Donna Ockenden: Woman who led Shropshire maternity inquiry speaks of 'two wasted years' in wake of scandal

Shropshire Star

An Interview with Donna Ockenden

Transcript

00:00Good morning, Donna Lockingdon, the Chairman of the Independent Inquiry into the Maternity

00:08Problems at the Shropshire and Telford Hospitals Trust. Good to speak to you. It's been nearly

00:15three years now since you presented your report. What are your views on the progress that's

00:23been made since then?

00:26Yeah, thank you for coming to see me today. I would divide it up into two sections. First

00:33of all, if we look at local issues, I don't have any information on the progress made

00:39by the Trust locally. And I think that the reason I am back here in Shrewsbury meeting

00:46with some of the affected families is because families were really clear that the Trust

00:52have wasted two years. The Trust under previous leadership wasted two years. There was no

00:57contact with harmed and affected families. I think that what families have said to me

01:04is there has been an improvement in the attitudes of the Trust since the Interim Chief Executive

01:11took over. However, we are still at the stage where families are reporting to me warm words

01:19but not yet the action they would like to see.

01:23And when you hear that, when they do talk to you and say they haven't seen the action

01:29they want to see, how does that make you feel?

01:32I am extremely disappointed on behalf of the families because in all honesty they deserved

01:37better. And I think that we need to draw a line now. As you quite rightly say, it'll

01:47be three years on the 30th of March since I was in this very building for the launch

01:52of that report. There was a really clear road map and I think that local families, many

01:58local families, not all, but many local families have been left very disappointed to date with

02:05the efforts the Trust have made to communicate with them. So we need to see action now, concrete

02:12action that is going to give the families the assurance they need that the Trust are

02:18listening and are learning.

02:20And do you feel when you hear that, do you feel it's been a wasted opportunity in the

02:24sense that it's been three years, we could now be having a very different conversation

02:29now where it's all been sorted, do you feel?

02:32Absolutely. I think that time has been wasted and now we've got to try and make up for that

02:38time.

02:39And in terms of what needs to be done as a matter of urgency, action needs to be taken,

02:43what are the first two or three things that need to be done immediately now?

02:48I think for local issues, so across Shropshire, there has to be an absolute commitment and

02:55visible action in terms of listening to family voices, amplifying family voices and acting

03:01upon them. So I think listening has improved, but whether we're actually seeing concrete

03:07action coming out of what families are saying remains to be seen.

03:13Many, many families are saying to me that they've been left without the psychological

03:19support that they need, following on from what happened to them, the harm that was caused

03:26to them. So I'll be speaking very clearly on families' behalves today to say that the

03:32plan that's been put in place for psychological support is not sufficient and needs to now

03:38be ramped up as a matter of urgency.

03:42And is that something that really could have quite easily been done two and a half, three

03:46years ago? It's obviously prolonging the suffering still from the people who are dealing with

03:54it. Is that the mood you're getting from the people?

03:56Yeah, there was, for a period of time after the review closed, there was some psychological

04:02support put in place. We then have a period of time where the families are not engaged

04:08with. This is the affected and harmed families from my review who were not engaged with.

04:15And essentially now that that engagement has restarted because I've become involved, I

04:21am hearing that families have still got unmet psychological needs.

04:28There has been a plan put in place. I've been saying for many months it's insufficient.

04:33And yesterday I spoke with the Interim Chief Executive and the Medical Director to set

04:37out again why I believed it was insufficient. And today I'll be looking for action, which

04:43to be fair to the Interim Chief Executive and the Medical Director, that action has

04:48been promised. So I have to be always fair and balanced. But I want to see the results

04:53of those promises today.

04:55What are the shortcomings of the plan in your view?

05:01The shortcomings of the plan for psychological help is that there are simply insufficient

05:09people who have been appointed to provide that support. And I said that from the very

05:14beginning and I'm going to be saying it again today and wanting to see some change now.

05:23What were the reasons they gave you for that?

05:27So to be fair to the Trust, they took professional advice on what needed to be set up. And the

05:36resources have not been sufficient, but that is, you know, the Trust took that advice.

05:42My sense was that there was insufficient resource and unfortunately I've been proved right.

05:51But we will get there. I am very confident that we will get there, that the Interim Chief

05:56Executive and the Medical Director are listening and we just need to transform that listening

06:00now into action.

06:01You said they were slow to engage. In your view, why was that?

06:07I think that was under a previous leadership at the Trust, previous members of the executive

06:15team, previous accountable officer. And we have had improvements, without a doubt, since

06:25September but in terms of listening, the improvements have happened. But now we need to see concrete

06:32action.

06:33Yeah. And you obviously say you're confident that the changes will happen now. What happens

06:42now? Will you be coming back here and when?

06:45I will be. I think I had multiple messages from families, both face to face yesterday

06:54and after the meeting yesterday. Clearly, I have a large commitment to my current review.

07:04I'm chairing the review in Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust Maternity Services. But

07:11I have got some limited time that I can give to Shrewsbury, to Shropshire, so Shrewsbury

07:19and Telford. And I'll do my very best to assist as much as I can. I think it's looking like

07:27I will be here perhaps every other month and keeping an eye on things for the foreseeable

07:35future.

07:36And the maternity hospice services in Shrewsbury and Telford today, or in Telford mainly now,

07:42what are your thoughts on how they're being managed now?

07:45So I don't have any detailed information on that. Overseeing the local actions for learning

07:54was not part of my role when I completed my review. I have spoken to a mother who previously

08:05had suffered significant harm in maternity services and has since gone on to have a very

08:14beautiful baby. And she has said to me in her experience, there's been a transformation.

08:23She's one mother, she's recently had a baby at the Princess Royal Hospital in Telford

08:31and she has said to me the two experiences are chalk and cheese, in a good way, in a

08:36very good way. But I can't comment any more than that.

08:39Do you find that encouraging?

08:41Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

08:46And what's it been like, you know, so talking to the families of these, you know, these

08:51mothers particularly, you know, who have been through these awful things, what sort of experience

08:57has it been for you? And what's it been like going back to them now as well?

09:01Well, I did say to families yesterday that I was here until July 2022 on a very regular

09:09basis conducting, leading the family feedback meetings. And I honestly believed that when

09:17I said goodbye to our last family, who I met yesterday actually, at the end of their feedback

09:25that that was it. It was goodbye Shropshire. My job has been done. So to come back and

09:35hear that families are still hurting, haven't been listened to, and they don't necessarily

09:46yet feel assured that all of the change that should have happened has happened is extremely

09:53disappointing.

09:55Now, obviously, you're very experienced in these matters. How has it been like listening

10:00to the stories that they've told you about?

10:02Yeah. So at the end of the day, I am, I believe, highly professional, but I am a human being.

10:12And it can be deeply distressing to hear what has happened to families and to know that,

10:21you know, no matter how good I am at what I do, I can't turn the clock back. I can't undo the harm.

10:29For me to continue listening to families and being able to act effectively, I have to look

10:35after myself. I have something called supervision, which is on a regular basis, just like a debriefing,

10:42a confidential debriefing. Because what I've learned ever since I was a very young midwife

10:48is that if I listen, listen, listen, and absorb, absorb, absorb all the hurt and harm from families

10:55without then looking after myself, I would become ineffective. I'd become useless. And so I have to

11:03professionally take the responsibility to look after myself so I can continue to do what I do

11:09on behalf of families, if that makes sense.

11:11Yeah. And, you know, the stories you have heard, I mean, are they, you know, obviously you've

11:17dealt with lots of these other cases elsewhere. How do they compare? Are they among the saddest

11:23stories you've heard?

11:24I think each situation, whether that's my work in North Wales with elderly people or my work in

11:33Nottingham with what we call perinatal care, maternity and neonatal care, or here, each

11:39situation is unique. But I think it is true to say that many of the families that I have known

11:50since first coming to Shropshire in 2017, what happened to them, even with my supervision,

11:57my professional supervision, my debriefing, will remain with me forever. And I don't think I should

12:02say any more than that. But you don't forget. You don't forget.

12:07Donna Lockwood, thank you very much.

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