Bhutto: 'Pakistan can be a bridge between China and the US'

DW (English)

In an interview with DW at the Munich Security Conference, Pakistan's Former Foreign Minister Bilawal Bhutto talked about Islamabad's expectations from US President Donald Trump and the security challenges it is facing.

Transcript

00:00Mr. Victor, thanks for joining us here at the Munich Security Conference.

00:03Thank you. Thank you for having me.

00:05There's a big paradigm shift happening

00:08in the world with the US and China at loggerheads.

00:12Does Pakistan see, feel the need to be in one camp rather than the other?

00:17I think the pace of that, of that competitiveness has very palpable effects

00:23all across the world.

00:24I think you're feeling it here in Munich at the MSC.

00:30And most of the world is engaged

00:34in that competitiveness from a Pakistani perspective.

00:37Historically, we've played the role of a bridge builder rather than, say,

00:42a dividing force, or there are some countries who are profiting or benefiting

00:47from the fact that these two countries, the United States and China,

00:52are increasingly competitive.

00:54But Pakistan has been in a different position.

00:56If you want to put us in a camp,

00:58we would like to see ourselves as bridge builders.

01:01And we've played that role in the past

01:02between establishing diplomatic contacts and the relationship

01:07between the United States and China. And going forward,

01:10we'd like to see ourselves as a country that can bridge that

01:14cap rather than sort of increase that division.

01:17Is that going to be possible,

01:19that role of bridge building with that new Trump administration?

01:22We're all getting our first impressions here with them in action.

01:25What do you think for Pakistan?

01:27The impression we get, or I get,

01:29from the Trump administration or from President Trump is that he's a dealmaker.

01:33And in that context, I think,

01:36given the challenges that we do face in the region,

01:40there are topics and areas in which we can engage with the United States

01:45that fit within that roadmap.

01:49One such domain, which

01:52we talked about on the campaign trail and

01:55as at least articulated as part of the current government's foreign policy,

02:00is the possibility of

02:03making peace with India or at least trading and engaging with India.

02:08I think a deal maker like President Trump,

02:12who's interested in playing a role for peace across the world.

02:18It looks like the Trump administration is closer to India, New Delhi at the moment.

02:22Does it like kind of, is it a problem?

02:27A lot of presumptions about the Indian

02:29American relationship were tested during the Ukraine crisis.

02:33I do think that with the China-US conflict

02:40and with the US's attempts to build up India as a sort of counterweight

02:49to China does upset the balance of power in the region.

02:53It does have knock-on effects, for example,

02:57in the arms race between India and Pakistan.

03:01We are both countries that have immense

03:03challenges as far as poverty and unemployment and there's far better

03:07places for Pakistan to be spending its money and for India to be spending its money.

03:12But if the US is going to

03:14try and establish India as a net security provider in the region,

03:20then Pakistan will do what it must to sustain or maintain that race.

03:26Listening to J.D. Vance, the vice president yesterday,

03:29of course, that left the Europeans shocked here.

03:33His speech, what was your reaction when you heard that, that the West

03:38essentially was fighting on the open stage here in Munich?

03:41It's not a surprise for us because we're

03:43used to the fact that the US looks after US interests first.

03:49And for us, it was very recently that President Trump first unilaterally

03:55tweeted that he's leaving Afghanistan.

03:58And at that time, also, the EU wasn't consulted.

04:02The most non-allied ally outside of NATO

04:06on the border of Afghanistan wasn't consulted.

04:08The Afghan

04:10government of the time was not consulted.

04:14The US made up its mind and it did what it had to do.

04:17All I think it means is,

04:19is that the old norms of how to deal with the world have changed.

04:23I think Europe is learning to engage with that.

04:26Pakistan also has to learn how to engage with that.

04:29But from our perspective,

04:31the point that I'd like to emphasize is that everybody has to look after their people.

04:35That's their mandate.

04:36When you see the West so fragmented,

04:38do you feel the urge to get even closer to China?

04:42I think that China's

04:46trajectory has been steady and consistent and not as erratic.

04:51And it is sustaining.

04:53Not as erratic as the US.

04:54It's just not been erratic.

04:55I'm not going to compare it to exactly who is just not erratic.

04:58We're pretty erratic.

05:00So you can take that comparison.

05:01But they have a consistent, stable trajectory.

05:06And that has its appeal.

05:08We are in the neighborhood and it makes sense for us to do business

05:13with China, to work with China.

05:14But it also doesn't make sense for us to cut us off from the rest of the world.

05:18We've had a huge increase in exports

05:21from Pakistan to Europe and exports from Europe to Pakistan.

05:24The US is still a massive, if not the largest market for the people of Pakistan.

05:31So it doesn't serve our purposes.

05:33Pakistan's economy is somewhat stable now,

05:36but politically there is a lot of chaos still.

05:40In order to deal with the security issues

05:43that Pakistan is facing

05:45in relation to the Taliban,

05:47Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan in Afghanistan and also Iran in some ways,

05:53do you think that will hinder the...

05:57There will be a lack of consensus to create a long term security strategy

06:03that Pakistan should formulate now?

06:06Pakistan's current security challenge is not emanating,

06:10I would say, out of Iran in any way, but it is a direct consequence

06:14of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, which has resulted in a whole host

06:21of militant organizations gaining a lot more momentum.

06:27One of which is the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan,

06:31which was a basically dismantled organization who did not maintain

06:36the capacity to recruit or to conduct attacks before the fall of Kabul.

06:40They've come back with the vengeance.

06:42You also have Daesh.

06:44And in addition to that, a whole host of subsets of separatists

06:49and nationalist groups that, again, as part of the previous operations,

06:52their ability to recruit, their ability to conduct

06:56military operations,

06:57connection activity in Pakistan had been deeply diminished.

07:01On pre the fall of Kabul,

07:04one could say that we were more successful in dismantling and taking

07:08on these militant outfits within Pakistan than all of NATO was in

07:14Afghanistan for their counter-outfits or for some of these outfits.

07:17In order to meet that challenge,

07:19Pakistan first needs an effective and comprehensive domestic consensus

07:24that it is owned across the political spectrum so we can take the fight

07:28to these groups like we have in the past.

07:30And I'm full of confidence that we can do in the future.

07:33And then we'll be in a position to have

07:35a serious conversation regionally and internationally about what are we going

07:39to do about this mess that we've left behind.

07:41But this is not happening in Pakistan,

07:43the consensus, particularly because of Imran Khan incarcerated.

07:49Imran Khan being incarcerated or not,

07:52I think my father was incarcerated and Mr.

07:55Nawaz Sharif was incarcerated.

07:57His daughter was incarcerated during Mr. Khan's time.

08:00It didn't stop us from forming consensus on important issues.

08:03Of course, if you choose to do the politics,

08:05that's just about yourself.

08:07And then if you, you know, sort of free me from my cases and then only,

08:10well, fair enough, I guess in that extreme landscape,

08:14it is hard to form consensus in politics, full stop.

08:20Mr. Khan has never been broadly part

08:22of a consensus against these groups, even in the past.

08:27Do you think the German government,

08:28the next one, should establish diplomatic ties

08:33with the de facto rulers of Afghanistan, the Taliban?

08:36To engage with the threat of terrorism

08:40and militancy outside of the geopolitical

08:44partisan issues, because it should be a challenge that unites us all.

08:50And the German government just this year expressed concern

08:54about deportations of Afghan refugees back to Afghanistan, complaining to Pakistan.

08:59I think a bigger question to ask is,

09:01because Pakistan has also been very collaborative.

09:05How long can they host the next million

09:07people without any engagement or compensation or way to fund?

09:12Pakistan's cracking down on Afghan migrants there.

09:14That's been taken up by amnesty, several human rights organizations.

09:19So I totally understand that, you know,

09:22Pakistan has to deal with, like, hundreds and thousands of refugees.

09:27But the crackdown has intensified over the years, particularly for those refugees

09:31in Pakistan who were only there on a transitionary visa,

09:36who were only there because they're waiting for their visa to the U.S.

09:41or to anywhere else

09:44for that. They will have a more hostile time.

09:47The crisis in the Middle East and possible

09:50fallout, which is related to Iran and Pakistan, the sectarian rifts are huge.

09:56Do you see it as a problem?

09:59How worried are you about the situation which is unfolding in the Middle East?

10:04Our primary security challenger from these

10:06militant organizations that have seen a boost from the fall of Kabul.

10:11As far as Iran is concerned, it's our neighbor.

10:15And Pakistan now is neighbors to China, Iran, Afghanistan and India.

10:21And because of the world's conflict with Iran, not our conflict with Iran,

10:25because of the world's conflict with Iran, our people and the people of Iran have not

10:29been able to trade, have not been able to engage economically.

10:32That's having an outsized impact

10:34on the economy, on the poverty, on the unemployment on either side of the border.

10:38I certainly don't think it'll help if there's any sort of escalation in conflict

10:41with Iran.

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