BQ Conversations: Petroleum Minister Hardeep Singh Puri
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00:00 In the last few days, across multiple platforms, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has spoken a
00:04 lot about the work that his government has done in the last 9.5 years.
00:09 He has made a very strong pitch to be re-elected as the Prime Minister of the country for the
00:12 third term.
00:13 He has spoken about making the country among the most developed countries of the world
00:18 by 2047 and he has also spoken about a new world order.
00:22 To make sense of most of these statements, we have with us a senior minister from the
00:26 Modi cabinet, Mr. Hardeep Puri.
00:29 Mr. Puri is the Minister for Urban Development and also the Minister for Petroleum and Natural
00:34 Gas.
00:35 He has been a bureaucrat in his earlier avatar.
00:37 He knows governance and also the politics of governance.
00:40 Thank you very much, sir, for speaking to us.
00:43 I start with a very basic question.
00:46 This has been on everybody's mind since the PM spoke about it on Independence Day.
00:51 A developed country by 2047.
00:53 That sounds ambitious.
00:54 It sounds challenging.
00:55 Are we on the right track?
00:58 First of all, thank you very much for having me on your show.
01:04 Your question goes to the heart of the 9.5 years of the Modi government.
01:11 When the Prime Minister exudes confidence and not just confidence, but comes out with
01:20 a roadmap of what we will be like, let's say in 2030 and then in 2047, he's exuding that
01:28 confidence based on some solid statistical, empirically verifiable data.
01:38 So this 2047 Sankalp developed nation is not only a realistic target expectation, but I
01:50 have been on record many a times to say that 2047 is an indicator, but we would be a developed
01:59 nation even before that.
02:01 Now why do I say that?
02:03 First of all, insofar as what constitutes development.
02:08 Clearly the size of your economy, your GDP, the development of various core sectors, the
02:16 issue on whether the core developmental indices reflect that they have percolated down to
02:25 the those who are the most vulnerable members of society.
02:29 And where will you stand in terms of the rest of the world?
02:35 All right.
02:36 Now let me start at the basics.
02:39 The economy in India today is doing well.
02:43 When you talk about a six or a six and a half percent rate of growth, that in and of itself,
02:50 I think is not unimpressive.
02:53 It's pretty, pretty impressive.
02:55 But what are you comparing this to?
02:58 You're comparing this to other countries which have had a track record of fast growth.
03:07 The United States of America, a leading economy in the world, $26 trillion or thereabouts.
03:13 China, the second largest economy, anywhere around 17, $18 trillion GDP.
03:21 Europe.
03:23 Today we've traveled from being the 10th largest economy to being the fifth largest
03:28 economy.
03:29 And the Prime Minister says with that same confidence that during his third term, India
03:36 will be amongst the three largest economies in the world.
03:39 That third term, you're looking at a time frame of 24 to 29.
03:44 All right.
03:45 Why are we so confident?
03:48 We are not confident.
03:49 It's the figures which are speaking.
03:51 Today if you end 2023, I'm talking about the calendar year, with a GDP of 3.75 trillion
03:58 or 3.8 trillion, the two economies which are ahead of us in terms of GDP are the German
04:03 and the Japanese economy.
04:05 One is at 4.1, the other 4.3.
04:08 If you are growing at six, six and a half percent, and the other economies have either
04:12 flat growth.
04:15 I mean, I'm talking about, I don't want to take any names, one economy which traditionally
04:19 last many years, last five or 10 years, it has been have virtually 1% or...
04:27 Another economy, very large economy, has had quarter on quarter decline, which is your
04:35 definition for a big R. So it's not that you take, draw any satisfaction from the others
04:43 not doing well.
04:45 You merely take the existing reality and how we are going forward.
04:51 How can we be confident about going forward?
04:54 You look at all your consumption indices.
04:56 Energy.
04:58 Your energy consumption today, madam, is three times the global average.
05:03 You look at the growth.
05:06 Let me just say, completely off the cup.
05:10 Your automobile sector.
05:11 Forget that.
05:12 Civil aviation.
05:15 You know, even in parts of the country which had access issues, today the number of flights
05:22 is way beyond.
05:23 I mean, let's say JNK.
05:25 Way beyond what they were in the, even in the pre-COVID times.
05:28 Let me move completely away from this.
05:31 That green transition that you are doing.
05:34 Why is anyone therefore surprised that the prime minister, based on those nine and a
05:40 half years, I mean, if at starting point in 2014 he had turned around and said, we will
05:45 be a $5 trillion economy by 2025, you could have turned back and said, hey, wait a minute.
05:52 Isn't there a bit of bravado there?
05:53 But we started talking about $5 trillion economy by 2025 and a $10 trillion economy by 2030
06:00 only recently.
06:01 When we saw that we had moved in the range of $3 trillion plus.
06:06 So I think when the Honorable Prime Minister talks about the economy, he does so with a
06:11 full understanding of what is happening on the ground.
06:16 And he is also confident that this can be sustained in the coming year till the next
06:23 election takes place and thereafter.
06:26 Therefore, these are not predictions.
06:29 These are projections based on the current reality and the trends which are evident.
06:35 Mr. Puri, when we are talking about your ministries, one of the projects that the PM has often
06:39 praised is the way the parliament was built in record time.
06:42 Can you share some learnings that you had from executing this project and how was your
06:48 experience?
06:49 I think the first question that must have struck the Honorable Prime Minister is why
06:52 has it taken us so long to think of a new parliament and a new set of government buildings?
07:03 Buildings that were constructed in the 1920s were never designed for a newly independent
07:11 India or to be the legislature of a newly independent India.
07:15 It's not that people didn't talk about it.
07:17 Functionaries including leaders in the Congress party have spoken about it.
07:22 In fact, when Shri Mati Meera Kumar was the speaker, her secretary wrote to the secretary
07:29 in my ministry saying it's about time we got a new parliament built.
07:33 Look, my association with this project goes back to the time I was appointed or joined
07:41 the Council of Ministers, 3rd September 2017.
07:44 A few days after I joined, I received a huge thing to be opened by the addressee which
07:51 is me.
07:53 There were large pictures of the seat of governance, many places, Washington DC, Australia,
08:04 Brasilia, all of them.
08:07 Obviously somebody had been studying this.
08:10 I have no doubt who was looking at that, who this somebody was and had been studying and
08:15 looking at what is required.
08:17 Now, it's very interesting that in 2017 when I joined, I was not aware of the fact that
08:23 actually in 2026, the delimitation issue will crop up as against the current number, the
08:32 number of MPs in the Lok Sabha will go up by quite a bit.
08:38 So even for the current number, you don't have the sitting space and you extracted the
08:44 sitting space behind the pillars.
08:45 You should not be sitting.
08:46 We did that.
08:47 We have taken extra air conditioning ducts, you've made ducts for and it has moved in
08:56 the seismic zone.
08:57 So you urgently need to refurbish that, re-strengthen, etc.
09:02 So here is a Prime Minister who saw it well in time and the rest is history.
09:09 But I think it will rank, and I say this without any hesitation, it will rank amongst one of
09:17 the most splendid and a place people will want to come and see because it combines our
09:28 historical legacy, culture, etc. with modernity.
09:33 So when you talk about, I mean this is about your other ministry, when you talk about inflation
09:37 around fuel prices, can you explain to us what all did you do to navigate the question
09:43 of diplomacy around oil and how was the PM sort of involved in this and in the coming
09:49 days would you see oil companies sort of like passing on their gains to common people?
09:53 Well, first and foremost, let me just state upfront for you and your viewers that our
10:03 energy consumption is shooting up.
10:04 Today, 5 million barrels a day of crude oil we are consuming.
10:09 It's likely to go up to 6, 6.5 in the coming time.
10:13 We have three challenges, or rather we had three challenges, we still have three challenges.
10:17 One is availability.
10:18 For a country which is dependent on imports, up to 80% for its crude oil and about 50%
10:25 or so for natural gas, clearly what happens in the rest of the world is of importance
10:31 to us.
10:33 Second one is affordability and the third one is sustainability.
10:36 This is what I call the trilemma.
10:38 In so far as availability is concerned, I think yes, we were able to diversify our sources
10:45 of supply which were at 27 earlier to 39 now.
10:51 We have been absolutely flexible without hesitation.
10:56 If we could buy crude cheaper somewhere or more readily somewhere, we use the market
11:03 card because we also realize that we have that advantage.
11:06 Let me give you an example.
11:11 When the military action took place, Russia-Ukraine in February 2020, we bought hardly any oil
11:18 from the Russians.
11:19 I think if memory serves me right, 0.2% or so only.
11:25 That suddenly changed and we started buying more and more and more oil.
11:30 Now of late last two, three months, that has become less.
11:34 We are buying more oil from Iraq, more from the UAE.
11:39 Oil purchases are not undertaken by the government.
11:43 It's not that the ministry gets in and buys the oil.
11:45 There are private sector players and there are what we call the OMCs or oil marketing
11:50 company.
11:51 All of them have one thing in common that they want to access the maximum amount at
11:58 the cheapest price.
11:59 So they will follow, they will issue tenders and whoever applies, they will get it.
12:05 The government has an important role to play because if the international prices which
12:09 went up from $19.56 for a barrel when the lockdown was complete, no consumption, then
12:16 it shot up to $120.
12:19 Now if there's such a variation, there will be winners and there will be losers.
12:25 The winners, those who produce the oil, obviously they'll be very happy the price has gone up.
12:31 Some of those people who are in the refining business and reselling the business will be
12:33 reasonably happy.
12:35 But there are others, consumers also.
12:37 A lot of people take a beating.
12:39 So I can give you the same thing for gas, if international prices go up.
12:44 But I want to first give you some comparative figures.
12:49 I always believe that comparisons have to be between in amongst roughly similarly placed
12:56 countries etc.
12:59 But what did the government do?
13:00 On two occasions, November 2021 and May 2022, the central government, largely the Prime
13:08 Minister with others joining in, I'll tell you why I mean the other.
13:12 We reduced the excise on petrol and diesel on two occasions.
13:18 The BJP ruled states also brought down the VAT that they charge.
13:22 Now if you see the prices between different listings, in Guwahati, now I'm comparing July
13:29 23 to July 23 because we are now in August, so July month, we are 16 days or so into August.
13:39 Guwahati petrol was retailing at 98 rupees, three pice.
13:44 In Kolkata, it was retailing at 106 rupees and three pice difference of eight rupees.
13:53 Between Gandhinagar and Jaipur, the difference was 96.63 in Gandhinagar, 108.48 in Jaipur,
14:02 difference of 11 rupees 85 paisa.
14:04 Vasudha ji, I tell you another thing, you don't buy one litre of petrol.
14:08 Depending on the vehicle that you use, your tank may be 30 litres or it may be 50 litres
14:14 or even more.
14:16 Just imagine if it's a 50 litres tank and the difference in price per litre is 11 rupees
14:21 85 paisa, 50 multiplied by 11.85, that's a sizeable difference.
14:27 I will come now to diesel.
14:30 I'll give you one example, in July 23 comparison period, Imphal, 87 rupees 15 pais, diesel
14:41 per litre, Hyderabad, 97 rupees 82 pais, difference of 10 rupees 67 paisa.
14:49 Again I put that same multiplier.
14:50 In other words, if you go into one of these states and you have a capacity of 50, out
15:00 of a sizeable amount of money, it may not affect the very well-to-do.
15:06 Gandhinagar and Amravati, 7 rupees 23 pais difference, 92.38 in Gandhinagar and 99.61
15:14 in Amravati.
15:17 Now I'm just going to go away from that and come to country comparison.
15:22 What is the increase that took place between June 21 and June 23?
15:27 I'm taking a two-year period.
15:30 India the increase was 2.36%.
15:34 Let me give you some countries in India's immediate neighbourhood.
15:38 Pakistan 50.83% increase.
15:42 In Sri Lanka 79.61% increase, Nepal 42.39% increase, USA 30.15% increase, Canada 24.17%
15:53 increase.
15:54 Let me go to diesel now, very quickly.
15:59 In increase ours is 4.97%, Pakistan 40.81%, Bangladesh 50.11%, Sri Lanka 130.65%, Nepal
16:11 46.35%, just compare it with USA 29.31%.
16:16 You can turn around and say, well, countries are placed in different circumstances.
16:24 One country they can afford, it doesn't matter.
16:27 I'm not going into that.
16:30 I'm taking the same country for the same period.
16:33 In other words, if there was an affordability in June 21, it doesn't change very much in
16:37 June 23.
16:38 Look at the percentage changes.
16:40 So I make the submission to you, madam, that we were able to ensure availability.
16:46 That no time in the last few years have we allowed any form of shortage, including during
16:52 the torrential rains in the Northeast.
16:55 Our oil marketing company, their people carried cylinders on their shoulders and delivered
17:01 them in the heavy rain.
17:05 Affordability I gave you the statistics, availability, affordability, and sustainability is the best
17:10 story.
17:11 Our biofuel percentage is going up.
17:15 The work we are doing on CNG is showing results.
17:20 CBG, we are not only now doing ethanol production from the traditional feed, which is sugar,
17:28 maize.
17:29 We are also going into 2G.
17:32 2G means making it from agricultural waste.
17:36 Instead of burning the parali, we have a plant in Panipat where we make ethanol from that.
17:41 But Mr. Puri, the price of LPG cylinders, is it a concern?
17:44 Because it's also become a political subject, because in this whole guarantee ecosystem
17:48 of the Congress, the party is promising LPG cylinders at reduced rates.
17:53 It did the same in Karnataka, Himachal Pradesh.
17:56 So is there any...
17:58 Let me place a perspective to you.
18:02 When we talk about affordability, which means we are subsidizing, a subsidy on gas cylinders,
18:09 even at any given point of time, including today, is not less than 9,000, 10,000 crores
18:14 per year, maybe a little less or maybe a little more.
18:18 What is involved in this?
18:19 Our companies took, during this period, they incurred a loss of 28,000 crores.
18:25 So we reimbursed 22,000 crores to them.
18:31 That is our style of doing things.
18:33 We take the rap, we take the consequences, and then we do it.
18:37 There's another style of doing this, which is the current ravery brand of politics.
18:42 You promise...
18:43 Now, you might read a stage, I won't name the state, where nobody, anybody will pay
18:48 anything for electricity.
18:49 But where is the money going to come from?
18:51 The Congress, during the years that they were in power, 2004 and '14, very interestingly,
19:00 they were faced with a problem like this.
19:02 So what they decided to do, they decided to float oil bonds.
19:06 So I think the oil bonds were 1,41,000 crores.
19:09 And you know how much we're paying back now?
19:11 3,50,000 crores.
19:13 So the submission I make to you is, is it a political issue?
19:17 Well, I'll tell you, the guy who came in wearing a hair of tomato, so it's a graphic thing.
19:25 So I joked with him, I said, "Oh, cylinder bhi gale mein daal ke le aate hain."
19:28 He knew I was pulling his leg.
19:30 But seriously, government will make all efforts, including bringing the price of the gas cylinder
19:37 down.
19:38 We are already providing one subsidy of 200 rupees per cylinder.
19:43 But more than that, do you know, during the pandemic, the government supplied three cylinders
19:48 free.
19:49 And cylinder consumption, including amongst...
19:53 And these are only for economically weaker section and those who live below the poverty
19:57 line.
19:58 So the consumption has gone up from three cylinders to 3.71 cylinders.
20:03 And four cylinders is what an average consumption should be.
20:06 I take your point.
20:08 Gas cylinder prices, it will depend on the global situation.
20:15 Obviously the price is going up.
20:16 But I'm very confident that we've navigated this well.
20:19 And even the time to come also, that the government has seized of it and they will receive.
20:24 But we will do it in a responsible manner.
20:26 Some of the others who are promising relief actually are not being able to pay up.
20:29 Absolutely, sir.
20:30 My second last question to you.
20:31 We are talking about the opposition.
20:33 Tell us what do you feel about this INDIA alliance?
20:37 Aam Aadmi Party and Congress have already started showing some disagreements, especially
20:41 with regard to Delhi and Punjab.
20:44 Tell us, do you really think that these opposition parties have the potential in them to sort
20:49 of put forward a formidable opposition to the BJP?
20:52 No, no.
20:53 I would forget about a formidable opposition.
20:55 I have a very simple take on this.
20:59 Most of them, if you analyze their recent history, the Aam Aadmi Party is a relative
21:06 new arrival.
21:07 It's a political startup.
21:09 Where were they born?
21:10 They were born out of agitation against entrenched corruption.
21:16 So today they want to get into bed with somebody whom they defined as entrenched corruption.
21:24 That is something they will have to respond to.
21:25 My own take is they will collapse under the weight of their own contradictions and the
21:30 corruption which goes with it.
21:33 Now the TMC is unlikely to be happy to be in alliance with the Congress or the CPIM
21:39 in West Bengal.
21:41 And the Congress, as you say, madam, is not likely to be happy or the Aam Aadmi Party
21:45 happy with each other in Punjab and in Delhi.
21:50 And I can go on giving these examples.
21:52 Mr. Puri, my last question to you.
21:55 What about your own future, sir?
21:56 Would you be also contesting elections?
21:58 No, listen, I have a term in the Rajya Sabha till November of 2026.
22:03 I have been greatly privileged to have been associated with the party as it is.
22:09 I'm a karyakarta of the party and that's the way I want to stay.
22:12 But we see you so active in Delhi.
22:14 No, I'm active because I have good friends like you who engage me in conversation.
22:21 But no, I think Lok Sabha seats should be contested by younger people so that you nurture
22:26 constituency.
22:28 I think I'm ready to continue working, but I don't think the pace can be accelerated
22:34 beyond this.
22:35 That's well said, sir.
22:36 Thank you so much for your insights and time.
22:37 Thank you.
22:37 Thank you.
22:37 Thank you.
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