'We're in an aggression situation: Rwanda invaded east DRC with no meaningful self-defence argument'

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00:00Let's go back now to the situation in the eastern Congolese city of Goma, where this

00:06Thursday it is calm but tense.

00:09We're in the company of human rights attorney Daniel Levine Spahn.

00:13The connection there is back.

00:16We heard the UN Secretary General talking about respecting territorial integrity and

00:23working up the need for a summit that's going to be taking place starting on Friday to yield

00:32results.

00:34What more can the UN do?

00:35What more can the international community do?

00:37Yeah, I really appreciate the question.

00:40And just to say, I very much appreciate the Secretary General's emphasis on territorial

00:45integrity, because as I and many other lawyers have argued, we are in an aggression situation

00:52in which we have one country, Rwanda, which has invaded eastern DRC with no meaningful

00:58self-defense argument.

01:00We should be thinking about this along the lines of Russia and Ukraine rather than some

01:05sort of civil war.

01:07But as you pointed out, the real question is not what words will be said, but rather

01:11what actions will be taken.

01:13And for the past four years, we've seen very little appetite to hold Rwanda accountable

01:19for its actions in eastern Congo, whether Rwanda remains a major troop contributing

01:25and police contributing country to the United Nations.

01:29Rwanda recently received $20 million in funding from the European Union for a military mission

01:35in Mozambique.

01:36You mentioned earlier that 10 years ago, the occupation of Goma didn't last very long.

01:44And it's also important to note that 10 years ago, M23 ultimately collapsed.

01:49And a huge part of the reason M23 collapsed was because of international pressure on Rwanda.

01:54We saw hundreds of millions of dollars in financial aid to Rwanda frozen.

01:59We saw the president of the United States at that point, President Obama, on the phone

02:03with Paul Kagame, the president of Rwanda.

02:06We saw massive mobilization regionally.

02:09We saw African troops contributing, African states contributing troops to MONUSCO.

02:15So we saw this major international outcry and coordinated efforts to hold Rwanda accountable.

02:21And when those actions took place, Rwanda ceased supporting M23 and the group ultimately

02:26collapsed.

02:27It's precisely these sorts of accountability actions that we haven't seen 10 years later.

02:33So if you're an official sitting in Kigali and you're part of commanding these operations,

02:39I think the question for you is, is it politically worth it?

02:42And I can imagine that many, for many Rwandan officials, the calculus so far has been yes.

02:48Because we've seen a lot of words and a lot of statements.

02:51We haven't seen a lot of actions, nothing that I think could meaningfully push the Rwandan

02:56government to say, hey, this isn't worth it.

02:59We should no longer be deploying.

03:02Recent numbers are pointing to over 7,000 troops into eastern DRC.

03:05Daniel Levine-Spahn, many thanks for speaking with us here on France 24.

03:10My pleasure.

03:11Thanks so much for having me.

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