Jayson Tatum Finally Gets CANDID About Past Mistakes w/ Chris Mannix | Celtics Beat
Chris Mannix is a Senior NBA Writer for Sports Illustrated. Chris joins the program to discuss Jayson Tatum's maturity, how the Boston Celtics have set themselves up for the future, and Team USA's chances for gold. Twitter: @SIChrisMannix
3:40 - Putting the SI cover story together
16:43 - What motivates Tatum/Celtics next
22:04 - Celtics experience gives them leg up on competition
26:02 - Joe Mazzulla is CRITICAL to Banner 19
40:12 - Who should be the heavy favorite other than the US?
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3:40 - Putting the SI cover story together
16:43 - What motivates Tatum/Celtics next
22:04 - Celtics experience gives them leg up on competition
26:02 - Joe Mazzulla is CRITICAL to Banner 19
40:12 - Who should be the heavy favorite other than the US?
Available for download on iTunes and Spotify on Friday, July 26th, 2024. Celtics Beat is powered by Gametime! Download the app and use the promo code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase!
CLNS Media is Powered by:
Prize Picks - PrizePicks.com/CLNS
Download the app today and use code CLNS for a first deposit match up to $100!
Gametime - https://gametime.co
Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest Price. Guaranteed. Terms apply.
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00:00Self-Explained is brought to you by Price Picks and the Game Time app.
00:31Stay away from Deadline Hollywood on Twitter.
00:35Thank God I did see it. Block mute that account.
00:38There are spoilers galore all over that freaking thing that I would have been pissed if I saw it before seeing the movie.
00:45So just mute it. It's a public service announcement for all of you out there.
00:49Now I am exhausted. I'm on like 3-4 hours sleep from work last night.
00:55But I'll tell you what, we have a very special guest that you can already see if you are watching versus listening.
01:00And that is Chris Mannix from Sports Illustrated.
01:02When Chris says, hey I can do the show but I gotta go early, you set an alarm.
01:06You get up to talk to Chris Mannix because we have just a great article I want to talk about.
01:12All Things Boston Self-Explained.
01:14Morning Chris, how are ya?
01:15I'm good guys, how we doing?
01:17Good. Well I don't know who has had the chance to read it yet, but it came out yesterday as we sit here now.
01:24So I hope everyone has, and if you haven't, do check it out.
01:27In Sports Illustrated, if you still get the magazine, and there's just nothing better than actually having the magazine in your hands.
01:34This is one of those frame-worthy covers as well for you Mannix, if that's in the plans, I'm not sure.
01:40Jason Tatum on the cover of the 70th anniversary issue of Sports Illustrated.
01:45He's holding a champagne glass, basically that Leo DiCaprio meme that everybody sees on Twitter all the time.
01:52The story is called The Celtics Define Greatness in Any Era.
01:56It is of course written by you, someone who's been around this team for really your entire life in one form or another.
02:04And the article, just to spoil a little bit for the people, details the early days of the Celtics,
02:10the dynasty that was ushered in by Red Auerbach and Bob Cousy, eventually obviously Bill Russell,
02:16and sort of skips all the middle part of the Big Three era and Larry Bird and everything,
02:22acknowledges him, but gets to where we are now, and Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown.
02:26It's really sort of a compare and contrast between Cousy in particular, the 96-year-old legend,
02:34who is still living in Worcester, came here for Holy Cross and never left,
02:38and Jason Tatum and the mid-20s superstar and what he has already accomplished and looking to continue accomplishing in the NBA.
02:47And again, a really fun article.
02:49Before we get to some of the specifics and I think some really noteworthy quotes from this piece,
02:55what was it like putting this one together?
02:57It was fun, and in a way it was maybe a little more rushed than I wanted it to be.
03:07Now, for context, this is the 70th anniversary of Sports Illustrated,
03:13and in addition to the Celtics being the winningest team in NBA history in terms of championships,
03:20they are also the most successful team of the Sports Illustrated era.
03:24I think they have one more championship than obviously the Lakers, the Montreal Canadiens, I think, are on that list.
03:32And when this issue was being put together in February and March,
03:39because we do have that kind of runway when we're putting together a monthly magazine,
03:43you don't necessarily think about putting the Celtics or Tatum on the cover.
03:48But then mid-June rolls around and the Celtics win the championship,
03:53and they are the winningest franchise in the magazine's history.
03:57So all of a sudden, you want to do something on the Celtics.
04:01Coincidentally, the first NBA player to ever be on the cover was Bob Cousy back in 1956.
04:09And Cousy, fortunately for all of us, is still alive.
04:13He's, right now, weeks away from his 96th birthday and still living in Worcester.
04:20So when I phoned Cousy up and asked him if he wanted to talk about the halcyon days of the Celtics, he was on board.
04:28Tatum was on board with working with us on the cover.
04:33So it all came together really over, I want to say a maximum of four days,
04:38from the first interview to when the story had to be written and obviously sent to be edited.
04:46But even though it came together a little faster than I would have liked,
04:50I enjoyed the process of getting to know Bob a little better and certainly spending some time with Jason.
04:57Yeah, I guess my question is, at what point does Bob Cousy become a part of the story?
05:02Is it something going in that you're like, we've got to have, considering the scope of everything, Bob's going to be included right away?
05:09I liked in the beginning where Tatum picks up the old cover of Cousy saying, wow, this is really cool from 1958, 56, 58, right?
05:17He didn't believe it was a real, 56, he didn't believe it was a real picture at first, like he looked at.
05:24Because, look, photography in the 1950s is a lot different than what it is today.
05:28And there is kind of a watercolor-esque aspect to some of the photos that are presented from that era.
05:36I wanted Cousy involved immediately, once I was told he was the very first NBA cover.
05:43And I've got a little bit of a relationship with Bob, I've talked to him on the phone in the past over the years.
05:48And being from Boston, I read every time Shaughnessy calls him every four months to talk to him about something going on with the Celtics.
05:56So, look, I know he's still sharp and he still very much follows the game.
06:01And I really wanted to link these two guys and those two teams together to give people kind of a viewpoint of what the Celtics were back then to how they became what they are now.
06:16And Cousy, he's involved on multiple levels.
06:19Number one, he's one of the greats from the first Celtics championship team.
06:23But Cousy also founded the Players Association, right?
06:26Cousy laid the groundwork for building the association that has become a powerhouse today and has helped the players generate billions of dollars in annual revenue.
06:39As Cousy said, he kind of jokingly said, back in my day, I held out for $9,000 so Jalen Brown could get $300 million.
06:48There's a lot of spiderwebs connecting Bob Cousy and his generation to Tatum and this one.
06:57And it is, again, it really is just the two voices.
07:01It's Cousy and Tatum in this article.
07:05It's not like other guys talking about these two guys.
07:08It's these two in the string connecting the generations and, again, the NBA as it's grown over the past 70 years as well.
07:16There's one part in particular.
07:17It's a little bit long, but I want to read it because I just think it's really illuminating as far as, you know, just something Tatum hasn't really talked about elsewhere before, despite all the interviews that he does.
07:30And it's about the relationship between he and Brown and whether or not, you know, is this is something we've talked about on this show.
07:39It's something that people have talked about for years.
07:43You know, whether Tatum has been as publicly as outwardly supportive of Jalen Brown as he should be or people feel he should be.
07:52So it says, as you wrote, Tatum will come to some missteps over the years, but he insists he never wanted Brown to be traded.
07:58Most stars, this is the quote, don't make a conference finals until 27-28.
08:03We were doing it at 19-20.
08:05He does admit, however, he could have been more vocal.
08:07I've always told him maybe I should have done a better job of voicing my feelings in the public eye.
08:11He always knew that I wanted him to be here.
08:13I would always tell him, man, I don't get involved with any of those talks.
08:16I never went to Brad Stevens or any other player like, yo, I want this guy in.
08:20I want this guy out of here.
08:22I show up.
08:23I want to do my job, play basketball.
08:25Looking back in those moments, I don't know.
08:27You know, I didn't know how they could affect somebody because I was never in that situation.
08:31I feel like maybe I could have done a better job of publicly saying, no, we don't want anybody.
08:36We want JB.
08:37I was always just like, I want to stay out of it.
08:40I think that's a really interesting quote for many reasons, one of which is I'm wondering when exactly you talked to him
08:47because this was something that, yet again, you know, I think we were talking about this last weekend,
08:53was a question, an issue of whether or not Tatum was supportive enough of Jalen Brown not making Team USA
09:02when it was Derek White and Tatum went on his kind of social media hissy fit, for lack of a better way of putting it,
09:08and Tatum was asked about it was sort of like, you know, there are a lot of guys that deserve to be here.
09:13And he wasn't really like, hey, Jalen deserves to be here.
09:18Yeah.
09:19So I talked to Jason about a week after the championship.
09:23So this is well before what happened with USA basketball.
09:27And I do put the USA basketball stuff in a bit of a separate category.
09:34Right. Because I don't believe that Jalen Brown is upset with any of the three Celtics that are on the USA basketball team.
09:44I believe he's most irked with USA basketball for, you know, not naming him coming off the kind of run that he had.
09:54And with Nike, who he name checked on social media as well, and who he firmly believes had something to do with him being boxed out of that team.
10:03So I don't think there's any lingering tension or will be any lingering tension because of what happened with Tatum and Derek White and USA basketball.
10:15If you remember, after Tatum won his gold medal a few years back, there was that picture of Brown celebrating with him.
10:23I think it was in Vegas. So, like, I think they're fine on that count.
10:30But I did find interesting that Tatum was so outwardly open about, you know, kind of the missteps that he did make along the way.
10:38Because it seems like, you know, Jalen Brown has had a rough go of it in Boston and not anymore.
10:45Now he's he's he's he's golden. But like, you know, from the very beginning, nobody really wanted him here.
10:51Right. Like his draft selection was booed on draft night.
10:54It seems like we in the media have been trying to trade him and include myself in that, you know, for the last seven years.
11:00Right. Like whether it's for, you know, Kevin Durant most recently or Kawhi Leonard or Anthony Davis.
11:06I mean, you name whenever their superstars name comes up because the Celtics at that time had a cache of draft picks and movable contracts and a quote unquote star in Jalen Brown.
11:16We were all putting him on the trade block.
11:18And I think that that Jason's biggest regret based on our conversations was that he didn't do more to squash those rumors before they they ran wild.
11:31Right. Like you didn't often hear from Jason Tatum about that unless he was asked directly about that.
11:38And I've never I've never got any sense.
11:40I've never in two cover stories involving Tatum and Tatum and Brown going back to 2022 after their their run to the finals.
11:49And people on and off the record would all tell me, like, there's no issue here.
11:53Like, they're not they're very different people. Right.
11:58Like, they're not going to be hanging out every single weekend, chopping it up.
12:02Like, that's just not who they are. But their greatest teammates, they're they're very much friends in a sense of the word.
12:09And there's no issue between them. But I think Tatum's regret is that he didn't do more to let everybody know that Jalen was his guy.
12:20Like, he's long believed that he's long wanted to play with him, but he didn't do it.
12:24He doesn't believe he did enough over the years to make sure the public at large knew that.
12:29And he felt like if he did, maybe we wouldn't have been in the kind of situation we were in the last few years where we're constantly talking about trading Jalen Brown.
12:39Yeah, I want to go back to that. Actually, that cover that you wrote two years ago because we had you on after that piece was what had come out.
12:46And it's interesting to see the difference, right?
12:49You get in those three guys after the NBA finals appearance versus now you're getting Jason Tatum off his first championship.
12:57What was the difference between Tatum in those two interviews? Is there any different?
13:01Oh, yeah. I mean, Stark. I mean, Tatum during that interview in 2022, there was a tension to him there like a I don't call it a sadness, but that was fresh off the offseason right after they lost in the finals.
13:21And that was a tough offseason for Jason Tatum. He told me during this most recent interview that after that season ended, he really started to have some doubts about whether or not he could be the guy that leads a team to a championship.
13:38You know, that was the first time in his career that he questioned maybe his own ability, at least as far as as being the star, the Giannis or the LeBron or the guys that are the alphas on championship teams.
13:53You know, he got over it, couldn't really pinpoint when he got over it, but he said he got he got past it.
13:58But that was a tough time in the basketball life of of Jason Tatum. This was our conversation just last month. The word I would use to kind of describe his demeanor was almost relief.
14:13It was certainly one one feeling that he had, like, you know, it's it's over. I went through all that. It was incredibly difficult, but I achieved what I wanted to achieve. We achieved what we wanted to achieve.
14:26And and now we we move forward. So it was just very different attitudes, very different feelings coming from Jason Tatum in those two interviews.
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16:37Yeah, I mean, I haven't personally spoken with Tatum as you have, obviously, but just listening to him, it almost the word that comes to mind, it sounds euphoric.
16:46You know what I mean? That's another one. Yeah, he's just in this place where everything that he has been not told he couldn't achieve.
16:54But all the doubters, all the skeptics, you know, in recent years saying, as you just alluded to, like that, that inner self doubt of, you know, can I be one of those guys?
17:04Can I get over the hump? And, you know, him acknowledging he and Brown, his teammates even said it like all the words that that we in the media say he said it.
17:13He said, like, we learned to coexist. Well, now he's got the banner, Chris, and he's won a gold medal and he's chasing another one.
17:20He's basically in an individual level done everything you can do other than win an MVP and win a finals MVP.
17:28And, you know, I know that he said and I imagine it was genuine that he's happy that Brown got the finals MVP, you know, as someone who's really gotten the short end of the stick for a number of years in a lot of different ways.
17:40And some of the ways that we talked about, but now going forward, if I don't even know if he needs this, hopefully he doesn't.
17:48But in the same way that Tom Brady would always talk about needing that next thing to motivate him or constantly reminding himself, hey, I was pick one ninety nine.
17:57And that's sort of us against the world thing. You know, what now drives Jason Tatum going forward, knowing that he is still in his mid 20s, just entering his NBA prime years by historical definition?
18:11I know he wants multiple rings, but it is. Is it that simple? It was I've got one. Now I need to to continue to be in that conversation among greats because true greats win more than one.
18:22Or is there something else? Yeah, I think it is the winning more than one to establish himself not just as a true great in the NBA, but as a true great in Celtics history.
18:35I mean, remember, Jason Tatum came to Boston with zero knowledge of the Celtics. And I mean, like zero, right? Like, you know, there's that great story of how he didn't know who Cedric Maxwell was until he watched that ESPN 30 for 30.
18:48Like he he didn't know the organization. He knew, you know, Cousy and the name to a degree. Obviously, everybody knew Russell was, but he didn't have any kind of connection to this franchise over the years.
19:01He has built that some of those connections. Obviously, Max is around all the time. I got a chance remarkably to meet Larry Bird for the first time at the last All-Star Weekend.
19:11And I think Tatum from talking to him, he started recognize that to be, you know, consider one of the the guys that belongs up in those rafters, like multiple championships is what gets you there.
19:25Now, there have been guys have only won one most recently, Pearson Garnett. But he's looking at it like I want to be known along the same lines as Larry Bird, who's got multiple championships, Russell, Cousy, Havlicek, Hindson.
19:38Like these guys, you know, you're not going to get to six championships for Cousy, 10 or 11 for Russell.
19:44But, you know, he's looking at the next step of his legacy being a multi-time NBA champion. Yeah, he's 100% still motivated by the individual stuff like he wants to be the MVP.
19:56There's there's no doubt about that. And look, even though I believe him when he says he was happy for Jalen Brown winning finals MVP, of course, he wants that.
20:04He's a highly competitive guy. Everybody in the NBA who is competing on that stage wants to be finals MVP.
20:11I bet Luke Cornette went to the finals thinking, man, wouldn't it be great if I could be finals MVP?
20:15Like everybody wants that distinction. It's it's a it's a feather in your cap. Doesn't mean you're unhappy when your teammate wins it.
20:22But everybody certainly wants it. I think Tatum at some point in his career wants that.
20:27So there are there are individual accomplishments that I think are are going to fuel him going into next season and beyond.
20:34But bigger picture, he's motivated to be one of those all time great Celtics that walks away from this team with multiple championships on his resume.
20:45Yeah, it's it's one of these things where I think some people call it the disease of me versus, you know, trying to be more team oriented after you win the first one.
20:53This will be interesting to see how they they kind of, you know, because, look, it hasn't always been easy for these guys.
20:59Like it's they've they've made it more difficult. And one of the things as you look at their playoff run, I thought it was pretty evident, you know, in the past.
21:07They let Atlanta get to six games. You know, they would fool around a little bit.
21:11They lose games at home against Philly. That that's got to go longer than it should.
21:16It felt like this year, Chris, that there was just, again, a little bit more maturity to the group, whether it was the influx of Drew Holiday or guys just understanding the journey is hard every single year.
21:29You got to bring it because, like you look at their road, five games, five games, four games, five games.
21:34They didn't waste any time. And that's the one thing I think as you after everything is clear, the dust has settled.
21:39The one thing that I take away from a lot of the season is these guys have had so many hardships, but they've learned, they've grown, they've matured.
21:48And now they just seem like a more well-tuned unit.
21:52And as you look around the league at teams that are going to be in the spotlight in a different way, maybe for the first time, like you look at the Knicks, right, the Knicks are going to be way up there.
22:03And super contender status with the Celtics, with the additions that they've made, Philly is going to be under, I think, potentially a different type of scrutiny this time around.
22:12It's always been kind of fun and lovable with Joe Allenby.
22:15But now it's kind of and even with these Olympics facing a ton of backlash here.
22:19So as you look at the Celtics and their maturity over the years, is you think this gives them a leg up to repeat to become the first team to repeat since the Warriors did it with Kevin Durant?
22:30Yeah, they've got a window here.
22:32There's no doubt about that.
22:34It's at least one year.
22:36Could be two years.
22:37We don't know how the ownership situation is going to shake out and what new ownership feels about paying the kind of tax penalties that are coming for this team in the future.
22:47But there is a window that's open.
22:49And look, as far as as how they have used the failures of the past to to get them to where they are today, that's that's now part of the DNA of the new NBA team.
23:03Like, I don't think we're ever going to see again what we saw happen in 2008, where the Celtics brought a bunch of new guys in two new superstars in and were able to put it all together in one year and win a championship.
23:16I don't even think you're going to see a situation like we saw with the Miami Heat or I mean, you're certainly not going to see a Kevin Durant to Golden State type of situation ever again.
23:25Like this is the new NBA is where winning championships takes time.
23:30Right. And we saw it with Denver just a year earlier, where after the Nuggets won their championship, one of the first things some of their guys said at the podium after the game was like, look, this is a product of all our previous failures.
23:41All the time we came up short in the postseason, the first round loss, the second round losses, all the bumps we took along the way.
23:48Same thing with the Celtics. They you go all the way back to that disaster of the two thousand eighteen nineteen season and and all the way through, you know, from the failure in the bubble to what they did in twenty twenty two.
24:01The Miami series from a year earlier, like everything they've just been they were hardened over the years to get them to a place where they could be the team that went sixteen and three in the playoffs last year.
24:13I'm telling you, they're only going to be beat by another team that has gone through that.
24:18Like I look at Oklahoma City as being maybe the biggest threat to the Celtics next year because they took some lumps in the postseason this year.
24:26They got beat in the second round. They reacted accordingly. They went out and got the guys they need. They got a rebounder and I say a Hartenstein.
24:33They got another defensive player. Now it's Caruso. They're going to have problems out of the Western Conference because that is still going to be a dogfight every single year.
24:40But if that team can find its way to the NBA finals, that team to me is a threat.
24:45I look at the sixes on paper and yeah, on paper, they look like the biggest threat to Boston in the Eastern Conference because Paul George is a legit three and D guy and beads an MVP and Max is going to take another jump, did some nice things off the bench.
24:58We have no idea how that team's going to play. No idea what it's going to look like when they all get together and start to play next year.
25:05The Knicks, they make a bunch of moves. Great. Got more Nova guys playing in New York, but I think there's like four all-star appearances in that starting lineup, but Julius Randall's got like three of them.
25:16So like there's I still look at the Celtics as having a huge opportunity to put together the kind of mini dynasty that was thought to be dead in the modern NBA.
25:31So OKC is exactly who I was going to bring up and I agree with you. I think that team is winning within the next few years.
25:36I don't know that it's next year. I think they may take some of those lumps like Denver and some of these other teams get hardened by that, as you put it, and ultimately win a championship.
25:45And they are so incredibly young and have that litany of draft picks that Presti is accumulated and they can continue to add to that team.
25:52I love the Thunder, big fan of the Thunder. As far as Philly goes, you know, and look again for those watching Syracuse hat, I'm a Cuse guy, I'm a Carmelo Anthony guy.
26:02But I just think that when I see Joel Embiid and Paul George, I see two Carmelo Anthony's guys that are going to have, you know, Hall of Fame kind of careers, but don't actually win the big one.
26:14And I realize you're not a winner until you are. That's just kind of the way it works. But I just don't see those guys, especially together, ever getting over the hump.
26:23But when it comes back to Boston and this window and this, you know, potential for a mini dynasty here, not to take this away from Tatum.
26:31I know he's been our focus and it is a star led league and a lot of people believe that in today's NBA coaches really don't matter.
26:40But I keep kind of coming back to Joe Mizzoula and what a psychopath he is in the best possible way.
26:47You know, the fact that he is already in his downtime, you know, like this guy doesn't have to speed up watching movies.
26:53He's, you know, sitting here and thinking about new schemes and new plays and altered systems and ways to win the next championship.
27:01That is his focus. Basketball and Jesus anyway, our life, obviously for Joe Mizzoula and family.
27:07And so when you consider him as, again, a mid thirties guy being the leader of this team is how, I guess, do you see he and and Tatum Brown in particular and all of those complimentary parts?
27:23Everybody, including Sam Houser, now running the back for next year. How much of a figurehead to all of this is Joe to now winning multiple titles?
27:32Look, I think the head coach is incredibly important. That may seem like an easy thing to say, but like it's if coaching superstars was easy, there would be a lot more coaches with championships on their resume.
27:48Like coaching a team with this kind of star power requires more than just X's and O's. It requires an ability to connect to players.
27:57And Joe Mizzoula, I think, has done that. Maybe some of that is the fact that he's sort of from their generation.
28:04Like he's a little bit older, but not that much older than some of the guys on his roster younger than Al Horford on his roster.
28:11So I think his ability to connect to them has been just as important as the kind of X's and O's in-game coach that he is.
28:22And he was a dramatically improved in-game coach last season. I think we'd all agree on that.
28:26Like, how many times did did we talk about Joe's weird use or non-use of timeouts during his first year?
28:35Well, we didn't really talk about that quite so much in the second year. And I think Joe benefited greatly from having a coaching staff that made sense on his bench.
28:44Like when Joe took over E-May, it kind of bunch of guys there that were really E-May's guys.
28:49And I'm sure some of them thought they should have been elevated to head coaching spot when E-May exited that team.
28:54You fast forward a year and you've got Charles Lee on that bench. You've got Sam Cassell on that bench.
29:00You've got Jeff Van Gundy out there as a sounding board for him as a coaching or a team advisor.
29:06I think he learned a lot because of the changes that were made to that bench.
29:12And look, I think that's something to watch for next year. Charles Lee is gone. Jeff Van Gundy is gone.
29:18Are they going to replace some of that brainpower on their bench and in their front office with people that Joe can work with?
29:24I think that'll be interesting to watch. But I do think that he has gone from what I think a lot of people believed was a liability after his first year to one of the strengths of this team after his second year.
29:39Yeah. And sometimes continuity helps, right? You know, the fact that you have the same guys on the team, you know, for the most part, you have Drew and KP obviously coming in is a different thing.
29:49But having continuity helps, having the same voice kind of helps. And so that's why I look at what the Celtics just did and say, like, you know, there's so much movement in the NBA all the time.
30:00And the content machine feeds off of this movement. Right. It's it's it's I mean, you know, this is maybe better than other people do.
30:11A lot of traction and content views and clicks comes in the offseason from all these things about, hey, look at who might go this way and this way, this way.
30:20I know our company, our network sees a huge uptick in views during that sweet spot of the offseason where free agencies kicking off and the drafts getting ready to go.
30:31You know, this is kind of boring offseason now. Yeah. Yeah. Now, especially for the Celtics, it's like they're done. We're all set. There's no major moves to make. We're good.
30:39But essentially, what I love to see is the fact that continuity can really mean something.
30:45And as you look at the NBA landscape and I'll talk even internationally, like that game against Sudan, that the exhibition game where they jacked up a bunch of threes and try and egg in that game and almost beat USA in the process.
30:58Do you see the Celtics in their team building philosophy having impact not just only on NBA basketball, but international basketball as well?
31:09Well, I hope so when it comes to USA basketball, because I believe that USA basketball, regardless of what happens during this Olympic cycle, they need to make substantive changes.
31:23Like, I don't think you can rely on, you know, throwing together the best talent the Americans have to offer every four years and expecting to win. That just doesn't happen anymore.
31:33I mean, like, think about, like, how many NBA games would South Sudan win? Like three? Like, honestly, like, and that's not an insult.
31:43And I wrote about South Sudan and how Lewell put that team together. Same thing with Germany, like Dennis Schroeder, Daniel Tice and the Bogner brothers.
31:55Like, how many NBA games would that team win? Like nine? Ten? Like, I don't know.
32:02Threaten the Detroit Pistons.
32:03Yeah, I mean, really. Like, so it's not about the talent that you have on the roster. It's about the talent that that the chemistry, the talent has playing together and the passion with which they play for.
32:19And you can look, you can tell watching these games like South Sudan plays with a passion that eclipsed USA basketball.
32:26Germany plays with a passion that eclipses USA basketball. Like these guys on the USA roster, not that they don't want to win. Of course they want to win. It's why they're there.
32:34It's why they're spending their off seasons, you know, traveling the globe to play for USA basketball.
32:40But they've been kind of drilled from a young age to believe that NBA championships are what matter.
32:47Like we're here to win NBA championships. Everything else is secondary.
32:51It's not the case in these international games. Like they think the FIBA World Cup is awesome.
32:54Like these guys, they want to win on the international level just as much or more that they want to win at the NBA level.
33:02I think for USA basketball and Grand Hill in particular, like after this is over, I think you've got to find 12 to 15 guys, maybe 18 guys to work on injuries that want to play for your team for the next three summers.
33:15Like you need guys playing international games next summer, year after that, World Cup, into the Olympics in LA in 2028.
33:23You're not going to get the best players to do that. Iris Anthony Edwards already said something to the effect of like, I'll be back next Olympics if you want, but probably not for like a World Cup cycle.
33:31Like you need guys that want to play every offseason. And maybe you're talking about just a handful of all-stars, some good rotation players on the international stage.
33:40If you get those types of guys playing consistently together, they're going to have a lot of success. They're probably going to go into the Olympics next summer as the favorite.
33:49So that's where I think Celtics team building, that's where it can have a place on the international stage.
33:56As far as the NBA goes, it's already there. Like Oklahoma City has built its team in the image of the Celtics.
34:03Like the Thunder, the only guys they go out and chase are guys that can do like five different things.
34:10They want guys that can shoot, pass, play multiple positions, shoot the three ball. Like that's who they've put together.
34:15Everybody on that roster. I saw a video of like Isaiah Hartenstein at the Thunder facility jacking up threes.
34:20Like he's going to become a three-point threat at some point this year. That is who the Celtics are.
34:25They put five guys on the floor that shoot threes, five guys on the floor that can guard four different positions.
34:31They have become the model for the modern NBA team. Oklahoma City is nipping at their heels, following it.
34:39But believe me, there will be other teams out there in the years to come that are looking at Boston saying, we want to build our team the exact same way.
34:46So one thing that I find really interesting this offseason, I'm curious as to your perspective, obviously, is the fact that, as I mentioned before, they're running it back.
34:57A lot of the time in sports in general or even in business, when a major organization is going to be sold, there's something of a tear down, a strip down, selling off pieces to make it more, I don't know, sort of clean it up to make the books look better as far as offloading it.
35:19When it comes to the Celtics, it's quite the other way right now. I mean, they're just going out and spending money like candy with the future perspective of, well, whatever, who cares?
35:29It's not our money. Somebody is going to inherit all of these contracts. It becomes their problem at some point in time.
35:35And the Celtics, well, they're not spending like fans or anything like that, but it's so rare, I feel like, that a front office in its behavior and a fan base in their wants are so directly unified.
35:51I mean, fans have been screaming for months on social media, extend Derek White, give Sam Hauser a new contract.
35:59And a lot of us were sitting around saying, yeah, I mean, that'd be great, but are they really going to do it? Are they really going to spend what it takes to bring these guys back?
36:06And sure enough, I mean, everyone, your top nine is coming back next year.
36:12Were you at all surprised by the spending behavior of ownership right down to Stephenson, Zarin, and Austin Ainge and everybody else involved to where we are now where they said, hey, I mean, we were a powerhouse last year. Let's do it again.
36:27No, I wasn't surprised for two reasons. One is that ownership has always told Brad Stevens that if there's a guy that you believe can help us win a championship, go get him, we'll pay for him.
36:45But if it turns out he can't help us win a championship, well, we're not going to spend money to clean up your mistakes.
36:54I was kind of reporting on this a couple of years ago when the Celtics were looking at Jakob Pertl back when he was available via trade.
37:01They had a hole at center, and that's when that messaging first kind of came to me.
37:06Like, you know, like, well, you want to go trade for Jakob Pertl and you know what he's going to want as a free agent the next summer, go ahead and do it.
37:14But if you trade for him and he sits on our bench, we're not going to pay him.
37:17Like, you're going to wind up losing at least one, maybe two first round draft picks for nothing because we're not spending money on guys that are not going to help us win.
37:25All the guys that Celtics spent money on this summer helped them win, played vital roles in helping them win.
37:31The Tatum extension obviously was a no-brainer. You give him that every day of the week, twice on Sunday.
37:36Derek White, big contract, but not the biggest for sure. And Derek White certainly is invaluable to what this team does when it comes to winning a championship.
37:45And Sam Hauser, yeah, that's a big number when you factor in the tax penalties that go with it, but not this season, right?
37:52Like, he's still on that short change contract for this season.
37:55So you're looking at guys that you're going to have to pay down the road where if you did need to break this team up for whatever reason, Sam Hauser in that contract, very tradable.
38:08Peyton Pritchard on his contract, very tradable. Derek White, if you wanted to deal him, very tradable.
38:14So you're not putting yourself in a position where you are going to be stuck with a whole bunch of guys making a whole bunch of money that nobody wants.
38:23You can deal some of these guys for shorter term contracts, draft capital, if you really want to.
38:29And that's where I think the pressure comes with the Celtics.
38:33I think regardless of who owns this team, if the Grousbeck family winds up selling it end of this year as they plan to do, or even if they keep owning it for a year or two down the line,
38:45if they can, if they win championships, I think they'll be able to keep this group together.
38:50And whoever the ownership group is, we'll spend the money.
38:53But if they come up short, and I'm even talking about a finals appearance, if they don't win a championship, that's when I think they put some of these roster pieces in peril.
39:02Like, look, maybe Sam Hauser might be in peril anyway, because who knows if Bailey Sherman can wind up being Sam Hauser 2.0.
39:09Maybe if you can get a cheaper alternative in a first round pick, that might be the direction they elect to go anyway.
39:17But if they win the 2025 NBA championship, then I believe this exact same group will be back again the following year.
39:28If they don't, then there's the potential to see one or two guys peeled off to reduce some of this tax burden.
39:36Yeah, and there's quality coming back if you peel some of those guys off.
39:39I mean, the one thing that was very striking to me, Sam Hauser signs a contract.
39:43I'm like, wait, Duncan Robinson got 90 million like four years ago.
39:46What is this is going to be cake.
39:49I mean, it's not like Sam Hauser is a scrub.
39:51The guy holds up pretty well defensively for himself and shoots the lights out.
39:55And, you know, now that he's gotten some NBA finals experience under his belt, he's an extremely valuable commodity.
40:02So it's not like, like you said, they can't get out of these things.
40:04And today's in today's game, like one of the advantages Celtics have in getting guys on team friendly contracts is that because of the uncertainty with the free agent landscape, if you offer guys good deals, they're going to take the burden to hand more maybe than they used to.
40:21Like maybe 10, 15 years ago, there was perhaps more motivation to go to free agency and try to get the bag.
40:27And there's still some of that motivation out there.
40:29Brandon Ingram right now in New Orleans is kind of dealing with some of that where he wants that full max and the Pelicans and maybe other teams as well aren't motivated to give it to him.
40:38But now you're seeing a lot of extensions out there, you know, with with a year left on their contract where guys are saying, you know what, maybe there's a chance if I have another great year, I can get even more.
40:50But there's also a chance that, you know, the market could crater a little bit.
40:54You know, teams don't have the kind of flexibility they used to because these new tax rules.
40:58This is a really good deal.
40:59I'm going to take it.
41:00And it becomes a win win for both player and team.
41:03Chris, before we let you go, as you know, we talked about a little bit.
41:08The Paris Olympics are upon us, obviously.
41:10And I'm curious as to your expectations for Team USA for everybody.
41:15Obviously, it's gold or bust.
41:17I certainly recognize that.
41:18But are we going to see games that are as close as they have been in some of these international friendlies?
41:25Are they going to flip that switch, turn it on and and it'll be a romp?
41:29And also, you know, who is their biggest challenger?
41:32Certainly from a betting perspective for anyone out there in that space, I I've seen a lot of people betting on France to medal, for instance, and, you know, be the the non USA winner.
41:43You know, you can bet on who's going to win the thing outside of the Americans.
41:46The heavy favorite France is the one that keeps getting the bulk of the attention.
41:49How do you look at the top of the board there?
41:52You know, I'd like to say as objectively, analytically as possible, I have absolutely no idea what's going to come happen.
41:59These Olympics, honest to God, like I don't.
42:01These are like this exhibition season has offered no insight whatsoever in predicting what this team is going to look like.
42:10Like, you know, I watch the game in Vegas where they kick the crap out of Canada, who is right there as a gold medal favorite, along with the US.
42:19They beat Serbia by what, like 26 over in Abu Dhabi.
42:23Then they go to London and need to Herculean efforts from LeBron James to pull out games against South Sudan and Germany.
42:30So I have no idea what this team is going to look like.
42:33I think there are some variables here, right?
42:34Like they've had about or will have close to a week of practice time to continue to try to build chemistry, maybe develop some new wrinkles in that offense.
42:44One thing I noticed watching the US team is like you watch some of these other teams play.
42:47There's a fluidity to which they play.
42:49And it goes back to what we were talking about with years spent playing together.
42:53The US, it's a lot of high pick and roll.
42:55It's a lot of high to mid post ups.
42:57It's a lot of isolation basketball.
42:59Even if you have the kind of talent the US team has, that's not enough.
43:04Like that's not going to work consistently on the international stage.
43:08The other factor is Kevin Durant, who's arguably the greatest player in USA basketball history, still very much an elite score.
43:15This was described back in Vegas, guys, his injury as a minor calf injury that won't keep him out very long.
43:21Well, fast forward two or three weeks later, and we're still not sure if this guy's going to be able to play on Sunday when they take on Serbia.
43:28If Kevin Durant can play and be the guy we've seen in previous Olympic cycles, I think they're once again a clear favorite to win a medal.
43:37If he can't, any one of these teams can beat them.
43:40There's probably a half dozen or more teams that can knock them off.
43:44The group play, which looked like the easiest part of the US's bracket with South Sudan in there and Serbia, all of a sudden got a little bit more complicated than it looked like maybe a week or so ago.
43:56So I don't know.
43:59I just don't know.
44:00I mean, I'd still put my money on the US.
44:02I still think they are a favorite to win the whole thing.
44:05But if they win a gold medal, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't medal at all.
44:13I wouldn't be surprised.
44:14That's how much I think latitude there is with this team this year.
44:19Check out Chris's article again in Sports Illustrated on Sports Illustrated's website.
44:24It's online.
44:25It's on Twitter.
44:26It's everywhere.
44:27It's on the SI feed.
44:28It's on Chris's feed.
44:29The Celtics retweeted it when Al Quote tweeted it.
44:32Al Horford talking about the champ Jason Tatum.
44:35It's a very easy article to find, and it's a fun read.
44:38It is called The Celtics Define Greatness in Any Era.
44:41Mannix, I always enjoy when you hop on with us, man, and obviously enjoy the Olympics the rest of summer.
44:46I'm sure we'll talk to you again as we get closer to the season.
44:49Any time, guys.
44:50All right.
44:51Well, I hope everybody has a great weekend, especially if you are listening on Friday.
44:55Make the most of it.
44:56And yeah, enjoy the Olympics.
44:58It's going to be nonstop for the next month or so.
45:00It's going to be a lot of fun.
45:01For MValenti, I'm Adam Kaufman, obviously from Mannix.
45:04Rate, review, subscribe, all that good stuff.
45:06We'll talk to you again next week.