Logan Mohtashami on why he believes housing is healthier this year

HousingWire

On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Lead Analyst Logan Mohtashami about why he sees a healthier housing market this year despite negative headlines.   Related to this episode:  ⁠Why the housing market is actually much healthier in 2025 | HousingWire⁠   The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate stories. Hos

Transcript

00:00Welcome, everyone. My guest today is lead analyst Logan Motoshami to talk about why even with all

00:11the negative headlines right now, he sees a healthier housing market this year. Logan,

00:16welcome back to the podcast. And let's just get the most important thing out of the way first.

00:22And that is our debate over if you can call mini golf putt-putt. What did you find out from our

00:28listeners, Logan? I'm getting slaughtered on this. So the Daily Count Friday is now 347 people say,

00:34yeah, it's putt-putt, putt-putt, putt-putt, you know. So I'm a West Coast guy. I haven't traveled

00:42much until I started doing the nerd tour. So I've just never heard that term. I've never even heard

00:48anybody say the word putt-putt. I know. This is because when I said it, you looked at me, you're

00:53like, what did you say? And I'm like, oh, you know, putt-putt. And then you acted like I was,

00:57you know, an alien. So I feel very, thank you everyone for verifying that I, at least in this

01:03one thing, am right. Sarah got a rare wind. Good for her. We're going to get her mint chocolate ice

01:10cream for that one. Oh, hey, there you go. I should get some ice cream out of this. Oh my God.

01:16Okay. So we have, we do have some very serious things to talk about. So let's get us up to speed

01:21on the trade war, the Godzilla tariffs, the trade war tap dance. Although I don't know that you would

01:26call it a tap dance at this point. Okay. So it's Friday morning. The 10-year yield has now come down.

01:33I think the last time I saw it was about 426. The stock market is positive, negative, positive,

01:38and things are, things are a little bit more calm now. Obviously when there's anything about a trade

01:45war deals, the market acts better. There is a kind of a unilateral front by Wall Street people to try

01:53to like push this issue via social media, but via their own outlets to try to say, hey, listen,

01:59you're going to keep on doing this. It's going to get, it's going to get crazier and harder and

02:03everything. President Trump's approval ratings have fallen down. His disapproval ratings has risen up.

02:11It's not even a hundred days yet. So I think there's, there's now a realization that doing this on kind

02:17of a naked basis, just going through the streets and thinking we could just bully ball this and it

02:24doesn't matter. That, that obviously hasn't worked. So China talked about, hey, listen, we're going to

02:30give some exemptions to tariffs on certain industries, but we're going to help our companies

02:35out. We're going to provide more money. So now, you know, anything that could get maybe to deals now.

02:42Uh, um, so, uh, South Korea, India, Japan, uh, Vietnam, some of these things, if you start to get

02:50strings of deals, then at least everyone goes, okay, we're not doing the, the Armageddon theory

02:57about how I look at tariffs. If I really thought people believed in tariffs, you simply put them

03:01on and that's it. Say, this is it. We're not dealing with it. We're going to change the entire

03:06U S economy and all that. Okay. Very hard. You can see this. It's very hard. Uh, more talks about

03:12courts, maybe blocking this more talk about Republicans getting, you know, getting, uh,

03:17too many phone calls. So, so today's a little bit of a calm day. Bond yields are lower right

03:23now. Mortgage rates are, are, are falling down just a little bit and we'll, we'll take

03:27it from there. But, uh, a lot of drama definitely for sure. But this week was a fairly calm week

03:34compared to what we've dealt with. Which is pretty crazy. I mean, I think that shows you kind

03:38of the, the market we're in when we go this week was a calm week. I know. I know. Speaking

03:44of which, uh, uh, we just got back from Florida. Uh, I had to go on CNBC two 40 in the morning.

03:51Uh, two of my flights were canceled, but I said, I got to go through it. I got to find a flight.

03:55And I flew through a major thunderstorm, which is the first time in my life. And I was thinking,

04:01Oh, this is how it feels like, you know, in the marketplaces, of course, people are screaming

04:05and the poor guy next to me was sweating and you know, everybody's freaking out. Cause you could

04:09see the lightning out there. Of course, myself, I'm smiling and go, has anybody seen the movie

04:14twilight zone? And like three, three guys, I can hear the laugh there, you know, the flight, but

04:20we see when things get hectic, right? You, when you're flying a plane and it's very calm,

04:26right? You expect that. But all of a sudden you add chaos, thunderstorms, engines, not working,

04:31a monster trying to rip the engines out, looking in the window, chaos happens and things shake and

04:37rattle and people start to freak out. So, um, the goal, I think maybe it's to just to calm things

04:43down. So who knows, but this is Monday morning. We'll see what happens over the weekend. Remember

04:50the Sunday night tweets, you just don't know how it's going to be. So, uh, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll,

04:55we'll take it one day, one week at a time, but clearly there's a realization that you just

05:00can't do this. You just can't just ram this thing in and think that, uh, uh, uh, it'll be

05:05acceptable. I think that the twilight zone analogy is very apt. I think that's probably the, the,

05:11the best analogy for right now. And I, like you said, I think any time, any deals he could announce

05:17will be really helpful. I know yesterday, um, it's, it's Friday on Thursday, he was asked,

05:21you know, how many deals have been done? And he said something like 200 and the reporter was like 200.

05:26He was like, yeah, a hundred percent, 200. It's like, okay, well we haven't announced any yet.

05:30And he's like, well, we will. So any of those that he can do to your point, then people will feel

05:35like, okay, we're getting some normalcy back. Sarah, we just, we don't take people, what they

05:43say seriously until we say deals now. Right. So it's like, it's not monster in twilight zone.

05:48His face is right there. It's monster tariffs, you know? So you look at it and you're like,

05:51oh, William Shatner, let go, look it up, you know, freaking out. And, and hopefully nobody

05:57has a gun on the plane and shoot a window. That's never a good thing. But, uh, um, again,

06:02um, we, we, we try to work through this. It's, it's very chaotic. Uh, this is a, a chaos variable

06:09like COVID, right? But our job as analysts is trying to model things out in a very chaotic period. And,

06:14and, uh, everyone's trying to do their best, but it's, it's one of these things where headlines

06:19really drive everything where COVID was just an absolute titanic drop of economic activity and

06:24the sharpest recovery in history due to a pandemic. So I think in the midst of all this,

06:31what's surprising is how positive you are on the housing market right now. So you wrote that,

06:36you wrote a piece on Friday, the housing market has entered a much healthier stage in 2025. And I

06:42know people are like, what are you talking about? You think this is healthy. So, so make your case.

06:47So in that article, we outlined a lot of data line sets. And for me, as I'm just saying,

06:54I'm being very consistent to what I've said toward the end of 2020, like, uh, guys,

06:59McFly. Hello. This is not a good thing. Inventory just broke to all time lows. Uh, demand just came

07:08right back. Mortgage rates are low. And this is a very bad setup, which is the irony for all those

07:13people that said forbearance crash in 2021 and the biggest crash in sales or prices in 2021 rookie

07:20ball. Stop, stop pretending you're housing people just stop it. Um, but early 2021, we brought the

07:28concept of team higher rates, right? We don't have any credit mechanism that we could pull off. The

07:33only thing we could do is it's an unfortunate reality, but rates had to go up to slow this thing

07:39down because it could escalate. Well, it didn't happen in 2021. So prices escalated, went up 19,

07:4620% nationally, um, off of 10% in 2020. That's 30%. My entire affordability index, I created an

07:55affordability index just for years, 2020 to 2024, because I thought maybe could it possibly be,

08:02this is a bad time for inventory and prices. Maybe it already broke by 2021, right? 4.6% nominal each

08:10year, 23%, basically roughly for a five-year period. If that would have happened, we would have been

08:14okay. Adjusting to inflation. Real home price growth is very, very low. That didn't happen. So,

08:19so 2022 early was even worse. Like inventory broke to like our data lines, uh, uh, for Altos,

08:28240,000 single family homes. We always say hungry, hungry hippo, too many people chasing too few homes,

08:35a hundred hippos, one ball, not a good thing. So what happened in 2022 was a good in terms of trying

08:42to create some balance. Now the, it didn't do as much damage as I was hoping for, but in any case,

08:48it did bring inventory up. However, 2023 terrible. Uh, we had one little move down in mortgage rates from

08:567.37 to 5.99%. And that created a long enough demand curve to slow inventory, basically in 2023,

09:05up until mortgage rates got to 8% and then inventory started growing. However, 2024 and 2025,

09:10if you are team mortgage rate lockdown, inventory can't grow with rates. And here we are. Guess what

09:19happened? Mortgage rates stayed elevated. Inventory is growing healthier price market. Cause you have to

09:23think about the future. You don't think about now. You don't think about the past. You think about the

09:27next one year, three years, five years, 10, a hundred millions of people are going to buy homes

09:32every single year. You have to get the sustainability back. Uh, as we've talked about

09:36with housing data per recession, then what happened is price growth is cooling down positive, right?

09:43My forecast was wrong last year, but still price growth cooled down. Uh, as of right now,

09:48my price forecast nationally still looks a little bit too low. Uh, the existing home sales prices are still

09:53all three months have been elevated above my price forecast. It makes it harder to get that

09:58forecast correct. When the early data is, is doing this. However, still it's slowing, right? Not

10:04slowing as much as I was looking for, but still slowing inventory is growing. So those are two

10:10positive factors that were not the case back in 2020, 2021, early 2022. However, now we're saying,

10:18what do we, what do we say always, uh, it's really rare in America for existing home sales to go below

10:234 million, right? We haven't had total existing home sales go below 4 million. We've had some monthly

10:29prints, but here in 2025 rates are still elevated, right? I haven't seen my 6% to 6.64% rate curve where

10:38demand actually has grown in the past few years. But even with that existing home sales still trending

10:44positive this year, purchase application data, positive year to date and positive year over

10:49year, even with the recent increase in rates where I was expecting a harder drop on the week to week

10:54and even basically going negative year over year has not occurred yet. We still have one more, uh, uh,

10:59a week here with elevated rates. And this is happening as price growth cools and inventory rises. So

11:06what we look at, we want to continue this because eventually at some point rates, let's just go down to

11:106. It's, it's very hard for me to forecast under 5.75 under this, uh, uh, environment, but just going

11:17down to 6 and sales can grow and every single year wages grow every single year households form. This

11:24is how life has progressed for decades and decades and decades. I just don't, I don't think people have

11:29studied housing economics for a very, uh, with a long time scale. So there, they just, what's occurring

11:35right now is actually somewhat kind of normal. And then if, if you're able to get a positive demand

11:42curve with elevated rates, just imagine getting to six builders are still at 2019 home, uh, uh,

11:48sales levels. The new home sales data beat estimates, nothing spectacular there, but their

11:53purchase application data, 14% month to month growth, 5% plus year over year growth. Just imagine

11:59if the entire U S housing market was sub 6%, we're growing, right? So I can't forecast under 5.75

12:07unless certain things happen, but I'm encouraged that we're starting to see a better form bottom

12:13with possible rising sales, right? And more inventory. I would terrible, I would not be having

12:19this conversation today. If home prices were running at like say 6.2% above wage growth, above

12:24inflation. Uh, if, uh, inventory was not growing as much as it did, right? The 2023 data, I would

12:31not be having this conversation today. If, if purchase application data was negative and home

12:36sales were trending below 4 millions, I would not have this conversation, but you have the

12:41framework and it's all here. And this is how data mining works. It's interesting because the existing

12:46home sales report, you see this, uh, the February report was much stronger than anybody anticipated.

12:51There were some variable factors into that. So we, everyone was looking for a decline month to

12:56month. But even for me, I was like, listen, we're going to, we're going to get a decline. We're going

13:00to be a tad above 4 million. That's what it was. But the trend right now, even with elevated rates

13:05positive for the year, but we had a 4.2 million forecast for the year. So we can, we can grow sales

13:12even with elevated rates, but just getting towards six now looks even better. And I think that the

13:20healthier, the healthier backdrop is inventory is growing. Price growth is cooling. Think about

13:25housing next year, five years, 10 years, a hundred years. Uh, you need, you needed this because this

13:30is typically what has happened in, in previous decades. And it looks normal to me where you

13:35can get rising, rising inventory, rising sale. That's the chef kiss. If I can get that Sarah

13:41Wheeler, oh my God, the grin will get even bigger. The Joker and the Chester cat will have

13:46nothing on me. All right. And it's just, it's beautiful to see this because in a sea of noise

13:52and professional grifting and Doomer clans and all that stuff, uh, uh, it is positive that that

13:58equilibrium is coming back to normal. When you did your presentation in, um, Florida at, at the

14:06dark matter event, one of the, uh, people that came up after you, it was like, well, that was more

14:09positive than I thought it was going to be. And I think it, I think it catches people by surprise

14:14because it feels like a lot of things. If, if, you know, if you've seen your 401k get hit, if you're

14:19worried about being laid off, whatever, it can feel like overall the economic news is bad. But I,

14:25what I love about it, Logan, is that you're like, I'm just looking at data. You're not a permit

14:29anything. You're like, all I'm going to do is look at the data and tell you what I think the data says.

14:34If I was a doom porn prostitute, I couldn't do this. Right. If I couldn't, if I, if my whole life is

14:41man, some of these YouTube sites, the Russians, I mean, I I'm telling you the Russians and the

14:47Chinese and Iranians are probably going, we don't have to do doom porn against America. They got

14:51these crazy people out here and guess who they all are. Sarah Wheeler. They are all the anti-Central

14:56Bank people. One clan since 1913. Same thing. Always. Everything's terrible. In any case,

15:04we set models here again. If for example, let me give you another hypothetical. If home prices

15:12literally were running at 6.7% and inventory was a growth, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't say this. I

15:17would be saying, Hey, this is not good. We need, we need more inventory, less price growth. That's not

15:22happening. Uh, if, if home sales were rising with, um, 6% rates to 6.64, I go, okay, that's, that's

15:30very doable, right? That that's, there's nothing abnormal about that. That's, that's not happening.

15:34We're getting a little bit better demand, right? We're working from the lowest bar ever recorded

15:39in history. No joke. When I, when I say it's the lowest home sales ever, I take and adjust it to

15:43the workforce, uh, households, everything. Um, so you got room to run. It rates a little bit low,

15:50but it is encouraging on that front. I just don't think that message appeals well in doom porn land.

15:57Uh, um, and, uh, thankfully I could just look at the data and just call it. And thankfully we have

16:05the data and thankfully we visually can see this, uh, uh, out here and, uh, we could show this, but

16:11man, we have grown ass people still running around social media, hiding their, hiding their names and

16:18saying X this and that, and they've been wrong for so many years, but they don't care because they have

16:22to generate attention. Economics done. Right. It's terribly boring. It's not supposed to be this

16:28hot, fun, sexy thing, but I try to make it as fun as possible, but in the realm of reality and reality

16:34is not great for engagement, but we believe we can make it more entertaining and educational.

16:40And if you could teach a society how to read, if you could teach society, how to look at charts,

16:45what is the worst thing for any fanatic, crazy doomsday porn person, people reading, right? I would

16:53tell you this. We had a lot of doomers basically give up their home price crash calls in 2025. Um,

17:00I'm gonna say it it's because me calling them out every time for years, right? It's, it's not a

17:06coincidence. It's every single year. Some of these people are off like 62% from the original calls.

17:11If you cannot criticize your analyst for being wrong for so young, that is cult like behavior

17:19Wheeler. That is what cults do. They go, Oh my God, you're so smart. Homie, you've been wrong like

17:25for four years. It doesn't matter. He's so smart. No, he's been wrong for four. Oh, you are part of

17:29the cult. And that's what it is. That's why we challenge American, Chinese, Russian, Iranian men to

17:35live debates. We want forecasts and models. Cause I want to string you all for the next 10 years.

17:39I already got the last 13 on you. We're going to do this. So everyone gets to see your wife,

17:45your kids, your coworkers, your neighbors and everything. Y'all can't hide anymore.

17:50Goodness. So much fun. You love the fight. Okay. So let's talk about where we are in the cycle,

17:56in the seasonal home selling cycle, right? We are coming up this, the last week of April,

18:02the first week of May, when this podcast comes out, where, you know, what, what are you looking

18:07for in the next couple of weeks since we're in that, in that part of the peak?

18:10Okay. So the seasonal peaks are about to happen on the like contracts that we follow, uh, purchase

18:16application data on a normal basis would actually the, uh, we're all like two weeks away from what

18:21I would deem the seasonal peak, uh, like purchase application looks out 30 to 90 days. So usually

18:27the first week of May, that's kind of like the peak period. And after May total volumes usually

18:31always fall. Now there's been some craziness, uh, in the last few years, uh, November and December

18:37has been like a seasonal demand curve in the last few years. So I, I look at that period. Like one

18:43of the things that people were confused about is purchase application data was growing in November,

18:46December with rates rising. But if you're in a seasonal demand curve push, you just have more

18:52people applying for mortgages at that time. So you could even grow. But so far it's, it's not,

18:58it's not bad. If hypothetical, let's just say mortgage rates head towards 6%. What we have

19:03seen in the data, the last two times that's occurred is you have a longer duration of purchase

19:09application data being positive. That's a couple hundred thousand more homes. It's nothing

19:12spectacular, but it's a couple. Now that we've started with a little bit of growth early in the

19:18year, last two years, I've already written the article. Oh, we've already peaked monthly sales

19:23already peaked. That's it. Did it, did it 2020, uh, uh, 2024 did in 2023, very early. I can't say

19:30that now because the Fords are still positive. So we can get a higher print than something that we saw

19:37in, uh, February. Uh, uh, uh, so it's nothing so far, it's not going to be anything spectacular

19:42about that, but you can, you can say that now. So we're toward the end of this. Uh, uh, but you

19:48still track the weekly data as you still track how rates operate, but kind of, I, I, I would have

19:54not taken that bet this year toward the end of April. If you would have said, Hey, your weeklies

19:59are positive, your monthly, uh, contract or your monthly pending sales are pending sales, uh, for

20:06Altos is different than the NAR. So we're a little bit more fresh and we count that. And then purchase

20:12apps would have been positive year over year, even with one reversal of rates, about a half a percent

20:16would not have taken that. So I'm surprised. And we document this and we highlight this.

20:22We try to show this to people, but just think in the back of your head rates moving down to six,

20:28I can't go under 5.75. This is a labor market. We can get down to six with some things.

20:33Then you can get a little bit of growth in sales out here. Uh, again, the builders have shown you,

20:38you can keep sales elevated toward 2019 levels, but there is sub 6% mortgage market. It would be so

20:44easy just to sit here and say, well, if we had sub 6% mortgage markets, home sales growth, that's

20:49the easy out. I just can't get there without certain things happening. That's why we don't

20:53really want to go into that conversation yet until certain things happen. But considering everything

20:59it was, what we, what we were seeing, which wasn't good, what we're seeing now, like Fonzie, baby,

21:06thumbs up. I got to get the leather jacket out, man.

21:10Listen, a Fonzie reference. You are now you're in, you're firmly in my camp there in the,

21:16what do you call me? The elder, uh,

21:17Elderly Gen X. Yeah. I was like, like six or seven watching Fonzie and I was like,

21:23he seems a little bit old for hanging out with high school people, man. But you know, Hey,

21:28he always did. I was like, Hmm. Um, okay. Well that's really good. Do you think that when you look at

21:34that and one of the things that you say about like, Hey, if we get down to 6%, then we can,

21:38you know, we could see some growth because we have seen that, but also because you see

21:43a path to 6%. Like, of course you could say, well, if we got down 3%, we'd all grow. But the reason

21:48you say 6% is very specific. So we do 10 year yield channel forecasting. Been doing that since 2015.

21:56Um, the, the different variable post 2022 is how the spreads are. The spreads have gotten worse,

22:02uh, during, uh, uh, uh, uh, the trade war Godzilla tariffs. However, I think, I think where a lot of

22:09people got 2024 wrong that were in the higher rate camp, they thought the spreads would get worse,

22:14right? They have, they have all their reasons for it. But if you, I, I would say, I encourage people

22:19to go look at the mortgage spreads data back to 1970, but I know nobody's going to do it. Every time

22:23I ask people, has anybody heard about the spreads? I get like three or four hands. I'm like, man,

22:27this is like really important in your business and nobody knows about it. So my fault, I didn't

22:31do a good job of talking about this obviously in the past few years, but now it's, we talk about

22:36seven and a seven and a quarter rates, 5.75, right? The range 10 year yield forecast for 70 to 380.

22:42You get the 10 year yield slowly moving down with the spreads, how they were improving this year on

22:47your basis. You get down towards 6%. That happened in 2022 to 2023, except the 10 year yield got to the

22:54Gandalf line. You said, no, you're not passing this. We had 5.99% rates for like one day.

23:00Last year, we saw rates get down to near 6%. Labor data, economic fears takes us down there two for

23:06two, right? In early 2023 or in 2024, mortgage rates never got down towards 6%. It got from 8.03 to 6.63.

23:19So we didn't have that data line to run. It did create positive purchase application data, but nothing,

23:23nothing too big. So there is a model to work off this. Why? Because we've seen this twice now.

23:29All right. So now we have more Fred president saying, well, we're going to cut. We're going to

23:33cut. We're going to get the labor data. Wheeler, I'm telling you, they're all going to fold.

23:38If jobless claim starts rising and they're all going to fold because then the dual mandate,

23:44and it's going to be hard. See, one of the things that's interesting with the Fed now is that they have,

23:49you know, scripture, they have all this stuff saying, well, we do it. We don't really raise

23:53rates during a tariff because that's recessionary. But it's like, even some of the hawkish people,

23:59like we're still looking for rate cuts, right? If you actually read their verbiage, they still have

24:05two rate cuts. Now, outside of the labor market breaking, I could get towards 6% if we have one

24:13more percent of rate cuts, except that was like a 2026 thing, you know, two rate cuts in 2025 to

24:18whatever that is, that was just going to take a while. But labor data, economic data, it's a little

24:25bit more problematic. Oddly enough, we are sitting here, it's Friday morning, 10-year yields, 4.26.

24:29The bond market is positive this year. Inflation expectations are higher and bond market is

24:36positive. And the spreads have gotten worse, but we're still been in that range, right? Seven and a

24:42quarter. I think the low was 6.55. So everything kind of looks right. I just say that without

24:48Godzilla tariffs, the 10-year yield wouldn't have gotten below 4% just because of the market stress.

24:53But we're getting to the point to where the hard data is going to start to get weaker. So we'll see

24:59how this resolves itself. But if you had no trade war, CPI inflation, two handles, PC inflation, two

25:06handles, right? We always focused on the residential construction workers, economic cycle. So that's why if you

25:12wanted to make a case for lower rates to make sure that the economy is spanning, just get it down

25:16there. You don't have to worry about the residential workers losing their jobs before every single

25:20recession. But that's how we model things out. It's not the most exciting thing, but it keeps

25:26everyone in line. That's why we did the tracker. So we keep everyone focused. And data can be fun.

25:33Data can be interesting, right? You don't have to be a nerd like me to love it. But it starts to

25:40explain things a little bit better. I so appreciate that explanation, especially right now. We are

25:45definitely keeping an eye on that labor data. We will see as the freight stuff happens, that might be where

25:52we see job losses, right? More than other places, especially for shipments coming from China, unless

25:58something happens quick. Always remember one and a half to two million people lose their jobs each month.

26:03Is this when the economy contracts, credit gets tighter, that's where you start to get bigger job

26:10losses and you have a recession. So a lot of people did not think he was going to go into

26:17Godzilla tariffs and stay there for a while. That's what's happening. This is why you're getting a lot

26:22of people more concerned about this the longer this goes. It's a little bit more complicated because

26:29there's a trade war than let's say an economic event, let's say higher rates creating recession.

26:33But in this context, we don't know. It's Monday morning when everyone's listening to this, who

26:39knows what happens Friday night, Saturday, Sunday, but it's very headline driven. So hypothetical,

26:46let's just say he calls it off, calls the trade war tap dance, does deals, says we're just going to,

26:51we're taking all the tariffs back to where they were and we're going to do deals.

26:54That would be considered bullish for the US economy. But is that bullish for rates?

27:02That's a different question for another time. We always said that if the economy outperforms,

27:07rates, yields should go higher depending on what Fed policy is. So we'll cross that bridge if it ever

27:13goes there. But until then, one day at a time, putt, putt, putt. Yes, thank you. The thing I

27:20appreciate about you, Logan, is you're definitely, you always like, if you're wrong, if you're proven

27:24wrong, you're like, I'm wrong. So in this, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, you know,

27:28take in this moment, even though it's about... Relish it, Wheeler. It doesn't happen very often,

27:33but you should relish the days that it does. Listen, that's, that's just rude. Okay,

27:38Logan, we will talk again soon. Thank you so much. Pleasure.

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