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«ترامپ فریب چاپلوسی پوتین را خورده است» – کارا-مورزا، فعال سیاسی مخالف روس
ولادیمیر کارا-مورزا، فعال مخالف روس و زندانی سیاسی سابق، می‌گوید رفتار رهبران غربی با پوتین در گذشته «تکان‌دهنده و شرم‌آور» بود و به او میدان داد و موجب تضعیف دموکراسی در روسیه شد. به‌گفته‌ی او، «قابل فهم نیست» که کاخ سفیدِ ترامپ چرا این‌گونه تحت‌تأثیر «تملق‌گویی‌های» پوتین قرار گرفته است.
لب بیشتر : http://parsi.euronews.com/2025/07/31/trump-has-been-deceived-by-putins-flattery-kara-murza-russian-opposition-political-ac
مشترک شوید: یورونیوز به یازده زبان دیگر در دسترس شماست
ولادیمیر کارا-مورزا، فعال مخالف روس و زندانی سیاسی سابق، می‌گوید رفتار رهبران غربی با پوتین در گذشته «تکان‌دهنده و شرم‌آور» بود و به او میدان داد و موجب تضعیف دموکراسی در روسیه شد. به‌گفته‌ی او، «قابل فهم نیست» که کاخ سفیدِ ترامپ چرا این‌گونه تحت‌تأثیر «تملق‌گویی‌های» پوتین قرار گرفته است.
لب بیشتر : http://parsi.euronews.com/2025/07/31/trump-has-been-deceived-by-putins-flattery-kara-murza-russian-opposition-political-ac
مشترک شوید: یورونیوز به یازده زبان دیگر در دسترس شماست
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00:00my guest this week on the europe conversation is russian political activist vladimir kara
00:12mirza he was sentenced to 25 years in prison in siberia for criticizing putin's war in ukraine
00:18he was released in 2024 as part of a prisoner swap but he tells me that despite everything
00:24he's still optimistic about the future for russia and ukraine
00:30vladimir kara mirza russian opposition politician former political prisoner thank you very much for
00:34joining us on the europe conversation thank you so much for inviting me it's a pleasure to be here
00:38now i'm sure so many people have said this to you but obviously you should not be here you were
00:42poisoned in 2015 and 2017 you had a five percent chance of living you were told you were in a coma
00:48for a month and then just a couple of years ago you were sentenced to 25 years in prison in siberia
00:53and you managed to be released as part of a deal with the u.s former u.s president joe biden tell
00:59us first of all about that and you know the first time you got poisoned what exactly happened how did
01:05they do it how did you realize what was happening when i've been involved in russian opposition
01:09politics for many years i came to work with boris nemtsov who was the most prominent leader of the
01:13russian democratic opposition former deputy prime minister who was assassinated in front of the kremlin
01:17literally 10 years ago in 2015 i came to work with him back in 1999 and i was myself a candidate
01:24for the russian parliament back in 2003 when it was still possible for opposition candidates to be on the
01:28ballot to this unimaginable and for many years um boris nemtsov and i were involved in in the
01:33international advocacy campaign for the passage of magnetsky act so the laws that would introduce
01:38targeted personal sanctions in a form of visa bans and asset freezes against officials of the putin
01:43regime and of any other dictatorial regime around the world who are personally complicit in human
01:47rights abuses and and corruption and as you can imagine that's not a very popular thing in the
01:52kremlin because these people the people around putin have long been used to the idea of stealing
01:59in russia and i was first poisoned in may of 2015 i had no doubt from the beginning that it was the
02:05russian security service but now we know thanks to an international media investigation led by
02:10bellingcat that have identified actually the people not just the unit but the specific people officers in
02:14the in the russian fsb whose task it is to physically liquidate political opponents of
02:18of vladimir putin um this was may 2015 i was at a meeting with my colleagues in moscow and suddenly
02:24i felt that i had difficulty breathing uh and then i felt like i couldn't breathe at all and i
02:28started to to sweat my heart began to beat um really really fast and before i knew it i was i was
02:35unconscious it's a very scary feeling to to feel that you're dying this is what i felt like i felt
02:40that this is the end uh and then i was brought to a hospital and and doctors told my wife that i had
02:44about a five percent chance to live i was in a you know an artificial life support with a multiple
02:48organ failure in a coma and um the official diagnosis that was given to me uh at my moscow hospital
02:55was toxic action by an unidentified substance which you know translated from medical speak to normal human
03:01language means poisoning i did survive um the doctors saved my life and then i had to basically
03:07spend a year to learn to walk again to learn to use a spoon again i mean everything was just gone and
03:12then as soon as i was able to i went back to russia and it was in my work but then it happened again
03:15in february 2017 the exact same thing same diagnosis same same conditions and now thanks to that amazing
03:21bellingcat investigation we know of the existence of this special unit within the russian fsb the
03:26russian federal security service uh and so this is the reality of today's russia that there is a
03:33special government unit whose job it is to physically eliminate to murder political opponents of
03:38vladimir putin you're outspoken against the corruption and the sort of sanctimony and so on
03:43in within russia and that trajectory has left us to a place where it's impossible to have an opposition
03:49politician people being poisoned uh falling out from being thrown out of windows assassinated on
03:55foreign soil and so on i mean how did it get to that point was it that the international community
04:01ignored putin well it was shocking and shameful frankly the way many western leaders behaved when putin came to power
04:06you know there's this myth that is often propagated nowadays by people both inside but also outside of
04:12russia very often for reasons of self-justification and the myth is that there was some kind of an early
04:17putin who was supposedly okay you know who believed in reform or modernization and cooperation with the
04:21west and then something went horribly wrong along the way and and now it's this putin who's doing all
04:26these things nothing could be further from the truth putin was putin from the very beginning in fact i remember
04:32very well the day i understood exactly who that man was in what direction he would take our country
04:37on a 20th of december 1999 this was before he became president he was still prime minister
04:41he came to lubyanka square in moscow at the former kgb now fsb headquarters to officially unveil
04:47a memorial plaque to yuri and drop off a long time former soviet kgb chief was one of the people
04:53instrumental in the 1956 invasion of hungary who was somebody who prioritized uh the suppression of
05:01domestic dissent when he was chairman of the kgb somebody who embodied everything that was wrong
05:05with the communist system and it is to this man that vladimir putin chose to unveil a memorial
05:10plaque in russia symbols are important in russia symbols matter and i had no more questions uh he
05:15could not have chosen a more potent symbol to signal the direction of his future rule and just in case
05:19anybody had uh still had questions in the first year of his presidency mr putin reinstated
05:25the stalin era soviet national anthem as the national anthem of the russian federation what do you think
05:30when you heard the likes of uh us envoy steve whitkoff praise vladimir putin and say oh he prayed for
05:37donald trump when he got shot at during one of his um rallies and that he's actually a good guy
05:43look vladimir putin of course is a former kgb officer and as he once himself publicly admitted the
05:48favorite part of his job was recruiting people and to be a successful recruiter you need to know
05:54what your interlocutor sort of what kind of person he or she is and you need to sort of get
05:58in their trust and that's exactly what he used when he came to power george w bush was a devout
06:04christian is a devout christian and so when putin met with him he told him the story about a cross
06:09that mother had given him that you know survived in this massive fire at his dacha and whatever else
06:15and that's when president bush came out and said he he looked into his eyes and so his soul and you
06:20know i think he rightly calculated putin did that the best way to do this with donald trump is through
06:25personal flattery and that's exactly what he did with that conversation about praying for him
06:30um and also of course uh giving him a painting that mr whitkov brought to to washington i mean look
06:38it's these are tricks that have been used by soviet and not just soviet security services for for
06:44decades it's incomprehensible to me how serious people can fall for this kind of stuff in the 21st
06:50century so look let's look at the opposition because i know in for a long time you are very
06:54optimistic about the future of russia i mean i still am yeah that's the thing because it doesn't look
06:59like there's any hope for optimism putin is alive and well because i remember for a long time people
07:03kind of thought that he might have cancer and so on and there's no doesn't look at there's any chance
07:08of him being overthrown uh bergosian sort of tried that and and failed i'm not just a politician i'm
07:14also a historian by my education and the one thing we know very clearly from the history of russia
07:18is that all major political change in our country happens like this right swiftly suddenly and
07:24completely unexpectedly both the czarist regime at the beginning of the 20th century and the
07:29communist regime at the end of the 20th century went down in three days literally not a metaphor
07:33this is how things happen in russia none of us knows when or how change will come what we do know
07:39is that nothing is forever and everything that had a beginning will have an end and every
07:44dictatorship in the history of the world has fallen do you have any ideas that there
07:48may be anyone within the regime that would be willing to overthrow putin what i do know for
07:55sure is that there are many people in russia inside russia today who completely disagree with this regime
08:00who categorically oppose this war of aggression and you know when i was in prison i would receive
08:04thousands of letters from all over the country every month from people i'd never met from towns
08:08and cities i've never been to some of them i hadn't even heard of and these were the people
08:11who took the time and the risk by the way to write to somebody like me you know an enemy of the
08:16people using the official prison correspondence get through to you some did some didn't but many did
08:20because they have to go through prison censorship and of course you need to leave all your contact
08:23details and so on and people wrote to say that they think like i do they think the same of this
08:30war as i do and you will remember last year in 2024 we had a so-called presidential election in russia
08:37with you know a circus with putin and a couple of pre-approved clowns running alongside him on the
08:41ballot and then suddenly there was this guy this candidate a former member of parliament and a
08:45lawyer by the name of boris nadezhdin who announced that he would run as the anti-war presidential
08:51candidate saying he's against the war in ukraine and he would end it on day one and the public
08:56response was just unimaginable suddenly all over russia in large cities and small towns you would see
09:02hours-long queues of people standing at his campaign offices to sign the ballot nominating petitions
09:08because you need to get a certain number signatures to be registered as a candidate and this was
09:12happening all over the country and you know i would see in the letters people would send me the
09:17photographs from those uh from those long lines and and people were saying how important it was for
09:22them absolutely because you know the putin propaganda tries to convince everybody both in
09:26russia and in the west that you know the russian society is this monolith that everybody supports
09:31putin everybody backs the war and of course he was not allowed on the ballot yeah as usually happens
09:35in russia but that was besides the point because suddenly people saw that there were people like
09:39me that they were not alone just final question because you know you're obviously a historian as
09:42well what was it like to hear you're being sent to prison in siberia because we hear of siberia
09:47from the cold war from the soviet union and just even the image of it straight away it's just
09:53cruelty in humanity death what was it like when you heard that and what was it like being a prison
09:59in siberia i mean obviously you thought you were never coming out you were given 25 years
10:02yes i was certain i was going to die there and that exchange that took place last year was was
10:06a miracle this is the only way i can describe it but um as a historian i've of course i've read and
10:12reread in prison uh many memoirs by soviet dissidents literature uh on the stalin period of course
10:18solzhenitsyn and shalamov and and of course books going even further back in the 19th century
10:24the city where i was in prison for example omsk is a large city in western siberia
10:28this is where some of the decembrists were imprisoned back in the early 19th century
10:32this was where dostoevsky was in prison so his letters from the house of the dead was written
10:36on his experience in prison in omsk and then of course in the 20th century solzhenitsyn was in
10:41that transit prison in omsk and so on what was really astonishing to me is that how everything
10:46down to the last details is still exactly the same as it was in communist times for example
10:50alexander solzhenitsyn in the first circle he describes at the very end the route that the
10:55prisoners were taken from moscow to siberia by and they went through the kubushev transit prison
11:01kubushev today is called samara back to its original name that was exactly the route uh i was taken by
11:06the stilipin carriages which is the the russian prisoner train transports which again haven't changed
11:10in a in a century and so you know there's a saying that every historian subconsciously wishes to
11:16personally experience the subject of his study i guess be careful what you wish for if that is true
11:20that's what we're going through your head as well i'm sure at the same time as well as that you're doomed
11:24but also oh this is what how i imagined it but also we know how it ends we know that none of these
11:30regimes uh continued we know that all of these regimes fell the czarist regime fell the communist
11:35regime fell and this one the putin regime will fall absolutely any time this is the point about
11:40russia we don't know it might be in five years it might be in three months lenin in his famous speech
11:45in zurich in january 1917 said that we old folks will not live to see this coming revolution revolution
11:50happen in six weeks brilliant thank you very much for joining us on the europe conversation thank you
11:54so much for inviting me
11:55you
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