- yesterday
The long-awaited review of the water sector in England and Wales has finally been published, and it proposes the most sweeping reforms since privatisation over 30 years ago.
Authored by Sir Jon Cunliffe, the report makes 88 recommendations, including scrapping the current regulator, Ofwat, and introducing stronger environmental regulation. Adam and Chris are joined by the BBC’s business editor, Simon Jack, to unpack the findings of the 465-page report.
Meanwhile, the UK and over 20 other nations have condemned the “horrifying” killing of hundreds of Gazans trying to get food from Israel's aid operations. The BBC’s Chief International Correspondent, Lyse Doucet, joins Adam to discuss the latest developments.
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Get in touch with Newscast by emailing newscast@bbc.co.uk or send us a whatsapp on +44 0330 123 9480.
New episodes released every day. If you're in the UK, for more News and Current Affairs podcasts from the BBC, listen on BBC Sounds: https://bit.ly/3ENLcS1
Subscribe here: http://bit.ly/1rbfUog
Authored by Sir Jon Cunliffe, the report makes 88 recommendations, including scrapping the current regulator, Ofwat, and introducing stronger environmental regulation. Adam and Chris are joined by the BBC’s business editor, Simon Jack, to unpack the findings of the 465-page report.
Meanwhile, the UK and over 20 other nations have condemned the “horrifying” killing of hundreds of Gazans trying to get food from Israel's aid operations. The BBC’s Chief International Correspondent, Lyse Doucet, joins Adam to discuss the latest developments.
You can now listen to Newscast on a smart speaker. If you want to listen, just say "Ask BBC Sounds to play Newscast”. It works on most smart speakers.
You can join our Newscast online community here: https://tinyurl.com/ne...
Get in touch with Newscast by emailing newscast@bbc.co.uk or send us a whatsapp on +44 0330 123 9480.
New episodes released every day. If you're in the UK, for more News and Current Affairs podcasts from the BBC, listen on BBC Sounds: https://bit.ly/3ENLcS1
Subscribe here: http://bit.ly/1rbfUog
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NewsTranscript
00:00Water quality has been going down, while water bills have been going up.
00:05The government asked an independent review to solve that dilemma in England and Wales,
00:10and today we got the answer.
00:12Which bits of it will the government actually implement?
00:14We'll discuss on this episode of the BBC's daily news podcast, Newscast.
00:21Hello, it's Adam in the Newscast studio.
00:23And it is Chris at Westminster.
00:25And shortly I'll be joined by Lise Doucette,
00:26because there's been lots of developments in the Israel-Gaza situation,
00:30including a very strongly worded statement from lots of foreign ministers,
00:34including David Lammy, the British Foreign Secretary.
00:36But we're first of all going to speak to Simon Jack, Business Minister.
00:39Hello, Simon.
00:39Hello, Adam. Hello, Chris.
00:40Hi.
00:41So we've been talking about the situation with the water industry,
00:44and particularly sewage and pollution in our water courses for a couple of years now.
00:49But it feels like the conversation took a big leap forward
00:52because we got this report by the Independent Review into the whole water industry.
00:58I mean, Simon, it's hard to sum up because it's hundreds and hundreds of pages long.
01:01But where would you like to start the story?
01:03Well, even Sir John sort of admits that this is a...
01:06John Cunliffe, who did the review.
01:07Sorry, Sir John Cunliffe, who did the review,
01:08former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England,
01:10says, look, you know, there are so many problems with the water industry
01:13that this is a complex and wide-ranging report,
01:17and it's hard to boil it down.
01:18But one of his most eye-catching suggestions,
01:21and it sounds a bit boring but is quite important,
01:24is that he thinks that the regulation of this sector
01:27has been poor, weak, ineffectual over the last 15, 20 years,
01:32and that actually the regulator touches all the different bits
01:35of the things that have gone wrong,
01:37from sewage and pollution to salaries and bonuses
01:40to high bills to, you know, you name it.
01:43There's been so many issues.
01:44And he says that actually by merging, if you like,
01:47the four existing regulators into sort of one body
01:51and eliminating off-what in the process,
01:54you'll get more joined-up regulation,
01:56you'll be able to prioritise things better,
01:58because at the moment all the regulators kind of have
02:00different priorities and they pull it, sometimes in cross-purposes.
02:03So that's the beginning of trying to fix it.
02:06But, you know, as he says, no one reform,
02:10however radical, can actually address all these issues.
02:13But I think one of the other points is that a lot of people
02:16support the idea of re-nationalising the water industry.
02:20That was one option not on the table.
02:22The government specified before it even started.
02:24That can't be one of your recommendations.
02:27I spoke to Steve Reid, the Environment Secretary today,
02:29and said, well, listen, lots of people support it.
02:31Why are you ruling it out?
02:32He said it would cost £100 billion.
02:34That's DEFRA numbers.
02:35And it would take many years to unpick all the ownership structures
02:39that have grown up since privatisation in the early 90s.
02:41And during that period of unpicking,
02:44things would only get worse because there'd be no investment.
02:46And that's what they've got to get in.
02:48The biggest problem, though, is this underinvestment,
02:51which has happened over many years.
02:52The water companies, by the way,
02:53are quite pleased to see the back of OffWatt too,
02:56but for very different reasons.
02:57They say that OffWatt hasn't allowed them to charge enough
03:00over the last few years.
03:02They say bills have been too low for too long.
03:04And now we're playing catch-up because we've got all these new challenges
03:07like population growth.
03:08And we've got data centres we've got to keep cool.
03:11And we've got new housing developments to build,
03:14big, big government priority.
03:16So we need to try and future-proof that,
03:18which is why we've seen these big increases in bills.
03:20And I think consumers will feel,
03:22I'm not going to feel any benefit for these new investments
03:24over the next few years,
03:25but I'm paying the price right now for the sins of the past.
03:28Yeah, lots to drill into there.
03:29And that was an admirable summary of what Sir John Cunliffe,
03:32the author of the report, said was like a Russian novel.
03:34So that was like a Russian novel podcast.
03:35Novel podcast you just did there.
03:38Chris, I mean, there's lots we could pick up on there,
03:40but just what's your take about what's been handed to the government today
03:44and which bits of it they're running with?
03:47Massive issue, I think, is the summary, I would say, politically.
03:50So we've just seen Steve Reid, the Environment Secretary,
03:53take questions for ages and ages and ages in the House of Commons
03:57for so, so many MPs on all sides.
04:02It's one of those examples.
04:03It kind of, I've used this example once or twice before,
04:06but it sort of, for me, overlaps with so many of the questions
04:11that are asked about the small boats situation, the channel.
04:15The reason being is that for so many people,
04:18it is that classic case study in failure,
04:22a classic case study in things not working,
04:26things not being as good as they used to be as people perceive it,
04:30and a sense of regulatory failure, of private sector failure,
04:34of government failure,
04:36and hence the review from Sir John Cunliffe
04:39looking at all kind of aspects of all of this.
04:42From the government's perspective, as Simon was mentioning,
04:45they decided in advance they didn't want to go over
04:49the whole argument around nationalisation,
04:52thinking it would be a distraction, it would be far too expensive,
04:54it would take too long, etc., etc.
04:55Way, way, way back when,
04:57seems like a million years ago politically.
04:59I know where you're going with this.
05:00Keir Starmer had suggested that water should be in public hands
05:04on that list of policies that he had
05:06when he was running for the Labour leadership.
05:08Now, plenty of those things have since been junked.
05:12He argues that, you know, the world has changed since then.
05:15He was also talking to a different electorate then,
05:17talking to the Labour Party rather than the wider country.
05:21So we shouldn't be surprised that that isn't something
05:23the government, you know, wanted to look at.
05:26It wasn't in their manifesto.
05:28They say they want to change the way the sector is regulated,
05:30etc., etc., rather than reopening all of that.
05:33What else would I say politically?
05:35Liberal Democrats today, very joyous.
05:37They say this is a win for them.
05:39They explicitly said in their manifesto
05:41that they wanted Off-Watt,
05:44the end of Off-Watt as the regulator.
05:47Their position is to have water companies
05:51as a public interest company,
05:52so they would still have a profit motive,
05:54but they would have the kind of public value
05:59baked in legally to how they were constituted.
06:04The Conservatives say having the private sector model
06:06is a good one.
06:09So there is that argument that some will make
06:11around, you know, whether a utility like water
06:14should be privatised, nationalised,
06:16or somewhere in between,
06:18but certainly amongst the major parties,
06:21going the whole hog in terms of nationalisation
06:23isn't something that's entertained.
06:24Nigel Farage, as you may have seen over the weekend,
06:26talking to Laura Koonsberg, the reform leader,
06:28talking about a substantial increase
06:31in the state's involvement in the sector,
06:33but still also involving private companies.
06:36Chris, another admiral summary.
06:38I should just say, Simon,
06:39we're talking about changes to the structure
06:42of the water industry,
06:43mainly in England here,
06:44some in Wales,
06:46but Scotland and Northern Ireland,
06:48they're considered quite separately.
06:49They're not part of this today.
06:50And it's quite an interesting point,
06:51because on this whole nationalisation
06:52versus non-national,
06:53versus privatisation,
06:55because what the water industry will say,
06:57and actually John Cunliffe himself,
06:58Sir John Cunliffe will say,
07:00is that I did actually look at this,
07:01even though I couldn't, you know,
07:03recommend renationalisation.
07:05Yeah, there's a funny form of words
07:06in his speech that he gave about,
07:08yeah, that he was sort of pushing
07:09against his terms of reference
07:11and sort of going underneath them
07:12and out the other side.
07:13Because what he said was,
07:13that I've looked around the world
07:15and in fact around the United Kingdom
07:17and Northern Ireland,
07:19where he basically said,
07:22look, there's lots of different models
07:23of ownership.
07:24Some, like in Wales,
07:25are run mutually,
07:27sort of the benefit of their members.
07:28Northern Ireland,
07:29it's run by the government,
07:31it's run by the Northern Ireland Assembly.
07:33And he said that there is no particular link
07:36between ownership structure
07:38and performance of the company.
07:41So some places in Scotland and Northern Ireland
07:42are just as bad as elsewhere.
07:44So you don't necessarily get a better result
07:47if you have public ownership.
07:50So he was able to make that point.
07:52So even though he wasn't allowed to recommend it,
07:53he kind of ticked it off
07:55on his list of things.
07:57And he also said that actually
07:58in the early days
07:59of the privatised water industry,
08:00there was a big improvement
08:02in the performance of the industry.
08:04There was fewer leaks
08:05and there was more kind of vision
08:07for how it should develop
08:09and what should be invested in it.
08:10He said it's only in the last
08:11sort of decade or so
08:13that it's flatlined.
08:14Probably since the financial crisis 2008, 2009,
08:18where basically governments
08:19and of different stripes actually,
08:21sort of kind of nudged the regulator
08:23to say we'd like you to keep bills
08:25as low as possible if you can.
08:26That's the priority.
08:27And throughout his report,
08:28there are comparisons
08:29with another regulator, Ofcom.
08:32And what Ofcom are credited with doing
08:34is that...
08:34Who do broadcasting communications.
08:36Yeah, the telecommunications industry.
08:38Is that when they had a dilemma
08:40between keeping bills low
08:41and prioritising getting, you know,
08:43better broadband
08:43and all that kind of stuff,
08:45they would put their thumb
08:45ever so slightly
08:46on the investment side of the scales
08:48and off what's saying
08:50that they weren't allowed to do that
08:51and they weren't encouraged to do that,
08:53which has left us with, you know,
08:5410 or 15 years.
08:56And some of these,
08:56I've been down these holes,
08:57you know, these pipes were laid
08:58in Queen Victoria's era,
09:00so do some of them.
09:01And they're saying
09:01when you look at that kind of underinvestment
09:03and you do have warmer, wetter weather,
09:07then you have much, much drier weather,
09:08then you have these deluges,
09:10they are trying to cope with stuff
09:11that they weren't designed for.
09:13What that means, though,
09:14is, you know,
09:15you're going to have this blitzkrieg
09:16of investment.
09:17Of the $100 billion,
09:18they say,
09:18they're going to spend
09:18over the next five years to 2030,
09:21only $44 billion of that is investment.
09:23But that will take time
09:24to take effect.
09:26So people will be paying
09:27much higher bills,
09:28which has already started,
09:2925%,
09:30roughly 30%
09:31in the next five years.
09:32They're going to see their bills go up
09:34before they see
09:35the fruits of that.
09:36And I think that's going to create
09:37that,
09:37this tension will persist.
09:39And Chris,
09:40in terms of what happens
09:41and how much the government
09:42is on the hook for this,
09:43there's a sort of similarity
09:44with the NHS in England
09:46and a big difference.
09:47So the similarity is
09:48we've got a new target
09:49from the government today
09:50about sewage leaks,
09:52which they are associating
09:54with themselves
09:55as opposed to saying
09:56it's for the industry to solve.
09:57They're saying,
09:58you can blame us
09:59for if this is not met
10:01or you can thank us
10:02if it is met.
10:03And that's the sort of
10:03the similarity with the NHS.
10:05The difference with the NHS
10:06is that Wes Streeting,
10:07the health secretary,
10:08abolished NHS England,
10:10kind of the quango
10:11that manages the NHS
10:12and is bringing all that
10:13into Whitehall.
10:15But actually here,
10:16the government's not saying
10:17we're going to take on
10:18responsibility directly
10:19for regulating it.
10:20There's going to be
10:21a new regulator.
10:21It's just going to be,
10:22they hope,
10:23a better one.
10:24Indeed so.
10:24And I think with both,
10:26if you like,
10:26you've got a political strategy,
10:28which is very sort of
10:30Keir Starmer-like,
10:31if you like,
10:32which is one of trying
10:33to evidence over time
10:35incremental improvement.
10:38So don't make wildly
10:40snazzy promises
10:41that might look good
10:42in the headline
10:43but then are impossible to keep.
10:44Instead, make ones
10:45that might still take
10:46quite a bit of effort
10:48to meet
10:48but might point to,
10:50if you get close to them
10:51or you achieve them
10:52or even exceed them
10:53by a bit,
10:54a substantial amount
10:55of incremental improvement
10:56that people might,
10:57so the theory goes,
10:59offer you some credit for
11:00if they can be delivered.
11:03Albeit, as you say,
11:04via two different mechanisms
11:06of, if you like,
11:08administration and regulation,
11:10albeit with the same
11:11political consequences
11:13in either failing to
11:15or achieving
11:16the delivery
11:17of what they're hoping for.
11:18Just a quick word
11:19on setting the new targets.
11:20They said they were going
11:21to halve pollution incidents
11:22by 2030.
11:24Probably at the level
11:25two years ago,
11:262024.
11:27Well, you see,
11:28there's a bit of
11:28sleight of hand
11:29going on here.
11:30The original target
11:31was a 45% reduction
11:32from a 2021 base.
11:34They're now saying
11:35a 50% reduction
11:36from a 2024 base.
11:37But in 2024,
11:38the results were
11:39absolutely appalling.
11:40So if you like,
11:41it was the high,
11:42dirty watermark.
11:43Although in the last year
11:44they have gone up by 60%.
11:45Well, that's what I'm saying.
11:46No, that's what they're,
11:47when they will keep.
11:48Oh, I see.
11:49Oh, right.
11:49So, I mean,
11:50I already got the wrong year
11:51for that we're in now.
11:52So I shouldn't be in charge of it.
11:53So basically what they're saying
11:54is let's take
11:55the worst year ever
11:56and use that as the baseline
11:58for our 50% reduction.
11:59And what that means
12:00that in 2026, 2027,
12:03that you could actually
12:04get higher spills
12:05than they were originally planning
12:06and yet they could still
12:07be on target
12:07for their new target
12:08by simply resetting
12:09the baseline.
12:10This reminds me
12:11of kind of Treasury
12:11sleight of hand, actually.
12:12Well, and listeners
12:13to Friday's newscast
12:14when we were talking
12:15about the latest
12:16pollution statistics
12:17will know that
12:17one of the reasons
12:18last year
12:19was a particularly
12:20bad year for spills
12:21was to do with the weather.
12:22So if you have
12:23a very wet year,
12:24because we have
12:25this combined sewer system
12:26where rain and poo
12:29goes down the same pipe,
12:31ultimately,
12:31if you have a very wet year
12:32you have a very bad
12:33spills situation.
12:35Yeah, I mean,
12:35I think you're absolutely
12:37right, Simon.
12:37We've absolutely
12:38got to kind of point
12:39to any sort of
12:40sleights of hand
12:41or creative kind of
12:42accounting with benchmarking
12:44of particular promises.
12:45But I think in the end,
12:46from their perspective,
12:46you know,
12:46from Steve Reed's perspective,
12:48unless enough people
12:49feel like things
12:50are substantially different
12:51and people in their own heads
12:52will set, you know,
12:53not so much a spreadsheet
12:54benchmark as just a benchmark
12:56of does it feel better
12:57than, you know,
12:58a certain period
12:59in the past ago,
13:01unless it's, you know,
13:02unless a decent number
13:03of folk feel that things
13:03are heading in the right direction,
13:05then they're not likely
13:07to get much political credit
13:08for it out of the all.
13:09Right, we've got a question
13:10that was sent in
13:11by newscaster Mike
13:13who posted it originally
13:14on the Discord.
13:15What's the difference
13:16between the old regulator
13:18and the new regulator
13:19and are the same people
13:21going to be in charge of it?
13:23Simon?
13:24So the difference is that
13:26in the old days...
13:26So we don't actually know yet.
13:27Well, we had four
13:29different regulators.
13:30You've got the Environment Agency,
13:31you've got the
13:31Drinking Water Inspectorate,
13:33there's a bit of
13:33Nature England involved
13:34and you've got,
13:35of course,
13:35OffWatt.
13:36Now the responsibilities
13:37for water,
13:38which were in the Environment Agency,
13:40will be taken out of that
13:41and put into this
13:41one new regulator.
13:43OffWatt will be abolished.
13:44Drinking Water Inspector
13:45will be folded in as well.
13:46Environment Agency
13:47will survive in a form
13:48to do its other things.
13:49As for who's going
13:50to be running it,
13:51the question is,
13:51you know,
13:51is everyone just going
13:52to get a new business card
13:54and life go on the same?
13:55It's a bit like,
13:56you know,
13:56you get a new builder,
13:57you know,
13:57same people,
13:58different van.
13:58We don't know
14:01the answer there.
14:02I would be amazed
14:03if there wasn't
14:04a change in leadership
14:04at OffWatt
14:05or, you know,
14:06whether the current
14:07leadership of OffWatt
14:08survive into the current.
14:10I think you've got
14:11to sort of clear
14:11the decks a little bit
14:12and indicate change.
14:15But, you know,
14:16we just don't know yet
14:18how these bodies
14:19will interact.
14:20There's talk about,
14:21you know,
14:21having regional
14:22water planning boards,
14:24putting scientific people
14:25on there to talk about,
14:26you know,
14:26health officials
14:27on those to think about,
14:29you know,
14:29swimming safety
14:30and all that kind of stuff.
14:31So there's a lot of detail
14:32to be worked out.
14:33I think the political point,
14:35if I could stray
14:35into Chris's territory
14:36for a second.
14:37Into his water course.
14:38Into his water course.
14:41But not like a purge.
14:42Trudge through his puddle.
14:44Like a really healthy
14:45wild swimmer
14:46going into a different river.
14:47If I could just tiptoe
14:48through his puddle.
14:50It's,
14:50I mean,
14:50the point is,
14:51is that what the government
14:52will,
14:53with some justification,
14:54be able to say
14:54is that we heard you,
14:55we da da da.
14:57We,
14:57you know,
14:57they could not be seen
14:59to abolish
14:59their own independent,
15:01an independent regulator.
15:02They couldn't be seen
15:03to wade in
15:04and overrule them.
15:05So you get an independent
15:06commission to make
15:07a bunch of recommendations
15:08and they in a way
15:08get to do your dirty work
15:10for you.
15:10And that,
15:11and the government
15:12will be able to say,
15:12we heard everyone
15:13was really angry.
15:14We commissioned a report.
15:16We're doing something
15:17about it.
15:17End of story.
15:18Let's move on
15:18and see how we get on.
15:19And also I bet
15:20that new water regulator,
15:21whatever it's called,
15:23suggestions to newscast
15:24at bbc.co.uk
15:25will have some people
15:27maybe from the
15:27Financial Conduct Authority,
15:29from the financial regulators,
15:30because John Cunliffe,
15:31who,
15:31as you said,
15:32used to be at the Bank of England,
15:33has said,
15:33actually,
15:34this is such a much more
15:35financialized world now.
15:36You need people
15:37with experience
15:38of regulating
15:39things that are like banks.
15:40And the other thing
15:41that the water industry
15:43was very keen
15:43was saying that
15:44one of the things
15:45that Ofwot did
15:46was they were basically
15:46creating their minds
15:48and their economic spreadsheets,
15:49the perfect water company
15:51or how a water company
15:52should behave,
15:52and it was a one-size-fits-all.
15:54And if you don't fit that,
15:55whatever,
15:56then you get fined
15:57pretty heavily.
15:58They're saying that,
15:59yeah,
15:59actually,
16:00the individual needs
16:01of different companies
16:02are very different,
16:03whether it's on geography,
16:04are they short of water,
16:05are they got a rapidly
16:07growing population,
16:07like in Cambridgeshire,
16:08for example.
16:09Each one has different needs.
16:11And there's a section,
16:12a really interesting one,
16:13in Sir John's report,
16:15which says that,
16:16do we need to have
16:17a turnaround regime?
16:19Do we get to the point
16:19where it doesn't serve
16:20the public interest
16:21to keep bashing companies
16:23when they're trying
16:24to improve their performance
16:25and turnaround?
16:26Don't kick them
16:27while they're down,
16:27fine them more.
16:28You're only taking money
16:29out of the kitty
16:29to fix the things
16:30they got fined for
16:31in the first place.
16:32A lot of people,
16:33people, for example,
16:33the Thames situation,
16:36the creditors there
16:37trying to put together
16:38a rescue plan,
16:38asking for a bit of leniency.
16:40They took a lot
16:41of comfort from that.
16:42I think that will be
16:43a big question
16:43for Steve Reid.
16:45Are you prepared
16:45to cut some special deals
16:47for companies
16:48that seem to be
16:49in a doom loop or not?
16:50Initial reaction was that
16:52no one gets a special deal.
16:54But anyway,
16:54they certainly took comfort
16:55that Lisa John
16:56had recognised the fact
16:57that maybe
16:58you take a special view
17:00on companies
17:00which are in really
17:01dire trouble.
17:02Very interesting.
17:02Simon, thank you very much.
17:04Right.
17:05Lisa's here.
17:06Hello, Lisa.
17:07Really nice
17:08to be with you.
17:09And since
17:10our listeners
17:12and viewers
17:12are not going to see
17:13your shoes and socks,
17:15let me compliment you
17:16on your socks.
17:17They are the American flag,
17:18I think.
17:18Yeah.
17:19Stars and stripes.
17:20Just jazzy socks.
17:22Actually, people watching
17:23on YouTube,
17:23if I was to sort of
17:24do an amazing yoga,
17:26they might think
17:27they're on AmeriCast.
17:28And it's such,
17:29I was really looking forward
17:30to actually sitting next
17:32to not just you,
17:33but Chris Mason.
17:34But he's in his remote,
17:37his remote splendor.
17:37He's in the Westminster cupboard.
17:38My little Westminster cupboard, yeah.
17:40He will not be in the cupboard
17:41for very long.
17:42So just before he dashes off,
17:43Chris,
17:44quite a dramatic moment
17:45in the House of Commons
17:46this evening,
17:47just before we started
17:48recording this episode,
17:49where David Lammy,
17:50the Foreign Secretary,
17:50had some very strong words
17:52for Israel for how it's dealing
17:53with the humanitarian situation.
17:55Some people might say
17:56causing the humanitarian situation
17:57in Gaza.
17:59Yeah.
17:59So he said,
18:00he was on his feet
18:01at about six o'clock
18:02on Monday evening.
18:03He described it as
18:05inhumane,
18:06dangerous,
18:07denying Gazans
18:08human dignity
18:09and a grotesque spectacle.
18:12And then this accompanied
18:13the statements,
18:14the audible statement
18:17from the Foreign Secretary
18:18at the dispatch box
18:19with a written statement
18:21that he and the foreign ministers
18:24of 26 countries
18:26and indeed the EU
18:27have signed,
18:29which echoes
18:30a similar message.
18:32The war in Gaza must end.
18:33Now it says
18:34the Israeli government's
18:35aid delivery model
18:36is dangerous,
18:36fuels instability
18:37and deprives Gazans
18:38of human dignity.
18:41and I think it represents
18:43the latest stepping up
18:45with an element
18:47of international coordination
18:48in the language
18:50that countries
18:51are willing to say
18:52explicitly out loud
18:54in public
18:54about how Israel
18:56is conducting itself.
18:58And Chris,
18:58I'll let you go
18:59while we listen
18:59to some of that statement
19:00from David Lammy.
19:01It's a grotesque spectacle,
19:04wrecking a terrible
19:05human cost.
19:07Almost a thousand
19:08civilians have been
19:09killed since May,
19:11seeking aid,
19:13including a hundred,
19:15Mr Deputy Speaker,
19:16this weekend alone.
19:18There are near daily reports
19:19of Israeli troops
19:20opening fire
19:22on people
19:22to access food.
19:25Israeli jets
19:26have hit women
19:26and children
19:27waiting for a health
19:29clinic to open.
19:30an Israeli drone
19:31has struck down
19:32children filling
19:33water containers,
19:35which Israeli officials
19:36blamed on a technical error.
19:40Hamas is, of course,
19:41contributing to the chaos
19:42and taking advantage of it.
19:44But I utterly condemn
19:46the killing of civilians
19:48seeking to meet
19:49their basic needs.
19:52And Lise,
19:53just remind us,
19:54what is it about
19:55the new system
19:56for delivering aid
19:57in Gaza
19:57that so many governments
19:59are now objecting to?
20:00What is it about
20:01the setup
20:01that they see
20:02is so bad?
20:03Well, it's called
20:03the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
20:06It was created
20:07by Israel
20:08and the United States
20:09together.
20:10And it was quite clearly
20:11an effort to bypass
20:13the UN
20:13and other aid agencies.
20:15Ostensibly,
20:16the rationale
20:16was that
20:17the bulk of the aid
20:18being distributed
20:19by aid agencies
20:20was being diverted
20:22by Hamas.
20:23And all of the aid agencies
20:24that we ever spoke to
20:25said,
20:26well,
20:26you know,
20:26we can't assure you
20:28of 100%,
20:29but as far as
20:30we're concerned,
20:30that is not
20:31a major issue.
20:33How has this
20:33Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
20:35been described
20:35as a death trap?
20:36That in order
20:37to reach
20:38one of the hubs
20:39and at any one time
20:40there could be
20:40one hub operating,
20:42four hubs operating,
20:43mind you,
20:44don't forget,
20:44there's a population
20:451.2 million people.
20:47They have to go
20:48through areas,
20:49military zones
20:49controlled by
20:50Israeli forces.
20:51They have to make
20:52a mad dash
20:53to try to get aid,
20:54which is why
20:55you have seen
20:56those scenes
20:56of chaos.
20:58And there's no real
20:59organized distribution system.
21:01If you contrast
21:01to the way
21:02the UN
21:02and other aid agencies
21:03distribute,
21:04it's community-based.
21:05They have hundreds
21:06of distribution sites.
21:08They are far away
21:09from any military
21:10locations
21:11of the Israeli
21:12Defense Forces.
21:13So it doesn't have
21:14that kind of a risk.
21:15And of course,
21:16there have been
21:16accusations
21:17of people trying
21:18to grab
21:19as much food
21:20as they can
21:20to sell it
21:21on the black market.
21:22But people
21:23are starving.
21:24Israel continues
21:25to say
21:25there is no starvation.
21:27It is what we hear
21:28daily from the
21:29Gazan doctors,
21:30from aid agencies,
21:31from the images
21:32we see on social media.
21:33Gazans do not
21:35have enough food.
21:37And this system
21:37is not one at scale.
21:39It is not set up
21:40to be a kind
21:41of a system
21:42that can meet
21:43all of the aids,
21:44all of the growing
21:45needs of Gazans
21:46in a very safe way.
21:48I mean,
21:48you talked about
21:49some of the incidents
21:50and David Lammy
21:50talked about
21:51some of the incidents
21:51we've seen play out
21:52over the last few weeks.
21:53But the emphasis
21:54there has been
21:55on the last few weeks.
21:56So why are these
21:57foreign ministers
21:57saying this today
21:58rather than last Monday
22:00or the Monday before
22:01or the Monday before that?
22:02What do you think
22:02has changed?
22:03It's not the first time
22:04they've issued
22:05a strongly worded statement,
22:06but certainly
22:06the numbers of countries
22:07which have grouped
22:09together to issue
22:10the statement
22:11using words like
22:12grotesque,
22:13suffering of Palestinians,
22:14reaching new depths,
22:16because I think
22:16the images
22:18are unavoidable.
22:20The situation
22:21is unavoidable.
22:23And bear in mind
22:23that it's not just
22:24the outsiders
22:25who are saying
22:27this kind of thing.
22:28Today the head
22:28of the Israeli
22:29Defense Forces
22:31made it clear
22:32they simply don't have
22:33enough reservists
22:34to fight this war.
22:35Former prime ministers
22:36of Israel,
22:37former spy chiefs
22:38are saying,
22:38why is this war
22:39continuing?
22:40You've heard on this program
22:41the former prime minister,
22:43Ehud Olmert,
22:43saying that Israel
22:44is committing war crimes.
22:46You've heard about
22:47the anguish
22:47and the agony
22:48of the families
22:51of the hostages,
22:52saying that every day
22:53longer that this war
22:55is being fought
22:56puts the lives
22:57of our loved ones
22:57at risk.
22:58Everyone is asking
22:59and for a year now
23:00Israeli military chiefs
23:01have been saying
23:02we've done everything
23:03we could
23:04and yet here we are today
23:05in the 20-month
23:06of war,
23:07Israel has opened
23:08a new front
23:08in Deir al-Bala,
23:09the central belt
23:10of the Gaza Strip
23:11which has not had
23:13evacuation orders before.
23:14All right,
23:15just explain
23:15the significance
23:16of that development.
23:17So I think
23:18our listeners now,
23:20you've looked at this
23:22throughout the months,
23:24the 21 months
23:25of this war
23:26but Israel announces
23:27to the residents
23:29of neighbourhoods,
23:30sometimes of very large
23:32swathes of cities,
23:32we're coming in,
23:33you have to leave.
23:34Sometimes they give
23:35very little announcement.
23:37At this point,
23:3721 months on,
23:38they say,
23:39where do we go?
23:40The UN says
23:42nearly 90%
23:43of Gaza
23:44has been under
23:45an evacuation order
23:47which basically says
23:48you have to get out of here
23:49which means that
23:50this area
23:51which hasn't had
23:52an evacuation order
23:53until the early hours
23:54of this morning,
23:55it was home
23:56to thousands
23:57of Gazans
23:58who had been displaced
23:59time and again
24:01from other areas.
24:02Then they get this,
24:03you know,
24:03six residential blocks
24:05told to move
24:06within hours,
24:07not sure where to go.
24:08They're told to go
24:09to Muasi
24:09which is a densely populated
24:12miserable area
24:14on the Mediterranean
24:15where people
24:16are crowded in there
24:17to try to get aid.
24:19So many are asking
24:20why is Israel
24:21doing this now?
24:22Is it because
24:22that they have
24:24a military
24:25mass commander
24:26in sight,
24:26they need to go
24:27after someone?
24:28Is it because
24:29those reports
24:30are to be believed
24:31that they are
24:32now at last
24:33despite all the
24:34false dawns
24:34close to a ceasefire
24:36that we hear
24:37that Israel
24:38has accepted
24:38most of the conditions?
24:40Hamas has accepted
24:41most of the conditions?
24:42President Trump
24:43is saying
24:43I want to deal
24:44Oh and this is one of those
24:44moments that often happens
24:46before it's ceasefire
24:47one side tries to just
24:48push as far as they can
24:49for the last moment.
24:50But the other thing is
24:51you know if you
24:52let us take
24:53the harshest critics
24:55of this war
24:56and the criticism
24:57is based on the statements
24:58of many of the
25:00far right wing members
25:01of Prime Minister
25:01Netanyahu's cabinet
25:02and even in some
25:03of the statements
25:04by Prime Minister
25:04Netanyahu himself
25:06that they're trying
25:07to move the Palestinians
25:08to the furthest corner
25:10southern corner
25:11of the Gaza Strip
25:12even
25:13and as a government
25:14minister said recently
25:15they want to create
25:16what they called
25:16humanitarian city
25:18in that area
25:20so that Palestinians
25:21are pushed there
25:22in unlivable conditions
25:24which means that
25:25they will increase
25:26the chances
25:26that more Palestinians
25:27will say
25:28enough
25:28I'm leaving
25:29because we do know
25:31that President Trump
25:32and Prime Minister Netanyahu
25:33have been speaking
25:34to African countries
25:36to Middle Eastern countries
25:37to take more
25:38to take Gazans
25:39who want to leave
25:40the Gaza Strip
25:41and that
25:42many in the far right
25:45of Prime Minister Netanyahu's ranks
25:47have said
25:47we want them all to leave
25:48and of course
25:49President Trump himself
25:50although he hasn't
25:50talked about it recently
25:52talked about a Middle Eastern
25:53Riviera
25:54property development
25:55many people
25:56who come and live there
25:57which of course
25:58is
25:58the lawyers will tell you
26:00is ethnic cleansing
26:01a war crime
26:02to forcibly displace people
26:03so a lot is happening now
26:05that statement
26:08won't be listened to
26:09by Prime Minister Netanyahu
26:10he hasn't in the past
26:10he isn't going to now
26:12but what is President Trump
26:13saying to him
26:14is the end of this war
26:15or is there
26:17let me be clear
26:17is a ceasefire
26:19now in the offing
26:20a release of hostages
26:22and exchange for prisoners
26:22and then after that
26:24is even
26:24more dangerous
26:26the more question
26:27more fraught with risk
26:28and questions is
26:29what next
26:30what is the future
26:32of Gaza
26:32will Palestinians
26:33be allowed to rebuild
26:34who will rebuild Gaza
26:35who will run Gaza
26:36all of these big
26:37big questions
26:38huge
26:39but in terms of
26:40the statement
26:41from the foreign ministers
26:42today
26:42I mean what sort of
26:43reaction has Israel
26:44given to that
26:45because we're in a
26:46sort of diplomatic
26:47tit for tat now
26:48they are
26:48but they immediately
26:49rejected it
26:49and as with all
26:50the other statements
26:51as it plays
26:52in Hamas's hands
26:54which I think
26:55they would all say
26:55to a person
26:56that's not the case
26:58you know
26:58their statement
26:59we just heard
26:59they say yes
27:00sometimes Hamas
27:00does take advantage
27:01of the chaos
27:02yes sometimes
27:03it is Hamas
27:04which opens fires
27:04yes they are to
27:07blame for some
27:07but the overwhelming
27:09pressure
27:11that is the
27:12thrust of the statement
27:13is that Israel
27:15is responsible
27:16for the deepening
27:17suffering of Gazans
27:18that this
27:19aid
27:20new aid distribution
27:21this drip drip
27:22approach
27:22is the word
27:23that they use
27:24the drip feeding
27:25Gazans
27:25is simply not working
27:27and there has
27:28to be
27:29another way
27:30forward
27:30Lise help me out
27:32and this is maybe
27:32a difficult question
27:33to answer
27:33because it's about
27:34something that
27:34hasn't happened
27:35and is rumoured
27:35but this morning
27:36it felt like
27:37in the air
27:38there was some
27:38speculation
27:39that maybe the UK
27:40was going to go
27:41to the next level
27:42in terms of
27:43recognising
27:43a Palestinian state
27:45like not just
27:46as a concept
27:47that maybe
27:47could exist
27:48one day
27:48or that maybe
27:49everyone might
27:50want to
27:50work towards
27:51but an actual
27:53country
27:54that they could
27:54recognise now
27:55what's your
27:56take on that
27:57well they have
27:59always said
28:00and it was
28:00mentioned again
28:01in the House
28:02of Commons
28:03today
28:03is that
28:03it has to be
28:04part of a process
28:05so you have to
28:05do it at the
28:06right time
28:07so that it's
28:07not just
28:08symbolic
28:09because you
28:09had countries
28:10like Ireland
28:11and Spain
28:12and Norway
28:12adding to
28:13the more than
28:14150 countries
28:15which have
28:15long ago
28:16recognised
28:17the Palestinians
28:17and said
28:18it's simply
28:18Western countries
28:19which are
28:20lagging behind
28:22so we haven't
28:23had a very
28:24strong sense
28:25that it was
28:25going to be
28:26imminent
28:26there was
28:27to have been
28:28a conference
28:28in New York
28:29sponsored by
28:30France and
28:30Saudi Arabia
28:31that was
28:32scuppered
28:32by the
28:33attacks on
28:33Iran
28:34which totally
28:35changed of
28:35course
28:36the playing
28:36field
28:37everyone was
28:37then focused
28:38on what
28:38was happening
28:38on Iran
28:39there are
28:40reports that
28:40another
28:41conference
28:41is also
28:42being organised
28:43because Arab
28:44states certainly
28:45want this war
28:46to end as
28:46well
28:46and they
28:47are
28:47never mind
28:48the statements
28:48they are
28:49really important
28:51allies for
28:51President Trump
28:52and they are
28:52whispering in
28:53his ear
28:54saying you
28:54know you
28:54got to
28:55find a
28:55way to
28:56get more
28:57aid into
28:57Gaza
28:58end the
28:58war
28:58bring the
28:59hostages
29:00home
29:00I think
29:02I'm not
29:03sure when
29:04the timing
29:04will be
29:05whether or
29:05not now
29:06I think
29:06it would
29:06just be
29:07again
29:07dismissed
29:07by the
29:08Israelis
29:09as playing
29:09into
29:10Hamas's
29:11hands
29:11rewarding
29:12Hamas
29:13will it
29:13just be
29:14symbolic
29:14at some
29:15point they
29:16will have
29:16to join
29:17because I
29:18think that's
29:18where the
29:19general
29:20momentum
29:22is
29:22but choosing
29:23the moment
29:24is important
29:25especially
29:25for Britain
29:26you've discussed
29:26this endlessly
29:27on the
29:27program
29:28that Keir
29:28Starmer's
29:28approach
29:29to dealing
29:30with the
29:31United States
29:31is to work
29:32with them
29:32not against
29:33them
29:34believing that
29:34they have
29:34to be
29:35and we
29:35hear from
29:35President
29:36Trump
29:36it seems
29:36to be
29:37working
29:37that he
29:38regards
29:38the United
29:40Kingdom
29:40that special
29:41relationship
29:41as it's
29:42called
29:42standing
29:42shoulder
29:43to
29:43shoulder
29:43and I
29:44think he
29:44would want
29:44to coordinate
29:45with the
29:45United States
29:46the United
29:46States
29:46won't
29:47although
29:47there was
29:47discussion
29:48during
29:48President Biden's
29:49administration
29:50that they
29:50would also
29:51recognize
29:52a Palestinian
29:52state
29:53when the
29:53moment
29:54was right
29:54is the
29:55moment
29:55right now
29:56when there's
29:56not a
29:56ceasefire
29:57when there's
29:58a lot of
29:58other issues
30:00you know
30:00when leaders
30:00talk to each
30:01other
30:01they have
30:02talking points
30:02and you have
30:03to go for
30:03the most
30:03important
30:04things
30:04at any
30:04one time
30:05Lise
30:05thanks for
30:06bringing
30:06us
30:06up
30:06to
30:06date
30:07thank
30:07you
30:08always
30:08good
30:08to
30:08be
30:08with
30:08you
30:09Adam
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