- 2 days ago
Justice On Trial Season 1 Episode 1
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Short filmTranscript
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21:48or occupation i work with the united states state department and with respect to that profession sir
21:54tell the court if you would what kind of training you've received and what it's encompassed i received
21:59extensive training in the areas of diplomatic immunity as it was afforded in the vienna treaty
22:05of 1961. can you explain what that is well diplomatic immunity was established so that
22:11sending states could send their diplomats and be assured that they would be free from criminal and
22:16civil prosecution of the states let me ask you this how many diplomats and their families do we
22:21have abroad representing the united states upwards of 13 000. and we are concerned with upholding the
22:29provisions of the vienna convention for protection of those diplomats is that right that is correct
22:35now in this particular case the nation of zimbabwe itself has sent the state department a request to
22:44have the child returned to the father and return to the country of origin is that correct that is
22:50correct and does diplomatic immunity trump this court's decision to keep this child in protective
22:58custody it does why is that well because the thing is we need to protect our diplomats around the world
23:05so hypothetically if our foreign diplomats were say in a country that enforced headscarves
23:13for women and uh one of our diplomats or other family members were to go out without headscarf they
23:19could be arrested and prosecuted and we don't want that so we have to afford the same here we can't
23:24break the rules this was agreed to in 1961 in the vienna treaty and we need to adhere to it no further
23:30questions any questions oh yes your honor mr davison you first got involved in this case by
23:37receiving a call from the zimbabwe mission notifying you that the son of one of their
23:44diplomats was abducted that is correct and you of course as a representative from the state department
23:49wanted to find out what happened why was this child removed yes you conducted your own investigation
23:55right that's correct and you found that he was removed for his own safety because the boy had
24:00accused his father of stripping him down naked and beating him over the naked back with an extension
24:07cord you learned that to be the case right yes i did and you found that those child protective workers
24:13felt that his life was in danger if he continued to live with his father and that's why they removed
24:18him yes and you further found that the mission of zimbabwe demanded that we immediately release him
24:27back to his family and if he didn't they reserved the right to retaliate against our diplomats that is
24:36correct you got a crisis on your hand yes we do your job how do we deal with this and you found out
24:42you had options one of those options was you can expel the diplomat problem is with that option you
24:48expel the diplomat you got to send the child back to the home of the man who'd been brutalizing right
24:54yes but you had another option you could have simply asked zimbabwe to waive immunity in this case
25:03yes had you asked and they gave you immunity you could have kept this child in foster care right that's
25:12correct so we never even asked them to waive immunity did we now in fact the representative
25:20from zimbabwe was specifically asked what would happen if this judge gives them what you're asking
25:28for and returns this child to zimbabwe what the representative from zimbabwe said when specifically asked
25:37whether terence would go back to the man who hung him up and whipped him they said no comment correct
25:45the truth is that if this court gives you what you're asking for and sends this boy back to zimbabwe
25:52you really don't know what's going to happen to him no thank you witness is excused thank you next
25:58witness please i would call foy karamba to the stand your honor you may inquire sir thank you your
26:09honor all right mr karamba what is your current profession or occupation sir i am a diplomat
26:16representing the republic of zimbabwe do you have children i do how many three and their ages i have a
26:23nine-year-old son and two daughters ages seven and three and your boy and your older daughter they go
26:30to school in queens is that correct that is correct and tell me on december 1st were you called to come
26:39down to the school yes and when you got to the school were you questioned yes and what kind of
26:47questions were asked of you they asked me if i knew how my son got these uh bruises on his face and
26:55they asked me if i beat my son and what was your response to that question my response was no and
27:02did they in fact tell you that terence stated to them my father beats me yes do you discipline your son
27:11yes i spanked my son on his rear end above his clothing so they let you take the children home
27:21with you is that right yes they did now 10 days later did you get another call yes and on december
27:2811th were you again confronted by the school with allegations of additional child abuse yes and what
27:36did you say i told them that i did not beat my son and no one between december 1st when the school
27:45allegedly heard terence say my dad beats me and they saw bruises on his face no law enforcement no
27:53police officer came knocking and saying we are here to investigate child abuse allegation no and cps didn't
28:02come down either did they no they did not on december 11th did things change was your son taken away
28:08from you yes have you since demanded the city of new york to return your son to you yes now in your
28:16culture sir does that culture allow and permit corporal punishment of a child yes in what way you
28:24can do a number of things but spanking a child above the clothing is one of those methods and were you
28:31in fact disciplined in that matter by your father growing up yes i was and when you discipline him
28:38do you tie him up to a pipe in your basement and then whip him with an electrical cord no do you
28:45believe sir that if terence is returned to you he is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death
28:54if he's returned to you not at all no further questions you may inquire sir mr crowbar did i hear that
29:00right that you did nothing more than spank your son terence over the clothes in the behind yes this
29:07is where he was struck yes so now you've heard the testimony of his teacher who said that he observed
29:14cuts and bruising to his face right yes you've heard the testimony of taylor neil who testified that
29:23terence said you caused those injuries to his face yes and you've also heard the testimony
29:30of miss gilbert the social worker who testified that terence told her that you strung him up
29:37naked down in the basement and beat him with an extension cord right yes but that's all the pack
29:43of lies i believe it will be all lies yes so your nine-year-old son lied to his teacher when he said
29:52that you beat him unfortunately terence does lie now you talked to this court about corporal punishment
29:58you said in your country this is a method for disciplining children yes so you believe that
30:05this corporal punishment this method of discipline worked for you right yes my father would use
30:11corporal punishment he would spank me with a belt and i turned out just fine when you say you turned
30:18out just fine you're a successful diplomat right yes but you're also a man who beats his own children
30:23aren't you i discipline my children you're also a man whose own kid would rather jump out of a moving
30:30car than come back and live with you right i have never seen my son jump out of a car and i do not
30:35believe this behavior now as somebody who has only spanked his son over a closed behind with a belt
30:46your honor can i please approach absolutely can you tell me mr karamba how your son got those
31:00at this time i'd like to invoke my diplomatic immunity counselor your honor i believe he has
31:06a right to do that at any stage of the proceedings well mr backman he does have that right he chose to
31:12waive that right when you called him as a witness if he now chooses as a result of evidence that he
31:17has seen to invoke his right that's fine but i'm going to strike his entire testimony in that case
31:23your honor i'd like to ask for a five-minute recess allow me sufficient time to talk to my client
31:28absolutely thank you let me explain what just happened here floyd karamba declined to answer
31:37certain questions on cross-examination invoking diplomatic immunity but the law doesn't allow
31:44you to pick and choose what questions you will and will not answer if he decides to invoke diplomatic
31:50status his entire testimony would be stricken let's see what he decides
31:57house look your honor i've spoken to my client at this point he advises me out of the love for his
32:02children and the fact that he wants his son back he is waiving his diplomatic status so that he can
32:09get his child back fine mr mentor you want to ask a question again yes you've seen the picture i have
32:15i ask you again mr karamba how did terence get those whip marks what happens in my house stays in my house
32:22are you now owning up to what you did what happens in my house stays in my house you did whip that boy
32:28sir what happens in my house in my house terence wasn't lying you are objection argumentative yeah
32:36the last part is stricken all right mr karamba you can take your seat
32:44mr menser would you like to make closing arguments sir thank you your honor the reality here is there
32:50really is no dispute over what happened this man floyd karamba battered his child he abused his child he
32:56placed his child's life in danger his health and safety are in jeopardy were he to be sent back to
33:03zimbabwe and the state department knows this yet the state department would rather maintain their cozy
33:09relationship with the country of zimbabwe by not even asking for a waiver of immunity that's all we're
33:16asking here for is for them to start doing their job and ask zimbabwe for a waiver of immunity here
33:24so that this man can be prosecuted and more importantly that this child can be protected
33:29because if he's sent back his life will be in danger thank you thank you mr backman
33:35quite frankly judge i find consul's argument offensive the implications are that the state
33:42department does not want to protect this child and that couldn't be further from the truth the state
33:48department wants this child protected just not on u.s soil the protection has to come from the sending
33:57state that's federal law and because of separation of powers as callous as it may sound protection for
34:05this child must take place in zimbabwe given their demand for the child's return this court is divested
34:14of jurisdiction submitted the scope of this hearing is a limited one to determine whether or not
34:21for the immediate future this child's life would be at risk of further abuse either physical or
34:26psychological if he would return home seems to me that this country has failed this child
34:32not once but twice the city of new york failed the child on december 1st there were visible signs of
34:39abuse and rather than doing a full evaluation of the child in the nurse's office the nurse the social
34:46worker in school and the teacher chose to bring the father in without examining the child further which
34:54would have shown clearly a pattern of consistent abuse over a long period of time because those scars
35:02some are fresh some are old they were certainly there on december 1st failure number one of a governmental
35:08agencies towards this child some 10 days later the child was in fact beaten again by his father who
35:16for all intents and purposes acknowledges that in his outburst here because he considers whatever happens
35:22in his home inviolate from inspection of authority the government of the united states of america has the
35:30obligation in my view to at least attempt to reach out to the government in zimbabwe show their
35:38representative these photographs and say we would like some time to ensure that the child if returned
35:45is safe the government of the united states chose not to do that two failures i think that it is the
35:51responsibility of the government to do exactly what mr menser is requesting which is to ask the sending
35:57state and that is zimbabwe to take a fresh look at these fresh welts in the interim i find that the
36:03child is in fact at risk of being further abused and neglected we will pick a trial date for a
36:08full trial on this date until that time the child remand to child protective services is continued
36:16well believe it or not my ruling caused a bit of a firestorm when i continued the child in protective
36:23custody the united states state department immediately appealed and the case was heard in federal court
36:30this time the key legal concept was called the supremacy clause of the constitution which establishes
36:36that federal laws and treaties made under federal authority supersede any laws made by a state and
36:44state courts must defer to those federal laws and treaties but the question for me remained
36:50what about the issue of a little boy who everyone now admitted had been abused here's how it went
37:00counsel note your appearances good morning your honors larry backman on behalf of the government
37:04representing the united states department of state good morning for the respondent terence karamba in
37:10the city of new york i'm dan menser mr backman you may proceed with your opening statement thank you
37:15your honors floyd karamba is a diplomatic envoy from the nation of zimbabwe as such he has absolute diplomatic
37:26immunity precluding him from being either criminally charged or civilly charged and the supremacy clause
37:34prevents the state or the city of new york from attempting to dictate in foreign policy and the only entity
37:44that can waive diplomatic immunity is the sending country the nation of zimbabwe and because they
37:52refuse to do that there is no waiver of immunity and floyd karamba and his child terence karamba are not
38:02subject of the city of new york thank you thank you mr backman mr menser please thank you judge if you
38:11give the state department what they're asking for and send terence karamba back to zimbabwe
38:17his life will be in danger because floyd karamba doesn't think he did anything wrong so what we
38:24want this court to do is to compel the state department to do what they haven't done yet and
38:30that is to ask zimbabwe for a waiver of immunity so that we can prosecute floyd karamba for what he's
38:38done to his son and more importantly with a waiver of immunity terence karamba will continue to receive
38:46the therapy he so desperately needs thank you thank you mr menser we will now recess to deliberate
38:57we are not a unanimous court judge dimango and i are in the majority and judge dimango
39:03will present the majority opinion and judge acker will then give the dissent the essence of this
39:10appeal involves the issue of diplomatic immunity as it pertains to child protective proceedings
39:16conducted pursuant to the family court act the alleged abuse suffered by the child terence at the
39:21hands of his father in the name of discipline indeed offends even the hardest of sensibilities
39:27but the question presented here is did the family court have the authority to exercise jurisdiction over
39:34the parties to hear the case and to reach a decision on the merits in light of the assertions of
39:41diplomatic immunity by both the united states and the sending state zimbabwe the answer to the
39:48question is a resounding no diplomatic immunity is considered the cornerstone of diplomacy is intended
39:56to protect the diplomat and their families from the service of civil process criminal prosecution
40:02and the jurisdiction of the courts of the foreign states in which they are stationed were we to
40:08affirm the decision of the family court our decision could be viewed as condoning their misapplication
40:14of the law and so based upon the foregoing reasons it is with a heavy heart that the lower court's decision
40:22is reversed my colleagues are right to point out the importance of the doctrine of diplomatic immunity
40:30and how critical that doctrine is to our diplomatic services and international interests around the
40:36world but they make a false and unnecessary choice the city's request won't compromise our diplomats
40:43the city simply seeks a stay so that all of the various interests at stake here may be heard diplomats
40:50and their families have a right to immunity but diplomats and their families also have a right
40:56to asylum and to have those claims fairly and properly adjudicated that is the law too here in this
41:04country a child endures this and we can't maintain a simple stay that would permit him to complete a
41:11request for help and to satisfy the legal requirements of properly hearing an asylum claim if the state
41:17department's commitment to human rights is to mean anything if it cares to send a message that this will
41:22not be tolerated in these united states it has the duty to try to bring this abuser to justice it has the
41:31duty to ask i respectfully dissent
41:36how could our government place this child in harm's way without protection even though terence
41:55karamba was ultimately sent back to zimbabwe my ruling which was to have the child remain in protective
42:02custody caused the case to delay as it wound its way through the court system this enabled certain
42:09safeguards to be put in place for the child's protection when he was ultimately returned to his
42:14family the complex issue of diplomatic immunity continues to plague the justice system every year
42:21it seems a new case of a diplomat committing a horrendous crime is protected by diplomatic immunity
42:28sometimes the rule of law when you factor in common sense just doesn't equal justice
42:58so
43:04uh
43:12so
43:19Transcription by CastingWords
43:49CastingWords
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57:07
34:49
34:53
1:24:05
45:17
1:08:20
45:55
43:33
42:21
41:50