Unpacked by AFAR (Podcast): S2, E4: How Travel Can Help Us Grieve
In this week’s episode of Unpacked by AFAR, Erin Hynes—host of the podcast Alpaca My Bags (https://pinatravels.org/alpacamybags/)—shares the powerful ways that travel can help us heal.
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/afki9ef
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/afki9ef
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
Category
🏖
TravelTranscript
00:00 Hey, you're a thoughtful traveler, and we're a thoughtful destination.
00:07 In Asheville, we treasure our natural and wild places here in the stunning Blue Ridge
00:11 Mountains, and we appreciate visitors who share our values of stewardship and sustainability.
00:16 We invite you to explore the cultural legacies shaped by these high mountain peaks.
00:21 Be our guest.
00:22 Together, we can share adventures and preserve the natural beauty of Asheville.
00:27 Learn more at exploreasheville.com.
00:29 We turn to travel for a thousand different things.
00:41 Connection, adventure, vacation, learning, family, the list goes on.
00:47 One element of life and travel we don't often discuss is grief.
00:51 But today, we're going to.
00:54 I'm Aislinn Green, Associate Director of Podcasts here at AFAR, and this is Unpacked,
00:59 the show that unpacks a tricky topic in travel every week.
01:03 And this week, we're handing things over to Erin Hines, host of Alpaca My Bags, a podcast
01:08 about responsible travel.
01:10 Now, Erin doesn't shy away from difficult subjects on her show.
01:15 But when we were talking recently, she mentioned that she has a personal story about travel
01:19 and grief, one that she hasn't shared before.
01:23 Every one of us has or will be grieving something or someone at some point in our lives.
01:29 I've certainly had my fair share, and I'm sure you have as well.
01:33 But until Erin brought it up, I hadn't really thought much about using travel as a tool
01:37 to navigate some of those more challenging times in life.
01:42 So today, she'll be sharing her story and talking with two people with very different
01:46 experiences around grief.
01:49 It brought me some comfort and solace and even inspiration, and I hope it does the same
01:53 for you.
01:55 Here's Erin.
02:01 For most of my life, flying was something that excited me.
02:06 I would walk through the airport with my headphones in, feeling like a main character in a movie.
02:13 As I buckled into my seat on the plane, I'd excitedly text my parents to tell them I was
02:18 about to take off.
02:20 I was always one of those people who didn't sleep on planes.
02:23 I mean, how can you sleep when you're busy anticipating future adventures?
02:29 But in 2016, that changed.
02:32 For the first time in my life, I was not excited to fly.
02:38 It was February 11th, my birthday, and I was boarding a flight from Toronto to Cuba to
02:44 Veradero.
02:47 I held back tears as I walked onto the plane because 13 days earlier, my friend Jordan
02:52 had passed away.
03:01 Jordan and I had met working in an Italian pizzeria.
03:05 We quickly bonded over our love of trash reality TV and our love of travel.
03:12 Jordan was sweet and incredibly kind.
03:15 He could make anyone laugh, and he gave the absolute best hugs.
03:21 He loved a good book, and he also loved a good Negroni.
03:26 We could talk for hours sitting in Clintons on Bloor Street in Toronto.
03:31 We'd sit there swapping stories about the places we'd been, and we would dream together
03:35 about the places we both could go in the future.
03:42 Flying to Cuba was meant to be exciting.
03:44 I had always loved traveling for my birthday because, of course, what better way to celebrate?
03:50 But instead of the usual anticipation, all I felt was grief.
03:55 That grief had hit me like a truck.
03:58 Jordan's death was sudden and unexpected, and so I'd been plunged into a total state
04:03 of shock.
04:05 In the two weeks leading up to the flight, I had struggled to get out of bed, to eat,
04:10 to talk, I was experiencing panic attacks, and I was barely sleeping.
04:16 I'd thought about canceling the trip to Cuba.
04:19 It was booked months before with another friend.
04:23 But as departure day inched closer, I told him there was no way that I could go.
04:34 But that friend challenged me.
04:36 They said, "I think traveling will be good for you.
04:40 It will help you heal."
04:44 This idea that travel can help us heal from grief isn't new.
04:49 In my community of travel influencers and bloggers, I see it all the time.
04:54 Many travelers I know admit that they sometimes turn to travel as a way to escape.
05:01 When you think about it, travel literally is an escape.
05:05 You physically move yourself to a different location, leaving something behind.
05:12 But grief can't be left behind.
05:15 Our emotional and mental state isn't something we can escape, no matter how far we fly.
05:22 As I boarded that plane to Veradero, I knew I wasn't going to escape the reality that
05:26 Jordan was gone.
05:28 But I was hopeful that maybe, just maybe, travel would help me experience happiness
05:34 and joy again.
05:36 I was hopeful that it would help me find a way to balance loss with life.
05:45 Grief is a natural part of humanity.
05:48 But what is grief, really?
05:51 Is travel a way for us to cope with it?
05:54 And is it healthy to turn to travel in these moments?
06:00 To unpack these questions, we'll chat with psychotherapist Zach Schrader and podcaster
06:05 Andrew Stephen.
06:06 We'll explore experiences of grief and travel, and learn about traditions of grieving from
06:12 around the world.
06:15 I first contacted Zach Schrader, my friend, who's also a registered psychotherapist in
06:21 Toronto, Canada.
06:23 I wanted to ask him how he would define grief and about his personal experiences with it.
06:29 I think a lot of people think that grief is a reaction to a death, which is true.
06:35 But I like to articulate it as a very subjective reaction to a loss that you have.
06:42 And it often manifests in anguish, and it can cause a lot of symptoms, let's say.
06:47 So distress is one of them.
06:51 Maybe separation anxiety, especially with death or something like divorce.
06:55 It can be a deep yearning.
06:56 It can be kind of a fixation on the past a little bit that kind of prevents you from
07:00 being in the present.
07:01 And it can manifest in a lot of different ways that are concerning, like, for example,
07:07 self-neglect.
07:08 We hear a lot of times people not looking after themselves while they're grieving.
07:12 It can have a lot of physical symptoms, like heart problems or difficulty breathing sometimes,
07:17 panic attacks.
07:18 It depends on who it's happening to and where people are in their lives.
07:23 There are a lot of experts out there who would characterize grief as kind of like a protective
07:27 process that has evolved along with us humans.
07:31 It's something that allows us to continue on with life in a lot of ways as well.
07:35 I often look at it sometimes as a traumatic life event, like we're talking about trauma
07:39 and how to, as a therapist, be with someone as they have experienced trauma and to help
07:44 them work through it.
07:45 From your experience, what is the feeling of it?
07:48 I think for me, grief manifested most in terms of a divorce that I went through.
07:55 And that was really challenging because it's not just something you're saying goodbye to.
08:01 You're also saying goodbye to the construct that you've sort of built for yourself in
08:05 your own mind and your heart, about what your future looks like and how you do that future
08:10 and who you do it with.
08:12 And so it's not just losing a person, but it's losing an idea of who you are and how
08:16 you spend your life.
08:17 That was really challenging for me.
08:19 It kind of just left a big blank for me.
08:22 And it took quite a long time to kind of work through.
08:24 And I would say travel helped a lot with that.
08:27 But in my experience, it's very much like, how do I envision a future for myself now?
08:33 And how do I find hope in that?
08:34 Have you ever turned to travel as a way to cope with grief or with loss?
08:39 Oh, yeah.
08:40 When I was going through my life changing as a result of divorce, for example, I think
08:45 that it helped me hone in on a purpose.
08:49 In light of that whole construct I built for myself, I didn't really have anything.
08:53 So kind of latching on to something like travel was really meaningful for me in that moment.
08:58 It's kind of like a good band-aid in a lot of ways.
09:01 It helped me in the moment when I was feeling really sensitive and overwhelmed.
09:05 It also, I think, helped calm a lot of the angst I was feeling in light of what had happened
09:10 and the sadness I was feeling.
09:12 It's a really wonderful thing for me, at least, to contextualize yourself in a really big,
09:18 beautiful, nuanced world and to realize that you're actually not that significant.
09:24 I think that can depress some people, but for me it's quite empowering.
09:27 It shows me that my grief is not the size of the world.
09:31 It's not that big.
09:32 It's important and it requires a lot of work to get through.
09:36 But it made it feel less overwhelming.
09:38 I was able to focus on what was around me.
09:40 And it just makes you feel connected.
09:42 I don't know, travel just makes me feel connected to the world a lot.
09:45 And that connection, in light of one being broken, was really liberating for me.
09:51 And two, my former partner and I, we traveled a lot.
09:55 And that was one of the things that I really enjoyed doing.
09:57 And so I was worried that it wouldn't be something that I could do again in the same way.
10:02 And so it was kind of teaching myself that life can go on in the way you want it to,
10:07 and that's okay, and to make peace with that.
10:09 [Music]
10:14 Zach's story of traveling after divorce is relatable to me.
10:19 Although what we were specifically grieving in those moments of our lives was different,
10:24 the benefits that travel brought us are pretty similar.
10:28 After Jordan passed away, I remember feeling like life had just stopped.
10:34 But just like Zach, travel gave me a purpose.
10:38 Eating salsa with our Cuban homestay hosts in Vinales, for example,
10:42 reminded me in a tangible way that life and joy could continue.
10:50 My grief, in the context of our big, beautiful world, was so small.
10:56 Maybe this sounds silly.
10:58 At home in Toronto, could I not see that life would continue as I grappled with grief?
11:03 The difference was that at home, I could see my grief in everything around me.
11:09 I saw it in my apartment, where Jordan and I had hung out.
11:13 I saw it in my favorite cafe, where we'd sometimes gone for breakfast,
11:18 in the restaurant where we always ordered Negronis.
11:21 And I saw it in the faces of my friends, who were also grieving Jordan.
11:27 So in a way, travel was a distraction.
11:30 I think a lot of people view distraction as somewhat negative.
11:33 Like our teachers in school always told us, "You're so distracted, that's so bad."
11:38 But I mean, distraction is a very common intervention for depression, for example.
11:43 Of course it is for grief.
11:44 It's OK to distract yourself from pain.
11:48 You don't always have to sit there with it all the time.
11:50 It's OK to distract yourself and let the sort of natural healing process happen.
11:55 Backpacking Cuba after Jordan passed away was definitely a distraction,
12:00 especially compared to being at home in Toronto.
12:03 But there were moments every day when even travel couldn't distract me.
12:09 I found myself telling other travelers I met about what I was going through.
12:14 I didn't know these other travelers at all, but they always listened,
12:18 sometimes giving me a hug or telling me that they'd been through loss as well.
12:23 It's a testament to that universal experience that we all on this earth have when we lose something.
12:29 And I think that's an important aspect of traveling while grieving,
12:34 is anyone from any culture in any language understands what it feels like to lose something really important.
12:41 And to have that comfort extended to you anywhere can be profoundly healing, for sure.
12:50 A few months after traveling Cuba, I set out on a nine-month journey through Asia.
12:56 I so clearly remember the first New Year's Eve, nearly one full year after Jordan's death.
13:03 I was celebrating with my partner in the streets of Tokyo.
13:06 We had been drinking sake and champagne with local folks we'd met in a microbar.
13:11 I was so happy, but I was simultaneously sad.
13:18 I could travel to the other side of the world, but I couldn't escape the memories of the New Year's Eve prior,
13:24 which was one of the last times I'd seen Jordan before he passed.
13:29 During those months traveling Asia, I found that my own grief made me acutely aware of other people's grief.
13:38 I found myself noticing in detail the rituals and traditions around death that I was encountering in other cultures.
13:48 Varanasi is one of the world's oldest and holiest cities, and it's known as the place that people come to from all over the world
13:56 to pray, bathe in the holy river Ganges, and even to die.
14:02 Hindus believe that if the ashes of a person are laid in the Ganges at Varanasi,
14:07 their soul will be transported to heaven and escape the cycle of rebirth.
14:12 Bodies are paraded through the streets of the city, dressed in colors, and then cremated at ghats that are all along the edge of the holy river.
14:21 My partner and I spent several days in Varanasi, and we walked down to the ghats to see the cremations.
14:28 Watching them, it wasn't fire that captured my attention.
14:33 It was the families that were there to send off their loved one.
14:37 Hearing people wail as their person burned, it was impossible not to feel their sadness.
14:44 A few years after my travels through Asia, I went to Mexico City during the Day of the Dead.
14:56 This annual holiday is celebrated on November 1st and November 2nd of every year.
15:03 The holiday combines the ancient Aztec custom of celebrating deceased loved ones with All Souls Day,
15:10 a holiday that Spanish invaders brought to Mexico in the early 1500s.
15:16 There are many traditions surrounding this holiday, but there's one in particular that I love.
15:22 On the night of the Day of the Dead, families go to their local cemetery to visit their loved ones who have passed.
15:29 It's almost like a big family reunion.
15:33 People of all ages and generations gather around the tombstones,
15:38 lighting candles, decorating graves, eating, and drinking.
15:43 On that trip, I went walking through a cemetery on the night of Day of the Dead.
15:48 The entire cemetery glowed with the light of thousands of lit candles,
15:53 and it felt so alive with the energy of happy families.
15:58 What I realized is that Day of the Dead in Mexico is an annual opportunity to remember,
16:04 talk about, and celebrate people who've passed.
16:09 I think that not only makes death as a concept less scary, but it normalizes long-term grief.
16:19 In India, Mexico, and other countries I've traveled over the years,
16:23 learning about traditions of death as I worked through my own grief was formative.
16:29 Watching cremations in Varanasi validated my anguish.
16:34 It reminded me that it's okay to feel and show grief, even in public.
16:40 And seeing cemetery celebrations in Mexico City reminded me that grief doesn't always have to feel sad.
16:47 Sometimes it may come in the form of a story or a happy memory of a person.
16:55 While travel itself has helped me in my ongoing process of healing,
16:59 experiences and learning that have come from seeing how death is treated globally
17:03 have helped to shift my mindset.
17:07 Mainly, I've realized that while we have traditions around grief,
17:10 there isn't a right or a wrong way to grieve.
17:15 Death rituals can be based on our culture, our beliefs, or our spirituality.
17:21 Although our traditions are shaped by various factors, one thing is true.
17:26 Each and every one of us has the freedom to create our own traditions.
17:31 And for some of us, travel might be the tradition or ritual that leads to healing after loss.
17:37 [Music]
17:50 Are you inspired to travel in a more responsible way?
17:54 In Asheville, North Carolina, we believe in the power of ethical travel.
17:58 We care about the protection of our distinctive natural and cultural treasures in these Blue Ridge Mountains.
18:05 And we appreciate visitors who share our values of stewardship and sustainability.
18:10 We know travel is transformational, and we invite you to be inspired by the creative spirit
18:15 and local flavors of our mountain home.
18:18 Be our guest!
18:19 Together, we can share adventures and preserve the natural beauty of Asheville,
18:23 so future generations can enjoy these mountains for years to come.
18:28 Learn more at exploreasheville.com
18:30 [Music]
18:54 Travel, of course, comes in many different forms.
18:58 For some people, it means hopping on a plane to fly across the world to big, bustling cities.
19:04 But it can also mean hopping in your car to drive out into nature
19:08 and barking on a backpacking trip through forests and mountains.
19:12 The latter is what Andrew Stephen, host of the podcast Trail Wait,
19:16 found himself doing as he navigated grief.
19:20 You know, I think a lot of people have been going through some hard times the last few years,
19:25 and I am no exception.
19:28 In 2019, my mom passed away, and then two years later, my brother passed away.
19:36 What I found interesting about the two is, because they were so close together,
19:44 without planning to, I found myself sort of comparing each of them.
19:48 And with my mom, she had been battling cancer.
19:51 And so, if death can be expected or grief can be expected, hers felt that way.
19:58 Whereas my brothers sort of had a very quickly, rapidly escalating medical situation.
20:06 And so, it was unexpected.
20:07 And so, two sides of the same coin sort of thing.
20:11 They felt very different, and my experience with each was very different.
20:16 So, I wanted to talk a little bit about how you have coped with your grief.
20:21 I know a little bit about that because I have listened to your podcast.
20:24 But for people who haven't, what's something that you've turned to that has helped you?
20:29 >> Yeah, so after my mom died, it wasn't because she died, but it did coincide
20:36 that I would be embarking on a month-long backpacking trip through the Sierra Nevada
20:42 Mountains in California.
20:44 And when you're in nature, when you're hiking, when you're outside,
20:50 those things are-- you can't not be in the moment.
20:55 Because like the analogy I always go to is when you're hiking on dirt, on loose gravel,
21:03 just being conscious of how your feet step and move and twist and turn,
21:09 it's forcing you to be present in that moment.
21:12 And it can be hard to think about other things.
21:16 And if you do, that's when accidents happen.
21:18 That's when you trip.
21:19 That's when you fall.
21:20 That's when you take the wrong turn.
21:22 And so by default, a lot of people find themselves-- I find myself being hyper in the moment.
21:28 And then throw in the fact that I just went on this backpacking trip and was miles away
21:35 from the nearest town, days away from the nearest town, miles away from the nearest road.
21:39 You have a lot of time to think and be alone with your thoughts.
21:44 And so one of the things I've taken from that experience is you don't need to go on a month-long
21:50 backpacking trip.
21:51 But there is something very real about just getting outside, being in your body, moving
21:57 around.
21:57 I got to talk with a lot of really cool people.
22:01 And I talked with people who were studying nature's effect on the body.
22:05 And they just talked about the air you're breathing is cleaner because the leaves and
22:10 stuff are cleaning everything.
22:11 The way even that sunlight affects our bodies, we've heard that cliche a million times before,
22:17 how light and filtered light through shadows and through leaves can affect us.
22:22 Literally, the color green can affect us.
22:24 These are all things that subconsciously I didn't know were happening, but were helping
22:28 my body along with the things I was aware of, like being hyper-focused, being hyper-present.
22:33 - I wonder if there is an escapism aspect to it for you.
22:37 Because something I've noticed about myself is like--
22:39 - 100%.
22:40 - I turn to travel, not just when I'm grieving the loss of a person, but in the past grieving
22:45 relationships or grieving periods of my life, I have turned to travel.
22:50 It's my go-to coping mechanism.
22:53 And I think a lot of it is admittedly because escaping the routine of my daily life helps
22:59 me reset, in a sense.
23:01 So going out to nature, do you experience that as well?
23:04 - Yeah, I'm 100% the type of person who thinks the next thing will fix all my problems.
23:11 I just bought a new microwave and I'm convinced once it arrives in the mail, everything's
23:17 gonna be great.
23:18 I want to one day have a cabin in the woods somewhere and I'm nowhere close to making
23:23 that a reality.
23:24 But probably later this afternoon, I'm gonna be on some website scrolling, looking at like,
23:29 "Ooh, that's a fun one that I can't even afford."
23:32 So I do think there's 100% an escapism thing happening for me.
23:37 There's a big part of it that's a distraction.
23:41 And that goes back to what we were talking about a little bit earlier, where it's like,
23:44 I do think some of this distraction, for lack of a better word, it's good, it's healthy.
23:48 Like, you don't want to take all this in one blow.
23:52 Like, it's a lot, it's heavy.
23:54 You can't carry it all in one go.
23:55 And so spreading it out over time, finding moments to be distracted, it's that balance
24:00 that's so true in so many areas of life, of just finding the moments to be in it, finding
24:06 the moments to get away and escape, finding the moments to process, finding the moments
24:10 to forget, finding the moments to remember.
24:13 There are moments when I still go like, "Oh, I should ask my mom that.
24:17 She'll know the answer."
24:18 And it's bittersweet.
24:23 I mean, there's no other way to say it.
24:24 It's bittersweet.
24:25 There's a sadness when I realize, "Oh, I can't ask her those questions anymore."
24:30 But there's also a sweetness in knowing that I'm still thinking of her as if she is here.
24:36 - Yeah.
24:36 It's funny that you say that, because especially for my friend who passed away, and for my
24:42 Oma, travel is actually just, it was a big part of those relationships, both those relationships.
24:48 For my Oma, especially the last few years of her life when she was living in long-term
24:53 care, I was in a period of a lot of travel.
24:56 I was going to many countries a year, and I traveled for almost a year straight during
25:01 that period.
25:02 And I sent her a postcard from every single location I went to.
25:06 And I remember when I came back from that big trip, going to see her and just stacked
25:12 on her bedside table were like 100 postcards that I had sent her.
25:17 And so now I find when I travel, I always think about this.
25:21 So I almost think about her more when I'm traveling than I do at home, because I'll
25:25 be in a place and I'll think like, "Oh, I would love to send Oma a postcard."
25:29 And even though I can't, just like you've said, the fact that I think about this and
25:33 have this memory tied to her feels nice.
25:36 It feels special.
25:37 - Well, yeah, and in some way that is you sending a postcard.
25:41 - Yeah.
25:42 - It may not be literal, but it is.
25:44 - Yeah.
25:45 In wrapping up my chat with Andrew, I wanted to know how hiking has helped him in healing
25:51 from the loss of his mother, his brother, and other moments of grief.
25:56 - Grief is this confusion of not knowing why or what or how or what this means.
26:03 And so I feel like I've controlled something.
26:08 I sort of get that serotonin boost or whatever, but I also become okay with the unknown chaos
26:14 because there's no way to avoid it when you're in nature.
26:17 - Yeah.
26:18 - Yeah.
26:19 Don't let traveling or the cost or the difficulty or the planning needed and necessary or to be
26:28 able to have time off, et cetera, to travel be the thing that keeps you from getting outside.
26:33 Because truly, I do think that just getting outside, like I said, going around the block,
26:39 getting some fresh air, finding just a city park.
26:42 There's some sort of state park or national park that's within an hour or two drive for most of us.
26:48 Like, but even the park that's down the street from where you live, like that is a huge thing to
26:54 do.
26:55 So don't let the idealized romantic Instagram version be the enemy of the thing that you can
27:02 actually do and accomplish right now today.
27:04 That being said, if you have the means, the ability to, like traveling, the more you can get
27:09 out of your comfort zone and still feel safe and okay, I just think it's the more you're going to
27:14 have these big experiences where you are constantly toggling back and forth between feeling in
27:20 control and feeling chaotic.
27:22 - Yeah, I like that.
27:23 It doesn't need to be grandiose.
27:25 Like regardless of how grandiose it is, it'll have the same effect.
27:29 A few years after Jordan died, I sat in the courtyard of a Riyadh in Fez, Morocco
27:40 with my big blue backpack.
27:42 A few other travelers shuffled in, sitting across from me, and one of them mentioned that
27:48 they loved my pack.
27:49 I looked up smiling and explained how the pack had belonged to a dear friend of mine
27:55 who also loved to travel.
27:56 Now that he's gone, I explained I take it with me sometimes so that his spirit can continue
28:04 traveling too.
28:05 Over the years since Jordan died, his backpack continued to travel.
28:11 Thanks to an online group, friends and family have passed Jordan's backpack around, bringing
28:16 the bag and Jordan's memory on world adventures.
28:19 Jordan's backpack has been to Vietnam, Nicaragua, the Netherlands, Ireland, and all around Canada
28:27 and the US.
28:35 As we've learned from Zach and Andrew, travel can be a means to navigate all kinds of grief
28:41 and in all kinds of ways.
28:43 For some, it might be a way to escape or to distract, and for others it can be a way to
28:50 find joy again.
28:51 For me, it's been all those things and more.
28:54 When Jordan first died, backpacking through Cuba helped me to start my healing journey.
29:02 But over time, travel evolved into a way to memorialize him.
29:06 Now when I travel, I often think of him.
29:10 And when I do, I always try to find a place to order a Negroni in his honor.
29:16 I love that.
29:23 Here's to Jordan.
29:25 Thank you, Aaron, for sharing your story.
29:29 If you'd like to hear more from Aaron, follow Alpaca My Bags on your favorite podcast platform.
29:34 You can also explore her website, pinatravels.org, and follow her adventures on Instagram, TikTok,
29:41 and Twitter.
29:42 Her handle is @pinatravels.
29:44 We'll link to it all in our show notes.
29:46 Ready for more unpacking?
29:49 Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter.
29:53 The magazine is @afarmedia.
29:57 If you enjoyed today's exploration, I hope you'll come back for more great stories.
30:01 Subscribing makes this easy.
30:04 You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.
30:09 And be sure to rate and review the show.
30:12 It helps other travelers find it.
30:13 This season, we also want to hear from you.
30:17 Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you'd like us to explore?
30:22 Drop us a line at afar.com/feedback or email us at unpacked@afar.com.
30:27 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.
30:31 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Galteland.
30:35 Music composition by Chris Collin.
30:37 And remember, the world is complicated.
30:39 We're here to help you unpack it.
30:44 [END]