- 2 days ago
In this episode of India First, the focus shifts to the aftermath of the Pahalgam terror attack and the broader implications of India's counter-terrorism efforts.
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00:00Good evening, that Pakistani terrorist, a former Pakistan Army SSG commando who led terrorists
00:26as they singled out Hindus and massacred them, shot dead at point blank range for not reciting
00:32the Kalma, well, those terrorists, the leader and two others have been shot dead by the special
00:40forces of the Indian Army and this was a joint operation in the Dachigam forest area in Srinagar
00:46and this was an operation that was mounted based on very specific intelligence inputs
00:51so that Pahlga massacre, the terrorists who were responsible for it, at least sources
00:56in the government are saying that those terrorists have been neutralized.
01:01This was Indian Armed Forces Operation Mahadev and from Operation Mahadev to Operation Sindur,
01:09India's surgical strikes on Pakistan's state-sponsored radical Islamist terror is our top focus story
01:14on the show.
01:21We have said enough is enough.
01:51Now we have raised Sudarshan Chakra.
01:57At no stage, in any conversation with the United States,
02:02was there any linkage with trade and what was going on.
02:08But opposition questions intel failure.
02:11These five states were terrorists.
02:16They were terrorists.
02:19Justice for Pehlgaan.
02:22That is our big focus on India first.
02:28So from Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to External Affairs Minister Dr S. Jai Shankar,
02:32the government today gave out details of Operation Sindur
02:34and India's diplomatic offensive that followed.
02:37And there were heated debates in Lok Sabha between the government and the opposition
02:41on multiple occasions.
02:42In fact, at one point of time, Union Home Minister Amit Shah had to rise
02:46and comment on what was happening in the House.
02:49We'll get you all those details and much more.
02:51The opposition tried to corner the Narendra Modi government,
02:54especially on the aspect of intelligence failure and foreign policy.
02:58also on the point of Pakistan-China Tango and the External Affairs Minister Dr S. Jai Shankar taught a lesson in history.
03:07And virtually, we'll get you much more on that.
03:10Those heated exchanges and the government emphatically insisting,
03:13Pakistan ko ghar mein ghuskar maara.
03:16And virtually on a bent knee,
03:18Pakistan's Director General of Military Operations shot a ceasefire.
03:22There was no American intervention or mediation for a ceasefire.
03:26We'll get you all those details.
03:27I'm Gaurav Sawant.
03:28As always, let's get started with the headlines on India First.
03:32Operation Sindhoor Firestorm in Sansa.
03:39Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh says India hit Pakistan where it hurts,
03:43hails India's armed forces.
03:45Congress asks why did India stop Operation Sindhoor if Pakistan was already on a bent knee?
03:53Why was Pakistan-occupied Kashmir not taken back?
03:56External Affairs Minister Dr Jai Shankar firmly denies reports of any phone call between Prime Minister Narendra Modi
04:07and US President Donald Trump during Operation Sindhoor.
04:10Emphasizes no talks were held on trade between April 22 and June 17.
04:17Shashi Tharoor snubs the Congress on Operation Sindhoor debate.
04:27Tharoor refuses to tow the Congress line.
04:31Maintains Operation Sindhoor was a big success.
04:40No end to Karnadaka-powered tassel after DK Shiv Kumar.
04:43Far now, Parmeshwara loyalists call for a change of Chief Minister
04:47and demand that a Dalit Chief Minister must replace Siddharaviya.
04:58Nineteen-year-old Divya Deshmukh creates chess history,
05:02beats Khuneru Hampi to become the women's World Cup chess champion.
05:13Former Pakistan Army Commando Suleiman Shah alias Musa alias Yunus
05:19was shot dead in the Dachigam reserve forest area this morning
05:23by a team of the Special Forces Commandos of the Indian Army.
05:26He, of course, is yet to be positively identified on record,
05:31but sources say the Pahalgam terrorists have been neutralized.
05:34The other terrorists, two more terrorists have been neutralized.
05:36We are waiting for an official identification.
05:39But this was Operation Mahadev.
05:42That's the Mahadev range where these terrorists were neutralized.
05:47And it starts actually right behind the Badami Bagh cantonment in Srinagar
05:51and goes all the way up to Sonamarga.
05:53Very dense forest where these terrorists were hiding
05:55or perhaps waiting to target the Amarnath Yatra.
06:00That's what intelligence agencies believe.
06:02Apparently, three more terrorists could be at large.
06:05Now, these terrorists who were neutralized
06:08were apparently involved in the April 22 Pahalgam terror attack
06:12when Pakistani terrorists singled out Hindu tourists
06:15and killed 26 of them in cold blood.
06:18The security forces were hot on their heels since April.
06:22And it was a combination of signal intelligence and human intelligence
06:26that the terrorists were finally trapped, trapped and neutralized.
06:31India Today's Kamal Jeet Kaur Sandhu with our top story.
06:34India avenges the monstrous Pahalgam terror attack after over three months.
06:51Armed forces eliminated the alleged mastermind of the carnage
06:55along with two other Pakistani terrorists in the Operation Mahadev on Monday.
07:01Lashkar commander Hashim Musa, also known as Suleiman, was gunned down.
07:08The others neutralized were Abu Hamza, alias Harris and Yasir.
07:15All three were part of a Lashkar Jaish module operating from a hidden trench in the forest.
07:24As per the interior reports, three bodies are being observed and seems to be neutralized.
07:30So this is all but still it is operation so I would not like to divulge much at this moment.
07:35Top army sources confirmed to India today that satellite phone led the forces to the terrorists.
07:42A Chinese satellite phone traced in Balsaran on July 11th triggered the joint operation.
07:49Inputs from some nomads confirmed the movement of terrorists.
07:54Operation Mahadev was launched soon after the device showed fresh activity.
08:00A cordon was laid early Monday morning.
08:03Security forces spotted the terrorists at rest and struck with lethal precision.
08:09Sources say the terrorists were sleeping when the forces opened fire.
08:14The sources claimed that Musa had lost weight to alter his appearance.
08:21As far as the operation is concerned, three Lashkar-e-Toiba militants have been gunned down.
08:27One name that is significant is of Suleiman Shah alias Musa 4G who is said to be an ex-Pakistan Special Services Group member.
08:36And finally today we have been told that he along with two others have been killed in a hideout which they had made.
08:44This is the news the nation was waiting.
08:47I think big, huge success for the security forces and the JNK police.
08:55And it has come at a very, very appropriate time.
08:58The discussion about Operation Sindur post-Pahalgam attack is in fact going on in parliament.
09:06Operation Mahadev unfolded on the ground even as parliament discussed Operation Sindur.
09:16Jammu and Kashmir CM said that there must be debate on Pahalgam and intel failure.
09:23The anti-terror operations delivered a clear message.
09:28Terrorists will find no safe haven on Indian soil.
09:33With Meer Fareed on Ground Zero.
09:36Bureau Report, India Today.
09:43So top government sources are telling India Today's reporters on Ground and Kashmir
09:46that the butchers of Baisaran have finally been brought to justice.
09:50Big question, will their mobile phones?
09:53Will their satellite phones?
09:54And apparently they even had body cams at least at the time of the Pahalgam massacre.
10:00If they still have those either on their persons or in their kits.
10:05What information can be gleaned about their handlers, their financers, their supporters
10:10and the ecosystem in which they operated between April and now?
10:16Will this help nail Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror?
10:20At a time when Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said in parliament that the Narendra Modi government
10:25believes not in dossiers but decisive action like Operation Sindur.
10:30The opposition of course tried to corner the Narendra Modi government on intelligence failure.
10:35Operational lapses and foreign policy during Operation Sindur and after Operation Sindur.
10:40But both Defence Minister and External Affairs Minister have responded to that.
10:43We'll talk about this in greater detail, first part about Pahalgam and then we'll come to Operation Sindur.
10:49Joining me on this India First Special Broadcast is Salman Soz, National Spokesperson of the Congress Party.
10:54Comes from Jammu and Kashmir, R.P. Singh is the National Spokesperson of the BJP.
10:57Left-in-General K.J.S. Dhillon, General Tiny Dhillon incidentally is former Director General of Defence Intelligence Agency
11:03and commanded the Chinar Kor, this entire Mahadev range and the forest, the Dachigam forest area is right behind the Chinar Kor headquarters
11:15extending all the way towards the Zojila area.
11:19Also with me is Dr. Tara Kartha, former Director of the National Security Council Secretariat.
11:23Salman Soz, I want to begin by asking you sir, the security forces say they've neutralized Suleiman Shah alias Musa this morning
11:30along with two other terrorists. Now, does that take the sting out of the opposition attack on where are the butchers of Pahalgam?
11:42I don't know what sting this would be, but you know, as far as we're concerned, it's been almost 100 days
11:48and there have been no arrests, zero arrests in this case.
11:53Now, there is an alleged mastermind, but as far as I remember, there were five terrorists who perpetrated that heinous attack on Pahalgam.
12:02We need to, you know, I really think that people of India are sick and tired of this business of we kill terrorists,
12:10but we don't actually talk about why did terrorists kill 26 people?
12:15Why did they make 26 families orphaned? We don't talk about that. We don't talk about why there was such a security lapse.
12:24You know, so instead we focus on the aftermath. We don't talk about preparedness. We don't talk about risk management.
12:29We talk about, oh, we did this now. That is not, I'm sorry, that is not sufficient. That is not the appropriate thing.
12:36What would be appropriate is for the government today in parliament, because that is the people's house, to say what led five terrorists go and kill 26 innocent people.
12:48They butchered them. They killed husbands in front of newly, you know, in front of new brides. We need answers for that.
12:59Now, today, maybe some terrorists have been killed. Maybe this is the mastermind, but I know there were five of them,
13:05and I don't know if there's any link to those five people, and we need answers for that.
13:11R.P. Singh, respond. R.P. Singh, respond. This is source-based information. Why not come clean on this?
13:19And shouldn't perhaps Home Minister make a statement on this, on what has happened? Who are these people?
13:26Salman Saur says there were five people, so some three have been neutralized. What information do we have on those who have been killed, sir?
13:33Well, Gaurav, those who were killed in Batla House, were they terrorists or not? I mean, you were there in that Batla House operation.
13:43When Mr. Saur answered that, the tears were rolling down Mr. Sonia Gandhi's cheek because the Batla House terrorists were killed.
13:50So they need proof for everything. But the fact is that the government have made a statement on this account.
13:57They need, they were asking proof for operations in the operation Balakot first, then surgical strike.
14:06Because this time, there were pictures, there were videos of the operations in Door, and Pakistan has admitted,
14:13yes, nine of their terrorist hideouts were hit, and their 11 army bases were hit.
14:21So they are not questioning that this time. Otherwise, they would have questioned that also.
14:26Sir, but there is a pertinent question that Salman Saur asks.
14:29Sir, there is a pertinent question that Salman Saur asks. Intelligence failure.
14:34How did these terrorists come in? How did they kill, you know, 26 innocent Indians?
14:39They singled out Hindus and massacred them. Salman Saur wants to know,
14:43why was the government or why were the security forces not able to prevent it or have any intelligence inputs on this?
14:50Gaurav, this has been admitted by Kiran Jijuji during the initial meetings that there was an intelligence failure.
14:56And then government is already looking into it, what all happened and how did it happen.
15:01But again, they will keep shifting goalposts because they don't want answers to the questions.
15:10They want to just raise questions on the valor of the Indian army.
15:14Today, sea terrorist has been killed. There are sources which are saying that they are being named.
15:20There are sources which are claiming that, yes, they have linked to the palangal, but they will question it.
15:26Now, the question is, the intelligence failure. Now, earlier the question was, why did we went for a ceasefire on a particular time?
15:37So, that's the right to ask.
15:39So, I'll just come to Operation Sindhur in just a moment. I want to stay on Operation Mahadev for a moment
15:43because Operation Mahadev is also extremely, extremely significant.
15:47And General Dilan, you commanded a core in Kashmir. You were also Director General of India's Defense Intelligence Agency.
15:54Your appreciation of Operation Mahadev and three terrorists being neutralized.
16:00And if I may, when the opposition asks, there were five terrorists, three have been killed. What about the others, sir?
16:07Gaurav, good evening and good evening to the fellow panelists and your viewers.
16:12First of all, you know, I will not comment on any political comment or a political person making a comment.
16:19So, I will keep it purely professionally defense-based or military-based reply.
16:24See, Operation Mahadev, it has come to the limelight today.
16:29It does not mean that Operation Mahadev started today. Operation Mahadev, as per my understanding,
16:35started the day 22 April the Pahlgram incident happened. Security forces started getting onto the heels
16:42of the terrorists who had committed this heinous thing. And it is just that the area in that area is so bad,
16:50the forest is so dense, the slopes are so steep, and there is hardly any civilian population out there,
16:58other than some bakharawals who are there with their livestock for the summer season.
17:03So, it is an operation which was continued, and intelligence was being built over a period of time.
17:09And today, in a typical precision surgical strike, this is called a headshot,
17:15and they were caught napping and sleeping. And I will still not say anything about the identity
17:20because it is the prerogative of the security forces to confirm the identity.
17:25But let me tell you from the photographs which are available on social media and on media,
17:30the type of weapons, the type of ammunition, the type of equipment, the type of dry rations
17:36which they were carrying, it was a very well-organized terrorist group.
17:41And it is to the credit of security forces that they could trail it for more than three months
17:46or whenever they got their whiff of intelligence about it and could neutralize them in clean operation.
17:53And when I say clean operation, it has got ramifications.
17:56Clean operation is when the terrorists don't come to know that they are being hit.
18:00So, they don't get the time to clean up their technical or electronic gadgets.
18:06And all the information on the electronic gadgets, starting from the mobile phone to satellite phone
18:11to anything else which they have on person, will be now sent for forensic analysis.
18:17And too much of intelligence will emerge from that.
18:20Secondly, all the hard things like diaries or notebooks or some identity cards or some security keys, the code word keys,
18:29they would also be recovered in proper shape.
18:33And that would also be good for the intelligence and further operations.
18:37So, if the operation is still going on, I would not like to comment on the operation and why the delay.
18:43The operation is going on and I am very sure once the operation is over, the security forces would come out and give all the details.
18:50So, I am not guessing any names, I am not guessing any affiliations.
18:54It is a good operation and whatever has come out so far, I think it's a very, very clean operation.
18:59And the security forces must be complemented because I have walked in those jungles.
19:03I have walked in those jungles as a youngster and I flew over those jungles as a corps commander.
19:08There are enough, Dr. Tara Kartha, the kind of treasure trove of intelligence that may come, you know, from their mobile phones, from the satellite phones and other war-like stores
19:19that may have been recovered while this operation is still on because I believe three are dead, three others could be out there.
19:25One bit of information that I was told, of the terrorists, two locals had been arrested earlier, three have been neutralized now.
19:33Dr. Tara Kartha, is this, is this a successful hit?
19:37But there is merit in the opposition saying major intelligence slaps that can't be covered up or brushed under the carpet.
19:44No. First, let me take this issue of that it took so long, you know, why did you take so long to get these people?
19:50If you look at the history of and you of all people would know, in Kashmir, it takes time to get these people.
19:57This is not Mumbai. It is not an urban terrorism attack where a guy is firing and you have Tukaram Omble, the constable army trained ex-army to thank for that, that you caught, you know, Ajmal Kassab.
20:09These are dense forests and it always takes time. It is meticulous, you know, intelligence gathering, looking at stuff.
20:18And especially now, when they are not by and large not getting much local help, they are relying on staying within forests.
20:27Their food is not, they are not sourcing it directly from the locals. It is left somewhere, they collected, talked to their Pakistani handlers.
20:35So it's a very complicated operation, extremely difficult to find.
20:40What we once had, I mean, he would know we had that whole communication task, all that doesn't exist anymore.
20:48So it's a different scenario. Number two, intelligence failure is very easy to say intelligence failure.
20:55If you wanted tourism in Kashmir, which we did majorly, you cannot blanket the area with troops.
21:03It just can't be done. Either you have troops or you have tourists.
21:07So we, I mean, I'm not saying it was a stark choice like that, but then that is how this works on the ground.
21:15If you want to normalize them, if you go as a terrorist, would you be happy seeing a bunch of, you know, paramilitary forces around with, you know, with their guns and things?
21:24That's not how it works. And number three, this point is very important.
21:28These people, I'm beginning to wonder if we should stop calling them terrorists and start calling them irregulars.
21:35These are battle-trained, extremely well-equipped people. They are somewhere between terrorists and regular army forces.
21:46Okay. Oh, you're absolutely right.
21:48Especially Musa, who was also a part of the Pakistan army special services group.
21:52He was a former commando of the Pakistan army.
21:54But now from Operation Mahadev, I want to shift focus to Operation Sindhur and that heated debate.
22:00A 16-hour long debate ultimately will happen in Parliament on Operation Sindhur.
22:05It started today, of course, on quite a rocky note, had to be postponed twice.
22:09Initially, it was to start at 12.15.
22:11The Parliamentary Affairs Minister says the opposition put certain conditions which were unacceptable.
22:17So, adjourned for an hour, then adjourned for an hour again.
22:20Then this information came about terrorists being neutralized.
22:22Finally, that debate started.
22:24The opposition targeted the Narendra Modi government for alleged intelligence failure, operational lapses,
22:29and failure, as the opposition puts it, on foreign policy.
22:33External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jai Shankar hit back, giving details of what the government was able to achieve,
22:38including rubbishing claims, and I'm told it's been made once again by U.S. President Donald Trump,
22:44alleged mediation for a ceasefire.
22:47Listen in to Dr. Jai Shankar, I'll get you more on the story.
22:50Now, I would like, sir, to address one particular aspect because some members have brought it up.
22:59And this is regarding the U.S. activity during this period.
23:05Sir, I'd like to inform the House that on the 9th of May, Vice President J.D. Vance called the Prime Minister,
23:15warning of a massive Pakistani attack in the next few hours.
23:22Prime Minister, in his response, made it very clear that if such an attack happens, it would meet with an appropriate response from our side.
23:32Now, sir, that attack, that attack took place and was foiled by our armed forces,
23:42and I think the House should collectively appreciate the performance of the armed forces in foiling what was a massive attack.
23:50Now, on the 10th of May, we received phone calls sharing the impression of other countries that Pakistan was ready to seize the fighting.
24:06Our position was, if Pakistan was ready, we needed to get this as a request from the Pakistani side through the DGMO channel.
24:15That is exactly how that request came.
24:19Now, I want to make two things very clear, sir.
24:22One, at no stage in any conversation with the United States was there any linkage with trade and what was going on.
24:34Secondly, there was, please listen, secondly, there was no call between the Prime Minister and President Trump from the 22nd of April when President Trump called up to convey his sympathy,
24:52sympathy, and the 17th of June when he called up Prime Minister in Canada to explain why he could not meet.
25:01So, there was no question of Trump's intervention.
25:02Do you now, does the Congress party now concede there was no U.S. intervention or mediation, as the external affairs minister says?
25:04No.
25:05No.
25:06No.
25:07No.
25:08No.
25:09No.
25:10No.
25:11No.
25:12No.
25:13No.
25:14No.
25:15No.
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25:18No.
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25:20No.
25:21No.
25:22No.
25:23No.
25:24No.
25:25No.
25:26No.
25:27No.
25:28No.
25:29No.
25:30No.
25:31No.
25:32No.
25:33No.
25:34No.
25:35No.
25:36No.
25:37No.
25:38No.
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25:41No.
25:42No.
25:43No.
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25:47No.
25:48No.
25:49No.
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25:51No.
25:52No.
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25:54No.
25:55No.
25:56No.
25:57No.
25:58When it is time to take credit, Prime Minister Modi is wearing military fatigues and he's wearing a military hat and he puts himself up front and everybody else is behind.
26:09When there is a problem, he hides behind security forces.
26:14I think that is cowardly.
26:15I think the BJP should understand the people of India do not believe these kinds of attacks on the opposition because we are asking questions on behalf of the soldiers of this country.
26:24We are asking questions on behalf of the people of this country.
26:27And that is what accountability is.
26:29That is how this country can progress.
26:31So please don't hide behind soldiers in this case.
26:33And by the way, I apologize.
26:35I don't remember the lady's name, but the lady talked about.
26:38Dr. Tharakanta.
26:40Sorry, Dr. Tharakanta.
26:41She talked about how there's a tradeoff between soldiers and tourists.
26:45I'm sorry, that's not the way we see it.
26:48I don't know what the exact data is, but I don't think there is any lack of security forces in Jammu and Kashmir right now.
26:55I don't think that is the issue right now.
26:57I think there was an intelligence failure and we should accept it.
27:00And we should say, how, what can we do to learn from this kind of tragic incident?
27:04We should not try to brush things under the carpet.
27:06And now coming to your question, Gaurav, as far as Mr. Jaishankar is concerned and what he said today.
27:13Look, let's be honest.
27:16The entire international media is ablaze with President Trump's utterances from day one.
27:26And at that time, Mr. Modi should have come out and said, look, I know that we are friends.
27:32I know President Trump and America are friends of India, but we do not accept this line.
27:38If he had come out right then and there, then it would be believable.
27:43After the fact, the foreign minister makes all sorts of, they're obfuscating.
27:47They're obfuscating.
27:48That is not believable.
27:50I'm sorry.
27:50That is simply not believable.
27:52I will not, I do not, if the prime minister, the prime minister isn't, there's the same prime minister.
27:58Gaurav, I ask you, you know it.
27:59Everybody on this panel knows it.
28:00Everybody watching at home knows it.
28:02That the prime minister said,
28:03Everybody knows that China supported Pakistan during Operation Sindhuur and the defense minister will not name China.
28:15The prime minister will not name China.
28:17Why?
28:18But, but what will they do instead?
28:22They will triple, triple the trade deficit with China from 2014 up to now.
28:28What kind of foreign policy is this?
28:30What is going on?
28:31We have to, we have to ask questions.
28:33We have to ask serious questions.
28:35This is the, this is about the country.
28:37This is not just politics.
28:39Okay.
28:39So, my question was very specifically on Donald Trump.
28:41I'll come to China in just a bit.
28:43R.P. Singh, you want to quickly respond.
28:44Dr. Tara Kartha wants to respond on the security aspect.
28:47As will General Tiny Dillon.
28:49Because there is a point that I, with your permission, of the panel, I would also like to make.
28:54But R.P. Singh, go first.
28:57Gaurav, I'm shocked at my friend from the Congress party.
29:01The way he's trying to build up this narrative.
29:05Fact is that MEA has categorically made it public what transpired between Donald Trump and Prime Minister Modi.
29:13The conversation which they had of 35 minutes, it was made public.
29:18And it was categorically said that no intervention was allowed.
29:22No intervention was seeked.
29:22And also that it was the DGMO of the Pakistan which came forward and requested for a ceasefire.
29:30And thereafter, the DGMO of India, after consulting whomever he has to consult, took a call.
29:36But they don't believe in the MEA.
29:39I mean, they still keep believing Donald Trump or they keep believing whomever they want to believe.
29:43But if I go by that parameter, then I should believe Obama also, President Obama also.
29:49Who in his book has categorically stated that Manmohan Singh didn't take action because he was concerned about the fervor of the nationalism which would take place after FJ would have attacked 26-11.
29:58And that could have benefited by the BJP.
30:01I mean, imagine this.
30:03And the party is talking about Donald Trump.
30:05But the fact says that it has been made amply clear by the Minister himself in the Parliament.
30:12And also the Prime Minister himself when he spoke to Donald Trump that no intervention was seeked as far as the ceasefire goes.
30:20Okay.
30:21Okay.
30:22Dr. Tara Kartha, you want to quickly respond because there are two things I want to play out right now.
30:25Donald Trump has once again intervened and I will, has claimed about his intervention that led to a ceasefire.
30:32I also want to bring in what the Union Home Minister, Amit Shah, he rose to speak and to intervene in Parliament,
30:40alleging or saying that the opposition has more faith in outsiders and foreigners than the External Affairs Minister of India.
30:49We'll also play out what the Home Minister said.
30:51But Dr. Tara Kartha, please go in first on the aspect of soldiers versus tourists, the point that Salman Souza raised.
30:58No, I think it is obviously a valid point.
31:01I mean, I think the opposition has every right to question it.
31:04I mean, this is very clear.
31:06But the thing is, see, Mr. Souza, it's difficult for us in these two minutes to make you understand.
31:11Every time we have tried to normalize Kashmir, for example, even the earlier attacks, when we pulled back troops, they were attacked.
31:21You remember the attack in Pulwama?
31:25That was a direct, the convoy got attacked because we had reduced the troop concentration and the movement types.
31:30You know, the kind of the checks and which is extremely harassment of the population.
31:36You know, you stop them here, you stop them there, you check them.
31:39All that had been reduced.
31:41Is that intelligence failure?
31:43Oh, perhaps.
31:44I mean, you have every right to ask.
31:46And we should definitely we should probe this.
31:49But this is the nature of the beast.
31:51The moment you start trying to normalize, which is vital that Kashmir should normalize.
31:58And I think this government, I am not a political person at all.
32:02I have served with Congress and BJP.
32:04So I'm just saying the normalization of Kashmir is vital.
32:08Otherwise, you don't win.
32:09And if I may, there are some things about national security that need to be above party politics.
32:15It is a fact.
32:16And everybody who's either in Jammu Kashmir or from Jammu Kashmir or covered operations in Jammu Kashmir,
32:23the moment you reduce security forces and create a vacuum, you know, Pakistan state-sponsored terror moves into that vacuum.
32:30We've seen it.
32:30When brigades were removed from South Kashmir, when sectors were removed, terrorists moved into that vacuum.
32:35We've bled repeatedly because of that.
32:37Take, for example, when uniform force was removed and sent to the northern areas for the prediction of our northern borders,
32:44you had terrorists who moved into that vacuum.
32:46So, you know, that's very clear.
32:49But before I get you more on the story, I want you to listen in, one, to what Donald Trump has said once again,
32:55and listen in to Amit Shah's intervention.
32:58Of the five, now this would be six that we've stopped.
33:11I've stopped six wars in the last, I'm averaging about a war a month.
33:17The last three were very close together.
33:20India and Pakistan and a lot of them.
33:22Two countries that we get along with very well, very different countries from certain standpoints.
33:27They've been fighting for 500 years, intermittently.
33:32And we solved that war.
33:35You probably, so it just came out over the wire.
33:37So we solved it through a trade.
33:38I said, I don't want to trade with anybody that's killing each other.
33:42So this perhaps, if I were to go by the number of times the Congress claims Donald Trump has repeated this claim, 25 was the earliest claim.
33:51And this is the 26th claim by Donald Trump.
33:55One, of course, last time he said these two countries have been fighting for 1,000 years.
33:59Now he says they've been fighting for 500 years.
34:01And that he dangled the trade offer and said, you guys stop fighting or there will be no trade.
34:08The Home Minister, of course, when External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jai Shankar, reiterated that Donald Trump did not intervene.
34:15And he said there was no conversation between April 22nd conversation and the 17th of June conversation.
34:23Listen in to what the Union Home Minister, he had to rise and speak to the opposition.
34:28Listen in.
34:31Listen in.
35:01Listen in.
35:02Listen in.
35:08Look out.
35:08If you say to the minister, sit and sit and sit and sit and sit, what do you say to the minister?
35:14I mean, you should totally say them.
35:19Otherwise, we can't understand our members.
35:25Dr. Tara Kartha, before I bring in our political guest, I want you to wane on this.
35:30Repeatedly, Donald Trump insists he mediated for peace between India and Pakistan.
35:37And he dangled the trade carrot.
35:40Government of India says that never happened.
35:43What do you make of Trump's intervention?
35:45He's now talking of intervening between Cambodia and Thailand, again with trade.
35:51Yes, imagine.
35:52And Malaysia said that didn't happen.
35:54I mean, the Malaysian Foreign Minister went on record to say that never happened.
35:58Exactly.
35:59I mean, this is a Malaysian, you know, mediation which is going on.
36:02And someone who says 500 years we've been fighting.
36:05I mean, I'm amazed that the opposition even takes it seriously.
36:08However, it's actually a very fine distinction.
36:12The Pakistanis went running to the US.
36:14They do that every single time.
36:17We know that.
36:18I remember from Kargil.
36:19Yes.
36:20Exactly.
36:21So they did it.
36:22So finally, maybe they called us and we said, you tell the DGMOs to talk.
36:26That's what happened.
36:27You want to call that mediation?
36:29Go ahead and call it what you want.
36:31But understand the fact that the Pakistan DGMO called you and that's why you stopped.
36:37That is a plain and simple fact.
36:40There was US intervention because the Pakistanis went running to them.
36:44I mean, I actually don't see what the problem is here.
36:47Okay.
36:48Sorry.
36:49Should I?
36:50I'll stop there.
36:51Yeah.
36:52Yeah.
36:53No.
36:54Okay.
36:55I'm going to understand.
36:56And Salman says, the government of India has made it very clear.
36:59There was no US mediation.
37:01The external affairs minister on the floor of the house is saying, multiple interlocutors
37:06spoke to us.
37:07And he's giving details about how Pakistan was repeatedly targeted.
37:12The defense minister spoke of initially targeting nine terrorist training camps, including
37:16Bahawalpur and Mureetke.
37:18Tongue firmly in cheek.
37:19Government also says, from a party or a government, Congress government, that did nothing
37:24after 2611.
37:25They expect us to do more.
37:26But I'll come to that point in just a moment.
37:29When the government says that we did not seek US mediation.
37:34US did not mediate.
37:35When US contacted us, as did other foreign countries, because there are two countries that
37:40are at war, we said, tell the Pakistani DGMO to call our DGMO and seek a ceasefire.
37:45There will be ceasefire.
37:47This is non-escalatory.
37:48Is that difficult to believe, sir?
37:50Why does the Congress not believe that?
37:53So first, again, I'm sorry, I have to go to the previous points because, you know, I
37:58try not to intervene when you speak.
38:00Yes.
38:01You know, we should all look back at history.
38:05And in the last 25 years, the fewest number of soldiers who were martyred in JNK was in
38:142012.
38:15That is also the year when the fewest number of people have died in JNK since, you know,
38:21since the start of this whole spate of violence in JNK.
38:27So clearly things were working well at some point.
38:31Okay.
38:32Now, I don't know if there's any evidence, any evidence to suggest that any troop drawdown
38:38led to, say, Udi, led to Pulwama, RDX, so much RDX to kill, so 40 CRP of Jawans.
38:46And now, you know, this terrorist attack in Baisaran.
38:51There is no, I don't see any evidence.
38:53I have not read any evidence which suggests that troop drawdown is linked directly to an
39:00escalation of violence because in 2012, I can guarantee you, there was no troop drawdown.
39:07Okay.
39:08Because 2012 happened after 2010, when we had a lot of violence in Kashmir.
39:13So, I'm sorry, I humbly kind of, you know, disagree with this line.
39:18Now, on Donald Trump and all this, I think what we are seeing, Gaurav, the bigger issue
39:24is that somehow we want to, you know, within our own country, within our own kind of, you
39:34know, discourse, we want to say everything's okay, but we know that there are problems and
39:40there are serious problems.
39:42And foreign, you know, that is why foreign policy is so closely linked to, to what is,
39:46you know, what happened during Operation Sindhul.
39:48I know, I know that General Dillon would want to come in for his own points.
39:54I don't want to take too much time, but I will just say this.
39:56I know that the government has been saying that nothing happened during Dr. Manmohan Singh's
40:01time, but I can tell you that during Dr. Manmohan Singh's time, the Financial Action
40:07Task Force put Pakistan on the grey list, the UN Security Council, the UN Security Council
40:14passed resolutions against terrorist groups in Pakistan, by name.
40:21And this time, this time, not one country barring Israel came to India's support openly,
40:27not even France, which sold Rafale jets, not the United States, none of the G7s, none of the G20s, nobody.
40:35The external affairs minister responded to that?
40:38No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, one final, one final, five seconds.
40:42Go on, sir.
40:43One final, five seconds.
40:45And we know, we know, everybody knows that Chinese technology and Chinese support, logistical
40:54support was used by Pakistan against India.
40:57And we do not name China at all, knowing that that's a rival nation.
41:02We know also, by the way, that Russia, which is a long time old ally, is only 7% of the
41:10US economy.
41:11It is half the Indian economy.
41:12We cannot rely on Russia like we used to, because it is closer to China now.
41:16Where is our foreign policy?
41:18What is going on in this country?
41:19R.P. Singh, you want to quickly respond to these points?
41:22R.P.
41:23Well, it seems to be that my friend from the Congress party or other Congress member has
41:27started using Chinese hearing aid.
41:29I mean, they don't adhere to what the foreign minister has said in the parliament.
41:33I mean, he has categorically stated which all nations supported India during Operation
41:37Sudhur, whether it was Quad, whether it was BICS, whether it was Central Asia, and whether
41:43it was the Middle East, the OIC, which didn't support Pakistan during all that period.
41:48But the fact is, again, they have to keep repeating the lies again and again to build up
41:53the narrative.
41:54They have all the right.
41:55But they don't believe on the Indian minister of civil affairs.
41:58They believe in Donald Trump.
42:00That's the shocking part.
42:01I mean, how many times it has been told that Donald Trump would have reasons for his own
42:06agenda to speak what he's speaking.
42:09But the fact is that the ceasefire happened because of the DGMO of Pakistan approach, Indian
42:16DGMO, and Indian DGMO, after talking to his bosses, then went for the ceasefire.
42:21I mean, that's very clear on it.
42:23But as Congress says, I mean, we can't help them.
42:26They can keep building up or they can keep trumping on what they want to trump.
42:30But one very small thing.
42:32Sosa, let me not get very personal.
42:35But what do Sosa has to say about the oppression of Sindhu?
42:39No, but what does the son have to do with what the father may believe?
42:45No.
42:46Unless you want to answer that, Salman.
42:48I know that R.P. Singh has in the past also asked about my father.
42:54My father is almost 90 years old.
42:57He has his own views.
42:58And I am here as the Congress spokesperson talking about what our party believes in.
43:03Let me tell you-
43:05I did not interrupt you, R.P. Singh Ji.
43:09Let us have a civil discussion.
43:11I am saying that as far as the Congress Party is concerned, when Operation Sindhu was launched,
43:16when this terrorist attack happened, the Congress Party firmly, through a Congress Working Committee resolution,
43:23stood by the government, stood by the troops, and that is where we are.
43:27It is, by the way, do remember, everybody knows that the politicization of Operation Sindhu started with the BJP.
43:33Everybody knows this.
43:35And I think that was not a very good thing to do because that divided-
43:39The External Affairs Minister also responded.
43:42The External Affairs Minister also responded on the aspect of China and Pakistan coming together after or during Operation Sindhu.
43:52That's a charge leveled by the opposition.
43:55The External Affairs Minister actually went back in history, way back to 1947-48,
44:02what happened in the Shaksgaam Valley, how Shaksgaam Valley was seeded to China by Pakistan,
44:08and how those countries came together then, including their nuclear cooperation from 76,
44:14what happened in 86, and more.
44:16Listen in to the External Affairs Minister.
44:19Some members also raised issues pertaining to China.
44:23So, I would like to spend a few minutes on that.
44:26So, I would first like the House to appreciate,
44:29because today we are getting these lectures saying China is a great danger, China-Pakistan are together,
44:35we are warning you.
44:36So, what does the Congress Party really think about China?
44:40Don't go by what they say.
44:42Let us see what they did.
44:44In 2005, China was designated as a strategic partner during Prime Minister Wen Jiabao's visit to India.
44:54Strategic partner.
44:56And there is a concept, a very famous concept called Chindya, sir.
45:01A belief that China and India have common interests, and the main proponent of Chindya is the party spokesman of the people opposite.
45:12Now, some mention was made about visits, including my visit.
45:21Yes, I went to China.
45:23I went to China to make our position very clear about de-escalation, about trade restrictions, and about terrorism.
45:31I did not go to China for the Olympics.
45:35I did not go to China for secret agreements.
45:38I did not go to China for secret agreements.
45:40I did not go to China for secret agreements.
45:41I did not go to China for secret agreements.
45:46Sir, how should the House know that people were watching the Olympics when China was issuing stapled visas for people from Arunachar Pradesh and Jambalaya?
45:57This is the reality of China.
45:59Salman Swoz, did the External Affairs Minister just turn the knife in very gently, but would hurt?
46:08You know, the Congress was saying that China wasn't even named, not by the Defence Minister,
46:13since the Defence Minister was talking about the defence, you know, the military action that took place vis-à-vis Pakistan.
46:19It's the External Affairs Minister, and he spoke at length, sir.
46:23You know, the External Affairs Minister can speak as much as he wants about China.
46:30The only time they don't speak about China is when they have to be critical of China, when they have to openly say that you cannot,
46:37you cannot have friendly relations with India as long as you're supporting and enabling a nation that is basically, you know, conducting terrorism in India.
46:49My question to the Foreign Minister would be this. If you are, if there is a secret agreement...
46:54Tell me something, sir. Shouldn't this have been, you know, practice what you preach.
46:58You know, the External Affairs Minister went back to 47, 48. Why didn't the Congress government say it then?
47:0363 when Shakskam Valley was ceded. Why didn't the Congress government say it then?
47:0876, 86. He's recounting that entire series about how the Congress dealt with China and how the Narendra Modi government is dealing with China.
47:17And yes, yes. In fact, it's great that they are talking about history, but also they should not run away from the present.
47:24They're running away from the present because if they have dealt with China in a very good way, let us be honest, Goran.
47:31If they've dealt with China in a very good way, then why is it that we are so dependent on Chinese imports?
47:38And by the way, somebody from the BJP was just yesterday extolling the virtues of the UK-India free trade agreement and saying that now our dependence on China would be lower.
47:48That just, it just boggles the mind that they don't even understand what we import from China is not the same thing that we import from the UK.
47:55That is the level of intellectual depth in the BJP. That is why this country is in trouble when it comes to China.
48:01Look, China is the rival nation. Despite all our efforts, we wanted to be friends with China. China wanted to be friends, we thought, with us.
48:10But a lot of water has flown under the bridge since that time.
48:14And where are we now? We have to look at now.
48:17And by the way, the foreign minister talked about today, he talked about in parliament that there is a secret agreement.
48:23Mr. Foreign Minister, I tell you on national television, if there is a secret agreement, take all of your government's institutions and put them to task and say, where is that secret agreement?
48:32Why jail people?
48:33R.P. Singh, where is that secret agreement allegedly between the Congress party and the Chinese Communist Party?
48:39They are spreading conspiracy theories in parliament.
48:42Okay.
48:43R.P. Singh, quickly response, sir.
48:46Gaurav, we all know, I mean, there are pictures, there are videos on record.
48:51Mr. Rahul Gandhi has signed an agreement with the Chinese Communist Party with the blessing of Sonia Gandhi and Xi Jinping.
48:59And this is all known. I mean, there is nothing to hide. I mean, the fact is, they are hiding it.
49:03And we also know the money came into the R.P. Gandhi Foundation. But who went for lunch during Doklam with the Chinese ambassador or Chinese authorities here for understanding the war with China?
49:16Okay.
49:17Or who has placed China through and through?
49:20Secondly, remember that Shamsaran, the NSA member, who categorically stated that 640 kilometers were yielded during UPRG.
49:29And General Arana's statement, who was on record, said that not an inch of land of India has been yielded by India to China.
49:38So, one part of this Opsindoor debate has happened today. The second part takes place tomorrow. And it promises to be extremely scintillating.
49:46And on India First, we will get you all details, all aspects of this conversation on national security.
49:52And it must be debated, threadbare, so that India moves together.
49:56Whether it's the Congress or the BJP or any other political party, it's India against India's adversaries to keep India first.
50:03Salman Soz, R.P. Singh, General Dhillon and Tara Kartha for joining me here on India Today.
50:08As always, many thanks. As I slip into a break, I want to leave you with these images of Operation Mahadev.
50:15And security forces tell us, for the past 15 days, they were relentlessly targeting Musa and the other two terrorists.
50:23Musa, Yasir and Abbas, the three Pakistani terrorists, they were tracking them very closely.
50:30They spotted them, tracked them through the night, just as these terrorists rested.
50:34They tried to get an eye shot and that's where four Para Special Forces was in place.
50:39And apparently it was a sniper headshot to his head.
50:42Remember, these terrorists had put a gun to those innocent tourists' head, singled out Hindus and massacred them.
50:49These terrorists have met them.
50:51Makers and Operation Sindur was sending out that message.
50:53Terrorists are safe nowhere.
50:55Not even the terror sponsor army.
50:57Eleven Pakistani air bases targeted.
51:00Nine terrorist camps targeted.
51:02More than 13 air bases and radar stations targeted, including in Pakistan's Punjab province.
51:07unprecedented.
51:08Never happened before in the history of this country.
51:11The expanse and extent of targeting Pakistan's state-sponsored terror.
51:16As Ramdhari Singh Dinkar said, and he was quoted by Rajnath Singh, the Defence Minister.
51:22SACH POOCHHO TO SHAR ME HI BASTI HA DEEPTI VINAYKI.
51:26SANDHI VACHAN SAMPOOJJE OSIKA, JISMAIN SHAKTI VIJAYKI.
51:31Many thanks to all.
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