"There's No Reason to Test on Animals" | The Art of Beauty S04E05: Clean Beauty and Sustainability
In this episode of The Art of Beauty, host Amanda Imani and guest Ash Edwards explore the importance of clean beauty and sustainability. They discuss the shift away from animal testing, the impact of excessive packaging, and the differences between chemical and fresh products.
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00:00So example like eyelashes, we have full mink eyelashes and everyone talks about,
00:04ah, full mink, so pretty. Not realizing the mink is actually an animal.
00:12Hi everyone, welcome back to episode 5, season 4, Art of Beauty. And today I have a very special
00:19guest with me. I have Ash in the house. Hi guys. Hi, how are you doing? I'm okay. How are you?
00:25You look so good. You look so fresh. Thank you. Thank you. I feel like...
00:28Yeah, I feel like it's appropriate for this specific topic that we're talking about today.
00:33Yes. That was unintentional though. Really? But I feel like you're always so
00:37fresh-faced and I love it. I could never. But Ash here, I just have to refer to my notes because
00:44you have so many followers that I cannot remember the numbers, but I know on Instagram you have 108k.
00:51On TikTok you have 440k followers and on YouTube you have 12.4k. So you do everything. You're on
00:58literally every single social media platform possible. I try. So tell us a little bit how you
01:05got into the fashion beauty lifestyle. Okay, so it actually started initially as a hobby.
01:11So I got married 10 years ago and when I initially got married, we moved to Ipoh,
01:17to my husband's hometown. And my corporate background is actually public relations and
01:23marketing, comms and stuff. Makes sense. Yeah. But the job sector for these jobs in Ipoh were
01:30very slim. There was basically nothing to do at that time. And I used to watch a lot of YouTube
01:36videos, like the OG Beauty Gurus, Jaclyn Hill, Kathleen Fine. Love that era. So when I started
01:42watching those videos, I think Ivan was the one that started saying, maybe you should start
01:48recording your own videos just for the fun of it. So it started as a hobby. Honestly, did not
01:54expect it to grow as much as it has done. And I switched in 2020 to try doing it full-time
02:01and it's been going okay. I'm so happy for you. That's amazing. Like, you know, having a career
02:07that you love doing and that you kind of work remotely is honestly like, it's amazing. It's
02:12amazing. So cool. So today we're going to talk a little bit about clean beauty and sustainability.
02:16I know, you know, being in the beauty industry, we get to test out a lot of different products.
02:21Yeah. Almost everything, especially for you. I know. So, you know, we come across a lot of
02:27different stuff, you know, differently made, differently manufactured. And I think 2024
02:34is like such a big year for all things like clean because the clean girl look. Yes, yes. Right. So
02:40speaking of like clean girl look. Yeah. What about clean girl beauty? Let's say like clean beauty.
02:46What do you think about that? Like, is that a thing? Is it a new thing in your opinion? Is that
02:50something you think is going to be, you know, something that we can see more in the future?
02:55Okay. So I would say if you have never heard of clean beauty before, I would say, think of it
03:01like this. So, you know, when we have pregnant mothers and they use skincare and stuff, the
03:08doctors always say, like, don't use this, only use this. It's just because there are chemicals
03:13in certain products that may enter your bloodstream and affect the baby. So that's
03:17basically what clean beauty is about. It's about having products that has got basically no harmful
03:23substances, sulfates, parabens that goes into your system and affects your health, basically.
03:30And clean beauty also contributes a lot to being eco-friendly and environmentally sustainable.
03:38That's a word. So I think if anyone is new to clean beauty, just think about that. Think about
03:44products that you put on your face. Although I know I test a lot of products. Some of them are,
03:49some of them aren't. But basically products that you put on your face enters your bloodstream
03:55and can potentially affect your health. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it's impossible to
04:00just be completely clean. It's very difficult because, you know, not just the things we put
04:04on our face. It's just body cream, even things we put on our body, things we eat. It's very
04:09difficult to just be completely clean. But you could try. And just like you, I mean, I try my best
04:14to use cleaner beauty items, but sometimes you can't help it. You can't. I would say everything
04:21in moderation. Don't overdo it with a certain product. Don't straight away strip your skin.
04:27Go all clean. You don't want to shock the skin. But at the same time, for example,
04:32if you have hyperpigmentation, there are certain chemicals that will only work for your skin,
04:37that you may not find them in the clean beauty spectrum. So yeah, in moderation. Yeah. In
04:42moderation. Yeah. So you also brought up things like, you know, it being like sustainable. I think
04:47that's a big thing as well. Especially now. Yeah. And a lot more brands are being, working to that
04:52direction where they want, you know, things to be recyclable, things to, we can refill items now,
04:57especially like body care and stuff. So that's a really interesting, I guess, shift in the industry
05:02because I feel like a few years ago, it was all about like packaging. I know, I know, I know. Who
05:09cares? It was sustainable back in the day. But now that's all the rage. So how do you think like
05:14beauty brands have responded to this shift in like consumers, you know, wanting to be more,
05:19you know, I guess, environmental friendly. Yeah. And also, you know, making the planet a better
05:25place. I know. Everybody wants to recycle. Everybody wants to reuse things, which I
05:29honestly think is a good thing. It's amazing. Yeah. So from my personal experience, I'm honestly not
05:34the best experience, best lesson. Back then, like I've been doing this for, I think, nine years now.
05:40And back then I personally did not bother so much about packaging and the cardboard boxes,
05:45because we get a lot of PR guys. We got a lot, a lot of boxes, a lot of plastic. But I think as
05:50time goes on, when you, like I would do like one day PR unboxing, I'll open everything up and then
05:56I will realize like, oh my God, the amount of crap that I need to get rid of now. It sort of slowly,
06:03you realize that these kinds of things like that, like I appreciate the brands taking effort to
06:08print the cardboards and making it super pretty. But the truth is at the end of the day, if you're
06:12a creator reviewing skincare, makeup, the only thing that matters is the product itself. So the
06:18whole packaging that comes with it, we really appreciate it, but it's so wasteful. It's so
06:23wasteful. So to the time that sometimes I will, and there are also some brands, they're super
06:28generous. So let's say I already have product A and then three months down the road, they want me
06:33to talk about product A again. They will say like, hey, I'll send you product A again. So that's the
06:37time I'll be like, no, no, no, don't send it. I already have it. So it's just trying to be a bit
06:42more conscious. And I think it's the whole mindset of, we tend to think like, Allah, this one plastic
06:48is going to do what? So just imagine if 10 people think like that and a hundred people think like
06:53that, it's a hundred plastic bags. So it's just being a bit more conscious. Once again, in
06:57moderation, don't suddenly go like, no more plastic for life. It's practically impossible,
07:05but just being a bit more conscious. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's true. I think it's also
07:10like a lifestyle change, not just with your beauty products, but with what you eat as well.
07:14For sure. All those things come into play eventually and you cannot change your whole
07:20lifestyle overnight. So do you have any personal experiences maybe you can share with us
07:27that maybe you've tried a certain clean beauty product or more natural, it doesn't have to be
07:31completely clean, but maybe something that you've tried that you actually find works really well for
07:36you. Okay. Yeah. And I can say the brands. Yeah. Okay. So from my experience, one thing,
07:44okay, I'll just say this first before I go into this, my skin, touching all the wood world,
07:49but my skin can actually, can sort of lie on any top type of. You're so lucky. Yeah, I know.
07:58Okay. So my skin can actually take it. So that's why I may not necessarily see the differences
08:05between like clean versus not clean. But what I've noticed with clean beauty is I've tried
08:09with a brand called Vintage Wellness and they, I wouldn't say they are clean, but they are an
08:14all natural product. Like the ingredients that they use is all natural example. If you have
08:20something in our normal skincare that concentrates on hyperpigmentation. So Vintage Wellness has that
08:26as an onion extract. Cause back in the day, like we Indians, we would do like onion mask and
08:32onion hair mask and stuff like that. Yeah. We would actually do that. So they have managed to
08:37extract the, the thingy from the onion extract to put it in, to give you a more natural thing.
08:45So what I've noticed with that particular skincare was it works, but it takes time.
08:51Right. That's what, that's the main difference I've noticed with clean versus not clean,
08:55natural versus our normal synthetic stuff is synthetic works great. If you want like
09:01fast results and stuff, cause we live in a very fast-paced era and everyone's very impatient,
09:06including me. So with clean beauty, it takes time to actually work, but you see the results eventually.
09:14And coming back to clean beauty, one of my favorite, favorite products is like clean beauty
09:19cleansing balms. Cause they have no fragrances. The oils are very natural on the skin. It's not
09:25very harsh and doesn't sting the eye. That's very important. Yeah. So yeah. Okay. Yeah. I,
09:32I definitely agree with you. Like I've tried like a few, you know, cleaner, I would say
09:37completely cleaner beauty products, you know, things that are naturally sourced and derived
09:43things that I find, like you said, like they're a bit gentler on the skin, but yes, they definitely
09:49take a little bit of getting used to as well. Cause I feel like there's a difference in formulation
09:53as well when it comes to more natural products. But I wanted to ask you like,
09:59for makeup, for example, right. Do you feel like there is a difference between
10:08like more natural beauty product? You find like maybe the pigmentation or the formula is not the
10:14same as something. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. I think because with makeup, the moment you have
10:20it, not clean beauty, it's very pigmented. It's very long lasting 24 hour wear, one week wear,
10:26you know, stuff. But with cleaner beauty, you have things that are much more natural,
10:30very natural looking on the skin. Definitely better for your skin, but it will not last as
10:38long as the other brands would, because maybe the pigment is lesser and the basically chemicals that
10:44they use are lesser. So it's a, it's a pro in consideration. You have to see, like, you know,
10:49like let's say if you're doing two non-clean beauty products, do the other two, do the other two,
10:54like clean beauty, don't do all four. Apples, apples. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So for people
10:59who don't maybe know, like people, people like, so what do they actually put in makeup that is
11:04edibles, right? So maybe you could, maybe, maybe you could share a little bit, like what goes into
11:08an eyeshadow, like carmine, for example, like people don't realize what that actually is.
11:12Yeah, so this is something that I've always told even my followers, my friends, my family.
11:18Remember, my job here is to just review the product, right? Like I will tell you whether
11:23it's pigmented, it's not pigmented, but you are not supposed to follow my advice blindly. You're
11:28not supposed to blind by, maybe certain things you can blind by, because I do that as well,
11:32but you have to research what goes into all these products. Because sometimes you would realize,
11:37like I always say this, some products, like I said, I can take a lot of products. So some
11:42products that are agreeable to my skin may not be agreeable to somebody else's skin. I think I had
11:47one eyeshadow palette, can't remember which brand. It was perfect on my eye, but I had, another
11:53friend had received the same palette, tried it, and she had like an eye infection. So, and then
11:57we realized that there are certain ingredients that maybe she is not allergic to, and all that
12:03stuff. So example, like eyelashes, we have full mink eyelashes, and everyone talks about, ah,
12:08full mink, so pretty, not realizing the mink is actually an animal, and it actually comes
12:13from the mink. It's actually wearing animal's hair, which is a bit creepy.
12:17So, I mean, it is a bit creepy.
12:20Yeah, if you think about it, it is like, okay.
12:21Yeah, so they basically keep this mink in like a cage, and then they wait for them to shed off,
12:25which sounds very gruesome. So it's just putting into research, like taking the time to learn what
12:32goes into these products, and learning actually what works for your skin, I think is very important.
12:36Like being well-informed.
12:38Right, yeah, because like even for me, I'm really interested in like beauty history,
12:43and like if we look back like decades before, like it's crazy to think like how far we've come,
12:48but I don't know, 40, 50 years ago, like it was common, guys, like to put animal products into
12:55your beauty products, you know, makeup, skincare, fragrances, especially, I know like once upon a
13:01time, they would actually put like a civet-derived like essence into perfume.
13:09Yes, yes.
13:10Like get them to last longer.
13:11To get them to last longer, and kind of give them that more, you know, musky, animalistic like scent,
13:17which I think nowadays, it's, you're not allowed to anymore.
13:20Yeah, 100%.
13:21Yeah, so because all those things are, well, now are considered, you know, animal cruelty,
13:26and not many people want to support that, right?
13:29So what do you think of like brands now who are going more, like vegan, for example,
13:34like I'm sure there are a lot of people who are big on that, and maybe, you know,
13:38do you think there's a big market for people who are going specifically for more vegan brands?
13:44Okay.
13:44Yeah, brands who maybe don't test on animals.
13:46100%, 100%. I think one of the reasons why last time, I'm not justifying it,
13:52but just one of the reasons last time they used to do animal testing is mainly because
13:57there was no other way to test it.
13:58There was no other way to see if this product is agreeable or not.
14:02Now, I would think that our technology has advanced so much,
14:05we basically can create anything, which is scary.
14:08Yeah.
14:08But there shouldn't be an excuse to still be doing animal testing in this day and age.
14:14If we are always talking about, let's say, women's rights and men's rights,
14:18and rights for certain groups and ethnicity,
14:22rights for animals is super, super important as well.
14:25I just think with our technology now, you shouldn't be testing on animals.
14:29Yeah.
14:30As an animal lover, I agree with that.
14:32No, not at all. Not acceptable at this point.
14:35I know some brands are trying to wean it off completely,
14:38just wish they need to do it a bit faster.
14:40Because, yeah, just join the whole vegan animal group.
14:44Yeah, I feel like animal cruelty is probably one of the main things I look for in vegan products.
14:49Like, just as long as they are cruelty free, I'm pretty much on board.
14:54It doesn't have to be like, again, completely clean.
14:57Yeah.
14:57But for me, I feel like that's a very important aspect of if I were to buy a product or not.
15:02For sure, 100%.
15:04Because if brand A is able to do it completely, why can't brand B?
15:08Yeah, exactly.
15:09But I do see a lot more newer, indie upcoming brands.
15:13For sure.
15:13I feel like are really putting in the effort to make that kind of difference.
15:18Yes, exactly.
15:19It's interesting how their formulations are also quite up there,
15:22if you compare it to more traditional brands.
15:25I don't want to say any specific brands, but you know,
15:28you would think like these bigger companies would have the means to do it,
15:32because they have a whole R&D team to execute.
15:34Exactly.
15:35But for some reason…
15:35It's just taking that effort, actually.
15:37Right.
15:37It's just taking that leap of, oh, let's not do this anymore, that kind of a thing.
15:41Yeah, I'm sure it's a given.
15:42Like, you have to change so many different formulations.
15:45I think people also don't realize how difficult it is to, for example,
15:50change a formula after it's been rooted for X number of years.
15:54For sure.
15:54Like, to redevelop and reformulate takes a lot of time.
15:57100%.
15:58But I just also think in this day and age, with everything moving so fast,
16:02companies also have to be able to change.
16:06I think change is everywhere.
16:09Like today, there's a trend.
16:10Tomorrow, there's a different trend.
16:11So equally, although definitely difficult for the company to switch here and there.
16:15But yeah, they should.
16:17Yeah.
16:18And also, I feel like now with skincare, there's a lot of B Corp certified brands as well,
16:25which I've read.
16:25And that's mainly basically like how they treat their employees,
16:29how they source their ingredients.
16:31For sure.
16:32I feel like a lot of people now are more aware.
16:35A lot of consumers are more exposed to what they're actually buying
16:39and what they actually are supporting.
16:41I feel like back in the days where our grandparents or even my mom,
16:45they were not aware because if someone sold them a lipstick, it's like, oh, great.
16:49Nobody really took the time to understand where these ingredients were sourced for sure.
16:54Right.
16:54Or what actually goes into the product.
16:56I think it's because information back then was not that accessible as now it would be.
17:01Like, I can just Google it.
17:02Yeah.
17:02I can just sit at home and find out.
17:04And it's a good thing because it holds both consumer and brands accountable.
17:09Right.
17:09So because we have accountability, I think that it has changed a lot.
17:13Like brands have become a bit more aware,
17:15like not only making sure that their ingredients are created properly,
17:19but also sourced correctly from proper sources.
17:22Yep.
17:22And equally, like employees treated well in companies.
17:26You know, the employees are going to come out and then do TikTok stories.
17:29Exactly.
17:30Like, you know, when I worked with Brand X, this is part one.
17:33I feel like, but then again, like, I feel like it's such a transparent
17:37day and age where people have, you know, the platform to actually go out.
17:41Exactly.
17:42I don't want to say like exposed, but it's in a way.
17:44Yeah, so it just holds everyone accountable.
17:48You know, you, me, the brands, which is an amazing thing.
17:51Yeah.
17:51Yeah.
17:52Yes.
17:52So that's cool.
17:53But for people who maybe don't know, like how would you, for example,
17:58like if you're going to buy like a product and you read the ingredients
18:01for someone who's maybe new into beauty or skincare,
18:03are there any specific ingredients you personally avoid?
18:06Or are you just kind of like, you know, I'm good with anything or?
18:10Okay.
18:10So I think with the ingredient list, I'm learning myself as well.
18:14So I would say stay away from like the basics, like paraben, sulfates
18:18and a couple of other stuff.
18:19But if you want to make it a bit more simplified,
18:22if you go to Sephora, they have a whole clean beauty section.
18:25They have a logo that looks like a leaf.
18:27The green, the green round thing.
18:29So they make it super easy for you to identify clean beauty products.
18:34So if you're still new into it, definitely, first of all, research.
18:37Second of all, if you want to start buying,
18:39look for the brands that have this logo in Sephora.
18:42And also research on the brand themselves.
18:44Like once again, don't blind buy.
18:45Yeah.
18:46Research on the brand.
18:47Because in the end of the day, you're putting it on your face.
18:49Like if you want to check the ingredients in your McD burger,
18:53make sure you check your skincare too.
18:55Yeah, totally.
18:57And also like, you know, I think for people who are also new,
19:00they might not really understand.
19:02Again, it's quite a lot.
19:04It's intimidating when you first try.
19:05For sure.
19:06I'm learning myself.
19:07For sure.
19:07Me too.
19:08But, you know, a lot of people don't know like the first ingredient,
19:11like in the ingredients is the main.
19:13Most, yeah.
19:14Yeah.
19:14So that is basically the main.
19:17The largest component in your skincare.
19:19Yeah, in your skincare.
19:20And a lot of it would be like H2O water.
19:22Yeah.
19:23So they wouldn't realize, oh.
19:24You buy water.
19:25It's mostly H2O water.
19:27I think, you know, it's important for people like you,
19:29especially because you have such a big following.
19:31A lot of people don't actually realize how to actually read ingredients.
19:35They're like, sometimes like, you know, brands market things like this is infused with,
19:40so whatever, natural ingredients and all these expensive oils.
19:43And it'll be the tiniest percent.
19:46It's the tiniest percentage.
19:47And then you would realize that, oh, this is why the product isn't working.
19:52Because it's actually like 0.1.
19:54It's the tiniest bit.
19:55Yeah.
19:56So, yeah, it's really, really important, I guess, to, you know,
19:59know how to kind of read the ingredient list as well.
20:02I know it can get overwhelming.
20:03It is overwhelming.
20:04Especially when you have like 50.
20:06100%.
20:06So what I will always suggest is if the ingredients are becoming a bit more confusing,
20:11like read reviews, read reviews from people,
20:14read like clean beauty blogs that they explain in like layman terms.
20:18I think that'll be easier to understand.
20:21And also, like you mentioned, parabens, sulfates, phthalates.
20:23We see that a lot in makeup and hair care, especially.
20:27And I think like, you know, people are familiar with these terms,
20:32but they don't necessarily know.
20:34And I know there's a lot of research still and kind of like,
20:37you know, people saying like, oh, it's not really a big deal.
20:40It's just conservative.
20:41But some people are really kind of like trying to cut that out of the system
20:45because they say, you know, it could potentially lead to,
20:49you know, defects in their reproductive system and things like that,
20:52which is honestly, that's a whole different thing.
20:55It's a whole thing.
20:56When I was trying to read up, I looked at all the potential things and
20:59cancer was the top of, was the main thing.
21:02And even like fragrances for people that are asthmatic, not good at all.
21:07And apparently talc.
21:09Talc?
21:09Oh, yes.
21:10Not good for your lungs.
21:12We were like always like, oh, cancer.
21:14Not here.
21:15We are blowing our setting powder up for a whole transition.
21:18Like, yeah, exactly.
21:20We're like inhaling it.
21:20So, yeah, it's cool that now even powders are, a lot of powders are talc free now,
21:25which is insane to me because you would think powders are basically talc, right?
21:28Yeah.
21:29And, you know, things like, not just that, but things that you put on your lips,
21:33like especially I feel like because, you know, when you eat or when you.
21:36Exactly.
21:37You basically eat your lipstick.
21:40Just make sure like the products that you put in your eyes and your mouth are clean.
21:45Yeah, totally.
21:46Totally.
21:46For sure.
21:47So that's, that's so interesting because like when you actually think about it,
21:51there's like a whole new world of lead beauty, sustainability of all that.
21:56But let's talk a little bit more about like eco-friendly, sustainable brands, right?
22:01So I know brands like Body Shop, L'Occitane, like they are big into, you know, recycling everything,
22:07into refilling, bringing your own bottles.
22:10Yes.
22:10We love that.
22:11We love that.
22:11Yes.
22:12I see that a lot in skincare.
22:14I don't necessarily see it as much in makeup.
22:17Right.
22:17I think it's, I don't know, maybe like, I think recently we've been seeing a bit of like
22:22refillable bottles, like let's say from Fenty and stuff like that.
22:26But I think with makeup, we still have not seen the big leap of
22:30refilling your packages versus getting a whole new bottle or a whole new thing.
22:35So maybe with powders, I guess.
22:37Yeah.
22:38Oh yeah.
22:38Powders, yes.
22:39But let's say blush, maybe your contour and stuff like that.
22:42We still don't see that leap there.
22:44One thing I love about Body Shop is they have this reuse, they basically take all their
22:49plastic bottles, they mush it down and then they make like combs and, you know, your soap.
22:58Yeah.
22:58And it makes so much sense to actually see it back in the store.
23:02Yeah.
23:02And I think for Body Shop, most of the things that they have there, their stands and stuff,
23:06everything is recyclable.
23:08So it's been used before.
23:10Yeah.
23:10So it's not just the product, but it's actually upcycled, which is amazing.
23:14And it goes back into the store, like their aesthetic, like the things that you actually
23:18can see and touch and feel, which honestly, but then again, I feel like Body Shop has been
23:23doing it as I recall.
23:25They were one of the first.
23:26One of the first, for sure.
23:27Yeah.
23:28The pioneers.
23:29Yes, yes, yes.
23:31One of my most favorite things that they've done is the refillable bottles,
23:35because I'll go through their...
23:37The body wash.
23:38Yes, the body wash, like nobody's business.
23:40And I love that you can just, although yes, I understand in the beginning days,
23:43I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to keep this bottle, take it back to the mall.
23:47You know, it's a bit more harder, but when you do it, you realize like, okay,
23:51it's just being a bit more conscious.
23:52I think that's so, so important.
23:54Yeah.
23:56I know we talk about clean beauty sustainably.
23:58I know you're also very passionate about inclusivity.
24:00Oh, 100%.
24:01Diversity.
24:02100%.
24:03So maybe you could tell us a little bit like in this day and age for someone like you,
24:08again, you try so many different products, different brands.
24:10Yeah.
24:11What do you see?
24:12Is there a big difference, for example, for when you first started?
24:15Okay.
24:15To like now, how do you think brands have maybe evolved or changed throughout the years?
24:20I think 100%, 100 or 100%.
24:23When I first started, I think there were barely brands out there that had shades,
24:27like the basic foundation shades for like deepest skin tone for the Indian community.
24:34I think that has definitely grown over the years.
24:37It's definitely grown.
24:38You definitely have brands coming in with more colors that is exclusive for everybody.
24:43It started definitely with Fenty Beauty.
24:45Yeah.
24:45Like she was the trailblazer.
24:48Yeah, I know.
24:48Something like that.
24:49And I think after that, it definitely got better.
24:53But I would definitely still say, we're in 2024,
24:56I think every brand out there has to be inclusive.
25:00So this is what I've learned.
25:01I don't know if this is controversial to actually say this out loud, but I will say this.
25:04Say it if it is.
25:04Just cut it out, guys.
25:06Okay.
25:06So what I've learned over the past with some brands,
25:10why they don't bring in deeper skin tone shades is because
25:16they might think that there's no buying power.
25:19Like it does not get bought off shelves.
25:21They may not be like sales return.
25:23But I can assure you, we Indians have deep pockets.
25:27Yeah.
25:27I can assure you.
25:28Like you have to see the way we shop for saris and gold is crazy.
25:34I think it's just the information has not reached them to no example.
25:38Let's say brand A has got deeper skin foundation.
25:42So because the information does not reach them,
25:44and they are so used to seeing the normal brands,
25:47example Fenty, MAC, Bobbi Brown,
25:49they may not know that there are different brands that have friendlier skin tones.
25:54Like now Lancome has come up with different skin tones.
25:57We have Laura Mercier, we have Nars and stuff.
26:00So I think it's just the point of information reaching them.
26:03So it comes back to how brands see it as well.
26:06Like don't only see the fair skin shades,
26:09see the deeper skin shades,
26:10because we just want to feel included.
26:12Yeah, of course.
26:13And I feel like, I mean,
26:14that's especially if you're coming out with foundations and things,
26:16but not just foundations,
26:18but even things like eyeshadow and blush, bronzers.
26:21Please don't make it so light.
26:22Right?
26:23I would think, you know,
26:25like for someone who for me,
26:27I've always been able to find it.
26:28So I cannot, I mean, I can't say I can relate,
26:32but I can understand how it would feel,
26:36you know, to be really frustrated.
26:37Like you want to, if you like a formula, for example,
26:41you can't find a shade that works.
26:42Because it's a bit too light.
26:44I know.
26:44It looks ashy.
26:45I know.
26:45That would be so frustrating.
26:47So, you know, I love that.
26:51But like, you know, for example, blush and bronzers,
26:55you see like, you know,
26:56now they're trying to make, I guess,
26:57you know, things that are more complimentary for deeper skin.
27:01So what I've noticed is when the brands do launches,
27:04let's say in America,
27:06there are actually deeper colors,
27:08but it's just the colors don't come to Malaysia.
27:12So I think it's just once again,
27:13comes back to maybe they're buying power and all that stuff.
27:17But I still feel if it's introduced
27:19and information reaches the target audience,
27:23it will definitely sell out for sure.
27:25Because we are also learning,
27:27like I think makeup in the Indian community
27:30has also changed over the years.
27:32Like in the beginning,
27:33we were all so used to the idea of,
27:35OK, just use the MAC foundation,
27:37use the MAC powder and you're done.
27:39Now we're talking about blush, about bronzer, about contour.
27:42So everyone's still learning.
27:43And it's nice to have products that are accessible
27:46within Malaysia itself
27:47versus having to privately order them online.
27:51Yeah.
27:52Yeah.
27:52Do you think like maybe local brands should look into that?
27:56Because I mean, obviously our demographic is so diverse.
27:59Especially in Malaysia, Southeast Asia, let's just say.
28:02We have such a diverse group of people
28:04with different backgrounds, different skin tones,
28:07different skin type.
28:08Yes.
28:09And do you think maybe more ASEAN brands, for example,
28:14should, you know, do a little bit more R&D,
28:16a little bit more reviews with people
28:18who are not necessarily in the majority category of,
28:21you know, light to medium skin tone?
28:22Yes, for sure.
28:23OK, so this is something I learned on my trip to Prague with Dermaco.
28:28So Dermaco basically took us to their office
28:30and we did an exercise of creating our own foundation shade.
28:34I'm not even kidding you, OK?
28:35So they basically start off with a,
28:37I'm just giving everyone the idea of how foundation shades are made.
28:41But once again, not justifying the brand's actions.
28:44So you start off with a white base,
28:45like in a cup you have this much of white base.
28:48And then you play with pigments that are yellow, red and black.
28:52So you're mixing.
28:53So you've got to mix until you get your shade colour.
28:57I was the last person to finish
28:59because it was so hard to get it to my skin type.
29:03My skin tone, especially, so hard.
29:05The pigments of, it was not easy at all.
29:08And I think at the end of it,
29:10so we started with a volume, like a liquid volume of this much.
29:13I had doubled the volume when I ended.
29:15Wow.
29:16Because it took that much of pigment to go into the foundation
29:20to get it to my colour.
29:21So I can understand the struggle
29:23with coming up with deeper skin tone shades.
29:25I understand it's not easy, definitely not easy,
29:28but not an excuse not to do it.
29:31But definitely, I think brands are still coming out
29:32because I think recently, there's a Mais foundation.
29:35She's a local brand.
29:36And she introduced, I think,
29:37four new deeper skin tone colours.
29:39I've ordered them.
29:40So I'm excited to try.
29:42So it's nice to see things that are accessible to our local market.
29:46Yeah, right.
29:46I think, yeah, it's slowly becoming a bit more accessible
29:50and kind of like a new norm.
29:52Yes.
29:52But I do agree that there is definitely room for improvement
29:55and definitely faster room to improve it.
29:58Definitely.
29:59But yeah, I mean, again, a lot of people don't realise,
30:01like just because you can make a foundation in,
30:04for example, like a lighter colour,
30:06it's not necessarily the same formula.
30:07No, the lighter colour is so easy to do.
30:09Yeah, it's a completely different.
30:10A drop of red, a drop of and you're done.
30:12Yeah, exactly.
30:13And then the deeper you are there,
30:15mixing it for hours, I tell you.
30:17Even I think that,
30:18because I think I was the only brown skin person
30:20in the Dermaco trip.
30:22So everyone was like, oh my God, it's so hard.
30:25And I think they mentioned something along the lines,
30:27yes, it's actually very hard to make deeper skin.
30:31So I'm wondering how Fenty Beauty did it.
30:32I know, she must have an amazing R&D team.
30:34For sure.
30:35Yeah, but yeah, I mean, it's so fun talking to you, actually,
30:39because I feel like you have so much knowledge
30:40and information about the industry
30:43and you're so hands on with everything that you do.
30:46I love watching your videos, by the way.
30:47Thank you, I love your videos too.
30:49Thank you so much.
30:49I love your makeup videos.
30:52But I feel like you're just so down to earth.
30:54It was a pleasure speaking to you.
30:56Thank you so much for having me.
30:57Thank you so much for coming on the show and talking
30:59and sharing a little bit about, you know,
31:01your experiences with, you know, Clebeauty.
31:04Also diversity, inclusivity.
31:06Definitely.
31:06I really appreciate it, guys.
31:07If you haven't yet, do subscribe to us.
31:09Thank you, guys.
31:10Our YouTube, TikTok, Instagram.
31:12I always tell them, like, I can talk for hours.
31:14So anyone who's calling me on podcast has to be like me,
31:17really careful.
31:18But it was a pleasure having you.
31:20I'm so glad you're on the show.
31:22And I can't wait.
31:23I can't wait for this video to come out.
31:25Yeah.
31:25I'm sure a lot of people will learn a lot of things.
31:28From you, especially.
31:28So.
31:29And thanks, Ash, once again for being on this podcast with me.
31:33And that's it from us for this episode.
31:36And I will see you guys in the next one.
31:38Bye.
31:50Bye.