EPA Administrator Michael Regan Testifies Before Senate Committee On Environment & Public Works

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Transcript

00:00:00 With that in mind, good morning, everyone. I am pleased to call this hearing to order.

00:00:05 Today we welcome EPA Administrator Michael Wiegen back to our committee to discuss the

00:00:12 President's fiscal year 2025 budget proposal for the Environmental Protection Agency.

00:00:19 As my colleagues will attest, I oftentimes say that budgets are about priorities, and

00:00:24 they are. I believe that the President's budget prioritizes a vision for the future

00:00:29 of our Nation in which every American can enjoy the health and economic benefits of

00:00:34 cleaner air and land as well as cleaner water.

00:00:37 The President's $11 billion budget request for EPA represents a 20 percent increase over

00:00:43 the amount Congress approved for fiscal year 2024. That may seem like a significant increase,

00:00:50 and I agree that it is. But make no mistake, after years of funding cuts and freezes, the

00:00:56 Agency needs additional investments if it is to better protect the health and well-being

00:01:02 of our constituents across America.

00:01:05 Those of us who care about the future of our planet, and I believe that is every one of

00:01:08 us, want an EPA that has the resources that it needs to take common sense steps to combat

00:01:14 the greatest threat that we face today on our planet, and that is our climate crisis.

00:01:19 Nearly every day we see the signs of a planet in crisis, wildfires ravaging our land, polluted

00:01:25 air filling our lungs, extreme heat gripping many of our communities and much, much more.

00:01:31 Scientists here and around the world have repeatedly sounded the alarm. They say we

00:01:35 are running out of time to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and slow climate change for

00:01:40 the health of our planet and our people.

00:01:42 In 2023 alone, the United States experienced 28 climate disasters. Let me say that again.

00:01:49 In 2023 alone, the United States experienced 28 climate disasters. A friend, you ask him

00:01:56 how he is doing, he says, compared to what? So we will just say, well, compared to what?

00:02:01 For comparison, the U.S. experienced only seven climate disasters in 2013, only seven

00:02:08 in 2013. In 10 years, the number of climate disasters has literally quadrupled.

00:02:14 And on top of that, the 28 disasters that our country experienced last year in 2023

00:02:19 cost American taxpayers a boatload, a total of $93 billion. That is billion dollars with

00:02:25 a B. And to put that figure into perspective, it is more than eight times the size of EPA's

00:02:31 proposed budget for 2025.

00:02:34 Fortunately, the President's proposed budget would enable EPA to continue its work to address

00:02:39 the climate crisis and reduce greenhouse gas emissions, all while protecting public health

00:02:45 and supporting economic growth.

00:02:47 Now, how might that be accomplished, one might ask. That is a good question.

00:02:53 First, the President's budget request would provide the agency funding it needs to continue

00:02:57 to implement the historic investments made by Congress over the last few years, including

00:03:02 the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure law, which was literally crafted in this room,

00:03:08 as well as the Inflation Reduction Act.

00:03:11 Through the passage of those laws, Congress has directed EPA to do more than ever before

00:03:16 in order to tackle climate change, address pollution, protect our communities, and grow

00:03:21 our economy.

00:03:23 Thanks to these laws, we have empowered EPA to help build a clean energy economy that

00:03:28 is creating millions of jobs across America and lowering our unemployment rate to near

00:03:34 record lows, while also lowering energy and health costs for households throughout America.

00:03:40 Just last month, Administrator Reagan announced the awardees that will distribute some $27

00:03:47 billion for clean energy projects through the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund. And as

00:03:53 you may recall, a number of our colleagues on this committee worked hard to create this

00:03:58 program in the Inflation Reduction Act.

00:04:01 The Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund is going to fund national networks of community financial

00:04:07 institutions that will finance climate and clean energy projects across America, particularly

00:04:12 in low income and disadvantaged communities.

00:04:16 Thanks to the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, homeowners throughout America will be able

00:04:20 to make repairs and investments in order to make their homes more energy efficient, and

00:04:25 businesses owners will have access to the financing that they need should they choose

00:04:30 to decarbonize their buildings or install solar panels, just to name a few examples.

00:04:36 And through the bipartisan infrastructure law, we invested in EPA's work to clean up

00:04:40 legacy pollution from contaminated brownfields and Superfund sites, as well as to improve

00:04:46 solid waste management and recycling programs while addressing lead and PFAS in our drinking

00:04:52 water.

00:04:54 Just one of many examples, last year, Standard Chlorine Superfund site in northern Delaware

00:04:59 received a million dollars from the bipartisan infrastructure law to remove hazardous chemicals

00:05:04 from that site and protect public health.

00:05:06 There are many, many more examples like that across the country.

00:05:10 I look forward to continuing to work with you we look forward to continuing to work

00:05:14 with you, Administrator Regan, to support EPA's implementation of these critical laws,

00:05:19 which will benefit our communities for decades to come.

00:05:23 Beyond its implementation of the bipartisan infrastructure law and the Inflation Reduction

00:05:27 Act, EPA has also been busy acting, as you know, to develop and finalize rules informed

00:05:33 by cutting-edge scientific research to remove dangerous pollutants from the water that we

00:05:39 drink and the air that we breathe.

00:05:41 EPA's new climate and clean air regulations will result in billions of dollars in climate

00:05:46 and public health benefits across our country, all while encouraging America's innovation

00:05:51 to help industry meet stronger standards on reasonable timelines.

00:05:56 And by releasing new rules to implement laws like the Toxic Substance Control Act, the

00:06:02 Superfund Law, and the Safe Drinking Water Act, EPA is addressing some of the most pressing

00:06:08 environmental public hazards that America faces.

00:06:12 I would add that I think each of those laws that I just mentioned really had their beginning

00:06:17 genesis right here in this room.

00:06:20 The President's budget will support the agency's continued work to implement these rules to

00:06:26 benefit our health, our planet, and our economy.

00:06:29 Administrator Reagan, I start off by saying you have a tough job. I think we all have

00:06:34 tough jobs, but they are also really important jobs. And I think we are headed, for the most

00:06:40 part, in the right direction, thanks in no small part to your leadership at EPA during

00:06:46 an especially challenging time in our Nation's history.

00:06:49 We look forward to hearing your testimony today. We welcome you.

00:06:53 Before we hear from you, I want to hear from our Ranking Member, Senator Capito, for her

00:06:57 opening remarks. Senator Capito.

00:07:00 Thank you, Chairman Carper, and welcome, Administrator Reagan. It's nice to see you again. I saw

00:07:04 you last week. I get to see you twice in a month.

00:07:08 The Chairman started off his remarks with the same way I would start my remarks, and

00:07:12 that's you can tell a lot about policy priorities of an administration by reviewing its budget

00:07:17 and the actions that it takes. This is where our statements will diverge.

00:07:22 Many of the concerns I will raise today are the same ones I raised last year, and I'm

00:07:26 frustrated not to have seen more course correction by the agency over the past years. If anything,

00:07:33 the EPA has accelerated the pace of economically crippling, unrealistic regulations that it

00:07:38 has issued, with the total regulatory costs imposed by the Biden EPA now approaching a

00:07:43 trillion dollars. Chief among my concerns is the group of six regulations that make

00:07:49 up the EPA's electric generating unit or power sector strategy.

00:07:54 Your intent with these regulations is pretty clear. Impose new, costly federal mandates

00:07:59 in a short period of time to make continued investment in baseload power plants uneconomic.

00:08:05 This is round two of the Obama Administration's war on coal, except the Biden Administration

00:08:10 is issuing even more regulations at an even greater cost than President Obama did. And

00:08:16 this time, the war is not just against coal, but also against natural gas and American

00:08:21 manufacturing.

00:08:22 By issuing the rules individually, the EPA has tried to hide the total cumulative costs

00:08:28 to businesses and the American people of its power sector strategy. But their collective

00:08:33 potential harm of them is, for me, daunting and real.

00:08:37 The agency's rules threaten the availability of reliable, affordable electricity at a time

00:08:42 when Americans' pocketbooks are already being hit by inflation, worsened by this Administration's

00:08:48 policies.

00:08:49 During each of the rulemakings, energy and reliability experts sounded the alarm about

00:08:54 the damaging effects each of the rules could have on our grid. At the end of last year,

00:08:59 the North American Electric Reliability Corporation identified the six power sector rules under

00:09:05 development as having, quote, "the potential to influence generators to seek deactivation,

00:09:12 despite a projected resource adequacy or operating reliability risk," end quote.

00:09:17 The EPA has made half-hearted attempts to claim it has addressed reliability concerns.

00:09:23 Last year, at the same time as the EPA released the final so-called "good neighbor" rule,

00:09:28 the agency announced a joint Memorandum of Understanding with the Department of Energy

00:09:33 to coordinate to ensure reliability is not harmed by the agency's regulatory actions.

00:09:38 The EPA touted how the MOU would provide a robust and durable framework for continued

00:09:44 interagency coordination and consultation on electric reliability issues at a time of

00:09:50 significant dynamism in the power sector.

00:09:53 I do thank the agency for responding to an oversight letter I sent asking about the Memorandum

00:09:59 of Understanding. In that response, however, the EPA stated that it has held a total of

00:10:04 three meetings with NERC and regional transmission organizations and independent service operators.

00:10:11 Three meetings, that's it, in just over a year.

00:10:14 The letter confirms that this initiative is little more than window dressing and not a

00:10:17 genuine attempt to address the root of the EPA's self-created reliability problem.

00:10:24 Demand for base load power from data centers, AI, and the forced transition to EVs is quickly

00:10:31 rising and projected to balloon, and the EPA regulations will cause the base load power

00:10:36 supply to shutter.

00:10:39 It is not rocket science to see the problem. Demand is going up and supply will be going

00:10:44 down.

00:10:45 And electric reliability is not the only area where the agency's regulations are ignoring

00:10:50 reality.

00:10:51 I have repeatedly said that we need the EPA to finalize reasonable drinking water standards

00:10:56 to protect Americans from exposures to PFAS, including PFOA and PFOS.

00:11:03 But after taking three years, which I thought was way too long, to develop the standards,

00:11:08 the standards that the EPA ultimately released raised more questions.

00:11:12 The agency has set extremely low parts per trillion standards that do not align with

00:11:17 levels that other countries have set.

00:11:19 It lacks robust scientific support and did not fully consider the financial strains for

00:11:25 compliance, particularly for rural and historically disadvantaged communities.

00:11:30 And the strains will only be worsened by the recent CERCLA designation.

00:11:34 You know, the EPA had a real opportunity here in the PFAS space to set durable science-based

00:11:39 standards to remedy a real environmental concern.

00:11:43 I would have been strongly supportive of a drinking water standard similar to the Obama

00:11:47 administration's health advisory level.

00:11:50 And addressing PFAS through other environmental statutes prior to finalizing CERCLA hazardous

00:11:55 substances designations would have mitigated the unintended consequences that EPA's approach

00:12:01 will have on local water systems, airports, landfill operators, and other passive receivers.

00:12:05 And we've had at least one and maybe two hearings that have expressed the concerns about this.

00:12:14 I'm disappointed that the EPA chose to make regulatory decisions based on the most extreme

00:12:18 voices in the debate rather than finalize sound and practical regulations.

00:12:24 Foundational environmental laws such as the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act are based

00:12:28 on the principle of cooperative federalism.

00:12:31 Typically states lead in managing environmental protection within their borders while the

00:12:35 EPA provides support and only steps in when the state does not act.

00:12:40 But the Biden EPA has not followed that framework in a number of cases, including the so-called

00:12:45 good neighbor rule that I've already mentioned.

00:12:48 Despite federal court of appeals repeatedly stopping this rule from going into effect,

00:12:53 the EPA has not recognized the legal failings of the rule and quite the opposite actually.

00:12:58 Because in January, the agency chose to double down on executive overreach and proposed to

00:13:03 add five more states to its illegal regulation.

00:13:06 Recent actions by region three of the EPA in my home state present another especially

00:13:12 troubling example of the agency's disregard for state's authority.

00:13:16 After a year of closed door negotiations without even notifying our West Virginia regulators,

00:13:22 the EPA announced a consent decree with activist environmentalist groups to impose total maximum

00:13:28 daily loads, TMDLs, on 11 streams in West Virginia.

00:13:32 Lastly, and you and I talked about this at last week's hearing before the Appropriations

00:13:37 Committee, I am very concerned about the risk of waste, fraud, and abuse as the EPA manages

00:13:43 the unprecedented $41.5 billion in the Democrats' so-called Inflation Reduction Act.

00:13:52 The EPA has announced plans to abrogate all of this funding for its largest IRA program,

00:13:58 the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund or Green Bank, which amounts to $27 billion between

00:14:04 now and the end of September.

00:14:06 I would note that $27 billion is nearly three times the total amount of appropriations the

00:14:12 EPA receives each year.

00:14:14 It's an astronomical sum of money.

00:14:17 I fear the EPA will make a lot of mistakes in the rush to get this money out.

00:14:22 Your response to me, I'll go off script here, your response to me last week was that you're

00:14:27 simply granting this money down to eight different entities across the country.

00:14:34 That said to me, well, they're the ones who are going to be responsible for the waste,

00:14:38 fraud, and abuse.

00:14:39 I think it's the EPA's responsibility and we need adequate oversight by an Inspector

00:14:44 General.

00:14:45 So on that, I will turn it back to Chairman Carper.

00:14:48 Thanks, Senator Capito.

00:14:51 Administrator Regan, welcome back to the Environment and Public Works Committee.

00:14:57 You're recognized to proceed with your statement when you are ready.

00:15:01 Are you ready?

00:15:02 Yes, I am ready.

00:15:03 Go right ahead.

00:15:04 Yes.

00:15:05 Thank you.

00:15:06 Thank you, Mr. Carper and Ranking Member Capito and members of the committee.

00:15:10 Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the bold vision laid

00:15:13 out by the U.S. EPA's proposed fiscal year 2025 budget request.

00:15:19 We recognize our partnership and open dialogue with Congress is invaluable in order for EPA

00:15:24 to carry out its mission to protect public health and the environment.

00:15:27 Over the last year, we've been hard at work at EPA.

00:15:30 Under President Biden's leadership, my agency has finalized protections that will bring

00:15:34 100 million people cleaner and safer drinking water from PFAS.

00:15:40 And we've worked hard to right many of the historic wrongs communities have faced for

00:15:43 generations.

00:15:44 Through our critical rulemaking, we've banned the last remaining kind of asbestos used in

00:15:49 our country and we've issued final technology-based standards that will eliminate more than 6,000

00:15:54 tons of toxic air pollution from chemical plants, reducing elevated cancer risk for

00:16:01 those living near these facilities by 96 percent.

00:16:04 EPA is committed to protecting public health and the environment for all American people.

00:16:10 But more than just the powerful health impacts we are undertaking, my agency is also working

00:16:14 hard to implement the historic laws you've passed in President Biden's Investing in America

00:16:19 agenda.

00:16:21 President Biden's Investing in America agenda has not only directly invested in communities

00:16:25 nationwide, but it has generated nearly $700 billion in funding for private sector manufacturing,

00:16:31 and clean energy projects, protecting our planet and enhancing our global competitiveness.

00:16:37 I was pleased to join Senator Markey in Boston last August to speak about how the Inflation

00:16:42 Reduction Act's Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund is addressing climate change head-on while

00:16:46 unlocking billions of dollars in private sector investment to lower energy costs, improve

00:16:52 public health, and create good-paying jobs.

00:16:55 Together, President Biden's Investing in America agenda and EPA's fiscal year 2025 budget

00:17:01 request will continue to invest in environmental actions that will promote cleaner communities

00:17:05 and produce economic benefits for years to come.

00:17:09 Last August, during my Journey to Justice tour, I joined Senator Sullivan in Alaska

00:17:13 to spotlight the environmental justice concerns of Alaska Native tribes.

00:17:18 We met with tribal leaders and heard firsthand about the challenges facing the community,

00:17:22 including climate impacts and adaptation, food insecurity, and water infrastructure.

00:17:27 There he and I announced, along with Senator Murkowski, $150 million in funding from the

00:17:33 President's Investing in America agenda that will help fund projects that benefit federally

00:17:38 recognized tribes across the state.

00:17:41 President Biden's proposed fiscal year 2025 budget request for EPA provides nearly $11

00:17:46 billion to advance key priorities for the American people, including protecting air

00:17:51 quality, cleaning up pollution, upgrading the nation's aging water infrastructure,

00:17:56 urgently fighting the climate crisis, and advancing environmental justice.

00:18:01 Millions of people across our country are still grappling with the effects of poor air

00:18:04 quality, perpetuating harmful health and economic impacts.

00:18:09 In fiscal year 2025, EPA will improve air quality for communities by reducing emissions

00:18:15 from ozone-forming pollutants, particulate matter, and air toxics.

00:18:19 The President's budget includes $1.3 billion to improve air quality for communities across

00:18:23 the country, to reduce exposure to dangerous levels of radiation, and to leverage regulatory

00:18:28 tools and public and private sector partnerships that promote environmental stewardship and

00:18:33 encourage the adoption of cost-effective technologies and practices.

00:18:38 EPA's work to set these standards provides certainty to industry, builds on advancements

00:18:43 in technology, and reinforces market movement that reduces power plant emissions without

00:18:48 sacrificing reliability and affordable energy.

00:18:53 Protecting safe water is the foundation for healthy communities and a thriving economy.

00:18:57 Although substantial progress has been made, many areas across our Nation still face significant

00:19:02 barriers and challenges to achieving this goal.

00:19:06 Aging water infrastructure, the effect of lead pipes, cybersecurity threats to our water

00:19:10 systems, climate change, and emerging contaminants such as PFAS all pose dangerous health risks

00:19:16 to our Nation's water supply and the American people.

00:19:19 EPA's budget request includes a total of $101 million for two EPA grant programs dedicated

00:19:25 to remediating lead contamination in drinking water.

00:19:29 From investing in clean air to cleaning up contaminated land and water, there is no shortage

00:19:34 of important work that needs to be done.

00:19:37 Members of the Committee, EPA is up for the task.

00:19:40 We are eager to work with all of you to deliver for our fellow Americans and to secure our

00:19:45 Nation's global competitiveness, but we need your support.

00:19:49 The fiscal year 2025 President's budget continues the historic progress and investments made

00:19:54 by the Biden-Harris Administration and positions EPA to advance our vital mission of protecting

00:19:59 public health and the environment.

00:20:01 Thank you for the opportunity to be here today to submit testimony for the record, and I

00:20:05 look forward to our continued partnerships and your questions.

00:20:08 Thank you.

00:20:09 [Mr. Connolly] Administrator Regan, thank you for that statement, and thanks for joining

00:20:12 us today.

00:20:13 I appreciate your leadership, and thank you for taking on a really tough job.

00:20:15 And our thanks to your family for sharing you with all of us.

00:20:19 It was about three and a half years ago, I think, they sat there right in the front row

00:20:22 and said they were willing to share their husband, and in the case of your son, their

00:20:28 dad.

00:20:29 And it is a sacrifice for them, and we appreciate their service, too.

00:20:32 [Mr. Regan] Thank you for that.

00:20:33 [Mr. Connolly] I have a couple of questions I want to lead off with.

00:20:36 One of them is a question dealing with the general budget.

00:20:40 And I am going to ask some questions, Senator Capito will follow me.

00:20:44 Senator Stabenow was here earlier, and if she shows up right away, that she would succeed

00:20:49 Senator Capito and then Senator Kramer.

00:20:52 And if he is not back, then Senator Ricketts is on the on-deck circle.

00:20:58 There we go.

00:21:00 All right, first question.

00:21:03 After years of declines in funding and staffing, EPA has begun to recover from the effects

00:21:08 of diminished resources over the past few decades.

00:21:12 For most of its existence, EPA's budget has not kept pace with inflation, while Congress

00:21:18 has steadily added to its responsibilities.

00:21:21 EPA needs more people.

00:21:23 They need additional funding to fulfill their critically important mission, which is reflected

00:21:28 in the President's proposed budget.

00:21:30 Here is my question.

00:21:32 How would the additional funding the President has requested help this agency, your agency,

00:21:38 fulfill its mission to protect public health and the environment while growing the economy

00:21:44 and jobs?

00:21:45 Well, thank you for the question, Senator.

00:21:46 And it is critical.

00:21:48 I think in order to have a viable, strong partnership with our states, we need to be

00:21:53 able to provide technical assistance and demonstrate that partnership in our regions.

00:21:57 More than 50 percent of this budget will go to our regional staff to provide that technical

00:22:02 assistance.

00:22:03 But we need resources to continue to deal with building our capabilities in the areas

00:22:09 of emergency response, whether it be the wildfires in Maui or the train derailment in East Palestine.

00:22:16 We're continuing to see these disasters that we're having to respond to, so we need to

00:22:19 build our emergency response capabilities.

00:22:23 We need to ensure that the safety of chemicals that are needed to propel our electric vehicles,

00:22:28 our semiconductor industry continues to move forward.

00:22:32 And listen, we want to continue to administer these congressionally directed spending assignments

00:22:38 all across the country, such as the $4 million to the City of Wilmington for sewer stormwater

00:22:43 separation.

00:22:44 So with those resources, we're going to continue to build that capability to not interrupt

00:22:49 the economy, but also provide the technical ability so that we can all compete at the

00:22:53 Federal and State level.

00:22:54 All right.

00:22:55 Thank you.

00:22:56 My next question is, through the Inflation Reduction Act and the bipartisan infrastructure

00:23:01 law, much of which was authored in this room, this committee made historic investments to

00:23:08 tackle the climate crisis and make our communities more resilient at the same time.

00:23:13 EPA's fiscal year 2025 budget builds on those historic investments and reaffirms the administration's

00:23:19 commitment to tackling climate change with the urgency that the science demands by dedicating

00:23:25 $3 billion to climate-related programs.

00:23:28 Here's my question.

00:23:31 Mr. Reagan, how important are the investments provided by the Inflation Reduction Act, the

00:23:38 bipartisan infrastructure law, and the President's budget for reducing U.S. emissions to head

00:23:42 off the worst of climate change?

00:23:45 Why do these investments matter?

00:23:47 Well, these investments are critical to preserve both the economy and the environment.

00:23:53 If we are able to leverage the historic resources that we received from the bipartisan infrastructure

00:23:59 law and the Inflation Reduction Act, we are able to marry those financial incentives with

00:24:07 the statutory and regulatory obligations that we have.

00:24:09 So we're seeing a significant infusion in technological advancements to help curb those

00:24:15 emissions.

00:24:16 But in bill, we're seeing a significant level of resources to harden our water infrastructure,

00:24:22 increase our water cybersecurity, to make them more resilient for the changing climate

00:24:27 and the international threats that we're facing there.

00:24:30 So coupling those investments with our regulatory obligations creates a win-win opportunity

00:24:36 for global competitiveness.

00:24:38 My last question before yielding to Senator Capito is, EPA's recent efforts to cut emissions

00:24:43 of greenhouse gases and toxic pollutants from power plants are expected to deliver significant

00:24:48 public health and climate benefits.

00:24:51 Despite these benefits, some focus intently on potential impacts to grid reliability and

00:24:57 related compliance schedules.

00:24:59 My question, Administrator Regan, is I understand that EPA has carefully considered those potential

00:25:05 impacts in the development of its new regulations.

00:25:08 Could you just briefly describe for us the mechanisms and the rule to ensure grid reliability

00:25:14 is maintained?

00:25:15 And second half of my question is, what actions will EPA take in the future to avoid challenges

00:25:20 to grid reliability?

00:25:21 Go right ahead.

00:25:22 Well, thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.

00:25:25 And I'm happy that you mentioned the public health benefits for these four rules.

00:25:31 The public health benefits are just astronomical in terms of cost benefits.

00:25:36 In 2035 alone, our regulatory impact analysis estimates that we'll have up to 1,200 avoided

00:25:44 premature deaths, 870 avoided hospital emergency room visits, 1,900 avoided cases of asthma

00:25:53 onset, and over 360,000 avoided cases of asthma symptoms.

00:25:58 So the health opportunities are grand.

00:26:01 In carrying out our duties to protect public health and the environment, we teamed up with

00:26:06 the Department of Energy.

00:26:08 We have multiple meetings with FERC.

00:26:11 We engage with EEI, those who are responsible for grid management.

00:26:16 We understand that we're seeing increased demand, but we're also understanding that

00:26:22 there's a tremendous investment from historic legislation into technological advancements

00:26:28 and investments in the grid that will make all of this possible.

00:26:31 We're confident that we have mitigated any grid reliability issues that are current and

00:26:37 that could potentially be a future threat.

00:26:40 Okay, thanks.

00:26:41 Senator Capito, thank you.

00:26:43 Thank you.

00:26:44 Administrator Regan, I want to talk about the power sector strategy and the six different

00:26:49 EPA regulations that you put out all at once.

00:26:53 In a 2022 speech, you said, "If EPA's actions unfold while the rest of the federal family,

00:27:00 leading states, and leading firms in this sector are mobilizing their tools and resources,

00:27:04 then our actions and the clean energy investment signals that they send will work as they should,

00:27:10 hand in glove."

00:27:11 So if I understand your statement by issuing six rules in a short time frame as the same

00:27:16 time the IRA is being implemented, the EPA rules will send clean energy investment signals

00:27:23 to the industry, is that correct?

00:27:26 That statement was intended when I addressed the utility leaders at Sierra Week that we

00:27:33 would issue four rules simultaneously.

00:27:36 That was to focus on wastewater discharge, cleaning up coal ash, focusing on controlling

00:27:41 mercury, and the fourth is reduction in carbon pollution.

00:27:46 What I had talked to the industry leaders about is these regulations have to come from

00:27:50 the agency.

00:27:51 In the past, they have come in staggered ways or in ways that did not work in a sort of

00:27:58 cross-purpose way.

00:28:00 We decided, and I said this two years ago when I worked with the industry, that we would

00:28:04 put out four rules at the same time that have their own unique statutory authority and requirements,

00:28:11 but that they could see the cost associated and make strategic investments, long-term

00:28:16 investments to provide affordable, reliable power.

00:28:18 So you went to six instead, from four to six?

00:28:23 We announced four at the same time.

00:28:26 And now we have six.

00:28:27 We have the Good Neighbor Rule and all that pulled together, correct?

00:28:30 Some of those rules we issued prior to.

00:28:33 You've changed some of your rules.

00:28:34 You said actions wanted to be durable and provide certainty, and you've proposed, as

00:28:43 I mentioned in my opening statement, to add five more states to the 23 covered by Good

00:28:46 Neighbor.

00:28:47 So you're already changing your rules, even though you state that you want to provide

00:28:50 security or certainty.

00:28:52 No, I think when you look at the Good Neighbor Rule, I think there are a number of states

00:28:56 that are actually controlling their emissions and not contributing to states next door.

00:29:02 And so when we think about the Good Neighbor Rule, we are responding to the states that

00:29:06 have said, "You have a federal obligation to protect our citizens.

00:29:11 You also have a federal obligation not to penalize us for doing what we need to do while

00:29:16 other states may not be controlling the emissions."

00:29:17 At the same time, you didn't listen to the state plans, right?

00:29:20 You just went forward and said, "We're going to have a federal plan, and that's it."

00:29:23 All these state plans were pretty much neutered, correct?

00:29:26 No, we absolutely listened to the state plans.

00:29:29 As a former state regulator, I understand this process extremely well.

00:29:33 Still have a lot of colleagues who are serving as state secretaries.

00:29:37 And so, listen, the bottom line is that the federal government has an obligation to exercise

00:29:42 a duty to control pollution.

00:29:45 Sometimes pollution, well, not sometimes, pollution doesn't understand boundaries.

00:29:49 So if there are other states that are polluting neighboring states, to avoid litigation from

00:29:54 those states who have done what they said they're going to do, we have an obligation

00:29:57 to make sure that we protect those states.

00:29:59 Well, I think that's obviously being challenged in the courts and your ability or your actual

00:30:06 right to actually do that.

00:30:07 Let me ask you, I just get so frustrated when I see ... Let's see, right now our power mix

00:30:14 is 60% fossil fuel, 16% coal, 43% natural gas, 18% nuclear, 20% renewable.

00:30:23 The plan that you've put out, the Clean Power Plan, that will basically make every coal

00:30:27 plant extinct because nobody's going to be able to afford to do that on an aging coal

00:30:32 plant.

00:30:33 So those will be gone in the 2030s.

00:30:35 And then nobody's going to build a new one unless they only run it under 40% because

00:30:42 they're not going to be able to meet the demand.

00:30:45 Do you know a US power plant right now that meets the 90% CCUS requirement that you've

00:30:51 put into that bill?

00:30:52 Where is that plant?

00:30:53 I think I want to sort of push back on the notion that this rule is going after coal.

00:30:59 I think when we talk to these utility CEOs, they provided to us their plans.

00:31:06 Some of these coal plants were already going to sunset because they're transitioning to

00:31:09 natural gas.

00:31:11 Some of these coal plants, we do believe, will be able to take advantage of these CCS

00:31:14 technologies.

00:31:15 I've had-

00:31:16 Is anybody doing that now?

00:31:17 Well, I've had a number of visits in states-

00:31:18 Well, the answer's no.

00:31:19 I've been to North Dakota.

00:31:20 I spent time with the governor in Wyoming.

00:31:23 There are utilities that are putting on this technology and beginning to use it.

00:31:28 They're also taking full advantage of the resources provided by the Inflation Reduction

00:31:33 Act, tax codes by the Inflation Reduction Act, to invest in this very technology.

00:31:39 So our timeline does match with the resources currently going to utilities who are investing

00:31:45 in CCS technology.

00:31:46 Okay, so here's another problem.

00:31:49 We had a pipeline in West Virginia, a natural gas pipeline, that goes down towards North

00:31:52 Carolina, the Mountain Valley Pipeline.

00:31:55 We all know what we went through to get the completion of that.

00:31:57 We had to have a presidential signature to get that completed after it had been in and

00:32:01 out of the courts for years.

00:32:03 It's like triple the cost that it originally was.

00:32:06 How in the world can you say that we're going to do CCS, we're going to build pipelines

00:32:12 that are going to carry carbon?

00:32:15 That's not going to happen.

00:32:16 The country's already doing it, and the country's doing it for other sectors of the economy.

00:32:22 Here's where the whole of government—

00:32:23 I would love for you to give me an interstate pipeline that's been recently built that carries

00:32:28 carbon, and then I'll be quiet about it.

00:32:30 Well, there's a pipeline currently being built from North Dakota to Iowa.

00:32:38 When was it permitted?

00:32:39 I'd have to get you those details.

00:32:41 Yeah, a long time ago.

00:32:44 I'm going to stop here.

00:32:47 Thank you.

00:32:48 Before I recognize Senator Stabenow, who I believe is next in line, I'm going to ask

00:32:52 unanimous consent to submit for the record materials describing forthcoming carbon capture

00:32:57 projects across our nation, demonstrating that the administration's policies have enabled

00:33:02 the deployment of carbon capture systems to reduce power plant emissions.

00:33:07 Just last month, I'm told, West Virginia regulators approved one of the largest gas power plants

00:33:12 with carbon capture in our nation, generating millions of dollars of economic benefits for

00:33:17 the surrounding communities.

00:33:18 With that said, Senator Stabenow, good to see you.

00:33:19 Welcome this morning.

00:33:20 Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member.

00:33:25 Thanks so much for holding the hearing.

00:33:27 And Administrator Reagan, it's wonderful to see you, Administrator, again.

00:33:31 And I want to thank you for being here and for all the work you've put into developing

00:33:36 EPA's fiscal year 2025 budget.

00:33:40 And I have to say, from my perspective in Michigan, when I look at this budget, I see

00:33:44 a commitment to a lot of longstanding priorities of mine and the people that I represent.

00:33:51 So I want to thank you for that.

00:33:52 I see increased investment in our water infrastructure, including vital funding to replace lead pipes

00:33:58 and address emerging contaminants like PFAS, the impacts of which Michiganders know far

00:34:05 too well.

00:34:06 And certainly, you don't have to go any farther than Flint, Michigan.

00:34:09 And so we deeply understand the critical nature of health and safety and why that needs to

00:34:15 get done.

00:34:16 I see the recognition of the impacts of the climate crisis and an emphasis on ensuring

00:34:21 that our communities have the resources to address and adapt to new climate realities,

00:34:28 unfortunately.

00:34:29 And I also see robust funding for our Great Lakes, including for the Great Lakes Restoration

00:34:37 Initiative, a program I authored back in 2010, as you know, which serves as the most

00:34:43 important tool we have to restore and protect our Great Lakes.

00:34:46 And I'm so appreciative that this committee reauthorized our bipartisan bill to extend

00:34:52 the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative out now until 2031.

00:34:57 So this is very, very important.

00:34:59 And I do want to say that one of the things that brings the climate crisis home to us

00:35:05 in Michigan is that the Great Lakes are now warming faster than the oceans.

00:35:11 And Lake Superior, our largest, deepest, gorgeous northern lake, is now one of the five fastest

00:35:19 warming lakes in the world.

00:35:21 You never could swim in Lake Superior.

00:35:24 And now you can, which may sound great.

00:35:28 It's not great, actually.

00:35:30 And so thank you for all of that work.

00:35:33 Let me first also ask a question about light-duty vehicle emissions, the rule.

00:35:40 And I express my appreciation for EPA's commitment to engaging with our automakers and autoworkers.

00:35:48 At my request, thank you very much for listening, working with them in developing an ambitious

00:35:54 but achievable final rule for light and medium-duty vehicle emissions.

00:36:01 I've always said Michigan automakers are the best in the world.

00:36:04 There's no question about it.

00:36:06 And I'm glad EPA took their input into account when developing the rule so that they have

00:36:13 the capacity to continue to lead.

00:36:16 So moving forward, do I have your commitment to continue working with our automakers and

00:36:22 autoworkers on the rules that impact them for the future?

00:36:27 Absolutely.

00:36:28 And thank you for your leadership in helping us to establish some of those relationships

00:36:32 and keep that conversation going.

00:36:35 Absolutely commit to working with the automakers and with the unions that are supporting those

00:36:39 automakers.

00:36:40 Great.

00:36:41 Thank you very much.

00:36:42 Let me go on to another strong passion of mine, which is E15 and our biofuels industry.

00:36:52 I want to thank the EPA for issuing an emergency fuel waiver to allow E15 gasoline, gasoline

00:36:58 blended with 15 percent ethanol, to be sold in the upcoming summer months.

00:37:05 Can you speak to how enabling the year-round sale of E15, as you have permitted in both

00:37:12 2022 and 2023 through similar waivers, can help protect consumers against fuel supply

00:37:21 shocks by reducing reliance on imported fuel?

00:37:27 And as we look ahead, what will be the impact of EPA's recent final rule related to State

00:37:34 waivers?

00:37:35 Well, this is another opportunity for me to thank you and your staff for helping us to

00:37:41 navigate what was contentious but ended up being a great situation.

00:37:47 Yes, we did issue the emergency waiver for summer of 2024, as we have done in 2022 and

00:37:53 2023, to ensure that our domestic producers can compete on the biofuel side, but also

00:38:00 to begin to reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

00:38:04 We have worked on satisfying that waiver request for eight States.

00:38:09 And for fiscal years 2025 and beyond, those waivers will be permanent for those States

00:38:15 to use E15 throughout the summers.

00:38:18 So that gives those eight States a level of certainty for future investments to up that

00:38:23 production of biofuels so that we can continue to keep our prices low but be globally competitive.

00:38:30 Thank you so much.

00:38:31 I mean, this really brings us between EPW and the Agriculture Committee, where we see

00:38:37 the coming together around issues related to lower price for consumers, addressing a

00:38:42 cleaner environment, but also jobs, a lot of jobs, in particularly rural America through

00:38:49 our bioeconomy.

00:38:50 So I appreciate your working with us on that.

00:38:53 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:38:54 Thank you, Senator.

00:38:55 Senator Stabenow wears a number of hats, as my colleagues know, and one of those is as

00:39:00 Chairman of the Agriculture Committee.

00:39:01 And I want to just say on behalf of all of us a big thank you for the support in making

00:39:06 sure that legislation dealing with regenerative agriculture, which actually focuses on agricultural

00:39:14 policies.

00:39:15 It could be crop rotation.

00:39:16 It could be a variety of other things.

00:39:18 But ways that would enable the farmers in this country to actually do good things for

00:39:23 our planet, at the same time an economic model that provides more money for them in their

00:39:28 pockets at the end of the day.

00:39:29 So it's called regenerative agriculture, and we applaud your support for those policies.

00:39:36 Thank you so much.

00:39:37 Senator Kramer, welcome.

00:39:38 Well thank you.

00:39:39 Let me just follow up real quickly with that and thank Senator Stabenow for her leadership

00:39:42 as well, but please let's get a farm bill done before you retire.

00:39:45 Please, let's get that done.

00:39:47 Okay, good.

00:39:49 Thank you.

00:39:50 We need production agriculture to feed a hungry world.

00:39:52 Okay, I'm gonna pick, I'm gonna pass through mats for now, and go right to where you and

00:39:57 Senator Capito left off, and just speak a little bit and ask some questions about carbon

00:40:02 capture.

00:40:03 First of all, the pipeline you're referring to from Iowa to North Dakota takes, is designed

00:40:08 to ultimately take CO2 captured from ethanol plants from the corn belt and take it to North

00:40:14 Coast geology which is suitable for carbon capture and storage, and even better yet,

00:40:18 enhanced oil recovery, and who wouldn't want more of that?

00:40:22 So it's, but it is not yet permitted.

00:40:25 I don't know that it's finished in any of the states.

00:40:27 It's a hard slog.

00:40:28 We'll see if that happens.

00:40:29 Secondly, though, Mr. Administrator, what's interesting to me is you referenced in the

00:40:35 rule and in carbon capture storage as a prescription for meeting the standard for coal-fired power

00:40:42 plants, and yet the 90% that was referenced earlier, which is in the rule, has never been

00:40:49 achieved.

00:40:50 And one of the things about best emission standards is it requires adequately demonstrated.

00:40:57 The illustration that EPA often uses is a SASC power plant that has carbon capture on

00:41:04 it that captures, after years of fine-tuning, 65 to 70%.

00:41:10 It looks to me like 90% is a setup for failure, that the goal is to shut down coal, to go

00:41:14 after coal, to you, Senator Capito's point.

00:41:18 When you prescribe a solution that can't be adequately demonstrated or isn't adequately

00:41:23 demonstrated, it looks to me like an impossibility by design.

00:41:27 The second thing I would say about the, the, the, or the Supreme Court was very clear in

00:41:33 the, in the West Virginia case that you can't prescribe outside the fence line.

00:41:39 And it seems that if CO2, which has to be piped to geological formations able to take

00:41:45 the CO2, can be hundreds of miles away, that that's by definition outside the fence line.

00:41:51 So how do you have a durable rule in the face of the Supreme Court's decision that you have

00:41:55 to stay within the fence line?

00:41:58 I think on that latter point, the, the Supreme Court indicated that you could not take credit

00:42:04 for actions that are occurring outside of the pipeline or the fence line, excuse me.

00:42:08 When you look at this technology that will be on site of the facility, it is the facility

00:42:13 that is reducing those emissions.

00:42:16 Our folks have looked very carefully, and I want to say we are not attempting to be

00:42:20 queued or step outside of the Supreme Court's ruling, right?

00:42:23 We're not having programs that are designed to try to get reductions outside and get credits

00:42:28 from outside that fence line.

00:42:30 We are solely focused on technologies that perform on the facility themselves.

00:42:37 So the disposal of the CO2 is different than, than solving the emissions issue.

00:42:42 I think that will be debatable, will certainly be litigated.

00:42:45 I would hate to see millions and millions of more federal dollars and ratepayer dollars

00:42:50 to, to once again turn back the EPA when they are stepping outside, not just the fence line,

00:42:56 but outside their, their authority, which is what I believe to be the situation.

00:43:00 I actually have another question about just how, whether this is even productive, um,

00:43:07 the, in particularly in 2.0, because the rule sets what I think is an arbitrary 20 per,

00:43:12 20 percent annual runtime limit for simple cycle natural gas plants.

00:43:18 Realizing that other than natural gas, the only other fuel that's not, that's not nuclear,

00:43:23 that's 24/7 is coal.

00:43:26 And so the only way to back up unreliable, intermittent energy sources like wind or solar

00:43:33 is to have, you know, these, these simple cycle natural gas combustion turbines.

00:43:38 But if they're only, if they can only be run 20 percent of the time before then you meet

00:43:41 a threshold of, of rulemaking that is prohibitive financially.

00:43:47 Every, every utility is going to have to have five single cycle or simple cycle gas plants

00:43:54 to back up the unreliable energy, the clean energy.

00:43:57 I don't see that as a cost savings.

00:43:58 That looks to me like unnecessary, redundant investment.

00:44:02 Can you explain, I mean, are you at, has anybody considered that this might actually be counterproductive?

00:44:07 We looked at that and I think the way you're describing it, and this rule applies to future

00:44:13 natural gas, which is why we set aside existing, so we wanted to avoid the problem you just

00:44:18 laid out for existing sources.

00:44:19 But when we look at future natural gas plants and in our conversations with the industry,

00:44:24 for those who are building these future gas plants, they are looking at both the simple

00:44:28 cycle option, but they're also looking at the CCS option.

00:44:31 And so these are direct results from conversations that we've had with many in the, in the industry.

00:44:37 What I would point to that I think is a rub is not if we should do some of these things,

00:44:43 but the timeframes associated with it.

00:44:45 So the, the, the desire to pursue the technologies and the way to do this and looking at the,

00:44:50 the transition, we've had a lot of very positive conversations with the industry.

00:44:55 I think when you get into, is it too stringent on the percentages or looking at a timeline,

00:45:00 that's where the real heart of the debate is.

00:45:02 And so that's why I, I get a little bit nervous when, when, when people attempt to undermine,

00:45:09 undermine what's happening in Wyoming or North Dakota, places where we are proven out.

00:45:14 I just met with a CEO just early this week.

00:45:17 There are investments, significant investments going into carbon capture and storage.

00:45:21 Right now they're leveraging tax credits from the Inflation Reduction Act.

00:45:24 So we're arguing more over time and stringency, not whether we should do this or how.

00:45:29 Yeah, but the final rule is pretty prescriptive in both of those things.

00:45:32 And quite honestly, I mean, going back to Matt's, which I said I was going to pass over

00:45:36 and I, I promised Mr. Chairman that I'll wrap up here and probably come back.

00:45:40 But all of this looks to me like you'd like, you know, we're heading very quickly, very

00:45:46 quickly in a transition to no fossil fuels.

00:45:49 And I'm just thinking maybe it'd be a good idea to have a, an experiment.

00:45:52 Let's just turn off all fossil fuels for a week and see how it goes.

00:45:56 Because I have a feeling that while you and I are long gone after all of this stuff kicks

00:46:00 in, that that's the reality some people are going to have to deal with.

00:46:03 And I just economically, competitively, it damn sure isn't going to make us more competitive

00:46:07 in the global marketplace.

00:46:10 We need to be more realistic.

00:46:11 We'll get to another round in a little bit.

00:46:13 Thank you.

00:46:14 Senator Cormier, thank you for those, for those questions.

00:46:17 Senator Cardin, welcome.

00:46:18 Thank you.

00:46:19 My neighbor.

00:46:20 Administrator Regan, welcome.

00:46:21 It's nice to have you here.

00:46:23 Thank you.

00:46:24 I want to deal with one aspect of the infrastructure initiatives that we've had that deals with

00:46:30 affordability of water to consumers who have to pay water bills.

00:46:36 Today, about one out of every three consumers are challenged on affordability of water.

00:46:43 And working with Senator Wicker, we included a rural and low income water assistance pilot

00:46:50 program in the legislation that we passed.

00:46:55 The challenge is that it is not funded because we need to have the report from the EPA as

00:47:02 the basis to moving forward with this.

00:47:05 The program which was passed has a sunset of 2026.

00:47:09 So if we don't get started soon, it'll be over before we can get started.

00:47:14 So can you just tell me where we are in regards to the study under the EPA and whether we

00:47:20 can anticipate having that report in a timely way so Congress can consider funding the pilot

00:47:26 program in order to get this started?

00:47:29 Absolutely, Senator.

00:47:30 Thank you for your leadership and focusing on this and the partnership with your staff

00:47:34 and Senator Wicker's staff.

00:47:36 Bottom line is we'll have it done this summer.

00:47:38 We recognize the urgency of the time frame and so we'll have that report to you all,

00:47:43 to Congress this summer.

00:47:44 Thank you.

00:47:45 I'm glad we have a specific time.

00:47:47 I just make one other point on this.

00:47:51 Local authorities that are responsible for setting water rates, the rate payers are stressed

00:47:57 and alternative sources are helpful but not enough to deal with the issue.

00:48:03 So affordability is becoming more and more urgent with our aged infrastructure.

00:48:07 So I'm pleased to see we'll have that report this summer.

00:48:10 I hope it'll be in time for us to act during the appropriation cycle.

00:48:14 Let me move on to the Chesapeake Bay.

00:48:17 There's hardly anything that goes by that I don't mention the Chesapeake Bay and I want

00:48:21 to thank my colleagues for their support.

00:48:23 We have increased the authorization for the Chesapeake Bay program and the resources in

00:48:27 the Chesapeake Bay program.

00:48:29 Under Senator Stabenow's leadership, we've gotten help under the Department of Agriculture

00:48:33 and we've gotten help from other of our programs.

00:48:38 There is a committee that you chair that has not been reconstituted recently which is the

00:48:49 that coordinates the federal agencies, the Federal Leadership Committee.

00:48:54 I understand in conversations with Senator Van Hollen, we both have expressed to you

00:48:59 the advisability of reconstituting that committee with your leadership as chair considering

00:49:06 that we're reaching 2025 which is the next plateau on the commitments made by the states

00:49:15 for what they can do in reducing the challenges, pollutants in the bay enforced by TMDLs.

00:49:23 So can you just assure us that that committee will be reconstituted or restated in order

00:49:29 to coordinate the work of the various federal agencies?

00:49:32 Absolutely, and thank you for your leadership on just getting historic investments to the

00:49:38 Chesapeake Bay.

00:49:39 We've been digesting all of these historic investments and getting our stuff together.

00:49:44 So we're going to have that meeting reconstituted or that group reconstituted for a fall meeting

00:49:50 and we see it as a huge opportunity to get all of the executives around the table and

00:49:55 be sure that we're pursuing those goals that you and others would like for us to pursue.

00:50:00 Okay, I had the summer for water affordability, the fall for the leadership coordinating committee.

00:50:06 Let's see if I can get something for the winter done.

00:50:10 How are we doing on the lead pipe eliminations?

00:50:14 That was a major part of the Biden administration's initiative in the infrastructure package.

00:50:19 Baltimore has significant problems today on lead pipes, lead poisoning.

00:50:25 Our public schools, many are not connected to water because of the connecting pipes are

00:50:30 still contaminated by lead.

00:50:33 Can you just give us a progress report on how we're dealing with the remedial issues

00:50:38 concerning lead pipes?

00:50:40 Absolutely.

00:50:41 To date, we've made $9 billion of federal funding available for water systems across

00:50:47 the country to focus on lead.

00:50:49 The President and I just announced another $3 billion recently.

00:50:52 I think this year, Maryland is slated to get about $30 million of that.

00:50:57 These resources are transforming communities all across the country, especially cities

00:51:01 like Baltimore.

00:51:02 To date, we've also replaced more than 220,000 lead service lines.

00:51:08 That's since 2021.

00:51:09 This has been a game-chamber changer, a huge shot in the arm.

00:51:14 We appreciate those resources.

00:51:15 Thank you.

00:51:16 It is a very, very high priority for us with older cities, particularly the connectors

00:51:22 between the main lines and users in public facilities such as schools.

00:51:29 Thank you for your leadership on that.

00:51:30 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:51:31 Thank you.

00:51:32 Senator Cardin, thanks for joining.

00:51:33 Thanks very much for your faithful participation and leadership on this committee.

00:51:38 Thank you.

00:51:39 I think Senator Ricketts, you're next.

00:51:41 Thanks so much for joining us.

00:51:43 You probably get the best attendance record of anybody on the committee, except maybe

00:51:47 for Shelly and me.

00:51:48 Great.

00:51:49 Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

00:51:51 Thank you, Administrator Riga, for being here.

00:51:53 As you're aware, on Wednesday last week, I led a bipartisan congressional review act

00:52:00 to block the implementation of your agency's multi-pollutant emissions standards for model

00:52:05 year 2027 and later for light-duty and medium-duty vehicles.

00:52:12 Your agency keeps saying that the final EV mandate rule is less burdensome than the proposal,

00:52:19 but I note the CO2 standard of 85 grams per mile in model year 2032 is exactly the same

00:52:26 as what you originally proposed.

00:52:28 This is an average reduction in the standard of 10 to 12 percent a year.

00:52:33 You're one of the voters that said this is actually not an EV mandate, but how many current

00:52:37 gas, diesel, and traditional hybrid vehicles meet the 85 grams per mile CO2 standard today?

00:52:46 The rule is for 2027 and beyond, and this is based on the projections that the auto

00:52:52 industry are actually making themselves.

00:52:53 So I don't know how many to date.

00:52:56 I just know that the Automobile Association, UAW, and others supported the rule that we

00:53:02 put across the finish line, which gave a lot more credence to plug-in hybrids, biofuels,

00:53:08 traditional fuels, as well as EVs.

00:53:11 So when you say that CO2 goal looks similar, that CO2 goal looks similar because what the

00:53:18 automobile industry gave to us through the comment period is if you actually look at

00:53:22 the penetration of plug-in hybrids, it exceeded what we had budgeted for.

00:53:28 And so that took up that gap in terms of what people anticipated the percentage or level

00:53:33 of EVs to be.

00:53:35 That was automobile industry driven on that point.

00:53:38 But in 2024, to your knowledge, there aren't any gas, diesel, or hybrids that are actually

00:53:45 meeting the 85 grams per mile today.

00:53:47 Is that accurate?

00:53:48 I don't know of any current technology that's doing so, but I could have my staff look into

00:53:54 that.

00:53:55 But this is a rule focused on the future, not today, and so I think that is appropriate

00:53:59 caveat there.

00:54:00 Well, good.

00:54:01 Well, let's talk about the future because chargers are another thing that has to go

00:54:03 along with this, right, whether you're going to talk about a plug-in hybrid or an electric

00:54:06 vehicle.

00:54:08 Of the 147 communities in my state that are classified as cities, 99 don't have a charger.

00:54:13 So you could be in Bloomfield, Valentine, Alliance and be 45 minutes from the nearest

00:54:18 charger.

00:54:19 Nationally, right now, I think the publicly available charging stations is 27 to 1 versus

00:54:24 the number of EVs out there.

00:54:26 The National Renewable Energy Laboratory estimates that 1.1 million public chargers are going

00:54:31 to be needed to be deployed by 2030 to support the administration's goal here.

00:54:36 This means that we're going to need three public chargers deployed every 10 minutes.

00:54:42 Do you and your agency know where are we with regard to getting chargers deployed on this?

00:54:49 Are we on track?

00:54:50 Yeah, I think we are moving forward.

00:54:53 Our rule was designed in coordination with both the investments that are being made by

00:55:00 the Department of Energy from the Bypass and Infrastructure Law and the Inflation Reduction

00:55:03 Act, but also with the metrics and data provided to us by the automobile industry.

00:55:09 So when you look at our rule and the time frame and the levels of stringency, one of

00:55:14 the reasons that both the UAW and the automobile manufacturers supported this rule is because

00:55:20 they believe that it's achievable.

00:55:21 It's a stretch goal, but it's achievable.

00:55:24 And that directly coincides with where we at EPA, DOE, DOT and the private sector believe

00:55:32 the investments of infrastructure will be 2027 to 2032.

00:55:37 You've talked a lot about the manufacturers working with this.

00:55:40 Is part of this conversation what will happen to the price of used vehicles?

00:55:43 I mean, the average EV right now goes for $53,000 compared to what last year was.

00:55:48 Your average low-income family spends $12,000 on a vehicle.

00:55:51 Was the cost of used cars part of this conversation when you're talking to the automakers?

00:55:58 When we look at vehicle cost and our cost-benefit analysis, we take into consideration a lot

00:56:03 of things.

00:56:04 And affordability is one.

00:56:05 And we took to heart what the companies were telling us about used or resale vehicles.

00:56:11 And so what we see with new vehicles, we see a cost savings over time, especially for maintenance

00:56:16 and durability.

00:56:17 And in that resale, you see those costs.

00:56:18 Well, what about the cost of getting directly back at the cost of a used vehicle?

00:56:21 Was that part of the conversations you had?

00:56:23 Like, how much will a used vehicle cost as we progress down the road under your rule?

00:56:28 Well, I'd have to get you those specifics because a used vehicle, I mean, what brand,

00:56:33 what make?

00:56:34 So you did talk about used vehicles, just broadly speaking, though, about what the cost

00:56:37 -- We talked about all of the new vehicles moving

00:56:41 forward and took into consideration what that means for used and secondhand vehicles.

00:56:45 The cost of new vehicles, okay.

00:56:48 Mr. Chairman, I think my timer is blinking here.

00:56:50 Did I run out of time?

00:56:51 I think you've broken the timer.

00:56:55 Did I break the timer?

00:56:56 Okay.

00:56:57 Well, I hope we'll get a second round of questions here then.

00:57:00 I hope so, too.

00:57:01 Thanks so much for those questions.

00:57:02 I think next is Senator Kelly and then Senator Mullen.

00:57:06 Senator Kelly, you're recognized.

00:57:08 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

00:57:10 Administrator Regan, good to see you again.

00:57:12 I want to start by talking about air quality.

00:57:16 Right now in the Phoenix metro area, we're seeing ozone concentrations increase, which

00:57:21 has placed the region into nonattainment.

00:57:25 This is happening as the Phoenix area is becoming one of the largest manufacturing hubs in the

00:57:31 country of microchips, battery technology, and electric vehicles.

00:57:35 These projects not only create great paying jobs, but they're the type of investments

00:57:39 we need to combat climate change and ultimately reduce emissions across the country.

00:57:45 So right now, the biggest impediment to getting some of these projects off the ground is air

00:57:50 quality nonattainment.

00:57:53 Everyone in Arizona is united around finding a solution that allows these projects to move

00:57:58 forward while continuing to reduce emissions in the region.

00:58:03 That includes elected officials at the state, county, local level, and our business community.

00:58:08 That's why before I supported his confirmation, I asked Joe Goffman, your assistant administrator

00:58:14 for air and radiation, to commit to coming out to Arizona to meet with all of our stakeholders.

00:58:20 And I appreciate that he agreed to make the trip.

00:58:23 And when he was in Arizona in March, Administrator Goffman heard about two innovative proposals

00:58:29 developed by Maricopa County to generate emission reductions called Rule 204 and Rule 205.

00:58:37 Broadly speaking, these rules would allow manufacturers to offset new emissions by helping

00:58:42 to electrify mobile sources of emissions, like cars, trucks, construction equipment,

00:58:49 and other vehicles.

00:58:51 Before his confirmation and while he was in Arizona, Administrator Goffman provided me

00:58:56 and my staff with some commitments to making progress on Rules 204 and 205.

00:59:03 But it's been a few months since his visit, so I want to ask you for an update.

00:59:07 So first of all, on Rule 205, after Administrator Goffman visited Arizona, EPA Region 9 provided

00:59:16 Maricopa County with a commitment to conditionally approve Rule 205 if the county committed to

00:59:24 make some minor technical changes.

00:59:28 And last week, Maricopa County sent a letter to Region 9 confirming that they would make

00:59:33 all of the required technical changes.

00:59:35 That means the next step is for the EPA to conditionally approve Rule 205.

00:59:42 So Administrator Regan, can you confirm that EPA Region 9 will now move forward with providing

00:59:50 conditional approval for Rule 205?

00:59:54 I can, yes, absolutely.

00:59:55 And when do you expect that Region 9 will be able to grant this conditional approval?

01:00:00 We anticipate being able to do that this summer.

01:00:03 And can you confirm that EPA will work closely with Maricopa County to ensure that final

01:00:10 approval is granted to Rule 205 within the next year?

01:00:15 Yes.

01:00:17 Thank you.

01:00:18 And on Rule 204, which I'll note was submitted by Maricopa County to Region 9 back in 2019,

01:00:26 to date no action has been taken by Region 9 to approve the rule or even provide feedback.

01:00:32 But during their visit, Administrator -- Assistant Administrator Goffman and Regional Administrator

01:00:37 Guzman committed that after we got conditional approval on 205, we'd then turn our attention

01:00:46 to 204.

01:00:47 So Administrator Regan, will you commit that EPA will, by the end of this year, work with

01:00:52 Maricopa County to decide whether Rule 204 can be approved?

01:00:57 And if not, identify what changes are needed to make the rule approvable.

01:01:03 We can absolutely do that.

01:01:04 We're shifting -- we will be shifting all of our resources from 205 to 204 to get that

01:01:09 done in a timely fashion.

01:01:11 Thank you.

01:01:12 Now, as you may know, EPA issued a finding of a failure to submit a State Implementation

01:01:18 Plan, or SIP, for ozone nonattainment last year.

01:01:24 We now face a deadline to submit our SIP of August of 2024 is the deadline.

01:01:31 And Arizona intends to meet this deadline.

01:01:34 However, because of how long it's taken for Rule 205 to be approved, we may have to submit

01:01:41 our SIP very close to the deadline.

01:01:44 And I understand that it can take some time between when a SIP is submitted to Region

01:01:48 9 and when it's considered received by EPA.

01:01:52 We don't want Arizona to be penalized for passing the August deadline because of an

01:01:57 EPA paperwork processing delay.

01:02:01 So Administrator Regan, will you commit that as soon as the State of Arizona submits its

01:02:07 SIP, Region 9 and EPA headquarters will move as quickly as possible to confirm it has been

01:02:15 received so that sanctions are not imposed on Arizona?

01:02:19 Yes, I can.

01:02:21 As a matter of fact, our staffs are already talking with the State.

01:02:24 We anticipate getting that late June, early July.

01:02:27 So we believe we're on track.

01:02:28 All right.

01:02:29 Thank you.

01:02:30 And, Mr. Chairman, if I could, could I have one more minute?

01:02:34 So I also want to ask you about some exceptional events rules.

01:02:39 And I understand that the EPA established a new air quality standard for a particular

01:02:43 matter earlier this year.

01:02:45 You committed to putting out updated tools to help air quality managers submit exceptional

01:02:50 event demonstrations for days where particular matter emissions exceeded legal limits due

01:02:58 to wildfire.

01:02:59 But I'm concerned this same level of attention has not been applied to ozone pollution caused

01:03:05 by wildfires.

01:03:07 Between 2016, 2015, and 2019, the Maricopa Association of Governments submitted documentation

01:03:13 for 33 days where ozone emissions exceeded legal limits because of wildfire smoke.

01:03:18 But to date, Region 9 has only evaluated the documentation for 19 of these days, and they've

01:03:25 only granted an exemption for three days.

01:03:28 The failure to quickly review or even review at all exceptional event demonstrations submitted

01:03:32 by air quality managers makes it difficult for Phoenix, the region, to develop a plan

01:03:40 to get into attainment.

01:03:41 Administrator Regan, can you explain how the new exceptional event tools for wildfires

01:03:47 and I'm going to ask this for the record because I'm over my time, but can you submit for the

01:03:50 record how the new tools which EPA committed to release as part of the particular matter

01:03:59 rulemaking will assist air agencies in easily submitting exceptional event demonstrations?

01:04:05 So if you could just submit that for the record.

01:04:07 Thank you.

01:04:08 [Mr. Regan] Thank you.

01:04:09 And as Senator Kelly knows, we'll be submitting a variety of a number of questions for the

01:04:12 record following this hearing.

01:04:13 And that will be one of them that will be included.

01:04:14 Thank you.

01:04:15 [Mr. Lynch] And thank you for the opportunity.

01:04:16 [Mr. Kelly] And thank you for the extra time, Mr. Chairman.

01:04:17 [Mr. Lynch] You're quite welcome.

01:04:18 All right.

01:04:19 Senator Mullen, you're recognized.

01:04:20 Welcome.

01:04:21 [Mr. Mullen] Thank you, Chairman.

01:04:22 And, Administrator, honestly, you're hard not to like.

01:04:25 I just don't like the agency you work for.

01:04:28 I think

01:04:29 [Chairman Issa] I think that's a compliment.

01:04:30 [Mr. Mullen] I think you have

01:04:31 [Mr. Kelly] It is a compliment.

01:04:32 [Chairman Issa] That's as close as a compliment you're going to get from this guy.

01:04:33 [Mr. Mullen] For me, it's probably the best you're going to get.

01:04:35 But I and I mean that sincerely because I get the EPA's role, but it seems like the EPA

01:04:41 just constantly looks back at old laws that were passed through the Clean Water Act, the

01:04:45 Clean Air Act, and continue to rewrite them.

01:04:48 And you continue to go after agents or industry over and over and over again and not understanding

01:04:53 actually the ad costs or what it does to downstream.

01:04:56 Now, you say you take the economic impact and you do take that into consideration, but

01:05:00 you don't because we continue to see the ad.

01:05:02 I mean, what Senator Ricketts was just asking about the vehicles, you know, I did some quick

01:05:07 research on it.

01:05:08 I'll let him talk a little bit more about it.

01:05:10 But the ad that is costing, you talk about trying to have, you know, better fuel efficiency,

01:05:15 but yet the rule that you guys put on diesel trucks, which I drive every day by making

01:05:20 us put diesel exhaust fluid into it, it runs our gas mileage down and actually is worse

01:05:26 for the environment.

01:05:27 I mean, you see the stuff and it spills, it crystallizes all over the floor.

01:05:31 You can remove it from a truck, which is illegal.

01:05:33 I understand that.

01:05:35 But you can take it off of a truck and you'll increase your gas mileage by 20, 30, and sometimes

01:05:40 50 percent.

01:05:42 But you guys don't take that into consideration, but you still continue to push that.

01:05:46 And now we have our, you know, the farm industry, which I'm a rancher, we have a cow-calf operation,

01:05:52 and you know, we see protein price going through the roof and it continues to climb.

01:05:57 And we have a hard time finding enough markets to go to right now.

01:06:01 We have the meat packers that are pretty consolidated right now, as we see.

01:06:05 We see the poultry consolidating faster.

01:06:08 For processing plants, we see the pork industry very consolidated.

01:06:13 And yet now the EPA is coming out with new guidelines for ELG.

01:06:18 And by your own admittance, you said that this is going to cause some plants to close.

01:06:26 Is that good for the industry?

01:06:27 Because on the other hand, you said you want to have, you guys have talked about wanting

01:06:32 to have a more resilient meat and poultry and protein supply chain.

01:06:38 How is this new proposed rule that you guys are running towards on your options for ELG,

01:06:43 how is this positive for the cattle market?

01:06:46 How is this positive for consumer when you see protein already spiking at higher prices

01:06:50 than we have ever seen in the history of the United States?

01:06:53 How is this positive for the consumer?

01:06:55 How is this a positive move for the EPA to be making this move right now?

01:06:59 Well, I'll tell you that, number one, I hear you loud and clear.

01:07:03 And we're listening to our farmers and our ranchers as we look at-

01:07:06 Are you though?

01:07:07 Well, we haven't finalized the rule.

01:07:08 And we've taken a look at what we're seeing in terms of these discharges and trying to

01:07:12 eliminate some of the negative environmental impacts from these discharges.

01:07:17 But as we look at the economic-

01:07:18 But hasn't industry did a tremendous job on already changing a lot of their discharge?

01:07:24 I mean, they have gone a long ways in where they were at 50 years ago to where they're

01:07:29 at today, and yet it's still not even kind of good enough.

01:07:33 So are you really listening to them?

01:07:34 Well, I will tell you, you make a very good point.

01:07:36 And when we look at these standards, we do have people, the majority of the people in

01:07:40 the industry are performing, are doing well.

01:07:43 So we're trying to create that level playing field to bring some of those who are not taking

01:07:47 those additional investments to-

01:07:49 So, Administrator, why wouldn't you just work with those individuals by themselves rather

01:07:54 than make it a new rule and affecting the entire industry?

01:07:56 Because this is going to affect the entire industry, and this is going to add a tremendous

01:08:00 amount of cost to every dinner plate and every breakfast plate and every sandwich served.

01:08:05 I mean, we're already seeing prices because of the minimum wage increase in California

01:08:09 where a hamburger at McDonald's is almost not going to be affordable.

01:08:13 In 2013, I literally got- literally people was laughing when I said, "If we continue

01:08:18 down this path before long, you're going to be paying $20 for a hamburger at McDonald's."

01:08:23 Is it so funny now?

01:08:26 Because we're dang near there.

01:08:28 And so this is going to add cost, sir, and you know it.

01:08:31 This is going to add a tremendous amount of cost to protein when you could just work with

01:08:36 a few of those bad apples rather than changing the entire industry on how they're discharging

01:08:41 right now.

01:08:42 Well, the industry is moving forward and updating.

01:08:46 So by law, we have to update our standards that match with where industry is going.

01:08:51 So in order to-

01:08:52 No, they're meeting your standards today and you're moving the goalposts again.

01:08:56 Some of them, many of them are exceeding standards.

01:08:59 Great.

01:09:00 Well, great.

01:09:01 Let them exceed.

01:09:02 But why are you moving the goalposts?

01:09:03 Why do you see the need to move the goalposts?

01:09:04 Because you know, there's no way you can deny this, this is going to add cost to protein.

01:09:12 Yes?

01:09:13 We have to update-

01:09:14 No, no, no.

01:09:15 Is it or is it not?

01:09:16 We haven't finalized it, so I don't know.

01:09:18 You know it's going to.

01:09:19 I don't know the answer.

01:09:20 Is it going to cost the poultry and the meat industry?

01:09:21 Is it going to cost them to upgrade and spend millions of dollars?

01:09:26 The answer to that is yes.

01:09:27 We have to look at the benefits too.

01:09:29 There are a lot of people who are benefiting from the industry actually moving forward

01:09:33 and doing better.

01:09:34 Who is this benefiting from it?

01:09:36 Communities benefit from it.

01:09:37 When you look at the water contamination, communities benefit from it.

01:09:38 You mean these same communities that's going to lose jobs when these industries shut down,

01:09:42 these plants?

01:09:43 We have to balance that.

01:09:46 These same industries, these same communities that you're saying are going to benefit, are

01:09:50 these same industries that's going to lose maybe the largest employer in their community

01:09:54 because they can't afford to make the changes?

01:09:56 We're talking about public health benefits.

01:09:57 I'm trying to figure out where you're saying communities are going to benefit.

01:09:59 We're talking about the people that live in these communities that we recognize do work

01:10:03 in these facilities, but they're also drinking the water, they're breathing the air.

01:10:06 We're trying to balance those public health benefits with the jobs and the economics.

01:10:11 Many in the industry, as you have pointed out, are doing it the right way.

01:10:15 We have to make sure that everybody-

01:10:16 Wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:10:17 Your time has expired.

01:10:18 It's going to be a second round.

01:10:19 Can I have another minute, just like you gave Mr. Gilley?

01:10:21 You can have another round.

01:10:22 Go ahead.

01:10:23 Go ahead.

01:10:24 Go ahead.

01:10:25 Let me just ask this, too.

01:10:27 How do you explain this to the people right now that are struggling to put protein on

01:10:31 the plates for their kids as they speak or their families as they speak now, knowing

01:10:35 that this is going to add cost?

01:10:37 You know this is going to add a ... The industry is predicting this could add 15 to 20 percent

01:10:43 cost to protein.

01:10:46 How can you say this is a positive move for the country?

01:10:52 What I would tell them is we have a farming and ranching federal advisory committee and

01:10:57 a new agricultural office that is advising me specifically on the impacts, the technologies

01:11:02 available, and what this means to their community.

01:11:05 None of them are raising cattle like we do in Oklahoma.

01:11:08 None of your advisories are actually doing that.

01:11:10 They're professionals that work in colleges and universities that have a tremendous amount

01:11:15 of theory, but they've never got crap on their boots before.

01:11:18 I think I will challenge you on that and provide the details.

01:11:21 We do have those who are farming and ranching on the federal advisory committee.

01:11:25 Okay.

01:11:26 You're willing to stay if you're willing to stay.

01:11:28 I'll recognize you for another round.

01:11:30 Thank you.

01:11:31 Senator Markey, welcome.

01:11:32 Good to see you, bud.

01:11:33 Thank you.

01:11:34 Good to see you.

01:11:35 Good to see you, Mr. Administrator.

01:11:38 I like you.

01:11:43 I love your agency.

01:11:47 I was elected.

01:11:48 The time of the gentleman has expired.

01:11:51 I was elected in 1976, six years after the agency was created.

01:11:56 I've served in Congress for 90 percent of the life expectancy of the EPA, and I know

01:12:03 how much longer life expectancy is in the United States today than it was then because

01:12:09 of the EPA.

01:12:10 That's a big benefit for our society.

01:12:14 Mr. Administrator, congratulations on making the historic Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund

01:12:18 awards for the National Clean Financing Network.

01:12:23 When I introduced the National Climate Bank Act and when I worked with Chairman Carper

01:12:27 on this language in the Inflation Reduction Act, I knew this would be a transformational

01:12:32 program, if done right.

01:12:34 You did it right, Mr. Administrator.

01:12:37 I'm leading an appropriations letter to fight for your request on ongoing support for oversight

01:12:44 as well.

01:12:45 This climate bank money is out the door, and it's ready to bring clean power owned by communities

01:12:52 onto the grid, help working families cut their electricity bills, and leverage new private

01:12:57 dollars into projects that will do good for the public.

01:13:04 Is that a priority for your agency going forward, just to make sure that it's up and running

01:13:09 by the end of this year?

01:13:11 It absolutely is, and thank you for your leadership and dedication.

01:13:14 Over 15 years focused on this topic.

01:13:16 We were glad to get it done, loved doing the visit with you in Boston to make the announcement.

01:13:21 I feel really good about this program.

01:13:23 We've consulted with all the experts outside, inside.

01:13:27 We know that this capital will pull billions of dollars of private sector capital off the

01:13:31 sidelines.

01:13:32 So, yes, it's a priority.

01:13:34 We want the oversight.

01:13:36 We're asking for the oversight because we know we have a solid program.

01:13:39 So we appreciate your support on that.

01:13:41 Thank you.

01:13:42 As you know, it was in Waxman-Markey in 2009, but it took Chairman Carper to get it over

01:13:48 the finish line.

01:13:49 A little bit late, but still in time to be able to make a big difference.

01:13:54 Early this year, the Environmental Protection Agency finalized the Clean Cars Rule, which

01:13:59 will help us accelerate towards our climate targets and put the brakes on driver's dependence

01:14:05 on pricey fossil fuels.

01:14:08 I thank my colleague, Senator Ricketts, for talking about the importance of investing

01:14:13 in chargers.

01:14:14 I would love to work with you on that, just to get them out there and make sure that people

01:14:21 have confidence with this range anxiety, which plays a big role in how people view their

01:14:26 ability to purchase a vehicle.

01:14:29 The rule that has been promulgated is estimated to avoid more than 7 billion metric tons of

01:14:36 carbon pollution, equivalent to four times the annual emissions from the entire transportation

01:14:42 sector, making this the single most significant climate rule in U.S. and world history.

01:14:50 So Administrator Reagan, in addition to the climate benefits, is this regulation going

01:14:55 to cut costs for American drivers as well?

01:14:58 Thank you for the question, Senator.

01:15:00 It absolutely has proven that it will cut costs over the duration of this regulation.

01:15:07 I think I want to just say that it is not just me.

01:15:10 These car companies are running $7 million Super Bowl ads to their constituents, saying

01:15:16 the future is hybrid and electric.

01:15:19 What we have done is put together a regulation that coincides with where technology and the

01:15:23 market is going.

01:15:24 So it is not only good for the environment, but it is good for the economy and it will

01:15:28 be good for people's pockets.

01:15:30 Right.

01:15:31 And, again, it is projected to prevent 25,000 premature deaths.

01:15:36 That is right.

01:15:37 Big benefit.

01:15:38 Big benefit.

01:15:39 And also save $6,000 for a consumer over the lifetime of that vehicle.

01:15:44 Last year, EPA selected 17 thriving community technical assistance centers to provide technical

01:15:52 support and grant writing assistance to disadvantaged communities and grassroots organizations

01:15:59 interested in the Inflation Reduction Act's historic new funding opportunities.

01:16:05 And it is called TICTAC, which is easy to understand.

01:16:10 And while these centers were set up across the country, Region 1, which serves Massachusetts

01:16:15 and Rhode Island, still does not have an office in our region.

01:16:21 Administrator Regan, would you commit to working with us to ensure that a center that can partner

01:16:28 with Massachusetts environmental justice groups is stood up in Region 1 by the end of this

01:16:34 year?

01:16:35 I can do that.

01:16:36 I know we are taking a very close look at that and putting those wills into motion.

01:16:41 So, yes, we can commit to setting up that technical assistance resource for Region 1.

01:16:46 That would be very helpful to us.

01:16:49 Administrator Regan, is the recently announced Environmental Justice Clearinghouse another

01:16:53 tool that community organizations can use to understand, track, and win grants from

01:16:59 the Inflation Reduction Act?

01:17:01 Absolutely.

01:17:02 This is a multiagency tool that we put in place that speaks to not just the grant opportunities

01:17:09 within multiple grant opportunities within EPA, but the multiple grant opportunities

01:17:13 that span the entire administration.

01:17:16 This is a sort of fingertip way of getting information on technical assistance and training

01:17:21 and funding opportunities, as well as screening and mapping tools to ensure that these grants

01:17:28 that are submitted are competitive.

01:17:29 Beautiful.

01:17:30 And, Mr. Administrator, when it comes to the power plant regulations, all I can say is

01:17:37 all these new arguments about carbon capture and hydrogen are a very different tune from

01:17:43 what we heard when working on the Inflation Reduction Act.

01:17:47 And I am glad we have seen your strong four new rules.

01:17:51 And I urge utility lobbyists to figure out what hymnal they are singing from.

01:17:57 If CCS and hydrogen are off the table, I will be happy to help my colleagues find a better

01:18:03 use for the power sector's billions in subsidies and support.

01:18:09 But I am glad the administration and you are moving forward with those proposals.

01:18:13 Thank you.

01:18:14 Thank you, Senator.

01:18:15 I can assure you that my conversations with the industry assures me that CCS and hydrogen

01:18:21 are on the table, taking advantage of tax credits and resources from IRA, and that I

01:18:25 and we should ensure that there is a future for those specific technologies.

01:18:30 And they are interested and enthusiastic.

01:18:33 They are interested and enthusiastic.

01:18:35 And as I said earlier, the tension points that are happening are based on timing and

01:18:41 percentages, not whether we pursue it and how we do it.

01:18:44 Thank you.

01:18:45 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:18:46 Senator Markey, thanks so much for joining us and for your good work on a number of these

01:18:49 issues.

01:18:50 Senator Lummis, welcome.

01:18:51 Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.

01:18:55 And Minister Regan, welcome.

01:18:58 Given your background in State government, I really held a measure of hope that you would

01:19:02 lead the EPA with policies that were grounded in reality and in the States and maintain

01:19:09 a healthy perspective of the hardworking American families who work and live under your rules

01:19:14 and regulations.

01:19:15 But that hasn't happened.

01:19:18 People in Wyoming are struggling with rising prices in every area of their lives.

01:19:23 And what the policy prescriptions do and what we see from the EPA and this administration

01:19:30 is a torrent of regulation that you know will lead to scarcity and higher costs because

01:19:38 you're restricting base load energy.

01:19:42 So let's start with the Clean Power Plan 2.0, which forces coal and gas-fired plants to

01:19:49 close down if they don't spend billions of dollars and meet unrealistic targets.

01:19:57 These metrics are not achievable.

01:20:00 Critics and rational arguments have been presented to the EPA, but they are rebuffed.

01:20:05 For this administration, ideology wins at all costs.

01:20:10 And the costs will be great as gas and coal-fired power plants account for around 60 percent

01:20:18 of our nation's electricity at a time when EVs are going to be consuming more electricity,

01:20:25 at a time when cloud computing is consuming more electricity, at a time when artificial

01:20:31 intelligence will be consuming more electricity.

01:20:35 The state of Wyoming abounds with resources to fuel our nation's current and future energy

01:20:40 needs.

01:20:41 Wyoming and our nation are global leaders in clean energy.

01:20:46 So it's absolutely surreal to see the EPA devastate energy production even as energy

01:20:53 demands increase for more data centers, artificial intelligence, and your own EPA -- or excuse

01:21:00 me, EV mandates.

01:21:03 The Supreme Court ruled against the EPA for overstepping its authority on the first Clean

01:21:10 Power Plan, and rightly so, because Congress did not grant the EPA sweeping authority to

01:21:17 regulate the nation's generation and uses of electricity.

01:21:23 So left unchecked, the EPA has the power to destroy livelihoods, annihilate jobs, and

01:21:30 wreck the economy.

01:21:33 And evidently, that is your agenda.

01:21:36 You said so yourself, stating that when -- and now I'm quoting -- "When you get an expedited

01:21:42 facility retirement, that's the best tool for reducing greenhouse gas emissions."

01:21:49 I join many of my colleagues in anticipation that this attack on energy is overturned again

01:21:56 by the Supreme Court.

01:21:59 Now the EPA also just finalized rules to force a transition to electric vehicles.

01:22:05 It's astonishing that the federal government is telling Americans what kind of vehicles

01:22:11 to drive and pushing an agenda that doesn't work outside of major urban areas.

01:22:18 Because with Clean Power Plans 1 and 2, you have exceeded your authority.

01:22:23 Congress did not direct you to mandate electric vehicles.

01:22:28 Wyoming is a rural, high-altitude state of nearly 100,000 square miles with famously

01:22:35 harsh weather conditions.

01:22:38 People in Wyoming frequently drive long distances.

01:22:42 My ranch and my farm are 400 miles apart, and yet they're still in Wyoming.

01:22:49 Their livelihoods depend on affordable, reliable vehicles.

01:22:54 And that means a gas or diesel-powered car or truck or natural gas.

01:23:03 The average EV is over $10,000 more expensive than the average gas-powered car.

01:23:09 And they don't work at altitude.

01:23:11 They don't work when it's that cold.

01:23:14 And they don't work when you can't get them charged because there are no charging stations.

01:23:20 Judging by the numbers, Americans don't want EVs.

01:23:24 EV sales are around 6 or 7 percent.

01:23:28 And dealerships are saying to pump the brakes on electric vehicles.

01:23:33 For the good of the country, pull the plug on this mandate.

01:23:38 Lastly, and I'm just scratching the surface on the EPA's overreach, I will mention PFAS.

01:23:45 All of us value clean drinking water.

01:23:47 That is not the issue.

01:23:49 The EPA's regulatory approach through CERCLA was flawed from the beginning and leaves innocent

01:23:55 parties vulnerable for the cost liabilities.

01:23:59 And I'll tell you, and I know my time's running out, justice and fairness dictate that we

01:24:04 seek a polluter-pays approach.

01:24:07 Instead, EPA's placed the financial burden on little passive receivers like water utilities,

01:24:12 industries, and people who did not create the PFAS substances.

01:24:17 You would force rural water providers and ratepayers to bear those costs.

01:24:22 And they're already feeling the squeeze from the economy and other federal mandates.

01:24:26 In closing, Administrator Reagan, I urge you to consider the real-world individual and

01:24:32 cumulative impacts of these regulations.

01:24:36 By any reasonable standard within constitutional representative government, these go too far.

01:24:45 And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

01:24:47 Thanks for letting me unload.

01:24:49 [Chairman Towns] There's not much to yield back.

01:24:52 We've been visited by a lot of young people in the audience here today, Mr. Administrator,

01:24:59 and great to see all of them.

01:25:01 They have probably the biggest stake in what we're talking about here today.

01:25:04 Are we going to have a planet, are they going to have a planet to grow up on and grow old

01:25:07 on?

01:25:08 And will they have the opportunity to have good jobs to support themselves and their

01:25:12 families as the rest of us have?

01:25:14 So we welcome all of you.

01:25:15 And with that in mind, let me say to Senator Whitehouse, welcome.

01:25:19 It's great to see you.

01:25:20 [Sen. Whitehouse] Thank you, Chairman.

01:25:21 Welcome, Administrator.

01:25:23 What time frame can you commit to for the existing power plants part of the power plant

01:25:30 rule, the existing gas-fired power plants?

01:25:32 [Mr. Whitehouse] Yes.

01:25:33 We're working on that process right now, and we've engaged our stakeholders to start that

01:25:38 formal process.

01:25:40 And so we're going to move as quickly as possible.

01:25:42 [Sen. Whitehouse] Can you commit to any end point at all?

01:25:44 [Mr. Whitehouse] Well, it's too early for me to just throw out a date.

01:25:47 So what I'd like to do is be able to provide you a date that is grounded in the facts of

01:25:51 how the process is going to be designed and going.

01:25:53 [Sen. Whitehouse] We have given you authority to regulate methane emissions, and we have

01:26:02 required in the law that you use, and I'm quoting the law here, "empirical data," which

01:26:09 means that you're supposed to actually measure it, correct?

01:26:12 [Mr. Whitehouse] Yes.

01:26:13 [Sen. Whitehouse] That's what empirical means.

01:26:15 [Mr. Whitehouse] Yes.

01:26:16 [Mr. Whitehouse] Has EPA historically underestimated methane leakage from the fossil fuel sector?

01:26:21 [Mr. Whitehouse] Not just EPA, but I think most have underestimated methane.

01:26:25 [Mr. Whitehouse] But EPA for sure has?

01:26:26 [Mr. Whitehouse] Yes.

01:26:27 [Mr. Whitehouse] And EPA did so because it relied on industry reporting in order to come

01:26:32 to its numbers, correct?

01:26:33 [Mr. Whitehouse] I wouldn't say solely on industry reporting, but I think that industry

01:26:37 reporting informed our measurements, yes.

01:26:39 [Mr. Whitehouse] Yes.

01:26:40 And the result was underreporting.

01:26:43 Now, in 2018, which is 5-plus years ago, EDF first reported that EPA's methane numbers

01:26:54 were too low.

01:26:56 EDF reported likely methane leak numbers that were 60 percent higher than your GHG inventory

01:27:06 numbers.

01:27:07 Two years later, Penn State reported further, as the science developed, and said that methane

01:27:12 leaks were two times higher than EPA was relying on.

01:27:19 Stanford last year has put out its own research showing that methane leakage is likely three

01:27:27 times higher than EPA has been relying on.

01:27:36 One of the things that we asked you to do was to acquire satellite data, and we appropriated

01:27:43 money to do that.

01:27:44 What is the status of EPA's acquisition of satellite data?

01:27:47 Do you presently have access to satellite data for methane leaks?

01:27:52 [Mr. Whitehouse] I do know that we have started a process to acquire.

01:27:57 We are leveraging the acquisition of satellite data from some of our sister agencies like

01:28:02 NASA and others.

01:28:03 [Mr. Whitehouse] Like NASA.

01:28:04 Do you have actual access to satellite data?

01:28:06 [Mr. Whitehouse] I will have to get back to you on that specific timeline.

01:28:09 But what I can say is, and you will see this in the actions that we have taken, as we use

01:28:14 the resources that you have given us and we put out this call for competitions to look

01:28:19 at the best technologies, you will see that satellite data is specified as something that

01:28:25 we want to consider in our acquisition, along with our Federal family, to be sure that we

01:28:30 are all working with the same numbers.

01:28:32 At a minimum, satellite data puts up a pretty good flag for further inquiry about methane

01:28:39 leaks that you can do through drones, aircraft, or on-ground measuring, correct?

01:28:43 [Mr. Whitehouse] Correct.

01:28:44 And are you currently deploying that satellite information to trigger those further investigative

01:28:53 methods?

01:28:54 [Mr. Whitehouse] We are looking at all the options above.

01:28:56 Okay.

01:28:57 I mean, there is a point where looking at it has to end and doing it has to begin.

01:29:00 [Mr. Johnson] I will say you have cited 2018, 2019, 2020.

01:29:03 I think there were a number of years where the agency was prevented from pursuing the

01:29:09 pursuit of climate change gases.

01:29:12 So with the resources that you all have appropriated since 2021 and under this administration,

01:29:18 I will say that we have moved as aggressively as we possibly can and will continue to do

01:29:22 so.

01:29:23 And on the enforcement side, some time ago the administration announced that it was putting

01:29:36 together a methane task force, which as a proposition makes a lot of sense, because

01:29:44 if you have satellite data that points at methane leaks and allows for further investigative

01:29:50 methods to be deployed or, if it is reliable enough, simply pursued on that basis, you

01:29:56 might want to be talking to the Department of Justice about what their capabilities are

01:30:02 with respect to enforcement.

01:30:03 You might want to be talking to the Department of Interior about what they as landlords and

01:30:07 permitors can do to push those leaks.

01:30:15 What is your view right now of that methane task force, how often it meets, how often

01:30:21 your team meet with Interior and DOJ people, whether there is an actual sort of war room

01:30:27 type setup for the task force to be operating through in a cooperative way?

01:30:32 [Mr. Smith] I will say that when the President stepped out in 2021 and cited methane and

01:30:37 the methane pledge as priorities, all of the agencies have been working to focus on this.

01:30:43 When we look at the methane regulation, the most aggressive methane regulation this agency

01:30:48 has ever finalized, that set the new bar for some of the ways we could enforce these actions.

01:30:56 There is a constant conversation and relationship, very close relationship, with the Department

01:31:00 of Justice on looking at how we enforce our regulations.

01:31:04 But with Interior, as well as DOE and others, we have all received resources from the Inflation

01:31:10 Reduction Act.

01:31:11 As we look at how we develop those grants, use the information, use the data and the

01:31:16 technology, we are trying to be sure that we are leveraging all of our resources together

01:31:20 in this whole of government approach.

01:31:21 It does take coordination, but I think the development of enforcement, regulations and

01:31:27 these grant programs is being done in concert with not just DOJ from an enforcement standpoint,

01:31:32 but DOE and Interior and others, as well.

01:31:35 [Mr. Blumenauer] My time has expired.

01:31:37 [Mr. Blumenauer] Thanks for those questions, Senator Williams.

01:31:39 We have been joined by Senator Padilla.

01:31:41 Before I recognize you, Senator Padilla, let me ask unanimous consent to submit for the

01:31:45 record materials, including a statement from our President, on the strength of the United

01:31:51 States economy.

01:31:52 According to that data, over 15 million jobs have been created since he took office.

01:31:59 That is more than the populations of Delaware, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, New Hampshire,

01:32:07 Oklahoma and West Virginia combined.

01:32:11 With today's unemployment rate under 4 percent, the U.S. ties the record for the longest consecutive

01:32:16 monthly streak set in the late 1960s.

01:32:20 It has been under 4 percent now for more than 27 months in a row.

01:32:25 Inflation has been under 4 percent for more than 2 years, and it has fallen by 10 percentage

01:32:30 points since its height in 2021.

01:32:34 I have a friend, they ask him, compared to what?

01:32:38 He will say, compared to what?

01:32:41 So compared to what?

01:32:42 Those are some pretty good numbers.

01:32:43 I yield to Senator Padilla.

01:32:47 Thank you for joining us.

01:32:48 You are recognized.

01:32:49 [Mr. Padilla] Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:32:52 Administrator Reagan, I want to start by thanking you and your staff at the EPA for your collaboration,

01:33:00 not just with my office, but a lot of State and local leaders in California on the many

01:33:05 pressing chemical cleanup, clean water and clean air challenges that we face in California.

01:33:14 You know from our discussions and my many letters to you and to the agency that I have

01:33:19 been consistently focused on how to reduce emissions, especially across the transportation

01:33:24 and goods movement sectors, which is why I am so grateful for EPA's recent rulemakings

01:33:30 on light-duty and heavy-duty vehicles.

01:33:33 I understand they have gotten the attention of some of my colleagues on the committee

01:33:36 on the other side of the aisle.

01:33:38 So I want to ask you, Mr. Administrator, can you take a moment to reaffirm, not just for

01:33:46 me but for my friends on the other side of the aisle, that the final emissions rules

01:33:50 for both light and heavy-duty vehicles do not, in fact, ban conventional combustion

01:33:56 engines?

01:33:57 [Mr. Reagan] They absolutely don't.

01:33:59 [Mr. Cummings] Thank you.

01:34:01 Clear, concise.

01:34:02 [Mr. Reagan] Yes.

01:34:03 [Mr. Cummings] Can you now spend a minute or two and emphasize the benefits of these

01:34:09 rules to communities across the country, not just those in California, but across the country

01:34:15 and the people who live in these goods movement corridors?

01:34:18 [Mr. Reagan] Well, we know that there are over 72 million Americans that live along

01:34:23 these corridors that are disproportionately impacted by these emissions, especially from

01:34:29 our heavy-duty vehicles.

01:34:31 On the HDV side, the final standards will provide over $13 billion in annual benefits

01:34:39 to society.

01:34:40 There are a lot of people that will be breathing cleaner air and living a healthier life because

01:34:45 of these rules.

01:34:46 Again, I think we have done it in a way where we have looked at the technology.

01:34:51 It is not just us.

01:34:53 I think, as I said before, the automobile industry are running $7 million Super Bowl

01:34:58 ads talking about the benefits of these technologies.

01:35:01 So we have aligned our regulations with where technology and the market is going.

01:35:06 And if we don't do it, we will be beholden to China.

01:35:09 We need to have these rules in place, improve our health and our environment, and we need

01:35:14 to manufacture these components domestically.

01:35:16 [Mr. Cummings] Thank you.

01:35:17 And just to underscore a statistic that can get lost on some, I believe you said about

01:35:21 72 million Americans?

01:35:22 [Mr. Lujan] Seventy-two million Americans.

01:35:23 [Mr. Cummings] Live along these goods movement corridors.

01:35:26 That is, again, close to about 20 percent of the national population.

01:35:30 [Mr. Lujan] It is significant.

01:35:32 [Mr. Cummings] So an idea, a policy that can improve the lives, the health, the well-being

01:35:38 of one in five Americans in one fell swoop is hugely consequential.

01:35:44 Now, in addition to all that work, I know and I know you know that we can't stop with

01:35:49 cars and trucks, given the significant pollution stemming from the rest of the freight system.

01:35:55 California's ports, as busy as they are and as successful as they are, along with our

01:36:00 freight system, move the goods that fuel not just the local and regional, but truly our

01:36:05 national economy.

01:36:06 Yet it is California communities that bear the burdens of the poor air quality and the

01:36:10 harmful climate impacts that come with goods movement.

01:36:16 That is why I have consistently called on the EPA, as you know, to do more to reduce

01:36:20 emissions from locomotives and ships and planes and off-road equipment as well.

01:36:28 Now, the EPA and the administration do deserve a lot of credit for launching two efforts

01:36:32 just this past month and a half to do just that.

01:36:37 The administration launched a zero-emission freight corridor strategy to help guide the

01:36:41 deployment of zero-emission infrastructure along freight highways, and you followed up

01:36:47 last month by setting a national goal of a zero-emissions freight sector.

01:36:52 Now, a national strategy encompassing the whole freight sector, including heavy-duty

01:36:57 vehicles, ships, trains and more, will help significantly reduce these harmful impacts

01:37:02 on air quality, climate change and public health, while improving American economic

01:37:09 competitiveness and accelerating job creation.

01:37:11 We have seen it happen in California and want to really scale up.

01:37:15 Mr. Administrator, can you describe what the next steps are that the EPA plans to take

01:37:21 to implement both the freight corridor funding strategy and the national goal of achieving

01:37:26 a zero-emission freight sector?

01:37:27 [Mr. Johnson] Well, I will say, you know, this is a very important topic, and I have

01:37:32 spent time in Georgia, New Jersey, California just visiting with these ports.

01:37:38 This strategy is so important, and it is important that I, along with DOT and many in the Federal

01:37:43 family are working together with the consolidated strategy.

01:37:46 I would say that in addition to that strategy, where we are with the next steps is thanks

01:37:51 to your leadership and the leadership of many in this committee.

01:37:55 We have got $3 billion in grants that we are going to begin to dedicate to these ports

01:38:00 to invest in these technologies and these vehicles and the likes.

01:38:04 Our ports want to be globally competitive.

01:38:06 They know the future is driven by technology.

01:38:08 They have welcomed this strategy and these investments with open arms.

01:38:12 And I think not only are we going to make this country or keep this country globally

01:38:15 competitive, we are going to save a lot of lives and we are going to reduce a lot of

01:38:18 health hospital visits.

01:38:19 [Mr. Davis] Thank you very much.

01:38:21 We have set ambitious goals.

01:38:23 You have visited.

01:38:24 You have invested.

01:38:25 We are setting more ambitious goals.

01:38:27 You are going to continue to visit and I look forward to seeing you soon back in California.

01:38:31 [Mr. Sullivan] Absolutely.

01:38:32 [Mr. Davis] Thank you, Mr. Chair.

01:38:33 [Mr. Connolly] Thanks, Senator Perdue.

01:38:34 I have been joined by Senator Sullivan before I recognize him.

01:38:37 I just want to ask a quick question.

01:38:42 Administrator Reagan, when you were the nominee of this President, you were questioning about

01:38:47 your willingness to visit States, not just the States that are represented here on this

01:38:52 committee, but those who are not represented on this committee.

01:38:56 I had asked my staff to find out how many States you have visited thus far.

01:39:01 I am told that you have made, as of this week, 116 visits, 116 visits to 38 States.

01:39:10 And between you and the Deputy Administrator at EPA, you have visited a total of 45 States.

01:39:20 I think I speak for all of us.

01:39:22 A special thanks for the agreement with you on every single policy that we are discussing

01:39:26 today.

01:39:27 The fact that you have made the time to come to our States again and again is much appreciated

01:39:31 and acknowledged.

01:39:32 So thank you for that.

01:39:33 I want to yield now to Senator Sullivan.

01:39:34 [Mr. Sullivan] Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:39:35 Mr. Administrator, good to see you.

01:39:36 Thank you.

01:39:37 By the way, in terms of States you are visiting, for coming up to Alaska, I know you had a

01:39:38 good visit last summer.

01:39:39 We welcome you back.

01:39:40 I am going to just talk very briefly about the State of Alaska.

01:39:41 I think you have been a great member of the State of Alaska.

01:39:42 I think you have been a great member of the State of Alaska.

01:39:43 I think you have been a great member of the State of Alaska.

01:39:44 I know you had a good visit last summer.

01:39:47 We welcome you back.

01:39:48 I am going to just talk very briefly.

01:39:51 Mr. Chairman, I do want to we had a bit of a contentious exchange last week.

01:39:56 I do want to keep working with your team, your staff, and the minority staff on this

01:40:02 committee to work with my office on that issue we raised.

01:40:06 I haven't gotten any data or anything from your team, but I would like that.

01:40:11 I think I am out of courtesy.

01:40:15 I think I deserve that.

01:40:18 My constituents, there are a lot of people who are watching what your staff was doing

01:40:23 in my State when I was home over the weekend.

01:40:27 Nobody was happy about it.

01:40:28 I am not going to continue that debate, but I do want your staff to come brief me personally

01:40:34 on what they are up to.

01:40:37 But Mr. Administrator, I also want to just touch on one of the issues.

01:40:43 You are not doing it so much, but in this committee I need to do it.

01:40:46 So many decisions that the Biden administration takes, particularly as it relates to Alaska

01:40:51 and the so-called environment, are lawless.

01:40:54 The President two weeks ago announced that he was going to shut down the Ambler Road,

01:41:01 which had already been approved in the EIS, to the Ambler Mining District, one of the

01:41:05 biggest critical mineral districts in the country.

01:41:08 A federal law in 1980 actually mandates that that road be permitted.

01:41:15 I can read you the language.

01:41:16 I am just going to submit it.

01:41:17 This is ANILCA Section 201(b).

01:41:20 I would like to submit it for the record.

01:41:23 Mandates it.

01:41:24 The Biden administration violated that law.

01:41:28 The Biden administration on ANWR, which we got done, I submitted a letter to Secretary

01:41:36 Holland on May 2, 2024.

01:41:38 I would like to submit that to the record.

01:41:41 On ANWR, which we got into law, to have two lease sales required, mandated by the Congress,

01:41:48 in a law.

01:41:50 Secretary Holland just said she was going to ignore those leases, cancel them.

01:41:54 Interestingly, there was a FOIA request, and even the Biden OMB went back to Secretary

01:42:00 Holland saying, "Geez, where do you have the legal authority to do this, Madam Secretary?

01:42:06 Let's send this letter."

01:42:07 The Biden administration is asking her, "You can't do that."

01:42:11 She's doing it.

01:42:12 That's violating the law.

01:42:15 This I'd like to submit for the record.

01:42:17 63 executive orders and executive actions targeting my state, the state of Alaska.

01:42:22 Sixty-three from this administration, singularly focused on Alaska.

01:42:26 Most of them are lawless.

01:42:27 By the way, most of them hurt the indigenous population of my state.

01:42:32 Twenty percent of Alaska is indigenous.

01:42:35 It's a little rich when I keep hearing about the focus of this administration on environmental

01:42:41 justice, helping indigenous communities when they come after my state so much and hurt

01:42:51 the native people.

01:42:53 I'm going to get to that with you, Mr. Administrator.

01:42:56 I do want to ask, West Virginia versus EPA.

01:43:02 Did you read that Supreme Court case?

01:43:04 Yes.

01:43:05 I can't remember.

01:43:06 Are you a lawyer?

01:43:07 No, thankfully.

01:43:08 I was going to comment.

01:43:14 There's not a lot of good lawyers in the Biden administration since they violate the law

01:43:17 all the damn time.

01:43:19 I'll give you a pass on that.

01:43:23 With regard to agency rules, it said the agency must point to a clear congressional authorization

01:43:28 for the power it claims.

01:43:31 This new NEPA rule, I know it didn't come from you, Administrator, but do you think

01:43:35 that that was something that Congress granted the administration authority to rewrite NEPA?

01:43:43 I can't say that I've dove into the NEPA rule.

01:43:47 It's not in our agency, but I trust my colleagues have followed the law.

01:43:53 I do know that we have a part of the NEPA process and we feel comfortable with our part.

01:43:57 I think the lawyers, even the good lawyers and even the non-lawyers, even the bad lawyers

01:44:02 need to reread West Virginia versus EPA.

01:44:04 It's a really important case.

01:44:06 Let me get to something more positive with you.

01:44:08 I really appreciated you meeting with our Alaska Native communities, particularly on

01:44:13 the contaminated lands issues.

01:44:19 You know the whole history there.

01:44:20 You and I have talked about it.

01:44:22 We're working on it.

01:44:23 Senator Kelly and I have legislation that we're trying to get through this committee

01:44:26 and the WERDA bill relating to Indian tribes in Arizona, Lower 48 in Alaska.

01:44:34 We want to authorize the EPA and the Army Corps to enter into an agreement with Indian

01:44:38 tribes and Alaska Native tribes for the purposes of compensatory mitigation for a permitted

01:44:46 activity under the 404 program.

01:44:49 You and I have talked about it before.

01:44:50 I know it came up in that roundtable you had in Anchorage.

01:44:53 Would you support that idea, Mr. Administrator?

01:44:56 Can you work with me and Senator Kelly on that idea?

01:44:58 We'd be happy to provide technical assistance and work with Congress on those ideas, yes.

01:45:03 How about would the EPA support, again, it's kind of the same category.

01:45:07 A categorical exclusion for Alaska contaminated lands programs that comes under NEPA review.

01:45:18 Maybe if that's too quick a question, I can submit that for the record in more detail

01:45:22 to get your answer on it.

01:45:23 I was going to say, let us dig into that.

01:45:24 I'd love for our staff to talk through that.

01:45:26 I know in the President's budget there was a significant amount of money on contaminated

01:45:32 lands cleanup.

01:45:34 But I'll ask you, because I want to be respectful here, for the record, what other resources

01:45:39 or authorities does the EPA need to help clean up these Native lands?

01:45:45 Which remember, the Native people of Alaska got the lands from the feds, 44 million acres

01:45:51 and the biggest land settlement for Native people probably in the history of the world.

01:45:57 A lot of it was contaminated.

01:45:59 We worked together, the Chairman and I, to say, well, a couple years ago, hey, at least

01:46:04 CERCLA doesn't apply.

01:46:06 These Alaska Native groups can't be liable since the federal government came and polluted

01:46:11 land.

01:46:12 But are there other resources or authorities you need to help cleaning up these Native

01:46:18 lands that are contaminated in Alaska?

01:46:20 It's a top priority of mine.

01:46:21 And I know you learned a lot about this when you were in Alaska.

01:46:25 And again, I really appreciate you taking the time to meet with the different Native

01:46:29 groups that were impacted and do the due diligence on this really unjust situation.

01:46:36 Administrator, I'm going to ask you to be brief in your response, and then we're going

01:46:39 to recognize Senator Fetterman.

01:46:42 Thank you for hosting that meeting.

01:46:44 I think you and I and Senator Murkowski announced $150 million going towards some of this cleanup.

01:46:50 There is more that we can tap in both Bill and Ira.

01:46:54 We should talk about how we do that.

01:46:55 Okay.

01:46:56 I'll submit those for the record, more detailed answers.

01:46:59 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:47:00 You bet.

01:47:01 Senator Fetterman, welcome.

01:47:02 Good to see you.

01:47:03 Thanks.

01:47:04 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:47:06 Hi.

01:47:07 Thank you for the opportunity to talk to an expert on all of this.

01:47:12 And I'm in Pennsylvania.

01:47:16 And some people across the nation really doesn't know what a brownfield is.

01:47:24 And a brownfield, would you like to give an exact definition?

01:47:29 Yes.

01:47:31 These brownfields are sites that have been contaminated that are qualified for programs

01:47:37 where we can clean these brownfields up, whether they're abandoned warehouses or gas stations

01:47:42 that typically are blights in our communities, and we can turn them into economic engines.

01:47:48 Absolutely.

01:47:49 Absolutely.

01:47:50 And sometimes they can be smaller that you were referencing, or they can be really large.

01:47:54 They can be a couple hundred acres and everything.

01:47:57 And I'm in western Pennsylvania, and I literally live and I'm surrounded by brownfields.

01:48:04 And at one point last century, that was the engine that really helped shape American society

01:48:11 and was about half of the world's steel output.

01:48:16 And now they were abandoned and they were left really kind of to hold the bag.

01:48:23 And the investments, the proactive kinds of investments on these brownfields have now

01:48:27 allowed struggled communities to emerge from bankruptcy.

01:48:32 And I literally live next door to one, the Cary Furnace site as well.

01:48:38 And it's magnificent.

01:48:39 And now it's actually part of, now it's going to be a national historic site of steel.

01:48:45 It's the last standing example of that kind of a blast furnace.

01:48:51 And those are the kind of investments that help the communities that created so much

01:48:55 of an investment and output for the history of our nation.

01:49:00 And that's one of my priorities here as Pennsylvania Senator is to continue that, because there's

01:49:05 more and more sites like that in Allegheny County, where I live.

01:49:10 But Pennsylvania, it's a story across all of it.

01:49:13 And you run a very large agency.

01:49:18 And I'm not going to throw a lot at you.

01:49:19 I just hope the one thing to take away from that is just how critical brownfield funding

01:49:25 for Pennsylvania absolutely is.

01:49:30 It is a lifeline for communities like Duquesne, like Braddock, like Rankin, like Swissvale,

01:49:37 like West Holmstead, Munhall, all these.

01:49:39 And now, without those kind of investments, those fallow sites would not have had anything

01:49:47 done for 30, 40, 50 years.

01:49:50 And it has really created an amazing impact on that.

01:49:55 So if you have five minutes, that's an opportunity to talk to an expert like yourself, is that

01:50:01 really means everything.

01:50:03 And it's almost kind of somewhat related to my colleague from Alaska, that it's land that

01:50:11 has a lot of great valuable, but it needs a lot of remediation as well.

01:50:17 And those invest in forgotten or communities that were left behind.

01:50:24 And this really is very, very critical.

01:50:27 And if there's anything I can do to be more of a more effective advocate for that, I really

01:50:34 am here.

01:50:35 I would love any feedback on that.

01:50:36 And I want to thank your agency's investments to do that.

01:50:41 And it's not just Pennsylvania.

01:50:42 There's a lot of other de-industrializing some states that we all need those kind of

01:50:47 invites.

01:50:48 So I'd like to, if you have any observations, I cede the time to yourself.

01:50:53 And I thank your administration's work on all of it.

01:50:57 No, I appreciate your laser focus on this.

01:51:00 And we appreciate the resources that we received from the bipartisan infrastructure law to

01:51:04 supercharge this.

01:51:05 I think we've awarded over $250 million towards our brownfields program.

01:51:11 That's the largest in EPA's history.

01:51:13 And just a great example is in Pittsburgh, we work with the state, vacant property, two

01:51:20 gas stations that we converted into affordable senior living with cafes and the like.

01:51:25 We see this as a huge opportunity not to leave any communities behind.

01:51:29 So we'll continue to work with their staff to be sure that we're prioritizing these investments.

01:51:34 But there's a win-win opportunity there, as you've articulated.

01:51:36 Yeah.

01:51:37 Yeah.

01:51:38 And I have a little about 30 seconds left.

01:51:39 And I would just, more, more, and more.

01:51:43 And thank you for those kind of investments.

01:51:44 I just, please, as a former mayor of one of those small communities, I cannot possibly

01:51:49 express how critical those investments are to allow these communities to move forward.

01:51:54 Because without those kind of help, they would be, continue to deteriorate and certainly

01:51:58 not ever be able to prosper and come into a new phase.

01:52:04 So thank you, Mr. Chairman.

01:52:06 Thank you.

01:52:07 Senator Federman, thanks so much for joining.

01:52:09 I think your perspective, I know my perspective as a former governor, informs me in the work

01:52:14 that I do every day.

01:52:15 And I'm sure your experience as a former mayor and, if I'm not mistaken, lieutenant governor,

01:52:22 lieutenant governor as well, and husband, father, all of that helps inform us for the

01:52:26 work that we do.

01:52:27 I have a couple of questions I want to ask and we yield to Senator Capito.

01:52:32 After that, Senator Cramer and Senator Ricketts may be trying to come back and join us for

01:52:35 a second round.

01:52:36 Are you up to that?

01:52:37 Absolutely.

01:52:38 Okay.

01:52:39 Then we do have to repay you over time.

01:52:41 I hope not.

01:52:42 All right.

01:52:43 Here we go.

01:52:44 I'm going to be very hazard-paced, Chairman.

01:52:49 Some days it might seem that way.

01:52:53 I got a couple of questions.

01:52:54 Let me just ask one of them.

01:52:56 I think you recently announced the selections of eight entities to administer some $20 billion

01:53:04 in funding from the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund created in the Inflation Reduction Act.

01:53:10 Take a minute and just explain to people who might be tuning in around the country when

01:53:13 we talk about the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, what are we talking about?

01:53:17 We're thankful for the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund, $20 billion focused on ensuring that

01:53:23 the average American can participate in the low carbon transformation, whether that be

01:53:28 an energy efficient home or appliances, investing in those types of things.

01:53:33 $20 billion.

01:53:35 We worked with the Department of Treasury, HUD, those who specialize in clean energy

01:53:41 financing, underwriting, spent some time with private equity, commercial banking, just to

01:53:46 be sure that as we designed this program, we did it in a transparent way that demonstrated

01:53:51 that the government could put its money where its mouth is.

01:53:54 If we do, can we bring hundreds of billions of dollars of private capital off the sideline?

01:53:59 I believe we have accomplished that.

01:54:01 We created an excellent competition that selected eight grantees that are responsible for leveraging

01:54:08 that capital.

01:54:10 We have a ton of transparency metrics and oversight built into that.

01:54:13 You'll notice, and it was raised earlier, that we have asked for resources in this budget

01:54:19 to continue to do so.

01:54:20 I try to meet as frequently as possible with our Inspector General.

01:54:24 He has indicated that there could be a usage of additional resources there for IRA.

01:54:29 We're trying to oblige that to demonstrate that we want to be as transparent as possible

01:54:33 so that as many Americans as possible can benefit from these investments.

01:54:36 [Mr. Towns] All right.

01:54:38 Thanks.

01:54:39 Let me ask a question about TASCA implementation.

01:54:43 We had a hearing here about, I think, about a year ago with respect to the implementation

01:54:50 of TASCA legislation that a number of us helped write, TASCA's Toxic Substance Control Act,

01:54:57 that has been in effect for a couple of years.

01:55:01 But it was a disappointing hearing.

01:55:04 We basically were very clear that we have a lot of work still to do.

01:55:09 Part of what we heard from the senior staff who was here to speak on the issue was the

01:55:19 resources, human resources that were needed to help do the job simply weren't there.

01:55:25 One of the reasons why we're providing, I think the President is asking for additional

01:55:29 resources, additional people, is in part to be able to do the work that Congress has said

01:55:34 needs to be done with respect to the Toxic Substance Control Act.

01:55:38 But we charged EPA with its demanding responsibilities, also our responsibility to ensure that the

01:55:45 EPA has the appropriate resources to implement TASCA as intended.

01:55:51 Question.

01:55:52 What impacts would the fiscal year 2024 funding levels have on the TASCA program?

01:56:00 And would you please give us a sense of what EPA could accomplish if the agency received

01:56:06 the full budget request from the President for the TASCA program, as well as maximized

01:56:16 revenue collections through the recently updated fees rule?

01:56:19 Yes.

01:56:20 Well, thank you, Chairman.

01:56:22 This is one of the ones that I scratched my head on.

01:56:25 We received small increases to focus on TASCA in 2022 and 2023.

01:56:33 And we more than doubled the number of chemical reviews that we were doing each month.

01:56:37 We were really trying to honor the essence of what Congress asked us to do with TASCA.

01:56:43 I think that with this cut, we're just going to see slower approval of new chemistries,

01:56:49 especially those companies that want to propel the semiconductor, automotive, and battery

01:56:55 sectors.

01:56:56 It's just going to gum up the system.

01:56:57 We need the resources.

01:56:59 We need the body to do so.

01:57:01 Before 2016, before this TASCA revisit that you all championed, EPA was looking at about

01:57:07 a 20 percent rate in these reviews.

01:57:09 TASCA now requires that we do 100 percent.

01:57:12 So in order to keep pace with the economy and moving forward, we need to review these

01:57:17 chemicals each and every month.

01:57:19 And it doesn't make sense to cut that funding now.

01:57:23 Thank you for that.

01:57:24 I have another question or two to ask you, but I'm going to yield to Senator Capito for

01:57:29 any questions that she has.

01:57:31 Great.

01:57:32 Thank you.

01:57:33 Let me ask you, I asked you this in appropriations and mentioned it again, and then it was asked

01:57:38 again about the Green Bank oversight accountability.

01:57:42 Can you give me in specific detail two examples of accountability mechanisms the agency is

01:57:46 developing for these final agreements?

01:57:48 Specifically.

01:57:49 There are a number.

01:57:52 First and foremost, with the Green Bank, there's a transparency aspect to this.

01:57:59 That focuses on basic transactions, underwriting.

01:58:03 It is aligned with most banking protocol.

01:58:07 But these investments must go to recipients that can demonstrate not only a leverage of

01:58:13 capital, but must get specific reductions from carbon or climate warming pollutants.

01:58:19 So when we think about just the level of transparency and the process, it is very clear, it is very

01:58:25 concise that they are held accountable to use the resources that they are given to get

01:58:31 certain reductions according to traditional banking approaches.

01:58:36 So you have, I think you have what, 20 people that are overseeing this, right?

01:58:40 In your . . .

01:58:41 I believe that's . . .

01:58:42 20?

01:58:43 Yes, about 20 individuals.

01:58:45 So they're looking specifically at how people are enumerating carbon reduction and whether

01:58:51 they can leverage by banking standards.

01:58:54 Those 20, which some are term limited because that's the way Ira laid it out, were responsible

01:58:59 for designing and connecting and creating the program.

01:59:03 We now have to do the maintenance and the implementation.

01:59:07 Some of the resources we're asking for is beyond the design phase.

01:59:11 It's really to be sure that during the implementation phase . . .

01:59:13 Right, that's what I'm worried about.

01:59:14 . . . we are very, very transparent.

01:59:16 We've asked for resources for that.

01:59:18 We've also asked for resources for the Inspector General's Office because I see them as a partner.

01:59:22 Well, that was left out of the IRA.

01:59:26 It was put in for Department of Energy but not for EPA.

01:59:30 What we at EPA want to do is be transparent and responsible . . .

01:59:33 Well, that's a correct statement, though, right?

01:59:34 . . . with the resources that Congress has given us.

01:59:36 Right.

01:59:37 Let me ask you about the issue about TMDLs in West Virginia.

01:59:42 This is a specific West Virginia.

01:59:44 I mentioned in my opening statement, they announced the agency was entering into a consent

01:59:48 degree with the Sierra Club to impose TMDL on 11 streams in West Virginia.

01:59:52 Here's what the West Virginia DEP said in their statement.

01:59:56 As the primary regulator of water quality in the state of West Virginia, the West Virginia

02:00:01 Department of Environmental Protection is flummoxed . . . I love the use of that word

02:00:06 flummoxed.

02:00:07 I don't know why I think that's sort of humorous.

02:00:10 Anyway, they're flummoxed as to why it has been kept in the dark regarding a proposed

02:00:15 settlement which had been months in the making.

02:00:17 The department is even more astounded that the EPA has apparently decided, in contrast

02:00:21 to the prior litigation and without any advance notice to the department, not to mount any

02:00:26 kind of defense to the allegations leveled in the plaintiff's complaint.

02:00:30 Do you agree that the agency's decision to keep West Virginia in the dark is troubling?

02:00:35 I absolutely disagree with keeping West Virginia in the dark.

02:00:38 In 2015, the courts stipulated to EPA and the state of West Virginia the results of

02:00:46 that case that we contested.

02:00:48 We have had, collectively, EPA and West Virginia since 2015 to resolve this problem, yet the

02:00:55 agency nor West Virginia could come to a solution.

02:00:58 We're running up against a timeline that a judge has given me.

02:01:02 What our agency did was we entered into the settlement, which we are legally obligated

02:01:07 to do.

02:01:09 We got your letter about extending the comment period.

02:01:12 [Judge Cardone] Which you did.

02:01:13 Thank you.

02:01:14 [K. Townsend] I just have to push back.

02:01:16 I'm a former state regulator.

02:01:18 We would never do anything where we just ice out the state.

02:01:21 2015 to 2024, that's a long time.

02:01:24 [Judge Cardone] They apparently disagree with that.

02:01:27 Let me go to the state regulator thing, back to the good neighbor rule that we were talking

02:01:30 about earlier, where the 23 states developed, and you know more about the technicalities

02:01:36 of this, the state implementation plans.

02:01:39 Two were rejected outright, and then 21 were rejected by you, blanket rejected, on the

02:01:45 same day or exactly the same time when the federal implementation plan came forward.

02:01:50 Did this kind of scenario ever happen to you as a state regulator when you were not regulating

02:01:55 in this state but somewhere else where you had a state implementation plan?

02:01:59 It was rejected and a federal one came right in on top of it.

02:02:02 Isn't the usual way to do it is to work with the state to say, "Your state implementation

02:02:07 plan is falling short here, there.

02:02:09 Let's make adjustments," instead of just outright rejection.

02:02:12 Did this ever happen to you when you were a state . . .

02:02:14 [Chip Frensley] I've never . . .

02:02:15 [Judge Cardone] When you were a state regulator.

02:02:17 [Chip Frensley] I've never been surprised that a state implementation

02:02:21 plan was either at a crossroads or not meeting the expectations of the federal government,

02:02:27 but I've also . . .

02:02:28 [Judge Cardone] No, that's not what I'm asking.

02:02:29 I'm asking, were you as a state regulator ever a party to having a blanket rejection

02:02:34 like this?

02:02:35 [Chip Frensley] Yes, during the last administration on a

02:02:41 whole host of issues, I attempted to work with the Trump administration and we worked

02:02:45 through it.

02:02:46 I mean, irrespective of the party who's in charge.

02:02:47 [Judge Cardone] Well, right.

02:02:48 This isn't the option.

02:02:49 They're not getting the option to work through it.

02:02:50 You're just coming in and telling them the federal plan.

02:02:52 I mean, it's getting challenging for them.

02:02:53 [Chip Frensley] The federal plan is in place until a state

02:02:57 plan is agreed upon.

02:02:59 [Judge Cardone] But you've rejected all the state plans.

02:03:01 [Chip Frensley] Well, but this is the thing, though.

02:03:02 [Judge Cardone] I don't get the sense . . .

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