- 10/02/2024
In this edition, we look at the EU plan to cut carbon emissions by 2040 and a deal to protect women across Europe.
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00:00 [Music]
00:12 Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly talk show that takes a look at all the news brewing here in Brussels and beyond.
00:21 I'm Maeve McMahon, thanks for joining us.
00:24 Coming up this week with EU climate targets for 2030 set in stone, the Commission has now set its sights on 2040.
00:32 The plan presented this week in Strasbourg is to slash carbon emissions by 90% to stay on track for a carbon neutral economy by 2050.
00:41 But with farms and factories complaining about all the green regulation, we're asking how the Commission will juggle this one.
00:49 And stopping domestic and online violence against women, the aim of an ambitious EU directive that was agreed upon this week in Strasbourg.
00:58 After months of talks and deliberation among EU governments, if implemented, it could be a game changer for victims and properly punish perpetrators.
01:07 We break it down and hear about this first step for women's rights in Europe.
01:12 Let's meet our panel this week, Heather Grabe, Senior Fellow with Brugel and a visiting professor with KU Leuven.
01:19 Silvia Pastorelli, Climate Change and Energy Campaigner from Greenpeace.
01:24 And Tommy Huthinen, Executive Director of the Martin Centre, a think tank affiliated with the European People's Party.
01:30 Great to see you all. Thank you so much for coming in to see us.
01:33 But before we get your insights, let's just recap on what got this town talking this week.
01:38 It is a race against time in Brussels. With just a few months until the elections, the EU Commission is cracking on with its checklist to reach climate neutrality by 2050.
01:53 Unveiled this week, a new roadmap to reduce emissions by 90 percent by 2040. But it is just a recommendation.
02:08 With a backlash to the Green Deal across Europe and farmers' protests reaching fever pitch, the EU Commission president ditched her dream to half-chemical pesticide use by the end of this decade.
02:22 With so much at stake for the climate and Europe aspiring to be a global leader, we asked how the EU will walk this political tightrope.
02:33 So as you can see there, this is just a recommendation. The proper legislative proposal will come out when the new commission is in place after the elections.
02:40 Heather, what is your reaction to what you've seen this week presented?
02:44 It's really important to have a target for 2040, first of all, just to say that. We need to do that because we have to present new nationally determined contributions at the COP, so it's important for Europe's international credibility.
02:57 But also, if you just have a target without a plan, it's a wish. So if you have a 2050 target, you then need a 2040 target to show how far you need to get by 2040 in order to reach net zero by 2050.
03:11 And the key thing now is to set out a credible action plan to get there. And the thing that concerns me mainly about this target is not so much the number, whether it's 90 or 92 or 93, it's about the assumptions that are built into it, which then will guide the action plan.
03:27 So we have to look at the contents as well.
03:29 Of course, the devil is always in the details. Tommy?
03:31 Yeah, indeed. So there's a broad commitment to the Green Deal and all of it. But I would say the Commission recommendation is quite ambitious, especially for 2030. We don't know exactly are we going to achieve those goals.
03:44 And I think as the proposal says, you have many aspects there which are challenging. So you want to reach the goals.
03:51 On the same time, you want to keep the industry and economy fully functional and competitive, and then you want to keep people happy. So that's a big challenge.
04:01 It's a big challenge, isn't it? Keeping everyone happy. That's what Ursula von der Leyen, of course, has been trying to do there.
04:06 But just to take a look, we've been looking at the documents, so you don't have to. And the main points of the plan, Tommy, indeed, seem to be actually implementing what was already agreed.
04:15 So the Fit for 55 package, cutting emissions by 55% by 2030, also decarbonising industry by investing more in wind power, hydro power, increasing production of batteries, electric vehicles, heat pumps, solar cells, and keeping an open dialogue with farmers, businesses and social partners.
04:34 So they're really, Sylvia, giving a nod there, aren't they, to the farmers, given the discontent we've seen across the continent?
04:40 Yeah, so first of all, on the list of points that you've just mentioned, I think that the big elephant in the room still is the absence of fossil fuel phase-out date.
04:49 And I think that unless or until the Commission is willing to put pen to paper and say this is where it ends, to acknowledge that the main drivers of climate change, fossil fuels, need to go, there's not going to be any certainty for people or for investors and businesses.
05:04 And when it comes to the farmers, they have absolutely right to be angry and concerned about their future, because just looking at the past 15 years, the EU lost almost 40% of its farmers.
05:15 But it's not nature protection or the environment that is the cause of this.
05:20 It's subsidies, it's markets and rules that are all geared to benefit the biggest players, factory farms, who can push prices down, and they're only the ones who can afford these low prices.
05:33 But as Heather says, the question is really how? And the big challenge there is the financing.
05:38 As the Financial Times said a couple of weeks ago, it is 1.5 trillion euros every year needed for investment.
05:46 So the question is, where does the money come from? Public? Not all of that's for sure, for sure.
05:52 And then if private, how? What's the business plan?
05:55 Well, the European Investment Bank are trying to play a role there, no?
05:58 Yes, it's going to require a lot more, though, than one institution can provide or even that the whole public sector can provide.
06:04 It's got to be also bringing in private finance.
06:07 And the way to do that is to provide greater certainty, a much clearer sense of direction.
06:11 And that's why these targets matter. But to do that, they've got to be credible.
06:15 And that's why the credibility of the following legislation is really critical and making sure also that member states actually implement it.
06:23 A lot of this money will have to come from member state level, member state governments,
06:28 but also crowding in that private investment over a really sustained period of time, over several electoral cycles,
06:34 which is why you can't have a flip flop from one government to the next.
06:38 So having these longer term targets helps to provide that kind of arc of stability across different government things.
06:45 But the tricky thing now, I think, is also persuading people that the costs of inaction are so much greater than these investments.
06:53 The numbers sound huge. One point five, you know, one and a half trillion a year. It sounds enormous.
06:57 But the cost of cleaning up from floods and wildfires, the loss of crops from drought, for example, is a lot bigger than that.
07:04 And if anyone wants to take time out, in fact, to read those documents that did come out from the commission,
07:08 they outline all those figures and what it would and how it would impact the European economy.
07:12 But look, as you know, MEPs were in Strasbourg this week and our reporter, Chandra Zeros, was also there
07:17 and he asked them what they thought about these 2040 targets. Take a listen.
07:21 Well, that's the least we can do. Climate evidence has been around since the early 70s, right?
07:27 We should have started climate action at that time and then it might have been, I would say, a gentle transition.
07:34 But consciously, consciously, the majority of the European government,
07:39 the majority of the European Parliament chose to ignore that in the name of preserving short-term economic interest.
07:44 And so they postponed, postponed, postponed, postponed. Well, first denied, denied, denied, and then postponed, postponed, postponed.
07:50 As a result, yeah, now we need to work hard to meet our target.
07:54 Sorry, but that's just a constraint that doesn't come from the Greens, that comes from the planet.
07:58 I'm surprised. I think it's a crazy policy. It's a drastic increase, which I do not see any justification.
08:05 The Greens are not surprised because they squeezed Vupke Hukstra during the hearing to submit this before the elections.
08:13 But I think it's a key mistake to do it.
08:16 That was the Czech MEP Alexander Vondar there from the European Conservatives and Reformists
08:20 and before him, the Belgian Green MEP Philippe Lambert.
08:23 Alexander Vondar was referring to Hukstra. That's of course Vupke Hukstra, the EU Climate Commissioner.
08:29 But Sylvia, I mean, I'm sure you followed the whole debate in Strasbourg this week.
08:33 What's your taste of how divided politicians are when it comes to reaching these targets?
08:37 I've heard a few times also during the debate how MEPs seemed surprised about the plan, about the target.
08:44 First of all, this is not a surprise. This is part of something that MEPs have voted for a few years ago when it came to the climate law.
08:51 And this is one of the necessary steps as part of the climate law and one of the steps towards the UN,
08:58 the commitment toward the UN agreements and the UN climate talks.
09:02 So as far as it stands, I don't think any government in Europe has actually been able to meet their current climate goals as of yet.
09:08 Yeah, it relates very much to this change, it relates to public opinion.
09:13 So what the polling shows? Polling shows that people are very concerned about climate change, number one.
09:18 Number two, they're ready to contribute and pay.
09:21 Number three, they're not ready to sacrifice their livelihood.
09:24 So you need to balance with the environmental sustainability, you need economic and social sustainability also.
09:32 So that's the difficult plan.
09:34 And tell me, is that why the president of the European Commission, who's from, of course, your political party,
09:38 is that why she ditched the pesticides bill to halve pesticides use by 2030?
09:43 I think, well, we had just tractors here last week.
09:47 So there's a big movement of the whole agricultural sector, which is impacting on all this discussion.
09:56 And I guess it's also one reason was the whole method, how to do it, also to have a dialogue with the agricultures.
10:04 But it's very, as you mentioned, it's a very challenging discussion.
10:06 But has she gone too green just for your party, for your colleagues?
10:10 I think rightly so. The Commission tries to find a balance on what are the realities,
10:15 because as mentioned, this is something very revolutionary what we are doing.
10:20 Now we have some facts, we see how industries are acting.
10:22 Is it revolutionary, Heather?
10:24 Well, it's revolutionary because we have to change the system that has caused Europe to be warming at double the global average
10:31 and for us now to already have hit 1.5 degrees.
10:33 We found out this week that the earth is already at 1.5 degrees above pre-industrial levels.
10:38 And already in January, we were at the hottest temperature in the sea that we were at last year.
10:46 So the warming is happening a lot faster.
10:48 The tipping points are being reached much earlier than climate scientists had dared to predict.
10:53 And that's going to have a huge impact on, for example, agriculture, on food security.
10:58 So there needs to be also climate adaptation planning.
11:02 And the costs of that have to be factored in, too, because everybody will be hit by it.
11:07 It's the poorest and most vulnerable who get hit the worst, which creates even more injustice.
11:12 And at Greenpeace, are you concerned that the Green Deal is unravelling?
11:15 Do you still think it's credible?
11:17 We, from the very beginning, said that the ambition that was set by the Green Deal was already not enough.
11:23 And that is also the problem still remains with the green target or the plan for the 2040 target.
11:29 While it sounds like a big number, you have to read the fine print and actually what's behind it.
11:35 And that is, again, the absence of a fossil fuel phase-out, but also the over-reliance on carbon removal and sinks.
11:43 And the idea that the actual emission reductions, like fewer cars on the streets, phasing out fossil boilers,
11:52 that they can be counted together with natural sinks, with promises to absorb CO2,
11:57 either by natural sinks, which is protecting nature, something we should be doing anyway,
12:02 or carbon capture technologies that, to this day, have not delivered one large industrial-scale, fully operational plant in the EU.
12:10 But yet today we can still get subsidies for gas boilers in our house all across Europe.
12:16 Something which is astonishing.
12:17 When we're having these conversations here and then just a couple of kilometres away,
12:21 when people are renovating their houses here in Brussels, they still get subsidies.
12:24 And that's the point.
12:26 There's huge cost related.
12:28 As you said in the beginning, it's about the plan. What's the plan now?
12:32 Because we have a huge investment gap which we need to fill. So how shall we do that?
12:37 And the fossil fuel subsidies are an enormous cost to the public purse.
12:40 Since the beginning of when Russia invaded Ukraine, fossil fuel subsidies have gone up enormously.
12:46 They're not well targeted, so they're not benefiting the people who are suffering from energy poverty.
12:51 They're benefiting people who don't need so much help.
12:54 And they cost an enormous amount of money which could be spent on actually making the transition happen, on moving towards renewables.
13:00 And the thing about fossil fuel subsidies is they're also just giving the wrong incentives to everybody.
13:06 They're giving everybody the impression that a 90% reduction by 2040, well, whatever industry I'm in, that'll be in the 10%.
13:13 Oh, well, carbon capture and storage, that will just solve the problem.
13:16 And it doesn't exist. Certainly not now.
13:19 At the moment, the only proven technology for carbon capture and storage is plants and the sea.
13:25 So this is why the agricultural side and particularly rewilding and natural carbon sinks are really fundamental.
13:31 Because if we don't pay attention to these kinds of nature-based solutions,
13:36 we're going to end up in a much worse position in only a few years' time.
13:40 And just on fossil fuels, there was an IMF report last year that said fossil fuel subsidies had surged to a record $7 trillion last year,
13:47 which is astonishing. And it's a topic as well we spoke to Megan Richards about.
13:51 She's a climate consultant here in Brussels. Take a listen.
13:54 There's a lot of backlash now against the Green Deal, but this is misplaced backlash, in my opinion.
14:00 Governments still subsidize fossil fuels.
14:03 There's a huge subsidy program going on in the European Union to subsidize fossil fuels.
14:08 That's something that could easily be reduced.
14:11 It's hard to do in political terms, but it's easy to do financially.
14:16 So it's a misplaced economy to think that by stopping the Green Deal or stopping these clean energy transition efforts,
14:26 we will be able to make progress.
14:28 And in order to advance Europe and make sure Europe is a clean, secure, and interesting place for investors, for individuals,
14:37 we have to make this transition.
14:39 Megan Richards there sounding very convinced.
14:41 Yeah, but the point again on that argument is that you need to keep energy prices low.
14:46 Otherwise, you have a reaction from industry and from the people.
14:49 But you can do that longer term by moving to renewables.
14:53 Renewable energy is much cheaper.
14:55 You don't have to keep importing it from dodgy countries with, you know, dictatorships that are benefiting from that.
15:01 And how are we doing there on that side?
15:02 Well, looking back at the subsidies, first of all, like just for Europe, the number has gone up.
15:06 So the trend of downsizing fossil fuel subsidies has actually been reversed.
15:10 And we've gone from 56 billion in 2021 to 123 in 2022.
15:16 And that's because of Covid and the full scale invasion of Ukraine.
15:19 Yes. And as Heather was rightly saying, a lot of these subsidies were completely not targeted and didn't end up helping people where they most needed.
15:26 And looking at solutions, renewables, but also investing into heat pumps, installation, renovation of houses.
15:32 These are solutions that can be put in place in a matter of weeks and for a much, much cheaper price.
15:38 In 2022, roughly 40 million people in Europe couldn't keep their house adequately warm.
15:46 And that's almost 10 percent of the EU population.
15:49 And that is shameful because we have the money and the technology to make sure that this doesn't happen.
15:54 But is it really that simple?
15:56 Yeah. But you said about the price of renewal, it can be one day cheaper, but today it's not.
16:01 And the question is, there's a huge demand.
16:03 And, you know, as we know, in Germany, they are now burning coal in order to compensate because there has been transition going on, which is not working.
16:10 Your prices go up and you need to get the energy somewhere.
16:13 The longer you keep investing in fossil fuels, the slower you make the transition to renewables.
16:18 You have to set the incentives for the whole economy, for individuals.
16:21 I agree.
16:22 And their own choices about how they're going to heat their houses, how they're going to get places, but also for industry.
16:27 And I think this is the key thing. At this point in time, the big money is in the private sector that needs to be unleashed.
16:34 And to do that, you have to set a very, very clear regulatory framework with a certainty.
16:39 Now, look at how many businesses have written letters to, for example, Commission President von der Leyen,
16:44 complaining about reversals in the Green Deal because they have made the investments to make that transition happen.
16:50 So you shouldn't disincentivize that. And you need to show the costs of going backwards.
16:55 And that's a very interesting point because we spoke to Romain Pardot.
16:58 He represents the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability, and he actually speaks on behalf of companies like IKEA and Amazon.
17:04 We can take a listen to his take on these targets.
17:06 Hiberdrola, who are investing 47 billion euros in renewable energy between 2023 and 2025,
17:14 or on the demand side, IKEA, which is working with its suppliers to use renewable energy throughout this value chain.
17:22 So it's really practices like this that a robust target will encourage.
17:27 Climate action yields competitiveness benefits.
17:31 The global market for clean technologies is worth trillions of euros.
17:35 It will become exponentially worth a lot more as we move forward in the future.
17:41 So we really see that as a business opportunity rather than a cost for our businesses.
17:47 So Romain Pardot making the case, the business case for Clean Take. Tell me.
17:51 Exactly. And there we should go.
17:53 And there are clusters in Europe which are, you know, business where business sees that this is really the opportunity.
17:58 But that's not all Europe. And we cannot only regulate, but we have to build the business case for the companies to be able to drive
18:04 because they have to, you know, they are in global competition.
18:07 But businesses have to know what they should invest in. I mean, look at the enormous mistake we've made with cars in Europe.
18:12 Where we've continued with this myth that we can carry on having hybrid cars that use fossil fuels forever.
18:19 And meanwhile, the Chinese started making the investment in electric vehicles where they can now make the really good cheap EVs
18:26 that will be sold all over the world. So we complain now, are our car makers in trouble?
18:31 That's threatening so many jobs in Germany that will have a huge political effect.
18:34 Yes, because policymakers did not say clearly 10 or 15 years ago, yes, we're moving to electric vehicles.
18:40 Start investing in making those instead.
18:42 So many mistakes made. Silvia, final comment from you.
18:45 Final comment. I absolutely agree on the mistakes made and on the steps backwards.
18:49 There's clearly a lot of inconsistencies across the board on EU policy.
18:52 Just think about the taxonomy that labelled investment in gas as green.
18:57 How is that supposed to be, how fossil fuels are still supposed to be green?
19:01 And at the same time, given the right incentives and the right signals to investors,
19:05 which clearly on the one hand see targets like the 2040 target proposed for a 90% emission reduction cut.
19:12 And at the same time, an energy mix that still sees oil, gas, and especially things like gas,
19:18 and new investments in gas labelled as green.
19:20 And Silvia, we don't have time unfortunately to talk about it now, but there was also the Net Zero Industry Act.
19:24 A deal was reached this week, the NETSA it's called here, in the bubble.
19:28 It's meant to counter the American Inflation Reduction Act.
19:32 I would have liked to have gotten your take on that, but I'm afraid we have run out of time.
19:36 Because we have to take a very short break, but stay with us, because afterwards we'll be hearing
19:40 why women's rights groups all across Europe were in a pretty good mood this week.
19:44 See you soon.
19:45 Welcome back to Brussels, my love, Euronews' weekend show that takes a look back at the week across Europe.
20:00 We'll all eyes on Strasbourg now, where a deal was sealed this week on a legally binding directive
20:06 to combat violence against women and domestic violence.
20:09 Under discussion for years. It's the first ever EU law of its kind.
20:13 To find out exactly what could change for women across Europe, we can take a listen now to Eugenia Rodriguez Palop.
20:19 She's a Spanish MEP working on this file.
20:22 We have managed to incorporate in the prevention chapter that states are obliged to initiate educational campaigns
20:31 so that people internalise that sex without consent is rape.
20:38 We only have two laws on gender-based violence in the European Union, in Spain and Sweden.
20:43 This means that for the rest of women, life is going to change dramatically.
20:47 There are a lot of prevention measures.
20:49 There are coordination, support and assistance measures that will be applied to all victims.
20:54 They are waiting for us.
20:55 Eugenia Rodriguez Palop there. Have you been following this news, Heather?
21:01 And what is your reaction? Because at the moment, I think it's a different situation, of course,
21:05 now in each member state when it comes to this gender-based violence.
21:08 Yes, it's the unevenness across member states where, as a woman, your rights are protected so much better
21:14 in some member states than others.
21:16 If you were a victim of rape, you get much better services, you get much better treatment.
21:21 And that's why it's really important that in addition to the legal side,
21:25 there's what the MEP there was just saying about education campaign, that no means no and yes means yes.
21:31 And being really, really clear about that and that that should be what is there in the most
21:36 intimate of settings, very clear consent.
21:38 Sylvia, now the laws are all over the place in all the different member states.
21:42 As you said, rape is only considered rape in some countries if there's violence as well included.
21:46 I mean, could this law potentially one day have a better impact and have a more unified approach across Europe?
21:52 It's great to see that the EU is trying to make, like equalize a little bit the rules across the EU.
21:59 And the debate, I have to say, was a little bit depressing and frustrating
22:04 because looking at what should be something that's so obvious that sex with consent is rape
22:10 and that should be in law and how challenging it has been even to reach a result that is still an important step forward,
22:17 but still not where women need to be, especially looking now at the elections,
22:21 at those parties and politicians who really very often use women's rights and women's protection
22:27 as good campaign material, as slogan.
22:29 I just want to say this was a great opportunity for them to show that they can actually walk the talk.
22:34 Well, on that issue, on that definition of rape, they didn't manage to come to an agreement,
22:38 but the European Women's Lobby, so an organization who's been pushing for this law for decades,
22:42 were pleased that at least there was some sort of a breakthrough, but they're still hesitant about it.
22:47 We can take a listen now to Irina Rosales on her take.
22:50 It is absolutely the first step.
22:53 We need to be sure that the implementation is done together with women's organizations.
22:57 There is a review clause that has been included so that we can continue our call to get rape recognized as an offense
23:07 and harmonized at the EU level, which has been the big loss in this negotiation.
23:12 I think that there has been a resistance to look at violence against women from this structural perspective.
23:20 So it's not a private issue. It's a structural problem that is linked to patriarchy, to misogyny.
23:27 Irina Rosales is there on that big loss, and in fact, your colleague from your party, Frances Fitzgerald,
23:32 she's the Irish MEP who was leading on this file.
23:35 She said there's still unfinished business here to protect women from violence.
23:39 Are you disappointed with the outcome here?
23:41 Yeah, well, OK, we have moved forward, but it has been a funny, interesting episode,
23:47 because I would say there is a kind of agreement on principle.
23:51 All the countries more or less have signed the Istanbul Convention last year,
23:55 and now you have Germany and France kind of putting the subsidiarity card,
23:59 meaning that member states should decide on that.
24:02 And it's a relevant discussion, but especially on these topics where there's a consensus,
24:06 you can make it a legal argument, but not a political argument.
24:10 So indeed, unfinished business.
24:12 And just to point out to our viewers, so the bill will criminalise forced marriage and female genital mutilation,
24:17 and it also fills in some legal loopholes in some EU nations on cyber violence,
24:21 including online harassment and stalking.
24:24 Which is incredibly important for mental health of particularly young people online.
24:30 I think the key thing to think about here is this is violence, and it's violence of a sexual nature, but it's violence.
24:37 It's things that people should not be doing to one another, which is what we signed up to with the European Convention on Human Rights.
24:44 And now this is making that much more uniform, much more equalised across the member states,
24:49 so that women are not second-class citizens in some member states.
24:53 I mean, if you look at the stats, Heather, it's quite frightening.
24:57 According to the Fundamental Rights Agency in Vienna,
25:00 one in three women have experienced physical or sexual violence.
25:03 In the EU, one in 20 women have been raped since the age of 15.
25:07 Yeah, and those kinds of stats are so much backed up by, for example, the Me Too movement,
25:12 where as soon as women actually started talking about what they had experienced in their own lives,
25:17 suddenly so much more came to the surface than anybody had dared to report to the police or even to NGOs.
25:25 It's a hidden phenomenon in society if women feel they're not allowed to talk about it openly.
25:31 And having a clear law with a clear definition enables that.
25:35 And it was interesting, Sylvia, because it was mostly women behind that press conference this week in Strasbourg
25:39 and putting their face to this file.
25:42 Of course, and one of the important things that the Me Too movement did as well,
25:46 and I think it's important to notice, especially in the context of a political debate and political spectrum and parties,
25:52 one of the reasons why the movement was so powerful is because it spoke to women everywhere, across geographies,
25:59 it didn't matter the background, it didn't matter where they sat on the political spectrum,
26:03 because that's what your stats are saying, because this happens to women everywhere, regardless of...
26:08 Every setting.
26:09 Exactly.
26:10 And we've seen women on the streets of Europe on this topic.
26:13 I mean, is it something that you discuss a lot in your political group?
26:15 Yeah, obviously, as you already know, and I think the EPP, I'm not representing EPP,
26:21 but nevertheless it has a very clear position on that, actually, on the lines of what we discussed.
26:26 And of course it's an issue, and also it relates to the violence in the family, within the family and all that.
26:32 It's a difficult, challenging discussion.
26:34 And it took a long, long time. There was talks going on for months and months,
26:38 there was countries pushing back on this, some countries weren't in favour of this.
26:42 I think in Poland, due to the change of government, they came on board in the end,
26:46 but it just shows you how much time it took.
26:48 But that's why the power of legislation is so important, because you can see reversals in progress on women's rights.
26:55 Look at what happened under the previous government in Poland,
26:58 where abortion was re-criminalised after having been decriminalised.
27:02 It's perfectly possible, and actually happening in the world, that women's rights are rolled back again.
27:07 So once you've got something in law, it's harder to do that,
27:10 because then the police treat women differently when they come forward with a sexual crime.
27:16 It means that the courts treat them differently. It means that people's attitudes change.
27:20 And that's really the key thing we want to see, the culture to change.
27:24 We'll have to stop you there, but we will come back to that again.
27:26 Thank you so much for your insights. I'm afraid we are out of time.
27:29 But thank you so much for tuning in. As always, stay with us here on Euronews.
27:33 Hi there, and welcome back to Brussels, my love.
27:44 I'm Maeve McMahon, and along with our panel, we're picking apart some of the news stories of the week.
27:49 And one that caught our eye was the European Commission's announcement to sign the biggest space contract in the EU's history.
27:56 Speaking at the European Space Conference this month, the EU Commissioner for Industry, Thierry Prétain,
28:01 said the multi-billion euro deal with industry would be to build a gigantic satellite communications network.
28:07 Known as IRIS-2, it would be the EU's answer to Elon Musk's Starlink.
28:12 That's prodding into space to connect Africa to the rest of the world with high-speed internet,
28:16 and it's also been used by Ukrainian troops on the front line of the war.
28:20 So, Tommy, do you think this master plan will work?
28:22 I think it's a reflection of what we see now, that the sensation that we need to be more,
28:28 Europe needs to be more independent now than normal.
28:30 And so that's a great proposal, but obviously you have a lot of, you know, related challenges.
28:35 That it's very complex, there's a question about funding to form billion, all that,
28:40 and how much international cooperation we need to do.
28:43 Well, I'm wondering, indeed, I mean, can the EU afford this?
28:46 Because the EU is lagging behind in this field compared to, like, China, India, Japan.
28:50 The question of funding, I think, is a really good question,
28:53 and I personally don't know whether the EU can afford this,
28:56 but I think that it's quite interesting to see how massive amounts of money
29:01 seem to be easily unlocked when it comes to something that can have military application,
29:06 while on the other hand it seems so difficult to get money for something that,
29:10 for things that everyone could benefit from.
29:12 Like a heat pump.
29:13 Like a heat pump.
29:14 Like a heat pump, exactly.
29:15 Heather, your take?
29:16 Yeah, the financing side is the tricky thing.
29:18 Now, what I find really interesting about this is how much the debate has changed.
29:21 So 20 years ago, the EU was working on this Galileo project to have the EU's own GPS system,
29:28 and the argument there was, well, you know, we need to have ours,
29:31 we can't just rely on the US or on China.
29:34 And at that point, you know, neoliberalism was still the rule in economics,
29:39 and there were lots of people going, no, no, of course we can rely on the Americans,
29:43 these are our friends, they're our NATO allies, they've always come and helped us out in the wars,
29:48 so we can rely on the US technology.
29:50 You know, Galileo, it's the CAP in space.
29:52 It's a big European subsidy programme that benefits some member states,
29:56 it's a luxury we can't afford.
29:58 Whereas by now, we're so much more concerned now about strategic autonomy,
30:02 not relying on China, for example, through 5G, and not relying on the US anymore,
30:07 because Trump might come back, we've seen what happened the last time,
30:11 and so there's a lot more interest in this kind of big project.
30:14 And our budget is much lower, in fact, when you talk about the US,
30:17 the US space agency NASA, they have 27 billion, I believe, at their disposal,
30:21 whereas here, the European Space Agency only has 7.8.
30:24 But I just wanted to bring in a space expert and a former government advisor on space and on the army,
30:32 Arthur de Liderckerke, to get his thoughts on Elon Musk's Starlink and the EU master plan to counter it.
30:38 There are very worrying aspects to this project.
30:40 Just the sheer scale, size of the constellation that he's projecting to have up there
30:45 in the tens of thousands of satellites means there are very real risks he is creating purposefully
30:52 by increasingly congesting and crowding low-Earth orbits,
30:57 and by that very fact, heightening collision risks for other assets in space,
31:01 as well as, of course, creating some concerns as regards dependencies
31:07 and as regards monopolistic tendencies that his project may have.
31:11 I think it's part of Europe's agenda to both stake its claim in the new space race,
31:16 ensure it has real estate, and of course, stay a relevant player in this increasingly strategic,
31:22 competitive domain through sovereign, autonomous capabilities.
31:26 The interesting thing that the EU could think about is investing in this kind of innovation and R&D,
31:32 not necessarily only with military applications.
31:35 I mean, NASA, remember, works a lot also with the Defense Department.
31:40 A lot of the innovation which has created things like GPS and so on came out of military research funded by the U.S. government.
31:49 But in Europe, we could target this towards non-military applications.
31:52 We will have to leave it for another day, I'm afraid, but thank you so much for coming into us here,
31:57 and thank you so much for watching.
31:59 If you want to read more, in fact, about space, we have a whole section on Euronews called "Ask Space,"
32:04 so you can take a little read there.
32:06 But for now, thank you so much for watching.
32:08 If you want to reach out with any comments or any proposals for topics,
32:11 our email address is brusselsmylove@euronews.com.
32:15 You can also find us on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on TikTok.
32:19 Do reach out. See you soon.
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