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Stefan Molyneux
  • 3 days ago
Monday Morning Twitter/X Space 4 August 2025

In this episode, I examine the complex interplay between personal happiness and political freedom, drawing on philosophical concepts like Aristotle's eudaimonia. We discuss the sacrifices often required to advocate for political liberties, using historical examples such as Romania to highlight the importance of collective action in reform. The conversation also explores the impact of male authority figures on societal narratives and the differing communication styles of men and women. Ultimately, I urge listeners to align personal integrity with active citizenship, promoting a society that values both individual happiness and collective freedom.

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Transcript
00:00:00Hey, hey, hey, good morning, everybody, hope you're doing well, see if I'm calling you
00:00:06from Free Domain, freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show, really would appreciate
00:00:12as you get the distilled wisdom of over 40 years and tens of thousands of hours of the
00:00:18study of philosophy delivered straight like a laser dopamine to your orgasmic joy centers
00:00:24of your brain. Hope you're doing well. Let us tickle our neurons with a discussion of philosophy this
00:00:32morning, and I certainly have my speeches all prepared, but I'm happy. If you want to holler
00:00:42in my ear, we'll do a table tennis bounce back and forth and see if we can advance the common cause
00:00:48of humanity closer to reason and evidence. Just raise your hand, raise your finger, raise your
00:00:55shirt, and raise our expectations, and I'm happy to chat. Because, oh my, well, I do have a rant
00:01:04within me, actually more than one, but right now there is one that is coruscating and coalescing
00:01:10within my midriff. But I don't want to brain block anybody with stuff to talk about. So I'll give
00:01:18it a go in once. I'll give it a going twice. I'll give it away, give it away, give it away now.
00:01:26All right, looks like we're here to listen. I assume people, oh, if you're at work, I expect a cut.
00:01:32So, wait, we have someone. TM. TM, Transcendental Meditation, Too Muchness. Tia Maria, what is on
00:01:44your mind? Oh, my, my. I did not think it was going to be this quick. It is lovely speaking with me.
00:01:51Hey, that's what she said. Anyway, go on.
00:01:53You've succeeded in wiping everything from my mind. The only worst thing is, is it in?
00:02:05Philosophy. Let's stick to philosophy above the waist.
00:02:09All right, hard thinking. There we go. Do it.
00:02:11Okay. So, I look at the current state of things, and I find myself deeply concerned about the
00:02:23transmission of good values, of how we are going to keep ourselves a free people. And it seems we've
00:02:33made quite a hash of things. It's just an awful mess that we have in terms of keeping the republic,
00:02:45keeping ourselves free, understanding what we need to do in terms of meat and potatoes to keep
00:02:52ourselves free. And what would you suggest would be practical efforts to further that, that would be
00:03:01on a human scale, that would be, you know, a midwit of X could do it on the subject.
00:03:09So, is your question, how do we promote freedom in the world?
00:03:14Uniminiya is what I'm looking for, but I think...
00:03:18I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that sound of like numiriya. What does that mean?
00:03:22Uniminiya. It's an Aristotelian concept of a good life.
00:03:25Oh, uniminiya. Okay, uniminiya. Got it, got it. Okay.
00:03:28Sorry.
00:03:28Are you trying to...
00:03:29I need it.
00:03:30Hang on, hang on, hang on. Hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:03:33Are you asking me how to promote happiness or how to promote virtue?
00:03:36Now, I know that Aristotle says that, you know, virtue leads to happiness and so on,
00:03:40but you talked about, I think, some of the tyrannies and loss of freedoms that we experience.
00:03:47And are you saying, how do we promote political freedom? How do we promote,
00:03:50or how do we promote personal happiness?
00:03:53Well, I'm a little concerned about the present generation of the right.
00:03:58Okay, bro, bro, bro, bro. Okay, I keep asking you these questions and you keep going on speeches.
00:04:05Do you know what I'm asking you?
00:04:08I understand what you're saying.
00:04:11Okay, then.
00:04:13Here's the thing.
00:04:13Aristotle is correct.
00:04:15No, here's the thing, though.
00:04:16So, if you're going to have a conversation with me, then you have to acknowledge that I asked you something, right?
00:04:22So, if I say, is this the way to the grocery store?
00:04:25And you say, well, I'm very concerned about the online rights.
00:04:29It's a little rude, right?
00:04:30Because, you know, you can say, listen, I've heard your question, I'm going to answer it in a roundabout fashion, blah, blah, blah.
00:04:37But if I ask you a question, and I've asked it twice now, and then you just start speechifying,
00:04:43I mean, my experience is that you're here to speechify, not to answer my questions.
00:04:47Now, if you want to speechify, that's fine, then you should get your own show and speechify.
00:04:51But if you're having a conversation with me, one of the prices is you've got to listen to what I say and respond to it.
00:04:57Okay.
00:04:59And so, are you asking me how to promote personal happiness or political freedom?
00:05:06Or something else?
00:05:08I believe that personal happiness is tied up with political freedom.
00:05:15I don't accept that the two are necessarily separate.
00:05:20Okay, so I get what you're saying in a general sense.
00:05:28Do you think that people ever suffer for the promotion of political freedoms?
00:05:33Sure.
00:05:34Okay, so then they're not the same thing.
00:05:36I suffered on the way to marrying my wife.
00:05:37I'm sorry?
00:05:38I suffered on the way to marrying my wife.
00:05:40She liked to walk a lot.
00:05:42Blisters.
00:05:42Okay, let's not diminish the struggle for political freedom by making silly jokes about blisters with your wife, right?
00:05:51Because that's a whole different situation.
00:05:53So, I mean, if these are serious issues to you, then I'm not sure that making jokes about blisters is the way to go.
00:06:00Because if you don't take it particularly seriously, which is fine, then it's probably not a great topic of conversation.
00:06:05Because it does seem to be a very important topic of conversation.
00:06:08I think that a happy life is not a life that is totally devoid of suffering.
00:06:20So, yes, suffering can happen for freedom, obviously.
00:06:25Happens all the time.
00:06:27But, okay, so then when you say that it's a false dichotomy to say it's one or the other,
00:06:32look, the reason why political freedom is not achieved is whenever you gain any traction or success in promoting political freedom,
00:06:40people fuck up your life.
00:06:42Because they don't want to give up political power, right?
00:06:45I mean, it wasn't like America won its independence from England with sternly worded pamphlets, right?
00:06:50I mean, the people who signed the Declaration of Independence almost to a man were hounded and had to live in caves in the woods
00:06:57and had their families and businesses destroyed.
00:06:59I mean, the pursuit of political freedom comes at enormous personal sacrifice.
00:07:07It can.
00:07:08When things deviate largely enough, then yes.
00:07:12Okay, so what you're saying is there are times when promoting political freedom and achieving it, not just promoting it, right?
00:07:19Sure.
00:07:20So, I mean, I could promote political freedom in Aragorn's kingdom in Lord of the Rings, but nobody would care because it's not a real thing, right?
00:07:26So, are you saying that if you promote political freedom and you have some success, in other words,
00:07:32you are diminishing the power of power-hungry politicians and all of the other rulers,
00:07:39are you saying that if you are successful in promoting political freedom that the political rulers, there's no blowback?
00:07:47I think that the goals and happiness isn't necessarily personally there.
00:07:55I mean, I forget which one of the founding fathers was saying,
00:07:58I study war so my sons can study politics so their sons can study art.
00:08:02Okay, do you remember my question?
00:08:04Yes.
00:08:05Is there going to be blowback?
00:08:06Sure.
00:08:07There's going to be blowback.
00:08:08Okay, is it going to be quite consistent that if you harm the interests of evil people, they would try to harm you back?
00:08:17Yes.
00:08:18Okay, so then it is consistent that if you are successful in the promotion of political power, you're going to suffer personally.
00:08:29Political freedom.
00:08:30If you harm the interests of politicians.
00:08:32Sorry, I interrupted you, but I wasn't sure if I suddenly was thinking back and did I get that phrasing right.
00:08:38So, yeah, if you are successful in promoting political liberty, then you harm the interests of power-hungry rulers,
00:08:44and then you're going to get blowback, right?
00:08:46I mean, it's not like North Korea is not North Korea because people like it.
00:08:50It's because they get tortured and killed if they oppose the dictator, right?
00:08:55So, the promotion of political freedom, if you're successful, will almost always, I mean, as certainly as things can be in human life,
00:09:08I mean, my family has a long history of promoting political freedoms all the way back to my ancestor William Molyneux,
00:09:14and we have consistently received punishments as a result.
00:09:19So, that's why I'm asking you, if you're promoting personal happiness, or you're promoting political liberty,
00:09:26because one almost always comes at the expense of the other.
00:09:29The happier you are, the less you're disturbing evil people,
00:09:33and the more you are disturbing the interests of evildoers, the harder they will make your life.
00:09:39So, that's why I'm sort of asking.
00:09:41Well, I'm demurring for a specific issue that there is a way to not suffer that blowback if you can create a way to have a win-win.
00:10:02Like, okay, you're really miserable, North Korea, because, yes, you have great political power, but your pie is really small.
00:10:09So, let's enlarge the pie, not kill you, but create some sort of win-win situation.
00:10:15So, you're still in power, but we're going to make the pie larger, so you're actually going to do better by allowing more freedom.
00:10:23That is a structure that's possible.
00:10:25Some people have tried it.
00:10:29Personally, I've experimented in that sort of bargaining, and it can work.
00:10:36So, I don't, I accept that what you're saying is true insofar as it can be true, maybe even dominantly be true.
00:10:43I don't accept that it must be true.
00:10:46Well, as I said, there are no musts in human affairs, because there is free will, and there's always a certain element that can't be predicted.
00:10:54So, are you saying that the ruler of a dictatorship, we should appeal to their self-interest and say that they'll make more money if they allow a free market or something like that?
00:11:06Um, it's certainly better than shooting.
00:11:10I'm sorry.
00:11:11Yes.
00:11:12So, you're saying that that is the case.
00:11:15Okay.
00:11:16Now, what if the ruler of the dictatorship, what if the ruler is a sadist, and he gets his great pleasure out of torturing and killing people?
00:11:28Then he's less interested in money than he is in the power to do his evil deeds and not suffer any negative consequences, in which case, this appeal to self-interest would not work.
00:11:43Um, yes.
00:11:46So, I mean, sadists aren't healthy people.
00:11:50So, yes, if an unhealthy person was in a position of power, they would...
00:11:55Are you saying that there are lots of healthy people in positions of power?
00:11:59I'm saying that I know of two that actually made a run for it.
00:12:05Obscure ones, but yes.
00:12:08Okay.
00:12:09I mean, certainly when we're talking about dictatorships, we're not talking about healthy people by definition, right?
00:12:14A Lenin, a Stalin, a Hitler, Mussolini, like on the left, on the right, whatever you want to call them.
00:12:19The people who took significant and savage power over the lives of millions and sometimes destroyed entire countries and economies.
00:12:30And, like, the guy who was in charge of the biggest concentration camp in Soviet Russia killed millions and millions of Russian natives.
00:12:39And saying, well, you'll be able to buy a nicer car if you stop doing that isn't going to be enough because I assumed that he was, you know, a sadist and enjoyed torturing and killing people and starving them and so on.
00:12:55There are kind of examples.
00:12:56So, that doesn't work.
00:12:56And, like, and Cincinnati would be an example, who did see, did have power, was elected dictator, and then went back to his farm, famously.
00:13:07George Washington could have been a dictator.
00:13:09And he was trying to get out of that power as quickly as he can.
00:13:14What are you talking about?
00:13:15Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:13:18Hang on, you're just throwing historical examples left, right, and center.
00:13:21Okay, so, I mean, you know about the Whiskey Rebellion, right, that George Washington sent 10,000 troops to go and collect taxes from farmers who didn't want to pay a whiskey tax.
00:13:31Yes.
00:13:32I mean, isn't that a bit dictatorial?
00:13:35No.
00:13:36No, okay.
00:13:38It's, enforcing the law is not dictatorial.
00:13:42And saying this is the law, I declare it, that's dictatorial.
00:13:47Okay.
00:13:47Whether it's violence or not, to enforce it.
00:13:49Well, I don't want to have a conversation about statism as a whole, so we'll just stay in the general paradigm of that.
00:13:55Okay, I accept that.
00:13:57Okay, so, you said that you had some examples of being able to talk people out of doing evil.
00:14:02And I would love to hear those.
00:14:04Okay.
00:14:05Come Romania, 1989, there was a coup.
00:14:10The younger generation of communists, out throughout the older generation of communists, but they kept in.
00:14:18It was still a communist land.
00:14:19No, no, no, sorry.
00:14:20You said that you had your purse.
00:14:22I mean, were you in Romania at this time?
00:14:23Is that what you're talking about?
00:14:24Because I wanted to hear your examples.
00:14:27Yeah.
00:14:28The first.
00:14:29Ceausescu and Romania, is that your example?
00:14:32The first non-communist government of Romania.
00:14:37I participated in that debate and was reliably informed that my positions were being taken up from an internet debate and saying, you know, he's got a point there.
00:14:49We can really make bank.
00:14:51And these old fossils will never let us in.
00:14:55And I'm doing it out of order, so it makes less sense.
00:15:01So 1996 comes, there will be an election, multi-party election.
00:15:06It's shaping up to be a fraudulent election.
00:15:08And over the summer prior to the election, I was making the case, along with a small band of other Romanian ethnic Americans, that the communists should split.
00:15:20Because the young guys are never going to get power, while the old guys are going to hold on to it for as long as they can, and giving specific advice on how to do it.
00:15:30And it turns out, that's exactly what happened.
00:15:34And that's how the first non-communist government actually showed up in Romania.
00:15:38Now, it could have been a coincidence.
00:15:40It could have been my influence.
00:15:41It could have been the influence of others that coincidentally were advocating it.
00:15:47But that's history.
00:15:48Sorry, that's what happened.
00:15:51So that was my personal brush with it.
00:15:53And I was informed.
00:15:55Sorry, just to remind me of the case that you made.
00:15:57I may have missed it, and I'm sorry about that.
00:16:00But you, just remind me of the case that you made to the, was it to the older communists or the younger communists?
00:16:05Oh, no, to the young guys.
00:16:06The older communists weren't on the internet.
00:16:08Okay, so the young guys, you said to them what?
00:16:11You guys are never going to get real power.
00:16:14The old fossils are going to clutch onto power for as long as they can.
00:16:19Go and split the communist vote.
00:16:23Go and set up so that party A gets some of you, party B gets some of you, party C gets some of you.
00:16:30And whoever gets in, make arrangements so that you're going to be fine.
00:16:35It was a...
00:16:36So that you're going to be what?
00:16:37You're going to be fine.
00:16:39I mean, the fear of the communists were that they let go of power for real and there'll be traumas.
00:16:49There will be retribution.
00:16:51There will be violence.
00:16:53And what ended up happening is that there were no trials.
00:16:57There was hardly any retribution.
00:16:59There was hardly any violence.
00:17:00And you got a sort of lurching muddle towards freedom that stretched out over a number of elections.
00:17:09And it wasn't satisfying.
00:17:13It wasn't happy.
00:17:14But it was practical.
00:17:15And it avoided bloodshed.
00:17:18Sorry, when you say bloodshed, are you saying that the communists who committed horrendous crimes against the Romanians did not get punished?
00:17:28Oh, no.
00:17:30That's been a hobby horse of Romanian anti-communists for decades.
00:17:36Sorry, what do you mean by a hobby?
00:17:37Hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:17:39What do you mean by a hobby horse?
00:17:41That's pretty fucking disrespectful, isn't it?
00:17:43I mean, people whose families were tortured and murdered, well, they have a hobby horse called retribution or punishment.
00:17:50That's not a hobby horse, bro.
00:17:51I mean, you know this better than I do.
00:17:53I mean, people's families got tortured and murdered.
00:17:55What the fuck is a hobby horse in wanting people to be punished for that?
00:18:01When the choice is to go and engage in violence or to...
00:18:08Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
00:18:11So, collecting a whiskey tax, that's fine.
00:18:15Writing down on farmers who don't want to pay a whiskey tax, that's fine, but perhaps trying and jailing people who slaughtered hundreds of thousands and tortured hundreds of thousands, well, that's just violence.
00:18:32I don't understand your thinking, and perhaps you can unravel this mystery for me.
00:18:36Okay, well, digging back to the whiskey tax, the tax was passed by duly elected, freely elected, not fake elections legislators.
00:18:50The state needs money.
00:18:52So, unless we're all going to be anarchists, we have to concede that the state is going to tax something.
00:18:57Okay, so, bro, this is kind of insulting, right?
00:19:01No.
00:19:01I mean, we're all smart enough to know, and I already conceded that point.
00:19:06So, what you're saying is that using violence to collect a whiskey tax is good, but using violence to jail communist dictators is bad.
00:19:19What I'm saying is that when you don't have the numbers, and you don't have the ability to actually take power, you can't...
00:19:30No, that's not what you said.
00:19:31What you said was...
00:19:32It is what I said.
00:19:33What you said, no, no, no, it's recorded.
00:19:37What you said was that not having retribution against communist dictatorships, against communist dictators, avoided violence.
00:19:47Yes.
00:19:48So, you're fine with using violence to collect a whiskey tax, but you're not fine with violence being used to punish murderous dictatorships, or dictators.
00:20:01The problem with Romania...
00:20:03No, no, I don't want to hear about the problem with Romania.
00:20:06We're talking about a moral question here.
00:20:08Soar, um, the moral question is, uh, is your violence going to actually do anything?
00:20:18No, that's not the question.
00:20:20No, that's not the question.
00:20:21Well...
00:20:21No, that's not the question.
00:20:23You're happy with the use of violence to collect a whiskey tax.
00:20:26You're not happy with the use of violence to punish dictatorships.
00:20:29No, you're, you're mischaracterizing my statements.
00:20:33So, let's, you know, you say you're conceding things, but you're, you're kind of backing out of it.
00:20:40You said that, you said that not, you said not punish, we already agreed on this.
00:20:44And look, I'm not trying to get you, I'm genuinely trying to understand this, this line of thinking.
00:20:49So, you were, you said, well, the whiskey tax is fine because the government has to enforce the law, blah, blah, blah, right?
00:20:54So, so, so, uh, killing farmers who resist the whiskey tax, uh, which is what happens if you resist a whiskey tax, right?
00:21:02So, so, killing farmers to, to collect your tax is fine.
00:21:06But, what was good about not punishing dictators from Romania is that it avoided violence.
00:21:13So, violence in the collection of taxation is fine,
00:21:16but violence in the punishing of murderous dictators is, is bad.
00:21:22That's what I'm, that's just, do not, I'm trying to unravel.
00:21:24And the second part where that you're, you're mistaking my position.
00:21:27So, there is a, a real issue with whether your rebellion will work or not,
00:21:36whether your violence will work or not.
00:21:38If you're going to, to raise the flag of rebellion, win.
00:21:43And if you're, if you look at the numbers and you say, nope,
00:21:46we, we're not going to win, don't raise the flag of rebellion.
00:21:49That is a, uh, a good summation of my statement, of my position.
00:21:56If you have the ability to do a negotiated settlement so that you trade and you say,
00:22:04okay, well, you guys kind of give up some of the power and do a long, slow surrender.
00:22:09And we will pay for that by not insisting on retribution.
00:22:15Then that is superior to them hanging on to the, to the dear end and, uh, having a, a transfer, a transfer later and a transfer that is much more violent.
00:22:28Is it, am I distinguishing it enough for you to see the difference now?
00:22:35So, morally, the dictators should have been punished, but it was impractical.
00:22:41Yes, it was impractical.
00:22:42It remains impractical.
00:22:44But morally, the dictators should have been punished.
00:22:47Um, yes.
00:22:50Sorry, what's the pause there?
00:22:51I'm not sure I understand what the pause is.
00:22:53I'm trying to, uh, what, what the pause is because you're, you're parsing things in, in ways that made me a little suspicious.
00:23:02Like, all right, is this going to be misused against me?
00:23:05It was, it was just a, a, a quick two, three second check.
00:23:08Okay, that's fine.
00:23:09I mean, to me, um, I try to just be honest about what I think and feel and the reasons behind it rather than trying to strategize about, uh, other people's reactions.
00:23:19Okay, so it wasn't really the avoidance of violence, it was the avoidance of failure, and the failure might lead to increased violence.
00:23:26So, if you said to, uh, the people in charge, we are going to, um, we are going to punish you, then they'll hold on to power, which makes things, uh, a problem might make things more violent.
00:23:40But if you say, there won't be any retribution, then they'll, uh, give up power, right?
00:23:46And, and then you, you, well, it's less that they'll give up power than the, you're, it's divide and conquer.
00:23:55Those, those old fossils ended up with small pensions in, in crappy apartments.
00:24:00The, the new guys, the young guys, uh, speeded, sped up a generational power structure, and they rose to power in other parties.
00:24:10They were chameleons.
00:24:12They were opportunists, not ideological communists.
00:24:14Okay, so, so, so, why wouldn't you...
00:24:19Tealing off the chameleons was, was a way to get, to break the dictatorial coalition.
00:24:25Okay, so, why wouldn't you promise that there would be no retribution, gain power, and then just try the murderous dictators?
00:24:37I mean, why wouldn't you just lie to them?
00:24:38Mostly because they're 30 to 40% of your cadre.
00:24:44Well, no, not the dictators themselves.
00:24:47No, the, the, the chameleons.
00:24:49Sorry, the chameleons are who again?
00:24:51The chameleons were the young communists who were, who didn't give a darn about Marx, but, uh, were perfectly willing to go along, to get along, to eventually get a rise in power.
00:25:03So, the, the corrupt bargain was, and it, it absolutely was corrupt, uh, was, hey, come, you know, split out, you go to the liberals, you go to the peasants party, you go to the, this other party, and all of the parties will be enlarged enough that the communist leftovers will lose power.
00:25:27You know, and you'll have your buddies in all of them, and that, okay, and, sorry, go ahead.
00:25:33And that will, uh, will allow, uh, a progress for the country, and any little moral compromises that you, that you did along the way, we're gonna, that, they'll, they will necessarily be, uh, swept under the rug.
00:25:52Because any party that does that, they're, they're, uh, making themselves irrelevant.
00:25:59So, this is, this is sort of a forensic examination of, of what has, what actually happened.
00:26:05It was a way to get past, uh, a, uh, an unfortunate period of, of halfway out of communism, halfway in communism that Romania had from late 1989 to, uh, 96, excuse me.
00:26:22Okay, and, and, sorry, go ahead.
00:26:23And, and, and, it, it was done without violence, and, um, it, it was a muddle, and it was ugly, but it was progress.
00:26:34Uh, okay, fantastic.
00:26:36So, how has Romania been doing, uh, since the 80s?
00:26:41Um, considerably better.
00:26:43It's, it, it has, it went from all of the competent people are, have communist roots, to there are,
00:26:52a lot of people who are outside the communist party and actually can form a legitimate government that's competent.
00:27:00And, uh, I, I, I'm not a great fan of, of the last administration, but, you know, it's well within the, the normal parameters of a European, uh, democratic republic.
00:27:13Yeah, uh, I'm just looking here.
00:27:16Romania is, uh, partly free country, score 48 out of 100.
00:27:21It is 53rd in the world for free press.
00:27:25Um, they're not sending assassins to the University of Chicago to shoot uncomfortable professors anymore.
00:27:33This is the positive.
00:27:33Got it.
00:27:35Okay.
00:27:36So, uh, for those who aren't, like, I guess you were fairly involved in the transfer of power from communism to...
00:27:43I was an outside agitator.
00:27:45And, and I, I, I'm tempted to start doing it again.
00:27:50But that's, you know...
00:27:52Sorry, what does outside agitator mean?
00:27:54It means that I left Romania as a toddler because Richard Nixon bought me out of bondage.
00:27:59And I grew up in a, uh, emigre neighborhood, emigre, uh, social milieu in, uh, New York City,
00:28:10learned my Romanian in a church basement, and, uh, self-taught to be literate in that language
00:28:16because there was just no opportunity to learn it.
00:28:19Okay, so what were you doing?
00:28:21And, uh, this sounds skeptical.
00:28:23I don't mean it that way.
00:28:24But, so what were you doing in the 80s in managing this transition or helping this transition along?
00:28:30Early 90s, the, the place to be to, to, the, the hot debating talking shop, you know,
00:28:37Twitter not having been invented yet, was a, a Usenet group called Soap Culture Romanian.
00:28:43And I was there, um, you know, being, you know, abused for my awful Romanian and for other issues.
00:28:52And, uh, uh, you know, doing philosophy, philosophical and political, uh, advice to the non-communist.
00:29:02So, sorry, you were on a Usenet group.
00:29:04Yeah, I was on a Usenet group.
00:29:06Um, I, I also had a website later on.
00:29:09I had a, I actually had, uh, Olivier Germain, who was the, who used to be president of the Communist Party,
00:29:16actually do a, uh, a, um, press conference about my website and claiming it was the CIA.
00:29:25Very spooky.
00:29:27Okay, and were you anonymous on this website, or could people find you?
00:29:31Um, it was that experience that, that convinced me to start using my real name.
00:29:37Sorry, that's not using what?
00:29:38Uh, it, I was, it was a little of this, a little of that.
00:29:42I actually switched during that time period.
00:29:44So, I went.
00:29:45Switch, sorry, switch from what to what?
00:29:47Switched from Spenombs to using my real name.
00:29:49Okay, so, so.
00:29:51I'm very findable under my, under my current name.
00:29:54Okay, so, at what point in the transition did you become, uh, known as who you are?
00:30:01Oh, dear Lord.
00:30:0330 years ago, I'm digging.
00:30:04Um.
00:30:05Just roughly.
00:30:06I mean, was it during, after, before?
00:30:08Uh, it was kind of, uh, during.
00:30:13During.
00:30:14Okay, got it.
00:30:15Okay, so, uh, the, the, somebody with political aspirations talked about your website, and you
00:30:20were on a Usenet group, for the most part, anonymously, until the transition was underway.
00:30:25Do I have that right?
00:30:27Um, uh, pseudonymity at that point was not, it wasn't.
00:30:35wasn't that thick of a shield during that time.
00:30:40It was Romanians in the diaspora were very paranoid, Bun, for good reason.
00:30:47Well, then it's not paranoid, right?
00:30:49Well, I mean, I talked about the University of Chicago for a reason.
00:30:54There's a guy.
00:30:55He was shot in the bathroom.
00:30:56And I grew up, you know, my church congregation was mostly, maybe 35% former political prisoners from the Romanian state.
00:31:15And so, very well aware of the unfortunate reality.
00:31:26Okay, I don't want to argue about whether evildoers could be dangerous.
00:31:31Of course, they can, right?
00:31:32So, and I'm not trying to diminish.
00:31:34I'm just trying to understand what it is that you're doing.
00:31:36So, you were on a Usenet group, and you had a website that someone in politics talked about, and you were pseudo-anonymous for a good portion of that time.
00:31:48Now, would you say that you were in fear, or did you have concerns about blowback from the work that you were doing in the 80s and early 90s?
00:31:56Oh, I was young and dumb, didn't think much about it.
00:31:59If I had, I wouldn't have done it.
00:32:01Okay, so you should have had caution, but you didn't, because you were young, as you say, young and dumb, right?
00:32:06Oh, yes.
00:32:08Okay, so the only reason that you didn't suffer anxiety about the political work that you were doing was because you didn't understand the danger.
00:32:22That's fair.
00:32:23That's fair.
00:32:23Okay.
00:32:24Okay, so I think we're back to our original point that if you are effective in politics, it interferes with the quality of your happiness.
00:32:32And the only reason it didn't with you was like a blind zebra, you didn't see the lions.
00:32:37Light zebra.
00:32:38Okay, I don't know what to do with that analogy.
00:32:40Well, no, it's just a matter of that there was danger, and you said, I was young and dumb and didn't recognize the dangers, and I wouldn't do it now if I knew then what I know now.
00:32:50So it was, I mean, it wasn't really bravery.
00:32:53It was, and I'm not, again, I'm not trying to diminish what you did, but I'm just using your words.
00:32:57So my argument was that if you're going to promote political liberty, it's going to interfere with your personal happiness.
00:33:02And then you say, well, I did promote political liberty.
00:33:06I had some effect, but it didn't interfere with my personal happiness because I was young and dumb and didn't understand the danger, which is why I'm saying, like, a blind zebra doesn't see the lions.
00:33:16But that doesn't mean that the zebra is wise, he just doesn't see the lions in the same way that you were young and dumb, as you said, and didn't see the danger of what you were doing.
00:33:24I take your point, and you do have one.
00:33:29And the only thing is, I'm older now, and I'm considering doing it again.
00:33:35So I'm not going to promote it.
00:33:36But you would do it now with much more caution, right?
00:33:38So we'll just leave it at that.
00:33:41But you would do it now with much more caution and much more concern.
00:33:44And I think there would be wisdom in that, right?
00:33:47I mean, as we all know, there's a long history of people opposing political power coming to some very bad ends, indeed, under just about every system of government.
00:33:55So when you were asking me, so my question at the beginning was, are you asking me how do you promote personal happiness, Aristotelian eudomania, or are you asking me how to promote political liberties because the two are usually in conflict?
00:34:13And, you know, more power to those and, you know, great honor to you for pursuing political liberty.
00:34:19I'm glad, in a sense, that you didn't feel the dangers because I'm sure it made you more effective and so on.
00:34:24But that was sort of back to my original question, that if you are going to promote political liberty and you're effective, then there will be a blowback, almost certainly.
00:34:36And so if you're promoting political liberty, it will often come at the expense of personal happiness.
00:34:42And if you're promoting personal happiness, it will often come at the expense of effective opposition to tyranny.
00:34:49And so that's where our sort of conversation started.
00:34:52I think we've come full circle and we're mostly in agreement.
00:34:55Well, I would quibble with the, I think you didn't start with often.
00:35:00Often I'll buy.
00:35:01Yes.
00:35:02But not necessarily.
00:35:03Always.
00:35:05I'm sorry, not necessarily often, always?
00:35:07No, no, no.
00:35:08Not necessarily always.
00:35:09So often?
00:35:10Okay.
00:35:10No, no, no, no.
00:35:11I never said, I never said, no, no, no, no, no.
00:35:14Don't mischaracterize me.
00:35:16I said, as certain as these things can be, given the variegues of human choices and free will and all that kind of stuff, but in general, it is the case that if you're effective in opposing the interests of evil people, they will find ways to make you unhappy.
00:35:34Right?
00:35:35That's their general goal in one way or another.
00:35:38So that, I mean, is that an iron law?
00:35:40Well, of course not, because there's free will and choice and exigent circumstances and, you know, blind luck and, you know, all these kinds of things.
00:35:48So, no, I never said always, of course.
00:35:50Okay.
00:35:51Well, I think we have come to as close to agreement that human beings can practically do in a few minutes.
00:35:58So, good.
00:35:59Okay, good.
00:36:00So, I'll answer both questions.
00:36:02So, in the promotion of personal happiness, and I think that there's a way to do both, but in the promotion of personal happiness, reason equals virtue equals happiness.
00:36:10So, you have to live with integrity and you have to live with honesty, you have to live with a fair amount of moral courage, you have to promote the good, and you have to interfere with the interests of evildoers.
00:36:21Now, the way that you interfere with the interests of evildoers is not with attack, not with punishment, certainly not with violence, but with ostracism.
00:36:31So, if there are people who promote corrupt and immoral or evil practices in your life, in your environment, of course, you sit down with them and you try to reason with them and you try to bring them to a wiser and more moral viewpoint.
00:36:42But if they remain relentlessly attached to their corrupt and immoral perspectives and arguments, well, you cut them out like a tumor.
00:36:54You don't have them in your life.
00:36:56You just don't have them in your life.
00:36:57Now, it doesn't actually take, it only takes three to five percent of people to affect social change because most people are just led around by the nose.
00:37:06They'll just do whatever is, do whatever seems popular or makes them feel safe.
00:37:12They are not moral beings.
00:37:14They are consensus beings.
00:37:16And so, they'll just go along.
00:37:17And we know this, of course, from the Milgram experiments and other psychological experiments that people mostly will just go along with the herd.
00:37:23And it only takes three to five percent of people to really make a social change.
00:37:29So, what you do is you, I mean, I've got whole books on ethics and virtue and integrity and honesty.
00:37:36Freedemain.com slash books.
00:37:38They're all free.
00:37:38And so, what you do is you act with moral purpose and you try to bring people into your sphere of virtues and virtuous actions.
00:37:48And if people are hostile or negative or opposed to virtues and virtuous actions, again, you reason with them, but only for a certain amount of time.
00:37:57We're not immortal and we can waste a lot of time trying to turn corrupt people into virtuous people.
00:38:01At some point, it does become like trying to talk a cancer into a muscle.
00:38:07And then, you simply don't have people in your life who are corrupt and immoral.
00:38:13I mean, this is a not, it's not a shocking thing, but it's shocking how little it's practiced.
00:38:17Because most people just, again, will go along with, well, these are the people I grew up with and these are the people who've been around my whole life and all of that.
00:38:25So, the personal is the political in this sense.
00:38:27So, I mean, for instance, if I had people in my life who'd been totally bloodthirsty to strip the unvaccinated of their rights over COVID, if I had such people in my life, I would sit down with them and talk them through the wrongs that they did and remind them about the Nuremberg Codes and all these kinds of things.
00:38:50And I would expect them to have some sort of moral breakthrough, to have a genuine contrition, apologies, to learn some wisdom, to learn about the corruption that they weren't only just capable of, but had actually manifested.
00:39:03And I would expect a serious change in moral attitude in order for me to continue that relationship.
00:39:10Because I'm not a big fan of people who want to strip me of my rights for maintaining my bodily autonomy and integrity.
00:39:17So, that would be an example.
00:39:18Now, if they did, you know, made apologies, made restitution, figured out a way, you know, maybe they did therapy or studied moral philosophy or something so that they would have a bit more of a bulwark against their own susceptibility to generalized corruption, then, okay, that's reasonable recompense.
00:39:37And I would continue the relationship with a little bit more caution than before.
00:39:41But if they denied, if they gaslit, if they wouldn't admit anything, well, we did the best we could with the knowledge we had.
00:39:47And it's like, no, you didn't.
00:39:48No, that's just a lie.
00:39:49So, I would not continue a relationship with somebody who'd been that corrupt and false.
00:39:55And really enabled some pretty terrible things.
00:39:59And just wanted to sail on like nothing happened.
00:40:03In other words, I'm not saying that I would punish people.
00:40:06Well, I am saying that I would not associate with them.
00:40:10And ostracism is the powerful thing.
00:40:12Now, ostracism spreads a very powerful political message.
00:40:16And it also, although it's difficult at the time, it also enhances the quality of your personal relationships.
00:40:23And so, ostracism for the corrupt, the irredeemably corrupt, again, you have conversations, but ostracism for the irredeemably corrupt, both is a very strong political message and also improves the quality of your personal relationships.
00:40:41So, that's my sweet spot for those two things.
00:40:43Do you think that the ostracism that you are talking about is a personal activity, or do you think that it is also a collective activity?
00:40:56What is a collective activity?
00:40:58Ostracism.
00:40:59No, no, but I don't know what is a collective activity.
00:41:02As in, I ostracize person X because they have done wrong and they're not willing to go out of it.
00:41:10And I tell other people, you should ostracize person X, and other people do, you're collectively ostracizing it.
00:41:22Well, I mean, if someone did a great evil to me, I wouldn't hide that from others, but I never tell people what to do because the important thing is that people have integrity.
00:41:32Because, you know, a lot of the COVID mess came out of obeying orders, so the last thing I'd want to do is have people obey an order I gave.
00:41:37It's not that I have any power to do that, but I would simply say, this person did this evil thing, or did this corrupt thing, or supported this evil or corrupt thing.
00:41:47I've chosen not to associate, and here's why.
00:41:49And then people can make their own decisions, if that makes sense.
00:41:52It makes sense.
00:41:55It seems to, you seem to be trading effectiveness for, I'm not sure what you're trading it for.
00:42:05But I don't know how you end up in effective ostracism, where people...
00:42:15Sorry, I don't know what you mean.
00:42:16I can only control my own moral decisions, right?
00:42:18And the degree to which I communicate what is morally good actions, right?
00:42:24I can't control other people.
00:42:25And so, by putting this argument out, you know, to eventually millions of people will hear it.
00:42:31So, by putting this argument out, I'm making a strong case for ostracizing corruption.
00:42:39And so, I'm not sure what you mean by, like, I've had three quarters of a billion views and downloads of my shows, whereas you had a Usenext blog in the 80s, and you're telling to me, well, I don't know, man, that's not very effective.
00:42:51No, no, I'm not saying that, okay, I'm not saying that, I'm not looking to pick on you personally.
00:42:59I'm looking to...
00:43:00No, no, I'm not saying you're picking on me personally, but I'm making a case here, and you're saying, well, let's see how that's effective.
00:43:06But I've been very effective in communicating this.
00:43:09Okay, so are we talking about you personally, or the strategy as would be done by your every...
00:43:15But the strategy doesn't exist outside the actions of individuals.
00:43:18The strategy isn't out there like a tree or a rock or a cloud.
00:43:22The strategy is out there in the actions of individuals.
00:43:27So, if you're saying, well, I don't know how the strategy does it, it's like, well, it's up to you to advocate for it.
00:43:34It's up to you to practice it.
00:43:35What I'm trying to get at is that, you know, there are people like me who are looking at tools, and how do we do things that are up till now, personal acts,
00:43:49and how do we coordinate better so that we can do them in larger groups and become more effective.
00:43:56So, I'm trying to gain a sense of what your view would be in terms of what's in bounds in terms of tool use to make this more than just one individual person,
00:44:12no matter how influential, to do something into something that multiple people are doing in a coordinated fashion to gain more effectiveness.
00:44:22Well, fantastic.
00:44:23And listen, I mean, I'm not going to gainsay that, but what I'm saying is that if you, look, I'm not saying mine is the only path, of course not.
00:44:30But what I'm saying is that if you want to maximize the combination of personal happiness and political effectiveness, ostracism is the way to go.
00:44:38Now, if you say, well, no, I want to coordinate in this, that, or the other way and promote, you know, freedom and virtue and all of that, and you're effective,
00:44:46well, then you're directly interfering with the preferences of evildoers, and you're going to get your blowback.
00:44:52So, what I'm saying is that if you are willing to sacrifice personal happiness for the sake of political effectiveness, then sure, political organization is the way to go.
00:45:00If you want to maximize the combination of personal happiness and political effectiveness, ostracism is the way to go.
00:45:07But yeah, if other people, I just want people to know what the costs are of the other approach.
00:45:13Fair enough.
00:45:15All right.
00:45:15Well, thanks, man.
00:45:16I appreciate the conversation, and I really appreciate the back and forth.
00:45:20And, you know, congratulations on the work that you did.
00:45:22Obviously, Romania is a better place now than it was under communism, and the degree to which you had an effect on that, I think, is very noble and honorable.
00:45:30And I certainly thank you on behalf of humanity for that work.
00:45:33Thank you for your patience with me struggling, let's say, with the details.
00:45:40No, no problem.
00:45:41These are tough things to talk about, but I appreciate your persistence.
00:45:43All right.
00:45:45Keaton.
00:45:47Keaton.
00:45:48Buster or...
00:45:50Who's the other famous Keaton?
00:45:52Oh, the Batman guy.
00:45:53Jeez.
00:45:54Michael Keaton.
00:45:55There we go.
00:45:55Or Peter Keating.
00:45:56I guess we're just stretching the syllables now.
00:45:58What's on your mind, friend?
00:45:59Do you believe that rationality can be calculated like math at some point?
00:46:06Yes.
00:46:07Okay.
00:46:08How do you think that's going to happen?
00:46:11What do you mean?
00:46:12What do you mean it's going to happen?
00:46:13It's been a 3,000-year project of philosophy to use reason to get to the truth.
00:46:19Right.
00:46:19But I'm saying we could fix the annotation and make it so that it's not even a debatable
00:46:26thing anymore.
00:46:28Well, sir, what do you mean by fix the annotation?
00:46:30So right now, the annotation of language is the alphabet, right?
00:46:38If we're talking about English, would you agree with that?
00:46:42English is composed of letters in the alphabet.
00:46:44I certainly agree with that.
00:46:45Okay.
00:46:46So what I'm suggesting is that we could reduce...
00:46:51We could fix the annotation by removing the redundant letters and by ordering according
00:46:58to symbolic logic principles.
00:47:02What are the redundant letters in the alphabet?
00:47:05So the redundant letters are going to be S, C, Q, W.
00:47:16Let's see.
00:47:17Are you trolling?
00:47:19I mean, this sounds like the old Steve Martin joke.
00:47:21You know, you say, hey, if you want to commit a crime, this is an old Steve Martin bit,
00:47:27like if you want to commit a crime, you put in two reasonable demands and one crazy demand
00:47:32so you can always claim the insanity defense.
00:47:34So you say, ah, I want a million dollars, a getaway car, and I want the letter M stricken
00:47:39from the English language.
00:47:41And then he laughs and says, getaway car.
00:47:42That's crazy, right?
00:47:43So are you saying that you want particular letters struck from the English language in
00:47:48order to improve rationality?
00:47:50So I would be Teffen because you're getting rid of S, right?
00:47:53Here's what I would be.
00:47:54I would say we combine those redundant letters into the most logical,
00:48:02multifaceted letter for each case.
00:48:07So the idea...
00:48:08Okay.
00:48:09Yeah.
00:48:09Sorry.
00:48:09Drugs are bad, kid.
00:48:10Drugs are bad.
00:48:11Kids don't do them.
00:48:12All right.
00:48:13Tomas, you are up, my friends.
00:48:16And we have a slot or two if anybody else wants to join in.
00:48:20Tomas, what is on your mind?
00:48:22It's me again.
00:48:23I have a case.
00:48:27I will tell you, when I went to study in Germany, I met this Austrian girl and the
00:48:34first thing she told me was, I have ADHD and I didn't make...
00:48:39Sorry, I have what?
00:48:41ADHD.
00:48:42ADHD.
00:48:42Sorry, go ahead.
00:48:43Yeah.
00:48:44So I didn't make much of it because I didn't know what ADHD was, but a few months happened
00:48:50and then somehow maybe the algorithm, I start investigating about ADHD and I figure out that
00:48:58I might have it.
00:49:00And so I spent maybe a couple of days just focusing on the literature, investigating literature.
00:49:06So I found out, for example, that ADHD has a strong genetic component as well.
00:49:12But some people reject the notion of ADHD as well.
00:49:16They say that it may be due to low conscientiousness, if you take the big five personality traits.
00:49:25So in my search to improve myself and to try to be a better person, I want to be able
00:49:34to do things.
00:49:35And the other day, we also had a podcast about anxiety.
00:49:38I also think that my anxiety is pretty, pretty low.
00:49:41So I don't have an out of will to do stuff.
00:49:44And I think this all may be linked, but I think to end the question or your comment with
00:49:50this, I want to ask if maybe you think that it's also the modern society that has something
00:49:56to do with all of this.
00:49:58And of course, what's your take on ADHD?
00:50:00Do you think it's a real thing or not?
00:50:02That would be it.
00:50:02Thank you, Stefan.
00:50:04Well, sorry.
00:50:05Let me ask you this.
00:50:06Did you grow up with a father?
00:50:08Partially.
00:50:09Uh, up until three years old.
00:50:12And then I saw him every weekend.
00:50:15Well, do you know that for boys, ADHD symptoms evaporate when they're spending time with their
00:50:22fathers?
00:50:23No, I had no clue.
00:50:25Yeah.
00:50:26Yeah.
00:50:26Girls can't, like, moms can't raise boys.
00:50:30Moms cannot raise boys.
00:50:33And, you know, we, we could argue, of course, alternatively, that fathers cannot raise
00:50:38daughters, but single fathers, the children of single fathers do about the same in terms
00:50:46of outcomes as the children of two-parent households, whereas the children of single
00:50:52mothers just do badly.
00:50:54On average, tons of exceptions, but on average, single mothers are the worst parents statistically.
00:51:00Again, single fathers, things are pretty equal to two-parent households.
00:51:05And so, um, tell me a little bit about your relationship with your mother.
00:51:09Did you respect her?
00:51:10Was she calm?
00:51:11Was she authoritative?
00:51:12Was she honorable?
00:51:14I mean, how did your relationship with your mother go when you were growing up?
00:51:17I would say that she's too kind.
00:51:20She didn't put a lot of discipline into me.
00:51:23So whenever she had to discipline me, she had to call my father and my father had to,
00:51:28through the phone, try to discipline me and, and make me understand that some things are
00:51:33wrong.
00:51:34And yeah, that, that's the main feature I would say about my mom.
00:51:39And, uh, I don't really like that about it.
00:51:41And, uh, now I have a, a new daughter and I, I, that's the first thing that comes to my
00:51:47mind that I want to avoid with, with my daughter.
00:51:49Right.
00:51:50And I, I sympathize with that.
00:51:52So in, in our evolution, women generally raised children for the first, say three to six years
00:52:00of life.
00:52:01And then the children would pass over to the fathers for further instruction as a whole.
00:52:06And in lots of religions, if there's a family split up, the father would get, uh, the children.
00:52:12But now of course, the children are an income source for the single mothers, both through
00:52:16the state and through child support and so on.
00:52:18So that's become economic rather than what's best for the children.
00:52:23So in general, the practical, empathetic, connected, keep them safe child raising of infants and
00:52:33toddlers was the province of women, but the moral instruction of children was the province
00:52:39of the men.
00:52:41Does that sort of accord with your experience as a whole?
00:52:44It does.
00:52:45It does.
00:52:45Because I, I always felt like there was something missing there.
00:52:48I, I, I, I need, I need maybe a father figure in a sense closer to me because I still had
00:52:54a father, of course, but he wasn't a father figure.
00:52:57You needed a father.
00:52:58Yeah.
00:52:58A father that was present because I just saw him every weekend or every Sunday actually.
00:53:03So it wasn't a lot.
00:53:05It was not every day, every day, day to day life.
00:53:08Right.
00:53:09So from, for most children or for many children, let's say many children, for many children,
00:53:16many boys, we have eliminated male authority from their environment.
00:53:22So they don't have a father in the home.
00:53:26They go to daycare, which is almost exclusively run by women.
00:53:29And then they have kindergarten, all women, and then they go to primary school.
00:53:36And many of the boys will not even hit any kind of male authority figure until they're
00:53:44in their teens.
00:53:46Now that is a, an experiment, absolutely unprecedented in human history, unless there are brief moments
00:53:57where the men are all killed in war.
00:54:00So, and of course, if the men are all killed in war, then the enemy tribe or the enemy country
00:54:05takes over your land.
00:54:06And then there are new authority figures for the boys.
00:54:10But to sustain decade after decade, a situation or environment where boys have no access to
00:54:17male authority figures is unprecedented in human history.
00:54:21And it comes out of fiat currency, government control of the family court system, and all
00:54:25other kinds of, you know, borrowing and debt and money printing, all other kinds of terrible
00:54:29things.
00:54:29But we have now, I mean, I mean, the big wave of divorces hit late 60s and 70s.
00:54:36In fact, the divorce rate now is lower than it was in the 1970s.
00:54:39And of course, when you get divorced and your mother becomes a single mother, you generally
00:54:45move into a bad or poor section of town, a bunch of rent control departments, and mostly
00:54:51what are around are either trashy men who you can't respect or no men because it's the
00:54:57matriarchal manners, right?
00:54:58They call them, in the ghettos, they call them the goldfin farms, like the section eight
00:55:01housing where there's just all these women with no, no men around.
00:55:05So, so yeah, we've, we've tried this experiment of raising boys without fathers, without male
00:55:14authority figures.
00:55:15And of course, because of the increasing godlessness in the West, you can't even pray to a male
00:55:21authority figure.
00:55:22And because lawsuits generally destroyed the Boy Scouts, you couldn't even get male authority
00:55:28figures that way.
00:55:29And because hostility to Christianity in particular has removed priests from many children's lives.
00:55:37I mean, you know, this, this constant blood libel against the Catholic church for enabling
00:55:41pedophiles, which it certainly did at times, but childhood sexual abuse is infinitely worse
00:55:47per capita, almost infinitely worse per capita in single mother households than it is in the
00:55:51church and also in government schools as opposed to a Christian church.
00:55:56But nonetheless, it's all this blood libel to have women say, well, I can't send my, I can't
00:56:01send my sons to a priest, right?
00:56:03So it's all just removing male authority figures from boys and girls, of course, and girls suffer
00:56:09too, but in different ways where we're talking about and talking to, to a man here about this.
00:56:13So we've tried this whole experiment of removing male authority figures from boys' lives.
00:56:20And the result has been, as is quite predictable when you deviate from evolution, right?
00:56:25I mean, the whole, the whole point of communism or is, is as distinct from fascism is that communism
00:56:32views history as prejudice and, and the way that we evolved is wrong and bad.
00:56:38And so they say, well, we don't need families, even though we evolved in families, we don't
00:56:43need fathers, even though we evolved with fathers.
00:56:45So there's this whole experiment to just try and completely rip out from under the feet of
00:56:51society, the entire rug of history and how we evolved.
00:56:55And it's not a conscious decision that is discussed in society, right?
00:57:00It's all this subterfuge.
00:57:01It's all this, uh, uh, subversion, right?
00:57:04So nobody sits there and says, well, it's true that for millions of years, males of the
00:57:11hominid and I guess Neanderthal and certainly the, um, homo sapiens for millions, hundreds of
00:57:18thousands, millions of years, boys grew up with strong father figures.
00:57:23Let's try just getting rid of that shit completely.
00:57:26Let's just try completely getting rid of that for hundreds of millions of boys around the
00:57:31West, right?
00:57:32Not, not another country so much, but around the West.
00:57:34So it's not something that was discussed, but it's just, it's been advanced in these sort
00:57:39of surreptitious march through the institutions, slow asphyxiation stuff, right?
00:57:43So what has been the results of taking male authority figures step-by-step, piece-by-piece
00:57:52out of boys' lives?
00:57:55Well, you end up with revolutionary impulses.
00:57:59And what I mean by that is, and this is something that happens to me constantly.
00:58:03So without a doubt, I put myself forward as a strong male authority figure.
00:58:08And Thomas, disagree with me if you think that's not the case, because I don't want to speak
00:58:12outside of your experience.
00:58:13I would say that I do have some revolutionary tendencies, but I'm also quite soft at the
00:58:19same way.
00:58:20So my revolutionary tendencies, I would say I keep mostly hidden, especially when I was
00:58:26younger, not so much anymore.
00:58:28I think I've been developing myself a little bit after I was, I hit 22 years old or something,
00:58:35but I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:58:37I was a bit unclear on my question.
00:58:39Do you think that, or do you perceive me as a strong male authority figure or something
00:58:45else?
00:58:46Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:58:47Yes, I do.
00:58:47Actually, yes.
00:58:48Yeah.
00:58:49Okay.
00:58:49Because I get internet dad stuff all the time, right?
00:58:52So I put myself forward as a strong male authority figure.
00:58:56And it's from the view that I see, particularly now I'm back on Twitter, on X, sorry, I'm back
00:59:05on X.
00:59:07And it's something that, of course, I haven't seen for half a decade.
00:59:11I was playing jazz clubs, not stadiums.
00:59:13So I was mostly around people who kind of got philosophy and, you know, we would reason
00:59:17together.
00:59:18But being back on X, there is a very interesting hostility to me as a male authority figure,
00:59:28a strong male authority figure.
00:59:30And by strong, I'm simply saying, like, I'm certain.
00:59:32I'm certain I know what's right.
00:59:34It's the two plus two argument that happened last week.
00:59:36And then I did a debate on Sunday morning with someone about this.
00:59:42So a strong male authority figure is, yeah, I'm certain, right?
00:59:45So I'm having this pretty wild debate on X.
00:59:49I think it was last night or this morning, which is people refuse to say that the earth
00:59:56orbits the sun.
00:59:58It's pretty wild.
00:59:59And like certainty is the prerogative of the male mind to a significant degree.
01:00:05Not absolutely, of course, but it is, right?
01:00:08Because men are about dealing with prosaic, tangible, material, empirical, rational reality,
01:00:14whereas women tend to work with relationships and people.
01:00:18And with relationships and people, certainty is kind of impossible.
01:00:23But with tangible, practical reality, certainty is a necessity.
01:00:26You can't doubt that the deer exists if you're going hunting.
01:00:29You can't doubt about physics when you're shooting an arrow or throwing a boomerang or whatever
01:00:34you're doing, right?
01:00:34So men have to be certain, whereas women generally work with less certainty because they're dealing
01:00:41more with people and relationships and we can't read minds and all of that.
01:00:45Reality doesn't lie to you, but people sure as hell do.
01:00:48So it's easier to be certain about reality than it is about people.
01:00:51So in removing male authority figures, we have removed certainty.
01:00:55And so we get all of this postmodernism, subjectivism and relativism and so on.
01:00:59And people won't say obvious things like two and fucking two make four and that the sun
01:01:06is, um, the earth orbits the sun, right?
01:01:10And then people are saying, well, but you know, it's slightly off center because there's
01:01:13the massive other things in the solar system.
01:01:14It's like, yeah, but they don't orbit.
01:01:16That's like saying because we have tides, the earth orbits the moon.
01:01:22No, the moon orbits the earth.
01:01:23Now, does the earth, does the, uh, does the moon have a gravitational effect on earth?
01:01:27Sure it does.
01:01:29And does the earth wobble slightly?
01:01:30Yes.
01:01:31But orbit is circumnavigating around.
01:01:33That's an orbit.
01:01:34I mean, if I tell you to walk around the building, you don't just stand there and wobble
01:01:38a bit, right?
01:01:39If you accept the mission when you walk around the building, circumnavigating, right?
01:01:42I don't say I'm circumnavigating the globe if I'm just standing there jiggling my leg
01:01:47in my chair.
01:01:48So just basic certainty.
01:01:50It's this midwit stuff where people, the moment they see certainty, they get messed up.
01:01:55They get tense.
01:01:56They get hostile.
01:01:57So when I come in with certainties, yeah, two and two make four.
01:02:01Yep.
01:02:01The earth orbits the sun.
01:02:02And then people are like, well, but the sun has, uh, the sun is affected by earth's mass
01:02:07as well.
01:02:08It's like, never said it wasn't, but the earth orbits the sun.
01:02:11And then when I'm just saying male certainty, people get messed up.
01:02:14They get hostile.
01:02:15They get tense.
01:02:15They get angry.
01:02:16They get manipulative.
01:02:17They get weird around strong, authoritative male certainty.
01:02:23And we saw this with the atheists, right?
01:02:25Where they say, I say, well, why wouldn't you lie?
01:02:27And they come up with a whole bunch of nonsense, which is just hedonism and carrots and sticks
01:02:31and all that.
01:02:33And, uh, they don't have any particular answers.
01:02:35And then I give them the answer and they run away because authoritative male certainty, particularly
01:02:39in the realm of morals has been not, it's not absent.
01:02:43It's been driven out of the public square.
01:02:45And this is why atheism is never punished by the powers that be.
01:02:50Philosophical certainty is the stuff that I talk about.
01:02:52Yeah, that gets punished.
01:02:54But atheism is not punished because atheism is the removal of male authority.
01:03:00And this is why you end up with these peculiarly feminine arguments for morals that come out
01:03:05of atheists.
01:03:05Well, it feels good and, you know, I don't get punished for it.
01:03:07I get social rewards.
01:03:08I mean, that's just carrot and stick shit.
01:03:10That's just, that's how you train dolphins to do their flips, not how a moral man or a
01:03:14moral woman conducts him or herself.
01:03:17So with regards to ADHD, I mean, how are boys supposed to discipline their minds in the presence
01:03:27of the female chaos of the single mother mindset?
01:03:33Now, I don't want to speak out of turn.
01:03:36So tell me, was your relationship with your mother, in terms of how you viewed her thought
01:03:42processes, her integrity and her conclusions, was she steady and predictable or jumpy and
01:03:47chaotic?
01:03:49I'd say she wasn't especially chaotic, but I disagreed with her a lot on, maybe sometimes
01:03:56on moral topics.
01:03:56Because I, she has some tendency to lie sometimes, even if it's a small lie.
01:04:02And I wasn't, I was, I was more of a friend of the truth in some sense.
01:04:09And, and that made me not disrespect her a little bit, but that made me not trust her as much,
01:04:17maybe.
01:04:17No, but lying and a lack of trust is chaotic.
01:04:21Oh, I mean, if, if I praised free markets and then communism from time to time, if I
01:04:27praised science and mysticism from time to time, that would be chaotic, right?
01:04:31There would be no consistency in what it is that I argue for.
01:04:35If I said, well, reason is the path to truth.
01:04:37And then I said, uh, dreams, drugs, and revelation of the path to truth, that would be chaotic,
01:04:43right?
01:04:43Because you wouldn't be able to predict what the hell I was saying from one day to the
01:04:46next.
01:04:47So integrity is the opposite of chaotic.
01:04:50And if women as a whole, particularly single mothers are impulse driven, then they, what
01:04:56they try to do is win in the moment, which is what lying, lying is trying to win in the
01:05:00moment at the expense of integrity and trust.
01:05:03So that is chaotic.
01:05:04Lying is chaotic because you can't trust the person.
01:05:07A lack of trust is chaotic because you cannot rely upon them to have consistent principles
01:05:11and follow them.
01:05:12Or at least when they deviate from following those consistent principles, apologize.
01:05:17And fix it, right?
01:05:18So it seems to me, and I'm, again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it
01:05:22seems to me that there was more chaos in your mother's mind.
01:05:28I think so.
01:05:29And I think the solution I found to that as a child was to just, um, get out of it.
01:05:36Like, uh, ignore reality in a way, because I, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
01:05:43Sorry.
01:05:43Ignore reality or ignore your mother's chaotic mindset?
01:05:47Good point.
01:05:48Good point.
01:05:49I think I, it started with ignoring my mother's chaotic mindset because, oh yeah, you actually
01:05:54made me remember because at first when she tried to discipline through my father, I took
01:05:59attention.
01:05:59So I cried maybe, and I understood a little bit, but then I didn't give, uh, I, it didn't
01:06:05make nothing of me, out of me.
01:06:07So I started, yeah, I started ignoring her in a way, ignoring her reality.
01:06:12And then it made it spread out a little bit to, to reality itself.
01:06:15So did you mean that you stayed home?
01:06:17Is that what you mean by, I'm not sure what you mean by ignoring reality.
01:06:21Uh, I, I tend not, I tended not to be, especially before, not to be too conscious about the world,
01:06:26uh, around me.
01:06:28Okay.
01:06:29So you, you avoided the world around you and you avoided your mother's chaos.
01:06:34Is that right?
01:06:35Yes.
01:06:36Okay.
01:06:36Now, one of the reasons that you would avoid the world around you is if you were out in
01:06:41the world around you, you would develop more rationality because the world, I mean, not
01:06:45the people, but the world is rational.
01:06:47And then when you develop more rationality, when you came home, you would end up in more
01:06:52conflict with your mother.
01:06:53That's true.
01:06:54Yeah.
01:06:54I tended to avoid conflict.
01:06:56Well, sure.
01:06:57Because I mean, I tend to avoid conflict with people I can't win with either.
01:07:00Right.
01:07:01I mean, this is so when I'm engaged in debates with people, then I look to see.
01:07:06Do they have the capacity for, uh, rationality or do they have the capacity to admit when
01:07:11they're wrong?
01:07:12So in that sense, so if they, if they can't and they don't, and, and women have a tough
01:07:17time admitting that they're wrong men, we have to admit when we're wrong.
01:07:22So for instance, if I say I'm good at baseball and I keep missing the baseball when I swing
01:07:29at it, I'm good.
01:07:30I'm good.
01:07:30I'm good hitter in baseball.
01:07:31I keep missing that.
01:07:32I'm a bad hitter in baseball.
01:07:33Like I can't hide that.
01:07:35Whereas if women say I'm a nice person, well, they can just rejiggle the definitions that
01:07:40they want.
01:07:40Like you even said, my mother was nice.
01:07:42No, she wasn't.
01:07:43Not, I'm not saying she wasn't nice at all, but she wasn't nice in that she wouldn't give
01:07:48you rational rules.
01:07:49She wasn't nice in that she lied to you.
01:07:51And she wasn't nice in that her behavior kept changing based upon the whim.
01:07:56That's not nice.
01:07:57That's just chaotic.
01:07:58And again, I'm not saying she wasn't nice, but the examples you gave me were not examples
01:08:02of niceness.
01:08:03It's never nice to lie to people unless there's some exigent emergency or whatever.
01:08:06Right?
01:08:06So, so men, we can't hide or just make up our own definitions.
01:08:13Like if I say, Hey man, I'm a great hunter and I keep going out and coming back with nothing
01:08:17when there's game around, then I'm not a great hunter.
01:08:20I can't hide it.
01:08:22So men have to admit that they're wrong in order for the tribe to survive.
01:08:27If I've got bad eyesight and I can't shoot, shoot the bow and arrow at the deer, then
01:08:33I have to hand over the bow and arrow to somebody with good eyesight.
01:08:36Otherwise we all starve to death.
01:08:37Does that make sense?
01:08:39It does make sense.
01:08:39Yeah.
01:08:40Because no bullshit.
01:08:41Yeah.
01:08:42There's no bullshit.
01:08:43Like men have this no bullshit reality to themselves.
01:08:47Right?
01:08:47If I say I'm good at cutting down trees, but I can barely lift the ax, then some other
01:08:51guy is going to, what's he going to do?
01:08:54Cut the tree.
01:08:55Yeah.
01:08:55He's going to take the ax out of my hand and say, I'm sorry, we got to cut the tree
01:08:59and you barely able to lift it.
01:09:01It doesn't work.
01:09:01Right?
01:09:02So women live in a much more subjective world.
01:09:06Of feelings.
01:09:07And please understand, this is nothing negative or disrespectful towards women.
01:09:12We have each, each of us, males and females have each evolved to produce the magnificent
01:09:17species that we are.
01:09:18Right?
01:09:19I just watched Mel Gibson's Hamlet the other day and I love that speech.
01:09:22You know how, uh, how noble and, and rationality, blah, blah, blah.
01:09:26It's a fantastic speech.
01:09:27And so this is nothing disrespectful to women at all.
01:09:30We, we work effectively in very different spheres.
01:09:33In other words, if women being as subjective and rational on, on average as men had worked,
01:09:40that's what we would have done.
01:09:41But women need the support of other women.
01:09:44Men need to operate within empirical reality.
01:09:47Needing the support of other women to raise your children means that you're in a subjective
01:09:50universe of feelings, emotions, and relationships, which is why women are drawn to jobs where
01:09:56they work with people.
01:09:57And men generally are drawn to jobs where they work with, with things.
01:10:01And, you know, I guess maybe because I have sort of the, the mind of a really rational
01:10:07guy, but I was raised in a very female environment.
01:10:10I have a pretty good combo of the feelings and the rationality.
01:10:14And this is why, of course, uh, I mean, I remember, um, many years ago, uh, I was on the
01:10:21phone with a friend of mine and we were talking about, you know, economics and philosophy and
01:10:26politics and so on.
01:10:27And it was great.
01:10:28Right.
01:10:29And, you know, after an hour or so, or hour and a half, uh, and there was a woman I was
01:10:34dating who was in the room and she's like, that was the weirdest conversation I've ever
01:10:39heard.
01:10:39I'm like, what are you talking about?
01:10:40It's like, well, you didn't even ask him how his marriage is going and blah, blah, blah.
01:10:44And it's like, and I said, well, we're men.
01:10:48We, we, men will talk about these things.
01:10:50Now, if he wanted to talk to me about his marriage, I would be happy to hear, but he didn't.
01:10:54We talked about what we wanted to talk about.
01:10:56And she's like, well, it's just weird.
01:10:57And I said, no, it's, it's weird for you.
01:10:59It's weird for me that you and your girlfriends don't talk about philosophy, economics, and
01:11:05politics, but I recognize that you're a female and I'm a male and don't try and turn me into
01:11:12one of your girlfriends.
01:11:13And I won't try and turn you into one of my male friends.
01:11:15We will enjoy the difference between males and females and recognize that we're complimentary,
01:11:19not conflictual.
01:11:20But the fact that I'm incomprehensible to you in my communication style with a male makes
01:11:25perfect sense.
01:11:27I mean, why would, why would you want to fix that?
01:11:29Why would you want to turn me into a female?
01:11:32It's just weird.
01:11:32It's weird to me.
01:11:33I've never really understood.
01:11:34And this is like, God, 30 years ago or something, right?
01:11:37So yeah, it's just strange to me.
01:11:39No, more than 30 years ago.
01:11:40Yeah, it's just strange to me.
01:11:41So with regards to ADHD and things like that, ADHD, I think to some degree, again, please
01:11:50understand I'm no doctor, I'm no expert, I can't diagnose anyone, I can't reject any
01:11:54diagnosis.
01:11:55These are just my absolute subjective, whim-based, personal nonsense opinions.
01:11:59But I think ADHD in general happens when a male mind is exposed to too much female subjectivity
01:12:09and chaos.
01:12:11And I think that that short-circuits the male mind to some degree.
01:12:18And of course, if there was a female mind and the female mind was raised with almost exclusively
01:12:23male authority figures, the female mind would not get training and mirroring and development
01:12:29from the female mind.
01:12:31And I think that would short-circuit the female mind.
01:12:33Because ADHD hits boys a lot more than girls.
01:12:36And what we've done is we've taken male authority away from boys.
01:12:42And as a result, we have male minds constantly being trained and dominated by the female mind.
01:12:50And I think that is unprecedented.
01:12:52I think it's unhealthy.
01:12:54And I think it produces a certain amount of short-circuitry because you just don't have
01:13:01compatibility in that way.
01:13:04You have compatibility between the male and female mind, but only as equals, not in terms
01:13:09of dominance.
01:13:09Women cannot raise boys.
01:13:12Females cannot raise males.
01:13:15And when we try, I think we get these kinds of short-circuits, if that makes sense.
01:13:19It does make sense, Stefan.
01:13:21I will think about it because it makes sense to me, at least now.
01:13:25And to end this, maybe I would like to commend on something I found out.
01:13:29So I found out about my reliance on my mother when I was 22 years old, Para.
01:13:37And I started hanging out with more men.
01:13:40So I think that's helping me a little bit.
01:13:44So what do you think about, as an adult, maybe these people that didn't have a father figure
01:13:49to get closer to a father figure, like you, for example?
01:13:52What do you make of that?
01:13:54Well, I certainly think it's healthy.
01:13:56I do think it's...
01:13:56I went to boarding school from the ages of six to eight.
01:14:00That did some decent stuff, although we still had a female in charge.
01:14:04We had a matron who was in charge of our particular ward, who was actually kind of...
01:14:08She was a real nurse ratchet type from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, a real cold and
01:14:12creepy woman.
01:14:14But yeah, I certainly think that the philosophy to me was great because a lot of male authority
01:14:19figures eat philosophy.
01:14:20So I do think that it is important.
01:14:23And the other thing too is that the way that you would diagnose this in yourself, I think
01:14:29is really interesting.
01:14:31So this is just a back of the napkin calculation.
01:14:34It's not designed to be absolute.
01:14:35But if you come across, let's say I post something, right, and you get upset, and there's nothing
01:14:45wrong with being upset, right?
01:14:46There's nothing wrong with being upset.
01:14:48So I'm not, you know, triggered is to say it's bad to be emotional.
01:14:52No, it's nothing wrong with being emotional.
01:14:53It's nothing wrong with being passionate about these things.
01:14:56But if your response is not direct to the argument, right?
01:15:06So when I say that, because I asked a question from somebody who was a radical skeptic, do you
01:15:14accept that the earth orbits the sun?
01:15:17Now, if you resist certainty, that's more female.
01:15:26That's more female.
01:15:27Because women work in the realm of relationships and personality, and it's really hard to come
01:15:34up with absolutes in that circumstance.
01:15:38And you have to overlook negative characteristics in order to build a community of people who can
01:15:44help, women who can help watch your children, evolutionarily speaking.
01:15:47So for women, absolutism is negative.
01:15:52For men, absolutism is positive.
01:15:55So if you cannot reply to the question, does two and two make four with yes, absolutely,
01:16:03but you feel the need to hedge, or you feel anxious about certainty, like you're going to
01:16:08get punished for being certain, that's more female as a whole.
01:16:14It's one of the reasons why there tend to be more male physicists, more male mathematicians,
01:16:19more male economists, and so on, because you're dealing with math, facts, reality, empiricism,
01:16:24science, and absolutes.
01:16:26It's why the vast majority now these days of psychologists are women, and social workers,
01:16:30and nurses, and daycare workers.
01:16:32And again, this is nothing negative to women, nothing negative to men.
01:16:35We're just talking about the division of labor that has characterized the evolution of our
01:16:38species.
01:16:40So if someone says two and two make four, and you feel anxiety about saying, well, yes,
01:16:46obviously, two and two make four.
01:16:47If you need to hedge it, then you don't get the bow and arrow to shoot the deer.
01:16:55You don't get the axe.
01:16:56I don't know.
01:16:57I don't know if that's really a tree.
01:16:58Oh, come on, man.
01:16:59We just need to cut down the tree.
01:17:00Well, I'm not 100% sure that's an axe.
01:17:02Oh, God, you just get elbowed aside, and somebody picks up the axe and cuts down the
01:17:06damn tree, because we got to get shit done, as men, in particular.
01:17:12We got to get shit done.
01:17:14And this is the self-diagnosis that I think is really important.
01:17:18So when I say, do you accept that the Earth orbits the sun, and you're like, oh, I don't
01:17:25know, man.
01:17:26I got to find a way out of being certain.
01:17:27I got to find a way out of being yes.
01:17:30I got to find a way out of being absolute.
01:17:33That's female.
01:17:35And I just want to reiterate, I don't mean this in any negative way.
01:17:40Women are beautiful, wonderful.
01:17:42They're the reason we're all here.
01:17:45They're the reason we're alive, for the most part.
01:17:48And this is nothing negative towards women.
01:17:50We work, in general, tons of exceptions.
01:17:52We work in different spheres.
01:17:53So how you diagnose estrogen overexposure is your relationship to two and two make four.
01:18:03This is why people don't understand.
01:18:061984 is fundamentally the tyranny of the female, because Winston Smith is not allowed to say
01:18:14that two and two make four.
01:18:16What's destroyed in Winston Smith is his certainty.
01:18:18And that removes his masculinity.
01:18:22And that's why, and of course, George Orwell talks about this in the book, right?
01:18:30He says that the real tyrants were the females.
01:18:34And so what is your relationship to certainty?
01:18:37So if I say, does the Earth orbit the sun?
01:18:42Well, of course it does.
01:18:44Of course it does.
01:18:45But if you're like, ah, but, you know, it's a little bit off-center, but it doesn't matter.
01:18:51Does the Earth orbit the sun is binary?
01:18:54It's yes, no.
01:18:55And if you're not into binary, but everything's got to be shades of gray, you are over-feminized, bro.
01:19:01Your male mind cannot function as a female mind.
01:19:06Female mind cannot function as a male mind.
01:19:08And again, tons of exceptions, right?
01:19:11There are obviously very masculine and rational and empirical women and blah, blah, blah.
01:19:15I get all of that.
01:19:16I'm talking in general.
01:19:17It's a round peg in a square hole, or vice versa.
01:19:22So you can't become just female.
01:19:25All you can do is abandon the male.
01:19:27And so it's your relationship to certainty.
01:19:28So when I come and I say two and two make four, the Earth orbits the sun, gases expand when heated,
01:19:35right, the InfoSquare law is valid, reality is empirical, reason is absolute, that's male certainty.
01:19:42Because I'm out here chopping down trees and hunting deer.
01:19:45And it's like, oh, but, you know, ah, oh, I can't, certainty is going to be punished.
01:19:50Well, certainty among women is punished, but doubt among men should be punished.
01:19:54Sorry, you were going to say?
01:19:56No, I was just going to thank you about the conversation.
01:19:59It made sense to me, and I have a lot to think about it now.
01:20:02So, yeah, just thank you, and thank you for doing this show and helping us to navigate through the currents of philosophy.
01:20:11Thank you very much.
01:20:12My absolute pleasure.
01:20:13It's a great joy to chat with you all.
01:20:18And, yeah, I love women.
01:20:20I love the female mind.
01:20:21I love men.
01:20:22I love the male mind.
01:20:23We have to embrace that which makes males and females unique in our thinking.
01:20:29I love women's sensitivity.
01:20:31I love their devotion to relationships.
01:20:33I love their sense of community.
01:20:36And I think it's beautiful, and it's absolutely appropriate, and it's foundational to why we're here and what makes life worthwhile.
01:20:44A man builds a house.
01:20:45A woman makes it into a home.
01:20:47Both are equally important in the quality of life.
01:20:50I mean, okay, you can't decorate an empty space so that the house is needed first, but where I live now, in my wife's patented, beautiful, girly world, everything smells nice and is soft, and everything's pretty.
01:21:06And it's really absolutely lovely, and the areas where I have my say is the studio is bare and covered in cables, and not pretty at all.
01:21:19In fact, I've had artwork I've been meaning to hang up in the studio probably for four years.
01:21:23Oh, look at it.
01:21:23I'm sitting right now.
01:21:24Okay.
01:21:25So, yes, so I would say that, you know, vive la différence, as the French say, as treasure our differences, but I still stand by it.
01:21:33Statistically, women cannot raise boys, and if you have an uneasy relationship to certainty, that means that you probably should hang around more with a certain male authority figure, and that might probably help whatever is going on in your mind.
01:21:52Well, thanks, everyone.
01:21:53I love you guys.
01:21:54These great conversations.
01:21:56Have yourself a beautiful, beautiful afternoon.
01:21:59It's Monday, yes.
01:22:00So I won't see you guys till Wednesday night, but I may be able to rip off another show before then.
01:22:05And don't forget to go to freedomain.com, sign up for the podcast, fdrpodcast.com has all the feeds, fdrpodcast.com, fredomain.com slash donate to help out the show.
01:22:16Thank you, my lovely friends.
01:22:18I'll talk to you soon.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:19Bye.
01:22:21Bye.
01:22:21Bye.
01:22:23Bye.
01:22:23Bye.

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