Outlook Bibliofile: In Conversation With Rajmohan Gandhi

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'Delhi has never been able to control the South' Historian Rajmohan Gandhi discusses his book Modern South India with Outlook Bibliofile  To watch more Bibliofile videos click here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZgVviR9zkLouLen6kPzAzvbZ92w4po8q  #OutlookBibliofile #OutlookMagazine #OutlookGroup

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00:00 Many people in Delhi have tried over the centuries to reach Cape Comer and Kanyakumari and rule

00:07 all those areas directly and most of the time they have failed.

00:12 Hello and welcome to Bibliophile, Outlook's new channel on books, authors, publishers,

00:25 anything from the literary world. And today we are discussing a new book by Rajmohan Gandhi,

00:31 Modern South India and what better place to discuss this than the Delhi Tamil Education

00:36 Association, one of the most premium institutions, South Indian institutions in the capital.

00:41 Thank you very much for coming, agreeing to come to Bibliophile. It's an honour to have

00:45 you on the show. And you know, as I was just saying, it's, you know, it's a, though it's

00:52 a sort of a historian's account of South India, it is also such a fascinating read. I mean,

00:58 the descriptions, the nuances that you bring in, it's so riveting. So what kind of, did

01:05 you do a lot of research, you going to the places and seeing how things were?

01:10 Well, thank you for your kind words. You know, if it is as you say, then I'm lucky because

01:14 it's very difficult to know when one is writing, how it's going to turn out. Yes, I went to

01:19 all, to many of these places and I of course did a lot of research in libraries and archives,

01:26 but also made visits to as many places as I could in South India. And I also tapped

01:33 the knowledge of many historians that they had accumulated over the decades to save some

01:39 time for myself. My plan was not to discover some kind of new archaeological material,

01:47 some new discovery about the past. No, my aim was to try to recapture the past to the

01:52 extent possible. So I went to some scholars who had done their study. So many very fine

01:57 historians were kind enough to share their insights with me.

02:01 As one goes through the book, it's one striking feature is in fact from the last 400 years

02:09 at least, you know, Delhi has never been able to have its hold on South India, right from

02:14 Akbar's time in the mid 1600s centuries to the present. Is distance an issue or is it

02:21 a cultural distance or is it a physical distance?

02:25 This is a very important point you make that many people in Delhi have tried over the centuries

02:32 to reach Cape Comer and Kanyakumari and rule all those areas directly and most of the time

02:41 they have failed. It has to do with distance, it has to do with culture, it has to do with

02:47 the fact that invading forces when they've gone south, they are stretched, their resources

02:55 are stretched. By the time they reach the south, they're too weak to impose their authority.

03:00 But that I'm talking about the earlier period. But at the present time, in more recent time,

03:05 there's a very great cultural divide. The south is a distinct entity and so it has resisted

03:13 that kind of governance.

03:17 And the other thing you pointed out in the book is how the invasions have, you know,

03:22 the attempts have been actually from north to the south onward, never from south up north.

03:27 Right.

03:28 Why is that?

03:31 You know, because Delhi was for centuries the capital, so all the forces and assets

03:39 were amassed in the Delhi area. Nonetheless, it's a great question that the south should

03:46 ask itself. Why have we not tried in the south to take leadership of India as a whole, not

03:54 necessarily to conquer and dominate, but to lead India? So this is one of the recurring

04:03 themes in my study is the reluctance of many in the south to dare to assume leadership

04:11 for the country as a whole.

04:13 And that seems to continue even in our democratic times.

04:16 Yes.

04:17 Even in the post-independence, there doesn't seem to be, I mean, a single person with that

04:21 ambition of at least getting the southern states together.

04:24 Yes. So, I say two people who came closest to assuming all India leadership. Of course,

04:30 there was Narsimha Rao was Prime Minister, Devagardha was Prime Minister, but those were,

04:36 you might say, results of accidents, political circumstances.

04:40 Yes.

04:41 It isn't as if Narsimha Rao from early years tried to become the leader of India.

04:45 Yes.

04:46 He was glad he became Prime Minister and Devagardha was also very fortunate to become

04:51 Prime Minister.

04:52 But the two people who came closest were Rajaji and Kamaraj.

04:56 Yes.

04:57 Rajaji was Governor General. He was in the center, very close to Nehru and Patel in the

05:02 government. Kamaraj was the President of the Congress. When Nehru died, he made possible

05:10 the emergence of Indira Gandhi as Prime Minister and again Shastri.

05:14 But neither Rajaji nor Kamaraj really tried to take advantage of the opportunities they

05:19 had to assert some kind of national leadership themselves. They were glad to play the role

05:25 they played and then they returned, you might say, to the shadows.

05:28 Yes.

05:29 So, they didn't want to stay and govern India quite.

05:32 The other point, sir, this is of course about how southern leaders have not shown this ambition

05:39 to lead the country. The other thought that many people have entertained, especially during

05:45 Periyar's time in the 1930s, of this Dravidian nation, of these southern states having their

05:53 own, what would it be, in a counterfactual manner, what would it be like if there was

06:00 a country of southern states?

06:03 Yes, for some time, mind you, Periyar also didn't pursue that dream till the end of his life.

06:10 He passionately worked for it. He had this notion of the Dravidian lands. It is true

06:18 that all the four major southern languages ultimately have their root in Dravidian linguistics.

06:25 But, and of course, one point that I have made, which is an obvious one, a physical

06:35 one, that whereas the north is dominated by the Himalayas, the south is dominated by the

06:40 oceans, which brings international connections to the south. Kerala has had connections with

06:46 the Middle East and Tamil Nadu also, Andhra. But although there has been this distinct

06:55 southern tradition and culture, it is also a fact that these southern regions, different

07:02 ones, have had difficulty really making alliances with one another. And after the linguistic

07:09 distribution in 1956, when the maps were changed, across the new boundary were seen not southern

07:17 neighbours, but possible enemies or rivals, at times enemies. So this has been an unfortunate

07:24 reality. And even during Periyar's time, it was not easy for him, he was not successful

07:31 in persuading the Telugu speakers and the Kannada speakers and the Malayalam speakers

07:35 that they would have equal rights in a southern state. There was a suggestion that possibly

07:40 the Tamil area might dominate the others. So that was also a factor. But granting all

07:49 these difficulties and the failures, you might say, I would say that the basic unity of the

07:57 south is still to be explored and it can be made use of. Not, of course, for a separate

08:03 country, but for a very important block of states who could then play a large part in

08:08 India as a whole. As a united entity. Yes. Our electoral process itself, you know, the

08:14 states which have the best human indices, you know, even the GDP, state GDP, how come

08:22 that it is the northern states, you know, which in the end decide sort of who takes

08:28 the chair in Delhi. Would you say it's a flaw in our electoral process? I don't know whether

08:35 we should call it a flaw in the process, but it is a result of demographics. I mean, A,

08:41 it's a result of the fact that the Hindi speakers are a very substantial percentage of the Indian

08:46 population. And secondly, the southern states have not been able to form a united block.

08:54 If they were to form a united block, they would have a much greater weight in the centre.

09:00 Of course, they would have to have partnerships with the western India, eastern India, but

09:06 I think it's partly demographics, it's partly, you might say, tradition. You know, people

09:12 get accustomed to certain things. Yes. And so, but ultimately the Hindi speaking states

09:22 have a great many MPs in Parliament. The southern states don't have as many.

09:28 Yeah, you know, like say one state like Uttar Pradesh should decide in their final. Is that, I mean…

09:35 So, you know, when you agree on one person, one vote, that is where now the idea was that

09:42 the, you know, Rajya Sabha would be a council of the states. But even the Rajya Sabha is

09:50 ultimately decided on the basis of population. And in fact, if southern states are able to

09:55 control their population, they may lose their ratio in Lok Sabha in the future.

10:02 So, merely to let population be a determining factor, I think we should give some fresh thought to that.

10:09 And increase the federal character of the Rajya Sabha. Yes. And fight for the federal spirit to be maintained.

10:19 I think that is the absolute case. The south has shown so much progress also, even post-independence.

10:25 In education, in health, and population and family planning, and in economics and GDP.

10:34 So, the south has credentials for leadership. But I will, maybe you will allow me to make a point.

10:45 This book is not written to establish an argument or to say that the south must have…

10:52 Sure. That is a fact. And that comes across. But my main bid in my research and in my writing

11:00 was to see if I could discover what the 17th century was like, what the 18th century was like,

11:07 in South India, what the 19th century was like, in all parts of South India, what the 20th century was like.

11:12 So, you know, I was moving forward in time from the 17th century, but I was moving sideways in space.

11:19 I was moving to Kerala, to Karnataka, to Telugu, to the Tamil area. So, I wanted to cover all those areas

11:26 and try to capture as faithfully as I could, what the spirit of the period was, what the texture of that period was.

11:34 Of course, so many precious things are not included in this. How can one book covering 400 years,

11:44 in these numerous rich cultures, cover everything? Not possible.

11:49 Sir, I am tempted to ask just one last question. You know, since your grandparents are Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi and C. Rajagopalachari,

11:58 you are more Gujarati or more South Indian? Well, I suppose, I have spent, relatively speaking,

12:06 far more time in the South than in Gujarat. For one thing, Rajaji lived to a ripe age and I was 37 when he died.

12:16 I was 12 and a half when Gandhiji was assassinated. So, I was able to have prolonged conversations with C.R. Rajaji,

12:25 which I could not have had with you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Mr. Rajagopalachari.

12:30 Mohan Gandhi, it was a delight to speak to you. Thank you.

12:33 The book is a really, really fascinating account of the South India in the last 400 years.

12:36 Thank you for giving me the chance to talk about it. Thank you, sir.

12:39 [Music]

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