World View | Catch Greed & Fear champion Christopher Wood as he highlights the prospects of Indian market, from a global perspective, in an exclusive conversation with Niraj Shah. #BQLive
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00:00 Thanks for tuning into Worldview.
00:04 I'm your host, Neeraj Shah.
00:06 Our guest today recently wrote, and I quote in one of his newsletters, that "Higher for
00:10 longer is undoubtedly this year's silly season theme."
00:14 And he also believes that equity markets still face significant competition from the risk-free
00:18 rate of 5, 5.5% in the case of the US.
00:22 At a point of time when we are at top 20,000 on the Nifty, how does he see the world of
00:30 risk assets around us?
00:32 It's our absolute delight to have in Christopher Wood, he's Global Head of Equity Strategy
00:36 at Jeffries, joins us right now from his mobile office.
00:39 Chris, so good of you to take the time out.
00:41 Thanks for joining us.
00:42 Very good to see you.
00:43 Yep.
00:44 Likewise, the feeling is entirely mutual.
00:46 Chris, how do you...
00:48 Let me start off with the big elephant in the room.
00:51 Since the last four years, central banks in some way or the other, or probably the most
00:56 prominent way, driven what risk assets do.
00:59 At this point of time, with there being a bit of uncertainty around what will happen
01:03 to inflation, stroke interest rates, how do you see central banking action and how do
01:08 you see that impacting risk assets?
01:10 Well, in the case of the Federal Reserve you're talking about, yeah?
01:15 Largely.
01:16 Well, the Federal Reserve has clearly been talking tough and acting tough.
01:20 They've raised rates more than anybody I believe would have predicted a couple of years ago,
01:25 myself included.
01:26 But the context of this was the huge monetary expansion committed to by the Fed in 2020
01:35 in the context of the outbreak of the pandemic.
01:37 For some reason, the Federal Reserve thought that printing lots of money was a good way
01:41 to address a pandemic.
01:43 The result was that you got a surge in inflation for the first time really since the late '70s.
01:50 The Fed did not understand that creating a lot of money supply, the biggest broad expansion
01:56 of M2 growth for decades was going to result in inflation.
01:59 So the Fed was caught by surprise.
02:02 So the Fed is now engaged in an exercise to try and restore its institutional credibility.
02:08 And hence, the Fed is very reluctant to signal an end of tightening until it sees a material
02:13 weakness in the labor market.
02:16 So on that point, it's interesting that the US economy has defied these recession predictions.
02:23 But one technical point to be aware of is that we had this huge monetary expansion.
02:30 In the last year or two, M2 growth is collapsing.
02:33 But it's collapsing from a very high base.
02:37 So in terms of the pre-COVID trend, we are still above trend on M2 relative to nominal
02:44 GDP ratio.
02:46 Although we're getting nearer and nearer trend.
02:48 And if the ongoing decline continues, we should be below trend by early next year, which means
02:54 the liquidity tightening will start to really impact.
02:58 So what I'm really saying is too early to conclude that the US economy can avoid a downturn
03:03 because of the monetary tightening, which has been ongoing.
03:07 But you reckon that in a higher for longer scenario, if that is indeed the presumption
03:11 that I guessed from your note.
03:13 Although that's the presumption of the market for now, absolutely.
03:16 In that presumption, can the US engineer a soft lending even if there is a downturn?
03:21 And what does it mean for risk assets?
03:22 Now, the market thinks the US can engineer a soft downturn right now.
03:26 So the last employment data was almost Goldilocks because it was a bit weaker, but nothing drastic.
03:32 But I'm saying it's too early to conclude that.
03:35 But the difference between the US equity market and the Indian equity market is in my view,
03:41 in the US there is still a material risk of recession going into 2024 as indicated by
03:47 the inverted yield curve and many other factors.
03:50 Credit growth has turned down in the US, same story in Europe.
03:53 Whereas in India, I have no concern about a recession.
03:57 So the only concern I have in India is if the US market falls is correlation.
04:04 What about the fact that dollar index seems to be strengthening, oil prices seem to be
04:09 higher.
04:10 What's your view when it comes to global risk assets and India as well?
04:13 Well, dollar index will keep strengthening so long as we're in the higher for longer
04:16 mode.
04:17 But my working assumption is that the moment we see some real employment market weakness,
04:24 which in my view should be coming, then in my view, the Fed will then be put in a situation
04:30 where it has to decide between its two mandates, that is employment and inflation, assuming
04:37 inflation is still about 2% year on year.
04:40 And my base case when presented with that challenge or that dilemma, my base case until
04:45 proven wrong is the Fed will focus on the employment mandate, not the inflation mandate.
04:53 That will then send a signal to the world markets that the Fed is not going to actually
04:58 really enforce that 2% target, which will then send a signal that inflation may end
05:02 up being structurally higher, which will then lead to a sell off in treasury bonds, weakness
05:09 in the dollar, but that would be more positive for secular equities.
05:16 Near term though, the oil price is clearly an issue both for the Fed, the markets and
05:22 indeed for India, if it keeps rising here.
05:25 Yeah.
05:26 And you reckon, I mean, you write about that a lot as well.
05:29 You reckon that we are in the higher for longer scenario for crude oil as well?
05:32 Well, I think on oil, there's a fundamental supply constraint, which is a combination
05:37 of several factors.
05:38 First and foremost, we've had an ongoing attack on fossil fuels from the growing power of
05:44 the green lobby in recent years, which has sent the signal to fossil fuel companies not
05:49 to invest in oil exploration.
05:51 So that's one fundamental reality.
05:55 The second point is that the US shale looks like, based on what I've been told, that it's
06:00 peaked out in the sense of the best areas already being geologically exploited, which
06:05 means the practical consequence is that OPEC is now the swing producer again, or OPEC plus,
06:12 I should say, most particularly Saudi.
06:15 So they clearly are trying to control supply.
06:19 So the key issue is really what price they're comfortable with.
06:23 Maybe it's where we are today, I don't know.
06:27 But they're the swing producer in the market.
06:29 So unless we have a US and European-- the biggest risk for oil right now is European
06:36 recession triggering demand destruction.
06:39 Otherwise, I think the direction of oil is up.
06:42 The reason oil was weak in the first half of this year may surprise people.
06:47 The common conventional wisdom is oil was weak because the Chinese economy was weak.
06:53 But actually, the data shows that the Chinese demand for oil is back well above pre-pandemic
06:58 levels.
06:59 So actually, the reason the oil price was weak, in my view, in the first half of this
07:03 year was that the Biden administration continued to take oil out of the US strategic reserve,
07:11 even though it said it was going to do the opposite at the beginning of this year.
07:16 But this quarter, they've stopped taking the oil out, selling the oil because it's getting
07:20 to very historically low levels.
07:23 And that's coincided with the pickup in oil.
07:27 But for the Fed, the problem will be if oil rises, let's say, theoretically 110, 120,
07:34 that is likely to cause inflation expectations to rise.
07:38 Then the Fed will no longer be able to say inflation expectations are well anchored.
07:43 And then we do have a risk of oil forcing another Fed rate hike.
07:48 So in that environment, everything sells off-- stocks and bonds globally, except oil stocks.
07:55 That's why I continue to advise investors to have some energy stocks as a hedge.
07:59 Yeah, most certainly.
08:01 So in effect, Chris, if indeed there is a bit of a slowdown around the world, that might
08:06 actually be good for risk assets because the Fed will focus on employment.
08:10 Slowdown means oil prices also come up, which is great for economies like India.
08:14 You think that would be the better of the two outcomes?
08:16 No, for emerging market equities, without a doubt.
08:18 Without a doubt.
08:19 Yeah, for emerging market equities, given the sensitivity to a weaker dollar.
08:25 OK.
08:26 The other question is on flows.
08:27 I was reading the Gredient Fear note last week, the one that came out of the one before
08:31 that.
08:32 But you cited at the Asia Forum your experience about how people are tactically, for example,
08:38 constructive on China, while long term they might be constructive on India.
08:43 And you also mentioned about how there is an emergence of ex-China dedicated flows as
08:48 well coming in.
08:50 Could you piece this for us together?
08:52 How would flows versus the appetite for the tactical uptick mean in the near term and
09:00 then over the long term?
09:01 Well, it's now basically, I will look, basically it's now widely understood, I believe, that
09:07 India is a better long term structural story than China.
09:11 That was, that's really always been my view, but that's virtually everybody's view.
09:15 So and obviously that's for the large part, there's lots of reasons for it, but one obviously
09:19 key reason is demographics.
09:20 However, China is a very big part of the emerging market Asian benchmarks.
09:26 Now given all the political issues between US and China, given the precedent of Russia's
09:33 stock market being suddenly essentially cancelled and basically removed from the MSCI index,
09:40 any global emerging market funds or managers are, at the back of their mind, there's a
09:47 small but not zero risk that this could happen with China.
09:53 Because this incident happened with Russia with very little notice.
09:57 So if you were a global emerging market fund, let's say you had 10% of your funds in Russian
10:02 equities, which some did actually, then suddenly you're forced to write these stocks down to
10:08 zero, although they're still trading in Russia and Russia's kicked out of the benchmark.
10:16 So there is a good, for people worried about this and also they find, don't think China's
10:22 as attractive a story, they don't like the size of China in the benchmark, there's a
10:26 growing interest in what has been called global emerging market ex-China mandates.
10:33 And so in many ways, a good approach would be to do that mandate and then for people
10:38 who want to invest in China, you have a separate mandate.
10:41 So this is, I'm not saying this is starting to happen, but this is the discussion.
10:46 Meanwhile, global money has stopped investing in China.
10:50 Money not dedicated to emerging market money, global money which doesn't need to invest
10:56 in China because China's only a small part of the global index.
10:59 So that global money does have the potential to come to India.
11:04 But I would say by and large, most FII money in India today remains dedicated Asian emerging
11:10 market money.
11:13 How does this tie in with the argument around India being an attractive market, but being
11:18 a bit expensive?
11:19 Because that's the common thing that we hear all these years.
11:22 That's the common theme.
11:23 So obviously the track record is that it's paid up to pay for quality in India.
11:29 So structurally, I continue to view India as the most attractive market globally, and
11:35 most certainly most attractive market in the emerging market context.
11:41 Right now, the big caps in India, in my view, are not crazy expensive.
11:45 Actually, they're at kind of mean valuations.
11:48 Obviously the noise here in India this week is that the mid caps are clearly at the expensive
11:54 range.
11:55 You wrote about that.
11:56 Yeah, but I'm hearing that more and more, but that I think reflects the practical reality
12:00 of huge flows into the mutual funds.
12:03 But you see this very dynamic mutual fund industry in India is actually a big long term
12:10 positive because I think it was well demonstrated in the last 18 months during the RBI tightening
12:18 cycle.
12:19 So I came here early 22 for the first time before the pandemic, and most of my colleagues
12:26 were very cautious on the Indian stock market because at that point in early 22, it was
12:31 at peak valuations and the RBI was a bit behind the curve and was just commencing a monetary
12:37 tightening cycle.
12:39 But the stock market throughout the course of that monetary tightening cycle turned out
12:43 to be extremely resilient.
12:44 And I think the key reason for that resilience was domestic flows.
12:49 So actually what happened in reality is the earnings growth caught up with the valuations.
12:54 And so actually the foreigners never got the opportunity to buy India at lower levels they
12:58 were hoping for.
13:00 So while everybody is bullish on India right now, the reality is based on the data we've
13:06 got, they don't appear to be that overweight India.
13:10 When I say they, the foreigners.
13:13 Okay, just one small technical question before I ask some fundamental ones.
13:19 At the period of time pre-March this year for that six month period when there was a
13:23 large FI selling, the fact that they were able to exit what they wanted to without too
13:28 much of damage on the tape, has it gotten, without too much of damage on the pricing,
13:34 has that gotten noticed because a lot of people here believe that that must have been a standout
13:38 feature from an Indian market perspective as well.
13:41 It's quite clear that domestic institutions are more and more important in the Indian
13:45 market.
13:46 And by the way, that's a trend we see elsewhere in many countries in Asia, but India is probably
13:51 the most dramatic example.
13:53 Because the foreigners usually had to sell India suddenly because China suddenly reopened.
13:59 And we had a period of a few weeks when China literally outperformed India, I believe by
14:05 30 percentage points.
14:07 And in that period, China basically went from eight times earnings to 12 times earnings.
14:13 And then boom, a bit of a sell off again.
14:14 Would that happen again, Chris, that if China gives a large stimulus?
14:18 By the way, but by base cases, China is not going to do a large stimulus because that's
14:22 not what President Xi believes in.
14:24 But I mean, we can't write off that possibility completely because he may get out of bed tomorrow
14:30 and decide different.
14:31 But my base case, no large stimulus.
14:33 So we could have a bit of China outperformance if the property market starts to really show
14:40 clear signs of stabilization.
14:42 That's entirely possible.
14:43 I don't think we'll be on the scale of what we had when they suddenly reopened.
14:49 Sure.
14:50 Okay.
14:51 Get the drift.
14:52 You made a reference about India's surprising relationships with some of the other blocks.
14:58 You would have noticed the India, UAE, Europe, US corridor as well.
15:03 What has stood out in this geopolitical alignments that India has made?
15:06 What has impressed you the most?
15:07 Well, yeah.
15:08 So I was in Delhi earlier this week.
15:10 I arrived in Delhi just after the conclusion of the summit.
15:15 And as I wrote in the Greed and Fear, yes, India seems to have been a very strong position
15:21 to have a basic Indian that has a foot in both camps.
15:24 Yeah, that was the title.
15:26 Which I think is a very smart place for the Indian government to be.
15:31 And what's clearly got the... what's made people sit up on this G20 summit is that the
15:40 communique on Ukraine is incredibly diluted from what was written at the Bali summit.
15:48 But obviously everybody signed it.
15:50 So this is obviously viewed as a triumph for the Indian prime minister.
15:55 And the very fact that they were willing to dilute it so much, when I say they, the G7,
16:01 really shows you how much they want to have the Indian government on side.
16:05 Because it's become clear since this whole Ukraine thing happened that, for want of a
16:11 better term, because I don't really like it, but the global south has a very more, much
16:16 more nuanced view of this Ukraine conflict than what you hear coming out of Washington,
16:22 Brussels or London.
16:24 And then I think this project, MIPAC, what they call it, the Middle East, the project
16:34 to link Indian subcontinent, Middle East and Europe, is clearly, looks like a counterweight
16:40 to the Chinese BRI.
16:45 So these are very dramatic developments.
16:49 But if you think about it, also you have the BRICS formation, which got a lot of publicity.
16:54 Now Saudi and UAE and some others have been invited to join BRICS.
16:59 So the question is, are they actually going to join?
17:03 Everybody's assuming they're going to join.
17:04 So if they are joining, that's more than 40% of world oil exports in the BRICS.
17:14 So that gives the BRICS actually huge power.
17:17 Unless you believe everybody's going to stop using oil in the next two years.
17:21 But if I'm India, I'd rather be in the BRICS and not in it.
17:24 That's true.
17:26 So that's my point.
17:27 I think India is in very well positioned in that context.
17:32 And you reckon large global investors are now starting to realize this importance of
17:36 geopolitics from an investing perspective as well?
17:38 I wouldn't have to be because the geopolitics has got quite intense because the US has effectively
17:48 declared economic war against China with this move to deprive China access to advanced semiconductors.
17:55 That's squeezing China where it hurts.
17:59 Now Chris, last three, four questions while you sip on your coffee as well.
18:06 Everyone builds a hypothesis about a place or a market and then they either tend to get
18:11 surprised positively or maybe slightly negatively.
18:14 In your hypothesis for India, because you are constructive India, as I can see from
18:17 all the notes that you've written, is this a base case bullishness that you have?
18:22 Or are you baking in some bit of optimism about what is your base case when it comes
18:27 to the India hypothesis?
18:31 What's been very encouraging, I'm just talking specifically India now, what's very encouraging
18:35 in the last three months in India is we have seen growing anecdotal evidence that finally
18:42 we're getting more evidence of like a private sector, beginning of a private sector capex
18:47 cycle.
18:48 I'm talking in the sort of capped goods area.
18:51 So we're now into our third year of the residential property recovery, which is extremely important
18:59 because that's got all kinds of multiplier consequences for the economy.
19:04 That's after a seven year residential property downturn.
19:09 So I've been hoping that the residential property recovery would lead with a leg to a more pickup
19:15 in private sector capex, which is also what happened in the 2002-2009 cycle.
19:20 And we're beginning to see the evidence of that in terms of increased order flows.
19:24 But actually the best evidence is market evidence.
19:27 The stock, the stocks geared to capital goods have been rallying hard.
19:32 So to me, that's actually the best evidence.
19:35 Although obviously if you're a government official in Delhi, that might not be to you
19:38 the best evidence.
19:41 But the difference between 2002 and 2009, we've already had a big capex cycle in India
19:47 from the government.
19:50 Because most of these fiscal deficits, the fiscal deficit looks very high, headline number,
19:56 but it's not as bad as it looks in my view, because a large part of that fiscal deficit
20:01 is being driving this infrastructure buildup, which has to have huge multiplier consequences,
20:08 proven efficiencies for the economy at large, just as was the case in China with a huge
20:13 infrastructure buildup.
20:15 Whereas in the US, just to take the example, the US fiscal deficit right now is running
20:21 more than 8% of GDP, which is not so far off the levels it got in the global financial
20:28 crisis, but it's not being driven by big infrastructure buildup like the Indian one was.
20:37 So I think the most hopeful thing here in India right now is the private sector capex,
20:43 showing signs of life.
20:47 And from past cycles or from the assessment that Mahesh and team would be making, you
20:51 reckon that the baton has been passed and private sector capex will come to the fore
20:55 now?
20:56 We think it's being passed, starting to be passed.
20:59 But that would be good news for the government, you see, because the government would like
21:03 to see that, because they'd be making all the running.
21:06 They'd like to see the private sector kick in a bit, then they can ease off on the fiscal
21:11 side.
21:12 Because obviously, they've got right now, if I'm in the Indian government, I've got this
21:18 oil price rising.
21:20 I've got this election next year.
21:23 So when oil was at 70, they probably had more room to adjust things ahead of the election
21:31 than if oil was at 90.
21:34 So yeah, that would be a very healthy development.
21:36 But we have been of the view that we've been hoping for a repeat of the 2002-2009 cycle,
21:45 in the sense that the real estate market picked up first, then it was followed by private
21:50 sector capex, and India actually enjoyed its best out performance in the Asian context
21:57 during that period.
21:59 And obviously, the banking system's cleaned up.
22:02 The corporates are very under leveraged.
22:05 But there's going to be a bit of sitting on the sidelines ahead of the election, although
22:09 everybody's assuming the election is going one way.
22:12 That's true.
22:15 That's true.
22:16 And I was going to come to that as well.
22:18 But just before that, just the point on this private sector capex and real estate cycle,
22:22 because it helps that the private sector capex would be coming at a point of time when the
22:26 real estate cycle is running concurrently, right?
22:29 You were amongst the earliest identifiers of this.
22:31 Absolutely.
22:32 No, the real estate cycle's full underway.
22:36 Now there's a problem with the real estate cycle.
22:38 It seems to me that it's being very much led by the high end.
22:42 But that's not a problem.
22:43 But that could become a problem.
22:45 But actually, normally-- in the sense you want to see a broadening out, right?
22:50 But normally, when these property cycles start, they normally start in the biggest cities,
22:54 and they normally start with the high end.
22:59 But the interesting point is it's remained remarkably resilient in the face of rising
23:05 rates.
23:06 And that's because we had a seven-year downturn.
23:10 And so for seven years, basically, nominal income growth exceeded property prices.
23:16 So I continue-- although they've already gone up a lot, and they could well correct-- if
23:20 the oil goes up, the property stocks-- actually, the biggest and most successful developers
23:28 are benefiting from huge consolidation in the industry because of all the body blows
23:33 the industry took.
23:35 And which explains the 8% weightage that you have on the Indian real estate companies in
23:39 your Asia X Japan long only portfolio.
23:42 It's circa 8%, if I'm not wrong.
23:44 Yeah, but my Indian portfolio is like double that.
23:48 Yeah, sure.
23:50 OK, elections, you mentioned, Chris.
23:53 Assuming that the outcome is what the market expects or wants it to be, do you reckon that
23:59 some bit of global money or a large bit of global money might also be waiting for that
24:03 outcome to be behind before they commit large sums of capital, FDI or FII money?
24:10 Yeah, I think they're already beginning to commit money.
24:13 But on the portfolio side, there's a huge potential for global investors to increase
24:19 their exposure to Indian equities.
24:21 Because as I say, they've exited China.
24:23 There's a technical issue there that a lot of these global funds might not have FII.
24:29 Because if you want to invest in China and you're a global investor, there's all these
24:34 ADRs.
24:35 That's not the case in India.
24:38 So there's a technical-- but in my own global fund, I think I have a 15% exposure to India.
24:45 That's 14 percentage points more than most global funds.
24:49 The global funds have no exposure to Indian equities.
24:54 So on the FDI front, clearly the PLI scheme, the need for people to move production out
25:01 of China, there was a cost issue in China.
25:05 But companies like Apple is the best example, basically didn't want to move from China.
25:10 Because China is an extremely efficient place to operate.
25:14 They've got all the logistics in place.
25:16 They've also got the big domestic market.
25:19 But all these US countries, big commitments to China, even if they wanted to stay 100%
25:23 in China, they can't take that risk anymore.
25:26 For the same reason the portfolio investors can't.
25:29 Because there could be order to leave China by the US Congress.
25:34 This is a risk.
25:36 So this is a huge opportunity for India.
25:41 So basically, if people are looking for a production to move production to somewhere
25:46 else in Asia, the obvious competition to India would say three countries-- Vietnam, Malaysia,
25:52 Thailand.
25:53 But India's got one huge advantage over these other competition.
25:57 India's got this big domestic market.
26:00 So actually, I think as a practical matter, India only needs to be 70% as good on the
26:06 offering to get this business.
26:09 And it's just a question of tweaking the PLI schemes to make sure they have the design
26:16 right to attract the investment.
26:18 So this year, this is a huge opportunity for India.
26:22 Let's see how it goes.
26:23 I have one last question before I do a rapid fire.
26:25 And my last question is, so therefore, would it be safe to say that your hypothesis currently
26:31 is a base case hypothesis and there is a room for a positive surprise in your optimism that
26:37 you've built in?
26:38 Oh, no, absolutely.
26:39 Yeah.
26:40 OK, great.
26:41 Last five questions, a bit of a rapid fire for you, Chris.
26:45 30 seconds for an answer if we can.
26:48 I've chosen these topics randomly as I deemed fit.
26:51 So US versus China, the one which will have a bigger impact on the world by the end of
26:56 this decade and why?
26:59 On world financial markets.
27:01 Or growth or geopolitics, US or China?
27:05 US.
27:06 US.
27:07 OK.
27:08 AI has been the buzzword of 2023.
27:11 You reckon it's an enabler or do you reckon it's a disruptor of businesses?
27:15 A short term disruptor, but long term enabler.
27:19 OK.
27:20 Late cuts by the Fed and then maybe other central banks, early 2024 or late 2024?
27:27 Oh, good career.
27:30 Maybe early.
27:31 Maybe early.
27:32 Mid, mid, maybe mid.
27:33 Maybe mid.
27:34 OK.
27:35 A lot of people like Japan in the Asian context as well.
27:38 So if I were to omit China versus India as a conversation, as a long term bet, Japan
27:43 or India?
27:44 No, actually, they are complementary.
27:47 Right now I would own both.
27:49 Japan is interesting because big, big pressure for Japanese corporates to improve ROE.
27:58 Coming from Tokyo Stock Exchange.
28:00 Otherwise they risk being delisted.
28:02 So this actually is a real pressure point.
28:05 OK.
28:06 I know you don't make very short term calls, but I'm forced to ask you a tactical call
28:09 for the next three, four months, Indian markets or Chinese markets?
28:13 Tactical.
28:14 I'll be... that's...
28:18 I haven't got a strong view on that one.
28:20 OK, never mind.
28:21 50-50.
28:22 OK.
28:23 You have very large weightage on Indian property all this while.
28:25 You've upped the weightage on India internet as well.
28:28 Between the two, India property or India internet, the better bet.
28:31 For what period?
28:33 Let's say 12 months or 24 months.
28:38 12 months, maybe still property.
28:41 Longer the time horizon, the internet.
28:44 OK.
28:45 And from all the things that you look at, if I were to ask you to predict a dark horse
28:50 for 2024, it could be a market, it could be a theme, it could be a set of companies.
28:55 A dark horse for 2024.
28:58 Something that you think the market is not quite pricing in.
29:00 No, in a world where we suddenly get the Fed cutting rates, then you'll get a... and especially
29:09 that coincides with dollar weakness and growing focus on the fiscal issue, then you could
29:14 get a move in gold.
29:15 But you need the Fed cutting rates.
29:17 OK.
29:18 Chris Wood, this was such a delight talking to you.
29:21 Thank you for taking the time out and being with us on Worldview.
29:23 Thank you.
29:24 And viewers, thanks for tuning in.
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