- yesterday
Today on The Cameron Journal Podcast we are speaking with Danish geopolitical expert, journalist and screenwriter Michael Sousson. He is the author of Backstabbing for Beginners (which was a major motion picture) about his time at the UN. He now consults around the world and we are very happy to sit down and talk shop with him.
Keep up with him at: https://www.michaelsoussan.com/
Keep up with him at: https://www.michaelsoussan.com/
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00:00Thank you very much.
00:00:30Today on the Cameron Journal podcast, we are joined by Michael Susson. He is a critically acclaimed and produced author. And he has a background in international affairs. He used to work at the UN. He was on that whole oil for food thing. If you don't remember it, don't worry, we'll get back into it. That was kind of the first big scandal I was ever conscious of when I was in high school. So this is an exciting moment. If you had talked to me in grad school, this would have been like the most amazing thing ever.
00:00:55Like I could text five friends right now and they would just die that I'm talking to this man. But he has a history of CNN. He was on K Street in Washington. That's the lobbying street.
00:01:04And he's now a storyteller, an independent journalist. And this is, I mean, the level of guests you've been getting around here is really tremendous. And Michael is the creme de la creme, the cherry on top of the cake in the window.
00:01:17And we're going to talk about the film about his experience at the UN in the oil for food program. We're going to talk about, which is Ben Kingsley, no less. And then we're going to talk about modern media and influence. And then we're going to get into his next book about influence. So welcome, Michael, to the Cameron Journal podcast.
00:01:37Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here.
00:01:38Thank you. Yes, we've been trying to arrange this for several weeks. And Lily decided to do this this morning, which was fun. But that's sometimes what happens with high profile guests. So we love it.
00:01:52So I want to start kind of right in and talk about your film, well, the film rather, Backstabbing for Beginners. Why don't you run us through the film, your story, a little bit about the absolute disaster that was the UN oil for food program, and kind of just get the reader to know you a little bit. And we'll start from there.
00:02:14Right. So, well, I guess, I guess the event that that projected me into the limelight, to begin with, was not when I was working at the UN, but sometime after I had left, the UN oil for food program was the largest humanitarian program in UN history.
00:02:39It was set up to help the Iraqi people survive the sanctions, which we at the UN had put on them. So there was a sort of a central core irony in the situation to begin with.
00:02:57Well, the oil was sanctioned. They couldn't sell it on the open market. So Europe traded oil it needed for food Iraq needed. That was kind of the barter arrangement.
00:03:05Yeah, it became known as the oil for food program, but it involved a lot more than food, obviously, because a country doesn't run on food alone.
00:03:18So we visited, you know, the first the first UN guy to come and visit Iraq after the first Iraq war, the Persian Gulf War, as we used to call it, basically reported back that the country had been bombed back to the pre-industrial age.
00:03:39Which means that their electrical grid was destroyed and that in the first Gulf War, America fought in a logic that resembles more the kind of fighting that we saw in World War Two.
00:04:00So they completely destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and left Saddam Hussein in power.
00:04:13So at the end of the war, it finished in a very clean way, in a sense.
00:04:20At the time, everybody, you know, there was a big parade on Fifth Avenue, but the fact is, we had left a country under the control of Saddam Hussein, who was fundamentally a person that the U.S. would never trust again.
00:04:40Again, and then ended up framing, as we as we now know, in 2003, in what became the second war in which regime change was then the goal.
00:04:58But unfortunately, I remember it very well, because I had already left the UN at that point, and I was going to come back because, you know, I lived in the East Village in New York.
00:05:15At the time, I had gone to film school. I was going to completely change my career, in fact.
00:05:21And I received a call, and I was like, having to respond to questions such as, what should be the UN's role in the post-war Iraq, and et cetera.
00:05:34And I quickly understood that nobody actually had a plan for the aftermath.
00:05:41So, whereas the U.S. Army was very good at taking control of the country, they weren't very good at managing the country after.
00:05:56They never really thought of the fact that, you know, if you break it, you own it.
00:06:05Well, there were a lot of mistakes made, letting the military go, all these trained fighters just out into the public.
00:06:14I mean, I think they burnt through the first, you know, occupational governor in, like, eight months because they didn't know what was going on.
00:06:23I think they burnt through three by the time it was all said and done.
00:06:26Yeah, that's right.
00:06:26But there was, clearly the Pentagon did not think about the, okay, well, what happens the day after we've completely invaded this place?
00:06:34That, yeah.
00:06:35Lots of time spent on the invasion, nothing on the rebuild.
00:06:39Yeah, their plan was very short.
00:06:41It was to put Ahmed Chalabi in power.
00:06:45Right.
00:06:46And then hope for the best.
00:06:48The problem is that there was a war within the war, which was essentially a war for budgets in Washington.
00:06:59And that means that the CIA and the State Department on the one side were fighting for certain budgets that were initially entirely allocated to the Pentagon.
00:07:15This was going to be the Pentagon's war.
00:07:19But once they were in there and they realized they had to actually rule a very unruly place, a very difficult place to rule because of the sectarian divisions.
00:07:30And, of course, the Shiite Sunni division and the ethnic divisions with the Kurds and with two countries right next to them, meaning Syria and Iran, which both had an interest in making sure the Iraqi attempt at democracy would fail.
00:07:52Well, let's not forget, all those borders in that region were written by Britain and France after World War I and make no sense to the actual life people live on the ground whatsoever, which is why all the lines are straight and not mindful of where people actually live.
00:08:11Just putting that out there.
00:08:12Continue.
00:08:12But it's very true.
00:08:14I mean, the line is straight between Iraq and Jordan because they drew it exactly at the midpoint between Amman and Baghdad.
00:08:24Yeah.
00:08:25It was convenient for colonial planners, but not great for the people on the ground.
00:08:30No.
00:08:30And this road, which used to be called the triangle of death, if you look at movies like War Dogs, for example, for example, this Sunni area between Amman and Baghdad has always been,
00:08:50since the adventures of Gertrude Bell and Lawrence of Arabia had always been sort of a sort of a refuge for thieves and gangs and et cetera,
00:09:05which eventually gave us ISIS and Daesh or however people prefer to call it.
00:09:12Right.
00:09:13Yeah, no, so, yeah, no, we were left with a situation that was very chaotic and during which they found Saddam's secret list of who he had done illicit deals with,
00:09:35which means that essentially what was supposed to be a humanitarian program had in fact been hijacked.
00:09:43by the regime and that 2,200 or 2,300, I can't remember exactly the number of international corporations involved in providing the food,
00:09:57the electricity, the pharmaceutical, you can imagine it.
00:10:01It went from Viagra to powdered milk, okay?
00:10:06We essentially had-
00:10:08So we need to call Nestle, Carnation, Coca-Cola, Pepsi.
00:10:13Including America, Mexico, and Halliburton, and Volvo.
00:10:20If anyone just wants to line up at the next Davos meeting, we'll just take down your names and call your people.
00:10:26Everyone was involved.
00:10:27It was, we basically at the UN were in charge of the economy of an entire country,
00:10:33which was a very, very awkward position to put the UN in to begin with.
00:10:37But what happened is, when that list was published, first in an Iraqi newspaper,
00:10:44I understood that we would need to see if that list was real or not.
00:10:55And KPMG had been brought in, and they had said that based on their forensic, you know, look at it, it was authentic.
00:11:06But on that list, many, many important people's names were on it, including French ambassadors
00:11:13and foreign ministers of, you know, South Africa, India, very high-level Australian also politicians.
00:11:29So we had to figure out whether, and most disturbingly for me, my boss's boss at the UN,
00:11:40who is the guy I traveled to Iraq with a lot to try to assess the situation and the needs.
00:11:46So he was on the list.
00:11:52And so what I ended up doing is I called the office of Kofi Annan at the time.
00:12:01And I told them that...
00:12:02Former Secretary General of the United Nations, for those that don't know.
00:12:05That's right.
00:12:07I think it's the last semi-competent Secretary General the UN has had.
00:12:11Because the ones since have just been from bad to worse.
00:12:20But, yeah, I called up to them.
00:12:23There were seven investigations gearing up in Congress.
00:12:29And I know what happens because I had prior experience covering scandals with CNN
00:12:36and being on K Street and advising corporations that were called into hearings and so on.
00:12:46So I told them there's going to be...
00:12:48This is not going to go away.
00:12:50You can't push it under the bed.
00:12:53But they didn't listen.
00:12:55And so I found myself then having spent my most sort of idealistic years at the UN
00:13:04trying to make the system work from the inside and really doing my best.
00:13:10And after having done my best and seeing how corrupt it still was, I simply resigned.
00:13:16I hadn't planned on becoming a whistleblower or anything like that.
00:13:20But when I realized that they weren't going to investigate this themselves
00:13:25or allow a proper independent investigation,
00:13:28I decided that I needed to take my own position, make my own position clear.
00:13:35And that essentially became an op-ed, which was published in the Wall Street Journal.
00:13:44And which snowballed because suddenly everybody agreed that there should be
00:13:50an independent investigation, which was very ironic because basically most countries
00:13:59hadn't received any proper instructions from their foreign office
00:14:09because it wasn't the foreign offices or the state departments of countries
00:14:15that were in charge of monitoring our operation.
00:14:18It was actually the CIA and the MI6, etc.
00:14:27Foreign intelligence agencies who are famously open and transparent
00:14:31and have tons of oversight.
00:14:33That's right.
00:14:34So they have zero oversight.
00:14:37They also had no time to give instructions to their ambassadors.
00:14:41And so they found themselves all sitting around a table.
00:14:45And Kofi Annan's son had been also on the list, involved in some dirty deals,
00:14:53you know, allegedly.
00:14:56And so they ended up voting for what I had called for in an op-ed.
00:15:05And then suddenly I had to go testify in Congress.
00:15:07And suddenly, basically, I was slapped with the whistleblower label.
00:15:14I think a true whistleblower is someone that blows the whistle
00:15:18while he's in, you know, in office or in their duty.
00:15:24I had actually just resigned myself.
00:15:27And I just wanted to know the truth because the UN is good.
00:15:32One thing, it's good at keeping files.
00:15:35And so Kofi Annan appointed a very, very qualified man to lead the investigation.
00:15:44He asked for 30 very experienced FBI and Scotland Yard investigators.
00:15:55They basically raided our former office and took all the computers and took all the files.
00:16:02And I had to testify in front of that committee as well.
00:16:06And so then the oil for food program dominated the press for about a year in 2004-5
00:16:17because it was a drip, drip, drip of information that kept looking worse and worse.
00:16:26And so in democratic countries, most of the companies that had basically broken the law,
00:16:36such as the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in the U.S., but every country has an equivalent.
00:16:42That was a lot of scalps for a DA to be able to bring, to pay huge fines,
00:16:55which meant millions of dollars going into the coffers of Western governments
00:17:00rather than actually going back to the people of Iraq,
00:17:04which is the people we stole the money from to begin with.
00:17:07But so then there was interest in hearing about that story.
00:17:16And it kind of gave me suddenly an act three to my experience at the UN,
00:17:22which had really started at the very candid age of 24,
00:17:2724, when I had a very rapid sort of introduction to the real world,
00:17:37first with a job at CNN, then with a job on K Street,
00:17:42which, as you said, in Washington is where the lobbyist firm, the lobbying firms are.
00:17:48I just thought I was going to go to a law firm to train for law school.
00:17:52But I quickly understood the game that was going on in Washington.
00:18:00So it gave me a bit of a sort of a, it gave me a little prep
00:18:04for what a scandal like that could look like.
00:18:09And I didn't realize I would be at the center of it at all.
00:18:14But since I was the only UN person actually prepared to open my mouth
00:18:20and talk about what we had done right and what we had done wrong,
00:18:26then a lot of press inquiries came.
00:18:30And what started as a short story about the first day I had to go to Iraq
00:18:38after just being hired at the age of 24,
00:18:41with a boss whose elocution I just could not understand.
00:18:48He was an Armenian Cypriot who had some kind of speech impediment
00:18:54that I couldn't put my finger on.
00:18:57And so it just started with me describing the scene of me in the limo
00:19:01with this guy that I didn't understand heading to Iraq
00:19:05just one week after I was hired at the UN in the middle of a conflict
00:19:11where the US was bombing and the UN weapons inspectors were going in
00:19:17and were going out.
00:19:19And we were flying in on this albatross of a UN airplane
00:19:23piloted by a drunk Ukrainian pilot.
00:19:27I mean, I can't tell you how really intense that trip was.
00:19:33So this must be the beginning of Backstabbing for Beginners then.
00:19:37So, well, yeah, it was the beginning of my experience at the UN.
00:19:41And the reason why I eventually called my book
00:19:45Backstabbing for Beginners was, of course,
00:19:48because my tone in writing the book was a little ironic,
00:19:55a little satirical, because I thought that the world
00:19:59in which I had been, you know, thrown in
00:20:03was one where betrayal was really at sort of the common theme
00:20:15that I found that every layer of analysis that I could,
00:20:21that I used to try to understand that world,
00:20:24I think we betrayed the Iraqi people for allowing so many
00:20:31very influential and very rich people steal from them
00:20:38when they were at their weakest.
00:20:41And within the UN, I also saw people backstab each other
00:20:47in, you know, throwing what I would call
00:20:51bureaucratic banana peels under each other's feet.
00:20:58And you could just, you know, the whole atmosphere was like
00:21:01a bunch of people who hate each other,
00:21:04but are forced to work together for world peace.
00:21:09So the premise...
00:21:10I think that's a sentence that very well describes
00:21:12the UN and its governance issues, you know.
00:21:15That's right.
00:21:15So the book was called Backstabbing for Beginners,
00:21:18My Crash Course in International Diplomacy.
00:21:22It's on its third edition now,
00:21:24since the movie of the book came out,
00:21:27a movie by the same name,
00:21:30came out in 2018, right before COVID.
00:21:34And then it was on HBO and it's now on Amazon Prime in the U.S.
00:21:40Very nice.
00:21:40So, yeah, Ben Kingsley played my former boss
00:21:44and I'm played by the very good-looking Mr. Theo James.
00:21:51Most people might know him from the second season of White Lotus
00:21:56or The Gentleman, I guess he's in now on Netflix.
00:22:01Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:22:02But he, you know, it was a very strange experience
00:22:06to be portrayed like that.
00:22:08Some of the scenes in the film were really evocative
00:22:12of the experience I had gone through.
00:22:17It's just that when I wrote about it,
00:22:19I had a bit of a protective layer.
00:22:22I'm someone who often uses humor
00:22:25as a way to sort of deflate tense situations.
00:22:29And that's always worked quite well for me
00:22:34in a variety of circumstances.
00:22:37So I adopted that tone in the book
00:22:39and it was part of the reason for the success of the book also
00:22:44because it's basically a first job gone wrong book.
00:22:48Some people might remember books like The Devil Wears Prada
00:22:53or books like Liar's Poker,
00:22:57which was Michael Lewis's first book.
00:23:04He wrote many others since that were made into films as well.
00:23:08But I adopted that kind of format to tell the story
00:23:14because corruption is not an entirely serious subject.
00:23:20It's people doing something they know is wrong
00:23:23just because they think they might not get caught.
00:23:27And it's true that as long as the Iraqi people
00:23:31didn't have a voice or a free press,
00:23:35then we were never going to know about how we treated them
00:23:39when the UN and Saddam together had them under their control.
00:23:45Isn't there also another aspect where, you know,
00:23:50when you're in these big organizations
00:23:52and working with these big multinational companies,
00:23:54you can sort of put a veneer of honesty on top of it
00:23:58while those who want to get paid are getting paid underneath.
00:24:02And it sometimes takes, you know,
00:24:05sometimes by mere accident or sometimes by intention
00:24:08to find out that the veneer of honesty is just that veneer.
00:24:15It's something that if you ask British bankers
00:24:21in the Cayman Islands, they're good with that veneer, let's say.
00:24:27So, yeah, I mean, oil is the black elixir
00:24:34that makes our global economy go around.
00:24:38And usually in that business,
00:24:41when you're dealing with dictatorships,
00:24:43there's going to be 10 to 20% of any transaction
00:24:49that disappears to Switzerland or Qatar
00:24:53or whatever place they feel the money might be safe
00:24:57from being frozen in further sanctions and so on.
00:25:01So the beginning of what became really the rape of Iraq's oil infrastructure,
00:25:09which continues to this day,
00:25:11because today it's Iran that's essentially stealing Iraq's oil
00:25:16to evade the sanctions that are placed on them.
00:25:21So they pretend it's Iraqi oil going out.
00:25:24And because the Revolutionary Guards still exert some amount of influence in Iraq,
00:25:32they're able to reap some profits from the oil sales that that country.
00:25:38So the two of the biggest oil suppliers in the world basically are, yeah, still, you know.
00:25:50But the thing is, when you know you have to deal in,
00:25:56it's a very common dilemma for the humanitarian community.
00:25:59And I think that we have to just be honest about it.
00:26:03When you have to deliver food and go through warlords in Somalia
00:26:08or in the Congo, where I've also reported from,
00:26:13or in Afghanistan,
00:26:15you are going to pay bakshish,
00:26:20as it's called in Arabic.
00:26:23It's customary.
00:26:27Europe was also built.
00:26:30If you look at the Rhineland in Germany,
00:26:33it's a very rich part of the country
00:26:39because there were warlords
00:26:42that controlled much of the European trade at the time
00:26:49since the Middle Ages, you know.
00:26:51And they would stop the boats
00:26:53and exact the toll on them.
00:26:57So the UN's role is not so much to...
00:27:02When you can't avoid
00:27:04paying your way to get access
00:27:10to the civilian population,
00:27:14then the least we can do is be honest about it.
00:27:17We may still say that on balance,
00:27:22it's worth doing our humanitarian work.
00:27:26But we have to be honest about the fact
00:27:29that it profits people
00:27:30that are very unsavory characters.
00:27:33And having been to Iraq
00:27:35and spoken with people
00:27:38from the village of Halabja, for example,
00:27:40which was gassed
00:27:42with a cocktail of VX
00:27:45and mustard gas
00:27:47by Saddam Hussein
00:27:49in...
00:27:53I think it was in the late 80s.
00:27:57They still live through that trauma today.
00:28:02Basically, it was like a James Bond film.
00:28:05Like, everybody just falls down
00:28:06after the plane, you know,
00:28:08or the helicopters in this case
00:28:10flew by.
00:28:12Everybody just suddenly smells
00:28:14some, you know...
00:28:17If it was mustard gas,
00:28:19of course, it has certain effects.
00:28:21But VX kills people
00:28:23in quite a horrible way.
00:28:27And so when you talk to people
00:28:31who have been tortured
00:28:33or who have seen their family members
00:28:35be tortured in front of them
00:28:38by Saddam's regime
00:28:42at the time,
00:28:43his Republican guards,
00:28:46the way they treated the minorities...
00:28:50Well, in this case,
00:28:52the Shiite were actually
00:28:53a majority in Iraq,
00:28:55but they were treated
00:28:57as a minority.
00:28:59Then you understood
00:29:00that this regime
00:29:03was not going to allow
00:29:04anything through their hands
00:29:07that they weren't going
00:29:08to put their fingers on.
00:29:11So we were faced
00:29:12with a dilemma.
00:29:15But our job at the UN
00:29:17was to report the truth.
00:29:20And we,
00:29:21with a little veneer,
00:29:23as you say,
00:29:24of diplomatic speak,
00:29:28we managed
00:29:29to completely
00:29:31fail
00:29:35on our basic mission,
00:29:38which was
00:29:39to report
00:29:40on the distribution
00:29:41of goods in Iraq.
00:29:44So out of
00:29:45a $73 billion program
00:29:47that was fueled
00:29:49by Iraqi oil money,
00:29:51a lot of rich people
00:29:53got richer
00:29:54while the Iraqi people
00:29:56got to
00:29:57be treated
00:29:59to
00:29:59completely infested
00:30:01food deliveries,
00:30:04soap that gave them
00:30:05rashes
00:30:06and
00:30:06spoiled medicines,
00:30:10in many cases,
00:30:12fake medicines.
00:30:13they were forced
00:30:16to operate
00:30:18in hospitals
00:30:19that didn't have
00:30:20electricity
00:30:21on the operating table.
00:30:24You know,
00:30:25they didn't have
00:30:26enough
00:30:27painkillers.
00:30:29I mean,
00:30:29it was down to that.
00:30:32And
00:30:32despite that level
00:30:34of
00:30:34hardship,
00:30:36many,
00:30:40many
00:30:40very
00:30:41influential
00:30:42and
00:30:43well-to-do
00:30:43people
00:30:44served
00:30:46themselves
00:30:46and served
00:30:48the Iraqi
00:30:49regime
00:30:50on their way.
00:30:52So,
00:30:53when everything
00:30:54came to light,
00:30:55a lot
00:30:57of things
00:30:58happened.
00:30:59But one
00:30:59of the
00:30:59things
00:31:00that
00:31:00happened,
00:31:00of course,
00:31:01was that
00:31:01suddenly
00:31:03there was
00:31:03interest
00:31:04in a book
00:31:04about that
00:31:05story.
00:31:07And if
00:31:08you're
00:31:08familiar
00:31:09with the
00:31:10book industry,
00:31:10it's not
00:31:11easy to
00:31:11break in
00:31:12as a
00:31:12first-time
00:31:12writer.
00:31:14And so,
00:31:15I decided
00:31:16to do
00:31:16something
00:31:16that I
00:31:16had never
00:31:17thought
00:31:17I would
00:31:18do,
00:31:19which is
00:31:19to write
00:31:20an actual
00:31:20book
00:31:21about my
00:31:21experience.
00:31:23I had
00:31:24not intended
00:31:25to do
00:31:25this.
00:31:26When I
00:31:27left the
00:31:28UN, I
00:31:28was like,
00:31:29let's not
00:31:30burn any
00:31:30bridges,
00:31:31let's just
00:31:31move on.
00:31:34But
00:31:34sometimes
00:31:35life forces
00:31:36you into
00:31:37a corner.
00:31:37You know,
00:31:37once you're
00:31:38branded a
00:31:38whistleblower,
00:31:39you might
00:31:39as well
00:31:39go with
00:31:40it,
00:31:40kind of.
00:31:43No,
00:31:44that's
00:31:44certainly
00:31:44true.
00:31:44And I
00:31:45think that
00:31:45is an
00:31:45excellent
00:31:46bridge
00:31:47into
00:31:47getting
00:31:47us
00:31:47into
00:31:48influence
00:31:50and
00:31:50media,
00:31:50because
00:31:51you're
00:31:51kind of
00:31:52an
00:31:52influencer
00:31:53sort of
00:31:54thing.
00:31:55And the
00:31:56media
00:31:56landscape
00:31:57from
00:31:58back
00:31:58then to
00:31:59now has
00:32:00changed
00:32:00so much.
00:32:02I remember
00:32:03when I
00:32:03first started
00:32:04getting into
00:32:05magazines and
00:32:05whatnot when I
00:32:06was 17
00:32:07years old in
00:32:082005,
00:32:09which was
00:32:0920 years
00:32:10ago,
00:32:10which is
00:32:10weird to
00:32:11think about
00:32:11and say,
00:32:12that it was
00:32:18very old
00:32:18fashioned and
00:32:19there was a
00:32:19pathway and
00:32:19all this type
00:32:20of thing.
00:32:20and then
00:32:21social media
00:32:22arrives and
00:32:23the smartphone
00:32:23arrives right
00:32:25after it.
00:32:26And the
00:32:27media goes
00:32:27from the
00:32:28book,
00:32:29the newspaper,
00:32:30the television
00:32:30to,
00:32:31you know,
00:32:33our pockets.
00:32:35And so
00:32:36how has,
00:32:38and you talk
00:32:39a lot about
00:32:39that now,
00:32:40so how is
00:32:40this whole
00:32:41world,
00:32:43you know,
00:32:43with your
00:32:44own career,
00:32:45with the
00:32:45media,
00:32:45all this
00:32:46everything,
00:32:46how,
00:32:47in your
00:32:47view,
00:32:48what's the
00:32:49good,
00:32:49bad,
00:32:49and the
00:32:50ugly of
00:32:50how media
00:32:50works now?
00:32:51Because I
00:32:52have a
00:32:52tight 20
00:32:53on that,
00:32:53but people
00:32:54didn't come
00:32:54here to
00:32:54hear me,
00:32:55they came
00:32:55here to
00:32:55see you,
00:32:56to hear you,
00:32:57so what's,
00:32:58I mean,
00:32:59what,
00:32:59in your,
00:33:00I mean,
00:33:00there's so
00:33:01many different
00:33:02angles in
00:33:02terms of,
00:33:03you know,
00:33:03people that
00:33:04only read the
00:33:04headlines and
00:33:05we're losing
00:33:06literacy and
00:33:07all of these
00:33:07different things,
00:33:08but what's
00:33:09your view of
00:33:09the modern
00:33:10media landscape,
00:33:12the wasteland
00:33:12that it is?
00:33:14I mean,
00:33:15I think we're
00:33:16all trying to
00:33:17figure it out
00:33:17together,
00:33:18right,
00:33:19as live,
00:33:21as it
00:33:22happens,
00:33:23for example,
00:33:24nobody had
00:33:24predicted the
00:33:25first election
00:33:26of Donald
00:33:27Trump,
00:33:28nobody,
00:33:30not even
00:33:30him,
00:33:32and yet,
00:33:34it was as
00:33:34if the,
00:33:35and in the
00:33:36second time
00:33:37around too,
00:33:38the Democrats
00:33:39were very much
00:33:40playing what
00:33:40they called
00:33:41their ground
00:33:42game,
00:33:43which involved
00:33:44a lot of
00:33:45people knocking
00:33:45on a lot of
00:33:46people's doors
00:33:47when they
00:33:47were not
00:33:48necessarily
00:33:48invited.
00:33:51And while
00:33:52they were,
00:33:54so they
00:33:54were waging
00:33:55a ground
00:33:56war while
00:33:57Donald Trump's
00:33:59team was
00:33:59waging an
00:34:00air war
00:34:01through social
00:34:02media.
00:34:03And he
00:34:04understood...
00:34:05There's been a lot
00:34:05of talk about
00:34:05the Trump campaign
00:34:06and their use
00:34:07of podcasts,
00:34:08new media,
00:34:09especially apolitical
00:34:10podcasts that
00:34:10don't tend to
00:34:11talk about
00:34:11politics very much
00:34:12and who
00:34:13reach audiences
00:34:14who are not
00:34:15news junkies
00:34:16who follow
00:34:16politics,
00:34:17and they
00:34:18reached new
00:34:18audiences,
00:34:19and there
00:34:20was no
00:34:21Democrat answer
00:34:21to any of
00:34:22that.
00:34:23It went
00:34:23totally unanswered,
00:34:25all this sort
00:34:26of thing,
00:34:27and so there's
00:34:28been a lot of
00:34:28talk about,
00:34:29you know,
00:34:29well, how do
00:34:30we fix and
00:34:30change that?
00:34:31I don't know
00:34:31that you can,
00:34:32but anyway,
00:34:33continue.
00:34:33Well, no,
00:34:34but we have
00:34:34to understand
00:34:35what the,
00:34:35what,
00:34:36yeah,
00:34:38what the
00:34:38battlefield
00:34:39looks like,
00:34:40and I think
00:34:42one important
00:34:44thing to
00:34:44understand is
00:34:45that our
00:34:47frontal cortex
00:34:49or our
00:34:50amygdala or
00:34:51whatever,
00:34:52it was explained
00:34:52to me by a
00:34:53psychiatrist,
00:34:54is basically
00:34:56wired to
00:34:59look at the
00:35:00most outrageous
00:35:01proposition that
00:35:03comes to us
00:35:04on our screen.
00:35:06I think you
00:35:06were very
00:35:07right earlier.
00:35:08Whoever
00:35:09controls this
00:35:10space controls
00:35:13the choices
00:35:13we have in
00:35:15terms of
00:35:16It's the most
00:35:16valuable piece
00:35:17of real estate
00:35:18and media.
00:35:19It is,
00:35:19exactly.
00:35:20It's our
00:35:20screen.
00:35:21So now it's
00:35:22the battle
00:35:23for the
00:35:23screens,
00:35:24right?
00:35:27We're back
00:35:27to scrolling.
00:35:29So if you
00:35:30look at the
00:35:31history of
00:35:32writing,
00:35:33we started
00:35:35with hacking
00:35:37into wood
00:35:38and then
00:35:39stone and
00:35:40then eventually
00:35:41writing on
00:35:42paper.
00:35:44And we had
00:35:44scrolls and
00:35:45we would
00:35:45scroll through
00:35:46stories,
00:35:47you know,
00:35:48from left to
00:35:48right or right
00:35:49to left,
00:35:50depending on
00:35:50the culture.
00:35:52But the
00:35:52earliest forms
00:35:53of writing
00:35:53were just
00:35:55oral tradition
00:35:56stories that
00:35:57were written
00:35:58down in
00:36:00scrolls.
00:36:01And then
00:36:02eventually,
00:36:03you know,
00:36:03we invented
00:36:03the printing
00:36:04press.
00:36:05But what
00:36:06were the
00:36:07first big
00:36:08successes
00:36:08in the age
00:36:11of the
00:36:11printing press?
00:36:12They were
00:36:13actually stories
00:36:14about witchcraft.
00:36:16They were
00:36:17not stories
00:36:18about necessarily
00:36:19the most
00:36:20important or
00:36:20scientific,
00:36:22you know,
00:36:22even though
00:36:24these things
00:36:25were able to
00:36:26get published,
00:36:26they were
00:36:29not the
00:36:29first things
00:36:30to get
00:36:30widely
00:36:31distributed.
00:36:32So
00:36:32conspiracy
00:36:33theories
00:36:34were
00:36:35definitely
00:36:36some of
00:36:36the first
00:36:37mega hits
00:36:38in the
00:36:39age of
00:36:40the
00:36:40printing
00:36:41press.
00:36:42And we
00:36:43find ourselves
00:36:43in the
00:36:44same zone
00:36:46right now,
00:36:47which means
00:36:49that even
00:36:50though there's
00:36:51more information
00:36:52available to
00:36:52us than
00:36:54there has
00:36:54ever been
00:36:55in the
00:36:56history of
00:36:56mankind,
00:36:58we are
00:36:59not necessarily
00:37:00given freedom
00:37:03of choice.
00:37:05We have
00:37:05to choose
00:37:06between very
00:37:07polarizing
00:37:08takes on
00:37:10the news.
00:37:11And why
00:37:11are they
00:37:12polarizing?
00:37:13They're
00:37:13polarizing
00:37:14because
00:37:15clickbait
00:37:18works by
00:37:20attracting
00:37:20our sense
00:37:22of outrage.
00:37:23So the
00:37:23most outrageous
00:37:24way the
00:37:26news can
00:37:27be presented
00:37:28on YouTube
00:37:30or other
00:37:32medium,
00:37:34they're going
00:37:35to attract
00:37:35the most
00:37:36clicks.
00:37:38And in the
00:37:38age we live
00:37:39in now...
00:37:40I've always
00:37:40joked that
00:37:41the show
00:37:41would be
00:37:42more popular
00:37:42if I were
00:37:43more polarizing
00:37:44and outrageous,
00:37:45even though the
00:37:46exact purpose I do
00:37:47this is to not
00:37:48do that.
00:37:48But I've
00:37:49always joked
00:37:49that, yes,
00:37:50that's, you
00:37:50know, sort of
00:37:51thing.
00:37:51And when I
00:37:52have clips of
00:37:53my shows
00:37:54done, they're
00:37:55clipped by
00:37:55AI who also
00:37:56writes the
00:37:57titles.
00:37:57And they are
00:37:58the most
00:37:58caustic
00:37:59clickbait.
00:37:59They're much
00:38:00more popular
00:38:00than the
00:38:00long form,
00:38:01which I write
00:38:01myself.
00:38:02But, I mean,
00:38:03regrettably,
00:38:04that is what
00:38:05attracts people.
00:38:06And I think
00:38:06we have so
00:38:08much, there's
00:38:10so much
00:38:10information the
00:38:11human brain
00:38:12cannot process
00:38:14it all.
00:38:14It is not
00:38:15possible.
00:38:15The job of
00:38:16the journalist
00:38:16is to
00:38:17process it
00:38:18in a
00:38:19storied
00:38:19fashion,
00:38:20because story
00:38:21is our
00:38:22basic operating
00:38:24system,
00:38:24okay?
00:38:25When it
00:38:25comes to
00:38:26information,
00:38:27the human
00:38:27mind is,
00:38:30you know,
00:38:31after the
00:38:32baby asks
00:38:32for food,
00:38:33he asks,
00:38:34I think,
00:38:35famously,
00:38:38now,
00:38:40there's a
00:38:41masterclass
00:38:41where
00:38:42Salman
00:38:45Rushdie,
00:38:46who,
00:38:47for his
00:38:47freedom of
00:38:48expression,
00:38:48has been
00:38:49stabbed in
00:38:49the eye
00:38:50and lost
00:38:51his sight
00:38:52as recently
00:38:55as two
00:38:56years ago,
00:38:57I think it
00:38:57was.
00:38:58Yeah.
00:39:01You know,
00:39:02the fatwa
00:39:03against him
00:39:04issued by
00:39:06Ayatollah
00:39:08Khomeini
00:39:09dates back
00:39:10from the
00:39:11the late
00:39:121980s.
00:39:16And in
00:39:172020
00:39:18something,
00:39:19finally,
00:39:21someone,
00:39:22because there
00:39:22had been many
00:39:23attempts,
00:39:24but someone
00:39:25was able to
00:39:25get to him
00:39:26with a
00:39:28knife,
00:39:29stabbing him
00:39:31right in
00:39:31the eye.
00:39:33So,
00:39:34freedom of
00:39:35expression
00:39:36in and of
00:39:38itself,
00:39:39in many
00:39:40parts of
00:39:40the world
00:39:41is dangerous.
00:39:43And in
00:39:44the parts
00:39:44of the
00:39:45world where
00:39:46we have
00:39:46it,
00:39:48what do
00:39:49we use
00:39:49it for?
00:39:51We use
00:39:52it to
00:39:52try to
00:39:53attract
00:39:53followers.
00:39:56And if
00:39:57we want to
00:39:58play that
00:39:58game,
00:39:59then we
00:39:59have to
00:39:59be as
00:40:00outrageous
00:40:00as possible
00:40:01initially,
00:40:05so that
00:40:05the algorithm
00:40:06ticker
00:40:07plays in
00:40:09our favor.
00:40:10And so,
00:40:11of course,
00:40:11when you
00:40:12make a
00:40:12thumbnails,
00:40:14suddenly I
00:40:14find,
00:40:15sometimes I
00:40:16find very
00:40:17fascinating
00:40:18interviews,
00:40:19but the
00:40:20thumbnail that
00:40:20I clicked on
00:40:21promised
00:40:22something else.
00:40:25Now,
00:40:25that game is
00:40:26very familiar
00:40:27to the
00:40:27journalistic
00:40:29world.
00:40:30Titles
00:40:31have always
00:40:32been assigned
00:40:33by editors
00:40:33who are
00:40:34selling
00:40:35papers,
00:40:36and journalists
00:40:37have never
00:40:37been happy
00:40:38with the
00:40:38titles that
00:40:39were assigned
00:40:39on their
00:40:40articles.
00:40:42I've experienced
00:40:43that myself
00:40:44when I wrote
00:40:44op-eds,
00:40:45and I realized
00:40:46these guys
00:40:46can just put
00:40:47whatever title
00:40:48they want
00:40:48on this.
00:40:50And sometimes
00:40:51it doesn't go
00:40:52exactly along
00:40:54with the meaning
00:40:54that I intend.
00:40:56So it's a
00:40:57very interesting
00:40:58thing,
00:40:59but as long
00:41:00as you're
00:41:00going to have
00:41:00distribution of
00:41:02information,
00:41:03then the
00:41:04distributors
00:41:05that make
00:41:06money from
00:41:09the distribution
00:41:09of information
00:41:10are going
00:41:11to look
00:41:13to play
00:41:14that game.
00:41:14So in the
00:41:15traditional
00:41:15American town,
00:41:17you had
00:41:18two newspapers
00:41:20because there
00:41:21was the coal
00:41:22magnet and
00:41:23the railway
00:41:24magnet or
00:41:24whatever it
00:41:25was that
00:41:26town had
00:41:26as resources,
00:41:27right?
00:41:28And so
00:41:29both newspapers
00:41:31were typically
00:41:31bought.
00:41:32by the
00:41:32richest man
00:41:33in town
00:41:34or by
00:41:36his rival
00:41:36or her
00:41:37rival,
00:41:37mostly his
00:41:38at the
00:41:38time.
00:41:40And so
00:41:40they would
00:41:41of course
00:41:42take a
00:41:44position in
00:41:45political
00:41:46races,
00:41:47which,
00:41:48frankly,
00:41:49I've never
00:41:49understood the
00:41:50logic of.
00:41:51I don't know
00:41:52why the
00:41:52New York
00:41:53Times needs
00:41:54to necessarily
00:41:56as a
00:41:57newspaper
00:41:57support one
00:42:00candidate
00:42:00over another
00:42:01when in
00:42:03fact their
00:42:03job is to
00:42:04report the
00:42:04news.
00:42:06They're
00:42:06telling us
00:42:07essentially we
00:42:08are biased
00:42:10in this way
00:42:11and when you
00:42:12come to us
00:42:12you're going to
00:42:13get content
00:42:13that is biased
00:42:14in a certain
00:42:15direction.
00:42:15It used to
00:42:19be a huge
00:42:20political play
00:42:21by newspaper
00:42:21owners.
00:42:22I mean,
00:42:23it was a
00:42:23great way for
00:42:24like when you
00:42:24still had
00:42:25newspapers that
00:42:25were owned by
00:42:26people,
00:42:26not corporations
00:42:27and you
00:42:28are Randolph
00:42:29Hearst,
00:42:29Horace
00:42:30Greeley,
00:42:31Catherine
00:42:32Graham.
00:42:33Horace
00:42:33Greeley was a
00:42:34fantastic editor.
00:42:35I grew up in
00:42:36Denver and I
00:42:37went to school
00:42:38in a town named
00:42:39after him,
00:42:39Greeley,
00:42:40Colorado.
00:42:42He was
00:42:42editor of the
00:42:43New York
00:42:43Observer at
00:42:45the time?
00:42:46What was it
00:42:46called?
00:42:47I think Globe,
00:42:49I think,
00:42:49New York Globe
00:42:50or something like
00:42:50that.
00:42:51Yeah,
00:42:51it was during
00:42:52the time of
00:42:53Henry Ward
00:42:54Beecher who
00:42:55was in his
00:42:56own day,
00:42:57The Most
00:42:57Famous Man
00:42:58in America
00:42:59and there's
00:42:59a Pulitzer
00:43:00Prize winning
00:43:01book called
00:43:03The Most
00:43:04Famous Man
00:43:04in America
00:43:05which I
00:43:06would also
00:43:06encourage
00:43:07everybody to
00:43:08read.
00:43:08Speaking of
00:43:09people who
00:43:10run newspapers
00:43:10at one time
00:43:12if you were a
00:43:13candidate and
00:43:14you could get
00:43:14a major city
00:43:15newspaper on
00:43:15your side,
00:43:16that could
00:43:16swing race,
00:43:17you know,
00:43:18sort of thing.
00:43:18Well,
00:43:19case in point,
00:43:20Horace Greeley
00:43:20and Henry Ward
00:43:21Beecher,
00:43:22the most prominent
00:43:23preacher in
00:43:24America at the
00:43:25time,
00:43:25he was an
00:43:26anti-slavery
00:43:26preacher.
00:43:28They got
00:43:29Lincoln on
00:43:32the ticket.
00:43:33Yes,
00:43:34they did.
00:43:34He invited
00:43:35him to New
00:43:35York.
00:43:36He gave his
00:43:36speech.
00:43:37First,
00:43:38he went to
00:43:39Beecher's
00:43:39Church because
00:43:40it was the
00:43:41most fashionable
00:43:42thing to do
00:43:42at the time,
00:43:43Plymouth Church
00:43:44in Brooklyn
00:43:45Heights,
00:43:46which was
00:43:46already a
00:43:47fancy area
00:43:48at the time.
00:43:51And then he
00:43:52went and gave
00:43:52his own speech.
00:43:53he was
00:43:54not as
00:43:55good
00:43:55a public
00:43:58speaker as
00:43:59Beecher
00:44:02was,
00:44:03but he
00:44:06essentially
00:44:07was chosen
00:44:08by the
00:44:09creme de la
00:44:09creme of
00:44:10New York's
00:44:11intelligentsia
00:44:12at the time
00:44:13to be the
00:44:14candidate because
00:44:15at the time
00:44:16the Republican
00:44:16Party was the
00:44:18party of
00:44:18change.
00:44:19It was the
00:44:20party of
00:44:21progress and
00:44:23the Democratic
00:44:25Party was,
00:44:26of course,
00:44:27pro-slavery.
00:44:29So, you
00:44:31know, how
00:44:31things change.
00:44:33But, so,
00:44:36you know,
00:44:37against many
00:44:38tall odds,
00:44:41Lincoln won
00:44:42the election
00:44:43and almost
00:44:45immediately
00:44:45thereafter,
00:44:47the
00:44:48secession
00:44:49began.
00:44:51And it's
00:44:52a fascinating
00:44:53time in
00:44:54history,
00:44:55which I,
00:44:57we actually
00:44:58got the
00:44:59rights to
00:44:59the Pulitzer
00:45:00Prize winning
00:45:00book about
00:45:01Henry Ward
00:45:02Beecher,
00:45:03who was so
00:45:04famous at the
00:45:04time that
00:45:05soaps were
00:45:06named after
00:45:06him,
00:45:06dolls were
00:45:07named after
00:45:08him.
00:45:09The ferry
00:45:09that went to
00:45:10Brooklyn was
00:45:11called the
00:45:11Beecher
00:45:12Ferry.
00:45:12because people
00:45:14every Sunday
00:45:15would rush to
00:45:16try to make
00:45:18it to one of
00:45:18his sermons,
00:45:19which were
00:45:20then famously
00:45:21published by the
00:45:22New York
00:45:22Independent as
00:45:25the star
00:45:26papers,
00:45:27because he
00:45:27wouldn't sign
00:45:28them himself,
00:45:29he would just
00:45:29put a star.
00:45:31And he was
00:45:32such a star.
00:45:34It was just
00:45:35incredible.
00:45:36So he was
00:45:36eventually taken
00:45:37down in a
00:45:37sex scandal.
00:45:38together with
00:45:40Spike Lee's
00:45:41production company,
00:45:44we've been
00:45:44shopping this
00:45:46project for a
00:45:47while.
00:45:47So in terms
00:45:49of influence
00:45:50that you
00:45:51brought up,
00:45:52my sense
00:45:55when I left
00:45:55the UN
00:45:56and I had
00:45:59then gone
00:46:00to film
00:46:00school,
00:46:01was that
00:46:02some stories
00:46:03are impossible
00:46:04to communicate
00:46:05because
00:46:07precisely
00:46:08because
00:46:09some
00:46:14issues
00:46:14are so
00:46:15politicized.
00:46:17With the
00:46:18UN at the
00:46:18time being
00:46:19like all
00:46:19the Democrats
00:46:20would automatically
00:46:21be pro-UN
00:46:22no matter
00:46:23what,
00:46:23and all
00:46:24the Republicans
00:46:24would automatically
00:46:25be anti-UN
00:46:26no matter
00:46:27what.
00:46:28And I
00:46:28didn't care
00:46:29about pro-UN
00:46:30or anti-UN.
00:46:31I was like,
00:46:31okay,
00:46:32well,
00:46:32we've got
00:46:32this organization.
00:46:33What do
00:46:33we do
00:46:34with it?
00:46:35And so
00:46:36for me,
00:46:36the values
00:46:37of transparency
00:46:38and accountability
00:46:39became
00:46:40clearly
00:46:41very important.
00:46:43But when
00:46:44it came
00:46:45to
00:46:45communicating
00:46:46to a
00:46:48wider
00:46:48public
00:46:48who does
00:46:50not know
00:46:50every acronym
00:46:51of every
00:46:52UN agency
00:46:53and so
00:46:54on,
00:46:55I thought
00:46:56that the
00:46:56storytelling
00:46:57medium
00:47:00or vessel
00:47:04rather
00:47:04was the
00:47:06most interesting
00:47:07one for
00:47:07me to
00:47:08study.
00:47:10And so
00:47:12the rules
00:47:12of drama
00:47:13are what
00:47:15they are,
00:47:15where they
00:47:15were established,
00:47:16I think,
00:47:18in Aristotle's
00:47:19Poetics.
00:47:21Every book
00:47:22about screenwriting
00:47:23you can read
00:47:23is basically
00:47:24a repetition
00:47:24of the same
00:47:25rules that
00:47:26Aristotle
00:47:26established
00:47:28when he
00:47:28described
00:47:29the structure
00:47:31of a tragedy
00:47:32and how
00:47:34the other
00:47:35face of
00:47:38that coin
00:47:39is, of
00:47:40course,
00:47:40the comedy.
00:47:44And my
00:47:44story was
00:47:45somewhere in
00:47:46the tragic
00:47:47and between
00:47:48the tragic
00:47:49and the comic.
00:47:50I faced
00:47:52situations
00:47:53where, you
00:47:54know, one
00:47:55minute you
00:47:55see a
00:47:56child on
00:47:57the verge
00:47:57of death
00:47:58and the
00:47:59next minute
00:48:00you see a
00:48:00diplomat who
00:48:01just stepped
00:48:03in the mud
00:48:04before a
00:48:05meeting with
00:48:05Saddam Hussein.
00:48:06So you've
00:48:07got situations
00:48:08that are
00:48:09anachronistic
00:48:10and that I
00:48:11think that it
00:48:12was very easy
00:48:13for me to
00:48:13communicate
00:48:14with,
00:48:14just with my
00:48:17own voice,
00:48:18you know,
00:48:18like telling
00:48:19stories as if
00:48:20I was telling
00:48:21them to
00:48:21someone at
00:48:22a bar,
00:48:23essentially.
00:48:26And that
00:48:27was eventually
00:48:28how I sold
00:48:29this book.
00:48:29And the
00:48:30advice came
00:48:30to me by,
00:48:32came to me
00:48:35from Sam
00:48:36Shepard,
00:48:36who I had
00:48:38randomly sat
00:48:40next to
00:48:40at a bar
00:48:42in New
00:48:43York.
00:48:43And we
00:48:45started chatting
00:48:46and it was,
00:48:47I had gotten
00:48:4730 rejections
00:48:49from my book
00:48:50and I thought,
00:48:50okay,
00:48:50I'm never
00:48:51going to,
00:48:51I'm done
00:48:52trying to be
00:48:53a writer.
00:48:54And then I
00:48:55was talking
00:48:56to this guy
00:48:57who looked
00:48:58to me like
00:48:59he might be
00:48:59famous or
00:49:01I didn't
00:49:01quite know,
00:49:02but I
00:49:03thought,
00:49:03oh,
00:49:03maybe he's
00:49:04a writer
00:49:04who wrote
00:49:04a book
00:49:05once,
00:49:05you know,
00:49:05and now
00:49:06he's like
00:49:06just a loser
00:49:07in the East
00:49:07Village.
00:49:09And it
00:49:10turned out
00:49:10to be,
00:49:11so he
00:49:11talked to
00:49:12me for a
00:49:12while and
00:49:13he was like,
00:49:13why are you
00:49:14abandoning
00:49:15your quest
00:49:16to become a
00:49:17writer?
00:49:17And I
00:49:18said,
00:49:18well,
00:49:19listen,
00:49:19I'm done,
00:49:20you know,
00:49:21I'm getting
00:49:21rejection letters
00:49:23from people
00:49:23who haven't
00:49:24even read
00:49:24what I
00:49:25sent.
00:49:26So what's
00:49:27the point?
00:49:28It's a
00:49:29very clogged
00:49:30system.
00:49:31And he
00:49:33said,
00:49:33you know
00:49:34what,
00:49:35just pitch
00:49:35your book
00:49:36the way you
00:49:36just,
00:49:37because I
00:49:37told him
00:49:38my story
00:49:38essentially
00:49:39at the
00:49:39bar,
00:49:40right?
00:49:40Right,
00:49:41yeah.
00:49:41And you
00:49:41know what,
00:49:42you know,
00:49:42before I
00:49:42have to
00:49:43go to
00:49:43the
00:49:43Edinburgh
00:49:43Festival,
00:49:44I have
00:49:45a plane
00:49:45to catch,
00:49:46but why
00:49:47don't you
00:49:47just tell
00:49:48people the
00:49:49story on
00:49:50paper the
00:49:50way you
00:49:50just told
00:49:51it to
00:49:51me?
00:49:51I'm
00:49:51sure it's
00:49:52going to
00:49:52work out.
00:49:53And here's
00:49:53the number
00:49:54of an
00:49:54agent and
00:49:55tell them
00:49:56you call
00:49:57them from
00:49:57me.
00:49:58So just
00:49:58to situate
00:49:59people,
00:49:59Sam
00:49:59Shepard
00:50:00plays the
00:50:01commander in
00:50:02films like
00:50:04Black Hawk
00:50:04Down.
00:50:05He was
00:50:06the biggest
00:50:06theater
00:50:09writer in
00:50:12the 1980s,
00:50:13I guess,
00:50:13of his
00:50:14generation.
00:50:15So he
00:50:16was a
00:50:17monument when
00:50:19it came to
00:50:20storytelling.
00:50:21And I
00:50:22followed his
00:50:24advice and
00:50:25I found
00:50:26that whatever
00:50:28story you're
00:50:29conveying,
00:50:30if you're
00:50:32able to
00:50:33connect with
00:50:34the audience
00:50:36on a
00:50:37personal
00:50:39level.
00:50:40And if
00:50:41you're able
00:50:41to be
00:50:42honest with
00:50:44yourself,
00:50:46then there's
00:50:49a lot more
00:50:49power in
00:50:51what you're
00:50:51able to
00:50:52project out
00:50:54there.
00:50:55And it's
00:50:59the type of
00:51:00advice you
00:51:01also need to
00:51:01give people
00:51:02who have
00:51:02their first
00:51:03time doing
00:51:04public speaking
00:51:05or things
00:51:06like that
00:51:06is people
00:51:07are actually
00:51:08on your
00:51:08side.
00:51:11And an
00:51:13example of
00:51:13that is if
00:51:14you would
00:51:15look at,
00:51:15for example,
00:51:16when we had
00:51:16President Bush
00:51:17and he
00:51:19couldn't pronounce
00:51:19things like
00:51:20nuclear, you
00:51:21know, and
00:51:21things like
00:51:22that, like
00:51:23even when it
00:51:24was, even if
00:51:25you were like
00:51:26a Democrat
00:51:27that didn't
00:51:27much care for
00:51:28him, when
00:51:30he was off
00:51:31script talking
00:51:32to the
00:51:33camera, you
00:51:34were, you
00:51:34sat there at
00:51:35the edge of
00:51:36your seat
00:51:36hoping he
00:51:37could finish
00:51:38his fucking
00:51:38sentence,
00:51:39right?
00:51:40Because the
00:51:40guy had no
00:51:41sentence structure
00:51:42going for him.
00:51:43So when he
00:51:44went off script,
00:51:45so the same
00:51:46thing happens
00:51:47ironically with
00:51:48life.
00:51:48That's Trump's
00:51:49whole shit.
00:51:51I mean, that's
00:51:52his whole thing.
00:51:53Whatever, it's
00:51:53from brain to
00:51:54mouth, as
00:51:55short a journey
00:51:56as possible.
00:51:57Well, he
00:51:58believes in
00:51:59his own
00:51:59bullshit, so
00:52:00in his
00:52:01world, he's
00:52:01not lying.
00:52:03Because he
00:52:03thinks that as
00:52:04long as he
00:52:05repeats it
00:52:06loud enough
00:52:06enough times,
00:52:08then it's
00:52:09true in his
00:52:10world.
00:52:12Cogito
00:52:12ergo
00:52:13sum.
00:52:16Well, I
00:52:16mean, it's
00:52:17amazing what
00:52:18lies are
00:52:19able to be
00:52:21perpetuated in
00:52:22our day and
00:52:23age.
00:52:24And I
00:52:25think the
00:52:26job of
00:52:26the mainstream
00:52:28media has
00:52:29really betrayed
00:52:30their
00:52:33audiences, and
00:52:35that's why
00:52:35they're going
00:52:36somewhere else
00:52:36for their
00:52:37news.
00:52:38Because the
00:52:38idea that
00:52:39every piece
00:52:40of news can
00:52:41be a story
00:52:41is also
00:52:43false.
00:52:45Sometimes
00:52:45you just
00:52:46got to give
00:52:47people the
00:52:47facts.
00:52:49Not every
00:52:50piece of
00:52:50news is a
00:52:51story.
00:52:53I always
00:52:53say on the
00:52:54news hour,
00:52:55I always
00:52:55say, remember,
00:52:56news is a
00:52:56narrative.
00:52:56That's why
00:52:57they call
00:52:57it a
00:52:57story.
00:52:58That's a
00:52:58Cameron.
00:52:59Exactly.
00:53:00But when I
00:53:01was a young
00:53:01newsman, and
00:53:02I would
00:53:03report to
00:53:04my senior
00:53:06level
00:53:07journalists at
00:53:09CNN, and I
00:53:09would come to
00:53:10them, and I'd
00:53:10be like, oh,
00:53:11the child
00:53:12mortality rate in
00:53:13Bangladesh has
00:53:14gone down by
00:53:1515% last
00:53:17year.
00:53:17I found
00:53:18some press
00:53:20release, and
00:53:21they're like, so
00:53:22what?
00:53:22I'm like, well,
00:53:23maybe we
00:53:23should put
00:53:24that on the
00:53:24news.
00:53:25And they're
00:53:26like, no,
00:53:26Michael, you
00:53:27don't understand.
00:53:28Good news is
00:53:30bad news.
00:53:31Bad news is
00:53:32good news.
00:53:34And it lacks
00:53:36sex appeal.
00:53:37You know, it's
00:53:38not, I mean, it
00:53:39doesn't have any,
00:53:40there's no hook.
00:53:41We need to
00:53:42love, we
00:53:43need to have
00:53:43these extreme
00:53:44emotions.
00:53:45We turn to
00:53:46the news in
00:53:48the hope of
00:53:48getting some
00:53:49sense of
00:53:50satisfaction about
00:53:51a preconceived
00:53:52worldview that
00:53:53we hold, you
00:53:54know, for
00:53:55various reasons,
00:53:57sometimes because
00:53:58of our
00:53:58upbringing,
00:53:59sometimes
00:53:59because we
00:54:01find some
00:54:02theories very
00:54:04alluring.
00:54:05Obviously,
00:54:06Marxism held
00:54:08sway over a
00:54:10lot of
00:54:10people for a
00:54:11long time
00:54:12because it
00:54:12told a good
00:54:13story.
00:54:15That's one of
00:54:16my criticisms
00:54:16of the hard
00:54:17sciences is
00:54:19science is
00:54:19excellent at
00:54:20giving us
00:54:20evidence of
00:54:21what is in
00:54:22our world,
00:54:22but it
00:54:23tells a
00:54:23terrible
00:54:23story.
00:54:25Religion
00:54:26has no
00:54:27evidence for
00:54:28anything, but
00:54:28it's a damn
00:54:29good story.
00:54:31Yeah, and
00:54:32you know,
00:54:33when you look
00:54:34at the Big
00:54:34Bang as a
00:54:36theory, and
00:54:38you look at
00:54:39in the
00:54:40beginning,
00:54:41there was
00:54:42the heavens,
00:54:42you know,
00:54:43and then
00:54:44there was
00:54:44light.
00:54:46Well, I
00:54:48don't know
00:54:48that the
00:54:49Big Bang
00:54:49is necessarily
00:54:50much more
00:54:51convincing to
00:54:52me that
00:54:52out of
00:54:53nothing,
00:54:54something
00:54:54suddenly
00:54:54explodes and
00:54:55creates
00:54:55everything.
00:54:56I'm like,
00:54:57how is that?
00:54:58Why do we
00:54:58need a
00:54:59beginning?
00:55:00Why couldn't
00:55:00things always
00:55:01have been
00:55:02existing,
00:55:03right?
00:55:04So there's
00:55:04that fundamental
00:55:05question, and
00:55:06you see a lot
00:55:06of YouTube
00:55:06videos about
00:55:07just that,
00:55:08because people
00:55:09still can't
00:55:10understand the
00:55:12notion that
00:55:13there was
00:55:14nothing, but
00:55:16we need there
00:55:17to be nothing
00:55:17because we
00:55:18need a
00:55:18beginning,
00:55:19right?
00:55:19Our operating
00:55:20system, a
00:55:22story, needs
00:55:23a beginning, and
00:55:24we don't know
00:55:25how to imagine
00:55:27the beginning of
00:55:28everything without
00:55:29imagining a
00:55:30nothing.
00:55:31because we
00:55:33ourselves have
00:55:33a beginning
00:55:34and an
00:55:35ending, and
00:55:36so there needs
00:55:37to be a
00:55:37complete arc.
00:55:38You don't
00:55:38necessarily want
00:55:39to join the
00:55:40program already
00:55:41in progress
00:55:41that has always
00:55:43been infinitely
00:55:43backwards in
00:55:44progress and
00:55:45will be
00:55:45infinitely forward
00:55:46always in
00:55:47progress.
00:55:47That's not as
00:55:48elegant as a
00:55:49nice, neat
00:55:50arc.
00:55:51No, but I
00:55:52think you're
00:55:52right, and
00:55:53that's why
00:55:55even though the
00:55:57God of the
00:55:58Hebrews was
00:55:59an all-powerful,
00:56:01non-visible,
00:56:03unified, we
00:56:05call it
00:56:06monotheism as
00:56:07opposed to
00:56:08polytheism,
00:56:10meaning that
00:56:10there is one
00:56:11God instead
00:56:12of having the
00:56:14Greek and the
00:56:14Romans had,
00:56:15you know, the
00:56:15God of thunder,
00:56:16the God of
00:56:17this, the
00:56:17God of that,
00:56:18Venus is the
00:56:19hot one for
00:56:20Fridays.
00:56:21Then you go to
00:56:22India, they
00:56:22have a God
00:56:23for every,
00:56:244,000 gods
00:56:25for everything.
00:56:26Yeah, you
00:56:28know, so
00:56:29we have a
00:56:31fundamental
00:56:32need to
00:56:33engage with
00:56:34what we don't
00:56:35understand and
00:56:36try to explain
00:56:37it in some
00:56:38way or another.
00:56:39And so, but
00:56:40when the
00:56:42Gospels came
00:56:43along and
00:56:44started telling
00:56:48the story of
00:56:49this one Jew
00:56:50who had gotten
00:56:51crucified by the
00:56:52Romans,
00:56:53then they
00:56:56started playing
00:56:57to, oh, so
00:57:00God has a
00:57:01son and
00:57:02that story
00:57:03was much
00:57:04more easy
00:57:05to charm
00:57:08people in
00:57:09the Greek
00:57:10and Roman
00:57:10world because
00:57:11it actually
00:57:13fit in with
00:57:14their preconceived
00:57:16sort of
00:57:17relationship with
00:57:22the divine.
00:57:22and so
00:57:23400 years
00:57:25after they
00:57:26crucified
00:57:27him,
00:57:30you know,
00:57:31they then
00:57:32adopted
00:57:33his religion
00:57:35essentially.
00:57:37Yeah.
00:57:38And then
00:57:39years later,
00:57:40the same
00:57:41story, you
00:57:42know, in the
00:57:42same name of
00:57:43that cross,
00:57:44which they
00:57:45then used
00:57:46as a,
00:57:46as a,
00:57:48like a
00:57:49motto.
00:57:49I mean,
00:57:50what do
00:57:51you call
00:57:51it?
00:57:52A sigil.
00:57:54Yeah, I
00:57:55mean, it's
00:57:55the symbol
00:57:56of their,
00:57:56of a
00:57:57religion is
00:57:58a cross on
00:57:59which someone
00:58:00got nailed
00:58:01and bled to
00:58:02death.
00:58:04So it's a
00:58:05good, I
00:58:05mean, if he
00:58:06had been,
00:58:07if his head
00:58:08had been
00:58:08chopped off,
00:58:09then we would
00:58:09be like Saudi
00:58:10Arabia and
00:58:11have a
00:58:11sword as
00:58:13a symbol.
00:58:15It was a
00:58:16very violent
00:58:16symbol and
00:58:18it was a
00:58:19very Roman
00:58:19one.
00:58:21So then
00:58:21they had
00:58:21this problem.
00:58:22Huh?
00:58:23Better than
00:58:24the fish.
00:58:25Yeah, I
00:58:26mean, you
00:58:26know, if
00:58:27the, if
00:58:27the Jews
00:58:28had killed
00:58:28Jesus,
00:58:29who was
00:58:30Jewish,
00:58:32then typically
00:58:33they would
00:58:33have stoned
00:58:34him in
00:58:35those days.
00:58:36And even
00:58:36in those
00:58:37days, I
00:58:37think stonings
00:58:38had kind
00:58:39of stopped.
00:58:40But so
00:58:43it was a
00:58:44Roman torture
00:58:46instrument of
00:58:47death.
00:58:47death and
00:58:48the church
00:58:50had this
00:58:51problem,
00:58:51which, which
00:58:52was that
00:58:54how can you
00:58:54be so
00:58:55saintly if
00:58:56you are the
00:58:56ones who
00:58:57actually nailed
00:58:59the guy that
00:59:00you are now
00:59:01bowing to,
00:59:03to the cross?
00:59:05And how in
00:59:06his name can
00:59:07you go and
00:59:07kill off other
00:59:09minorities or
00:59:11go on
00:59:11crusades or
00:59:13lead the
00:59:14Spanish
00:59:14inquisition
00:59:15in the
00:59:16name of
00:59:17this dead
00:59:18Jew,
00:59:18essentially,
00:59:20which this
00:59:20cross represents.
00:59:22So it's
00:59:22very strange,
00:59:23but today
00:59:25we have the
00:59:26same phenomenon
00:59:27that happened
00:59:30as early
00:59:33as October
00:59:338th in
00:59:36in the
00:59:36Western
00:59:37world,
00:59:38where,
00:59:40you know,
00:59:41politics aside,
00:59:43I completely
00:59:44understand that
00:59:45when people
00:59:46see images
00:59:48of suffering
00:59:52civilians,
00:59:53I started my
00:59:54career there,
00:59:55you know,
00:59:56trying to
00:59:57help the
00:59:59Arabs and
01:00:00the Kurds of
01:00:01Iraq out
01:00:03at a time
01:00:03when there
01:00:04was very
01:00:05high child
01:00:05mortality and
01:00:07basically a
01:00:07completely
01:00:08destroyed
01:00:08infrastructure.
01:00:11I understand
01:00:12that one can
01:00:14have very,
01:00:15very strong
01:00:16feelings when
01:00:17one sees
01:00:18the harm
01:00:19that war
01:00:20brings on
01:00:22civilians.
01:00:24But when
01:00:27I look at
01:00:28the influence
01:00:29game that
01:00:30was bought
01:00:32and paid
01:00:33for by
01:00:34countries like
01:00:36Qatar and
01:00:37the
01:00:40incredible
01:00:41network
01:00:42that was
01:00:44the boycott,
01:00:45divest,
01:00:46and I don't
01:00:47know what the
01:00:48S stands for,
01:00:48but BDS.
01:00:49Yeah, I forget.
01:00:50Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:51Yeah, so
01:00:51suddenly you had
01:00:52alliances with
01:00:54Black Lives
01:00:55Matter,
01:00:56which didn't
01:00:58quite make
01:00:58sense because
01:00:59the way Black
01:01:00people are
01:01:01treated in
01:01:01the Arab
01:01:02world is
01:01:02still quite
01:01:03racist,
01:01:05to say the
01:01:06least.
01:01:08The word
01:01:09for a Black
01:01:10person in
01:01:11Arabic is
01:01:12Abed.
01:01:14Abed means
01:01:15slave.
01:01:19So, or
01:01:20servant.
01:01:21So, if
01:01:22you're
01:01:23Abdallah,
01:01:24you're the
01:01:24servant of
01:01:25Allah.
01:01:26But for
01:01:27Black people,
01:01:27they just call
01:01:28them Abed.
01:01:29like, you
01:01:30know, and
01:01:31the slave
01:01:32trade, of
01:01:32course, was
01:01:34run mostly
01:01:35by, on
01:01:36the east
01:01:37coast of
01:01:37Africa, was
01:01:38certainly run
01:01:39by the
01:01:40Moors, as
01:01:41we called
01:01:42them at the
01:01:42time, or
01:01:43by Arabic
01:01:44tribes, and
01:01:47was very
01:01:50common.
01:01:52There were
01:01:52Black slaves
01:01:53in Iraq
01:01:53dating back
01:01:55dating back
01:01:56to, so
01:02:00Ahmed
01:02:01Chalabi
01:02:01had a
01:02:01daughter.
01:02:02She grew
01:02:03up in a
01:02:05different
01:02:05time, when
01:02:08her father
01:02:10was a good
01:02:11friend of the
01:02:12king of
01:02:12Jordan.
01:02:13They had a
01:02:14bit of a
01:02:15falling out,
01:02:16massive falling
01:02:17out, in
01:02:18fact.
01:02:20And, but
01:02:23so a lot
01:02:23of Somali
01:02:24or Ethiopian
01:02:25people were
01:02:27brought up to
01:02:27Iraq and
01:02:28worked as
01:02:28slaves, and
01:02:30were brought up
01:02:31to Saudi and
01:02:32worked as
01:02:32slaves.
01:02:33And it
01:02:33continues to
01:02:34this day.
01:02:35I mean, slavery
01:02:35is rampant in
01:02:36the Gulf and
01:02:38in many
01:02:39countries.
01:02:39So, for
01:02:41example, the
01:02:41connection, the
01:02:43fact that
01:02:43Black Lives
01:02:44Matter, Chicago
01:02:46chapter, issued
01:02:48a statement of
01:02:49support for
01:02:50Hamas the
01:02:50day after,
01:02:52was, it
01:02:53came as a
01:02:53shock to the
01:02:54system, I
01:02:55think, for a
01:02:55lot of
01:02:56people.
01:02:56They didn't
01:02:57understand the
01:02:58connection.
01:02:59And the
01:03:00connection is
01:03:01a narrative.
01:03:03Yes.
01:03:04And it's a
01:03:05narrative of
01:03:06victimhood,
01:03:07which easily
01:03:09latches on to
01:03:10what we
01:03:11already believe
01:03:12to be true,
01:03:14and therefore
01:03:14easily becomes
01:03:17a narrative
01:03:18that gets a
01:03:19lot of
01:03:19followers.
01:03:21Well, there's
01:03:22also, I
01:03:22think, a
01:03:23shared idea
01:03:24of solidarity
01:03:26and justice
01:03:27between the
01:03:29African-American
01:03:30community and
01:03:31the Palestinian
01:03:32community in
01:03:33regards to
01:03:34oppression,
01:03:36stolen land,
01:03:37all this type
01:03:37of thing.
01:03:38A lot of,
01:03:39you know,
01:03:40forcibly being
01:03:41moved from
01:03:41where you
01:03:41are to
01:03:42where they
01:03:42want you
01:03:43to go.
01:03:44You know,
01:03:44both Native
01:03:45Americans and
01:03:46African-Americans
01:03:46in this country.
01:03:47Yeah, which the
01:03:47Jews have a few
01:03:47notes to add
01:03:48on as well.
01:03:50Yeah, I
01:03:50mean, no one
01:03:52has clean hands
01:03:54in this
01:03:54situation.
01:03:55No, no, but
01:03:56I mean, the
01:03:57Jews that are
01:03:59in Israel
01:03:59today are
01:04:00for the
01:04:02most part
01:04:04the children
01:04:06of refugees
01:04:06who went
01:04:07there after
01:04:08the World
01:04:10War II.
01:04:11Or escaping
01:04:12czarist and
01:04:13Leninist pogroms
01:04:14in Russia.
01:04:14Yeah, and
01:04:16escaping
01:04:16Arab
01:04:17nationalism,
01:04:19which was
01:04:19also very,
01:04:20very dangerous
01:04:21for the
01:04:21very prominent
01:04:23Jewish community
01:04:24in Iraq.
01:04:25In Iran,
01:04:26there was
01:04:28a lot of
01:04:28Jews and
01:04:30a strong
01:04:31tradition of
01:04:32cultural
01:04:36relations
01:04:36between, you
01:04:37know, I
01:04:37mean, Iranian
01:04:38Jews are
01:04:39so Iranian
01:04:41that it's
01:04:42the, I
01:04:43can't tell
01:04:44the difference
01:04:44between Jewish
01:04:45Iranians from
01:04:46Forest Hills
01:04:47and Muslim
01:04:49Iranians,
01:04:50Americans,
01:04:51for example,
01:04:52because so
01:04:53much is in
01:04:54common in
01:04:54their culture.
01:04:55But refugee
01:04:57against refugee
01:04:58is kind of
01:05:01a battle
01:05:01where both
01:05:03sides have
01:05:04a victimhood
01:05:05narrative
01:05:07that is
01:05:09true,
01:05:10because every
01:05:12time there
01:05:12was a
01:05:13conflict,
01:05:14it created
01:05:15refugees.
01:05:20And every
01:05:21conflict since
01:05:22the beginning
01:05:23of time has
01:05:24created refugees.
01:05:25of course.
01:05:27And
01:05:27it's just
01:05:32that people
01:05:33have a need
01:05:34in the West
01:05:35when they
01:05:35watch their
01:05:36news.
01:05:36It's kind
01:05:37of, you
01:05:38know, it's
01:05:38kind of become
01:05:39a bit of
01:05:39part of our
01:05:40entertainment
01:05:40system.
01:05:43When we're
01:05:43not on
01:05:44Netflix, we're
01:05:44on YouTube
01:05:45looking for,
01:05:46you know,
01:05:46what are we
01:05:48going to
01:05:48learn about
01:05:49the world?
01:05:49say, and
01:05:50people want
01:05:52to pick
01:05:52sides, they
01:05:53want to be
01:05:54for a
01:05:55side, rooting
01:05:55for somebody,
01:05:56and Lord
01:05:57knows the
01:05:58Israel-Palestine
01:05:59situation does
01:06:00not lend
01:06:01itself to that
01:06:01dichotomy
01:06:02whatsoever.
01:06:04Not so
01:06:04easily.
01:06:05I mean,
01:06:05you know,
01:06:06do we want
01:06:07to do the
01:06:08hard work
01:06:09of looking
01:06:10at facts
01:06:13and trying
01:06:15to make
01:06:16sense of
01:06:16them
01:06:17ourselves?
01:06:18And do
01:06:19we want
01:06:19to do the
01:06:21hard work
01:06:21of thinking
01:06:22for ourselves?
01:06:24The best
01:06:25advice I
01:06:27got when I
01:06:28started at
01:06:29the United
01:06:29Nations was
01:06:31from a
01:06:31British
01:06:33spy,
01:06:36essentially,
01:06:36character.
01:06:37but he
01:06:39told me,
01:06:40Michael,
01:06:40you're
01:06:40stepping
01:06:41into
01:06:41something
01:06:42that is
01:06:43much more
01:06:43complicated
01:06:44than you
01:06:44realize.
01:06:46There's
01:06:46huge amounts
01:06:48of, you
01:06:49know,
01:06:49there's a
01:06:49lot of
01:06:50money at
01:06:50play,
01:06:51and the
01:06:53regime we're
01:06:54dealing with
01:06:55in Iraq
01:06:55is a very
01:06:56tough one,
01:06:57so you
01:06:58have to be
01:06:58your own
01:06:59man,
01:06:59and you
01:07:01have to
01:07:01think for
01:07:01yourself,
01:07:02and you
01:07:03have to
01:07:03come to
01:07:03your own
01:07:04conclusions.
01:07:06And,
01:07:06you know,
01:07:06even when
01:07:08I'm
01:07:08wrong,
01:07:09I think
01:07:10that's
01:07:13fine.
01:07:14Like,
01:07:15it's okay
01:07:15to change
01:07:16your mind.
01:07:17It's okay
01:07:17to change
01:07:18your
01:07:19perspective
01:07:19or your
01:07:20impression
01:07:21of a
01:07:22certain
01:07:22social
01:07:23conflict,
01:07:24the more
01:07:25you learn
01:07:25about it.
01:07:27But choosing
01:07:27sides is
01:07:28not necessarily
01:07:29our job.
01:07:31I mean,
01:07:31it's not,
01:07:32not everything
01:07:33is a
01:07:33football
01:07:34match,
01:07:34you know,
01:07:35or a
01:07:36game,
01:07:36or a
01:07:36soccer
01:07:36match,
01:07:37rather.
01:07:39Not
01:07:39everything
01:07:40can be,
01:07:43sports is
01:07:43what we
01:07:44use in
01:07:44order to
01:07:45not go
01:07:45to war,
01:07:46but human
01:07:47beings are
01:07:48pretty aggressive
01:07:48animals,
01:07:50as we've
01:07:50learned from
01:07:51Yuval Harari's
01:07:54book,
01:07:55Sapiens.
01:07:55in sports,
01:08:00yes,
01:08:01we can
01:08:02build
01:08:03narratives
01:08:03that,
01:08:04you know,
01:08:05allow us
01:08:06to get
01:08:08the full
01:08:09sort of
01:08:11emotional
01:08:11experience
01:08:13we're looking
01:08:13for,
01:08:14because what
01:08:14are we
01:08:14looking for?
01:08:15We're looking
01:08:16for catharsis.
01:08:18We're looking
01:08:19for a moment
01:08:20where we
01:08:20understand it
01:08:21all,
01:08:22and where
01:08:22we can
01:08:23direct
01:08:23our
01:08:25emotions
01:08:25in,
01:08:27so we
01:08:27have a
01:08:28choice,
01:08:29either in
01:08:29a communal
01:08:30positive
01:08:31direction,
01:08:32which we
01:08:33call catharsis,
01:08:35or as
01:08:38hate.
01:08:39As long
01:08:40as we
01:08:40can pinpoint
01:08:41an object
01:08:43of hate
01:08:43that we
01:08:44can dehumanize,
01:08:46then as
01:08:47human beings
01:08:48we're a
01:08:49go.
01:08:50Before the
01:08:50genocide in
01:08:51Rwanda,
01:08:52for weeks
01:08:54on end
01:08:55on the
01:08:55radio,
01:08:58they
01:08:58started
01:08:59calling
01:09:00the
01:09:00Tutsis
01:09:01cockroaches,
01:09:05and they
01:09:06dehumanized
01:09:06them to
01:09:07the point
01:09:07where they
01:09:08were able
01:09:09to then
01:09:09eventually
01:09:10conduct a
01:09:13genocide
01:09:13that killed
01:09:14800,000
01:09:16people,
01:09:17mostly with
01:09:18machetes.
01:09:18I mean,
01:09:22imagine
01:09:22that kind
01:09:23of blood.
01:09:25And when
01:09:25you've
01:09:25written a
01:09:26book like
01:09:26mine,
01:09:27you have
01:09:27a lot
01:09:28of
01:09:28potential
01:09:28whistleblowers
01:09:29or people
01:09:30with stories
01:09:31that contact
01:09:32you,
01:09:33and they
01:09:33want to write
01:09:34their own
01:09:35stories,
01:09:35right?
01:09:36And so
01:09:37they're looking
01:09:37for advice
01:09:38and so on.
01:09:39And once
01:09:40a woman
01:09:40contacted me
01:09:41that had
01:09:42been smuggled
01:09:43out of
01:09:44Rwanda
01:09:44in a
01:09:45suitcase.
01:09:46I'm like,
01:09:47who fits
01:09:48in a
01:09:48suitcase?
01:09:49But anyway,
01:09:50she apparently
01:09:50did when
01:09:51she was
01:09:52young enough
01:09:53and for
01:09:5424 hours
01:09:56she spent
01:09:57breathing
01:09:58through a
01:09:58little hole
01:09:59in a
01:09:59suitcase
01:10:00and she
01:10:00was smuggled
01:10:01out and
01:10:02all of her
01:10:04family was
01:10:04killed.
01:10:06That's how
01:10:06they got
01:10:06Chagall out
01:10:07of Vichy,
01:10:08France.
01:10:10Sorry,
01:10:11you were
01:10:11saying?
01:10:12That's how
01:10:12they got
01:10:12Chagall out
01:10:13of France,
01:10:14Vichy,
01:10:14France in
01:10:15a crate.
01:10:17In a
01:10:18crate,
01:10:18yeah.
01:10:18Well,
01:10:19you know,
01:10:19it's a
01:10:20pretty
01:10:20traditional.
01:10:21We got
01:10:21a guy
01:10:21out of
01:10:22Iraq
01:10:22wrapped
01:10:23in a
01:10:24carpet.
01:10:28So one
01:10:29of our
01:10:29guys
01:10:29and the
01:10:32Iraqis
01:10:32wanted to
01:10:33put him
01:10:33in jail
01:10:33and he
01:10:35was a
01:10:35fellow
01:10:36Dane.
01:10:37So me
01:10:38and some
01:10:38other
01:10:38Danes
01:10:39who were
01:10:41part of
01:10:41the security
01:10:42team
01:10:42figured out
01:10:43a way
01:10:43to create
01:10:45an extra
01:10:46room in
01:10:46the back
01:10:47of a
01:10:47car and
01:10:48we just
01:10:49rolled him
01:10:49in a
01:10:49carpet,
01:10:50put him
01:10:50in there,
01:10:50got him
01:10:50out.
01:10:54Yeah.
01:10:55Yes,
01:10:55well,
01:10:55I think that's
01:10:56an excellent
01:10:56place to end.
01:10:57We've gone
01:10:58much,
01:10:58much over
01:10:59time,
01:10:59but it
01:10:59was so
01:11:00fascinating,
01:11:00it was
01:11:01entirely
01:11:01worth it.
01:11:02So let
01:11:05us know
01:11:06where we
01:11:07can find
01:11:08you online
01:11:09and keep
01:11:09up with
01:11:10you.
01:11:10Well,
01:11:12Michael
01:11:12Sousan,
01:11:13if you
01:11:13just write
01:11:14my name,
01:11:15usually my
01:11:15site will
01:11:16pop up
01:11:17and my
01:11:20next book
01:11:20will not
01:11:21be about
01:11:22my bumbling
01:11:23experiences as
01:11:25a young
01:11:25diplomat.
01:11:26It'll be
01:11:27about some
01:11:28observations I've
01:11:29been able to
01:11:30make about
01:11:31just what we
01:11:32were talking
01:11:32about,
01:11:33the mechanics
01:11:34of influence
01:11:35and how
01:11:37easily we
01:11:38get
01:11:39polarized
01:11:42when
01:11:43issues
01:11:44that can
01:11:45seem binary
01:11:46are presented
01:11:47to us.
01:11:49Excellent,
01:11:49thank you.
01:11:50Well,
01:11:51this has
01:11:51been an
01:11:52amazing
01:11:53conversation.
01:11:54This is
01:11:54one of
01:11:55those days
01:11:55that I
01:11:56love my
01:11:56job.
01:11:57So thank
01:11:59you so
01:11:59much for
01:11:59coming on
01:12:00the Cameron
01:12:00Journal
01:12:00podcast.
01:12:02It's such
01:12:02a pleasure.
01:12:04We have
01:12:04the same
01:12:05job,
01:12:05you know?
01:12:05That's all
01:12:18for this
01:12:18episode of
01:12:19the Cameron
01:12:19Journal
01:12:20podcast.
01:12:21Thank you
01:12:21so much
01:12:21for listening.
01:12:23Visit us
01:12:23online at
01:12:25CameronJournal.com.
01:12:26We're on
01:12:27Facebook,
01:12:28Twitter,
01:12:28and Instagram,
01:12:29and I love
01:12:30to talk to
01:12:30my followers
01:12:31and listeners,
01:12:32so please
01:12:32feel free
01:12:33to get
01:12:34us on
01:12:34social media
01:12:35at
01:12:35Cameron
01:12:35Cowan
01:12:36on Twitter,
01:12:37and we'll
01:12:37see you
01:12:38next time
01:12:38on the
01:12:39Cameron
01:12:39Journal
01:12:39podcast.
01:12:40We'll see you
01:12:43next time on the
01:12:44Cameron Journal podcast.
01:12:48Transcription by CastingWords
Recommended
3:16:36
|
Up next
47:58