said zap, zap, zap, zap.
27:04I said, where's my magical powers?
27:06Well, you can't believe what you read in the press.
27:09I ain't got no magical powers, mystical trips,
27:12and all that kind of crap.
27:16Yeah, it's kind of silly.
27:19I'm getting witches and devils.
27:22One guy come up and said,
27:23I heard you said you were Jesus.
27:25I said, no, man, I ain't said nothing.
27:27He said, I'm glad.
27:28He said, I'm damn glad.
27:30I said, why?
27:31He said, I know you ain't him.
27:33I said, how do you know?
27:34He said, because I am.
27:37I said, okay.
27:40But I mean, you know, I've been in the nut ward for 10 years,
27:42so you can't expect me to rationally take this thing serious.
27:48Don't you think you belong in the nut ward?
27:51Well, it's all right.
27:52I could be in there.
27:53I mean, but don't you belong there?
27:54I belong where I'm allowed to go, man.
27:56Like, you know.
27:59I belong there.
28:00Let me nail down one other real simple one.
28:03Now, listen to how simple this is, Charles.
28:05There was a story in the media,
28:07back when the trial was going on,
28:09that Charles Manson had a celebrity hit list.
28:13I don't know who was on it.
28:14Maybe there never was such a list,
28:16but was there a list of people, famous people,
28:20that you thought about harassing, bothering?
28:25If I wanted to harass them,
28:26I just wouldn't watch their TV show.
28:30Charles Manson was harassed.
28:33Charles Manson was harassed.
28:36Charles Manson was harassed.
28:39Talk to me about your life in prison,
28:41in terms of your being in isolation.
28:43You are not on what is called the main line.
28:45You don't, you're not with the prison population here.
28:47How do you feel about that?
28:49Do I feel about it?
28:53I don't feel about it.
28:55Would you rather not be in isolation?
28:57Oh, I've been trying to get on the main line.
28:59I've been trying to get to the prison
29:00for the last 13 years.
29:01Why?
29:03Why?
29:04Walk around, play some handball,
29:06play a little guitar,
29:08do my number, do my time,
29:10like any convict does,
29:11like I've always done,
29:13like my mind has been set to do,
29:15like my past lives have been,
29:19in jail,
29:20doing time in jail.
29:23In fact, when I got out,
29:24I just got outside and sat down.
29:26I wasn't going nowhere.
29:27I gave up, see?
29:30If you were on the main line,
29:33wouldn't you be exposed to some dangers?
29:35Come on, man.
29:36If you're thinking exposure to danger,
29:38then that danger you're thinking
29:39is coming around you.
29:40Well, look what happened to James Earl Ray.
29:42You heard about that, didn't you?
29:43James Earl Ray's got his problems.
29:44I got mine.
29:45But you heard what happened to him.
29:46Have you heard?
29:47He got stuck.
29:48Yeah.
29:4922 people died in India, too.
29:51Got stuck.
29:52And some other people died in Hawaii.
29:53You wouldn't be scared.
29:54People dying all over.
29:55You wouldn't be frightened or afraid, then,
29:57of the prison population
29:59trying to make a hit on you.
30:01Man, I've been staying alive in prison this long
30:07without no help.
30:10What is S-Ward?
30:11It's a nut ward.
30:13What goes on in there?
30:16Whatever goes on in there.
30:20You'd have to ask the people responsible for that.
30:23Well, do they do things to you in there?
30:25Do they do things to me?
30:29That depends.
30:30They give you medication here?
30:31Yeah, they give you medication here.
30:41You on medication now?
30:42No.
30:44No, it took me about a few years to get off of medication.
30:48The medication has toned me down quite a bit.
30:56A whole lot.
31:00That's the reason I like the desert.
31:01When I get out in the desert,
31:03then I can let it out and say,
31:04if I see you within 50 miles,
31:06then we'll know something.
31:09Yeah, I used to love that desert.
31:12Out in the woods and things.
31:13I didn't know you could get out in the woods for 30 years.
31:16How do you feel about spending the rest of your life in prison?
31:21Well, we're all our own prisons.
31:24We each are our own wardens and we do our own times.
31:27We used to get stuck in our own little trips
31:29and we'd kind of judge ourselves the way we do.
31:33You know, I can't judge nobody else.
31:36The best thing I can do is try to judge myself and live with that.
31:39See, what other people do is not really my affair
31:43unless they approach me with it
31:46and want me to do something about it.
31:49Then I'll take into consideration what has to be done.
31:54But other than that, I just try to do my number and do my time.
31:58Get out on the main line, play some tennis,
32:00walk around, make the child a little better, you know.
32:04And then there's a possibility the preacher could teach me something
32:07because the preacher, the reverend, is quite a guy
32:11and I'm finding that two or three doctors here have got a lot of sense.
32:16I mean, as far as I'm concerned, they've got a lot of sense in my world, you know.
32:20And I've tried to shake two or three of them but they're pretty smart
32:23and then they've got some pretty good inmates here
32:27trying to get out and work their lives into a decent sort of way.
32:31Trying to promote harmony, pull ourselves together,
32:35be right, do right,
32:38and have the understanding of what it is
32:42in a congenial form for world peace.
32:46There's a lot of people working for world peace.
32:48Let's assume that one day you were paroled.
32:52Let's just make believe. Do you ever think you will be?
32:56Yeah, do I ever think I will be?
32:59Well, I've never been paroled before.
33:02I went up to the board and they said I was incorrigible.
33:07And not only was I incorrigible, but that I'd never grow up.
33:12And I kind of agreed with them.
33:15I had a war...
33:16I mean, let's just play make believe here for a second.
33:18Let's make believe you're getting out tomorrow.
33:21Tomorrow.
33:22Okay.
33:23And tomorrow creeps this petty face, yeah.
33:26Would you go after anybody, Charles?
33:28After anybody.
33:29Let me try another way.
33:31Do you feel you have any scores to settle with anybody on the outside?
33:35Hmm, let me think.
33:37Now, do I have any scores out there?
33:40And we're making believe, right?
33:42Well, I'll tell you, buddy.
33:58Well...
34:00I don't rightly know.
34:03I'm stupid to the point to where I'm not really sure.
34:09And if you'll ask the question again, maybe the answer will come to you.
34:15What was it again?
34:17If you got out tomorrow, do you have any scores to settle on the outside?
34:20Scores?
34:21You mean people that have done me wrong?
34:23Or you feel you've done you wrong.
34:25Oh, that feel that I've done them wrong?
34:27No, feel that they've done you wrong.
34:28Oh.
34:29That you feel have done you wrong.
34:31Oh, well, most people do themselves wrong.
34:34But would you want to go get anybody?
34:36No.
34:37If you got out?
34:38No.
34:39No, they push, see what they do.
34:41See, they take all that bad and they push it off on each other.
34:44I told the dude, you're doing this to yourself, man.
34:47You know, I've been sitting in there.
34:50In other words, I'm in the cell, right?
34:52And he let me out and I walk around and the guy says,
34:54if you don't do this, we're going to lock you back up.
34:55I said, okay, I don't care anyway.
34:58I only gave up that thought.
35:00That's on your mind, man.
35:01Like, you know.
35:02You sit in the cell and the guy says, you're in prison.
35:04I said, no, I'm just here.
35:06He said, what are you doing?
35:07I said, I'm just sitting here waiting for these people to get done
35:09doing what they're doing so I can get out.
35:11Do you have a television set?
35:12Do you watch television?
35:13Yeah, I used to watch it a little bit.
35:15But it kind of looks, I don't really like it that much.
35:17Okay.
35:18Well, what about newspapers?
35:19Do you get newspapers?
35:20No, I don't bother with those.
35:21I know that they're jiving there.
35:23All right.
35:24Radio?
35:25Listen to the radio?
35:26I listen to a hearts and space program.
35:27I like that.
35:28And the rest of it's just like a bunch of...
35:31There's no...
35:32What about your music?
35:33I get some classical music on the 98 station that's saying something.
35:36Okay.
35:37But what about your own music?
35:38I remember reading that you at one time had a recording stint at a studio in Hollywood
35:43and that you liked guitar and you wrote music or sang music.
35:46Do you still do that?
35:47Yeah.
35:48Yeah, I do that.
35:50Yeah, I do that.
35:52But the way I do it ain't the same way you guys do it.
35:58And the way I do it scares you guys.
36:01So I didn't want to scare you guys out of the neighborhood right away.
36:05So I just took a can and started banging on it, you know?
36:08But we used to have some cosmic gatherings back in the mountains
36:11that would probably shake a Mormon tabernacle choir's eardrums.
36:19You said the kind of music you play scares people.
36:24Why shouldn't people be scared by you?
36:28There's only one person you can be scared of and that's yourself.
36:35Afraid of what?
36:36Losing your bank account?
36:38Afraid of your wife going away?
36:42You have all those things.
36:43I'm not afraid of losing my watch or someone taking my money or robbing me.
36:47I went down to Mexico in the 50s, down where the Yaquis was,
36:50and they said, man, you don't go down where the Yaquis are.
36:53I said, they're terrible.
36:54I said, why?
36:55He said, well, they don't like people like you.
36:58I said, well, they didn't say anything.
37:00But I ask that question in the context that, believe it or not,
37:04there are a lot of people on the outside that think about the possibility
37:08of you coming out of here, and they're genuinely scared.
37:11Oh, boy, I might just make dust.
37:14Everything, terrible.
37:16One little guy, terrible.
37:17Oh, boy, how insecure are we as human beings.
37:21Put all our fear on one little guy.
37:23Afraid to let him out.
37:25Might break all the toys.
37:27Why do you say little guy?
37:30Because I'm not the guy you're trying to make out of me.
37:34That's not me.
37:36That's some guy in somebody's imagination that wanted to make a couple hundred million dollars for himself.
37:40He got rich.
37:42He had a good game going.
37:43He had a better game going than I did.
37:45But he had a good mother to help him.
37:47She helped him in a nice game.
37:48I was kind of over on the sidelines.
37:50See, I had to get around that game and look over the tracks.
37:52Okay, now, here we go on mother again for a second.
37:54You said he had a nice mother to help him.
37:56Does that mean you did not have a nice mother to help you?
37:59Oh, well, I imagine I got a whole lot of nice mothers that would help me.
38:04If I would help them, you know, how much would you help yourself?
38:08When I asked you why you got married, you said for sex.
38:14That's when I was 20 years old.
38:16Yeah.
38:18This is funny.
38:19What kind of sex life is there for Charles in this prison?
38:22Well, I did a little bit now and then.
38:27I try to hide it not to embarrass other people.
38:30But I've been doing it ever since I was 10.
38:33I get to thinking, here I'm an old man sitting in this cell.
38:36That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen, you know.
38:38It looks like I grew up, but I really don't know how yet.
38:42I'm learning.
38:44People are teaching me how to grow up.
38:46Do you miss women?
38:47Certainly.
38:48My goodness, yeah, damn right.
38:50Yeah.
38:52What do you think of women?
38:53Oh, I like them.
38:55Yeah, they're nice.
38:56They're put together well and everything, and they're soft and spongy.
38:59Yeah, they're nice.
39:01As long as they keep their mouth shut and do what they're supposed to do.
39:03Why do you say that?
39:05Because that's what a woman's supposed to do.
39:07Keep her mouth shut and do what she's supposed to do?
39:09Sure.
39:10Who taught you that?
39:11I don't want her snitching on me.
39:41Anything else, Emmons knows when Manson is telling the truth and when he's lying.
39:45He is back tonight with us here in New York, and he's been watching the interview with us,
39:49and I want to get his views on what we've seen so far before we continue with Charles Manson.
39:53So we'll continue with Mr. Emmons from New York in a couple of seconds,
39:56and then go back to Vacaville right after this for the NBC television stations.
40:06Manson in the California prison shortly, but here in New York,
40:09we have a gentleman who, in the words of some authorities, knows Charles Manson better than most people.
40:12His name is Newell Emmons, who went to see Manson about writing a book a year ago,
40:16and they've spent over 300 hours since.
40:19We hired Newell Emmons as a consultant for tonight's program,
40:21and he's here this evening to discuss the interview
40:23and help us understand what is going on in the mind of Charles Manson.
40:27Before that, Mr. Emmons, could you just briefly trace your relationship with Charles Manson?
40:31Where did you meet him, and how did you develop a relationship with him?
40:34Well, I've had a similar childhood as Manson, only unlike him with nobody, I did have people.
40:41So I met Manson in jail in the federal prison, I guess, at Terminal Island in the middle, 56 or so.
40:53And so anyway, not that we lined up together, but I was a few years older than he, but I did know him.
41:01And again, we were both repeats, so then I ran into him again in McNeil Island years later, 59, I guess.
41:09And I came home in 63, and since have straightened out my life,
41:14and after the family was raised and whatever, I began a writing career,
41:19mostly journalistic stuff, sports and newspaper items.
41:23How can we tell when Charles Manson is conning and when he's on track?
41:27I was mystified by this man, as you know.
41:30Well, prior to the interview, I think that he felt that the questioning line was going to be a little bit different.
41:40And I have a rapport with Manson where we talk almost as normal as you and I are talking right now.
41:47And I think when Manson is really unsure of himself, uneasy, he preforms.
41:54But as far as conning, he does con, he pulls your leg to a certain extent,
42:01but if you've noticed, he did not lie, he evaded when he did not want to answer.
42:08So that's a con or a joke in a way, he plays games with people.
42:12Have you and he discussed this evasiveness that surfaces in him from time to time?
42:17And is he more level when you're talking privately without cameras on than he was during this?
42:23Oh, very definitely. You've got to remember, we say a year, you said a year,
42:28but it began in August of 1979 when I first began and renewed our acquaintance.
42:34And at first he denied me. The book wasn't his ideal at all.
42:38He resents being a victim, as he told you in the interview in several places,
42:47that he didn't do the things and it didn't come down as said.
42:51I don't think in essence Manson denies that he's guilty of things and he knows that he belongs in jail.
42:59But the way it was convicted came down in his mind, he has been served an injustice himself.
43:08But we have a very rational relationship. I mean, there are days when I don't gather any material,
43:17but I accept that and come back again another day.
43:21Have you gotten him to the point where he has admitted or discussed any complicity or planning
43:28in the deaths of the people in Southern California?
43:31Or does he shy away from it, as he did here when we got into this lobby angle?
43:35Well, there again, in this interview, he says he referred to you as a prosecuting attorney.
43:42I mean, in his thought, well, some of the questioning line was very similar to a prosecuting attorney's line.
43:49So he rebelled against it immediately.
43:52And we have our moments of rebellion, but yes, but it's his version,
43:59and it is contradictory to Helter Skelter. I mean, not the deaths.
44:03They're there for everybody to see and to know that it happened.
44:07However, there are many, many circumstances that sort of destroys the motive and the image
44:19and everything that previous books have put out about him.
44:23And if I might go on, well, that's where my book is motivated.
44:28It isn't in defense of Manson. I say not in defense.
44:32I think in the first portion of it, I do reach a certain amount of sympathy,
44:37just illustrating a childhood and how he was unlike me.
44:41I had parents that cared, and I had a trade and probably a better understanding.
44:47I don't say that the people in jail raised me like he does, and he is a victim of that.
44:52But I lost my thought. You'll have to come back to me.
44:57No, no. You were saying that your book is not intended to be a defense of Manson
45:02or an apology for him, but that you understand him in terms of his upbringing
45:06without a family, and you're sympathetic towards that.
45:08But then I think probably you part company as his story develops.
45:11Right. Thank you. And anyway, well, he, by his own admission, he doesn't want to be,
45:17and he himself has become a considerable victim of the images.
45:22And you also said on your Wednesday night mention of the show for Friday night
45:29that you didn't find a mystic person or someone with powers.
45:35Well, the book brings that out very clearly, too.
45:38And I, and Manson also, resent those earlier publications.
45:43And he feels, and I feel also, and I bring it out of my book,
45:49that more injustice has been done because of similar books.
45:53That particular book that we mentioned, Helter Skelter,
45:57has done more to create the image and the followers and everything that still persists.
46:02Except that Helter Skelter just didn't come out of the blue.
46:05Vincent Bugliosi didn't make that up out of whole cloth.
46:08I mean, there was a lot of conversation that was tracked among the people involved
46:11in those killings where that thing kept coming out over and over again.
46:15And none of it came out until Susan Atkins made her first confession.
46:20And then once heard, it's almost as power, as Manson himself projects,
46:25power of suggestion and so on.
46:27We have heard it before, and this is our best way out.
46:30And do you think there's anything today, Newell, like a Manson cult?
46:34Does he get letters, to your knowledge, from people who see him as a cult leader
46:38or somebody that they would like to pattern themselves after?
46:41Only after reading the books that have been written previously.
46:45Because he does get letters.
46:47The institution will verify it.
46:49And I've been recipient of letters.
46:51When my first media release on Manson was, I guess, March of 81.
47:00And the paper I worked for, the Ukiah Journal,
47:03naturally you don't give your own address,
47:06but I was a recipient of mail wanting to know how they could get in touch
47:10with Manson and so on, and other peoples other than ones I got,
47:15right to the institution.
47:17Have you ever gotten a letter from a purported Manson follower
47:20saying your book better be fair to him or else?
47:22Any threatening letters?
47:23It's gone further than that.
47:25One particular letter to the Ukiah Journal was from Hawaii.
47:29So I answered it.
47:31What's your interest? What's your concern?
47:33And I ended up meeting the party that wrote the letter.
47:36And, well, where you at on this Manson thing and so on.
47:39And I, a little pride or a little, I won't say pride,
47:43but a little vanity in my writing and a potential book coming up.
47:48I mentioned where I was at and what I was trying to project.
47:51She says, you're the luckiest son of a gun in the world.
47:54Because she was prepared to waste me if I was going to be more detrimental
47:58to Manson than the previous books had been.
48:01So it is an easy role.
48:03And I'm doing it for Manson as well as for myself.
48:08And, well, there's a lot of things.
48:11Because he says he's where he belongs in a sense.
48:17Do you think he is?
48:18Yes, I do think he is at this point.
48:20Because there's, he's probably bitter today than he was in 69
48:25through the things that he's gone through.
48:27Bill Lemons, thank you for being here in New York tonight.
48:29We're going back to Vacaville, California
48:31and more with Charles Manson right after these announcements.
48:49He is?
48:50You know, you were sentenced to the gas chamber
48:52and then they modified the death penalty.
48:54Were you happy when that was done?
48:56Was I happy when what was done?
48:58When you found out that you weren't going to the gas chamber.
49:01You're talking about dying.
49:03Now, it gets me nervous.
49:05Why?
49:06Did you have any thoughts about something?
49:08Was you wanting to go anywhere?
49:13Were you happy when you found out
49:15you weren't going to go to the gas chamber, Charles?
49:17I knew I wasn't going to go to the gas chamber
49:20because I hadn't done anything wrong.
49:24You scared to die?
49:29Sometimes I feel I'm scared to live.
49:32Living is what scares me.
49:34Dying is easy.
49:37Getting up every day and going through this again and again is hard.
49:43See, I'm carrying a heavy thought, see.
49:45The thought I'm carrying is very heavy.
49:49Like I'm on a football team and everybody's...
49:53I'm a little guy.
49:55I don't have no home team.
49:58You got all the home...
49:59I got one cheerleader.
50:03Or one coach.
50:07See, you got me at a disadvantage
50:09because I'm on your ground, see.
50:12So, and this is your street, I reckon.
50:16You got the cameras and the money and the things.
50:18But you can believe me that
50:20Bully Osis had you all on a rib.
50:23And all the guys that sold you most of that stuff
50:25sold you a bunch of things that weren't...
50:28weren't real.
50:30Not to me.
50:32We used to have games we would play on the movie set.
50:35We would take on different people.
50:37I'd be Riff Raff Racks.
50:39And Steve would be John Jones,
50:41just a regular guy.
50:43And I'd be...
50:45And Steve would be John Jones,
50:48just come in from Minneapolis and driving a truck.
50:51And we'd just take other people and play after other people.
50:55And then we lost track of who we were.
50:59And it went off into other dimensions and levels of thought
51:03and understanding and comprehension
51:05that were beyond most people's minds,
51:09functions, computers, data.
51:12So...
51:16All I did was watch and learn everything I could
51:18from everybody I ever met.
51:20Then when I got out of prison,
51:22I just walked around.
51:25I didn't tell nobody to do nothing.
51:28I said, do what you want to do.
51:30Don't tell me what to do.
51:32I don't like people telling me what to do.
51:34They just come from a place where they told me what to do all my life.
51:37I want to find out what to do for myself.
51:39I never did.
51:42Not yet.
51:45But I was going to take a trade one of these days,
51:47maybe learn to be a welder or something.
51:56Until I can get to the front gate anyway.
52:13When people were killed,
52:15how did you get involved in that drama?
52:18Well, I was born...
52:22illegitimately.
52:24That put me on the other side of the law.
52:26I've been an outlaw ever since I was born.
52:29I went to reform school when I was about ten.
52:32And I learned to box and cry.
52:35And I learned to do all the things that you do in reform school.
52:38Then I went to...
52:40I escaped there a bunch of times.
52:42And I went to prison.
52:43And I learned everything that you do in prison.
52:45And I talked to all the guys and asked them everything they knew.
52:48And they told me all the things they knew.
52:50And then I went to the end of it.
52:52And then the old man would be ready to die.
52:55And he'd say, well, son, sincerity is the best gimmick.
52:57Remember that.
52:58And I'd say, all right, be sincere.
52:59That'll win it.
53:00He said, that's it.
53:01Sincerity and honesty.
53:02He said, it'll do it.
53:03It'll trick them every time.
53:05I said, well, sincere and honesty.
53:06I never tried that.
53:08I tried everything else.
53:09But maybe I'll try sincere and honesty.
53:12So then I looked in the book and it said, the wages of sin is death.
53:16Now I figured, well, I don't want to die.
53:18So maybe I have been sinful here.
53:20Maybe I am wrong.
53:21Maybe I'll take a look at my life and say, well, I'm going to change it and start all over.
53:26You know, and I know I go to God and I say, hey, man, you're going to forgive me?
53:30And he's going to say, what do you do?
53:31You forgive you?
53:33I mean, what did you come to me for?
53:35Forgive yourself, man.
53:36Don't be bothering me.
53:37You know, and I think, well, he must be a big, mighty God, man.
53:40He just, you know, he ain't got time.
53:41He's got to make an appointment or something, you know.
53:43So I see the whole aspect of the whole trip for children to play, you know.
53:49Then I get stuck in the game of playing the goat here or the lamb or the, or the, some other trip.
53:55I was a teddy bear and then I was a, a goofball and whatever.
54:00And, uh, what is the real one?
54:05Where's the real one?
54:06I don't know where the real one is.
54:08It's in a nut ward somewhere.
54:13The real Charles Manson, hardly the glowering, sinister and assertive mastermind that was pictured of his life
54:19before and after the Tate-LaBianca killings in Los Angeles.
54:23The real Charles Manson appears to be confused and frightened.
54:26Confused, if you recall his admonition, that we look at ourselves to better understand him.
54:31Yet each time I pressed him on details about the murders, Manson could not even look at himself
54:36nor his relationships with his mother, his wife and his son.
54:40And he's frightened.
54:41During our conversation, you recall Manson said, I'm living, aren't I?
54:45They let me live, didn't they?
54:46Followed by that little nervous laugh.
54:48The man does not want to die.
54:51I think he's frightened by death and I think that he is as scared of us as we are of him.
54:55I get the feeling he'll be quite content to spend the rest of his life playing mind games in the jailhouse.
55:00And I also believe that Charles Manson knows exactly what he's done.
55:05A word about what you might think was my belligerence with Manson.
55:09I lived in Los Angeles all during this trial.
55:11I still live there from time to time in a quiet neighborhood just across the canyon
55:15from where Sharon Tate and the others were murdered.
55:18At work by day, I broadcast the six o'clock news in Los Angeles,
55:21the whole story of the trial, the shaved heads, the car foreheads,
55:25the harangues and threats in the courtroom.
55:27And by night, I tried to assure my young daughter that, yes, even though the murder house was close by,
55:32Charles Manson and company were under lock and key and there would be no creepy crawlers in the night.
55:37So it was that Manson I was listening to and not the one who now sits alone in a faraway prison
55:43where, barring a most perverse miracle, he will spend the rest of his life.
55:48Thank you for watching and good night, everybody.
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