• 5 months ago
Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) leads a House Appropriations Committee hearing on the fiscal year 2025 budget request for the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

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Transcript
00:00:00The subcommittee will come to order. Welcome to our second hearing of the
00:00:06fiscal year 2025 appropriations season. Today I'd like to welcome the Acting
00:00:12Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Honorable
00:00:16Adrienne Todman, to this hearing on HUD's fiscal year 2025 budget request. Thank
00:00:22you, Madam Secretary, for appearing here today. Delighted to hear from you. We look
00:00:29forward to hearing from you today about HUD's request for the FY25 fiscal year
00:00:34and kicking off the current appropriations process. It is the
00:00:39fundamental job of this subcommittee to complete our work on time before the
00:00:43end of the fiscal year. I am confident that we can fulfill our task. I hope our
00:00:49colleagues who do not serve on this committee will be cooperative and help
00:00:53us meet this goal. Our job as appropriators is to carry out our
00:00:58nation's most fundamental duty of funding the government. This hearing is
00:01:02just the start of what we're called to do to make this government work for the
00:01:06American people. Today we will hear testimony about the Department of
00:01:10Housing and Urban Development's budget request for 66 billion dollars in
00:01:15discretionary budget authority in fiscal 25. HUD also uses mortgage guarantee
00:01:21fees from the Federal Housing Administration to offset its spending.
00:01:25The Office of Management and Budget currently estimates 6.7 billion dollars
00:01:30in offsetting receipts for fiscal 25, an increase of 1.2 billion from the fiscal
00:01:36year 2024 receipts score. We must recognize the impact that the health of
00:01:42the housing market and FHA receipts have on this bill every year. In addition to
00:01:48discretionary funds, HUD also proposes over 81 billion dollars in mandatory
00:01:53programs over 10 years. We are certain to face fiscal constraints in putting
00:01:59together our bill. This forces us to get back to the blocking and tackling of
00:02:03appropriations to make sure every dollar is well spent and purposeful. It lets us
00:02:09focus on funding the real needs of the government in a way that is sustainable,
00:02:14justifiable, and works for the long-term fiscal health of our great nation. HUD's
00:02:20programs impact every district, from providing rental vouchers to families, to
00:02:25helping first-time homebuyers get a mortgage, to housing veterans who have
00:02:29served our country admirably. HUD programs allow elderly Americans to live
00:02:35with dignity in housing that meets their needs and keep people safe from hazards
00:02:39in their homes. Deciding how best how to best allocate funding to these important
00:02:44programs is our task and the task of our subcommittee. One of my priorities
00:02:51on the subcommittee is to stop the runaway housing inflation that impacts
00:02:54not only my constituents in Arkansas, but every American. We cannot turn a blind
00:03:00eye to families impacted by the rising housing costs, in part caused by choices
00:03:05made by this administration. I also want to focus today on out-of-control
00:03:11regulations that set up unnecessary bureaucratic barriers. Overregulation
00:03:16limits opportunities and it feeds inflation, often without making
00:03:21meaningful improvements in people's lives. I look forward to learning about
00:03:25HUD successes and your long-term goals in this hearing. This subcommittee stands
00:03:30ready to work with you to better serve all Americans as we write the T-HUD
00:03:35Fiscal 25 Appropriations Bill. With that, I recognize my colleague and our
00:03:40Ranking Member and my good friend, the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Quigley, for
00:03:44his opening comments. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we said yesterday, for those
00:03:49who don't know it, the chairman and I were chairman rankers on FSGG, had a
00:03:54great partnership and I want to echo his desire of what should be commonplace
00:04:00business here on the Hill of funding the government in a responsible, timely
00:04:07basis. Doing so after the fiscal year begins makes no sense. We need to show
00:04:13the world that we can govern. But I also want to welcome the Acting
00:04:18Secretary Todman before this subcommittee. It's great to have you here
00:04:22both as Acting Secretary of HUD and an experienced affordable housing
00:04:27practitioner. You have led one of the nation's largest housing authorities and
00:04:33have seen firsthand the challenges of addressing homelessness, preserving
00:04:37public housing, and creating housing opportunities for low-income families. I
00:04:42look forward to the very valuable and nuanced perspective your experience will
00:04:46bring to our conversation today. As you know, this nation faces significant
00:04:51challenges with housing affordability and homelessness. According to HUD's 2023
00:04:57report on worst-case housing needs, over 8.5 million of the lowest-income
00:05:02households in the U.S. pay more than half their income for rent, live in severely
00:05:08inadequate conditions, or both. This is an increase of 760,000 households compared
00:05:15to the previous year. The solutions to these challenges are sometimes complex,
00:05:20but this subcommittee has risen to the occasion on a bipartisan basis each year
00:05:25to help HUD meet its mission to create affordable housing opportunities and
00:05:29strong, sustainable communities. In fiscal year 2024, we were able to prevent
00:05:35evictions for nearly 5 million low-income households, invest in programs
00:05:40that help mayors and governors fund locally driven solutions by expanding
00:05:44grants to reduce barriers to affordable housing production, and target 418
00:05:49million more for homeless assistant grants to help over 750,000 people move
00:05:55out of homelessness and into permanent housing. While we have made important
00:05:59strides to address homelessness among veterans and families with children in
00:06:03particular, the fight to end homelessness is far from over.
00:06:09Data from HUD's most recent national count of people experiencing homelessness
00:06:14on a single night in 2023 showed a striking increase of 12% over 2022. This
00:06:22is the single largest one-year increase since HUD began collecting data in 2007,
00:06:27and it was reflected across subpopulations. While these numbers are
00:06:32sobering, they are not cause for hopelessness. When you talk to local
00:06:36leaders, they know what works. I hope we all feel the urgency of providing the
00:06:41resources and flexibility that localities need to support and house our
00:06:45most vulnerable communities. Without it, the impacts of this housing crisis can
00:06:51be felt beyond our housing systems. Hospitals, schools, and criminal justice
00:06:56systems all bear a huge burden. Secretary, I'm pleased that you have
00:06:59brought before us a budget that would continue our progress in addressing
00:07:03these complex challenges. I look forward to working with you and the Chairman to
00:07:07come to a fiscal year 2025 agreement that adheres to the Fiscal Responsibility
00:07:12Act requirements without compromising our responsibility to ensure millions of
00:07:17Americans remain stably housed and receive the support they need to build a
00:07:22safe and thriving home. I look forward to your testimony, and I yield back. Thank
00:07:27you, Mike. The Chairman of the overall Appropriations Committee, Mr. Tom Cole,
00:07:34who was the Subcommittee Chairman this time last year and wrote the 2024 bill,
00:07:40is preoccupied with disasters in his own state. My understanding is that Tom may
00:07:46be returning to Washington this week. We have a scheduled visit tomorrow, so he
00:07:53won't be able to be here, and any prepared remarks that Mr. Cole might
00:07:57have had, we will enter into the record, and without objection, so ordered. The
00:08:04Chair notes that the gentlelady from Connecticut, the ranking member on the
00:08:09full committee, has graced us with her presence, and Ms. DeLauro, going to
00:08:15recognize you for your opening comments. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I
00:08:18apologize for being late. I should know better that with a hearing that you
00:08:22would be conducting that it's spot-on, it's happening, it's going to start on
00:08:26time. So I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member Quigley, for holding the
00:08:32hearing, and I thank you to Acting Secretary Todman. Welcome to the
00:08:36Transportation, Housing, and Urban Development Subcommittee. Let me offer my
00:08:40congratulations to you on the position of Acting Secretary of HUD. Big, big, really
00:08:48undertaking, you know, especially today, because the biggest issue that
00:08:53affects every single community across America is a lack of affordable housing.
00:08:57There's a shortage of nearly 8 million affordable homes available nationwide.
00:09:03Housing costs have skyrocketed, driving up the cost of living for American
00:09:07families, and putting home ownership completely out of reach for many. And
00:09:12this is really home ownership, having a place to be to call your own, is the
00:09:19American dream. It's the American dream, and people are suffering without being
00:09:25able to have access to affordable housing. And the lack of affordable
00:09:32housing has contributed to the escalation of the homelessness crisis. I
00:09:37spoke to mayors from across the country yesterday. They shared how rates of
00:09:42homelessness in their communities are spiraling out of control. Some 600,000
00:09:48people in America, mothers, fathers, grandparents, children, experience
00:09:52homelessness on any given day. This is an issue consuming the everyday of our
00:09:59local leaders. What they said to me actually was, this is the thing that
00:10:04keeps them up at night, of how they're going to try to cope. One
00:10:08mayor said he's got like 1,200 or 1,500 people, you know, every night
00:10:14outside, you know, just sleeping, you know, and without any place to be. So it
00:10:21really is a critical issue. So high rent, low housing inventory are crippling
00:10:26their ability to respond. They need resources, including through increased
00:10:30support for housing choice vouchers and through project vouchers, which
00:10:35would allow for additional affordable housing development. There are many
00:10:38factors that contribute to homelessness in addition to housing affordability,
00:10:43but that we as a nation have yet failed to resolve this crisis. Provide for the
00:10:48most basic of human needs for our most vulnerable populations should bring us
00:10:52great shame, but at the same time, great urgency about doing something. The
00:10:57importance of providing more housing in places Americans live and work and
00:11:01ensuring that there are roofs over their heads of Children and families
00:11:05should be a central focus of this Congress. And indeed, in the final 2024
00:11:10funding package, we made investments to improve housing affordability and
00:11:14accessibility. We prevented the eviction of nearly five million low income
00:11:19individuals and families and invested in legal aid assistance for eviction
00:11:24prevention grants. We provided historic increases for tribal housing and
00:11:30community development programs. We invested in programs that help mayors
00:11:33and governors find find locally driven housing solutions, and the mayor's
00:11:39yesterday told me they do have solutions and they need to get a hearing
00:11:42on those solutions. And we expanded grants for reducing barriers to
00:11:47affordable housing production, and we expanded housing options for people
00:11:51experiencing homelessness by committing new resources to construction and
00:11:56rehabilitate rehabilitating permanent supportive housing. However, I still
00:12:01this is incredible amount of work to be done. Longstanding inequities and
00:12:05housing persist are exacerbated by the housing inventory shortage and
00:12:10elevated borrowing costs. It was just over 56 years ago that President Lyndon
00:12:15Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act, of which the Fair Housing Act was
00:12:19included as Title eight.
00:12:22Yet the racial home ownership gap, the difference in home ownership rates
00:12:27between white and black Americans is essentially unchanged to this day. And I
00:12:32would like to hear more about what the department is doing to address this
00:12:35historic inequity. Looking forward to 2025, the president's budget request
00:12:40for HUD proposes nearly $73 billion. We should support investments that would
00:12:46enable HUD to expand rental assistance for low income households, increase the
00:12:51affordable housing supply, expand home ownership opportunities for underserved
00:12:56borrowers, advance efforts to end homelessness, address housing related
00:13:00discrimination, increase climate resilience and energy efficiency and
00:13:05strengthen communities suffering from underinvestment. Bringing down the high
00:13:10cost of living for American families has got to be our primary focus. People
00:13:15struggle every day. They live paycheck to paycheck. Housing is one of the
00:13:19primary drivers of the inflation suffocating families, budgets and
00:13:24holding back our economy. I believe that your department and this subcommittee
00:13:28must assume a leading role in tackling these issues. Thanks so much for being
00:13:33here for your public service to our country. I yield back the balance of my
00:13:37time. I think the gentlelady, Secretary Todman, you hit the lottery today. You
00:13:44are appearing before, and I know I'm biased. Um, the best subcommittee on
00:13:52the House Appropriations Committee, the gentleman and ladies that sit to my
00:13:56right and my left are genuinely interested in addressing the issues
00:14:02that fall under our portfolio. HUD, of course, being one of those. So we're
00:14:08anxious to hear your comments today. I think you will find that the Q and a
00:14:11that we will do following your remarks will be beneficial not only to you but
00:14:16to this subcommittee as we continue to press against the challenges facing
00:14:21this great nation of ours. And with that, I'll give you five minutes for
00:14:25your opening comments. Thank you, Chairman Womack, Ranking Member Quigley
00:14:30and distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the
00:14:34opportunity to testify today on the president's FY 2025 budget proposal for
00:14:39HUD, and thank you and your staff for supporting HUD's mission as reflected in
00:14:45our 2024 budget. I know that you had tough choices to make, and we are looking
00:14:51forward to working with you in the implementation of those funds. HUD has
00:14:55been hard at work getting resources out the door. We have stood up two new
00:15:00programs, YIMBY and PRICE, to modernize how and where we build housing. There
00:15:06were more apartments under construction in 2023 than in any year on record, and
00:15:11we are helping to build even more. We've provided more new rental vouchers to
00:15:16Americans across the country, the largest increase in 20 years. We've helped almost
00:15:2120 million families buy their first home. Last year alone, HUD allocated more than
00:15:27$340 million to help eliminate health hazards like lead in American homes, and
00:15:34we continue to prevent and remedy the impacts of discrimination. And we are
00:15:39making investments in HUD's workforce and technology to ensure that we can
00:15:45support communities who need us now more than ever. This past Monday, I also had
00:15:52an opportunity to meet with 40 or so mayors. There were Democrats, Republicans
00:15:56representing big cities, the suburbs and small towns, who acknowledged the support
00:16:02that they've received from HUD and the Biden-Harris administration. But they
00:16:07also shared what they're hearing from their constituents, the need for more
00:16:11rental assistance, access to home ownership, and helping the homeless,
00:16:15particularly our homeless veterans. I also heard from your colleagues on the
00:16:20Senate side as well about the housing needs that exist in their respective
00:16:25states. So we at HUD know our work is simply not done. That's why the
00:16:30president's budget proposes bold, mandatory investments focused on
00:16:34increasing the nation's housing supply, helping first-time homeowners by
00:16:38providing $10 billion in first-generation down payment assistance,
00:16:43$15 billion to support additional apartments that low-income families can
00:16:47afford and to make repairs to public housing, $33 billion to prevent and
00:16:53address homelessness, particularly for veterans, our seniors, and youth aging
00:16:57out of foster care. Together, this suite of funding and other tax proposals aim
00:17:02to tackle housing affordability head on. The budget proposal also requests $72.6
00:17:09billion for HUD, nearly $363 million more than the 24 enacted. And it's to
00:17:16support our core programs and our housing delivery systems, our public and
00:17:20assisted housing, the home program, CDBG, our housing choice vouchers, our
00:17:25healthy home programs, programs to prevent evictions and address
00:17:29homelessness with the urgency it requires, and certainly initiatives to
00:17:34boost homeownership and other wealth building opportunities. Our proposal
00:17:40also, once again, calls on Congress to support communities devastated by
00:17:46disasters by authorizing HUD's disaster recovery program, whether it's
00:17:52hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires or flooding, HUD needs to be better
00:17:57positioned to aid communities much faster than we are right now. And we
00:18:02cannot do that without Congress's help. Senators, creating and sustaining
00:18:08strong communities and providing Congress people, creating and sustaining
00:18:14strong communities and providing access to affordable housing are priorities
00:18:19for the Biden-Harris administration. And the President has put forward a
00:18:23vision that builds on our existing body of work. And HUD is certainly prepared
00:18:29to do our part. Chairman, Ranking Member, distinguished members of this
00:18:34subcommittee, thank you again for this opportunity. I will also agree,
00:18:38Chairman, that this is the best and hardest working subcommittee here in
00:18:43the House of Representatives. And I look forward to working with you on
00:18:46behalf of the American people and their credible housing needs. Thank you
00:18:51so much. And we thank you. Each member will have five minutes. We'll adhere to
00:18:56the five minute rule. Your light will turn yellow when there's a minute
00:19:00remaining. So heed the warnings as recognized by the lights. Members will
00:19:07be recognized in order of seniority based on who was seated at the
00:19:10beginning of the hearing this morning. I will recognize myself for five
00:19:16minutes. Let me kick off this hearing by saying that our thoughts are with our
00:19:21colleagues whose districts were devastated by tornadoes this past
00:19:26weekend. I'm especially thinking about my friend and our full committee
00:19:29chairman, Tom Cole, who this week is viewing the devastation on the ground
00:19:33in hard hit communities he represents. We send our prayers to the injured and
00:19:39join those who are mourning the lives lost. Acting Secretary Todman, do I have
00:19:45your commitment that HUD will work diligently and quickly with communities
00:19:52on the ground to rebuild as soon as possible? You certainly do. Thank you. As
00:19:58you well know, the Appropriations Committee appropriates the funding for
00:20:03the CDBG disaster recovery, that's the CDBG DR program. Can you remind the
00:20:09subcommittee on the DR process and steps HUD has taken to ensure that funds
00:20:13appropriated to communities are quickly dispersed? Certainly. Well, as I mentioned
00:20:18in my opening comments, Chairman, we certainly do need Congress's help to not
00:20:24just authorize the program but also to provide us with those disaster recovery
00:20:29funds. We have yet to receive some of the funding that we need to take care of our
00:20:34storms that happened in 2023 and certainly look forward to working with
00:20:39this subcommittee and others to get that across the line. Having said that,
00:20:42one of the things that we did do very recently was reach out to all of the
00:20:47existing disaster recovery grantees, those states and big towns that's
00:20:51received our funding, but also the general public to say how can we do this
00:20:56better. We know that we're not perfect. We know that this is meeting families and
00:21:00communities their most traumatic time. We received a lot of information and we'll
00:21:05be putting that to work to make sure we are streamlining the program. There are
00:21:09probably people on this dais that are maybe a bit confused as to the
00:21:15difference between CDBG DR and what would normally happen in a disaster with
00:21:21FEMA, SBA and others involved. Can you delineate the differences between what
00:21:27the responding agencies on these disasters do and then where the CDBG DR
00:21:33program fits in? Certainly. So FEMA is certainly the federal government's
00:21:38first responder. They're usually the first boots on the ground and they help
00:21:43to stabilize communities just in the immediate and short term. And SBA
00:21:49also helps by providing businesses and homeowners with resources they need
00:21:55quickly to try to get back on their feet. What HUD does, and I say this across the
00:22:01country, is HUD is there when the headlines are gone. You know, sadly we
00:22:06have so many disasters and so frequently that we forget sometimes some of the
00:22:11Americans who are impacted. HUD's work is to be there to rebuild and reknit the
00:22:16communities in the long term. I've been to Florida after Ian. I've been to
00:22:22Kentucky after the tornadoes that happened there, met with the local
00:22:26leaders and people. So HUD is there to help rebuild homes in the long term and
00:22:30to build resiliency into anything our funds touch so that we can try to
00:22:36prepare for what inevitably may be the next disaster. I'm not going to ask you
00:22:40to wade into the issues regarding the permanent authorization of CDVGDR.
00:22:47That's a fight that Congress will need to take up if in fact it's going to
00:22:54happen. We appreciate your response on the disaster recovery piece. My last
00:23:01question in this round is one of my priorities is making sure that HUD VA
00:23:04supportive housing program, HUD-VASH, is working well and veterans can access and
00:23:10use the HUD-VASH rental assistance vouchers quickly. Out of the 110,000
00:23:16vouchers awarded in the HUD-VASH program, why are nearly 30,000 vouchers still
00:23:21waiting to be leased up according to HUD's latest dashboard? You know, we do
00:23:26find that sometimes we have been, it's been difficult for veterans to sometimes
00:23:35use these vouchers in the private rental market. And so we've been working very
00:23:40carefully with housing agencies on ways that we can improve the program and also
00:23:45improve some of the business aspects of our relationship with private land. Any early
00:23:49indications what those changes, what those modifications might be? We're
00:23:53certainly looking at issues around inspections. We're looking at issues
00:23:57around getting eligibility documents done quickly. But one of the other things
00:24:01that we're doing is working with our partners at Veterans Affairs to make
00:24:04sure that we are receiving referrals or the agencies are receiving referrals
00:24:09very quickly. And both agencies are working very closely with each other on
00:24:15the ground to make sure veterans are housed. Secretary McDonough and I just
00:24:20probably three weeks ago kicked off a VA and HUD boot camp to help housers and
00:24:25the VA Medical Center leaders figure out how to work more seamlessly with each
00:24:29other. Thank you. Mr. Quigley. Thank you, Chairman. Madam Secretary, I'm going to
00:24:35dovetail on the chairman's questions with CDBGR. I think, put it in a broader
00:24:43perspective, our thoughts are with the full committee chairman and CIT is
00:24:50visiting the people who have suffered. But we recognize that the number and
00:24:53severity of storms and fires and other natural disasters have increased. And we
00:25:00have to be honest with ourself and recognize that we can't just build the
00:25:04same old infrastructure back. We have to build it with resilience and
00:25:10recognize what the long-term needs are. But it's been nearly, what, a year and a
00:25:15half since Congress has helped communities with long-term disaster
00:25:19funding through CDBGR. So I guess the first question is, what do you see is the
00:25:26current unmet need at this point? And what is probably going to be our
00:25:32annual need as we go forward so we can appropriately plan and budget? Yeah, so I
00:25:39know that we have sent over to the Congress, sort of, our DR funds need for
00:25:46the 2023 storms and I believe that's like 3.2 billion dollars. 3.2 billion
00:25:51dollars is the existing need. Can you pull your microphone a little closer? I'll get a little closer.
00:25:563.2 billion dollars is our existing need based on the storms that occurred in
00:26:012023. That doesn't include any storms that's occurred so far this
00:26:07year and probably at the tail end of last year. Please keep us informed on
00:26:12that. And I appreciate that you referenced homelessness in your opening.
00:26:17You've watched this for some time and currently have a good perch to see how
00:26:21we are doing as it relates to this. But in the communities that seem to be
00:26:26succeeding at least reducing homelessness or it's not an increase and
00:26:31particularly unsheltered homelessness, what seems to be working? What programs
00:26:36and ideas? What I see works is a high level of outcome-based coordination
00:26:43between the housing system, the homeless system, and really the political
00:26:48leadership in towns and counties across the country. And when that seamlessness
00:26:54occurs, when everybody agrees on what their true north is, I think that we do
00:26:59see a fair amount of work occurring. But notwithstanding that intentionality,
00:27:06folks need resources. I mean people continue to tell me the need for more
00:27:11vouchers, the need for more funds that were given to our continuum of care. So
00:27:16we know the need is great as evidenced in our point in time count report from
00:27:21last December. But with resources and intentionality, we think that that is the
00:27:25way to help Americans. You talk about coordination, seemingly local, but how
00:27:32is HUD and are they coordinating with other federal agencies to provide
00:27:36supportive services to maximize our investments and improve homeless
00:27:42intervention outcomes? So we actually kicked off a new pilot with our
00:27:48partners over at HHS to do just that, to match our housing and their services. We
00:27:54call it a housing and services accelerator, and Secretary Becerra and I
00:27:58kicked that off I want to say just about a month ago. It is a pilot that's
00:28:02targeted eight states that have their Medicaid waivers, and the idea is to use
00:28:08some of HHS's funding for not just services that are happening at sites and
00:28:14elsewhere, but also for some of those very modest upfront costs that our most
00:28:21vulnerable families have, whether it is a, you know, helping to clean up an
00:28:26apartment before they get in there, or something tied to their rental fee. So
00:28:32we're trying to marry our programs and HHS's services dollars to try to make
00:28:37sure we're helping families who are the most vulnerable. Thank you. Mr. Chairman,
00:28:41I yield back. As a matter of personal privilege, I'm going to recognize Mr.
00:28:49Joyce, who has important matters before the United States Supreme Court from his
00:28:55position as Chairman of the Financial Services and General Government
00:28:59Subcommittee, and I'll recognize Mr. Joyce for five minutes so that he can
00:29:03depart early and go set the scope, so he can go set the SCOTUS straight, okay?
00:29:10Mr. Joyce. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I'm gonna do as best I can
00:29:18to follow in your footsteps and lead this committee. Acting Secretary, welcome.
00:29:23Thank you. I know you have big shoes to fill. My dear friend, Marsha Fudge, was
00:29:28there before you, and in honor of her, I'm gonna ask you a question that she, on
00:29:33about an issue that she brought really to my attention, and that is, so, the use
00:29:37of lead-based paint, and it was banned in 1978, but its harmful legacy continues
00:29:42in Ohio, especially in Cleveland, the area she represented so ably over the years.
00:29:46Across the United States, it's also an issue, but 65% of Ohio housing was built
00:29:51prior to 1978, and therefore lead paint is a bigger issue. Even at very low
00:29:56levels, lead exposure damages a child's brain and nervous system, potentially
00:30:00resulting in slowed growth and development, learning behavioral problems,
00:30:03and hearing and speech issues. While it's critical to reduce the exposure to these
00:30:07existing programs that you have, have addressed lead in homes to, obviously, to
00:30:13try to prevent some of this, given the urgency to red homes of hazards such as
00:30:18lead, what should we be telling our local communities about resources that they
00:30:22can access through the department to reduce child exposure to toxic metals
00:30:26and eliminate these hazards in their homes? Thank you, Congressman, and yes,
00:30:30removal of lead hazards was something really important to Secretary Fudge, and
00:30:35I share that in her values. You're absolutely right. We need to do
00:30:40everything we can to remove these hazards from homes, particularly given
00:30:44what they do to impact our babies, and we are very fortunate to have a
00:30:49robust program that helps not just housing agencies, but mayors and county
00:30:54executives and nonprofits do that work. I will say that I do think we can
00:31:00probably do a better job making sure that folks are aware of these resources
00:31:04and teach them how to access it, and that's gonna be something that I take on
00:31:10while I'm in this seat and look forward to working with you on some of those
00:31:13ideas. I'm sure we'd all look forward to working with you to help advocate for
00:31:17that in our communities and our constituents. Can you talk about the
00:31:21innovative public-private funds that offer new and more flexible gap
00:31:25financing that could increase the pace at which these local communities can
00:31:29eliminate the public health threat and complement existing efforts? No,
00:31:32absolutely. So, you know, almost everything that HUD does requires the public and
00:31:37private sector working with each other. We know that our health hazard funds are
00:31:42sometimes matched with funds that are with, you know, nonprofits and
00:31:50other private sector partners on the ground. We know that we need to do more
00:31:55of that. We know that we have businesses who are very interested in making sure
00:32:00that we are moving lead hazards in and around their communities as well, and so
00:32:05I think that there's more work to do there. What aspects of your FY25
00:32:10requests will help improve the rate at which the department can assist
00:32:13communities in eliminating these home-based hazards? Right, well, certainly,
00:32:18you know, the budget reflects some of the constraints placed by the
00:32:23Fiscal Responsibility Act, and so we're trying to be responsible stewards
00:32:27and follow that law, but certainly we prioritize this, and we do have a
00:32:32robust number in there to carry out the work of our health hazards
00:32:37program. It's lead, it's mold, it's radon, it's all the things that we know
00:32:41are hurting our families, and we certainly look forward to working with
00:32:45the subcommittee on what our final number looks like. Thank you very much.
00:32:49Keep up the great work, and thank you for your time, Mr. Chairman. Are you back?
00:32:53Thank you, Mr. Joyce, and now I'm gonna recognize one of my Democrat friends,
00:33:01and you guys may want to arm-wrestle over it, and I don't know, Ms. Torres, do
00:33:05you need to? You got 30 minutes? Ms. Watson-Coleman, do you want to?
00:33:13Am I one of your Democrat friends? I hope so. I want to make sure as I embark on this.
00:33:18We'll find out when we get to full committee markup, yes.
00:33:23Ms. Watson-Coleman, you're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
00:33:27congratulations to you, Madam Acting Secretary. You have very big shoes to
00:33:33fill, but I've looked at your bio, and you can certainly fill them because of
00:33:39the work that you've done. I want to talk to you a little bit about the current
00:33:44litigation before the Supreme Court, debating on whether or not homelessness
00:33:48and potentially setting a precedent that would criminalize homelessness, which is
00:33:53unheard of in my mind. No one wants to be homeless if they have an option. How
00:34:00will HUD use funds proposed in the budget to combat this? Additionally, what
00:34:05can Congress do to promote the use of sound evidence-based approaches to
00:34:09resolving homelessness and which don't involve further victimizing people who
00:34:14are experiencing it? Well, thank you for that. Well, I will start by saying
00:34:20homelessness is not a crime, and what HUD can do is to prevent and eliminate
00:34:27homelessness altogether. It's one of the reasons why when we looked at what we
00:34:32prioritize, what the President prioritized in this budget, we tried to
00:34:36make sure that that piece of our work received the amount of funds that we
00:34:41need to meet this moment, notwithstanding the constraints of the Fiscal
00:34:45Responsibility Act. But we also have an obligation to work with our partners on
00:34:50the ground who are on the front lines carrying out this work, our continuance of care,
00:34:55our housing agencies, to make sure that they're working as swiftly as they can
00:35:00as well in providing technical assistance. So we understand the need. We
00:35:04think HUD's role is to make sure people are using our funds in a very
00:35:09intentional way, but also doing what we can working with other federal
00:35:13partners to prevent homelessness to begin with. I want to ask you about the
00:35:19using of your funds, because when I look at all the requests and the money that
00:35:25you have at your disposal, it looks like a lot. Now, I don't know if it's enough
00:35:29because we have such a massive issue with homeownership, home rental, in all
00:35:35kinds of populations and things of that nature, but has HUD found bottlenecks?
00:35:43Bottlenecks that interfere or delay the money that you have allocated to certain
00:35:50issues, getting kind of caught up in systems? If so, where do you find that
00:36:00most prominently, and what is it that you think you can do about it? What is it
00:36:05that you think we need to do about it? Thank you for that. So I will say at the
00:36:10onset that we don't have enough resources. The country, not just HUD,
00:36:14doesn't have enough resources. I believe that. One in four eligible people for our
00:36:20vouchers receive a voucher, just one in four. So that means that there are three
00:36:25of the four families out there who are needing our help, who are either homeless
00:36:30or at risk of being homeless because they're just on the edge.
00:36:34So certainly we don't have the resources that we need, which is why the
00:36:39President, in each one of our three budgets, has proposed more vouchers. Okay,
00:36:43with that in mind, I agree with you. Do you find bottlenecks? Certainly. Where are
00:36:50they? Yeah, the bottlenecks in using our vouchers stems in some of the rules
00:36:55that HUD has to follow. You know, landlords will complain about the length
00:37:00of inspections. Landlords will complain about making sure that just working with
00:37:06the government is sometimes slow. So we've created some flexibilities over
00:37:12the past couple years to give housing agencies tools that they can use to work
00:37:17more quickly and to provide incentives to work with landlords. I think that that
00:37:22connection is probably the biggest bottleneck we have in the use of our
00:37:27rental assistance. So is our biggest problem a lack of housing, the variety of
00:37:33housing that we need? Is our problem investors who buy up housing and create,
00:37:38you know, this more expensive, unaffordable? Is it discrimination? What is it all together?
00:37:45Yeah, I would have to say if there's one thing is that as a country, as a whole, we
00:37:52have not kept up with the demand for housing, whether you're in big cities or
00:37:58small towns, and that's a fact. Since 2008-2009, we just have not built at the
00:38:04pace that we need, and we need approximately two to three million more
00:38:08housing units. And so if there is one thing I would say, if we did that one
00:38:13thing, I think it'd make an impact, it is that. Because by doing that, not only we
00:38:17providing units for people to live in, but we're also helping to reduce the
00:38:22overall costs by increasing the supply that can meet the demand that we have.
00:38:27Thank you, Madam Secretary. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
00:38:37Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Acting Secretary, for being
00:38:43here. I have the privilege of representing San Antonio, seventh largest
00:38:47city in the country, predominantly Hispanic community. I would love to work
00:38:53with you on housing and some other issues. Would you be willing to take a
00:38:57trip to San Antonio? I'd love to host you at your convenience. Absolutely,
00:39:00happy to do that. Fantastic. What you'll find is Texas is like a country of its
00:39:04own, and we are used to kind of going about it our own way, but it shouldn't
00:39:09be that way, you know. In many cases at the local level, housing is very much an
00:39:14issue, but if you talk to the people of San Antonio, it's the local city council
00:39:19and it's the local mayor that are feeling as if they're carrying a larger
00:39:24share of the need and the want, and I think there's an opportunity here. You
00:39:29know, over the last decade, the overall poverty rate in San Antonio has
00:39:34relatively stayed the same at 18 percent. There's over a hundred and ten thousand
00:39:39families on the public housing waiting list. Another thousand families get
00:39:44added to it each month, so the demand is absolutely there. The city is growing at
00:39:49an incredible rate. Opportunity Homes San Antonio, which is the local housing
00:39:54authority in San Antonio, needs well over half a billion dollars to address
00:40:01capital maintenance issues across their properties. I used one of my community
00:40:05projects to help with this, but that's a couple million bucks. It's a drop in the
00:40:09bucket compared to the need. Like many public housing authorities
00:40:13across the country, Opportunity Homes must utilize other funding streams to
00:40:18provide affordable housing, including local taxpayer funds. Given the federal
00:40:23government's role in providing public housing maintenance, are
00:40:27there any opportunities for additional funding or incentives to cities that use
00:40:32local funds to preserve and create new public housing?
00:40:37Thank you for that. I look forward to my trip to San Antonio with you. You know,
00:40:42one of the things that HUD has used over the past several years to help housing
00:40:47agencies with their capital needs is the Rental Assistance Demonstration
00:40:52Program. We call it RAD, and it has been very successful. Agencies have been
00:40:58able to use that and leverage their assets to be able to raise funds to
00:41:03make repairs, and so we see that happening all over the country, including
00:41:07San Antonio. New kitchens, new bathrooms, things that are really meaningful to
00:41:11residents. That's fantastic, and I'd love to drill down more on this program and
00:41:16others at work. I visited one of the housing facilities on the west side of
00:41:21San Antonio, and you had families drying their clothes outdoors on a clothes
00:41:26hanger. You know, it was, you know, a hundred years ago, and it's just
00:41:31not right in so many cases. And I get that, you know, the demand for cost,
00:41:35and you're always struggling for dollars, but I just would love to find a way on
00:41:39how we can deliver so that way these families can live in a very dignified
00:41:43way. And like you said, a new washer and dryer, that is a game-changer for many of
00:41:47these families. My next question, we are in a housing crisis in San Antonio.
00:41:52There's just simply not enough houses to go around. Because of this, realty experts
00:41:57have said that newly built homes are imperative to keeping up with the
00:42:01growing demand. With thousands of people relocating to San Antonio, this has been
00:42:05a significant concern to local realtors. What efforts are underway to help
00:42:10increase the overall supply of housing in the Texas area?
00:42:15Over the past couple years, HUD has worked with the other agencies in the
00:42:21federal government on a overall housing supply action plan. And while we've
00:42:26proposed dollars that we think are needed to resource that plan, we've
00:42:30also used our existing administrative authorities to do things. One example of
00:42:34that is the federal financing band risk-sharing program that we have with
00:42:40Treasury, which has provided really necessary gap financing for developers
00:42:45through the housing finance agencies to kind of get that work done. We were able
00:42:50to extend the deadline and make that initiative permanent. And so we're hoping
00:42:56to have much more housing built with that particular program, which is just
00:43:01using the authorities that HUD and the Treasury Department has.
00:43:05Excellent. And that's all the questions I have. I look forward to working with you
00:43:08and your team, and I look forward to hosting you in San Antonio. With that,
00:43:11Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, Tony. Ms. Torres. Thank you, Chairman, and I know
00:43:15I'm your friend because we serve on two committees together. Welcome to our
00:43:21committee. We're so excited to have you here and weigh in on some of our
00:43:26questions regarding housing affordability. When it comes to
00:43:31transportation and housing, low-wage earners are, you know, for me,
00:43:37at the very, very low end. They're paying the highest in public transportation, in
00:43:43the highest, up to 50% of their income goes for public transportation. So
00:43:48housing is incredibly important. Those vouchers are incredibly important. In
00:43:53fiscal year 23-24, the funding bill provided funding for nonprofits under
00:44:00HUD EDI program as community projects. I've invested many of my community
00:44:07projects in affordable housing for low-wage workers in my district.
00:44:15Unfortunately, this year, nonprofit organizations will no longer qualify for
00:44:20those projects. We have housing availability and options for ag
00:44:28workers, but for warehouse workers that I represent, you know, there's really
00:44:33nothing that has been cut out for them. Organizations like the House of Ruth,
00:44:40which is a domestic violence shelter, the National Corps, which is a national
00:44:47award-winning nonprofit organization, you know, that builds affordable housing, will
00:44:53no longer be able to qualify for this funding. Do you have any thoughts and
00:44:57ideas on how you can help them build up the housing stock that communities like
00:45:03mine desperately need? Right, in the face of HUD not being able to provide any of
00:45:10the community project funding, funding to... No, but specifically to nonprofits. To
00:45:16nonprofits. Certainly, nonprofits are qualified subgrantees to our, all the
00:45:25other funds that we have, our CDBG funds come to mind. In fact, many nonprofits
00:45:30across the country are deploying our dollars as we speak. There's very limited
00:45:36other opportunities that HUD has to provide nonprofits with direct access
00:45:42to our funds, so it would basically be sort of as a subgrantee. Okay, I like to
00:45:49work with you on that issue, on how we can expand some options and opportunities
00:45:54for them to continue to serve our communities. On another issue, veterans
00:45:59across the country are sometimes forced to choose between their disability
00:46:05benefits and housing vouchers. HUD-VASH vouchers. Currently, HUD rules count
00:46:13veterans' federal disability stipends as income, which combined with Social
00:46:19Security can put them above the qualifying level. Restrictive, you know,
00:46:25income limits imposed on these low-income housing tax credit is another
00:46:31obstacle for them. Do you plan on revisiting the HUD definition of annual
00:46:38income to exclude VASH vouchers specifically to deal with this issue, to
00:46:45address this issue for veterans? This issue came to our attention several
00:46:50months ago, and we've been working very closely with our partners at Veterans
00:46:54Affairs to just figure out what was going on and how folks were, with some of
00:46:59the highest needs, some of our veterans with our highest needs, not being able to
00:47:03access our housing. And so we've been working closely with Treasury. One of the
00:47:09things that we will be doing is increasing the eligibility, the
00:47:14eligibility limit, so that more veterans can access our VASH vouching. So vouchers,
00:47:20what that means is that by increasing it from 50% to 80%, we understand we're able
00:47:26to assist 97% of all homeless veterans across the country. So we think that's a
00:47:33good start. Okay, but their disability payments will
00:47:37still get in the way. Well, that includes, that 80% would
00:47:43include their VETS benefits. It would be included in their definition of income.
00:47:47So when we take our bar and raise it to 80, we'll take care of 97% of the
00:47:53homeless veterans in the country. And working with our partners at Treasury,
00:47:57we're helping them figure out how to work with their programs as well. Great.
00:48:02Well, we'll check in with Treasury also, and I look forward to working with you,
00:48:05and I yield back. Thank you, Norman. Mr. Valdedale. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you,
00:48:11Madam Secretary, for your time today. I want to make you aware of a unique
00:48:15challenge we're facing in California, where we have a conflict between HUD and
00:48:19IRS regulations. Given the state's affordability challenges, we're starting
00:48:23to see more developers leverage HUD programs with the low-income housing tax
00:48:27credit to build new affordable housing. However, HUD's methodology for
00:48:32calculating utility allowances is out of date. The IRS in California can
00:48:36calculate utilities building by building, while HUD is still using area-wide
00:48:40estimates that don't consider the energy efficiency of new construction. I never
00:48:45thought I'd say this, but California is doing something positive and market
00:48:48driven when it comes to affordable housing. And currently, California is
00:48:51forced to use HUD's outdated methodology, and we're overspending on utilities. This
00:48:56is money that could go towards constructing badly needed housing. This
00:49:00seems like a simple fix, and I want to ask you if HUD has any plans to update
00:49:04its methodology to allow states like California to calculate utility
00:49:07allowances and utilize the tax credit more accurately. I'm just hearing of this
00:49:12for the first time, Congressman, so I'll commit to figuring out what's going on
00:49:16and look back at my team, who's busy taking notes, and we will get back to you
00:49:20on how we can address that. I appreciate that. It's something that seems pretty
00:49:23reasonable, and I figured you'd be open-minded on this one, wanting to work
00:49:27with us. California, we really do struggle in some of our housing
00:49:30issues there, across the state, even in our rural communities. Since 2014, the
00:49:36federal government has issued nearly 20 billion in awards to communities in
00:49:40homeless assistance, an increase of 53 percent. Chronic homelessness over the
00:49:45same period increased 56 percent, and unsheltered homelessness increased 30
00:49:49percent, affecting more than 380,000 in both groups last year. In fact, 58 percent
00:49:56of those counted as homeless in the point-in-time count last year were
00:49:59chronic and unsheltered. How does HUD justify increasing awards year after
00:50:03year when it's clear by your own data that more and more people are
00:50:08experiencing chronic and unsheltered homelessness over the life of
00:50:12the program? I will tell you, you know, we were taken back by what the
00:50:20point-in-time count in January of 2023 showed us, in terms of the needs across
00:50:25the country. Since that time, January of 2023, we've deployed a number of funding
00:50:32provided to us by this subcommittee to make sure that we were helping folks on
00:50:36the front lines deal with that 12 percent increase. We have sent funds to
00:50:41areas to help with encampments. We've sent funds to help with our young
00:50:47homeless individuals. But let me say this, when we took a deep look in the data of
00:50:54that 12 percent increase, what we found was that many of the individuals were
00:51:01first-time homeless, that we believe were being assisted by the very robust social
00:51:07safety net that was created during the pandemic to make sure folks were not
00:51:13deemed homeless. And then when those different programs began to
00:51:18expire is when we saw an uptick. So we know that there's an issue. We've
00:51:22deployed some additional funds and the 25 budget, as best we can with the
00:51:27constraints around us, has proposed funding to continue to help localities.
00:51:33All right. And then continuum of care. California receives the highest amount
00:51:38of federal funds of any continuum of care across the country. Last year, HUD
00:51:43provided more than 525 million dollars to California for this program.
00:51:47Unfortunately, these awards have failed to reduce the number of people
00:51:50experiencing homelessness. Focusing on the chronic and unsheltered populations
00:51:54over the last 10 years, chronic homelessness has increased 260 percent
00:51:58and unsheltered 132 percent. When HUD sees these large awards going out year
00:52:02after year to specific continuum of care and sees the constant increase in
00:52:07homelessness in populations year after year, what intervention or assistance
00:52:11does HUD provide? How does it ensure the taxpayer resources are not going to
00:52:14ineffective programs and are not mismanaged by incompetent leadership and
00:52:19are driving positive metrics? What is HUD's plan for improvement in the
00:52:24state with the highest unsheltered population in the nation?
00:52:27Yeah. So we know that the state and local leadership at California are doing
00:52:32lots of things and using our funds to address the homelessness crisis there.
00:52:38HUD does not provide its funds willy-nilly to our continuums of care. We
00:52:44actually have a competition. That competition is now in a two-year basis.
00:52:48But the idea is that to just prevent exactly what you're talking about. If we
00:52:53have a stable, well-performing continuum of care, they will continue to receive
00:52:59the funds that we have. When we don't, they don't. And so we are keeping an eye
00:53:06on that and we're also providing technical assistance where necessary
00:53:10given the magnitude of the issue. All right. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
00:53:15yield back. Thank you. And now, the ranking member of the full committee, Ms.
00:53:20DeLauro. Welcome back. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize again. It's
00:53:24a hearing hopping here today. But just a quick thought. It may be, Mr. Chairman
00:53:31and a ranking member, as I said, I talked to a number of mayors yesterday and I
00:53:36know you, Madam Secretary, you did as well. They talked about that there are
00:53:40several successful examples or projects, models that are dealing with the issue
00:53:46of homelessness. It may be worthwhile to bring those folks in to listen to this
00:53:52because it is such a pervasive issue nationwide and to bring it more to the
00:53:58attention of our colleagues and what are the kinds of things. And then it also, I
00:54:02think, helps us in terms of what are the kinds of projects we should be
00:54:06funding, what initiatives would make sense. Anyway, let me, I reached out to my
00:54:13public housing authorities in my district. And this first question comes
00:54:18from someone you know, Karen DuBois Walton. She's from Elm City's community
00:54:23in New Haven. And the second question comes from Jared Hayon of the Ansonia
00:54:29Public Housing Authority. We see a significant number of housing vouchers
00:54:34expiring due to a lack of units for individuals and families to rent. HUD
00:54:39exercised more flexibility to get people housed during the pandemic and you made
00:54:44that point. Beyond significant investments in creating more affordable
00:54:48units, how is HUD thinking in the short term and long term to address low
00:54:54voucher utilization through greater flexibilities for subsidies, expediting
00:55:00lease up changes to the fair market rate calculations, streamlining
00:55:04recertifications or other means? No, thank you. And Karen is a
00:55:09tremendous leader and one of the best houses in the country by far. Let me
00:55:15say this, you know, we have learned through two different streams of work.
00:55:20Both the flexibilities provided during the pandemic, but also the
00:55:27flexibilities provided to moving to work agencies in terms of ways to
00:55:31streamline their programs so we're focused on outcomes and not just
00:55:35paperwork. And through both of those streams we know some of the flexibilities
00:55:39that have worked. Some of them we've already put into place, like a more
00:55:43expansive use of our administrative fee to really incentivize landlords. But I
00:55:48know there's more that we can do. And so there's an internal working group at HUD
00:55:52as we speak talking about what are things that we can do inside of HUD's
00:55:57authorities so that we can carry on some of the flexibilities that you
00:56:03mentioned. But additionally our legislative proposals also has embedded
00:56:08in them some of the things that we think can work that we don't have the
00:56:12authority to implement and we need some statutory guidance from Congress. So
00:56:17we know that there's more streamlining we can do. The voucher
00:56:21program should be made much more streamlined than it is right now and I'm
00:56:26committed to doing that. The Ansonia Housing Authority, smaller public housing
00:56:32authority, they want to expand their programs and services especially for
00:56:36seniors. They don't have the the income to sustain their homes but lack
00:56:42affordable housing options. These are people who have lived in what is known
00:56:46as the Naugatuck Valley in Connecticut. Discuss how HUD might help public
00:56:49housing authority like the one in Ansonia address the housing and
00:56:52supportive services needs of seniors. One idea that was raised in
00:56:57particular is the development of scattered site properties tied to
00:57:01project-based vouchers. So certainly we are you know a big proponent of you know
00:57:08project-based vouchers because it creates stability where if there's a
00:57:12senior with a voucher who can't find a unit it's probably really traumatizing
00:57:18to not be able to find some place secure. What project-based does it
00:57:22provides stability and one site and then we can invite service providers to that
00:57:27site. Meals on Wheels comes to mind. I know a lot of senior buildings have
00:57:31Meals on Wheels wildly successful partnership. But in addition to that HUD
00:57:35does have our resident services dollars that go to housing authorities that can
00:57:40help support these kind of programs and there's lots of models where housing
00:57:45agencies are working with local nonprofits and their local human
00:57:50services as well. So we can certainly make sure that those models, particularly
00:57:54models that are working for smaller agencies that may not have some of the
00:57:58bandwidth to to create those partnerships, we can make sure that we
00:58:02are providing those models that I think can be replicated.
00:58:06I'm down to 16 seconds. Will there be another round Mr. Chairman?
00:58:13There'll be another round but if you've got another question, you're the ranking
00:58:17member of the full committee. I don't want to abuse my colleagues here. Very, very quickly.
00:58:22Cities today are restricted from using more than 15% of their community
00:58:26development block grants, those dollars on services. The cap prevents cities from
00:58:32spending more dollars on supportive services and emergency assistance like
00:58:36rent and utilities to keep people housed. Is HUD exploring measures to either
00:58:41increase or waive CDBG's cap on public services? I think that that is certainly
00:58:47one thing that we can look to and I know that we're interested in any and all
00:58:52ideas to to use, you know, these these resources, these valuable resources to
00:58:59to achieve better outcomes. So happy to sit with you on some of the ideas that
00:59:03you're hearing. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you very much and thank you Mr.
00:59:06Chairman. You're most welcome. We'll take that 45 seconds off Pete Aguilar's time.
00:59:13Just kidding Pete. Sheriff, Mr. Rutherford. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Madam
00:59:20Secretary, great to see you and thank you for all you do. Listen, I met with the
00:59:29Northeast Florida Apartment Managers Association, very large group, last week
00:59:35they brought up an issue that I don't know if your apartment or your
00:59:39department is aware of. If you are, I'd like to know what you what you can do
00:59:44about this issue. If not, I'd ask if you could look into it. It's a little, it's a
00:59:50little confusing, so follow me. They're running into a problem where they can't
00:59:55confirm a voucher holders, this is on the Section 8 voucher issue, going back to
01:00:00actually some of the bottlenecks that my colleague was talking about earlier.
01:00:05They're running into this problem where they can't confirm the voucher holders
01:00:09ability to pay rent because the Public Housing Authority will not confirm how
01:00:15much the housing voucher will cover until there's an agreement in place with
01:00:20the landlord. However, the landlord, this is like a chicken and egg thing, however
01:00:26the landlord or property manager may not be able to make that agreement until
01:00:31they know the prospective tenants ability to pay, which is partially based
01:00:35on that voucher. So sometimes these voucher holders are not able to rent
01:00:42these apartments because they may not meet the income requirement without the
01:00:50voucher being counted in. Have you run into this anywhere else? It looks
01:00:55like we have a sequencing issue, a little bit, or maybe a process issue that
01:00:59that, you know, most other agencies are able to to overcome. So I'm intrigued by
01:01:06what you said and would ask the team to follow up with your staff to see exactly
01:01:11what's going on because this this is a process that generally works every day
01:01:15in terms of what the tenant will pay, what the housing authority will pay to
01:01:20get to a hundred percent of the rent. If the voucher is not counted in their
01:01:23ability to pay, then they may not be able to rent that apartment. So I
01:01:27understand. I look forward to working with your staff on that. I really
01:01:31appreciate that offer. I want to bring up multi-family housing, the
01:01:37multi-family housing complaint process. As I said, I'm from Jacksonville so I'm
01:01:44sure you're familiar with the Callaway Cove apartment explosion and fire that
01:01:49injured several people. And the indications were from the HUD-OIG that
01:01:56complaints were not being properly followed up on, not handled in a timely
01:02:01manner, and that that actually led to potentially this explosion. Two
01:02:11of the main recommendations that came out of the specific investigation of
01:02:16this incident has to do with developing a comprehensive process to ensure the
01:02:21complaints received by the clearinghouse are resolved in a timely manner. That's
01:02:26number one. That's their recommendation. Number two is develop agency-wide
01:02:31policies and procedures for the intake, monitoring, tracking of health and safety
01:02:37complaints, and follow-up on mitigation. Some of the times when you look at
01:02:43mitigation, it's up to like 17 days. That's just not acceptable. So are these
01:02:50OIG recommendations on HUD's radar? Are you guys working on this now? And your FY25
01:02:56request includes $419 million for the Information Technology Fund.
01:03:02Are you looking to use that to assist with developing this tracking
01:03:09system? No, thank you. And so first of all, let me say that it is horrible what
01:03:15happened at that site. And, you know, residents' complaints should always be
01:03:19listened to, and it's a manager's duty to make sure that people are living
01:03:23in a safe building. So let me say that at the top. As it relates to the
01:03:29complaints, right now HUD does have a decentralized process because we do have
01:03:38partners who sit between us and those owners who are the intake system for
01:03:47those complaints. And we do get those reports, but they're coming from all
01:03:53across the country. So yes, one of our IT investments is to find a way to take
01:03:59all of those complaints and centralize it in a way that HUD understands so
01:04:04those red flags can be raised. And that is an investment that I know our Office
01:04:08of Housing is looking to take on with our IT department. Separate and
01:04:13apart from that, last year HUD did start our new Inspire inspection program. It's
01:04:20the first time that the same inspection protocols for public housing, the types
01:04:25of sites that you're mentioning, and our voucher program, the same
01:04:30inspection protocol. That protocol is now focused on health and safety. The
01:04:36previous one was more focused on curb appeal. This one is looking inside the
01:04:41units and we're hoping that when this is in its, it's in use
01:04:46right now, but when it gets really rocking and rolling, we will be able to
01:04:50find these problems and address them more quickly. Thank you very much and I
01:04:55look forward to working with your staff on the voucher issue. I'm intrigued by that one.
01:04:59Mr. Chairman, I see my time is up. I yield back. Mr. Aguilar, with a full five minutes.
01:05:03Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Madam Acting Secretary, I'll do the very best I
01:05:08can in the, you know, 35 seconds the chairman has allotted me here. I appreciate
01:05:13his generosity. You have big shoes to fill, as has been said before. Your
01:05:19predecessors served with many of us, not just in this chamber, but on this, in
01:05:24these committee rooms. So thank you for signing up for this and we look
01:05:29forward to working with you. Climate disasters, as the chairman mentioned,
01:05:35climate disasters, and the ranking member touched on this too, wildfires,
01:05:39atmospheric storms, they've threatened homeowners insurance market as well
01:05:44across California. In the last year, seven of the twelve top insurance
01:05:50companies in California have stopped offering homeowners insurance policies
01:05:54in the state, threatening millions of middle-class Californians who are
01:05:59seeking to renew or or get their insurance policies. Within the scope of
01:06:05HUD's jurisdiction, what can, what can we do together to help address the rising
01:06:10costs of homeowners face with respect to insurance, while also obviously being a
01:06:17part of the affordable housing provider mix and the insurance that is available
01:06:22and required of these affordable housing providers? You know, I have yet to run
01:06:28into an apartment owner, public or private, who doesn't bring up the
01:06:33escalating cost of insurance as a problem, in terms of being able to
01:06:38maintain their operations or even finding insurance. So I thank you for
01:06:43putting that question out there. We've sat with housing providers about ways in
01:06:49which HUD can use its authorities. We have very limited authorities when it
01:06:52comes to the insurance industry, but what we can do is look at our rules and see
01:06:57ways that we can meet this moment. And I think it was just last week, if not the
01:07:02week before, we adjusted our wind and storm coverage to really help some of
01:07:10those housing providers deal with some of these escalating insurance costs.
01:07:14We're also working inside of the public housing program to see if there's ways
01:07:18that we can address increased costs there. Sometimes agencies don't know that
01:07:24they can come to us and ask for additional funding to address, you know,
01:07:30some of the things that you've described. So one, we're getting information out
01:07:33there on what people can do, but we're also taking a really, really precise look
01:07:39at our rules to see are we requiring folks to get levels of
01:07:44insurance, perhaps, that they might not need to. I've heard that we sometimes
01:07:50require unnecessary levels of insurance on empty buildings, and so we're
01:07:55trying to look at common sense, things like that, to see how we can address
01:07:58those costs. It's a real issue. I've met with mission-driven
01:08:05private owners of affordable housing who are saying to me they can't stay in the
01:08:10business because they can't get insurance, but their market
01:08:18rate units can. So there's lots of curiosities around what's happening
01:08:23right now inside of the insurance industry, but HUD is working with
01:08:28our owners with what we can do to help. Are there suggestions that you have to us
01:08:33or, you know, our friends on the authorizing side, flexibility that would
01:08:38be necessary in order to help? I mean, more of this is going to happen, whether
01:08:41it's California or Florida or Oklahoma, more of these climate disasters. We'll
01:08:46provide those to you. We have a working group that has a, like, every single part
01:08:50of the housing portfolio inside of HUD has provided me with things that they
01:08:55can do. I will put on the table are there things that Congress can help us do, and
01:09:00we'll make sure to get that to this committee and to the Congress. Thank you
01:09:04so much. You're welcome. I know you've met with local leaders. A lot of us met with our
01:09:09local mayors this week as well, and specific to project-based vouchers, is
01:09:14Congress considers increasing the cap for project-based vouchers? What
01:09:18considerations would HUD suggest we keep in mind with respect to implementing a
01:09:23cap increase? Well, one of the things that HUD is going to do from its part is
01:09:28finally implement the project-based aspects of HATMA, which was a law that
01:09:35that Congress approved many moons ago, and so we're going to get that across
01:09:40the line. We think it will improve the administration of the project-based
01:09:44program. We are right now at a 30% cap, and, you know, there's some folks
01:09:50who feel that project-based isn't always the best solution, but we also know that
01:09:55we see it working well, particularly when it's difficult for folks to find a unit
01:10:00with the voucher in their hands. So as we do this body of work of ways to make the
01:10:07voucher program better, we will come back to you with things we think we need that
01:10:11can help with the authorizations in that program. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr.
01:10:16Chairman. Mr. Klein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Acting
01:10:20Secretary. Appreciate you being here. I want to return to the topic of
01:10:22homelessness and, in particular, the need for policies that prioritize holistic
01:10:27approaches to homelessness, encompassing both housing and essential support
01:10:31services. Do you think it's important if a person experiencing homelessness who
01:10:35has untreated mental illness with self-medicating substance use disorders
01:10:39get treatment? I think it's important that anybody who has mental or physical
01:10:48illnesses get the treatment that they need. And you'd agree that an addict
01:10:53who's addicted to methamphetamine or fentanyl should get treatment as well,
01:10:56correct? I believe that anybody who's having substance abuse issues should
01:11:01should be have treatment available to them. Are you aware of the dramatic
01:11:05increase in overdose deaths inside federally supported Housing First
01:11:09programs? I'm sure that there's an uptick. If I could, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
01:11:14insert into the record an article from the American Medical Association JAMA
01:11:19titled, Mortality Among People Experiencing Homelessness in San
01:11:23Francisco During COVID-19 Pandemic. Without objection. Thank you. Should a
01:11:29person experiencing homelessness who has untreated mental illness with
01:11:32self-medicating substance use disorders receive treatment before we provide them
01:11:36with a housing voucher? So here's my thoughts on that. In my experience, what
01:11:42I found is that if someone is stabilized in a home, not only is it easier to
01:11:50provide services, but it's actually easier to even find that person. When
01:11:57someone is homeless and on the streets and going through sort of a mental
01:12:01trauma, it is difficult to provide services to them. But what we can do once
01:12:09someone has a home or is in a shelter, we're able to provide those services. Can
01:12:19you tell me what metrics HUD is using to assess the effectiveness of its programs
01:12:23in addressing homelessness, mental illness, and substance abuse? Our
01:12:28emergency shelter program and our continuum of care have a number of
01:12:32different metrics that we use. I'm happy to provide those to your office. Thank
01:12:36you. And can you talk about how the data informing future policy decisions, how
01:12:42it's how it is informing future policy decisions and resource allocation? One of
01:12:47the things that we do is we listen to the folks who have to administer our
01:12:50programs locally about things that we need to do to to make sure the program
01:12:55is effective. And we do that on a routine basis. And can you tell us how HUD is
01:13:01collaborating with mental health and substance abuse treatment providers to
01:13:05ensure that individuals experiencing homelessness have access to the support
01:13:09services that are needed? Absolutely. So I mentioned before that there's
01:13:15sometimes a disconnect between housing and services. And one of the things we
01:13:19want to do is to braid those two a little bit more tightly together. We
01:13:25certainly do provide, our funds do provide an opportunity for services, not
01:13:30just housing. It can pay for services as well. I mentioned earlier that we have a
01:13:35new initiative with health HHS to find ways to use Medicaid dollars to pair it
01:13:42with housing so people are getting the services that they need, whether it be,
01:13:47you know, some mental trauma or it is something tied to substance abuse. Can
01:13:53you tell me how HUD is partnering with the faith-based community that provides
01:13:57housing assistance and supportive services? Well certainly our funds have
01:14:02access to those funds as well in being sort of the part of that front line of
01:14:09providing folks with shelter, providing folks with interim housing, providing
01:14:13folks with services. Thank you. I would just say I think we'd all agree that
01:14:17simply providing housing without addressing underlying issues such as
01:14:21mental illness or substance abuse is a recipe for failure. And with that, Mr.
01:14:26Chairman, I yield back. Thank you, sir. Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:14:31Congratulations, Acting Secretary. Thank you. And might I say you have a fabulous
01:14:36name, Adriana. I'll never forget yours. Well, Mr. Chairman, in many ways this, we've
01:14:46heard from both sides of the aisle on this great need that America has for
01:14:52housing. It's really, what we hear is really a lack of money investment. I
01:14:58think that maybe even since from the Reagan years forward, the federal
01:15:05government has become an absentee landlord. We haven't provided the funding
01:15:09for housing that it takes for families to have a roof over their heads. And so
01:15:15as appropriators, it's incumbent upon us to make this a priority. And this is not
01:15:21an easy issue. It's a deep pocket issue. Housing is never a cheap endeavor, right?
01:15:28It requires an investment. But it has a direct impact on the quality of life,
01:15:35obviously, of all Americans. And I heard from my colleagues from both sides
01:15:40really have a similar story, similar questions to you, Acting Secretary. So and
01:15:47nowhere is this more profound and more visible than in the NYCHA complexes of
01:15:55my district and across New York City. NYCHA has 360,000 residents and it has
01:16:01over 177,000 apartments. But they're in dilapidated conditions. They are really
01:16:10in bad conditions. New boilers are needed, chipping paint, roofs, elevators
01:16:18are done. You know, the wear and tear of this housing stack has taken a toll on
01:16:24it and it needs investment. In fact, the projection is that a 20-year capital
01:16:31investment need is for $78 billion. I get that. I am sure it's no different in
01:16:39each of our districts. The housing needs are so profound. So I want to know, I mean,
01:16:46what plan do we have in HUD to begin to address this humongous, humongous
01:16:53problem? You know, thank you for that, Congressman. We, as a country, we have not
01:17:00kept up with the needs of the public housing portfolio, as you so well
01:17:04stated. And, you know, we can do better and we need to do better for the families
01:17:09who live in those units. It's one of the reasons why the President, for the past
01:17:15three budgets, has proposed billions of dollars of investment for our public
01:17:22housing sites to deal with heating, to deal with basic, just making sure people
01:17:27have an operating kitchen, to get rid of some of the health hazards we talked
01:17:32about earlier. We have to and we must do more. You know, one of the things that we
01:17:39are doing as well is making sure that people have access to, you know,
01:17:45streamlined version of the RAD, which is the only thing that many agencies,
01:17:49including NYCHA, is using right now to make those repairs. We are trying to make
01:17:54sure we're putting in our annual budget a capital fund amount that deals with it,
01:17:59but it doesn't, it really doesn't all the time. It's a drop in the bucket, really.
01:18:04But it's one of the reasons why we've proposed a $7.5 billion
01:18:08investment in our public housing sites, so we can begin the heavy work that
01:18:14you've talked about. And I think that that work, married with some of the
01:18:18things that we're already doing, will make a difference, but we must do more.
01:18:22And that's a call to this committee. This is the THUD subcommittee.
01:18:28To make a priority out of housing again, I think it's imperative for our nation,
01:18:34on both sides of the aisle. This perhaps could be a bipartisan issue that we can
01:18:38work on. Finally, Acting Secretary, there's a building in my district, a 1915
01:18:46Billington Terrace in the Bronx, that collapsed. And they are the recipient of,
01:18:51part of it collapsed. They are the recipient of low-income housing tax
01:18:56credits, and have previously been deemed structurally unsound in 2020. Had
01:19:03the structural needs been addressed, many residents would have had to live through
01:19:09this without this experience, right? What can we, what can HUD do to ensure that
01:19:16landlords keep up their housing stock when they receive these low-income
01:19:21housing tax credits? So, LIHTC Housing gets not one, most of the time, but two
01:19:28inspections. There's requirements that the Department of Treasury has,
01:19:33that they're inspected every year. And then, if there's any vouchers in the
01:19:39building, HUD's, the housing agency's inspected as well. I think what I'd like
01:19:44to do is maybe sit down with our leadership at Treasury and say, what more
01:19:49can we do together to make our inspections, sort of, making sure that our
01:19:57inspections are finding these issues before these strategies occur.
01:20:01And I'm happy to work with you on that. Well, I'll invite you to come and see our
01:20:05NYCHA developments as well. Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
01:20:09Thank you. Mr. Siscomani.
01:20:15Thank you, Chairman. And I want to thank Acting Secretary Tadmian for being here
01:20:21today. Thank you so much. You know, safe and affordable housing is a key component
01:20:27of preserving the American Dream that I often talk about. And in Southern Arizona
01:20:32in particular, we're facing a severe homelessness and affordable housing
01:20:35crisis. So, this issue is a very, very high priority to me. Now, I believe that
01:20:40the federal government must get creative when looking at ways we can tackle this
01:20:45housing shortage. And that is why I called upon the administration to
01:20:49repurpose a small percentage of unobligated COVID-19 relief funds
01:20:54towards a deficit neutral multi-housing demonstration program to support the
01:21:00swift production of urgently needed affordable homes and leverage public
01:21:06resources to private investment. So, I was very pleased to see the inclusion of a
01:21:11line item for a demo program of this nature in the budget request this
01:21:16year from you all. So, as HUD works out the details of this demo program, is this
01:21:21something that you'll be willing to work with me on in this project? Certainly.
01:21:25Great, great. Well, I look forward to work with you on that and your department of
01:21:29this demo program as well as other innovative ways that we can assist our
01:21:33cities and towns with their housing issues. Any further comment on that
01:21:37that you have regarding just getting creative on this thinking outside the
01:21:41box? I don't think my community is the only one facing this, but certainly mine
01:21:44is at a very high degree in terms of homelessness and just overall the
01:21:49affordable housing crisis. You know, I think that resources and innovation and
01:21:53being very outcome focused is what we're going to need and a lot of
01:21:58intentionality. And so, a lot of innovation doesn't necessarily happen
01:22:02here in DC. So much of it happens, you know, with the practitioners on the
01:22:07ground who have to get things done. And so, we invite innovation from them and
01:22:11learn from them about the best ways that we can take what's happening locally and
01:22:15bring it to scale across the country. Well, I'm really glad to hear that and
01:22:18like I said, I was pleased to see that our inclusion was made it down the line
01:22:21item on the budget. Would love to take you up on that and work with you on that.
01:22:25I'll move on to a second question here. The federal home loan banks have said
01:22:30they will be contributing 1 billion dollars to affordable housing this year.
01:22:36They, along with HUD, play a key role in making housing more affordable, as we're
01:22:40discussing. How does HUD try to learn from and partner with federal home loan
01:22:45banks, affordable housing programs, and vice versa? How does that relationship
01:22:49work? So, we have a strong working relationship with FHFA, the Federal
01:22:55Housing Finance Agency, who has oversight over the federal home loan banks. And
01:23:00I know that the director there has been very pointed in terms of her
01:23:05expectations on what FHLBs do. And so, that is our point of
01:23:10contact. We also work with our, like I mentioned, our housing providers who do
01:23:16receive sometimes gap financing to build homes from the federal home loan
01:23:21banks. But our primary relationship is through FHFA. Great. So, is this
01:23:26level of funding something that the private sector is looking for? Oh,
01:23:29absolutely. I think that there is, I was in a banking, Senate
01:23:34Banking Committee hearing very recently with Director Thompson, and I do think
01:23:38there was a line of questioning there where she put on the table some of the
01:23:41things that she is going to be requiring of the federal home loan banks in terms
01:23:46of additional resources that they're bringing to the table. Great. Well, I look
01:23:49forward to working with you on that as well. I'll squeeze in one more here. You
01:23:52know, Arizona Sixth District, mine, which I probably represent, has a significant
01:23:57military presence. And our veterans are a vital part of our community. The HUD VA
01:24:02Supportive Housing Program has been instrumental in providing housing and
01:24:06supportive services to our homeless veterans. Could you elaborate a little
01:24:09bit on the key lessons learned from this initiative? And how can HUD build
01:24:14on the program's success to expand supportive services and housing options
01:24:18for our veterans? Additionally, what role can Congress play in ensuring the
01:24:22continually expansion of these critical services to
01:24:26better serve our veterans and their families? So, what VASH has taught us is
01:24:31that we can make a huge change in helping people who are homeless. Through
01:24:37VASH alone, we've reduced veterans homelessness by 50 percent over the past
01:24:42decade. That's a big number. It's a meaningful number. So, I think that we
01:24:47can learn from the lessons of VASH in terms of the way in which we marry
01:24:51housing and services, but also the way in which departments can work
01:24:56together. HUD has housing in our name, but we're
01:25:00certainly not the only ones who can support the housing the country needs.
01:25:03And I think VASH is a great model of that. Well, thank you so much. And I would
01:25:07encourage the department to continue to prioritize programs like this one moving
01:25:11forward. Our veterans have sacrificed so much for us, and none of them should go
01:25:15without a roof over their head. Indeed. So, thank you so much. Mr. Chair, I yield back.
01:25:18Thank you, Mr. Siscamone. Ms. Wexton is a valued member of this subcommittee and
01:25:26suffers from a health condition that requires her to communicate by
01:25:29extraordinary means, fascinating technology. And at this time, I'm going to
01:25:35yield Ms. Wexton the floor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As members of the committee
01:25:44already know, last year I was diagnosed with progressive supranuclear palsy, or
01:25:49PSP. I describe it as Parkinson's on steroids, and I don't recommend it. PSP
01:25:54makes it very difficult for me to speak, so I use an assistive app so that I can
01:25:59participate and you can understand me. Welcome, Acting Secretary Todman. It's
01:26:03great to have you here. Last year, I spoke with Secretary Fudge about the
01:26:08Fostering Futures Program, a Virginia program that helps teens and young
01:26:12adults in foster care after they turn 18. I was a guardian at Lytham for many
01:26:17years, and ensuring those resources are in place is so important as these young
01:26:21people transition out of foster care. HHS manages a lot of the federal work in
01:26:26this space, but HUD also plays an important role. Just a few weeks ago, HUD
01:26:31announced over $12.7 million through the Foster Youth to Independence
01:26:35Initiative to public housing authorities to provide housing assistance to young
01:26:39adults as they make that transition. Can you please tell us about how the FYI
01:26:44program's targeted assistance has improved outcomes for this vulnerable
01:26:48population, and are there other ways HUD or the administration more broadly is
01:26:52working to invest in youth as they age out of foster care to ensure they are
01:26:56given the resources and tools they need to succeed? It's wonderful to see you.
01:27:01You know, I think the foster, and thank you for your leadership on this issue, and
01:27:05it's making a tremendous difference. I know that the work that HUD is doing to
01:27:11help foster youth who are aging out of the system is making a tremendous
01:27:15difference. I try to think of, you know, when I was 18, 19 years old, and being
01:27:20told, go adult, go, you know, go find yourself an apartment, you know, go figure
01:27:25out how to pay your rent, all the things. I mean, it's hard enough being in my 50s,
01:27:28much less being somebody who's 18 and being told, go into this brave new world
01:27:33and figure it out. So the least we can do to not just help our foster youth, but
01:27:39also help prevent homelessness, is to catch our young adults when they need us
01:27:46the most, and house them. And so that program has been working very, very well,
01:27:53and we look forward to seeing it grow. One of the things that we have been
01:27:59doing is making sure that two systems are working with each other, and that is
01:28:04the housing system and the foster care system. And so our leader inside of the
01:28:11public housing program has met with his counterparts at HHS to make sure that
01:28:17we're lockstep in getting these vouchers out the door and helping as
01:28:23many foster youth as we can.
01:28:29Thank you. Last year, I also spoke with Secretary Fudge about HUD's work to
01:28:33stand up new Violence Against Women Act resources, which included a public-facing
01:28:38website that had just gone online shortly before our hearing in 2023. She
01:28:43was very excited about the resources, trainings, and technical assistance that
01:28:47would be available for anyone who might need them, both housing providers and
01:28:52regular people. So my question for you is, could you please give us an update
01:28:56about HUD's efforts to provide these resources, and how the funding Congress
01:29:00has provided for these programs has been used to support survivors and improve
01:29:04outcomes?
01:29:06No, so we certainly are, have stood up our, or will be stood up this week, our
01:29:15new gender-based violence office. And we're certainly looking at ways in which
01:29:22we can staff that up very, very quickly, ma'am. In addition to that, our staff in
01:29:28our Fair Housing Office have been receiving sometimes very painful calls
01:29:35from survivors asking for HUD's help. And we've been helping them with the
01:29:42resources and the abilities that we have. So this is a priority for the
01:29:46department.
01:29:54Thank you. I yield back.
01:29:57Thank you, ma'am.
01:29:58Mr. Zinke.
01:30:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome, Secretary, Acting Secretary. It's nice to
01:30:05see you. And first, I want to thank you. Your staff in Montana has been very
01:30:11helpful in us navigating through multiple community projects and stuff.
01:30:16So your staff in Montana, I can say, has been very good. And thank you. There is
01:30:21an issue, though, that, you know, you don't learn much from headquarters. You
01:30:25learn a lot when you go to the front line. And so Montana Housing Authority
01:30:29has an issue that was brought to my attention. And it's an important enough
01:30:33issue that came all the way to Washington, D.C. to talk to me about it.
01:30:37They shared with me the problem they're having, in fact, that the Montana Housing
01:30:41Authority has had $4.5 million swept from their reserve account. With that
01:30:48money taken and more planned this year, it makes the problem become the surface,
01:30:55and it's a big problem. In fact, it's such a problem, the result of $4.5
01:30:59million resulted in 576 Montana families that were unable to access
01:31:06housing assistance. And then a couple weeks ago, this same issue was brought
01:31:11forward to you during the Senate Banking Committee hearing. You were
01:31:16asked to reach out to local housing authorities in Montana to try to
01:31:20navigate through this. To date, nothing has been heard from your office. And I
01:31:28just want your commitment that you'll reach out to the Montana Housing
01:31:33Authority to get their input, how do we remedy this? Because sweeping that
01:31:38account, I'm sure everyone does it a little differently, but the reserve
01:31:41account in Montana, when it's swept, they can't go forward with existing
01:31:45contracts. So it's a problem. So if I have your commitment to work on that.
01:31:49Absolutely. The sweeping of the reserves only recently came to my attention, so
01:31:54I'll learn more about that. And I will say it was my impression that members of
01:31:59the HUD team had reached out to the Montana Housing Agency to talk about
01:32:03their fair market rent methodology, so I will double back with them. But it's
01:32:08my impression that that connection happened, but I will confirm. And I just
01:32:11had my assurance I will work together with you to remedy it. And then
01:32:15just on philosophy, we talk about renting vouchers, and you
01:32:21look at affordable housing, and why is it so unaffordable? One,
01:32:25Montana, some of it too, is that people from California are coming, and maybe
01:32:30California, you know, housing prices were more. So there is some of that. But a lot
01:32:36of it has to do with high inflation, and high inflation also energy costs. So when
01:32:42energy costs are high, material costs are high, building material costs, that dumps
01:32:46into labor costs, and inflation, when we have high inflation, then you have high
01:32:52interest rates. And we're all suffering from that. So that house that was
01:32:55affordable before might not be under the current interest rates. I'm particularly
01:33:00concerned about home ownership. You know, and I understand helping people through
01:33:05a rough spot in housing, but ultimately it's always been about home
01:33:10ownership. And the American dream, a lot of it is built on home ownership. And when
01:33:17you live a life of renting, and there's no opportunity to buy home
01:33:21ownership, then a lot of it just dissolves, for many, the American dream.
01:33:28And a lot of frustration on the younger people that look up, and how to way
01:33:32forward a 1.2 million dollar house in Bozeman, Montana. So some of it is, you
01:33:37talk about innovation, and I would offer this, I think we should look at a
01:33:41government-backed 50-year mortgage. Because it is, while you pay a lot of
01:33:47interest rates, I think lowering monthly costs, it's lowering monthly costs
01:33:53so people can afford something. And then I think we should look at
01:33:56expanding definitions of title. Because it's very difficult to get a loan
01:34:02sometimes on a condo. But you know what, you own the title. And maybe we should
01:34:07expand our definition on innovation of what title looks like. So a person can
01:34:12buy maybe a piece of an apartment, or expand it. So at least you own and gain
01:34:17equity in the title. Might not be the first title you own, hopefully it's not,
01:34:20maybe you can expand up. But the entry level for a lot of families on a
01:34:26three-bedroom, two-bath, two-car garage is too far. So I applaud your efforts in
01:34:33that. I just caution that, you know, spending, I think the source of the
01:34:37problem is getting after inflation, lower that. Source of it is getting
01:34:42after lower energy costs. Crush the interest rates down. And look at
01:34:48opportunities, how to expand the opportunity for everyone to buy a home
01:34:52eventually. So thank you for everything. And Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
01:34:56Thank you gentlemen. We've completed our round of questions on round one. We're
01:35:01going to do a quick lightning round if any of the remaining members have a
01:35:05question that they'd like to ask. And I want to start. In January of 24, HUD's
01:35:10Office of the Inspector General published an urgent management alert
01:35:14regarding improper payments in HUD's tenant-based and project-based rental
01:35:18assistance programs. Noted that the HUD leadership needed to take immediate
01:35:22action to resolve issues in estimating improper payments in those programs, the
01:35:27two largest at HUD. So can HUD share an estimate of its improper payments
01:35:34for last year for these programs? And have we made any progress in estimating
01:35:38improper payments for these programs since January of 24? We're hearing a lot
01:35:44about improper payments. I know Chairman Arrington on the House Budget Committee
01:35:48is trying to tackle improper payments. And there are many areas in the federal
01:35:55bureaucracy where improper payments are, the sum total of them, are extremely
01:36:02extremely high. Help me understand where we are in improper payments. Thank you
01:36:07Chairman. So yes, the Inspector General at HUD and I have been having this
01:36:13conversation over the past several months, ways in which HUD can expedite
01:36:18its review of improper payments. It has been some years that we've done that.
01:36:25And I think that we were presented with a proposal that seemed like it was still
01:36:31too many years to go. One of the reasons is because some of the technological
01:36:36needs that we have to do it in an efficient way. It was a heavy cost
01:36:42burden to the department. Sometimes eclipsing even a percentage of the
01:36:47improper payments that we had in our rental assistance programs. But we are
01:36:52going to expedite. And by the commitment that I've made to really the whole
01:37:00HUD family, but also the IG, is that we will have an improper payment estimate
01:37:06by the end of next year. Having said that, the program has improved over the
01:37:12years in terms of making sure that there's no improper payments to begin
01:37:16with. And so while perhaps 20 years ago there was an amount of improper
01:37:25payments that was unacceptable, with the advent of third party verification that
01:37:31agencies use, some of the compliance work that we do with our privately owned
01:37:36sites, we've been able to have a much more stringent approach to HUD's
01:37:41payments so that we are keeping the public trust. And so we know that that is
01:37:46in place. It is our obligation to get this body an improper payment number,
01:37:53and we're committed to do that. Thank you, Mr Quigley. No further questions,
01:37:58Mr. Rutherford. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:38:04Secretary, the Continuum of Care program, which I am very supportive of and
01:38:09really appreciate all that y'all doing that. As you're aware, in section 242 of
01:38:16the Consolidated Appropriations Act, we gave HUD the authority to do that
01:38:21two-year issue of the NOFO, and so this is our first year going through. Can
01:38:30you talk a little bit about the impact that that's had with the providers? We
01:38:34are enthusiastically looking to have this two-year competition
01:38:42opportunity. You know, Continuum of Care need to be busy helping homeless people,
01:38:46quite frankly, and each year they're trying to balance helping
01:38:51homeless people with applying to HUD for more funds so they can survive the next
01:38:55year to help more homeless people. So these two years, I think, are welcomed, not
01:39:00just by the department, but also the COCs, and thank you for that. And we are going
01:39:05to be implementing it with much enthusiasm. Is it increased your
01:39:13participation of providers, or is it too early to tell? It's too early to
01:39:18tell. It's too early to tell, but I can tell you it is welcomed, and we look
01:39:22forward to it. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I yield back, Mr. Sherman. Mike, any
01:39:26final remarks? Just thank Madam Secretary for being here and your good work. We
01:39:30look forward to working together with this committee. I think Chairman's right,
01:39:33we have a good team here who wants to get appropriations done and done on time.
01:39:39Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. With that, our time is concluded. Thank you for
01:39:44being here today, Madam Secretary. To my colleagues and to their staffs, anyone
01:39:50that has questions to submit for the record, please do so within seven days to
01:39:54the subcommittee staff so that we can get those included into the record. I
01:39:57want to thank you for being here this morning. We look forward to working with
01:40:01you as we continue the FY 25 appropriations process, and with that, the
01:40:06subcommittee stands adjourned.

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