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  • 5/3/2025
A callow prime minister, a global superstar, shadowy international arms dealers, crafty middlemen and nosy journalists were the dramatis personae of a real-life political thriller that played out in Stockholm, Davos, Bern, Geneva and New Dehi nearly four decades ago.
Of all the names crowding India's biggest and most notorious $1.4 billion arms purchase scandal involving the Bofors howitzer guns manufactured by a Swedish armaments giant was one investigative journalist who stood out for her relentless pursuit of the truth behind who received the kickbacks. That journalist, now the well-known veteran of the profession Chitra Subramaniam faced threats to her and her family’s lives, had her car brake slashed, windshield broken and even offered a suitcase full of what remains a mystery.
Chitra, who has lived near Geneva, Switzerland for a long time, has revisited that remarkable story in her book ‘Boforsgate: A Journalist’s Pursuit of Truth’.
Among other questions the book examines whether the late former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi was a beneficiary of the Bofors kickbacks. It is a scandal that may be dated but still retains toe juice for the current generation.

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00:00A callow prime minister, a global superstar, shadow international arms dealers, crafty middlemen and nosy journalists were the dramatist personae of a real-life political thriller that played out in Stockholm, Davos, Bern, Geneva and New Delhi nearly four decades ago.
00:28Of all the names crowding India's biggest and most notorious $1.4 billion arms purchase scandal involving the Bofors Havitsa guns manufactured by a Swedish armaments giant was one investigative journalist who stood out for her relentless pursuit of the truth behind who received the kickbacks.
00:49The journalist, now the well-known veteran of the profession, Chitra Subramanya, faced threats to her and her family's lives, her car brakes slashed, windshield broken and even offered.
01:02A suitcase full of what remains a mystery.
01:05Chitra, who has lived near Geneva, Switzerland for a long time, has revisited that remarkable story in her book, Bofors Gate, A Journalist's Pursuit of Truth.
01:16Among other questions, the book examines whether the late former Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi was a beneficiary of the Bofors kickbacks.
01:25It is a scandal that may be dated, but still retains Jews for the current generation.
01:31Chitra spoke to MCR from Geneva.
01:34Welcome to Mayanshaya Reports. Chitra, it's a great pleasure to have you.
01:38Thank you. Thank you, Mayas. And thank you for inviting me to your show.
01:41Congratulations on your remarkable book on the never-dying Bofors scandals.
01:49It's been an exceptional, I mean, I read parts of it, I haven't read it fully, but like I said, I'm very aware of your work as well as the Bofors as a story.
01:58So congratulations on that.
02:00Thank you. Thank you very much.
02:02I want to start with a broad question.
02:04It's nearly 40 years since the Bofors gun corruption allegations exploded.
02:11There have been eight governments in that period of BP Singh, Chandrasekhar, Narsimar Rao, Deva Gorda, Ike Vajral, Atul Bihari Vajpayee, Manmohan Singh and Darendra Modi Now.
02:23And yet, after all these decades, we are not exactly clear where the money went in the deal of nearly $1.4 billion at that point.
02:35Tell me how you look at this passage of time as someone who was at the core of the investigation.
02:40You know, the thing is, I mean, as you know, I was in India recently with a book, launching it and promoting it.
02:49And one person made a very interesting comment.
02:52She said that the moment you go anywhere near the Gandhi family, the moment, see, why is it that Bofors continues to be what it is, as you just said?
03:01It's just that, you know, there have been much bigger scandals, if you wish, in terms of money.
03:08Here you're looking at $1.4 billion.
03:11But the issue that makes this one stick out is that the corruption washed around the prime minister of India, around the prime minister's office.
03:21It led to his downfall.
03:22So it's left that kind of an impact.
03:25And all these governments that you said, you know, so many governments that followed, I mean, they have their own reasons.
03:32Some obviously because they are, you know, pro-Congress.
03:36The others because they depend on some kind of, you know, coalition politics.
03:42And more recently, as I say in my book, I had Mr. George Fernandes, who was in the opposition, tell me that he had been told by the national security advisor to not, Rajesh Mishra, to not open the box because we need to keep, you know, we need to stay out of Mrs. Sonia Gandhi's way.
04:06Now, I don't know how much of that is true, but this was said to me in much the same way, you know, you had also the lawyer, Mr. Jayesh Malani.
04:17I mean, both of them were the pioneers of saying, you know, Rajesh Gandhi is involved, but then they all became very quiet when both of them were in power and they could have opened the box.
04:28So the fact remains that it's not so much a mystery to me as it is a sense of, you know, and I also want to add one more thing to your question, Mayank.
04:40I mean, as a journalist, it's not my problem to figure out why they haven't opened the box.
04:47You know, my work will be continuing to ask questions, right?
04:52Otherwise, what is the difference between you and me if we try to find a reason as to why somebody, you know, why they are keeping quiet or why they are not doing this?
05:02I mean, that is their problem.
05:04Indeed.
05:04I will continue to ask questions because I believe the box has not been opened.
05:09Yeah.
05:10You know, it is mystifying the sway of the Gandhis, as you mentioned.
05:14Either there is a case where there is absolutely nothing to the story.
05:23Otherwise, why would avowedly anti-Gandhi governments of both the Vajpayee administration, especially the current one, after 10 years of being in power, they haven't raised a finger on this issue.
05:37So either there is nothing to that, but there is so much that they are not willing to open the box as you're talking about.
05:43I believe it's the latter.
05:48I don't believe that there's nothing to it because, I mean, if there were nothing to it, I mean, come to think of it.
05:56I mean, the prime minister lost an election, you know, you destroyed so much, you destroyed, you had a majority, you know, 440 seats.
06:06You could do whatever you wanted, you know, and yet you went out of your way to destroy the parliament, the judiciary, the executive, even the army was not spared.
06:18I mean, you went after human beings, personal, you know, your own friend, I don't understand, processes.
06:24Everything was destroyed just to save the reputation of one man.
06:29So why is it that?
06:31And I believe that this government, you know, when my book came out, of course, they said you must do this and you must do that.
06:37But I no longer will have never believed politicians for the simple reason that I believe that they have another agenda.
06:45My job description is to find out what happened.
06:49You know, their job description is to take care of the country or to find the best guns.
06:53By the way, they were very good guns.
06:55We got very good guns for a very good price.
06:57But the problem was the corruption.
06:59Right.
07:00So even this government, I mean, you've come to power on anti-corruption, this anti-corruption, that.
07:06Then why are you not opening the box?
07:08But then I have thought about this also.
07:11And I said, you know, if I start playing that, go down that road, why have they not opened?
07:16Why have they not opened?
07:17Then it's a waste of my time.
07:19Yes.
07:20Now, but do you as a journalist wonder what it is?
07:23Somebody has seen what is inside.
07:25It's not as if they've been there completely sealed all these decades.
07:30Someone knows what the box contains, right?
07:36My sense is that my sense, more than my sense, I know for a fact that Mr. Stian Lindstrom, who was my chief source in Sweden, the high police officer, he told me that money has gone beyond.
07:51And E-Services, the company that is linked to Mr. Quattroki, they've got more than 7 million.
07:57They've got at least 14 million, if not more.
08:00And the deal is not for 3%.
08:02The deal is for, at the very least, 12%, as the arms dealer told me, or 18%, as Bofors told the government of India at one point, when they had a meeting with all the top officials who came to India.
08:16And then they met all the top bureaucrats, or what, you know, what was called a cover-up session, I call it the tuition session, where they said, don't hear what they say, you know, say this and say that.
08:28So you're basically telling an arms dealer, you know, an arms manufacturing company that cheated you, and in a big way, to say, no, no, don't say this.
08:41Don't say this to the Joint Parliamentary Committee, because they can't keep it, you know, they can't keep it secret.
08:46So what are you doing?
08:48Not only are you smearing the country, you're smearing yourself as well.
08:52And then this, you know, and then this high level, the two top people from Bofors come down, they want to give the names of the recipients to my prime minister.
09:02And then the prime minister says, no, no, I want it in writing.
09:06If you give it to me, oh, really, I won't take it.
09:10So look at the types of cover-ups that's been going on.
09:12But to answer your question, what is in that box, from my perspective, one very important thing in that box that I would like to know, is that who was giving the instructions?
09:24Because somebody obviously was giving instructions.
09:26You know, of course, I need to know how much money was involved.
09:31And I'm not the only one.
09:32I think the whole country wants to know how much money was involved.
09:34But more than that, who was giving the instructions at every step?
09:40Because you see, every time I wrote a story, the story of the doors who were lying changed.
09:49But there was obviously somebody giving instructions.
09:52You know, so who was giving instructions?
09:55Like if I went left, they said go right.
09:57If I went right, they said go on the top.
10:00So my thing is that obviously these documents were sent to India after 10 years of a court battle in Switzerland.
10:07So we need to know the lawyers.
10:09What are the court arguments?
10:10What happened in the courts?
10:12Who are the people in the courts?
10:14What was their reason for stalling for 10 years?
10:17So that would be that by itself would be very interesting to know.
10:23Why is it that beyond the guns?
10:26And don't forget, this is a question of national security here.
10:29Right.
10:30Right.
10:31You know, when you were first given the documents you write in your book that you were almost hoping that they were false.
10:37Yeah.
10:37In a sense, you were invested in the new prime minister, Rajiv Gandhi, who had announced with much fanfare about being Mr. Clean and restoring integrity to the government.
10:49Yeah.
10:50At what point did you realize that you were perhaps wrongly invested in that thought?
10:56At what point did I realize that?
10:58First, you know, I mean, you know, the first when the story came, the prime minister said that he is not involved.
11:09Remember, he said neither me nor my family, which was a very silly thing to say.
11:13I mean, I thought, you know, it was naive and maybe he panicked or, you know, he didn't have enough experience as a prime minister.
11:20But he continued to shoot himself in the foot, you know, one thing after another.
11:26Then, you know, the Hindu jars were identified four days later by this very, very good journalist, Buandishon of Damansniheta.
11:36And then I think by about six months before I started getting the documents, I realized that I realized that my plan, because you see, you could have.
11:50You see, you could have contacted the Swedish government, you know, you could have sent somebody down to Sweden immediately to figure out what was going on.
12:01This was not done.
12:02So you were shooting, you're shooting left, right and center from India.
12:06So before I got the first set of documents, which was in which was in 1987, I started to realize that my prime minister was in trouble.
12:20And that was not easy for me because, you know, I was also young.
12:24I mean, I was ambitious for India, like, you know, I suppose all of us were at that point and he was young.
12:30And he said that, you know, we will, we will become a, we will become a strong nation.
12:36And, you know, I still continue to be very ambitious for my country.
12:40So that, you know, I almost wanted to find that I was wrong.
12:46Yeah, I understand that.
12:48You know, you know, it's sometime in March of 1991.
12:55Yeah.
12:55Just a couple of months before he was assassinated.
12:58Rajiv Gandhi hosted a sort of a high tea in his bungalow for journalists.
13:04I was one of the journalists invited.
13:07Oh, okay.
13:08Yeah.
13:08And I asked him point blank whether he took a bribe in the Bofors deal straight, straight up.
13:16To his credit, I mean, going by the current environment, perhaps I would have been thrown out.
13:22But he looked me in the eye.
13:25Without flinching, he said I did not.
13:27Now, I don't know what to make of it, but he was very, I mean, this is after four years, five years of the things happening.
13:34But till that point, he was clear that he had not.
13:38And I'm, I'm left wondering after these many decades, what exactly happened?
13:44Did somebody take the money on behalf of, say, for the party or what exactly happened?
13:50No one knows.
13:50And it remains a mystery.
13:52Do you think this mystery will be solved?
13:54You know, I don't think he took the money.
13:59I generally don't think he took the money, but he misread everything around it.
14:04And I think he was set up and very badly set up by people around him.
14:10I mean, the person who set him up, you can see, is Arun Nehru, who was the, I mean, of the thing.
14:17And he had been following the, he had been following the negotiations and talking to the Swedes and giving them instructions.
14:24But, you know, when he told you that point blank, that he did not take the money, I think the man was being honest.
14:33Because when I, this time, when I went to India, I had an interview with Veer Sanghvi and, you know, they were friends.
14:41Right, right.
14:42Veer, at one point he had told that, you know, he had told Veer that, that girl in Geneva, you know, printing photocopies, you know, but after Bofors, after he fell, he said Bofors, Veer told me that it was Bofors that got him.
15:05But that still doesn't mean he took the money, but that still doesn't mean he took the money.
15:09Right.
15:09You know, we know, sorry, yeah, we know the documentary evidence, there is documentary evidence to show that money went to Ottavio Quattroki and the greedy man that he was, he touched the money quickly and the money went further.
15:26But there is nothing to show that Rajiv Gandhi himself took the money and Quattroki is a friend of Sonia Gandhi.
15:33Their friend, he's an Italian businessman, he's no more, let him rest in peace.
15:38But Rajiv Gandhi, there's no evidence to say that he took the money.
15:43Right.
15:43You know, interestingly, soon after the allegation started and your story started coming out, Sam Petroda had also asked Rajiv Gandhi straight up.
15:55Because Sam was greatly invested in India at that point, soon after being successful in this country.
16:02And he went on record saying he said exactly the same thing.
16:06He said, Sam, believe me, I did not take any money.
16:09So anyway, that's the history now.
16:11I'm more interested in your process for 10 years from 1987, right until 1997, you were inundated with all kinds of complex documents.
16:21Tell me, as a journalist, what were your challenges keeping track of so many details, so many names, so many intricacies?
16:29There were many, there were several, my uncle, not the least was that I was also a pregnant, I was pregnant, I had my child in the middle of all this, so I was juggling two very important careers, two jobs, that of being a mother.
16:45And that of being a journalist working on something as important as this documents, I just, you know, laid them out all over the house and then, my God, when I think about it, I want to cry.
16:59But soon I realized that there had to be some kind of method in my madness.
17:08Otherwise, this is not going to stop.
17:10I mean, there were threats to my life.
17:12So I had begun to build in a system of protection, you know, journalists, you are a journalist, and you know how we all build in a certain type of system that protects us.
17:25So one of them was physical safety, which my husband and I built in.
17:31And then I also spoke to my source in Sweden and to my source in Switzerland to say, listen, I'm getting these types of threats.
17:39So they were protecting me.
17:42The other issue was just simply going to the shop and buying, you know, groceries, you know, from managing that to understanding what was going on.
17:51Because if you looked at all the documents, one by one, if you look them individually, everything was clean.
17:59You know, you had the contract, you had a payment, you had this, except the payment that said, don't say the name of the, who got.
18:07In fact, that was a giveaway, because in one of the payments in the bank, that was where the whole thing started, where the payment into an account in the Swiss bank said that don't give away, don't give away the, don't write the name of the recipient.
18:24So then the bank, which is the Scandinavian financial bank, which is like our reserve bank or a central bank, the banker, he asked that if these payments are indeed legal, then why are you saying that you should not give out the name of the recipient?
18:43And thereby hangs a long story of what was being unable to answer, you know, why they were paying illegally.
18:50So that was one giveaway to come back to your earlier question as to the giveaways.
18:55But to, you know, to sort of understand the, like a nakshah, like a map.
19:02Right.
19:02So that was one thing, which was a, which my source that I started getting to know later explained to me.
19:11But before that, I met an arms dealer in Geneva, you know, who made me a GPS.
19:18I see.
19:19So he said, you know, this is not 3% Chitra.
19:22This is at least 12% at the very least, if not more, because he said no arms deal of this nature.
19:29I mean, it was 1.4 billion, you know, in 19, 19, sorry, 1980, something early 80s.
19:37He said no deal of this nature is for 3%.
19:39He laughed at me.
19:41I see.
19:41So, yeah, so he had also made me like a, you know, this will go there, that will go here.
19:47So it's a pretty standard operating procedure.
19:50But then how was I going to believe an arms dealer?
19:53Right.
19:54So I had to, in more ways than one, I had to figure out who is setting me up, who is not setting me up.
20:02And, you know, I had to also prove myself to myself.
20:07You know, much as I had to prove myself to myself that I was a good mother.
20:12You know, and what does that mean?
20:14You know, I mean, who was a good mother, who was a less good mother.
20:17I had to also prove myself to myself that night.
20:20Journalism students were then of time.
20:24And I had a friend in India, Kumi Kapoor.
20:27Maybe you know Kumi.
20:28I do indeed.
20:29Yeah.
20:29So she was my only source then.
20:33I mean, we didn't have any WhatsApp or, you know, I didn't even get to see the, what I was writing.
20:39That was that.
20:40And later, as I went on, I had to also deal with my editor, Mr. N. Ram, hosting games with my story.
20:48So, you know, the higher I went in the, the higher I went closer to power, there are all kinds of things coming in, like the bureaucrats, like Mr. Guppi Arora, or Mr. S. K. Batnagar, or Mr. Karta, or Mr. N. N. Vora.
21:03You know, everybody had something to take from this story or something to cover up, which is why I wrote this book.
21:12One of the reasons of writing, for writing this book is to put out my version of it.
21:18What really happened?
21:20Absolutely.
21:20Yeah, so the challenge was, challenges were just not one or two, and they were coming from many directions.
21:27And sometimes I didn't, it took me a while.
21:30This is what happened.
21:31It took me a while to understand that they're all coming from.
21:36These are issues that I should give more attention to.
21:40These are issues that can wait.
21:41That's how I dealt with them.
21:45Right.
21:45You know, you're right.
21:46And I quote you now in their arrogance, racism, and misogyny.
21:51Arms dealers, government, politicians thought they could buy me with money.
21:56Yeah.
21:57I was offered a suitcase and go.
21:59But you never found out what the price was.
22:04No.
22:04No, because this person came into my office with this, with this case.
22:10And then, I mean, just the, just the gall of giving it to you like this, you know.
22:16And no, I didn't.
22:17And I remember driving home very fast, scared, because, you know, lots of issues running through your head.
22:27No, I mean, how dare, what does he think?
22:29And, you know, that was the first.
22:32Second, maybe, you know, was there a bomb in there?
22:34You know, you never know, suitcase bomb.
22:36Right.
22:37And just feeling sort of dirty and ashamed, you know, that somebody could, because, you know, for me, my profession, and I'm sure for you as well, it's, it's, it is a sanctity attached to being a journalist.
22:49It's very, it's a noble profession, you know.
22:52And when I put pen to paper, for me, I'm not sounding sanctimonious.
22:57I'm saying that I'm fully aware of my responsibility.
23:02So, when you think you can put a money price on it, I think it's just ghastly.
23:07Yeah, you'd feel like taking a shower after that.
23:10Don't you?
23:11Absolutely.
23:12Absolutely.
23:12You know, in retrospect, Chitra, in retrospect, I emphasize that, it sounds cinematic.
23:20Here is this young journalist, traveling through Stockholm and Davos and Byrd and Geneva, talking to arms dealers, police investigators, politicians, being offered a suitcase, being threatened with, to threaten, there is a threat to her life and her family's life.
23:37It sounds all very cinematic now, but I'm sure at that point, it must have been absolutely harrowing for you.
23:44It was harrowing.
23:45It was harrowing.
23:47And it's even more harrowing now.
23:51But that time, it was, oh my God, you know what I felt?
23:55I came home and I quickly got into bed and I covered myself with a juve.
24:01Because I felt I have to protect myself.
24:04I mean, it came down to that basic thing, you know.
24:07How dare you?
24:09That's amazing.
24:10Yeah.
24:11I'm saying this for the first time.
24:12I don't think I've said it on, I've never said it to anyone.
24:15But I remember coming home, quickly getting into bed.
24:19It must have been 3.34 in the afternoon or maybe even earlier.
24:22I got into the bed and I did this.
24:24I said, my God, you know, how filthy is it?
24:29I mean, you feel like somebody has a expat on you or vomited on you, you know.
24:36Absolutely.
24:37That's really touching and in a way stunning that you felt that and to think that a duvet would help you.
24:45Yes, you know, so that you can't find me behind my juve.
24:48It was so, you know, that's what I did.
24:53Right, right.
24:53I felt terrible.
24:54I felt terrible.
24:55You know, speaking of details, to change gears a bit, there were so many accounts.
25:01Lotus, Tulip, Mobla, then Enetronics.
25:05You had Panama registered Swenska.
25:07You had AE services.
25:09But Swenska was, of course, the much maligned and much reviled Winchanda whom I met in Delhi.
25:16Oh, really?
25:17Yeah, yeah.
25:17At his residence.
25:18And for him, it was like all in a day's work.
25:21He was a low-level arms dealer, but he was quite a hustler, an interesting guy.
25:29And this is funny because we told me he was a low-level arms dealer.
25:37He was a hustler.
25:38He was a hustler.
25:40And he was at the core of it still.
25:43At the core of it.
25:44And he did all the work.
25:47And I remain convinced that he was cut into.
25:51In fact, I believe he did a lot of hard work.
25:56He worked very hard on this.
25:58You know, of all the people interesting, you should mention it.
26:01Perhaps he was the most diligent.
26:03Yes.
26:04Yes.
26:05He was.
26:06And, you know, carrying the files from here to there.
26:09You know, doing this, doing that.
26:11And, you know, there's even a document which we never used.
26:16But he even had to buy pearls for somebody in Sweden.
26:23And I think, I don't know if his wife is called Kamla.
26:27She said Kamla has bought the pearls and the curtains.
26:30I mean, he was doing that kind of stuff as well.
26:33Right.
26:33So, you know, at some point, I felt that this man was made to run around doing all kinds of things.
26:39Yeah.
26:40First, you run the corridors of power.
26:42You had to keep, you know, how these things.
26:46And then you have to go and shop, you know, for pearls.
26:56In fact, the document says that the wind says the pearls are done.
27:00And, you know, you know, somewhere I got into the lives of these people.
27:07I got into my imaginary lives.
27:10I would have liked to meet the man to say, listen, you were doing what you had to do.
27:16You were doing your job description.
27:18You had to get the deal.
27:19But my prime minister's job description was not to get the option.
27:23You know, my prime minister was to get a clean deal.
27:26Indeed.
27:26And in much the same way, Martin Adbo, the chief negotiator from Sweden, his job description was to sell the gun, bring the contract home, which he did.
27:36Right.
27:37The only person who didn't comply with his job description is my prime minister.
27:44Which is saying a lot.
27:46Yeah.
27:46I mean, think about it, Mayank.
27:50Yeah.
27:51You know.
27:52Absolutely.
27:52I agree.
27:53You know, somewhere along the line, you had mentioned that of all these accounts that we just talked about,
28:00AE services had some distinct political dimension.
28:05Absolutely.
28:06Absolutely.
28:07Tell me about it.
28:08Yeah.
28:09So AE services comes into the deal.
28:12Let's say like, you know, you know, these deals take a lot of time to negotiate at least 10 years.
28:19They go back and forth, trials, testing.
28:21I have the whole thing in the book, the timeline.
28:24And Svenska was there from the beginning and electronics.
28:29AE services comes into the deal three months before it's closed, which is in January 1986.
28:36Right.
28:37AE services tells the negotiations, in which case, in this case, Bofors, that I will get you the deal by March 1986 in three months.
28:49And if I don't get you the deal in three months, you don't have to pay me.
28:52Now, who has this kind of power?
28:56And then the deal does get closed in March 1986, just like AE services have predicted.
29:03And AE services, for not doing any work, walks away with 7.7 million.
29:10But I know that more money has gone into them.
29:12Right.
29:12Well, so this is what is called the political payoff.
29:18And I'm told that the political payoff comes on, comes on the table when all the, all the numbers are there.
29:25All the numbers are there.
29:26This is where the political person comes and says, OK, I'm going to take this much.
29:30And nobody can, nobody can question them.
29:33Correct.
29:34So powerful is this person.
29:36And so certainly Otavio Quattrochi is not powerful.
29:40I mean, why would Bofors pay Otavio Quattrochi?
29:43Because Bofors knew about Quattrochi's links in India.
29:47So that is the political payment.
29:50I see.
29:50I see.
29:51You know, you write about a special relationship between Prime Minister Gandhi and the Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme.
30:00It's amazing to point out at this stage that both these men were assassinated for different reasons.
30:07But they were, they both died.
30:09One at the hands of the Tamil Tigers, the other, I think, a lone gunman.
30:14Yeah.
30:14Tell me about that relationship and how that might have played into the deal finally happening.
30:20So the deal was, I mean, you know, when Olof Palme was this socialist prime minister, you know, he was a fake socialist.
30:33I mean, he was trying to look good.
30:35He came from the bourgeoisie.
30:36His wife is a good socialist.
30:38But he was trying to come up and then, you know, he would lecture to the world from the ramparts of the UN saying we should not be buying and selling arms while his country was buying and selling arms to Vietnam and all that.
30:54He was an absolute fake like they are doing now.
30:56You know, they're selling arms to Ukraine and all over the world.
31:01And Rajiv Gandhi was a novice at that time.
31:03He was young in politics.
31:04So I think at some point Palme took him under his wings to show him the ropes internationally, you know, introduce him in conferences.
31:14And the deal, the deal was already struck during the, they had come very close to striking the deal.
31:23There was a six nation, six nation, you know, this, some anti-nuclear conference going on in India.
31:32I'm trying to think this was a conference of the six nation, anti-nuclear countries.
31:37They met in Delhi.
31:39I think there was a conversation in Delhi on the sidelines of which this deal was discussed.
31:45I see.
31:46I see.
31:47And by this time, see that in the run were two guns, the French, the SOSMA gun and Bofors.
31:53And Bofors' biggest, biggest strength was this shoot and scoot capacity, you know, to be able to propel, yeah, which won the Cargill war.
32:04So Palme was very much, very, very much involved in the deal.
32:10And he, there was also a conversation in a plane, which was told to me by Stan Lindstrom, that Rajiv Gandhi had told him that he had accepted $7 million on behalf of his party.
32:27And can, can Sweden accept something like that?
32:32So Palme told him that, no, he can't accept anything for the party, but he could give this money to, he could do something called the Berlangens Foundation, which is a foundation in the, it's an industry foundation in, in Ourobro, in, in, near, near, of Stockholm, where he said the money can go to that.
32:56And Mr. Sian Lindstrom, he went and checked if this money had been paid, because there had been inquiries from India as well.
33:05Right.
33:06And I don't write about this in the book, but I'm telling you that, yeah, that they, these monies had actually been paid.
33:14So they had the, the, the, the, the inquiries from India had not come from a CBI, which would have made it criminal.
33:21They came like a tax inquiry, maybe, you know, like a tax inquiry.
33:27Okay.
33:27So now we know that there are two, seven millions.
33:30One paid to a services in London, which had been locked and unblocked for a few days.
33:36So Quattro could take it out.
33:37And then the other one, which went to Ourobro, which was that there's more in the boxes, right?
33:45Somebody knows if you open the box, you'll find out.
33:49Yeah.
33:49Or somebody has and knows that there's more, but doesn't know what to do.
33:54Right.
33:55I see.
33:55Yeah, that's true.
33:56So now, what is the, I mean, how much is the percentage?
34:02And I think Vin Chadda was cut into.
34:05Looks like that.
34:07You know, some years ago, you mentioned Stan Lindstrom.
34:10Yes.
34:11He was quoted as saying somewhat equivocally about Rajiv Gandhi.
34:15And I'm quoting him.
34:16He says, there was no evidence that he, that is Gandhi, received any bribe, but he watched the massive cover up in India and Sweden and did nothing.
34:25Unquote.
34:25Unquote.
34:26Which is true.
34:27And in the similar context, since we are talking about Lindstrom, whom you knew very well, he talks about how the Bachans, Amitabh Bachan and Ajitabh Bachan were framed basically as by the Indian police, Indian investigators.
34:42So tell me a bit about both, your association with Stan Lindstrom and how he looked at this whole scandal.
34:51So, see, Stan Lindstrom was very pivotal to, very pivotal to the, to my work without, without him giving me the documents, I would have had no story to say.
35:00In fact, his daughter had come to India to release the book.
35:05So I'm in touch with him on a very regular basis.
35:08My association with him goes back to Beaufort's.
35:12We are, we continue to remain friends.
35:14He is in his eighties.
35:15And I mean, according to him, he was just doing his job.
35:20And I asked him recently as to why he said, because something very wrong had been done.
35:25You know, you know, and the reason he decided to speak to me and me only was he felt that with me, he could speak the truth and he felt that I would not let him down.
35:39As in, I would not use the story for anything other than journalistic rules.
35:44Now, coming to Mr. Bachan, his name was planted by the Indian investigators.
35:49And I have thought about this quite a lot.
35:53You know, you just don't, because you see, Mr. Quattro, he had run away.
35:58Right.
35:59He had escaped ever since the day I identified him.
36:03In the Indian Express, he ran away.
36:05Now, how do you run away from India in the airport?
36:07I mean, you can't run away.
36:09But he was allowed.
36:10You have to have help, yeah.
36:11Indeed, he was allowed to flee.
36:14So I feel, I mean, not feel, I'm 100% certain that, you know, they wanted to,
36:19they wanted to deflect the name from Rajiv Gandhi.
36:23So they said, who can, who can be, who is big enough?
36:27And they planted Amitabh Bachchan's name.
36:29I mean, you know, Mr. Bachchan is so big, I mean, big in terms of stature and big in terms of name.
36:35So I think he was just brought in.
36:38Right.
36:38And I refused to, I refused to implicate him.
36:42And then started this whole, you know, this whole nonsense about, you know, me becoming soft on him.
36:50I mean, I mean, you know, thank God it was him and nobody else.
36:54But, I mean, imagine if I had been linked to an arms dealer.
36:58Right.
36:58There's an interesting parallel between the way you looked at Rajiv Gandhi and the way you looked at Amitabh Bachchan.
37:05You were invested, you were a great admirer of Amitabh Bachchan.
37:09Oh, and I still am.
37:10And you didn't want that to be true.
37:14Absolutely.
37:14I mean, before that, you know, I've read Hariwan Shraibachchan and Madhu Shala and I look at the, look at the lineage and the knowledge and all that.
37:24And of course, the actor, I mean, the last thing you want to talk to somebody like him is about money and corruption and both of them.
37:31Especially when there is nothing.
37:34See, look at the, I'm glad you brought up this parallel.
37:38Here, Rajiv is denying what he has done.
37:43Right.
37:44And Amitabh Bachchan is having to deny what he has not done.
37:48Not done, right.
37:49No.
37:50So how can Mr. Bachchan deny what he has not done?
37:57You put him in that spot.
37:58So it was very difficult for me.
38:03And then, you know, we met quite a few times.
38:06He came home.
38:06He came to your residence, yes?
38:08Yeah, yeah.
38:08Several times.
38:09Yeah.
38:09Several times.
38:10And then.
38:11Tell me about that.
38:12Both of them, both he and Mrs. Bachchan came.
38:16The first time.
38:17Yeah.
38:18Both of them came home and then he looked at my husband and said, oh, you're taller than me.
38:22John Carlo is very tall.
38:23But my God, I mean, they were just so, he was so statuesque and she had a beautiful dress
38:30and a suit and a shawl.
38:32And then, you know, like you can say, you can see Khandani people, you know, and we sat
38:39and then we discussed this and I felt so small.
38:42And I said, I don't have any evidence.
38:45I mean, you know, I mean, how do I tell this to somebody?
38:48I mean, I had to do two things.
38:50One, you know, I mean, here I am thinking of Amitabh Bachchan and he, in my place, asking
39:00me if I have seen something.
39:02I haven't.
39:03I mean, first of all, if I had seen something, I would be true to our profession.
39:07You know, I would not be true to Mr. Bachchan or anybody else.
39:12I would be true to my profession.
39:13Right.
39:14So then I was telling him no.
39:17And then we had another meeting where he also came home and then my mother-in-law asked him
39:23to lay the table, which he very happily did.
39:26And, you know, I'm trying to think like if you were to accuse me, suppose I'm like Amitabh
39:34Bachchan in my stature, suppose you accuse me of doing something I have not done.
39:39How do I disprove it to you?
39:42And you have taken away my credit card sometime, maybe even my passport.
39:48I'm running from pillar to post trying to prove my guilt.
39:53Right.
39:53You know, the man is not guilty.
39:56So, and you've taken away all the agencies are working for you.
40:00Where do you go?
40:02So, you know, sorry, yeah, go ahead.
40:04No, no, it's, it's, I'm sorry to interrupt, but there is an interesting personal angle here.
40:08On January 31st, 1990, the paper Duggins-Neuter published, the Swedish paper published, first
40:16published that.
40:17Yeah.
40:18One of, one of the six accounts belong to the Bachchan.
40:21That's a famous six account.
40:22And interestingly, my colleague in London, Rahul Bedi, as a news agency journalist, which
40:28is a typical practice if a reputed newspaper publishes something, a news agency, which is
40:33India Abroad News Service, picked up that story with complete attribution to the paper.
40:39And soon after that, the Bachchan sued India Abroad and IANX.
40:45And, but they won in London.
40:47Yeah.
40:47But Mr. Raju created an extraordinary precedent by saying that I am a New York American newspaper.
40:55You can't shop libel elsewhere.
40:57And the entire gamut of American media, New York Times, CBS, they all were M.K.
41:03Curie in this case.
41:05And Mr. Raju won.
41:06The point I was making was soon after that, I met Mr. Bachchan to talk about his side of
41:12the story.
41:12And as you were describing, he was quite distraught about what.
41:16He was distraught.
41:17Yeah.
41:17He was distraught.
41:18Absolutely.
41:20Because, I mean, just the viciousness of the campaign against him.
41:25It was vicious.
41:26Right, right.
41:27Yeah.
41:29But just the last few things, Chitra, I know I've taken enough of your time.
41:34I was, I happened on an interview with N. Ram on News Laundry.
41:39Just caught a few snippets from that.
41:42Your apparent tension with him on how he manipulated basically what you did.
41:48Yeah.
41:49He's saying things like, Chitra was a stringer who just supplied us notes.
41:54Yeah.
41:54Basically, I wrote the stories.
41:57Yeah.
41:57And she picked up the bits from that and used it.
42:00These are his claims.
42:02Yeah.
42:03Yeah.
42:03What is your, is there any relationship at all?
42:08Is there any association, friendship left between the two?
42:11No, no, no, that was an old interview, right?
42:13That with News Laundry.
42:15Oh, that's an older interview.
42:16Very old interview.
42:18So after I've written the book, he has not said anything because in the book.
42:21Oh, he hasn't.
42:22Okay.
42:22No, I have quoted chapter and verse where he was wrong.
42:26That was an old interview where he, it's fact, I sent him detailed notes.
42:32There was no question.
42:33I sent him detailed notes because he didn't have any sources.
42:36They were my sources and then some of the stories in the beginning, as they appeared, he wrote
42:42them because they have very different writing styles.
42:44And then I wrote, I picked up those stories and then he says, I just took them up.
42:52I wrote them without accrediting, but they were my stories, you know, so how can he take credit
42:58for my work?
42:59But subsequently in this book, I have written, I have addressed all those issues.
43:03So he has not reacted to any of this.
43:06And in fact, in this book, I have gone on to say how he sat on documents, AE services,
43:11how he threatened the prime minister without publishing stuff.
43:15I have gone very, very in detail into all that he has done.
43:20You know, this interview does mention those things.
43:23I think this is a newer interview that we are talking about.
43:25I just saw it this morning.
43:27Okay.
43:27And he does mention why he held on to that AE services story in terms of impact, et cetera.
43:35Then he talks about how as a journalist, he had to be absolutely certain of so many details.
43:42So I think it was in the old interview also.
43:45Oh, I see.
43:46Then I stand corrected.
43:48How he is an old fashioned journalist.
43:50You're right.
43:52You're right.
43:53You're right.
43:53That's an old interview.
43:54Yeah.
43:55Now to conclude, tell me how the book has, obviously it's got a hell of a lot of attention.
44:01I, I was tracking you and I'm so glad that a fellow journalist is going to make some money
44:07on, by the honest work of writing.
44:11So how, how is it doing?
44:14The book is doing very well.
44:15The book is doing very well.
44:17It's been on bestsellers lists.
44:20You know, obviously I was on this interview with Lallantop, you know, with Saurabh.
44:25I saw that.
44:25Saurabh was saying that, did I have any, did I think that my work would bring down a government?
44:32No.
44:33On the same note, did I think that my book would do so well?
44:37No.
44:38I mean, obviously when you write a book, you want it to do well, but book being sold out,
44:43especially after so many years?
44:44No, but I'm happy.
44:46I'm happy.
44:46It's interesting you should mention because even when Bofors was exploding, not a lot
44:52of people understood the complexity of what was going on.
44:55The thing that nearly 40 years hence, it has revived interest in it.
45:00Yeah.
45:01It's quite, quite remarkable.
45:02Yeah.
45:04I wouldn't be very, if I had the money, I would make you an option offer to make it into
45:10a movie.
45:11It's really, it's really cinematic in many ways.
45:15I hope you, I hope you get it.
45:17Aapke mohmeh hi shakkar.
45:20Thodi si shakkar dee de naam ka.
45:23No, this is, once again, many congratulations.
45:27It's a hell of a lot of hard work that you've put in.
45:30And I'm very glad that you're getting the attention that you so eminently deserve.
45:36Thank you so much for taking the time to interview and it's very kind of you.

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