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00:00And then, you know, legally, you know, the Bureau of Prisons doesn't own it. There's ways to get it transferred back to them. But there's environmental laws that are going to be in place, the NEPA and Environmental Protection Act, that's going to require a lot of steps to go through before they can just decide to build a prison there or even renovate it.
00:24So I'm not familiar with all of those legal laws, but I know that that itself is a process. The NEPA process itself is a process that's going to probably take one to two years to do if they started today. So you're talking about well beyond the end of the Trump administration before anything is going to be built there if they try and do it.
00:45Just based on your expertise and your opinion overall, to see Bondi and Burgum actually there taking this tour, does that really mean anything about the plan officially moving forward in any way?
00:59Sure. Well, I mean, look, they're following through what the president asked them to do. The president asked them to look into it. And that's what they're doing.
01:08I think once they look into it, I think once they look into it and realize the logistical challenges, the massive costs, there are way cheaper ways to build a high security prison if they even need to do that.
01:22And I don't think they do. But there are other ways to do that. And I think they'll find that out once they do the assessment that they're doing, that they're going to do.
01:30And, you know, look, if I was the attorney general, I'd be doing the same thing. The president asked me to look into it. And that's what they're doing.
01:38I wouldn't read anything into that until we hear what their assessment is once they've had professional teams that know how to do construction, look into it.
01:48When you talk about the modern day supermax prisons, how do those compare to what Alcatraz used to be?
01:56I know we're going back decades there to even discuss that. But how do they compare? Do they compare?
02:02Yeah, I mean, there's really no comparison. Alcatraz, you know, was a place to house people in the most secure, confining conditions.
02:13As a matter of fact, you know, the cells in Alcatraz were tiny. As a matter of fact, if you're six foot, I think they were less than six feet high.
02:20So if you're a six foot person today, you can't even stand up in a cell at Alcatraz.
02:25Today, the Bureau of Prisons has what they call supermax prison in Florence, Colorado.
02:30That was built to replace Alcatraz. That is, has got much higher security, sally ports.
02:37It has state of the art technology, cameras, sensors, electronic controls for the cells.
02:44So it's completely different and much, much more modern than anything Alcatraz has ever, ever been used for.
02:53Alcatraz is also very small. Alcatraz, I think, had a capacity of a little over 300, 330 or so.
03:00And they usually only held about 260 people there.
03:03The ADX in Florence that I referenced before has a capacity of 490.
03:08And as it is, that's the Bureau of Prisons' smallest high security prison.
03:13The Bureau of Prisons has other high security prisons that hold upwards of a thousand people or more.
03:18So it's just completely different than anything else that the Bureau of Prisons is operating today.
03:23And you're looking at some of that aerial video of the tour earlier on, just really a few days ago here with Pam Bondi.
03:30Now, what led, and I don't want to go too far into the weeds here, but what led to Alcatraz being closed all those decades ago?
03:39Was there one single thing that caused it to be closed?
03:43Sure. Alcatraz was closed a number of years ago because of the cost.
03:47It was very expensive to operate the prison at Alcatraz.
03:52Again, remember, you have to boat everything in.
03:56Staff have to come in by boat.
03:58Food has to come in by boat.
03:59Water has to come in by boat.
04:01I mean, they didn't have anything there on the island, and there's no trucks could drive up and deliver it.
04:06So everything has to come in by boat.
04:09If there was an emergency, if somebody needed to go to the hospital, I mean, they had to take a boat to get them to the mainland to then get them to the hospital.
04:16So it was just very expensive to operate.
04:20As a matter of fact, I believe back in 1959, toward the end of the Alcatraz, the cost then was, compared to today, about $139 a day using today's dollars back then.
04:39And today, that would be $500 a day per person.
04:42So it's four or five times more expensive than operating any other prison.
04:47And so ultimately, they decided it was too expensive to operate, and that's why they closed it down.
04:52My last question for you here, just again, kind of based on your expertise, your opinion, all of that here.
05:00Anything about Alcatraz that is maybe a misconception that you think Americans should know about Alcatraz in general, or maybe just don't know?
05:09Well, one of the big things about it, and one of the reasons why the president is interested in it and has talked about it is because, you know, it has this lore that it's escape proof.
05:18You know, it's out in the middle of the bay, shark infested waters.
05:23Nobody is known to have escaped, although there are people that disappeared and never were found.
05:29And so it's questionable whether or not they escaped or drowned.
05:34But nothing is 100% escape proof.
05:38And even as it is today, it's not like the Bureau of Prisons has an escape problem.
05:46People aren't escaping from Bureau of Prisons' prisons.
05:48So I don't know whether or not it's really needed, but, you know, that's really this lore about Alcatraz is that it's 100% escape proof.
05:58And, you know, today's world, you know, if somebody were trying to escape, maybe somebody would bring a boat up to the island and help them off or whatever.
06:08But I think it's different today than it was back in 1959.
06:14And not to keep throwing questions your way, but I just thought of another one here.
06:17Are there any benefits overall in your expertise and opinion to reopening Alcatraz versus maybe building another Supermax-type prison?
06:28Yeah, I mean, I don't know what real benefits there are.
06:32I mean, like I said, it's going to be very expensive to operate.
06:35There are plenty of places in this country where we could build a Supermax if we needed it.
06:41Remember, they already have the ADX, which has the highest, most secure inmates in the country housed there now.
06:50And it's not even full.
06:51So it's not like the Bureau of Prisons is looking for more super high-security prison space.
06:58So they don't really need it.
07:00Like I said, they use the ADX.
07:02But if someone decided they needed it, there's certainly other places that we could build a prison that would be far less expensive than at Alcatraz.
07:11All right, Hugh, thank you so much for taking the time to join us here and help break it all down.
07:16Anything else that you want to add about Alcatraz, the situation in general here, before I let you go?
07:23No, like I said, I think the president's looking for a place to house what he said, the worst of the worst.
07:30And certainly, you know, that's what Alcatraz always did.
07:35And some famous criminals were held there.
07:38But like I said, the ADX is already housing places like El Chapo, the shoe bomber Richard Reed, the Boston Marathon bomber, Zocard Zarnayev.
07:49People like that are already housed at the ADX.
07:51So, you know, we've already got a place to put the worst of the worst.
07:56All right, Hugh Hurwitz there, former acting director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
08:01Thank you again for taking the time to join us here and help discuss all of this.
