Luiz Felipe D’Avila recebe William Ury, professor de Harvard e um dos mais renomados negociadores do mundo. Ury relembra trabalhos importantes que ele realizou com grandes líderes mundiais e analisa como é possível romper as barreiras da polarização através do entendimento de ideias.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:00Olá, bem-vindos. Toda semana
00:10temos um encontro marcado para
00:12falarmos sobre os assuntos mais
00:14importantes do momento e sempre
00:16com um convidado especial.
00:18Conflitos fazem parte da natureza
00:21humana e surgem todas as vezes
00:23que expressamos as nossas
00:25diferenças. Conflitos permitem
00:27pessoas e sociedades a
00:29enfrentar os reais problemas que
00:32impedem o progresso pessoal e a
00:34evolução do país. A questão
00:36central é como transformar
00:38conflitos destrutivos em algo
00:41construtivo capaz de ajudar
00:43pessoas, empresas e nações a
00:45superar problemas, prosperar e
00:48restabelecer a paz e o
00:50entendimento. Essa é a missão de
00:53vida de William Uri, professor
00:55de Harvard e um dos mais célebres
00:58negociadores do mundo. Onde há
01:01encrenca e conflito e desavença,
01:04Bill Uri é chamado por presidentes
01:06de países, primeiros ministros de
01:08governos e CEO de companhias para
01:11ajudá-los a enfrentar as
01:13negociações mais difíceis. Bill Uri
01:16ajudou a resolver conflitos no Oriente
01:18Média, nos Balcãs, na Colômbia, onde
01:21colaborou para o acordo de paz entre o
01:24governo e as FARC, a organização
01:26terrorista que manteve o país engajado
01:28numa guerra civil por 50 anos. Bill Uri
01:32lançou recentemente no Brasil o livro
01:35Sim, é possível sobreviver e prosperar
01:39em uma era de conflitos. O tema é muito
01:43apropriado para os nossos tempos de
01:45conflito, populismo e radicalismo.
01:49Bill, é um grande prazer recebê-los
01:51aqui no Entrevista com o Davila.
01:53É um grande prazer, um grande prazer,
01:57Felipe. Bill, seu livro é fantástico
02:01porque em um tempo, em um
02:04tempo de conflitos, nós temos de
02:06crescer, em uma forma, nós temos de
02:08sair dessa camada de radicalismo e
02:12populismo. E você deu um muito
02:14bom framework. Eu gostaria de ir
02:16com você através do framework e
02:18depois entrar em um real caso.
02:20Então, a basic coisa em seu
02:23framework, a primeira coisa, é ir para
02:25o balcão. Expla para as pessoas
02:27por que ir para o balcão e ter uma
02:30perspectiva mais ampla é vital para
02:33transformar um conflito destrutivo
02:35em um conflito construtivo.
02:39Porque o mais difícil adversário que
02:43enfrentamos em qualquer conflito não é
02:46no outro lado da mesa. É a pessoa
02:48aqui, no outro lado da mesa.
02:50Felipe, é a pessoa que eu olho no
02:53mirror every morning.
02:54É meu maior opção. Porque human
02:57beings, we're reaction machines.
03:00E quando we react, we often act in
03:02ways that go exactly contrary to
03:05our own intention, to our own
03:06interests.
03:07There's an old saying that when
03:08angry, you will make the best
03:11speech you will ever regret.
03:14And that happens often.
03:16Hence, the importance of being able
03:18to pause for a moment, even if it's
03:21just for a microsecond in the middle
03:23of a conversation.
03:24But even better, sometimes, you know,
03:25take a little break where you can go
03:28to... It's almost like you're
03:29negotiating on a stage.
03:31And part of your mind goes
03:34to a mental or an emotional balcony
03:36overlooking that stage, which is a place
03:38of calm and perspective and self-control
03:43where you can keep your eyes on the prize.
03:47You can remember what is most important
03:49to you.
03:50What are you actually trying to achieve?
03:52And from that wider perspective, you can
03:54see the whole play.
03:56You can see the whole drama.
03:57You can see not just the characters in
03:59front of you, but the characters who are
04:00not in front of you.
04:01All the personalities.
04:03And from that perspective of the balcony,
04:06that's when we negotiate most
04:07effectively.
04:08That's when we dialogue most
04:10effectively.
04:11That's when we can make genuine
04:12progress.
04:14But Bill, usually people
04:16has a certain conflict
04:18between their real interests
04:20and their position
04:21because they have to go back
04:23to their stakeholders
04:24and justify the decision.
04:26And sometimes
04:27they end up opening up
04:30or giving up their real interest
04:32because of their position.
04:34How can you avoid this trap?
04:38Well, by going to the balcony first
04:40and making the distinction,
04:42which many of us do not make,
04:44which is this distinction between
04:45our positions, which are the things
04:47we say we want,
04:49our organizations,
04:51our parties say we want.
04:52Those are the positions.
04:54The interests
04:55are the real motivations,
04:58the deeper interests
04:59or needs
05:00or concerns
05:01or fears
05:02or aspirations
05:03or dreams
05:04that lie underneath
05:05the positions.
05:07And it's
05:07so often in life,
05:09you know,
05:09we go,
05:11we try to go for our position.
05:12You know, we want this.
05:13You know, we want independence.
05:15For example,
05:16you know,
05:16for example,
05:16if you're a guerrilla,
05:17you know,
05:18a secessionist group,
05:19we want independence.
05:20I remember being,
05:21you know,
05:22working with,
05:22mediating between
05:23a secessionist group
05:25in Indonesia
05:26and the government
05:26of Indonesia.
05:27we want independence
05:28and we've been fighting
05:2925 years for it
05:30and we've lost
05:31thousands of lives
05:32for it.
05:33But when I asked them,
05:35tell me something,
05:36I understand you want
05:37independence,
05:38but why?
05:40Why do you want
05:41independence?
05:43Why are you fighting
05:44for independence?
05:45Then there was a little
05:46bit of a silence,
05:47like,
05:48we know what our,
05:49we know what our position
05:50is,
05:50but do we really know
05:51what our strategic
05:52interests are?
05:53Are we fighting
05:54for sovereignty?
05:55Are we fighting
05:56for control
05:56over natural resources?
05:58Are we fighting
05:59for a flag
06:00at the UN?
06:01What do we want
06:02the rights
06:03to speak our own language
06:04or practice
06:05our own religion?
06:06And what's so fascinating
06:08is that when you go,
06:09you may not be able
06:10to get your position.
06:11In this case,
06:12they weren't militarily
06:13stronger than the
06:14government of Indonesia.
06:15But once they understood
06:17what their interests were,
06:19then they could negotiate
06:21and they were able
06:22to satisfy many
06:23of their interests
06:24even if they weren't
06:26able to get
06:26their independence.
06:28It's interesting.
06:30I remember one phrase
06:31of Jean-Claude Juncker
06:33who was at the time
06:34in the European Union.
06:37He said,
06:37we all know
06:38what we want,
06:40but the problem is
06:40we don't know
06:41how to get re-elected.
06:42Well,
06:43that's a big problem.
06:45And from a perspective
06:46of the balcony,
06:48sometimes,
06:48you know,
06:49politicians know
06:49what they have to do with,
06:50but they said,
06:51well,
06:51I don't know
06:52how to justify this
06:53for my stakeholders.
06:56Do you think
06:57before we go
06:58to the balcony,
06:59we have to know
07:00exactly what are
07:02our interests
07:02and how we will justify
07:04this for the stakeholders?
07:05the reason to go
07:08to the balcony
07:08is on the balcony
07:09in that place
07:10of perspective,
07:11Felipe.
07:11That's where you
07:12can take a step back.
07:14You can zoom in
07:16deep into yourself
07:18or deep into your
07:19stakeholders
07:19and you can map out
07:21for once.
07:22On the balcony,
07:22you map out
07:23who are all the parties
07:25in this negotiation.
07:27There are stakeholders,
07:28there are constituents,
07:29there's this faction
07:30of the party,
07:31there's that faction
07:32of the party.
07:32You map it all out
07:34and each one of them
07:35may have different interests.
07:37And once you understand
07:38the play of interests,
07:40then you're best prepared
07:42to be able to negotiate
07:44in a way
07:44that satisfies
07:45enough of the key interests
07:47of enough of the key stakeholders
07:48to make genuine progress.
07:51Well,
07:51the second step
07:53that you brought up
07:54in your book
07:54is after you're
07:56in the balcony
07:56and you understand
07:58what your real interest
07:59and mapping
08:00the stakeholders,
08:01you have to create
08:03the golden bridge.
08:05This is the most difficult part,
08:07which means
08:07how can I put myself
08:10in the shoes
08:10of the other side
08:11and try to find
08:13the minimum
08:13common denominator
08:15in order to establish
08:17this golden bridge?
08:19Tell us a little bit
08:20how can we build
08:21golden bridges?
08:24Well,
08:24it's almost as if
08:25in a negotiation,
08:26in any conflict,
08:27you know,
08:28we're right over here,
08:29our position's right here,
08:30the other side's position
08:31is right over here.
08:34In any conflict,
08:36we're over here,
08:36our position is here,
08:38their position
08:39is over there.
08:41And there's a big gap
08:42between the two,
08:43like a chasm.
08:44And the question is,
08:46how do we bridge
08:47that gap?
08:49Now,
08:50normally speaking,
08:51what we do
08:51is we say,
08:52you know,
08:52come on over
08:53to our position.
08:54You better come
08:54over to our position.
08:55And they're saying,
08:56come on over
08:56to our position.
08:57And neither one
08:58is moving,
08:59right?
08:59So the question is,
09:01for a moment,
09:03what you need to do
09:04to build that bridge
09:05is knowing
09:07what your interests are,
09:08you have to leave
09:09for a moment
09:10where your position is,
09:12put your mind
09:13in their shoes
09:15where their position is,
09:16understand them,
09:18understand their interests,
09:19and then use
09:20that understanding
09:21to persuade them
09:23to come over
09:24to your side.
09:25In other words,
09:26you need to build
09:26a bridge for them
09:28from where they are
09:29to where you are
09:30so that they move
09:31in the direction
09:31you want them to move.
09:33There's an old
09:34French negotiator
09:35who wants to find
09:35negotiation
09:36as the art
09:38of letting
09:39the other side
09:40have your way.
09:42Letting the other side
09:43have your way.
09:45In other words,
09:45you need to make it
09:46as easy as possible
09:48for the other side
09:50to move
09:50in the direction
09:51you want them to move
09:52because usually
09:53in conflict,
09:54our actions
09:55make it harder for them
09:57and we think our job
09:58is to make it harder
09:59for them
09:59but actually,
10:00our job paradoxically
10:01is the opposite.
10:03It's to make it easier
10:04for them
10:04to make the decisions
10:06we want them to make.
10:08It's to build them
10:09a golden bridge
10:10which is a phrase
10:11that comes from Sun Tzu
10:12from the art of war.
10:14How do you build
10:15the other side
10:16and in this case,
10:17the enemy?
10:18How do you build them
10:19a golden bridge
10:20to retreat across?
10:22How do you make,
10:23I see it more positively
10:24is how do you build them
10:25a golden bridge
10:26to advance across
10:27to a solution
10:29that meets
10:31their core interests
10:32and of course
10:33satisfies yours?
10:36And one of the best
10:37exercises
10:38as a thought experiment
10:40that I like to use
10:42is you begin
10:44by writing
10:47the other side's
10:48victory speech.
10:50In other words,
10:51imagine
10:52that the other side,
10:55just as a thought experiment,
10:56the other side
10:56agrees with you.
10:57They say yes,
10:58they will do
10:59what you want them to do.
11:00They will adopt
11:01your position.
11:02They will,
11:03you know,
11:03it's miraculous
11:04but they say yes.
11:05Now,
11:06they have to go
11:07in front of
11:08their constituents,
11:10their stakeholders
11:11and explain to them
11:13why they've decided
11:14to make an agreement
11:15with you.
11:17See if you could
11:18write that
11:19as a victory speech.
11:20What would be
11:21the three key points
11:22they could
11:23announce
11:24to their constituents
11:25about why this agreement
11:26is good for them?
11:28Write that victory speech
11:30and then see your job
11:31as helping them
11:33deliver that victory speech.
11:35How can you help them
11:36deliver that victory speech
11:37in which they agree
11:38to what you want them
11:39to agree?
11:42That's a very tough one
11:44but well,
11:45let's get
11:45today we have
11:48a situation
11:48that we have
11:49a very big crisis,
11:51a big conflict
11:51in the world order.
11:53Let's say that
11:54the big victory speech
11:57of Donald Trump
11:59would be
11:59well,
12:00I restored
12:01justice in trade
12:03with America.
12:04I brought
12:05peace to the world.
12:07I end up
12:08the conflict
12:08in Ukraine.
12:10And then the victory speech
12:11let's say
12:12from Europe
12:13is
12:13we kept
12:15our independence
12:16we became
12:18stronger
12:19and we were able
12:21to make Europe
12:22grow again
12:23as economy.
12:25So you have
12:26two victory speeches.
12:28How
12:28who are
12:29the people
12:30who will build
12:31this golden bridge?
12:33Society?
12:34Well,
12:35politicians?
12:37I think it's
12:38a combination
12:39actually.
12:40It's going to be
12:41farsighted,
12:43good negotiating,
12:45good negotiator leaders
12:46on both sides
12:49on both sides
12:49and it's going
12:51to take
12:51societal leaders
12:53whether leading
12:54business leaders,
12:55leading civil leaders
12:56of some kind
12:57because
12:58it's a
12:59conflict
13:00not just
13:00between two nations
13:01or between
13:02two political entities
13:03but also between
13:04it affects deeply
13:06the societies.
13:07It affects,
13:07for example,
13:08the commerce
13:08and the business
13:10between Europe
13:11and the United States
13:12in this case.
13:13But I think
13:13what you can see
13:14is that you just,
13:15for example,
13:15you just gave
13:16those victory speeches
13:17for Trump
13:18and for the European
13:19leadership
13:20and you can see
13:22that when you write
13:23those victory speeches
13:24even though right now
13:25it seems very difficult
13:27for the United States
13:28and Europe
13:28to come together
13:29but once you write
13:30those victory speeches
13:31you can see,
13:32there could be ways
13:34in which
13:34Trump could
13:37give his victory speech
13:38he's very good
13:40at declaring victory
13:41as you've noticed
13:41and he can frame things
13:45and at the same time
13:46Europeans can deliver
13:47their victory speech
13:48of we've
13:49established our independence
13:50we're on our own feet
13:53we can defend ourselves
13:55and we can
13:56have Europe prosper.
13:58it's not
13:59it's still possible
14:00for
14:01it's still possible
14:02for that to happen
14:03because the nature
14:04of reality these days
14:05even though
14:06there's a rhetoric
14:07of who's going to win
14:08who's going to lose
14:09right
14:10a winning
14:10losing rhetoric
14:11the reality is
14:13of the world
14:13is still
14:14there's such intense
14:15interdependence
14:16as for example
14:17between Europe
14:18and the United States
14:19that either
14:21you're going to get
14:21to solutions
14:22that are positive
14:23some
14:24where both sides
14:25meet their interests
14:28where it's a so-called
14:29win-win
14:29or you're likely
14:31to end up
14:31with lose-lose
14:33negative sum
14:33where both sides
14:35end up losing
14:36and the danger
14:37right now
14:38is with tariff wars
14:39for example
14:40it's very easy
14:41to get into a spiral
14:43which leads
14:44to everybody losing
14:45and that's
14:46that's the key
14:47that will take
14:48real leadership
14:48to prevent
14:50that spiral
14:50from going
14:51into the negative
14:52territory
14:53and keep it
14:54in a place
14:55where there can be
14:56mutual gain
14:58for both entities
14:59yeah
15:00I think
15:00we have today
15:01two destructive
15:03possibilities
15:04and that's
15:05how we have
15:06to avoid
15:06and thrive
15:07as you said
15:07in your book
15:08the first one
15:09is a tariff war
15:10that will
15:12hinder
15:13international commerce
15:14and the second one
15:16perhaps more dangerous
15:17yet
15:18is proliferation
15:19of nuclear weapons
15:21because
15:22you know
15:22countries will feel
15:23insecure
15:24say that we cannot
15:25be no longer
15:26protected by the
15:27american nuclear
15:29umbrella
15:29so we have to
15:30build our own
15:31nuclear arsenal
15:32so those are two
15:33negative spirals
15:35how do you
15:36perceive
15:37that we can
15:39transform this
15:40destructive spiral
15:42into a constructive
15:43one
15:44through a lot of
15:47constructive
15:49skillful
15:50intelligent
15:50negotiation
15:51where
15:53you really
15:54try to understand
15:55the other side's
15:56interests
15:56all the interests
15:57involved
15:58and where you
16:00it's going to
16:01take
16:01it's going to
16:04take
16:04not just the
16:05leaders
16:06but behind
16:07the scenes
16:08back channel
16:09trusted
16:10intermediaries
16:12who can work
16:14on both
16:14sides
16:15to try
16:16you know
16:17out of the
16:17news light
16:18out of the
16:19social media
16:20but working
16:21to craft
16:22intelligent
16:24agreements
16:25that address
16:26the interests
16:27of both
16:28parties
16:29or in this
16:30case many
16:30different parties
16:31and allow
16:32things to move
16:33on
16:33you know
16:34you just had
16:35for example
16:35in germany
16:38last week
16:38there was
16:41this
16:41very
16:42tight
16:42window
16:43where
16:44the german
16:45political
16:46parties
16:46had to
16:47agree
16:47to lift
16:49off the
16:50debt
16:50break
16:50so that
16:51germany
16:51could borrow
16:51more money
16:52so it
16:53could
16:53support
16:54ukraine
16:55support
16:56you know
16:56basically
16:57grow as a
16:58society
16:58and re-adapt
16:59to the
17:00modern world
17:00they needed
17:01to do
17:02that
17:02and you
17:03know
17:03there was
17:04a lot
17:04of
17:04tussle
17:05between
17:05the different
17:06forces
17:06in germany
17:07but they
17:07were successful
17:08in doing
17:09that
17:10so that
17:10there's
17:10a way
17:11that germany
17:11now can
17:12expand
17:12the pie
17:13rather than
17:14just quarrel
17:15about
17:15a fixed
17:16pie
17:17or even
17:17a shrinking
17:18pie
17:18bill
17:20and this
17:21is a very
17:22important
17:22point
17:23and you
17:23gave
17:23in your
17:23example
17:24in your
17:25book
17:25that called
17:26me
17:26attention
17:27the first
17:27one
17:28that
17:28you end
17:29up
17:29appealing
17:30to
17:30a
17:31former
17:31basket
17:32player
17:32rodman
17:33in order
17:34to try
17:34to
17:34talk
17:35to
17:35north
17:36korea
17:36and
17:37I
17:38think
17:38that
17:38was
17:38a
17:39very
17:39good
17:39example
17:39the
17:40second
17:40example
17:40that
17:41you
17:42have
17:42illustrated
17:43is
17:43the
17:44question
17:44of
17:44camp
17:44david
17:45how
17:45camp
17:45david
17:46was
17:46the
17:46perfect
17:46scenario
17:47for
17:48understanding
17:49between
17:49two
17:50antagonist
17:50power
17:51at that
17:52time
17:52egypt
17:53and
17:53israel
17:53please
17:54tell
17:55tell us
17:56tell us
17:56a little
17:56bit
17:56about
17:56those
17:57two
17:57examples
17:58that
17:58shows
17:59quite
17:59well
17:59how
18:00can
18:00you
18:00work
18:01backstage
18:01in
18:02order
18:02to
18:03try
18:03to
18:03bring
18:04a
18:05better
18:05atmosphere
18:06for
18:06a
18:06deal
18:07for
18:07understanding
18:08for sure
18:10felipe
18:10in the
18:11case
18:11of
18:12north
18:12korea
18:12this
18:12was
18:13in
18:13the
18:14first
18:14trump
18:14administration
18:15kim jong
18:16un
18:16the
18:17dictator
18:17of
18:17north
18:17korea
18:18was
18:18busily
18:18building
18:19nuclear
18:20weapons
18:20and
18:21testing
18:21nuclear
18:22missiles
18:22and
18:24threatening
18:26and
18:26president
18:27trump
18:28said
18:28that's
18:28not
18:29going
18:29to
18:29happen
18:29i'm
18:30not
18:30going
18:30to
18:30let
18:30that
18:31happen
18:31and
18:32drew
18:33a
18:33red
18:33line
18:33and
18:35and
18:35then
18:35they
18:36started
18:36insulting
18:36each
18:37other
18:37you
18:37remember
18:37a
18:38little
18:38rocket
18:38man
18:38and
18:39vile
18:39old
18:39dotard
18:40and
18:40trump
18:41threatened
18:41fire
18:41and
18:42fury
18:42he
18:42was
18:42going
18:42to
18:42eliminate
18:43the
18:43you
18:43know
18:43just
18:44totally
18:44destroy
18:45the
18:45country
18:45of
18:45north
18:46korea
18:46and
18:47vice
18:47versa
18:47and
18:48experts
18:49were
18:49worried
18:49that
18:49there
18:52chance
18:52since
18:52the
18:53cuban
18:53missile
18:53crisis
18:54of
18:54a
18:55nuclear
18:55war
18:55which
18:56would
18:56be
18:56absolutely
18:57devastating
18:58for
18:58the
18:59korean
18:59peninsula
18:59but
19:00for
19:00the
19:00world
19:00you
19:00know
19:00millions
19:01and
19:01millions
19:01of
19:01people
19:02would
19:02die
19:02and
19:03and
19:04for
19:04the
19:04world
19:04economy
19:04would
19:05go
19:05into
19:05depression
19:05because
19:06you
19:06know
19:06you
19:06have
19:06all
19:06the
19:07all
19:07the
19:08makers
19:08of
19:08computer
19:09chips
19:10and
19:10semiconductors
19:11you
19:11know
19:11samsung
19:12and all
19:12of
19:12those
19:12over
19:13there
19:13in
19:14Seoul
19:14so
19:14we
19:18began
19:18my
19:19colleagues
19:19and I
19:20by
19:20writing
19:21Donald
19:21Trump's
19:22victory
19:22speech
19:23and
19:23Kim
19:24Jong
19:24Un
19:24victory
19:24speech
19:25because
19:25they
19:25were
19:25going
19:25towards
19:26war
19:26but
19:26is
19:27there
19:27a
19:27victory
19:28in
19:28which
19:28they
19:28don't
19:28go
19:28to
19:29war
19:29and
19:30you
19:30know
19:30Trump
19:30needed
19:31to
19:31be
19:31able
19:31to
19:31say
19:31look
19:32I
19:32made
19:33the
19:33best
19:33deal
19:34ever
19:34the
19:35deal
19:35of
19:35the
19:36century
19:36you
19:36know
19:36the
19:37deal
19:37of
19:37the
19:37millennium
19:38I
19:38saved
19:39you
19:40know
19:40humanity
19:40from
19:41a
19:41nuclear
19:41war
19:41I
19:43kept
19:43America
19:43safe
19:44and
19:45I
19:45didn't
19:45spend
19:46a
19:46penny
19:46you
19:47know
19:48if
19:48you
19:48think
19:48about
19:48the
19:48three
19:49points
19:49of
19:49his
19:49victory
19:50speech
19:50Kim
19:51Jong
19:51Un
19:51if
19:52you
19:52looked
19:52at
19:53it
19:53put
19:53yourself
19:53in
19:53his
19:54shoes
19:54he
19:54needed
19:54to
19:54be
19:54able
19:55to
19:55say
19:55I
19:55kept
19:56my
19:56family
19:57my
19:57regime
19:58my
19:59country
20:00safe
20:00you
20:01know
20:01security
20:02was
20:02number
20:02one
20:03number
20:04two
20:04was
20:04we're
20:04finally
20:05getting
20:05the
20:05respect
20:06that
20:06we
20:07deserve
20:07from
20:07the
20:07world
20:08because
20:08they
20:08feel
20:08very
20:09stigmatized
20:09and
20:10disrespected
20:10and
20:11the
20:11third
20:12was
20:12we
20:13have
20:13a
20:13chance
20:13now
20:13to
20:14become
20:14the
20:14next
20:14Asian
20:15Tiger
20:15you
20:16know
20:16we
20:16can
20:16you
20:17know
20:17so
20:17he
20:17had
20:18to
20:18be
20:18able
20:18to
20:18say
20:18something
20:18like
20:19that
20:19and
20:20if
20:20you
20:20thought
20:21about
20:21it
20:21then
20:21then
20:22but
20:22the
20:22question
20:23was
20:23you
20:24know
20:24in
20:25order
20:25to
20:25build
20:25the
20:25bridge
20:25you
20:26need
20:26to
20:26know
20:26something
20:26about
20:27the
20:27other
20:27side
20:27and
20:28in
20:28this
20:28case
20:28hardly
20:29anyone
20:30knew
20:30anything
20:30about
20:30Kim
20:31Jong
20:31Un
20:31he
20:31was
20:31new
20:32he
20:32was
20:33young
20:33no
20:34one
20:34knew
20:34anything
20:35and
20:35when
20:35I
20:35went
20:35on
20:36the
20:36web
20:36to
20:37just
20:37to
20:37find
20:37out
20:38a
20:38little
20:38bit
20:38about
20:38him
20:39the
20:39only
20:39person
20:40I
20:40could
20:40find
20:40who
20:40had
20:41actually
20:41met
20:41him
20:42and
20:42actually
20:43become
20:43friends
20:44with
20:44him
20:44was
20:45a
20:45retired
20:46American
20:46basketball
20:47player
20:48by the
20:48name
20:48of
20:48Dennis
20:49Rodman
20:49you
20:50know
20:51somewhat
20:51eccentric
20:52but he
20:52was
20:52a
20:53member
20:53of the
20:54championship
20:54Chicago
20:55Bulls
20:55in
20:561990s
20:57and
20:57it
20:57turned
20:58out
20:58that
20:58Kim
20:59was
21:00a
21:00secret
21:00fan
21:00of
21:01the
21:01Chicago
21:01Bulls
21:02and
21:02so
21:03when
21:03Rodman
21:03had
21:04done
21:04an
21:04exhibition
21:05basketball
21:05game
21:06in Seoul
21:06in
21:07Pyongyang
21:08they'd
21:09become
21:10friends
21:10and
21:11they'd
21:11gone
21:11out
21:12drinking
21:12and
21:12whatever
21:13so
21:13then
21:14I
21:14had
21:14to
21:14track
21:14down
21:15Dennis
21:15Rodman
21:15which
21:16wasn't
21:16easy
21:16you
21:17know
21:17who
21:18do
21:18you
21:18know
21:18who
21:18knows
21:19who
21:19knows
21:19who
21:19knows
21:20who
21:20is
21:20a
21:20coach
21:20of
21:21the
21:21Bulls
21:22or
21:23coach
21:23of
21:23the
21:23Lakers
21:24or
21:24you
21:24know
21:24try
21:25to
21:25figure
21:25out
21:25I
21:26finally
21:26found
21:26someone
21:27who
21:27was
21:28willing
21:28to
21:28introduce
21:28me
21:29to
21:29Dennis
21:29Rodman
21:29and
21:30I
21:30flew
21:30out
21:30to
21:30LA
21:31to
21:31meet
21:31with
21:31him
21:32but
21:33when
21:34I
21:34got
21:34to
21:34the
21:34house
21:34he
21:35wasn't
21:35there
21:35he
21:35was
21:36out
21:36drinking
21:36and
21:37having
21:37a
21:37party
21:38and
21:38whatever
21:39and
21:39then
21:40the
21:40host
21:41said
21:41well
21:41you
21:41can
21:41wait
21:42here
21:42in
21:42the
21:42house
21:42and
21:43spend
21:43the
21:43night
21:43overnight
21:44and
21:44maybe
21:44he'll
21:44come
21:44back
21:44in
21:45the
21:45middle
21:45of
21:45the
21:45night
21:45and
21:45you
21:45can
21:45catch
21:46him
21:46and
21:47so
21:47I
21:47cancelled
21:49all my
21:49plans
21:50spent
21:50the
21:50night
21:50there
21:51anyway
21:52the
21:52next
21:52morning
21:53I
21:53get
21:53up
21:54and
21:54the
21:55housekeeper
21:55says
21:56sometimes
21:56he
21:57sleeps
21:57in
21:57for
21:57a
21:58day
21:58or
21:58two
21:58and
21:59she
22:00woke
22:01him
22:01up
22:01and
22:01she
22:03woke
22:04him
22:04up
22:04and
22:04he
22:04came
22:04out
22:05about
22:05an
22:05hour
22:05later
22:05and
22:06he
22:06said
22:06he
22:12well
22:19he
22:20sat
22:20down
22:20and
22:21he
22:21proceeded
22:21to
22:21tell
22:22me
22:22about
22:22how
22:22he
22:22had
22:23met
22:23Kim
22:23how
22:24he
22:24held
22:24his
22:25baby
22:25and
22:26he
22:26told
22:26me
22:26some
22:26very
22:27important
22:27things
22:27he
22:27told
22:28me
22:28you
22:28know
22:28I
22:29actually
22:29believe
22:29that
22:30Kim
22:30wants
22:30peace
22:30he
22:31doesn't
22:31want
22:31war
22:31so
22:32that's
22:32interesting
22:33and
22:33what
22:35makes
22:35you
22:35think
22:35that
22:35he
22:35said
22:35well
22:36you
22:36know
22:36one
22:36day
22:36Kim
22:37told
22:37me
22:38that
22:38his
22:39dream
22:39one
22:40day
22:40was
22:41to
22:41walk
22:42down
22:425th
22:43Avenue
22:43New
22:43York
22:44with
22:45Dennis
22:46Rodman
22:46go
22:47to
22:47Madison
22:47Square
22:48Garden
22:48and
22:49watch
22:50the
22:50New
22:50York
22:50Knicks
22:51play
22:51the
22:51Chicago
22:51Bulls
22:52and
22:53I
22:53thought
22:53ah
22:54that
22:54gives
22:55me
22:55a
22:55little
22:55bit
22:55of
22:55insight
22:56into
22:56the
22:57dream
22:57that
22:57he
22:58has
22:58a
22:58dream
22:58of
22:59maybe
22:59engaging
23:00with
23:00the
23:00West
23:01there's
23:01a
23:01kind
23:01of
23:01love
23:01hate
23:02relationship
23:02with
23:03the
23:03West
23:03anyway
23:03long
23:05story
23:05short
23:05my
23:07colleagues
23:07and I
23:08began
23:08to work
23:08on a
23:09plan
23:09and
23:10work
23:11with
23:11the
23:12US
23:12government
23:12work
23:13with
23:13the
23:13Korean
23:14government
23:14work
23:15with
23:15the
23:15North
23:15Korean
23:16government
23:16to try
23:17and figure
23:18out
23:18there would
23:20be a
23:20way
23:20and for
23:20Trump
23:21he loved
23:23that moment
23:24when he
23:25shocked
23:25the world
23:26and Kim
23:26shocked
23:27the world
23:27when they
23:27met
23:28together
23:28in
23:28Singapore
23:28everyone
23:29thought
23:29they were
23:30going
23:30to war
23:30and they
23:30met
23:30together
23:31and then
23:31they
23:32started
23:32talking
23:32about
23:33that
23:33they
23:33were
23:33in
23:33love
23:33with
23:33each
23:34other
23:34love
23:34letters
23:35and so
23:36back
23:36and forth
23:37so
23:37it
23:37just
23:38was
23:38kind
23:39of
23:41of
23:41how
23:41you
23:42take
23:42seemingly
23:43impossible
23:44situation
23:45you know
23:46you go
23:46to the
23:46balcony
23:47you write
23:47the victory
23:48speeches
23:48and you
23:49try to
23:49build
23:49that bridge
23:50which might
23:50seem unlikely
23:51but it
23:52is possible
23:53now
23:53did they
23:54get rid
23:54of nuclear
23:55weapons
23:55in North
23:56Korea
23:56no
23:56but what
23:57they did
23:58was they
23:58changed
23:59the
23:59atmosphere
24:00the
24:00psychological
24:01emotional
24:01atmosphere
24:02so that
24:03the risk
24:03of nuclear
24:04war
24:04in experts
24:05opinion
24:05went down
24:06from as
24:06high as
24:0650%
24:07to perhaps
24:081%
24:09what it
24:10is today
24:10so
24:11that's
24:12what you're
24:13trying to
24:13do
24:13is really
24:14try to
24:15think
24:15creatively
24:16try to
24:17go beyond
24:19what seems
24:20to be
24:20possible
24:21in a
24:21particular
24:22situation
24:22and figure
24:24out a
24:24way
24:24that
24:25both
24:26sides
24:26can
24:27deliver
24:27those
24:27victory
24:27speeches
24:28and
24:29Bill
24:31you said
24:31something
24:32very important
24:33in the book
24:33that you
24:34need this
24:34third
24:35side
24:36or a
24:37third
24:37eye
24:37in this
24:38negotiation
24:39and you
24:40were the
24:40third
24:40side
24:41in this
24:41part
24:41you know
24:42because the
24:42two
24:42countries
24:43were
24:43going
24:44toward
24:45a
24:45conflict
24:45and you
24:47played this
24:47role
24:48of the
24:49third
24:49side
24:49and this
24:51to me
24:53sounds very
24:53very important
24:54because
24:55in a way
24:56all this
24:57creative
24:57mind
24:58to try
24:59to find
25:00the tone
25:01of the
25:02victory
25:02speech
25:02if you
25:03bring this
25:04to a
25:04government
25:04you'll be
25:05bombarded
25:06by people
25:07in the
25:07government
25:07says
25:07well
25:08that
25:08doesn't
25:08work
25:09that's
25:09futile
25:10that's
25:10childish
25:11they
25:12would
25:12try
25:12to
25:13undermine
25:13all your
25:14creative
25:15effort
25:15to find
25:16a path
25:16so
25:17do you
25:18think
25:18this is
25:18the
25:19most
25:19important
25:20role
25:21of the
25:21third
25:21side
25:22in order
25:23to come
25:23to the
25:23conflict
25:24think
25:25creativity
25:26think
25:27in a
25:27creative
25:28way
25:28in order
25:29to find
25:30the better
25:31solution
25:31that this
25:32minimum
25:33common
25:33denominator
25:34appears
25:35I do
25:37think
25:38so
25:38I think
25:38it's
25:38you know
25:40the third
25:40side
25:40can be
25:41a mediator
25:42which we
25:43think of
25:44but it
25:44doesn't
25:44actually have
25:45to be
25:45a mediator
25:45it's often
25:46can be
25:46two
25:47players
25:49from both
25:49sides
25:50who can
25:50work
25:50together
25:51and constitute
25:52a third
25:52side
25:52you know
25:52for example
25:53in my
25:53in the
25:55in the
25:56conflict
25:57that I
25:58helped
25:58with
25:59with your
25:59with Abilio
26:00with Abilio
26:01Denise
26:01you know
26:02I was
26:03working for
26:04Abilio
26:05but I
26:06constructed
26:07a relationship
26:08with someone
26:08who was
26:10the mentor
26:10of Abilio's
26:12former business
26:13partner
26:14David
26:16it was
26:16David de Rothschild
26:17the French
26:18banker
26:19and together
26:20he and I
26:21were able to
26:21construct a
26:22third side
26:23that allowed
26:24for
26:24to build
26:25a golden
26:26bridge
26:26that resolved
26:27that titanic
26:28business conflict
26:29between Abilio
26:30and Jean-Charles
26:31Naui
26:31so
26:32yes
26:33I do believe
26:34that it's
26:34very useful
26:35to
26:36in these
26:37really difficult
26:37situations
26:38to look
26:39for
26:39where's
26:40the third
26:40side
26:41the third
26:41side
26:41are people
26:42who can
26:42stay on
26:43the balcony
26:43and can
26:45have the
26:45creativity
26:46and the
26:46intelligence
26:46but also
26:47the inside
26:48knowledge
26:48to be able
26:49to build
26:49those golden
26:50bridges
26:51and the
26:52other
26:52example
26:53was
26:53Camp David
26:54I think
26:54Camp David
26:55is a
26:55great
26:55example
26:56because
26:57in this
26:58age
26:58of
26:59polarized
26:59politics
27:00then we
27:01think
27:01it's
27:01impossible
27:02to find
27:02medium
27:03ground
27:04between
27:05parties
27:06that's
27:06exactly
27:07what
27:07happened
27:07in that
27:08historical
27:09encounter
27:10where
27:11Menahem
27:12from Israel
27:13and Anwar Sadat
27:15from Egypt
27:15for the first
27:16time
27:16bitter enemies
27:18became
27:19actually
27:20not friends
27:21but
27:21they have
27:22a
27:22former
27:23relationship
27:24that was
27:25fantastic
27:26for the
27:26Middle East
27:27could you
27:28tell us
27:28a little bit
27:29the scenario
27:30the scene
27:31setting
27:31for the
27:32Camp David
27:33to provoke
27:34such a
27:35historical
27:35agreement
27:36as it
27:37was
27:37Camp David
27:37in the
27:381979
27:39yes
27:41so
27:42if you
27:43recall
27:43in the
27:44in the
27:4570s
27:46there were
27:47four wars
27:48between
27:48Egypt
27:48and Israel
27:49they were
27:49the two
27:50most powerful
27:50military
27:51adversaries
27:52in the
27:52Middle East
27:52and everyone
27:53as today
27:54thinks the
27:55Middle East
27:55is the
27:55hardest
27:56most impossible
27:57conflict
27:58so
27:58there was
27:59that feeling
28:00back then
28:00too
28:00and then
28:02Jimmy
28:05Carter
28:05had tried
28:06to
28:07try and
28:07mediate
28:08but it
28:08didn't
28:09seem like
28:09it was
28:09working
28:10and as
28:10a last
28:11ditch
28:11effort
28:12at the
28:13suggestion
28:13of his
28:14wife
28:14Rosalind
28:15actually
28:15he decided
28:17to see
28:18invite them
28:19to a
28:19beautiful
28:19place
28:20out in
28:20nature
28:21which was
28:21Camp David
28:21which is
28:22a
28:22presidential
28:23retreat
28:23outside
28:23of
28:24Washington
28:24and
28:26see if
28:27what they
28:27could do
28:28and
28:29you know
28:30and
28:30Menachem
28:31Begin
28:31and
28:32Anwar
28:32Sadat
28:33there
28:33wasn't
28:33good
28:33chemistry
28:34between
28:34them
28:34in fact
28:35there was
28:35kind of
28:36like
28:36fire
28:37between
28:37them
28:37and so
28:38from the
28:39very first
28:40day
28:40after the
28:40first
28:41meetings
28:41they
28:41decided
28:41to
28:42keep
28:42them
28:42separate
28:42in
28:43separate
28:43cabins
28:44and
28:45then the
28:45question
28:46was
28:46how do
28:46you
28:46build
28:47the
28:47golden
28:47bridge
28:47here
28:48and
28:50Egypt
28:51came
28:52with
28:53its
28:53position
28:54which
28:54was
28:55they
28:55wanted
28:56the
28:56entire
28:56Sinai
28:57which
28:57had been
28:57occupied
28:58by
28:58Israel
28:59in
29:00the
29:00war
29:00in
29:00the
29:0167
29:01war
29:01was
29:01occupied
29:02they
29:02wanted
29:03the
29:03entire
29:03Sinai
29:04peninsula
29:05back
29:05that
29:05was
29:05their
29:05position
29:06Israel's
29:07position
29:08was also
29:08clear
29:09but
29:09Begin
29:10wanted
29:10to keep
29:11a good
29:11slice
29:12of the
29:12Sinai
29:13as a
29:13buffer
29:13a security
29:15buffer
29:15and
29:18it
29:19seemed
29:19like
29:19okay
29:20are we
29:20going to
29:20draw a
29:21line
29:21in the
29:21sand
29:22in the
29:22desert
29:23there
29:23and
29:24there
29:24was no
29:25way
29:25both sides
29:26were so
29:26stuck
29:27in their
29:28positions
29:28and their
29:29peoples
29:30and so
29:30there was
29:31no way
29:31that was
29:31going to
29:32work
29:32and so
29:33after
29:33three
29:34days
29:34the
29:36Carter
29:36and the
29:37American
29:38Secretary
29:38of State
29:38Cy
29:39Vance
29:39turned
29:40to
29:40another
29:40idea
29:41which
29:41was
29:42an
29:42idea
29:42actually
29:43that
29:43my
29:44colleague
29:45Roger
29:45Fisher
29:45and I
29:46had
29:47sent
29:47in a
29:48draft
29:48memo
29:49to
29:50Cy
29:50Vance
29:50just
29:51before
29:51the
29:52Camp
29:52David
29:52summit
29:53and
29:53it
29:54was
29:54a
29:54very
29:54simple
29:54kind
29:55of
29:55creative
29:56idea
29:56of
29:56a
29:57process
29:57for
29:58how
29:58to
29:58break
29:58a
29:59deadlock
29:59how
29:59do
29:59you
29:59build
30:00a
30:00bridge
30:00and
30:01we
30:01call
30:01the
30:01single
30:02negotiating
30:03text
30:03procedure
30:03so
30:04we
30:04call
30:04it
30:04the
30:04one
30:05text
30:05it's
30:06a
30:06very
30:06simple
30:06process
30:07which
30:07is
30:07instead
30:09of
30:09starting
30:09from
30:10the
30:10positions
30:10you
30:13start
30:13from
30:13the
30:13interests
30:14right
30:14you
30:15look
30:15at
30:15what
30:16does
30:16each
30:16side
30:16really
30:17want
30:17and
30:18then
30:18you
30:18create
30:19a
30:19draft
30:20piece
30:20of
30:20paper
30:21a
30:21document
30:21in
30:22which
30:23you
30:23have
30:23an
30:24idea
30:25for
30:25how
30:25to
30:25build
30:26the
30:26bridge
30:26but
30:27it's
30:27not
30:27a
30:28position
30:28it's
30:29a
30:29very
30:30unofficial
30:30document
30:31which
30:32then
30:32in
30:33an
30:34iterative
30:34process
30:35you
30:35keep
30:35on
30:35getting
30:36criticism
30:36on
30:37until
30:37it
30:39becomes
30:39a
30:39document
30:39that
30:40actually
30:40didn't
30:41work
30:41for
30:41both
30:41sides
30:42and
30:42this
30:42is
30:42the
30:42way
30:42it
30:42worked
30:43in
30:43Camp
30:43David
30:43was
30:44the
30:45Americans
30:45went
30:46to
30:46the
30:47Israelis
30:47and
30:47said
30:48okay
30:48we
30:48understand
30:48your
30:49position
30:49we're
30:49not
30:49asking
30:50you
30:50to
30:50change
30:53security
30:56Egyptian
30:57tanks
30:57have
30:58attacked
30:59us
30:59four
31:00times
31:00in the
31:00previous
31:0130
31:01years
31:01we
31:01don't
31:01want
31:02that
31:02happening
31:02again
31:02the
31:04Americans
31:04then
31:04went
31:04to
31:04the
31:04Egyptians
31:05asked
31:05the
31:05same
31:05question
31:06we
31:06understand
31:07your
31:07position
31:07you
31:08want
31:09the
31:09entire
31:09Sinai
31:09back
31:10why
31:10why
31:11do
31:12you
31:12want
31:12it
31:12what's
31:12the
31:13interest
31:13there
31:14sovereignty
31:14the
31:15land
31:15has
31:15been
31:16ours
31:16since
31:16the
31:16time
31:16of
31:16the
31:17pharaohs
31:17we
31:18want
31:18it
31:18back
31:19so
31:20then
31:20the
31:20Americans
31:20asked
31:21this
31:22magic
31:23you
31:24may
31:24not
31:24be
31:24able
31:25to
31:25reconcile
31:25the
31:25positions
31:26but
31:27how
31:28do
31:28we
31:28satisfy
31:29the
31:29Israeli
31:30interest
31:30in
31:31security
31:31and
31:32at
31:32the
31:32same
31:32time
31:32the
31:33Egyptian
31:33interest
31:33in
31:34sovereignty
31:34and
31:36there
31:36was
31:36an
31:36idea
31:37floating
31:37around
31:38that
31:40was
31:40a
31:40kind
31:40of
31:40an
31:40interesting
31:41idea
31:41which
31:41was
31:42a
31:43creative
31:43idea
31:43a
31:44bridge
31:44a
31:44golden
31:44bridge
31:45which
31:45was
31:45a
31:46demilitarized
31:47Sinai
31:47a
31:48Sinai
31:48where
31:48the
31:49entire
31:49Sinai
31:50would
31:51go to
31:51Egypt
31:52the
31:52Egyptian
31:52flag
31:53could
31:53fly
31:53everywhere
31:54but
31:55it
31:55was
31:55demilitarized
31:56no
31:57Egyptian
31:57tanks
31:57no
31:58Egyptian
31:58troops
31:58so
31:59Israel
32:00got
32:00its
32:00security
32:01so
32:02Israel
32:03would
32:03actually
32:03get
32:03more
32:04security
32:04with
32:05the
32:05demilitarized
32:05Sinai
32:06because
32:06it's
32:07the
32:07entire
32:07Sinai
32:08it's
32:08not
32:08just
32:08a
32:08slice
32:09and
32:09Egypt
32:10would
32:10get
32:10more
32:10sovereignty
32:11because
32:11they
32:11would
32:11get
32:11the
32:12whole
32:12thing
32:12back
32:12so
32:13this
32:14is
32:14what
32:14you
32:14look
32:14for
32:15it's
32:15those
32:15kind
32:15of
32:15creative
32:15ideas
32:16now
32:16it's
32:17one
32:17thing
32:23all
32:23the
32:23skeptics
32:24and
32:24so
32:24on
32:24so
32:25the
32:25Americans
32:25drafted
32:26up
32:26a piece
32:26of
32:26paper
32:26and
32:27they
32:27went
32:27to
32:27the
32:27Israelis
32:27and
32:28the
32:28Egyptians
32:28and
32:28said
32:28here's
32:29an
32:29idea
32:30don't
32:31consider
32:31this
32:32a
32:32formal
32:32American
32:33proposal
32:33it's
32:33not
32:34just
32:34a
32:34wild
32:34idea
32:35we
32:35don't
32:36want
32:36you
32:36to
32:36accept
32:37it
32:37we
32:37don't
32:37want
32:37you
32:37to
32:38say
32:38yes
32:38or
32:38no
32:38all
32:39we
32:39want
32:40you
32:40to
32:40do
32:40is
32:40criticize
32:41it
32:42well
32:43no
32:44one
32:44likes
32:45to
32:45say
32:45yes
32:45to
32:46a
32:46tough
32:46decision
32:46no
32:47leader
32:47but
32:48everybody
32:49loves
32:50to
32:50criticize
32:51so
32:51the
32:52Egyptians
32:52criticized
32:53it
32:53Israelis
32:54criticized
32:54it
32:54the
32:54Americans
32:55said
32:55fine
32:55fine
32:56fine
32:56and
32:57then
32:57they
32:57went
32:57back
32:57and
32:57said
32:58how
32:58do
32:58we
32:58make
32:58this
32:59idea
33:00better
33:00what
33:01changes
33:01can
33:02we
33:02make
33:02to
33:02address
33:02the
33:03Egyptian
33:03concerns
33:04to
33:04address
33:04the
33:04Israeli
33:05concerns
33:05and
33:06they
33:06went
33:06to
33:06draft
33:07number
33:07two
33:07then
33:08they
33:08went
33:08back
33:09and
33:09said
33:09no
33:11decision
33:11just
33:12more
33:12criticism
33:15three
33:15in
33:1610
33:16days
33:17they
33:17went
33:17through
33:1823
33:19drafts
33:2023
33:21drafts
33:22each
33:22time
33:23to
33:23the
33:23point
33:23where
33:24they
33:24could
33:24make
33:24it
33:24no
33:24better
33:25that
33:25one
33:25text
33:26and
33:26then
33:27at
33:27that
33:27point
33:28Carter
33:28took
33:29it
33:29to
33:29Begin
33:29and
33:30to
33:30Sadat
33:31and
33:31said
33:32look
33:32this
33:32is
33:32the
33:32best
33:32we
33:33can
33:33do
33:33do
33:34you
33:34want
33:34it
33:34or
33:34not
33:34and
33:35then
33:35President
33:37Sadat
33:38and
33:38Prime
33:39Minister
33:39Begin
33:39were
33:39faced
33:40with
33:40a
33:40very
33:40different
33:41decision
33:41than
33:41having
33:42to
33:42make
33:42a
33:42very
33:42painful
33:43concession
33:44no
33:44one
33:44wants
33:45to
33:45make
33:45concessions
33:46no
33:46one
33:46wants
33:47to
33:47be
33:47the
33:47first
33:47to
33:47make
33:48concessions
33:48no
33:49one
33:49wants
33:49to
33:49appear
33:49weak
33:50but
33:50this
33:50time
33:51instead
33:52of
33:52having
33:52to
33:53make
33:53a
33:53number
33:53of
33:54painful
33:54concessions
33:54all
33:55they
33:55have
33:55to
33:55do
33:55make
33:55one
33:56decision
33:56do
33:57we
33:57want
33:57it
33:57or
33:57not
33:58only
33:59when
33:59they
33:59can
33:59see
34:00exactly
34:00what
34:01they're
34:01going
34:01to
34:01get
34:01in
34:01return
34:02for
34:02it
34:02Sadat
34:12peace
34:12with
34:13Egypt
34:13and
34:14on
34:14those
34:14conditions
34:15both
34:16leaders
34:16agreed
34:17that
34:18was
34:18the
34:18camp
34:18David
34:18agreement
34:19that
34:20was
34:20the
34:20Israeli
34:21Egyptian
34:21peace
34:22treaty
34:22which
34:22has
34:22endured
34:23to
34:23this
34:23day
34:24more
34:25than
34:26more
34:27than
34:2745
34:28years
34:29later
34:29through
34:30wars
34:31through
34:31assassinations
34:32through
34:32all the
34:33changes
34:33that
34:34treaty
34:34is
34:34endured
34:35and
34:35it
34:35was
34:36an
34:36example
34:36for
34:37me
34:37of
34:38where
34:39creativity
34:41collaboration
34:41having
34:43a
34:43balcony
34:44place
34:44like
34:45Camp
34:45David
34:45you
34:47were
34:47able
34:47to
34:48take
34:48a
34:48seemingly
34:48impossible
34:49war
34:50situation
34:51and
34:51transform
34:52it
34:52into
34:53a
34:53peace
34:53now
34:54is
34:55the
34:55conflict
34:55over
34:56between
34:56Egypt
34:56and
34:56Israel
34:57no
34:57it
34:58still
34:58goes
34:58on
34:59but
34:59it's
34:59changed
35:00from
35:00a
35:00destructive
35:00form
35:01of
35:01war
35:01to
35:02a
35:02more
35:02constructive
35:03form
35:03and
35:04that
35:04to
35:04me
35:05is
35:05what
35:05we
35:06need
35:06to
35:06do
35:06now
35:06in
35:06the
35:07Middle
35:07East
35:07we
35:07need
35:08to
35:08do
35:08it
35:08now
35:08in
35:08Ukraine
35:09we
35:10need
35:10to
35:10do
35:10now
35:10between
35:11United
35:12States
35:12and
35:13Europe
35:13wherever
35:14you
35:14look
35:14we
35:14need
35:14that
35:15same
35:15kind
35:16of
35:16possibleist
35:18kind
35:18of
35:18thinking
35:19to
35:20be able
35:20to
35:21transform
35:21conflicts
35:22not
35:22end
35:23them
35:23we
35:23may
35:23not
35:23end
35:24the
35:24conflict
35:24but
35:25we
35:25can
35:25transform
35:26the
35:26way
35:26we
35:26deal
35:26with
35:26them
35:27and
35:28exactly
35:28that
35:28would
35:29be
35:29my
35:29next
35:29question
35:30for
35:30you
35:30how
35:31can
35:31we
35:31do
35:31that
35:32in
35:32this
35:32age
35:33of
35:33conflict
35:34so
35:34many
35:34conflicts
35:35as
35:35you've
35:36stated
35:36because
35:37if
35:38we
35:38get
35:38another
35:38parallel
35:39in
35:39history
35:40where
35:41destructive
35:41conflict
35:42end up
35:42in
35:43war
35:43it
35:44was
35:44exactly
35:44the
35:451930s
35:46you
35:46know
35:46we
35:46start
35:47to
35:47escalate
35:47into
35:48a
35:48destructive
35:48spiral
35:49and
35:50we
35:50end
35:50up
35:50in
35:50war
35:51and
35:52of
35:52course
35:52that's
35:52not
35:53what
35:53we
35:53want
35:53we
35:54want
35:54in
35:55way
35:55to
35:55keep
35:56those
35:57dear
35:58values
35:59that
35:59kept
35:59the
36:00world
36:00prospering
36:01growing
36:01and
36:01have
36:02relative
36:02peace
36:02among
36:03major
36:03great
36:04powers
36:04since
36:05the
36:05end
36:05of
36:05the
36:06second
36:06world
36:06war
36:07so
36:07how
36:08can
36:08we
36:08preserve
36:08this
36:09thing
36:09that's
36:09very
36:10important
36:10for
36:10every
36:11country
36:11for
36:12poor
36:12countries
36:13that
36:13became
36:13rich
36:14for
36:14rich
36:14countries
36:15that
36:15had
36:15stability
36:16and
36:16of
36:16course
36:17for
36:17a
36:17superpower
36:17as
36:18the
36:18US
36:18that
36:18became
36:18the
36:19most
36:19powerful
36:19country
36:19in
36:20the
36:20world
36:20we
36:21want
36:21to
36:21keep
36:22this
36:22but
36:22we
36:23have
36:23populism
36:24in a
36:24way
36:24that's
36:25destroying
36:26this
36:26so
36:27how
36:27can
36:28we
36:28create
36:28this
36:29golden
36:30bridge
36:30of
36:31understanding
36:31well
36:34that's
36:35the
36:35million
36:36dollar
36:36question
36:37Felipe
36:37I
36:39would
36:39say
36:40you know
36:40in the
36:4245
36:42years
36:43I've
36:43been
36:43working
36:44you know
36:45ever since
36:45Camp David
36:46on
36:48world
36:49conflicts
36:49and
36:50domestic
36:50conflicts
36:51and
36:51polarize
36:52societies
36:52intensely
36:53polarize
36:54whether
36:54it's
36:54the
36:55United
36:55States
36:55or
36:56Venezuela
36:56or
36:57Colombia
36:57people
37:00sometimes
37:01ask me
37:01well so
37:01after all
37:02these years
37:03are you
37:03an optimist
37:04or a
37:05pessimist
37:05and I
37:06say
37:07well actually
37:07I'm a
37:08possibleist
37:09in other
37:11words
37:11I
37:12believe
37:13in human
37:14potential
37:14human
37:15possibility
37:15because
37:16I've seen
37:17it happen
37:17with my
37:18own eyes
37:18I was
37:19you know
37:20worked in
37:20the cold
37:20war
37:21between
37:21the United
37:21States
37:22and the
37:22Soviet
37:22Union
37:22when people
37:23said
37:23it's
37:23absolutely
37:24impossible
37:24that the
37:25Berlin Wall
37:25will fall
37:26that the
37:26Iron Curtain
37:27will fall
37:28and it
37:28happened
37:29I was in
37:30South Africa
37:30when people
37:31said
37:31it was
37:32absolutely
37:32impossible
37:33that a
37:34race
37:34conflict
37:34between
37:35the whites
37:35and the
37:36blacks
37:36would
37:36end in
37:37nothing but
37:38bloodshed
37:39and it
37:39happened
37:40it
37:40transformed
37:41I was
37:42in
37:42Ireland
37:43and watched
37:44as the
37:44Catholics
37:45and Protestants
37:46oh this
37:46is religious
37:47this is
37:47this has gone
37:48on for
37:49hundreds of
37:49years
37:49this is in
37:50our blood
37:50this is
37:51never going
37:52to change
37:52and that
37:53changed too
37:54and in
37:55Colombia
37:55where people
37:56said 50
37:56years of
37:57war it's
37:57never going
37:58to come
37:58to an
37:58end
37:59so I
38:01think as
38:02difficult as
38:02the situation
38:03is today
38:04I don't think
38:06it's more
38:06difficult than
38:07the Cold War
38:07was between
38:08the United
38:09States and
38:09the Soviet
38:09Union
38:10some of us
38:11will remember
38:12that
38:12I don't think
38:13it's more
38:13difficult than
38:14a sectarian
38:15strife
38:15religious
38:16strife
38:16between
38:17Catholics
38:17and Protestants
38:18or racial
38:19strife
38:19between
38:20blacks
38:20and whites
38:21and so
38:21on
38:21so I
38:23think what
38:23it takes
38:24is
38:25it takes
38:27the ability
38:29to actually
38:30fulfill
38:31the potential
38:32that exists
38:33in every
38:33human being
38:34every human
38:35being
38:36has the
38:36ability
38:37to go
38:38to the
38:38balcony
38:38to pause
38:39to bite
38:40their tongue
38:41before they
38:41talk
38:42to go
38:42to the
38:43balcony
38:43to look
38:43at your
38:44interests
38:44to listen
38:45to the
38:46other side
38:46we all
38:47have the
38:47ability
38:47to listen
38:48and to
38:49listen
38:49we all
38:50have empathy
38:51you know
38:51the ability
38:52to try
38:53and understand
38:54even if we
38:55radically
38:56disagree
38:56with the
38:57other side
38:57how it
38:59might be
38:59to be
38:59in their
39:00shoes
39:00everyone
39:01is
39:01naturally
39:02has
39:03natural
39:03creativity
39:04it's a
39:04human
39:04thing
39:05to be
39:05able
39:05to look
39:06and say
39:06okay
39:06we might
39:07not be
39:08able to
39:08agree
39:08on our
39:09positions
39:09but
39:09if we
39:10understand
39:10our
39:10interests
39:11maybe
39:11there is
39:12a
39:12demilitarized
39:13sinai
39:14out there
39:14and everyone
39:16has the
39:16ability
39:17to be
39:17a third
39:17side
39:18or to
39:18ask
39:19for others
39:19to be
39:19a third
39:20side
39:20and if
39:21you have
39:21those three
39:22components
39:22the balcony
39:23allows you
39:24to get
39:25to yes
39:26with yourself
39:27the bridge
39:28allows you
39:28to get
39:29to yes
39:29with others
39:30and the
39:31third side
39:31allows you
39:32to get
39:32to yes
39:33with the
39:33whole
39:33if you
39:34put those
39:34three
39:35together
39:35then I
39:36think
39:37there's a
39:38practice
39:38that we
39:39all have
39:40inside of
39:40us
39:41as a
39:41potential
39:42that
39:43can
39:43allow
39:43us
39:43to
39:44it's
39:44like
39:44waves
39:45in the
39:46sea
39:46like
39:46there
39:47in Brazil
39:48the waves
39:48of the
39:49sea
39:49allows us
39:50to surf
39:50those waves
39:51we might
39:51not be able
39:52to stop
39:52the waves
39:53but we
39:53can surf
39:54them and
39:54stay on
39:54the surf
39:55board
39:55Bill
39:56I think
39:57perhaps a
39:58crucial thing
39:59to surf
39:59the wave
40:00is to
40:01mobilize
40:02civil society
40:03I think
40:04civil society
40:05for a long
40:06time
40:06had a
40:07more
40:08passive
40:08role
40:09in politics
40:10and I
40:11think we
40:11should have
40:11a more
40:12active role
40:13in communities
40:14because I
40:15think communities
40:15can play
40:16a key role
40:17in order to
40:18find
40:19these common
40:20interests
40:20and try
40:22to create
40:22the golden
40:23bridge
40:23of dialogue
40:24and understanding
40:25so
40:26how
40:27can we
40:28engage
40:29civil society
40:30that's
40:31almost their
40:31duty
40:32to do this
40:33to save
40:33what's important
40:34for them
40:35it's important
40:36for them
40:36to have peace
40:37it's important
40:38for them
40:38to have
40:39prosperity
40:39it's important
40:41for them
40:41to have
40:42a social
40:43peace
40:43so
40:44how can
40:45we stimulate
40:46civil society
40:47to get
40:47more engaged
40:49with such
40:49a crucial
40:50question
40:51as politics
40:52I could
40:55not agree
40:55more
40:55Felipe
40:56it is
40:56civil society
40:58can play
40:59the role
41:00of the
41:00third side
41:00civil society
41:03this third
41:04side is the
41:04side of the
41:05whole
41:05so remember
41:06what about
41:07our children
41:07what kind
41:08of society
41:09are they
41:09going to
41:09inherit
41:10you know
41:11that thinks
41:13about the
41:13whole community
41:14not just
41:14as democrats
41:15and republicans
41:16but americans
41:17what's an
41:18all-american
41:18approach
41:19or an
41:19all-brazilian
41:20approach
41:20or an
41:21all-european
41:21approach
41:22or an
41:22all-human
41:23approach
41:23we need
41:24that kind
41:25of thinking
41:25and if
41:25if you
41:26think about
41:27it
41:27when I
41:27think about
41:28the shift
41:29the end
41:30of the
41:30cold war
41:31it didn't
41:32just come
41:32about through
41:33negotiations
41:34of the top
41:34leadership
41:35civil society
41:36I was part
41:37of it
41:37and I
41:38watched as
41:38everyday
41:41americans
41:41and everyday
41:42russians
41:42civil society
41:43leaders
41:43business
41:44leaders
41:44religious
41:45leaders
41:46civil
41:46leaders
41:47cultural
41:47leaders
41:48you know
41:48I was
41:49over in
41:49Moscow
41:49with
41:50John
41:50Denver
41:51you know
41:51just as
41:51an example
41:52just those
41:53kinds of
41:53things
41:54building
41:54those
41:54relationships
41:55really
41:57helped
41:58transform
41:59the
42:00relationship
42:00I saw
42:01the same
42:01thing
42:01happen
42:02in
42:02South
42:02Africa
42:02it
42:03wasn't
42:03just
42:04Nelson
42:04Mandela
42:05and
42:05Frederick
42:05de
42:06Klerk
42:06it
42:07was
42:07the
42:07business
42:07community
42:08it
42:09was
42:09the
42:09religious
42:09groups
42:10it
42:10was
42:11the
42:11women's
42:11groups
42:11it
42:11was
42:12the
42:12civil
42:12society
42:12groups
42:13that
42:13formed
42:14actually
42:14something
42:14called
42:15the
42:15national
42:15peace
42:15accord
42:16which
42:17civil
42:18society
42:19engaged
42:19and said
42:20enough
42:20is
42:20enough
42:21we need
42:21to
42:21change
42:21this
42:22same
42:22thing
42:22happened
42:23in
42:23Northern
42:23Ireland
42:23in
42:24Northern
42:24Ireland
42:24in
42:24fact
42:25you know
42:26it
42:26was
42:26interesting
42:26the
42:27way
42:27it
42:27worked
42:28was
42:28it
42:29was
42:30so
42:30stuck
42:31that
42:32the
42:32only
42:32people
42:33who
42:34could
42:34actually
42:34even
42:35begin
42:35to
42:35build
42:35a
42:35bridge
42:36weren't
42:37the
42:37politicians
42:37they
42:38were
42:38the
42:38last
42:38it
42:39was
42:39the
42:40mothers
42:40the
42:41mothers
42:42of
42:43victims
42:43whose
42:44sons
42:45whose
42:46brothers
42:46had
42:47died
42:48in
42:48the
42:49in
42:49the
42:49terrorism
42:50attacks
42:50and all
42:51the
42:51attacks
42:51back and
42:52forth
42:52in
42:52the
42:52troubles
42:53in
42:53Ireland
42:53they
42:54said
42:55enough
42:55is
42:55enough
42:55we're
42:56going
42:56to
42:56get
42:56together
42:57then
42:58that
42:58gave
42:58permission
42:59and
43:00inspired
43:00the
43:01religious
43:01leaders
43:01on both
43:02sides
43:02the
43:03ministers
43:03and said
43:04wait a
43:04minute
43:04is this
43:05the
43:05Christian
43:05thing
43:06to do
43:06to be
43:06killing
43:06each
43:07other
43:07like
43:07this
43:07is that
43:08somehow
43:09is that
43:09what
43:09Jesus
43:10said
43:10no
43:11and so
43:12then
43:12they
43:13inspired
43:14the
43:14business
43:14people
43:15to say
43:15hey
43:15this
43:16is
43:16terrible
43:16for
43:17business
43:17you know
43:18we need
43:19to
43:19we need
43:19jobs
43:21and jobs
43:21are
43:22fling
43:22we need
43:22foreign
43:22investment
43:23that's
43:23not going
43:23to happen
43:24with this
43:24kind
43:24of
43:24war
43:25and
43:25then
43:26finally
43:26the
43:26politicians
43:27so
43:28it
43:28went
43:28from
43:29very
43:29simple
43:29people
43:30to
43:31religious
43:31people
43:32to
43:32business
43:32leaders
43:33to
43:33political
43:33leaders
43:34and so
43:34that's
43:35why
43:35I
43:35think
43:35civil
43:36society
43:36is
43:37the
43:37key
43:37here
43:38to
43:39transforming
43:40these
43:40conflicts
43:40it's
43:41really
43:42it
43:42starts
43:42with
43:42us
43:43and
43:43it
43:43doesn't
43:43take
43:43that
43:44many
43:44people
43:44to
43:45just
43:45begin
43:46as
43:47I've
43:47seen
43:48in all
43:48of
43:48these
43:48situations
43:49so
43:49civil
43:50society
43:50can
43:51act
43:51as
43:52the
43:52third
43:53side
43:53as
43:53the
43:54container
43:54as
43:55the
43:55community
43:56within
43:57which
43:58even
43:58the
43:58most
43:58difficult
43:59political
43:59conflict
44:00can
44:00gradually
44:00be
44:00transformed
44:01you bring
44:03a point
44:03that's
44:04crucial
44:04that
44:05it's
44:05with
44:06small
44:06action
44:06of
44:07civil
44:07society
44:08that
44:08we
44:08start
44:08to
44:09create
44:10this
44:10network
44:11this
44:12web
44:12that
44:13will
44:13at
44:14one
44:14point
44:14influence
44:15politics
44:16you know
44:16people
44:16usually
44:17come
44:18often
44:18to us
44:18to ask
44:19but
44:19what
44:19can
44:19I
44:19do
44:20in
44:20my
44:20daily
44:20life
44:21and
44:21when
44:21you
44:21give
44:21them
44:22a
44:22small
44:22task
44:22they
44:23think
44:23it's
44:24irrelevant
44:24no
44:24but
44:25they
44:25have
44:25to
44:25understand
44:25that's
44:26very
44:26very
44:26relevant
44:27to
44:28change
44:28this
44:29cultural
44:30aspect
44:30that's
44:31impeding
44:32understanding
44:33and
44:33consensus
44:34every
44:36every
44:36every
44:36one of
44:37us
44:37has
44:37that
44:37power
44:37because
44:38in
44:38every
44:38family
44:39I
44:39can
44:40say
44:40sir
44:40here
44:40and
44:40I'm
44:41pretty
44:41sure
44:41it's
44:41true
44:41in
44:41Brazil
44:42you have
44:42people
44:43with
44:43different
44:43political
44:44opinions
44:44and so
44:45on
44:45sit
44:46down
44:46with
44:46someone
44:47who
44:47disagrees
44:48with
44:48you
44:48and
44:50instead
44:50of just
44:51telling
44:51them
44:51what
44:52you
44:52think
44:52and
44:53what
44:53you
44:53think
44:53they
44:53should
44:54think
44:54listen
44:55to
44:56them
44:56and say
44:56tell
44:57me
44:57more
44:57I'm
44:58curious
44:58bring
44:59you know
45:00the great
45:00power of
45:01curiosity
45:04is with
45:06curiosity
45:06and just
45:08listen
45:09oh that's
45:10curious
45:10that's
45:10interesting
45:10so that's
45:11why you're
45:11now I
45:13begin to
45:13understand
45:13and once
45:15you've
45:15listened to
45:15them
45:16guess what
45:16they might
45:18be more
45:18willing to
45:19listen to
45:19you
45:20and then
45:21you start
45:22to shift
45:22the relationship
45:23and so
45:24it's not
45:25about
45:25you don't
45:26have to
45:26persuade
45:26them to
45:27change
45:27their mind
45:28it's very
45:29hard to
45:29change
45:29a human
45:30mind
45:30that's
45:30not
45:30your
45:30job
45:31your job
45:32is to
45:32understand
45:32their mind
45:33and let
45:33them change
45:34their own
45:35mind
45:35and the
45:36way that
45:37people change
45:37their own
45:38mind
45:38is when
45:39they understand
45:40you and
45:41they see
45:41that you
45:41treat them
45:42with respect
45:43then they
45:43say well
45:44maybe I
45:45won't be
45:45so quick
45:46to judge
45:46the other
45:47side
45:47that's how
45:48things change
45:49and so
45:49every one
45:49of us
45:50has that
45:50power
45:50because
45:51every one
45:52of us
45:52has
45:52immediately
45:53around us
45:53and our
45:54families
45:54and our
45:54close
45:55friends
45:55people who
45:56take a
45:56very different
45:57political
45:57opinion than
45:58we do
45:58and I
45:59think
46:00you
46:00touch a
46:01point
46:02very very
46:02important
46:03which is
46:03you have
46:04to have
46:05an inclusive
46:05mentality
46:06you have
46:07to try
46:07to
46:08understand
46:09the other
46:09side
46:10and not
46:11just talk
46:11with your
46:12own tribe
46:12with your
46:13own people
46:14because
46:14then dialogue
46:15becomes destructive
46:16you're not
46:18engaged
46:18into a
46:19constructive
46:19dialogue
46:20so this
46:21is a point
46:22that you
46:22always
46:23mention
46:24in your
46:24book
46:25the major
46:26point
46:27of a
46:27destructive
46:28thing
46:28is the
46:29exclusion
46:30now
46:30we
46:31don't
46:31want to
46:31talk
46:32to you
46:32we
46:33don't
46:33listen
46:33to
46:33you
46:34and
46:34this
46:35creates
46:36a reaction
46:37very quite
46:37negative
46:38of
46:39disengagement
46:40so
46:40how
46:41what
46:42techniques
46:43can we
46:44implement
46:44in our
46:45daily lives
46:45to be
46:46more
46:47inclusive
46:47because
46:48it's
46:49interesting
46:49in a
46:49polarized
46:50world
46:50to be
46:51inclusive
46:51you can
46:52be perceived
46:53by your
46:54stakeholder
46:54as a
46:55so-called
46:56traitor
46:57why are
46:58you talking
46:59to them
46:59so
47:00you're
47:01a fan
47:02of the
47:02other
47:02team
47:03you're
47:04not
47:04with
47:04us
47:04so
47:05how
47:06can
47:06we
47:07exercise
47:07this
47:08inclusive
47:09mode
47:09without
47:11losing
47:11the
47:12support
47:12and
47:13the
47:13respect
47:13of
47:14our
47:14stakeholders
47:15well
47:18that's
47:18a really
47:19good
47:19question
47:19and it
47:20happens
47:20and I
47:20and the
47:21thing
47:21is that
47:22the wound
47:22at the
47:23core
47:23of almost
47:23every
47:24conflict
47:24I've
47:25ever
47:25been
47:25involved
47:25in
47:26there's
47:26the wound
47:26of
47:26exclusion
47:27you know
47:28like
47:28take
47:28the
47:28Middle
47:28East
47:29right
47:29now
47:29the
47:29Israelis
47:29and
47:29Palestinians
47:30the
47:32Palestinians
47:33feel
47:33deeply
47:34excluded
47:34and
47:35the
47:35Israelis
47:36feel
47:36deeply
47:36excluded
47:37you know
47:38it was
47:38the same
47:38thing
47:38so
47:39it's
47:39like
47:39and
47:41the
47:42simple
47:43act
47:43of
47:43inclusion
47:44you know
47:44going
47:44back
47:45to
47:45you
47:46mentioned
47:46Anwar
47:46Sadat
47:47he
47:48had
47:49the
47:49boldness
47:50at a
47:51time
47:52when
47:52no one
47:52would
47:52even
47:53no Arab
47:54leader
47:55would even
47:55mention
47:55the name
47:56Israel
47:56I mean
47:57total
47:57exclusion
47:58he said
48:00you know
48:00what
48:00I'm
48:02willing
48:02to go
48:02and fly
48:03all the
48:03way to
48:03Jerusalem
48:04and speak
48:05in the
48:05parliament
48:06of my
48:06enemies
48:06and tell
48:08them what
48:08I think
48:09and when
48:09he went
48:10there
48:10he didn't
48:10say
48:11anything
48:12different
48:13than he'd
48:13already said
48:14in Cairo
48:14he was
48:15just as
48:15strong
48:16but by
48:18acknowledging
48:19the other
48:19overnight
48:21it changed
48:22the atmosphere
48:22and led
48:23created the
48:23atmosphere
48:24in which
48:24a camp
48:24David
48:25was
48:25possible
48:25so that
48:26simple
48:27bold
48:27act
48:28of
48:29flying
48:30to
48:30Jerusalem
48:31so I
48:32often like
48:32to ask
48:33what would
48:33be the
48:34equivalent
48:34in any
48:35conflict
48:36of flying
48:36to Jerusalem
48:37in other
48:37words
48:38it might
48:39be
48:39you know
48:40between a
48:40husband and
48:41a wife
48:41you know
48:41bring me
48:42a flower
48:42you know
48:43some
48:44surprising
48:45act
48:45could be
48:46a very
48:46small
48:47act
48:47but just
48:48to
48:48begin
48:49to
48:49include
48:50because
48:51every
48:52human
48:53being
48:53wants
48:55to
48:55belong
48:55it's
48:56a
48:56basic
48:57human
48:57need
48:58every
48:59human
48:59being
48:59wants
49:00to
49:00be
49:00respected
49:00they
49:01want
49:01to
49:01have
49:01their
49:01dignity
49:02respected
49:02the
49:03cheapest
49:04concession
49:05you can
49:05make
49:05in a
49:05negotiation
49:06it costs
49:08you
49:09nothing
49:09but means
49:09everything
49:10to the
49:10other
49:10side
49:11is to
49:11show
49:12them
49:12a little
49:12respect
49:13it costs
49:14you
49:14nothing
49:15you know
49:15I've
49:16talked to
49:16like
49:16professional
49:17like
49:17hostage
49:18negotiators
49:19what's
49:20their
49:20secret
49:21they
49:22treat
49:22the
49:22hostage
49:23taker
49:23with a
49:24little
49:24bit
49:24of
49:24respect
49:24to
49:25why
49:25to
49:26try
49:26to
49:26persuade
49:26them
49:27to
49:27release
49:27the
49:27hostage
49:28that's
49:28why
49:29but
49:29it's
49:29like
49:29just
49:30human
49:31respect
49:31is
49:32the
49:33key
49:33now
49:34of
49:35course
49:35you
49:36have to
49:36be
49:37careful
49:37about
49:37how
49:37you
49:37do
49:38it
49:38because
49:38it
49:38might
49:39be
49:39perceived
49:39by
49:40your
49:40constituents
49:40as you
49:41said
49:41as being
49:41a
49:42quote
49:42traitor
49:42so
49:43the
49:43first
49:44thing
49:44you
49:44need
49:44to
49:44do
49:44is
49:48make
49:49sure
49:49that
49:49you
49:50have
49:50them
49:50on
49:51board
49:51that
49:52you
49:52know
49:52and
49:52you
49:53can
49:53explain
49:53to
49:53them
49:54you're
49:54going
49:54to
49:54talk
49:57with
49:57the
49:57other
49:57side
49:57why
49:58to
49:59figure
49:59out
50:00to
50:00try
50:00and
50:01understand
50:01the
50:01phenomenon
50:02because
50:02it's
50:02like
50:03even
50:03in
50:04warfare
50:05even
50:05if
50:06you're
50:06trying
50:06to
50:07kill
50:07the
50:07other
50:07side
50:08you
50:08know
50:09the
50:09first
50:09rule
50:10of
50:10strategy
50:11and
50:11warfare
50:11is
50:11know
50:12your
50:12enemy
50:12right
50:12know
50:13them
50:13right
50:14you
50:15know
50:15you
50:16it's
50:16like
50:17so
50:17even
50:18if
50:18it's
50:18like
50:19just
50:19collecting
50:20intelligence
50:20you know
50:22which
50:22you could
50:22explain
50:22to
50:23them
50:23of
50:23course
50:24you
50:24want
50:24to
50:24know
50:24them
50:25but
50:25so
50:25it's
50:26like
50:26it
50:26just
50:26makes
50:27sense
50:27I
50:27mean
50:27you
50:29know
50:29in
50:29negotiation
50:30you're
50:31often
50:31trying
50:32to
50:32change
50:33the
50:33other
50:33side's
50:34mind
50:34right
50:36you're
50:36trying
50:36to
50:36we'd
50:37like
50:37their
50:37other
50:37mind
50:38to
50:38change
50:38how
50:38can
50:39you
50:39possibly
50:39change
50:40someone's
50:40mind
50:40unless
50:40you
50:41know
50:41where
50:41their
50:41mind
50:41is
50:42and
50:43how
50:47so
50:47it
50:47just
50:48makes
50:48absolute
50:49strategic
50:49sense
50:50it's
50:51not
50:51even
50:51like
50:51you
50:52could
50:52justify
50:53it
50:53morally
50:53of
50:54course
50:54but
50:55you
50:55could
50:55also
50:55just
50:56justify
50:56it
50:56strategically
50:57and
50:57say
50:57this
50:58is
50:58just
50:58important
50:59for
50:59us
50:59to
50:59be
51:00able
51:00to
51:00understand
51:01where
51:02they
51:02are
51:02so
51:02that
51:02we
51:03can
51:03develop
51:04our
51:04message
51:04better
51:05or
51:05explain
51:06it
51:07to
51:07them
51:07so
51:07they
51:07know
51:07what
51:08you're
51:08going
51:08to
51:08do
51:08so
51:08they're
51:08not
51:09surprised
51:09when
51:10they
51:10suddenly
51:10find
51:10out
51:11that
51:17point
51:17today
51:17is
51:18the
51:18relative
51:19deception
51:20of
51:20people
51:20with
51:21democracy
51:21it
51:22seems
51:22that
51:22democracy
51:23is
51:23not
51:23delivering
51:24more
51:24the
51:25fruits
51:25that
51:26used
51:26to
51:26deliver
51:27in
51:27the
51:27past
51:27and
51:29how
51:30can
51:30we
51:31rebuild
51:31trust
51:32in
51:33democracy
51:33should
51:34we
51:35start
51:35with
51:35civil
51:36society
51:36should
51:37be
51:38an
51:38act
51:38of
51:39the
51:39business
51:40should
51:41be
51:41a
51:41position
51:42of
51:42certain
51:43politicians
51:43to
51:44show
51:44that
51:44without
51:45democracy
51:46we're
51:47going
51:47to
51:47go
51:47nowhere
51:48so
51:48how
51:49can
51:49we
51:50revamp
51:51the
51:52trust
51:52in
51:53democracy
51:53at
51:54this
51:54moment
51:54that
51:54democracy
51:55has
51:56such
51:56a
51:56low
51:57reputation
51:58I'm
52:02going
52:02to
52:02come
52:02back
52:02to
52:03a
52:03very
52:03simple
52:04word
52:05here
52:06which
52:07is
52:07listen
52:08which
52:09is
52:10it's
52:10time
52:11for
52:11leaders
52:11and
52:12politicians
52:12to
52:14go
52:14listen
52:15to
52:15their
52:15constituents
52:16because
52:18often
52:18times
52:19they
52:20think
52:21they
52:21know
52:21what
52:21their
52:21constituents
52:22want
52:22they're
52:22just
52:22fighting
52:22whatever
52:23they're
52:24doing
52:24but
52:25humbly
52:27go
52:28and
52:29sit
52:29with
52:30your
52:30constituencies
52:31listen
52:31to
52:32them
52:32what's
52:32on
52:33their
52:33minds
52:33what
52:34are
52:34their
52:34daily
52:34concerns
52:35is
52:36it
52:36the
52:36price
52:36of
52:37eggs
52:37what
52:37is
52:38going
52:38on
52:38because
52:39democracy
52:40is
52:42a
52:43means
52:44of
52:45trying
52:45to
52:46deal
52:46with
52:47the
52:47basic
52:47concerns
52:48of
52:48everyday
52:49people
52:49and
52:50you're
52:51not
52:51going
52:51to
52:51just
52:51learn
52:52it
52:52by
52:52polls
52:53or
52:54from
52:54a
52:54distance
52:55but
52:55really
52:56listening
52:57to
52:57them
52:57it's
52:58that
52:58kind
52:58of
52:58grassroots
52:59listening
53:01in
53:01democracy
53:01that
53:02you'll
53:03learn
53:03what
53:04does
53:04it
53:04take
53:04to
53:05rebuild
53:05people's
53:06faith
53:06in
53:07democracy
53:07which
53:07is
53:08key
53:08which
53:09is
53:09absolutely
53:09key
53:10and
53:10the
53:12other
53:13answer
53:13goes
53:13back
53:14to
53:14what
53:14you
53:14said
53:14before
53:14it's
53:15civil
53:15society
53:15it's
53:16like
53:17democracy
53:18isn't
53:18just
53:19the
53:19institutions
53:20and
53:21the
53:21elections
53:21and
53:21the
53:21votes
53:22it
53:22starts
53:23with
53:23the
53:23links
53:24among
53:24civil
53:24society
53:25so
53:25that
53:25every
53:26one
53:26of
53:26us
53:27at
53:27a
53:27grassroots
53:28level
53:28can
53:29start
53:29to
53:30build
53:31and
53:31rebuild
53:32the
53:32sinews
53:32of
53:33democracy
53:33that
53:34exist
53:34in
53:35everyday
53:36associations
53:36it's
53:37what
53:37you know
53:37when
53:38de Tocqueville
53:38came to
53:39the
53:39United
53:39States
53:39you know
53:40back
53:41in the
53:411830s
53:42that's
53:43what he
53:43noticed
53:43was there
53:44were so
53:44many
53:44civil
53:45associations
53:46that's
53:47what
53:47that's
53:48how
53:48democracy
53:49got
53:49strong
53:50it
53:50came
53:51from
53:51that
53:51foundation
53:52of
53:53those
53:53everyday
53:53connections
53:54among
53:54human
53:55beings
53:55it's
53:56not
53:56just
53:57the
53:57abstract
53:58institutions
53:59that go
54:00into a
54:00constitution
54:01and I
54:02think
54:02one point
54:03that I
54:04would add
54:04is that
54:05if you
54:05want to
54:06really
54:06listen to
54:06people
54:07don't come
54:08with all
54:08your package
54:09of answers
54:10because if you
54:11come with your package
54:11of answers
54:12you're not
54:13listening to
54:13people
54:13you're trying
54:14to
54:15reestablish
54:16your reputation
54:17or your
54:17authority
54:18that you
54:18are in
54:19authority
54:19in that
54:20subject
54:20and I
54:21think
54:22perhaps
54:22this is
54:23a big
54:23change
54:24in our
54:25attitude
54:26once we
54:27really want
54:27to listen
54:28or when
54:29we really
54:29have to
54:29engage
54:30in a
54:30dialogue
54:30with another
54:31person
54:31absolutely
54:35I couldn't
54:35agree more
54:36and that's
54:37and listening
54:37doesn't
54:40mean
54:40you know
54:42oftentimes
54:42when we
54:42listen
54:43we listen
54:43we hear
54:44the words
54:44you know
54:46we listen
54:47to the words
54:47and in our
54:48minds
54:48we're saying
54:49okay how am
54:49I going to
54:49make the best
54:50response
54:50to that
54:51that's
54:53a very
54:53superficial
54:54kind of
54:54listening
54:55the best
54:56kind of
54:56listening
54:57is when
54:57you listen
54:58not just
54:59to the words
55:00but what's
55:00behind the
55:01words
55:01what are
55:02the feelings
55:03what's really
55:04generating that
55:05you're curious
55:06you bring a
55:06spirit of
55:07curiosity
55:07and the
55:08focus
55:09goes from
55:10what's in
55:11your mind
55:11to what's
55:13in their
55:13mind
55:13and what's
55:14in their
55:15heart
55:15and try
55:16to like
55:17put yourself
55:17in their
55:18shoes
55:18imagine
55:18that you
55:19were them
55:20if you
55:21can listen
55:21from that
55:22perspective
55:22you're going
55:23to learn
55:23a lot more
55:24about them
55:25and that's
55:25deep listening
55:26and that's
55:27the key
55:28to listening
55:28is to listen
55:29from the
55:30other side's
55:31perspective
55:31not just
55:32from yours
55:33to listen
55:34not to
55:35refute
55:35what they
55:36said
55:36but to
55:37listen
55:37to understand
55:38where they're
55:39coming from
55:40I think
55:41this is
55:42a wonderful
55:42optimist
55:43note
55:44from a
55:44possibilist
55:45to end
55:46up our
55:46interview
55:47Bill
55:47thank you
55:48very much
55:49it was a
55:50great pleasure
55:50to have this
55:51conversation
55:52with you
55:52and bring
55:54a little bit
55:54of hope
55:55for us
55:55in this
55:55age of
55:56conflict
55:57that we
55:57can really
55:58thrive
55:58if we
55:59engage
55:59in dialogue
56:01in going
56:02to the
56:02balcony
56:02building
56:03our golden
56:04bridges
56:04and engage
56:05the third
56:06side
56:06thank you
56:07very much
56:07oh
56:09Felipe
56:09it's a
56:10huge
56:10pleasure
56:11and I
56:11it's a
56:12huge
56:12pleasure
56:12listening
56:13to you
56:13dialoguing
56:14with you
56:15and I
56:15wish
56:15all your
56:16listeners
56:16so much
56:18success
56:18in
56:19transforming
56:20conflicts
56:21and getting
56:22to yes
56:22thank you
56:24e a gente
56:25fica por aqui
56:26e para você
56:27que gosta
56:27do jeito
56:27jovem pan
56:28de notícias
56:29não deixe
56:29de fazer
56:30a sua
56:30assinatura
56:31no site
56:31jp.com.br
56:34lá você
56:35acompanha
56:35conteúdos
56:36exclusivos
56:36análises
56:37comentários
56:37e tem acesso
56:39ilimitado
56:40ao panflix
56:41o aplicativo
56:42da jovem pan
56:42obrigado pela sua
56:44companhia
56:44e até o próximo
56:45entrevista com
56:47dávila
56:48entrevista com
56:53dávila
56:53a opinião
56:57dos nossos
56:58comentaristas
56:58não reflete
56:59necessariamente
57:00a opinião
57:01do grupo
57:02jovem pan
57:02de comunicação
57:03realização
57:05realização
57:08jovem pan
57:09news
57:09de comunicação
57:12de comunicação
57:13de comunicação
57:14de comunicação