- 2 days ago
Blockbusters like the new Superman are still beating box office records, but promoting movies is more complicated than ever. The old celebrity playbook of magazine profiles, TV chat shows and press junkets isn’t enough in an era of audience fragmentation. Publicists now have to strategize which podcasts to make time for, and whether their clients will eat chicken on YouTube with Amelia Dimoldenberg or Sean Evans.
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00:00:00Welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of talking about other people eating chicken,
00:00:08but we actually don't eat chicken on this show. I'm your host, Mia Sato, not David Pierce. I'm
00:00:13three David Pierce's in a Mia Sato trench coat. And I'm going to be taking over the Tuesday show
00:00:18for the next few weeks while David is on parental leave. So it should be really fun. On today's
00:00:23show, we're talking about summer blockbuster seasons. There's movie after movie coming out
00:00:27and celebrities want to get their project in front of you. Or maybe they just want to put
00:00:32themselves in front of you. We're going to be talking to Fran Hopner, a news writer at Vulture,
00:00:37and a friend of mine who wrote a really excellent piece back in June about the crazy hoops that
00:00:43celebrities now have to jump through in order to get attention in an age of fragmented media
00:00:48consumption and at a time when linear television is on the decline. After that, we're going to talk
00:00:53about the flood of cheap knockoff and copycat products that you have no doubt seen online
00:00:58before. In an age of cheap copycat products, brands have found a way to go after dozens or even
00:01:04hundreds of storefronts that they say are infringing on their IP rights. But what happens when someone
00:01:10is wrongly accused of IP infringement? There's a new crop of lawsuits called Schedule A that's
00:01:15something of a legal trend right now. We're talking with law professor Sarah Fackrell about what
00:01:20these lawsuits do and how they could hurt competition online. Later on, we'll have my
00:01:25colleague V Song on to help me answer a question about AI translators. But first, I have to go
00:01:31unbox 20 Labubu blind boxes. This is a Vergecast. We'll be right back.
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00:02:47Support for this show comes from Wondery. Wondery is excited to announce the upcoming season of
00:02:52their podcast, Business Wars, the AOL Time Warner disaster. Business Wars gives you a front row seat
00:02:58to the biggest moments in business and how they shape our world. But what do they mean by that?
00:03:02Look, when your flight perks disappear, or your favorite restaurant chain goes bankrupt,
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00:03:52Welcome back to The Vergecast. My first guest today is Fran Hoffner. She's a newswriter at Vulture,
00:04:03and she did a great piece back in June about all the weird ways celebrities try to get our attention
00:04:08in an age when audiences are fragmented into a million pieces. Since its summer blockbuster
00:04:13season, I thought it would be a great time to talk about how celebrities are navigating this
00:04:17new media circuit, and all the highs and lows and weird moments that this has created.
00:04:23Fran, maybe just like describe what is the new media circuit? Who are the main players? Where does
00:04:28this content live? What does it look like out in the world?
00:04:30The new media circuit lives 98% on the screen of a phone. It is vertical video interviews and video
00:04:41podcasts. Such as this. Such as this. Such as the Vergecast. We're on the new media circuit right now.
00:04:46I have to eat chicken after this. And it's talking with, a lot of the time, a kind of internet
00:04:54celebrity that exists somewhere between civilian and fellow celebrity that actors and musicians
00:05:04and people on press tours now talk to. So we have the chicken shows, Chicken Shop Day.
00:05:09Can I ask you a question?
00:05:10Oh, yes.
00:05:11What's it like doing this all the time?
00:05:13What do you mean all the time? I do other things.
00:05:15Do you ever eat anything other than this?
00:05:17No.
00:05:17Hot Ones.
00:05:18Hey, what's going on, everybody? For First We Feast, I'm Sean Evans, and you're watching
00:05:21Hot Ones. It's the show with hot questions and even hotter wings. And today we're joined
00:05:25by Owen Wilson.
00:05:26There are more reels and TikTok-centric shows like Subway Takes.
00:05:32So what's your take?
00:05:33Fundamentally, everyone is a good person.
00:05:36100% disagree. I can think of countless examples of bad people. I'm not even going to rattle them off.
00:05:41People are not bad. They're infected.
00:05:44And part of the new media circuit is to show that the person promoting the project is a person.
00:05:50We're so normal.
00:05:52Completely.
00:05:52I'm completely normal.
00:05:53It's actually totally, it's frequently at least, project agnostic.
00:05:58They almost don't even ever talk about the project at hand, but instead just talk to whatever host
00:06:04about whatever inanities that they want to talk about.
00:06:08Sit down and open up vibe.
00:06:10Sometimes, or sit down and be silly.
00:06:12Yeah.
00:06:12Anything to more further the name of the person on the show than the project because maybe movies
00:06:19aren't selling as well. Maybe people aren't watching TV how they used to. But if that person
00:06:23can stay in the zeitgeist, maybe there's still another movie to do or another TV show. And it's
00:06:29all about trying to establish or reestablish sort of like who are our A-listers? Who are people who
00:06:37are getting people to engage with things? And this circuit is both trying to cement that, but also
00:06:43kind of spreading everyone out in a way where almost no one is able to stand out.
00:06:49Yeah. That's so, it's interesting because like the level of celebrity feels like it has really
00:06:54been through the ringer. Or like the levels of celebrity, what makes someone an A-lister versus
00:06:58just like very, very saturated or famous or known. So we'll talk about that a little bit later. But
00:07:05how does a new media circuit interact with like what we would think of as the traditional media
00:07:10circuit? You go on daytime television, you do a late night show, maybe you do like a glossy
00:07:14magazine cover or a spread. Like how do these things kind of collide? Do celebrities do both?
00:07:21Do they do mostly the traditional thing with a sprinkle of, you know, a TikTok takes show?
00:07:27Like what, what is the structure?
00:07:29I think they're doing about half and half, but it's been interesting to watch the more
00:07:35traditional forms like late night and daytime TV and even legacy magazines now also have to adhere
00:07:42to the new media circuit. Like you want the late night clips to make it onto TikTok or Instagram reels.
00:07:49Vogue, Wired, Vanity Fair all have their own video series that are also on TikTok and Instagram.
00:07:56Which is the Verge cast.
00:07:57Exactly, yeah.
00:07:58This clip will be going around on TikTok.
00:08:01Thank God. And going viral, I'm sure.
00:08:02And going viral. We're upending the traditional media circuit, actually.
00:08:06That's right.
00:08:07By doing this podcast.
00:08:08So true. I think about, what is it, the Spirit Tunnel on the Jennifer Hudson show?
00:08:13Oh my God, yes.
00:08:14That's like built for scrolling.
00:08:17Yes.
00:08:17And so stars are still having to do these circuits, but now those traditional circuits
00:08:23have to adhere to what goes on the phone.
00:08:28I think almost the only unchanging medium to some degree is SNL, which used to be the main
00:08:33place people would go to make fun of themselves. And now it feels like everything is designed
00:08:37to prove the person in question can make fun of themselves.
00:08:40Is there like a winning formula for this? We'll talk about sort of what you laid out in your
00:08:44piece, and I actually have a case study that I think you nailed, but how are PR teams and
00:08:50publicists thinking about the ingredients to a winning press tour?
00:08:55It really depends on the type of person on the press tour. For younger stars and especially
00:09:02musicians, there's a kind of blanket strategy. Anything they can do, they will do. They'll do
00:09:09the newsletters. They'll do the video podcasts. I think traditional media to them, glossy covers
00:09:15and late night sets, feels like the furthest away. So you'll see those people way more on your
00:09:22phone than you will in those traditional mediums. But I think by the time they usually hit
00:09:25traditional mediums, it feels like it's too late. I feel like by the time I saw Chapel
00:09:29Rhone on Colbert, I was like, this is already a famous person. She maybe doesn't need to
00:09:35be doing this. The more established celebrities will do a mix of both. But there usually winds
00:09:43up being at least one silly thing. Usually it's chicken related, hot ones.
00:09:48It's so weird that it's all chicken.
00:09:49I know. And it's like, you kind of only get to do your chicken thing once, I would like to
00:09:54say. So it's like, you do it and then you got to do something else next time.
00:09:58You get to eat chicken once in your life.
00:10:00Yeah.
00:10:00No more.
00:10:01Yeah. You have to decide when you're going to play your chicken card.
00:10:04Yeah. Like some of the people who are hosting these shows, writing these newsletters are
00:10:09celebrities in and of...
00:10:12Right? Like they are celebrities.
00:10:13That's sort of what's become interesting is like, I don't think we can keep feigning that
00:10:18someone like Amelia de Moldenburg, who does Chicken Shop Date, or Brittany Broski, who does
00:10:23Royal Court and a ton of like YouTube stuff. These aren't like regular people in terms of
00:10:29like how you and I are.
00:10:30Yeah.
00:10:31Sort of, I don't know.
00:10:32They're also not media, really.
00:10:34And they're not media, but they're doing interviews. And so there's this weird in-between
00:10:40where maybe it's supposed to be kind of jarring to see like Timothee Chalamet and Brittany Broski
00:10:46in conversation, but that actually makes perfect sense.
00:10:50These are just two famous people.
00:10:51Yeah, absolutely. It's all become almost kind of the interview magazine thing of celebrities
00:10:56interviewing celebrities.
00:10:58Yeah. Yeah. Just like for the video scrolly era.
00:11:01Yeah.
00:11:02Yeah. In your piece, you laid out like a couple different types of celebrities, such as the
00:11:09fresh-faced aspiring A-lister, the redemption seeker, the, like I said, the kind of buzzy
00:11:15politician. But there's, so talk me through, who is the redemption seeker? We're going to
00:11:21talk about a current redemption seeker on this circuit right now. But what, describe the
00:11:25redemption seeker.
00:11:26The redemption seeker is not necessarily a canceled person. Frequently is not a canceled
00:11:32person, but someone who has a perhaps less than savory public relationship. Maybe they've
00:11:41gone through a divorce. Maybe there was a cheating scandal. Maybe there was some kind of legal scandal
00:11:46that they were in. There's been drama on the sets of one of their films or TV shows. Their press tour
00:11:54has to become a kind of gentle mea culpa. They can't just run through that thing and pretend like
00:12:01none of that ever happened. There has to be some kind of tacit acknowledgement. Or I think people
00:12:07just hound them. Maybe they don't see it, but in comments, they'll be like, what about this? Talk
00:12:11about this. And so there's a kind of gentleness that lets this person be like, hey, I'm human,
00:12:18but also maybe be able to laugh about what's going on with them a little bit.
00:12:22Yeah. And in your piece, you laid out a game plan for the redemption seeker. So there's Podcast
00:12:30Pond. I love the names also. There's Podcast Pond. Then you do Guys Being Dudes Peak. Chicken
00:12:36Coop after you are Guys Being Dudes. Then Cover Story Creek. Then Daytime TV. And there's someone who I
00:12:46found was pretty much matching this beat for beat, bar for bar. And that's Brad Pitt.
00:12:52Yeah.
00:12:52He is promoting his F1 movie. And he has hit a lot of these things. He did the podcast interviews,
00:12:59a sort of sit down serious video podcast interviews. He was reading thirst tweets on a BuzzFeed show. I
00:13:08think we have a clip of that that we can roll. This is like Guys Being Dudes Peak. Let's see what it
00:13:11looks like.
00:13:12I would kiss the f*** out of Javier Bardem.
00:13:14Well, what's the f*** go?
00:13:16I would kiss the f*** out. I say this when you're not around.
00:13:19Comparing how Brad and how Javier Bardem approached the F1 press tour was very interesting.
00:13:27Talk more about that. Javier Bardem did sort of this circuit where he's sometimes very silly,
00:13:34but he also went on The View to talk about Gaza and spent a lot of time on red carpets invoking
00:13:40Gaza and made it very political in a way we have not seen stars of that caliber do quite
00:13:48yet. I think it's maybe a little different for Javier Bardem because he's ostensibly like
00:13:53a European star that he doesn't have to maybe totally play by the same rules or he doesn't
00:13:58care to play by the same rules. But comparing that to Brad Pitt playing frisbee golf with
00:14:04Jimmy Fallon in tie-dye pajamas creates quite a strange contradiction of men of a certain
00:14:11age, especially.
00:14:12Right. Yeah. It kind of suggests to me, too, that Brad Pitt is the redemption seeker and
00:14:17Javier Bardem is maybe more of the legend type category. Also, on Guys Being Dudes Peak,
00:14:26I was kind of struck by how exact your prediction or your prescription of this was because he
00:14:35literally did like a bro-y video with Lad Bible. You know what I mean? It's just like,
00:14:39this is guys being dudes.
00:14:41It's Adidas, not Adidas.
00:14:43It's Adidas.
00:14:44I know. It's what I just said.
00:14:45It's biscuit, not cookie.
00:14:47No, biscuits and gravy, man.
00:14:49Mate, it's chips.
00:14:50You ever had biscuits and gravy?
00:14:51You are so American, man.
00:14:53Yeah.
00:14:54No, s***.
00:14:56He has done sort of the glossy magazine thing. He did a GQ story that I kind of skimmed and
00:15:04then command F'd for Angelina Jolie and kids. And there was like one mention and it's completely
00:15:10nonspecific.
00:15:12Yeah. It's where he said his divorce being finalized isn't actually that major.
00:15:16Yeah. Which is crazy.
00:15:17It's like, okay.
00:15:18It's the main thing.
00:15:19I believe you.
00:15:20Yeah. Why do you think that the new media circuit, I mean, I guess in this case, this
00:15:24was a traditional media thing, but across all these different stops that he made, Angelina
00:15:30Jolie does not come up, really. And it's interesting because like, we call it media, but mostly it's
00:15:36just like hanging out with friends and your friends are not going to ask you on camera about
00:15:40allegations that you like abused your wife. So it feels very much like it is just an extension
00:15:48of his own personal marketing. There's like no, he's not really bumping up against any
00:15:54walls or like uncomfortable conversations.
00:15:57Absolutely. I think his team is probably keeping him very, very protected from any question he
00:16:03doesn't want to answer. And by doing something like reading thirst tweets, it looks like he's
00:16:08being a kind of vulnerable talking to Dax Shepard about addiction. That's a kind of vulnerable,
00:16:13but it's not actually addressing the elephant in the room. And I think with Pitt specifically
00:16:21and with celebrities who I think have some kind of legal thing attached to whatever they're
00:16:27seeking redemption from, it's very possible that they like actually cannot talk about what's
00:16:32going on in X, Y, Z terms as part of whatever settlement that they've agreed on. But with Pitt,
00:16:40it's that then everything he does is so silly. And he did this Fallon skit, which is so funny in
00:16:45lieu of like even talking to Fallon.
00:16:47Yeah. So tell us about the skit.
00:16:49They were playing frisbee golf in the park. Fallon is like, oh, I had like an awesome weekend
00:16:55playing frisbee golf with my buddy. And like we did some crazy shots and I'll show you the video.
00:17:00And it's supposed to be, even then it's supposed to be like surprising that like Brad Pitt would even
00:17:04like talk to Jimmy Fallon. It's like, again, these are two extremely famous people and they're both
00:17:09in these like tie dye jammies and they're doing these really edited and manipulated crazy frisbee
00:17:17golf shots. And what it's showing or proving is completely incomprehensible to me, especially
00:17:37because they're only in the shots where they're throwing and catching the frisbee respectively.
00:17:41So it's also not even really with or about them. But it just becomes like another silly little
00:17:48thing to prove that like serious Brad Pitt is not above having fun once in a while.
00:17:54I think that also kind of goes back to your earlier point where often these appearances on
00:17:59these sort of the sort of like third rail shows or podcasts or whatever are not about the thing
00:18:06that they're actually working on. It is more just like them as a person. We need to saturate your feeds
00:18:12right with Brad Pitt's face. I wanted to say also like looking through all of these stops on the new
00:18:21media press tour. It is so, so, so striking how much it's mediated by like third party platforms like
00:18:28TikTok and YouTube. Um, and I'm curious, like how much of the quote unquote algorithm comes in here,
00:18:37right? Like, is it, is it enough that celebrities just show up on chicken shop date and show up on
00:18:43subway takes or show up on recess therapy? Or is there like some level of you throw all these things
00:18:49out there and see what hits? Um, are there any, I guess, show appearances that you've seen that did not
00:18:56work whether, whether it was because the algorithm didn't like it or because people didn't like it
00:19:00or because it just was a weird fit. Yeah, absolutely. There are shows that don't work
00:19:04all the time. I think, I mean, they didn't need something like this, but I think Hugh Jackman and
00:19:10Ryan Reynolds doing chicken shop date, very unfunny, very strange, no rapport. Does your wife know
00:19:18that you're on a date right now? She does know that. She does? Yes. Okay, good. Um, and the only reason
00:19:22I'm allowed here is that, uh, you know, she's your number one fan. Oh my God. That is right.
00:19:30Brooke from Gossip Girl loves you. Serena. Serena. Blair. Blair. Serena. I mean, a movie like Deadpool
00:19:40does not need that. Um, but I also think about, say, Cate Blanchett doing her press run for Black
00:19:47Bag. She's an amazing actor. Black Bag is a great movie. She really hit the new media circuit this
00:19:54time around. She went on Las Culturistas. She did subway takes and she spent a lot of time on those
00:20:01shows, either kind of not finding the right tone of how to be on those shows or just reiterating old
00:20:09bits that she's done. I think people talk about when she gripes about like leaf blowers in every
00:20:14single interview. And it's like, I don't know if this is like as charming or as relatable to
00:20:19complain about her landscapers as she thinks it is. I don't understand leaf blowers and I don't
00:20:24understand golf. No, see, this is the thing. Not only a leaf blow is ugly and they're noise polluted,
00:20:30then your neighbors hate you. If I see a leaf blower, I will, I go from naught to a thousand.
00:20:36I just, I cannot. It's all that is wrong with the human race. They drive me nuts.
00:20:42It's not really her fault. And I don't think it's like Las Culturistas fault either, but she's not
00:20:48media trained to be silly on camera and podcast for a whole hour. She's not an especially silly
00:20:55person. And what she does is come off as kind of try hard and disingenuine and it just doesn't
00:21:03really hit. There's nothing that stands out from it. And I think that happens all the time. I think
00:21:09a lot of these publicists and teams are just trying to blanket their person as far and as
00:21:16much as their client is willing to go. And then you just have to hope something hits.
00:21:22Yeah. At that point, who is benefiting from like Kate Blanchett being on Subway Takes or whatever?
00:21:27Is it Subway Takes having like a massive win or is it her kind of getting in front of maybe a younger,
00:21:34more online audience? Like who is winning here?
00:21:36I don't think anyone is winning in that situation because I think younger audiences are not caring
00:21:41about her on that show. And maybe Subway Takes is benefiting slightly, but she's using recycled
00:21:48material on there. And that's sort of what became frustrating for many watching late night is you
00:21:53would just hear the same stories over and over again. And I think part of what the new media cycle
00:21:59purports to do is that by like making people work in these weird structures or games or these really
00:22:05long-winded conversations, that something notable will come out of this person pretending to have
00:22:13their guard down. But if there isn't that moment, it just, it kind of just doesn't happen.
00:22:20Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about another case study, Charlie XCX, who I think had sort of a massive,
00:22:27her stock went up massively in the last like year and a half. Tell me if I'm wrong. I would put her
00:22:32in your structure as maybe the fresh-faced aspiring A-lister-ish.
00:22:35Yeah. She's been around.
00:22:37She's definitely been around, but I think that category also appeals to someone who's trying to
00:22:41jump up a level. And I think for a long time, she was a kind of niche celebrity. I would put
00:22:48someone like Carly Rae Jepsen in that category too, which is like, she has fans. She's been around
00:22:52forever, but she is no sort of Taylor, Beyonce, stadium type of artist.
00:22:58Yeah. So what was Charlie XCX's cycle promoting her album Brat like? What is the strategy there?
00:23:05She said yes to everything. I'm hard-pressed to think of something she didn't agree to do. And
00:23:11I think part of what was so interesting about the Brat remix's album, which I think is great,
00:23:17is she kind of tacitly acknowledges like, I'm so tired. I've been like-
00:23:22I'm milking this thing.
00:23:23I'm milking this thing. I'm exhausted. I've sort of lost what this thing is actually about,
00:23:28which felt even more honest than some of the confessional nature of the original Brat. But
00:23:34she agreed to do everything. And sometimes that really worked for her. She had a great New York
00:23:41magazine cover.
00:23:42Yes, she did.
00:23:43And, you know, sometimes she's like on Howard Stern, which is sort of like, are the Stern
00:23:49listeners listening to Charlie XCX?
00:23:51The Howard Stern interview is crazy. I'm actually going to play a clip from my computer because
00:23:57I was like cackling watching this. It's like a generational clash.
00:24:02Very excited to speak with her. Charlie's out on her sweat tour. Wow. Great to see you.
00:24:08Do you like Weezer? Are you hip to Weezer?
00:24:11Me? Me? Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel?
00:24:15I've worked with Rivers once before.
00:24:19No kidding. When was that?
00:24:21Yeah. It was back in-
00:24:23Was that on Sucker?
00:24:25It was, Howard. Yes.
00:24:28It was on Sucker.
00:24:30It was on Sucker, Howard.
00:24:31And this goes on for an hour and 10 minutes. And it's like, compared to her on Los Culturistas,
00:24:38it's just, I'll play a clip from that, too, because I was like, this is actually crazy how
00:24:43different it is.
00:24:44Are you on With a Housewife? Do you know?
00:24:46No. I'm so sad about that.
00:24:48You're just on solo?
00:24:49No, it's another man.
00:24:51Okay.
00:24:53I couldn't tell you who it is.
00:24:54Yeah, exactly.
00:24:55And I love that we will find out later who it is when the episode airs, and we'll be like, oh, that's who.
00:24:59And I'll be like, it's, I love you.
00:25:01I love you.
00:25:02It's such a fact.
00:25:02Even the way she is sitting is different.
00:25:04Completely.
00:25:05And she's wild.
00:25:07With all love and respect, she seems exhausted in both of those, but in one, she's tired
00:25:11and having fun.
00:25:12Yes.
00:25:12How much of the new media circuit and appearances live strictly online, never to be talked about
00:25:18in person?
00:25:20Almost all of them.
00:25:21Almost all of them.
00:25:22It's a really online format.
00:25:25I think it's rare that even some of these get extended cuts beyond their requisite minute
00:25:31and a half if they're really little things also.
00:25:34Yeah.
00:25:34That's part of the new media circuit that feels really unique is that, like you said, a lot
00:25:40of these things are recorded for the cut, right?
00:25:43For the TikTok cut.
00:25:46And people will have, quote unquote, seen it, but they actually saw like 45 seconds of that
00:25:51interview.
00:25:52Nobody's watching.
00:25:53Well, maybe people are, but I think most people are simply scrolling to it and then scrolling
00:25:59away and not going to YouTube to watch the full thing or whatever.
00:26:02Yeah.
00:26:02And I think what's interesting about a lot of these forms, there are certainly some that
00:26:06are the exception to the rule.
00:26:08Well, a lot of these you can really only do once.
00:26:10Yeah.
00:26:10And most people are only doing them once.
00:26:12Yeah.
00:26:12There are a couple formats like Letterboxd Four Favorites where they'll hit people multiple
00:26:18times and maybe there'll be like a different metric.
00:26:21I think that's a really great like recyclable format.
00:26:23And I think some games that people have to do.
00:26:28There's a great I mean, I guess it's more of a radio show, but there's a great BBC radio
00:26:32game that I've started to think is maybe the most genius of all of these new media things
00:26:36that I didn't get to include in my piece where the guest has to call three different
00:26:41famous people in their phone and they bet them and the host have to guess whether the
00:26:46person when they pick up is sitting or standing.
00:26:48Oh, my God.
00:26:48That's really funny.
00:26:49It's so simple.
00:26:51Yo, yo.
00:26:52Are you standing up or sitting down?
00:26:55I'm sitting down right now.
00:26:56Yes.
00:26:57I said he was going to be sitting down.
00:26:59Yeah.
00:26:59I'm on the BBC radio breakfast show and we are playing this game called stand up, sit
00:27:04down.
00:27:04Whoever they call is always so annoyed.
00:27:06They're like, what do you what?
00:27:08And then they just get the answer and then they're like, OK, see ya.
00:27:11Well, it's really quick.
00:27:13And it's like this shouldn't work as well as it does.
00:27:15But it is actually quite endearing.
00:27:18Yeah.
00:27:18It's also just I can't help but think it is made for short form video.
00:27:24Like that is a structure.
00:27:25The structure is or like I guess the mission is come up with a show that is like 30 seconds
00:27:29or less and just do it, recycle it over and over and over.
00:27:35Yeah.
00:27:35Something we were talking about with like red carpet coverage at Vulture specifically is
00:27:40like if someone is coming down that line and sees the Vulture microphone, do they know what
00:27:46is going to come out of like my mouth?
00:27:48Because if they don't know that, maybe they don't want to stop by when they see that letterbox
00:27:53microphone.
00:27:54They know what's going to happen.
00:27:55Yeah, there it feels like a sort of an extension of a issue or reality, I guess, that I think
00:28:04a lot about, which is like the line between news and media and journalism and then everything
00:28:10else.
00:28:11And increasingly, it's just one bucket.
00:28:14Like there was when I was doing research for this show, I learned that Kiki Palmer had
00:28:21decided not to run an interview she did with Jonathan Majors in her like public statement
00:28:26about why they decided not to run it.
00:28:28She was like, I'm a journalist and people should be able to trust that like I'm coming
00:28:33from a neutral place.
00:28:34I give people a platform to like say what they do and I don't judge.
00:28:36And I was like, that's crazy.
00:28:39You're not a journalist.
00:28:41I love Kiki Palmer, but you're not a journalist.
00:28:43No, not at all.
00:28:43And it's interesting to me that like the thing about the Vulture mic, you don't have a quick
00:28:50are these people sitting or standing thing.
00:28:53Like you might ask like a real thing.
00:28:54We're working on it, but yeah.
00:28:55Yeah, but you might ask a real thing, right?
00:28:56Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:58And sometimes like when I've done red carpets, you know, publicists will often come down
00:29:03the line first to be like, so-and-so's coming.
00:29:05You have two questions, blah, blah, blah.
00:29:07And sometimes they'll specify, we're not doing silly questions.
00:29:11Don't do silly questions or don't do anything adjacent to the movie.
00:29:16Sometimes we have like New York based questions, New York magazine.
00:29:19And they're like, don't do it, movie only.
00:29:22And one time it was also told like, this person is funny.
00:29:27My client is funny, but they'll, you don't need to prompt them.
00:29:32Let them be funny on their own terms and don't set them up with a silly question.
00:29:35They don't want to do that.
00:29:37And it was like, okay, I won't do that.
00:29:39And lo and behold, like a serious question got a funny answer from this person.
00:29:42But I think the teams with these people keep them really protected from anything that they
00:29:49don't want to be doing.
00:29:50Does the existence of the new media circuit change how you work as a journalist?
00:29:55I think it puts a lot of pressure to come up with questions that have relatively short
00:30:04answers that are not yes or no, but are also not too long-winded or heady.
00:30:09I think people are not really caring about the answers to those questions, which is a shame
00:30:14because it's questions like that that make me want to be a journalist and probe and question
00:30:20like why things are the way they are.
00:30:23Red carpets are really stressful because there's so little time.
00:30:26Everyone is like jockeying over each other that it's not always the environment for something
00:30:31serious.
00:30:31But I think that's also why like Javier Bardem talking about Gaza on the red carpet is like
00:30:37he only really has like 90 seconds with some of these people and he's using that to do
00:30:41that, which I think is great.
00:30:43There's also the, I feel like maybe something we touched on a little but didn't say directly
00:30:49is that like when people go on these shows, a lot of what is discussed is very controlled.
00:30:54There are, you, you show up to the, you know, the person comes on set and I'm assuming a lot
00:30:59of these people are told, do not ask about this thing, right?
00:31:01Like these are not organic in the way that maybe we would hope or maybe, you know, it's
00:31:09just, it's more scripted almost.
00:31:13Yeah, completely.
00:31:14I think many of these things are set in stone, prearranged.
00:31:19I mean, Kareem, who does subway takes, recently told the story of how Kamala Harris was supposed
00:31:24to be on.
00:31:25They did a, they had a pre-approved take that she was going to do and then at the last
00:31:30minute they switched it up and it all went sideways and it never ran.
00:31:34And so it's also that these properties and these teams are not equipped to improvise.
00:31:43And that often is bad for everyone.
00:31:46Yeah.
00:31:47They also, it feels like these teams of, you know, the people who run these shows or do
00:31:50these shows, often they're small, young, scrappy, and they're not equipped to push back either
00:31:56for the most part.
00:31:57Like this, this is a structure, you know, we talk a lot about like access journalism and
00:32:01the way that that can skew coverage, but this is like the final boss of that where like
00:32:07your guests, the reason you make the show, the thing you produce depends on you having
00:32:12access to these people.
00:32:14Yeah.
00:32:14And if you go off script or if you break some sort of like agreement or if you insist on
00:32:19maybe holding their feet to the fire in a way they don't like, like that ends that.
00:32:24Yeah.
00:32:24Right?
00:32:24Yeah.
00:32:25Our version now of holding someone's feet to the fire is making them feel uncomfortable
00:32:29in a very uncontrolled way, whether that's eating very spicy chicken or a kind of stilted
00:32:34awkwardness that comes with some of these like more modern new media figures like Harry
00:32:38Daniels, that's holding feet to fire, but it's not in actual sort of content of what
00:32:43we learn from these people.
00:32:46Does all of this go away if like a platform implodes?
00:32:50Like what is the future of Chicken Shop Date or Hot Ones if like YouTube changes in some
00:32:58significant way?
00:32:59I think we're seeing it a little bit with Chicken Shop Date where we're seeing Amelia
00:33:04de Moldenburg get brought on as like an official red carpet spokesperson for the Oscars and other
00:33:09awards shows.
00:33:11It's been interesting that they've been kind of pivoting her, like pushing her into like
00:33:15an entertainment tonight space or like a talk show.
00:33:19Right.
00:33:20Kind of space.
00:33:20And I think that's a great fit for her, honestly.
00:33:24I really like what she does and I think that show has a very clear ethos and I think she
00:33:29has a really combative ethos that like, obviously it's not David Letterman, but it calls to mind
00:33:34sort of the combative nature of going on Letterman.
00:33:37Yeah, it's fun to watch.
00:33:38Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:39I think YouTube is only getting bigger and bigger.
00:33:42I don't know at this point what could happen to YouTube that would change the metrics of
00:33:45some of these shows.
00:33:46You and I were at the YouTube upfronts and they were saying people are watching YouTube
00:33:51on their TVs.
00:33:52It's not just a phone thing.
00:33:54So I think we're going to get longer and longer YouTube things.
00:33:58I mean, I semi-recently watched a five-hour YouTube video over many days.
00:34:03Like that has become a very regular way to consume media.
00:34:10So to close this, let's say you are a guest host of a popular tech podcast who is filling
00:34:15in for your co-worker who is out on parental leave.
00:34:20What would you suggest?
00:34:21I would, maybe it's like a fresh-faced wannabe A-lister.
00:34:25What shows should they go on, hypothetically?
00:34:27Well, I think you need to go on Call Her Daddy.
00:34:30Yeah.
00:34:31I think you need to be playing up maybe sort of a woman in STEM angle to be like, yeah,
00:34:38you know about tech and you know about computers, but like, hey, like, you also love clothes.
00:34:43I'm relatable.
00:34:44Yeah, completely.
00:34:46And maybe you want to do like a perfectly imperfect list, a newsletter to pull in like a younger
00:34:52audience, but also show that you're sort of out there perusing, have kind of taste.
00:34:57I think for fresh-faced people, a lot of what they need to do is be a kind of cultural tastemaker
00:35:04or prove to some degree that they're both kind of approachable, but also a real head
00:35:09about their field.
00:35:10So maybe you could go in the Criterion Closet too.
00:35:11I was going to say, should I go in the closet?
00:35:13Why not?
00:35:14Yeah.
00:35:14I would love to go into the Criterion Closet.
00:35:16I wanted to ask you, but I kind of forgot about that too, like the way that brands or
00:35:21existing companies like manufacture a moment like that.
00:35:26Like Criterion definitely got its shit together and figured out a way to make the closet a thing.
00:35:32Letterboxd too, Rith with the-
00:35:33They did a great job of it.
00:35:35And I think what they've done is kind of create a non-gamified interview form that lets the
00:35:45person in question be as smart as they are or want to be.
00:35:49And there's no wrong answers.
00:35:51Yeah.
00:35:51They're doing something where they can say absolutely anything.
00:35:53It'll look good.
00:35:54It'll look cool.
00:35:57There's that great clip of Malcolm Washington and John David Washington in the Criterion
00:36:02Closet.
00:36:03And Malcolm Washington is like talking about, I think like Romare or some French director
00:36:08and like really going long.
00:36:09And then John David Washington just goes like, Jackie Chan boxhead.
00:36:12Know what I'm saying?
00:36:13And it's like, yeah, that's, those are both right.
00:36:15Those are two correct ways to be doing that kind of thing.
00:36:20And I think those are what I'm most impressed by when I watch because it's both letting the
00:36:25subject have a ton of control, but I do think a lot of the time they say really interesting
00:36:30things.
00:36:31Yeah.
00:36:31And there's also, I think in those cases, the audience receives it well, no matter what
00:36:38you do, really.
00:36:38It's like a structure that because there are no wrong answers, viewers will be like, so
00:36:44true queen, like so true queen.
00:36:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:46Like you took Pride and Prejudice starring Keira Knightley or they'll be like, oh, eight
00:36:50and a half.
00:36:51Like, you know, what's up?
00:36:53Oh, they're serious.
00:36:54They're serious.
00:36:54Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:55Yeah.
00:36:55Is there any one of these shows you would want to be on where you're like, ooh, that
00:36:58would be fun for me?
00:37:00I think about this, I was thinking about this, prepping for this because I find, I don't
00:37:08think I could do a podcast.
00:37:09It's just simply way too long.
00:37:11Like, with you, this is fun to talk, but like, I don't want to be in, like, cuddled
00:37:16up in a, you know, snuggled up in a chair with Alex Cooper.
00:37:22I feel like Timothee Chalamet did the thing where he just like went and bought records
00:37:25with Nardwar.
00:37:26Yeah.
00:37:27Right?
00:37:27Yeah.
00:37:27I would do that.
00:37:28Yeah.
00:37:28That would be really fun.
00:37:29I would do the Criterion Closet.
00:37:32I'm not eating chicken on camera, simply not doing that.
00:37:35Um, so I think, I like these things where there's like an activity that you go and do.
00:37:40What about you?
00:37:41What would you be on?
00:37:42I want to go on Maren so bad.
00:37:43And now it's ending.
00:37:44Oh.
00:37:45It's kind of the worst news for me.
00:37:46But I really love him.
00:37:47And I think he was kind of a pioneer in the space, a la Howard Stern.
00:37:52But I think Maren kind of pioneered what like the Dax Shepard guys being dudes thing is
00:37:59now, which is like confessional and sensitive while also being kind of masculine.
00:38:04And I just think unlike many people doing what he does now, he's a really great interviewer.
00:38:10Yeah.
00:38:11Yeah, I know.
00:38:11A lot of people are bad at interviewing.
00:38:13He will push back and he will make people uncomfortable.
00:38:15And the best episodes of that show are when both of them are so uncomfortable.
00:38:19Yeah, I guess I would also like to be on Dua Lipa's book club podcast or whatever.
00:38:24Oh, yeah.
00:38:24She actually seems like, obviously, again, these are controlled and she's definitely
00:38:27getting a list of things not to ask about.
00:38:29But I would talk books with Dua Lipa, I think.
00:38:33And you heard it here first.
00:38:34We're available for bookings if anyone wants us.
00:38:36Who wants me?
00:38:38Who want me?
00:38:40Thank you, Fran.
00:38:41This is so fun.
00:38:42We have to take a break now.
00:38:43But when we're back, we're going to talk with Sarah Fackrell about a questionable legal tactic
00:38:48that is all the rage in Chicago for some reason.
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00:40:24All right, we're back.
00:40:28So, what do a woman selling cat-patterned t-shirts on Redbubble,
00:40:33a fan of the country music star Luke Combs,
00:40:36and a random Amazon seller called the Accents all have in common,
00:40:40they've all been accused of allegedly infringing on someone else's trademark or design patent.
00:40:45But these lawsuits aren't just your run-of-the-mill intellectual property law cases.
00:40:52They're just a handful of examples of a unique type of lawsuit
00:40:55that have become something of a trend in the last few years.
00:40:58The woman who is selling t-shirts online was sued by the owner of the Grumpy Cat trademark.
00:41:04I don't know if you remember this.
00:41:05It was the kind of sad-looking cat that spawned a million memes and a movie.
00:41:10She earned one single dollar from selling a t-shirt,
00:41:14and later found out that she was being ordered to pay $100,000.
00:41:18In the Luke Combs case that went viral a few years ago,
00:41:21a Florida-based fan who was selling homemade drink tumblers on Amazon with Combs likeness on them
00:41:26was ordered to pay $250,000, and she didn't even know she was being sued.
00:41:32In the case of the Amazon seller Accents,
00:41:35the China-based company had $50,000 in earnings frozen in their Amazon seller account,
00:41:40over products that a judge later ruled likely didn't infringe on a design patent at all.
00:41:46So how exactly does this legal tactic work, and who benefits, and who's at a disadvantage?
00:41:51Welcome to the weird and ruthless world of Schedule A cases.
00:41:54And to help me explain what's going on here,
00:41:57I have Sarah Fackrell, a professor at Chicago-Kent College of Law at Illinois Tech.
00:42:02Let's get into it.
00:42:02My name is Sarah Fackrell.
00:42:04I'm a professor of law at Chicago-Kent College of Law at Illinois Tech.
00:42:07Okay, Sarah, so why are these cases called Schedule A lawsuits?
00:42:12Where does this name come from?
00:42:14Well, that's a name that just sort of bubbled up from the way that the main players started naming their cases.
00:42:21Stepping back a little bit, this is a relatively new form of mass defendant IP litigation.
00:42:28And the original cases started, it was something like Big Brand versus Doe's 1 through 100 or something, right?
00:42:35Like a John Doe lawsuit you might have heard of.
00:42:37And then eventually they started saying, well, it's Big Brand versus the defendants that are listed on Schedule A,
00:42:45which is just a separate document that was filed separately apart from the complaint, at least in some courts.
00:42:52And so what they were doing was instead of saying, this is Apple versus Samsung, and that's right there on the face of the complaint,
00:42:58they were saying, here's Apple versus a bunch of people, and we're not going to tell you who their names are, at least not publicly, at least not at first.
00:43:06And so a lot of people, myself included, started calling these Schedule A cases because it was just an easy way to refer to them.
00:43:12And this model, even though in practice, the case names can differ, that separate document can have a different name.
00:43:20For example, some of them call it Exhibit A or, you know, whatever.
00:43:24It can have a different name.
00:43:26But the major players started captioning these cases Schedule A, and so that's the name that seems to have stuck,
00:43:33at least with practitioners and judges here in Chicago.
00:43:35And on the Schedule A form, it's not just like a couple storefronts or defendants named, right?
00:43:42It's like dozens, sometimes even hundreds.
00:43:44What have you seen there?
00:43:45Yeah, so I will say I have not been able to exhaustively, empirically study all of these cases yet.
00:43:53It's a fire hose.
00:43:56It's literally impossible to keep track of everything.
00:43:59But what I've seen from my imprecise, imperfect efforts to pay attention to what's going on is I've seen anywhere from a couple dozen on the low end,
00:44:08maybe even fewer, sometimes even maybe three or four, but usually the dozens is the low end, to over a thousand.
00:44:18Yeah, over a thousand.
00:44:19It's wild.
00:44:20And they don't sue the defendants using their legal names.
00:44:24This is another big difference between a Schedule A case and a normal case.
00:44:28So in a normal case, if you want to sue someone, you have to figure out what their actual legal name is.
00:44:32And if it's an individual, what's their actual name, which can be hard if you're suing like a celebrity or something.
00:44:37And if it's a company, right, is it Starbucks Corp or Starbucks Inc or whatever?
00:44:42You're supposed to figure that out and sue them under their proper name.
00:44:45In these cases, though, the plaintiffs say, well, we don't know what the real names of these sellers are.
00:44:50So please let us use their online storefront name or some other similar signifier as an alias.
00:44:57So they're suing people under aliases.
00:45:00That's where these names come from that you'll see when the defendants are able to show up.
00:45:04It's usually their storefront name.
00:45:07And then eventually we may or may not actually learn their real name.
00:45:11What does putting all of these storefronts onto one copyright or design patent suit do?
00:45:17Like, what is the benefit that plaintiffs get by throwing them all onto one form, whether it's called Schedule A or Exhibit A or whatever it is?
00:45:25The reason why you want to sue 1,000 people together instead of filing 1,000 different lawsuits is because it saves you money.
00:45:32Classic. Classic.
00:45:34It saves you money and perhaps time and effort, right?
00:45:37But money is the big one.
00:45:39You're supposed to pay a fee of about $400 for a federal lawsuit.
00:45:43So if I file one lawsuit against 100 defendants, that's a lot cheaper than filing 100 defendants at $400 a pop, right?
00:45:52So they want to save money is the big thing.
00:45:55And I think that's why bundling these cases is so important to this business model.
00:45:59They could literally sue everyone separately, but not if they want to make money.
00:46:03I want to back up a second and just be like, I think we should say that people can agree that the internet does have a lot of cheap junk.
00:46:11There are products for sale that infringe on someone else's rights.
00:46:15We've seen, you know, designers or businesses complain about this constantly with valid reasons to be upset.
00:46:23And, you know, the knockoffs or the dupes or the infringing products are everywhere.
00:46:27But Schedule A suits work differently than maybe a traditional trademark case might.
00:46:34So what are the different moving parts here that actually make these suits so effective for plaintiffs?
00:46:42Absolutely.
00:46:42And this larger question of how do we police our IP rights on the internet has lasted as long as there's been an internet, right?
00:46:49This is not a new question.
00:46:50This is just a new evolution, as Professor Eric Goldman has written about, who studied sort of the evolution on the trademark side.
00:46:58We've also seen on the copyright sides and people who used to file mass copyright lawsuits are now filing Schedule A cases.
00:47:04So you're right that this is an old problem, but this is a new solution.
00:47:08And it's actually pretty clever and sophisticated when it's done right.
00:47:12So the heart and soul of a Schedule A case is the asset freeze.
00:47:17The lawyers who perfected this litigation model figured out a way to convince judges that they should not only allow them to sue hundreds of people altogether,
00:47:27not only let them sue them without knowing their real legal names,
00:47:31not only let them sue them in the form of their choice, which is often but not always Chicago,
00:47:35but also to let them freeze the accounts of these defendants before they even know they've been sued.
00:47:42In legal language, we call this an ex parte TRO or a temporary restraining order.
00:47:47And they come in and say, hey, judge, look, these defendants, we have reason to believe that they are all bad,
00:47:52nefarious Chinese counterfeiters or at least foreign counterfeiters.
00:47:56But they often call them Chinese, which is a separate issue in these cases, right?
00:48:00They say, we have reason to believe that these are all nefarious foreign counterfeiters.
00:48:04And judge, unless you freeze their Amazon seller account right now, unless you freeze their eBay account right now,
00:48:09unless you freeze their PayPal account right now,
00:48:12they are going to abscond with their ill-gotten gains and just disappear into, you know, the far reaches of the Internet.
00:48:20And for a variety of reasons, they've been able to convince judges that this is correct,
00:48:24even when the defendants don't actually fit those profiles.
00:48:27And so this key that they go in, they find a bunch of sellers on, you know, name your platform, eBay, Etsy, whatever you have.
00:48:36And they say, judge, we think they infringe our rights.
00:48:40Here's a little proof.
00:48:41And please freeze all their accounts so we can figure this out.
00:48:44And most of the time that's working, right?
00:48:46Most of the time the judges are like, sure.
00:48:48Yeah, we're still, I'm actually working with a co-author trying to get some good empirical data on this.
00:48:53But just anecdotally, it seems like a rubber stamp.
00:48:58A lot, not all judges.
00:49:00Some judges become skeptical.
00:49:02But a lot of judges for quite a while now seem to have accepted these cookie-cutter boilerplate complaints
00:49:09and said, oh, here's another one.
00:49:10And we're going to freeze that and freeze that.
00:49:12And you can imagine this is a really, really, really powerful remedy if you're in a lawsuit, right?
00:49:17You have their money.
00:49:22And they often, usually, freeze the whole account, not just whatever you sold.
00:49:28So let's say that I sold one accused product for $4.99, but I happen to have $350,000 in my account.
00:49:35That's what gets frozen.
00:49:37And it's sort of just luck based on the disbursement schedule.
00:49:40And so you could imagine if you were a defendant and you've got your money tied up, right, varying degrees.
00:49:47Maybe it's, you know, nothing because you just got a disbursement.
00:49:50Maybe it's $1,000.
00:49:51Maybe it's $100,000.
00:49:55That's not normally how we start litigation, right?
00:49:58Normally, you find out that someone sued you and we have these little steps we take.
00:50:01But these defendants often, I'm told, find out they have been sued when they notice their account's frozen.
00:50:08And then the platform's like, hey, go talk to plaintiff's lawyers.
00:50:13And at this point, they might not have even seen the complaint or the papers or have had any notice at all.
00:50:18And that's extraordinary.
00:50:19Yeah.
00:50:20I wanted to pick up on one of the cases that I mentioned earlier, this Amazon seller Accents,
00:50:25which I should clarify for listeners that it's spelled not like Accents.
00:50:31It's spelled A-C-C, capital E-N-C-Y-C.
00:50:35And I had to go to, like, the attorney that represents Accents to be like, can you please tell me how you pronounce this name?
00:50:41But it's called Accents.
00:50:42It is a China-based Amazon seller.
00:50:45They sell, like, really random things that you might need around the house, you know, hooks or, like, sticky, like, suction cup things for, you know, hanging something or whatever.
00:50:56And what you were describing, this TRO, this temporary restraining order, happened exactly to them.
00:51:02They were selling one hook that was like, you put it on in your closet and you can hang a handbag from the hook.
00:51:08It's like a double-sided hook.
00:51:10They were selling those hooks and they got an email saying, hey, there's an issue with this listing.
00:51:16We've taken it down.
00:51:17And also your seller account is frozen.
00:51:20The money ended up growing to, like, $50,000 because they were still making sales on their other products, which were not affected.
00:51:27They just couldn't get their money out.
00:51:29And like you said, they had no idea that they were being named in a Schedule A suit until it was kind of too late for them, right?
00:51:35Already their business is being thrown in disarray.
00:51:38It's around the holidays.
00:51:39They can't get their earnings.
00:51:41So I wanted to ask just, like, is this something that should be happening?
00:51:47Is this normal?
00:51:48I guess for, like you said, for Schedule A, it kind of has become extraordinary.
00:51:53But a temporary restraining order like this, like you said, is only supposed to happen for very, very specific reasons and very rarely applied.
00:52:02Yeah, in theory, a temporary restraining order is supposed to maintain the status quo so we can figure out what's going on, right?
00:52:11So to take, like, a real property example, if a company was going to demolish a building where I'd painted a mural and I thought I had a right to have them not demolish my mural, if I wait until they demolished the whole building, it's too late.
00:52:24So I might go to the court and ask for a temporary restraining order and be like, hey, don't let them bulldoze the building until we can figure out the art law issue.
00:52:31That's sort of a classic example of a TRO.
00:52:34This is different because, again, normally defendants are allowed to use their money while litigation is going on.
00:52:40And sometimes these TROs are written incredibly broadly.
00:52:43Like, sometimes they're just like, okay, you can't use your Amazon account.
00:52:46But I've seen some recently that are more like, you can't spend any money in any bank account.
00:52:51How do you live?
00:52:52That's the thing, right?
00:52:53How do you buy food?
00:52:53How do you hire a lawyer, more importantly, right?
00:52:56So what happened with accents is not unusual on its facts, but what's unusual about it is they were able to get a lawyer.
00:53:02That doesn't always happen for a variety of reasons.
00:53:05Yeah, that's something I wanted to talk about, too, is just, you know, it feels like there's a real power imbalance in a lot of these cases because there are sometimes they're big companies, but sometimes they're not that big who are actually going after all of these sellers.
00:53:17But by and large, from what I understand, the people being named as defendants are, like, individuals selling something they're making or foreign companies who maybe, like, don't speak the language, don't know any lawyers in Chicago that they can hire to defend them.
00:53:33And Accent's attorney told me that, you know, most of the time you go to court and there can be hundreds of defendants named and there's not a single person, right, in the courtroom there to represent these people.
00:53:46It's just the plaintiffs kind of pushing things along.
00:53:48Yeah, we don't actually have a lot of good information about who the defendants are, actually, because they're named using aliases and because of all the secrecy.
00:53:57A lot of these records remain under seal for quite a long time, if not forever.
00:54:01And so we can't really know systematically who's being sued.
00:54:05But like you said, as far as we can tell, it's a variety of companies.
00:54:08Sometimes it's just an individual.
00:54:09Sometimes it's a little company.
00:54:11Sometimes they're in America.
00:54:12Sometimes they're not.
00:54:13We don't really know as outsiders, right?
00:54:16I mean, maybe some of the plaintiff's lawyers have some insights that we don't.
00:54:21So the asymmetry in these cases is really, really striking.
00:54:24And even when there's a hearing, it's often pretty quick.
00:54:27Like, I've seen judges say, okay, plaintiffs, you can have your TRO.
00:54:32We're going to have a preliminary injunction hearing, which is what you're supposed to do if you want a longer initial freeze.
00:54:40And sometimes they only have a matter of days.
00:54:43And so imagine that you are who the plaintiffs always say these defendants are, right?
00:54:47You are someone in another country who is selling products online.
00:54:51And you find out maybe in the middle of the night that there's going to be a hearing in two days in some city you've never even heard of in the middle of North America, right?
00:55:00Like, how do you even start to defend yourself?
00:55:04I mean, I wouldn't know what I would do if I was in the other shoes, right?
00:55:06If someone sued me in China, I don't need – and I'm a lawyer.
00:55:09I'm a law professor.
00:55:10I have connections.
00:55:11I don't know what you do if you are just a normal person.
00:55:15And so these cases move so quickly because they're motivated by this narrative of, you know, bad, nasty, nefarious people need to be, you know, clamped down on or it'll just be whack-a-mole on the internet forever.
00:55:27But what happens when that's not the case?
00:55:29Parties can't always fight every bad claim, even the ones that lack merit.
00:55:34Sometimes it's just not worth it, right?
00:55:37Hey, that hook wasn't making us money anyway.
00:55:39Let's just quit selling it, right?
00:55:41Or that t-shirt, no one bought it anyway.
00:55:43We don't care.
00:55:44We'll just cancel.
00:55:44We'll quit.
00:55:45And so there's a certain threshold of how much even has to be frozen before rationally, economically, if you're in a position where you can make those sorts of judgments, it even makes sense to call a lawyer.
00:55:55Something that struck me in all three of the cases, the Grumpy Cat, Luke Combs, and then Accent's case, is that the actual earnings that these defendants, at least who are responding to the suit, are reporting are so small.
00:56:09The Grumpy Cat t-shirt seller made literally $1.
00:56:13She sold one shirt.
00:56:14And it didn't have, like, the Grumpy Cat, the photo of the Grumpy Cat on it.
00:56:20It was just, like, a cat that looked kind of sad, an illustration of a cat that looked kind of sad.
00:56:24The Luke Combs fan, which that story also kind of blew up because he, I think, tried to make it right afterwards.
00:56:29But the Luke Combs fan sold, like, $380 of homemade merch.
00:56:34And then Accent's sold less than $500 of these handbag hooks.
00:56:39It's not like their main seller.
00:56:41They, I don't think, care if they sell these handbag hooks.
00:56:44But the plaintiffs are seeking sort of enormous default judgments.
00:56:49So, you know, $100,000, $250,000, $900,000, I think, was the Accent's case for, you know, $500 of hooks that a judge later found likely weren't infringing in the first place.
00:57:03So, like, how do plaintiffs justify this?
00:57:06Yes, that's a great question.
00:57:08And it's actually another really big concern with those freezes that I talked about before.
00:57:15So, what the plaintiffs do is they say, hey, we're entitled to this freeze because we could get this kind of remedy that qualifies, at least theoretically, under their theory of Supreme Court precedent, which hasn't really been strongly tested yet.
00:57:28Certainly not in court of appeals that I know.
00:57:29But we are eligible for potentially this type of damages, so you should let us freeze their assets, is the argument.
00:57:36But then they turn around at the end and ask for a totally different kind of damages, ones that would not justify that initial asset freeze.
00:57:47And a number of judges, well, at least a couple of judges, have started to really bristle at that, right?
00:57:58You're coming in and saying you want this, but then you're asking me for that.
00:58:01And so there's this sort of mismatch and perhaps a feeling that there is perhaps some kind of bait and switch going on or something like that, in addition to just the extraordinarily large numbers.
00:58:14Because these big numbers are statutory damages.
00:58:17But the problem is, is there's a really big mismatch between actual harm being done and the damages being awarded, which is bad on a couple of levels, right?
00:58:28First, it just seems really unfair.
00:58:31And that's a problem beyond just for the parties involved, because I think it makes our courts look bad, right?
00:58:38Our judiciary and our legal system depends, at least in part, on being trusted and respected.
00:58:44And when you go around saying that someone's got to pay half a million dollars because they sold one $5 widget, that isn't a great look for the court system, let alone for just larger, more pure ideas of justice.
00:58:58And so I think that's why cases like the Luke Combs case, why the Curtis case, the grumpy cat, catch a lot of people's attention, because it just seems, and is, fundamentally unfair.
00:59:08I guess we could talk about the status of the grumpy cat case, maybe?
00:59:14Yes.
00:59:15The grumpy cat case, actually, I just checked.
00:59:18So one thing when we're talking grumpy cat and Schedule A is you have to clarify which grumpy cat Schedule A case.
00:59:24They're very litigious, right, the owners?
00:59:27I did a docket search, and I found over 60 cases, Schedule A, in the Northern District, which is a lot.
00:59:36And, you know, in that one, a couple of the defendants had fought back, including pro se, right, without a lawyer.
00:59:45And the judge actually did end up granting those three defendants' motions to dismiss.
00:59:53So really great news for those three defendants.
00:59:56Yeah.
00:59:57Not so great news for all of the other defendants who were faced with identical allegations that the judge said, that's not good enough to be sued in my court.
01:00:06But because they didn't fight back, I assume there's going to be default judgments entered against them if there aren't already.
01:00:14That's just kind of extraordinary to me.
01:00:15I don't think that once the judge has decided that's insufficient as a matter of law, I don't think he has to accept it.
01:00:21But, and that's added on top of the fact that, like you alluded to before, the merits in that case were not particularly the strongest.
01:00:31So in that exact one, the Curtis one that you mentioned, you know, they have this word mark.
01:00:38They've registered the word grumpy cat or the phrase grumpy cat for use and connection of various products.
01:00:43And if you look at their filings, they say that exactly what she did wrong was call it a grumpy cat pattern in the description of the product.
01:00:52So I've got this fabric or shirt that looks like a cat who is grumpy.
01:00:57That's not the kind of thing that trademark laws will stop you from doing, right?
01:01:01You're allowed to call a grumpy cat grumpy cat as long as you're not doing it in a way that confuses, makes people think that that was made sponsored or approved by the grumpy cat company, which I'm always surprised was a real thing.
01:01:13Yeah. Also, I should say that the real grumpy cat, his name, his, I'm not sure if it was a he or she, Tartar Sauce, died several years ago.
01:01:22Like R.I.P. Tartar Sauce, but grumpy cat is, you know, for all intents and purposes, not really a thing anymore.
01:01:29Yeah. So you had this meme that became monetized by a company.
01:01:33And now, like you said, the cat is passed on and the trademark remains.
01:01:38And so, I mean, lots of questions there about, you know, what happened.
01:01:43But again, only the three defendants who showed up got relief.
01:01:47And that's unfortunate, right?
01:01:50Most people probably aren't familiar with Schedule A cases.
01:01:53And certainly a lot of the people who are actually being sued aren't.
01:01:56But there's one group of people that is very familiar with Schedule A cases, people practicing in the Northern District of Illinois.
01:02:02I have a couple numbers from Eric Goldman at the Santa Clara University School of Law.
01:02:09So he counted 7,700 cases, 40% of which were filed after January 1, 2024, naming 1.5 million defendants.
01:02:21And by his count, 88% were filed in the Northern District of Illinois.
01:02:25And it's kind of become an epicenter of these kinds of cases.
01:02:29What is going on in the Northern District of Illinois?
01:02:31What's happening in Chicago?
01:02:32Oh, I mean, that's the billion-dollar question, right?
01:02:34And I don't think anyone really has one single answer.
01:02:40I think we're seeing a lot of cases here because the judges let them happen here.
01:02:48So what do I mean by that?
01:02:49The Schedule A model depends on convincing judges to exercise their discretion at various key parts of a case in very specific ways.
01:03:00You have to be able to convince the judges to exercise their discretion to, for example, let you freeze the assets.
01:03:07You have to convince them to use their discretion to let you serve the defendants by email, which is another key part of this.
01:03:15You have to convince them to use their discretion to join a whole bunch of defendants together, to sue a whole bunch of people together.
01:03:20And at various other points, it's all about convincing judges to use their discretion.
01:03:26And so as a very practical matter, they're filing cases here because the cases work here.
01:03:31And why exactly do the cases work here is the harder question.
01:03:34Yeah. If one piece of that breaks, does Schedule A kind of fall apart or can they try to figure out ways around that?
01:03:44Well, that's a great question.
01:03:46And we're starting to see some natural experiments to some degree on that.
01:03:51So it's hard, right?
01:03:55So the North Carolina District is actually a pretty big federal bench.
01:03:58There's a lot of judges compared to certain districts.
01:04:00And so even if you've got two or three or five who are skeptical, there's still like 20 who are totally okay with this, right?
01:04:09The question is then how do you respond, right?
01:04:12And we've seen defendants respond in different ways.
01:04:17Sometimes we've seen them dismiss their cases and refile and hope to get a new judge in the same district.
01:04:23And we know this because other judges have noticed and called them out for that.
01:04:28Judge Tharp has done this quite a bit.
01:04:30Here in the Northern District, we have seen cases where they go and they file in a completely different district, right?
01:04:38Fine. You don't like my joined or judge.
01:04:40I'm going to go file in Pittsburgh.
01:04:42This is interesting because the idea of forum shopping to a certain degree is totally tolerated and okay under the law, right?
01:04:52If I have a case that under the relevant rules could equally well be filed in Chicago and Pittsburgh, normally I as the plaintiff get to choose.
01:05:01There's not anything inherently wrong with that.
01:05:04Where it starts to get messy is like this case we recently saw where plaintiffs file their case in Chicago, get a judge they don't like, dismiss the case and refile against the same defendants and maybe other people somewhere else.
01:05:18I've seen a fair number in Atlanta recently.
01:05:21Nike, for some reason, likes to file in Atlanta.
01:05:25As far as I can tell, we've seen a number in Pittsburgh.
01:05:29I just saw one in Kansas.
01:05:31Huh.
01:05:32That was the first one I saw.
01:05:34It's about salt and pepper shakers.
01:05:36Yeah, the judge just granted the TRO.
01:05:37Yeah, one thing that really drew me to Schedule A cases and really fascinated me was that it kind of flips the script a little bit.
01:05:47And we think of infringement and counterfeiting, obviously, as problems that exist online.
01:05:52We understand that rights holders want to protect what they've created.
01:05:56And even alleged infringers, alleged counterfeiters, they do deserve due process, right?
01:06:02They should have their day in court.
01:06:04They should have the opportunity to respond to allegations because sometimes they didn't really infringe at all.
01:06:09So, what is the danger of sort of allowing Schedule A cases to proceed at the current clip, to proceed sort of how they're working right now?
01:06:19There are a lot of reasons to be concerned.
01:06:22As a really practical matter, right, we've talked about how individual defendants can be wrongfully caught up in these dragnets.
01:06:31Now, I'm not totally sure how plaintiffs, different plaintiffs' firms, come up with these cases or who's vetting their claims.
01:06:41And we can't know for sure what percentage of these infringement claims have merit and which ones don't.
01:06:48But we do know for sure that an alarming number of them completely lack merit.
01:06:55And that's not something I say lightly.
01:06:57I think as someone who is a, you know, a due process absolutist, a proceduralist, I would be concerned even if these were all perfect infringement, right?
01:07:04They actually had merits and you're actually an infringer.
01:07:06I would still have concerns about this litigation model just from a due process procedure perspective.
01:07:10But when you add in the fact that a lot of these defendants are very, very clearly not infringers, let alone counterfeiters.
01:07:17And again, I can't quantify that as a percentage because of just the volume plus the secrecy plus all these other problems we've talked about.
01:07:24But I've seen enough to be very, very, very disturbed.
01:07:28And again, this is a problem not only for the individual defendants, but also for the integrity of the system, right?
01:07:33What does this say about design patents in particular, right?
01:07:37You know, that's my thing.
01:07:39In design patents, it's maybe particularly concerning because you can get a design patent really easily and really quickly for not a lot of money in the scheme of things.
01:07:50And so we've seen allegations and I can't say whether or not they're all borne out or whether or not this is that we've seen allegations of people saying that this plaintiff went and got a design patent on something that already existed on Amazon that they didn't create.
01:08:05And then they sued all of us in a scheduling case.
01:08:08And if that's true, that's incredibly disturbing, right?
01:08:14And the part that is additionally disturbing to me is that it's plausible.
01:08:19Design patent examiners at the PTO are really hardworking people.
01:08:23Everyone I've met is really dedicated and smart and doing the best they can.
01:08:26But they only get a couple of hours.
01:08:29You can't search all of Amazon in a couple of hours, let alone do all the other work you need to do on your file.
01:08:34And so we have a system where, in theory, even if you have a design patent, if the applicants are not being scrupulous, there is room for additional exploitation, which, again, puts the entire system in a disrepute, not to mention being enormously unfair to all the people who are being targeting.
01:08:52And then there's the public, right?
01:08:54Let's say that I wanted to buy a purse hook, but the best one out there was taken off the market because they got threatened by a Schedule A plaintiff, even though they didn't infringe.
01:09:04There's a harm to competition in consumers because while online infringement is a problem, online choice is a good, right?
01:09:13And so I think there's a lot of people who get hurt here in a very practical way, in addition to all these sort of more maybe abstract-sounding concerns about due process or procedure or, you know, law.
01:09:30Is there any indication that judges are beginning to question this tactic?
01:09:33I know there was an order coming down from a judge in the Northern District of Illinois.
01:09:37Walk me through what he said.
01:09:38So Judge Ness, so it looks like starting in about March, Judge Ness started issuing these orders in all his Schedule A cases where he said,
01:09:51look, I've become concerned about this litigation model and especially these certain parts where I'm being asked to use my discretion in these certain ways.
01:10:00So I'm going to hold all these cases in abeyance for now while I figure it out, which is completely my—I've never heard of a judge doing anything like this.
01:10:07Like, this is wild.
01:10:08Just saying we've got to shut this all down so we can figure out what's going on, right? Judicial version.
01:10:13And this is pretty extraordinary.
01:10:15And that's added to a rising number of cases where we've seen other judges on issues like Joinder say,
01:10:24hey, look, I know that other judges have accepted this, but I don't hear why.
01:10:29There was a case filed by Toyota where Judge Daniel issued his decision.
01:10:32It's become very persuasive.
01:10:34I see that cited by other judges.
01:10:36Even judges will say, hey, look, I used to do this, but this has changed my mind.
01:10:40We've seen judges with those asset freezes.
01:10:45There's a case Judge Seeger issued involving the character Zorro.
01:10:50I love these sites.
01:10:51They're all the most amazing.
01:10:52So in the Zorro case, he kind of identified that sort of turnabout game that plaintiffs were playing with the asset freezes where they say,
01:11:00I'm asking for this, but then I'm going to get that at the end of the case.
01:11:02And he said, I'm not phrasing it.
01:11:03I'm not doing it.
01:11:04I don't believe you anymore.
01:11:05Which, again, is pretty extraordinary for a federal judge to just be like, I don't believe you anymore.
01:11:11And we have seen at least one judge start citing that Zorro case more frequently.
01:11:16I believe that the plaintiff's lawyers have been fighting back.
01:11:18I'm not sure exactly how successful they've been.
01:11:20So it does seem like they're, again, and this is just in the Northern District, that there has been some pushback from newer judges from judges who've been seeing a lot of these and maybe are rethinking it.
01:11:32But that's not all of them.
01:11:33Again, this is a big bench.
01:11:34If I allocate here, you have a perfectly good chance of finding a friendly judge.
01:11:40Yeah.
01:11:40Or they could go to Kansas or whatever, where people are going next.
01:11:43We've got to take one more break, and then I'll have V on to help me answer a question about AI translators.
01:11:49See you on the other side.
01:11:50Hey, y'all.
01:11:56We're back.
01:11:57Let's get to the hotline.
01:11:59As always, the number is 866-VERGE11, and the email is vergecast at theverge.com.
01:12:04We love all your questions, and we try to answer at least one on the show every week, so keep them coming.
01:12:09And today, I have Victoria Song to help me answer a fun one about AI translator apps.
01:12:15Hey, y'all.
01:12:16Long-time listener, first-time caller.
01:12:17My name's TJ.
01:12:18I'm an American, currently living between Mexico and Colombia because of my relationship.
01:12:24Shout-out to love and immigration law.
01:12:26So here's my question slash rant slash cry for help.
01:12:30I am a huge user and fan of AI, both in my personal life and professionally, but I do not understand or still don't have a good, real-time, natural-feeling translation tool.
01:12:41My partner's mom and I spend a lot of time together, and she doesn't speak English.
01:12:44So I've been relying on ChatGPT voice mode, which is genuinely amazing, but Google Translate and Apple Translate still feel like robot interns, and advanced voice mode is pretty limited for, like, everyday use.
01:12:59So I want something that can do live, back-and-forth translation reliably, like, subtitle a real conversation, let us actually talk.
01:13:07I've been searching everywhere, and I'm almost ready to drop $500 on MetaRavens just for the translation feature.
01:13:12But, like, do I trust Lama to handle emotional nuance with this Colombian mom?
01:13:17I do not.
01:13:19So my question is, is there anything out there I'm missing?
01:13:22Are there tools worth trying?
01:13:23Or are we still in the almost-but-not-quite territory for live AI translation?
01:13:30I would love your take, honestly.
01:13:31Thanks, all.
01:13:32Love your pod.
01:13:33Okay, I was thinking about this, V, and I think we both speak Japanese, so maybe we should just do it in Japanese and have everyone AI translate.
01:13:41Oh, my God.
01:13:41I'm just kidding.
01:13:43Yabai yo, yabai yo,それ.
01:13:44Nihongo de yatchau ka?
01:13:46Yatchau ka?
01:13:50Anyway, so this is a good, I think this is a good group, good duo to tackle this.
01:13:57I personally think, I mean, I just have a hard time with any translator things because language is so dynamic that it changes day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month.
01:14:07And, like, I have used translator tools for my entire life for various reasons, and, like, it has never gotten to the point where it can keep up with the way that people speak casually.
01:14:19Literally, yeah.
01:14:20Yeah.
01:14:21Slang, like, just forget about it.
01:14:22Yeah, and I have used a lot of translation tech just because, like, I, like, my Japanese, pretty decent.
01:14:30My Korean, not great.
01:14:32Even though those two languages are quite similar, like, almost grammatically, not almost, they are grammatically identical, and a lot of the vocabulary is the same.
01:14:41It's just, I'm not great at speaking it, understanding it.
01:14:45I'm Korean Chewbacca in my family.
01:14:47Just because I speak English, they speak Korean, and we understand each other just fine.
01:14:51So, but to that point, there are times where I have wanted these kinds of tools, and so I've tested a bunch of them with my family.
01:14:59And I regret to tell you, listener, TJ, they're not, you are coming up against what all of them struggle with.
01:15:09Like, they just can't handle slang.
01:15:13Yeah.
01:15:14And if Colombian mothers are anything like Korean mothers and auntie figures, they do be talking at the speed of light.
01:15:21Yeah, and, like, the precision is so important when you're talking across languages and across cultures.
01:15:27And, like, one thing that I've always found very difficult is, so, like, I grew up in Japan, and I haven't been, like, living full-time in Japan in a really long time.
01:15:41And so a lot of, like, my vocabulary in Japanese is almost, like, stuck in time with the slang or the way that people spoke at the time I last lived there.
01:15:50And that is something that I think no translator app, AI or not, could ever help me with.
01:15:56Like, you need to be actively speaking and engaging with people in this moment to really pick up on the nuance like TJ was asking about.
01:16:05Yeah, there's, like, so many examples of that.
01:16:07Like, my family immigrated from Korea to the U.S. a long-ass time, like, over 50 years ago at this point.
01:16:13And one thing that I learned growing up was the word for bathroom.
01:16:17We called it 변서, which is apparently, like, ancient colonial times, still living under Japan levels for the word bathroom.
01:16:26And I was just like, oh, I didn't know that.
01:16:28And that explains why when I went back to visit family and I was like, oh, 변서 어디였어요?
01:16:34They were like, do you mean 화장실?
01:16:36Which is the actual, like, the actual word for it.
01:16:40So, you know, is a translator going to be able to handle skibbity toilet?
01:16:44That's my example that I use all the time.
01:16:47That's a litmus test.
01:16:48That's a litmus test because those are the things.
01:16:50And I remember when I was in high school and taking Japanese, my Japanese teacher was losing her mind because of the slang that the Japanese kids were using, which was makkuru.
01:16:59Because she's like, that means to turn.
01:17:02And apparently, no, it meant teens were saying, we're going to McDonald's.
01:17:07Yeah, that's so interesting.
01:17:09It's like these things where, ugh.
01:17:13It's really hard.
01:17:14But I do think, TJ, that you maybe are in the perfect situation in real life to get over some of these shortcomings with, like, the tech option.
01:17:25Like, in my opinion, when you are trying to speak with, you know, your partner's family, like, that's a great time to ask about the nuance.
01:17:34I assume that you probably have some language capabilities.
01:17:40But, you know, maybe you use that opportunity to be like, you said this word and I'm not quite following.
01:17:46Like, can you help me understand what it means?
01:17:48I actually had a great time doing this with some friends from Japan who were visiting the last couple years.
01:17:53Like, they would teach me all of the new things that the kids were saying, like, even younger than we are.
01:17:58And they're like, I don't really know where it comes from, but this is what the kids are saying.
01:18:02Like, that is never, ever, ever going to, the tech is never going to keep up with that.
01:18:07But if you have people around you who can explain that context and explain the meaning, like, that's golden.
01:18:13That's a great opportunity.
01:18:14Also, if you are living between Mexico and Colombia, that's, like, a great chance to be immersed in that.
01:18:20And you can use the tech to kind of help you learn certain things while you're getting up to speed.
01:18:26I think at the level where the tech is now, it's very friendly for people who are tourists.
01:18:32It's not really useful in family situations.
01:18:34It's not necessarily useful in any situation other than, I don't know how to read a menu.
01:18:39But you kind of can't just scan it to read a menu and then not learn what the words are.
01:18:45Because, you know, I've used the translation feature for Spanish, actually, on the Meta Ray-Bans.
01:18:52And it couldn't handle slang.
01:18:54One, it couldn't handle slang.
01:18:56And then if we were, I was speaking with someone who was fluent in Spanish and English.
01:19:00And if we were switching back because it was just easier for them to explain something in English, I had John Cena's voice.
01:19:06Because you can make the Meta AI sound like John Cena.
01:19:09And why not?
01:19:10Life is short.
01:19:10That seems distracting.
01:19:11Have fun.
01:19:12You do hear them in your ear at the same time.
01:19:14And you're having that problem.
01:19:16So I think it's okay in a pinch if you're going around town and you just really need help for, I don't know how much this costs.
01:19:25Can you tell me how much this costs?
01:19:26Like, those things the translation can't handle.
01:19:28Well, every day, like, bonding and getting to know someone, these things can't really do it.
01:19:34And if you use it as a crutch, I think you're arguably missing out on connecting with your partner's mother.
01:19:40So I think a lot of people who are speaking with a non-native speaker actually love explaining words.
01:19:48Another thing I was just thinking about here is, like, there is a lot in Japan and Japanese that is very reference heavy.
01:19:54Like, if you watch Japanese television, like, sort of like, you know, kind of like late night shows or whatever, there are so many references that, like, I don't even, if I had a subtitle machine, I don't even think it would be helpful.
01:20:08Yeah, it's, like, I almost, you know, in college, I had a two-second dream that I was going to be a translator.
01:20:14Same. I think that's just, like, yeah, canonical, weird idea that we have at some point.
01:20:21For whatever reason, I was like, yeah, I'm going to be a translator.
01:20:24And then I was like, oh, my God, I don't, because when you have the subtitles, you actually have a character limit as to what you're going to say.
01:20:29So you were going to lose out on all the context and the nuance there.
01:20:33And, you know, Japanese and Korean are both, I think, high-context languages.
01:20:37So to your point, everything's referential and it's about what's not being said.
01:20:41And there's no AI that's going to be able to, like, you know, if someone goes, um, zannen desu ne, they're saying no.
01:20:50Like, there's some, like, zannen nagara, you know what I mean?
01:20:52It's like, it's not what it means.
01:20:54It's not, it's not what that means.
01:20:56Or it's just, like, I think my favorite video about how weird Japanese can be is, like, all the things that daijoubu can mean.
01:21:03So true.
01:21:04It's just, like, oh, daijoubu.
01:21:06Daijoubu.
01:21:06Daijoubu.
01:21:07Yeah.
01:21:07Right.
01:21:08Daijoubu.
01:21:08Right.
01:21:09It's, like, it all means different things.
01:21:11Yeah.
01:21:11So, like, Spanish is not the same and each language has its nuances.
01:21:16But, um, yeah, if you were going to try something, there is something called time kettle there.
01:21:23I, I keep, I know all of this and I keep going, well, maybe this one will be different.
01:21:27So, I got a pair of time kettle earbuds.
01:21:30I'll try it.
01:21:31We'll see.
01:21:33But, um, don't rob yourself the chance of fumbling through all the funny things that will happen.
01:21:41Yeah.
01:21:41Do you have a mistranslation with your Colombian mom?
01:21:44Once you make some of these mistakes, you'll never forget it.
01:21:47You know what I mean?
01:21:47You'll never forget what's right.
01:21:49Oh, God.
01:21:49There's so many things in language learning.
01:21:51Like, I will never forget tsutsumotase in Japanese.
01:21:54Yeah.
01:21:54Because it was, like, an example that my very enthusiastic Japanese teacher was like,
01:22:00How would you read this kanji?
01:22:01To this advanced group of Japanese readers and, um, in college.
01:22:05And we were like, bijinkyoku?
01:22:08Beautiful person office?
01:22:09No, it's, it's a badger game.
01:22:12And she's like, it's tsutsumotase.
01:22:14It's not read in any way that makes sense.
01:22:16It's so weird.
01:22:17And it's a badger game.
01:22:18It's such a weird language.
01:22:19It's, yeah.
01:22:20Don't rob yourself of finding all the weird crap.
01:22:23Yeah.
01:22:24Yeah.
01:22:24Agree.
01:22:25Yeah.
01:22:25Thanks so much for your question, TJ.
01:22:27And thanks, Bea, for helping me answer this one.
01:22:30Okay, that's it for the Vergecast.
01:22:31Thanks to everyone on the show today.
01:22:33And thank you for listening.
01:22:35There is a whole lot more stuff from this conversation at theverge.com.
01:22:38We'll put some links in the show notes.
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01:23:06This show is produced by Eric Gomez, Brandon Kiefer, Travis Larchuk, and Andrew Marino.
01:23:11The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
01:23:15Jake will be back on Friday to discuss all the news from the week.
01:23:18Goodbye.
01:23:19See you next time.
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