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In this episode of India First, the focus is on External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar's visit to China for the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation meeting, where he met President Xi Jinping.
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00:00Good evening, India's External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jayashankar in China for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization Foreign Ministers meeting met the Chinese President Xi Jinping along with other SCO Foreign Ministers.
00:13So Dr. Jayashankar took to social media platform X2Right, called on President Xi Jinping this morning in Beijing along with my fellow SCO Foreign Ministers, conveyed the greetings of President Draupadi Murmu and Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
00:27A Price President Xi of the recent developments of our bilateral ties. Value the guidance of our leaders in this regard. The big question is, are India-China ties being recalibrated? Is there a reset? And can India trust China?
00:47The Jayashankar-Xi Jinping handshake in China results in a political attack in India.
00:54The Jayashankar is saying that we are fighting with Pakistan and China. And the Vijayashankar is saying that all are good. All are good. All are good. All are good. All are good. All are good. All are good.
01:06Spotlight on China-Pakistan nexus during Operation Sindur.
01:12He would rather use the neighbour to cause pain than getting involved in the mud-slinging match on the northern borders.
01:21Our India-China ties being reset post-2020 Ladakh standoff.
01:27Beijing speaks of the dance of the dragon and the elephant.
01:36India-China ties being reset. Can Delhi trust backstabbing Beijing? That's our top focus on India first.
01:53India's External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jayashankar, is in China. He met the Chinese President Xi Jinping in Beijing as part of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization's Foreign Minister's Meet.
02:06The Chinese media has called it resumption of high-level diplomacy, signalling a fresh restart in ties after the meeting of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the Chinese President Xi Jinping in Kazan in Russia in 2024.
02:22While Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi spoke of building mutual trust instead of suspicion and pursue cooperation instead of rivalry,
02:31on the ground, troops remain deployed along the line of actual control, whether it's in Ladakh all the way to Arunachal Pradesh.
02:40Also keep in mind, China has stopped supply of rare earth minerals and material and fertilisers,
02:45and Chinese support to Pakistan during Operation Sindhoor showed evidence of Chinese hostility towards India.
02:54So is there actually a reset or a recalibration of India-China ties?
03:00Guys, we bring you more in this report.
03:10It's been five-tenths years since the Galwan clash.
03:15And now, External Affairs Minister S. Jai Shankar stepped onto Chinese soil and met President Xi Jinping,
03:22signalling a thaw in ties amid ongoing tensions.
03:31However, Jai Shankar wasn't there to just exchange pleasantries.
03:35He brought the voice of Prime Minister Modi straight to Xi's doorstep,
03:40signalling India's readiness for a reset of bilateral ties.
03:44Before meeting Xi, Jai Shankar had met Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi,
03:49pushing hard on de-escalation at the volatile line of actual control.
03:56The message?
03:57Peace is non-negotiable and so is respect.
04:02But the real fire was under the surface.
04:05India laid bare China's chokehold on rare earth exports,
04:09the crucial lifeline for India's booming EV revolution.
04:12And how stalled tunnel boring machines and blocked high-tech exports
04:17are threatening to stall India's futuristic bullet train dreams.
04:23Jai Shankar's message was clear and sharp.
04:26Break down these trade barriers,
04:28lift the roadblocks and let cooperation bloom
04:32for the sake of billions on both sides.
04:35As neighbouring nations and major economies in the world today,
04:42there are various facets and dimensions of our ties.
04:45Measures towards normalising our people-to-people exchanges
04:50can certainly foster mutually beneficial cooperation.
04:54It is also essential in this context that restrictive trade measures
04:59and roadblocks are avoided.
05:00I hope to discuss these issues with you in further detail.
05:04India's tough talk underlines the fact that it will no longer accept
05:11the Dragon's attempts to cow down its neighbours.
05:16A stance recently exemplified by its public support
05:19to the Dalai Lama succession announcement.
05:22As well as Arunachal Chief Minister's bold statement
05:27that India shares its borders with Tibet and not China.
05:32As Prime Minister Modi's visit to China looms this September,
05:36both sides appear to be cautiously navigating a path forward.
05:41Will it be a new dawn or another round of shadows?
05:45Only time will tell.
05:47So will this handshake in Beijing lead to a change of heart?
05:57Is there actually recalibration of ties?
06:00Or is there just an attempt to manage the relationship with China,
06:05given a series of hostile actions that we've seen in the past decade or so,
06:10despite India's best efforts to improve relationship with Pakistan
06:14and China openly helping Pakistan during Operation Sindur,
06:18not just with military hardware,
06:20but with real-time satellite-based intelligence?
06:23What should one make of this journey from Kazan in Russia
06:27to Beijing?
06:29The handshake that you see on your television screen.
06:31Joining me on this India First special broadcast
06:33is left-hand channel Raj Shukla.
06:35He's former Army Commander of the Army Training Command
06:38and a keen China watcher, Ambassador Veena Sikri,
06:41former top diplomat Professor Brahma Chilani,
06:44one of India's foremost voices on strategic affairs,
06:48especially China.
06:49And Aynar Tanjin is Senior Fellow at the Tahir Institute
06:53and Chairman of the Asia Narrative Subtract.
06:56He joins us on the show.
06:57General Shukla,
06:58President Xi Jinping met all SEO foreign ministers.
07:02Is there more to this handshake than meets the eye,
07:05especially in the context of what the external affairs minister said?
07:08We've made good progress in the past nine months
07:11for the normalization of bilateral relations.
07:14It's the result of the resolution of friction along the border
07:18and our ability to maintain peace and tranquility there.
07:23Your appreciation of the situation along the borders
07:27and the India-China ties as they stand today.
07:30Well, all I would say, Gaurav, is that the realities of our strategic neighborhood
07:36are what they are.
07:38I mean, the challenges are pretty grim.
07:41There is nothing to, I mean, hide so far as that is concerned.
07:46What I would emphasize is that, you know, India has to plot its rise
07:51amidst competition, cooperation, confrontations and conflicts.
07:57I mean, that is the reality.
07:59Sindur was just the beginning.
08:01So I would say, I mean, I would endorse any steps taken towards diplomatic engagement.
08:06I mean, Mr. Jay Shankar's meeting with the foreign minister is exchanged with the president.
08:13All that is welcome.
08:14As long as we remain watchful about what is happening along the LAC,
08:19about larger deterrence.
08:21And what we should really focus on is the growing power imbalance with China.
08:26So I would say diplomacy is welcome, but we should be watchful.
08:30So resumption of the kailash Mansur over Yatra is good news.
08:35Disengagement from friction points is good news.
08:38But we have to sort out the de-escalation piece.
08:40So diplomatic engagement is welcome.
08:43But we should remain watchful, strengthen our deterrence
08:47and look very closely at the growing power imbalance with China.
08:51What we hear are very sweet words from China.
08:56But we have, Professor Brahma Chalani, more than 50,000 troops on either side deployed since 2020.
09:04There's massive buildup on infrastructure on either side and openly hostile Chinese actions
09:10during Operation Sindur.
09:12Not just military hardware sales to Pakistan, but also real-time intelligence sharing.
09:16How do you read this handshake in Beijing?
09:21This handshake in Beijing was not a handshake just with the Indian foreign minister.
09:28All the SCO member states foreign ministers were received by President Xi Jinping.
09:33So we should not overemphasize the Jai Shankar-Xi Jinping handshake.
09:39He went as part of that delegation of all foreign ministers.
09:43Every foreign minister was received by President Xi Jinping.
09:48But what we are seeing is not a reset of the India-China relationship.
09:53What we are seeing is China's stepped-up containment of India.
09:57We shouldn't miss the bigger picture.
10:01We shouldn't go by the usual platitudes that Beijing mouths whenever there is an Indian official
10:12visiting Beijing or a Chinese official visits India.
10:15The same platitudes are repeated by Beijing.
10:19Nothing new has emerged.
10:21As we all know, that de-escalation along the frontier remains elusive.
10:26We know that Prime Minister Modi, ever since he became the Prime Minister in 2014,
10:33he went out of his way to befriend China, to reset the relationship with China.
10:39He went out of his way to invite Xi Jinping to visit India as the first major foreign leader.
10:51And when Xi Jinping came to India in 2014, he brought with him a gift for Prime Minister Modi.
10:59This was an incursion, a deep Chinese incursion into Radhaq.
11:04And few months later, he went to Pakistan and he unveiled the China-Pakistan economic corridor.
11:11And we have seen a pattern being repeated despite Modi's overtures to China.
11:162017, Doklam.
11:19India disengages from the standoff point.
11:23And then weeks and months later, China occupies the entire Doklam.
11:29Then after 18 separate meetings between Modi and Xi Jinping, what happens in 2020?
11:36China stealthily encroaches on key Indian borderlands in eastern Ladakh.
11:42The question that we don't ask today, has China rolled back its encroachments in Ladakh?
11:49Or are they still sitting deep inside Indian territory?
11:53De-escalation is one issue.
11:56But we should not forget that Chinese land lapse,
12:00the fact that the status quo has been changed in eastern Ladakh to India's detriment,
12:04that issue should not be obscured.
12:07That is a fundamental issue, a fundamental issue in the China-India equation today.
12:12And that issue will not go away.
12:14Let me also bring in Aynar Tanjin on the platitudes.
12:18Are these just platitudes that come from Chinese leadership?
12:22For example, Wang Yi, Chinese Foreign Minister, Mr. Tanjin,
12:26he said both sides should trust each other instead of being suspicious.
12:31Wang Yi says cooperate rather than compete.
12:34Now, how can there be cooperation, sir,
12:36when you have more than 50,000 troops on the borders on either side?
12:40The friction points remain a cause for concern.
12:43There has been no pullback of troops to their peacetime locations from 2020.
12:48Now it's 2025 July.
12:52Well, there has, in fact, been a number of agreements and there has been pullback.
12:58So I think you're incorrect.
13:00As far as Professor Chalani goes, we've been on many shows.
13:03I don't think he likes China.
13:05He's never said anything nice about it.
13:06But the fact is, China is your neighbor.
13:09One of the big issues I see is that there's a difference in cultures and how both sides like to negotiate.
13:18For instance, China likes to smile, have an extended hand, be very friendly at the front.
13:24But they're very, very tough in the clinches.
13:27They want to negotiate very hard.
13:29And then stab India in the back.
13:31Smile in the front and then stab us in the back.
13:33If you want to.
13:34I mean, if you want me to talk, fine.
13:35If you don't want me to talk, that's fine as well.
13:37I can just hang up.
13:38OK, so let me finish.
13:40So from China, from India's point of view, it's the negotiation posture is start out hard and, you know, keep keep going at it.
13:48And unfortunately, these these approaches don't always mesh very well.
13:53Both sides have things that they don't like.
13:55China doesn't like India backing the Dalai Lama and his claims that he can decide who is the next Dalai Lama.
14:04They don't like the statement that Anshal Pradesh governor said, well, you know, we don't have a border with China.
14:13We have it with Tibet.
14:14And India doesn't like what happens in Pakistan.
14:19They don't like the the corridor.
14:22There are lots of things.
14:24And it has broken out in conflicts.
14:27The issue you know and has mentioned so far is why is this happening?
14:32And it's quite frankly, it's happening because Donald Trump is pressing tariffs on India 30 percent, 10, 25 percent on steel, 10 percent because India is a member of BRICS.
14:45He's insisting that India open up agricultural markets.
14:48All this would be political suicide for India to take away the livelihoods of already desperate farmers.
14:55So now, you know, India is doing what it has to to try to pivot, to try to figure out and get some leverage on Washington, go to the dragon to, you know, kind of contain the evil.
15:08Hopefully it breaks out in peace that they can resolve something.
15:12But I do agree with Wang Yi.
15:15There has to be a de-escalation in these kind of tit for tat situations.
15:19And that includes China as well.
15:22You know, I'll get Ambassador Veena Sikri to respond because she's heard you and she will respond to you with facts to counter a narrative that China tries to build, which is sadly not based on facts at all.
15:36And Mr. Tanchin, unlike China, India has free press and we call a spade a spade.
15:42Ambassador Sikri, what China has done is stabbing India in the back repeatedly.
15:48And I'm not going back to 1950s and 62 Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai.
15:52It's the same attitude.
15:53And, you know, Professor Brahmachalani spoke of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister Narendra Modi reaching out to China.
16:00Even when Manmohan Singh was Prime Minister, when he would reach out to China, China would do exactly the same, put troops on the border.
16:08So they'd talk sweetly, but then stab India in the back repeatedly, Ambassador Sikri.
16:13Yes, Gaurav, I agree with you.
16:16I think that India has absolutely no illusions about its relationship with China.
16:22I think we should be very clear on that fact.
16:24And I should say the second point that I'd like to make it very clear that at the governmental level is one thing.
16:29We have no illusions at all.
16:31At the people level, the people of India has lost all their trust and faith in good relationship with China.
16:38And this has happened after 2020 and the Galwan issue.
16:41That was the final blow, the break of trust, the ruining of the peaceful border,
16:46which was there for decades before that because of agreements between India and China.
16:51And the breakdown of these agreements through the intrusion into Galwan and the violence there, the killing of people, soldiers, a large number of soldiers lost on the Chinese side as well.
17:03This has completely destroyed the faith and goodwill that the people of India had for China at one time, because they used to admire China's economic growth and economic development.
17:14And they were prepared that India should, you know, take something from China, learn something from China.
17:18All that has been completely destroyed.
17:20As you said correctly, our prime minister has made every effort and has, of course, he has visited China before.
17:26And then when he became prime minister, President Xi Jinping came to India, was given full respect and so on.
17:33But 2020 has destroyed a lot.
17:36We are trying, we are willing to build back to the extent that to normalize the relationship, to have a good trade relationship.
17:42But we consistently find this stabbing in the back.
17:46As you said, for example, just last week, 300 Chinese engineers been being withdrawn from the Foxconn plant, Apple iPhones, just like that, you know, just like that.
17:57So say, let's put as many obstacles as we can in the way.
18:00And we know that constantly we have trade barriers.
18:03You've spoken about the rare earth and other difficulties.
18:05The constant effort to bring in these barriers that will make, hoping for a slowdown in India's economic growth and industrial might and progress.
18:15And saying that somehow or the other.
18:17The worst blow was, of course, during operations in Zul.
18:19Yes.
18:20And then the infactual statements about China's direct assistance to Pakistan through satellite imagery and so on to give them, it was as if China was part of the war on Pakistan's side.
18:32And it was, it indeed was, you know, that statement.
18:36And that's why we played out that statement of General Rahul Singh, Deputy Chief of Army Staff, General Shukla.
18:41You know, when you hear the statement of Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi, two major neighboring oriental civilizations,
18:49the essence of China-India relations is how to live in harmony.
18:55But their actions don't show that.
18:57He says, realize the dance of the dragon and the elephant, respect, trust and coexist peacefully and seek development together.
19:05All of these very sweet words, China's actions, just the opposite, very hostile.
19:11And as Ambassador Sikri pointed out, real-time intelligence sharing with Pakistan during Operation Sindur.
19:17Pakistan does not have those low-earth orbiting satellites.
19:19All that information China gave to Pakistan, what does that show, sir?
19:23Well, frankly, Gaurav, this collusivity bit doesn't surprise me one bit.
19:29I remember years back when I was the GOC in Baramula, we saw Chinese troops helping the Pakistanis in the construction of defenses right opposite us.
19:41I used to see them on an everyday basis.
19:43So collusivity is not news to me.
19:46It's only been growing.
19:47And in Sindur, we saw that it manifested in terms of sharing of data from the Baidu satellites, electronic warfare, so on and so forth.
19:57I think General Rahul Singh was just amplifying the reality of Sindur.
20:01But anyone in the military knows that collusivity has been there for decades.
20:05May I also add that we have the competence to deal with this collusivity and we demonstrated it in dramatic terms.
20:12Look at what happened to collusivity on the 10th of May.
20:16It lay shattered.
20:18So while we endorse all initiatives for peace, we are capable of taking care of what you call these Chinese stabbings in the back.
20:30The military is extremely competent.
20:32May I also point out that to Galwan, we responded with remarkable electricity.
20:38Look what we did in Kailash.
20:40Look at the rebalancing thereafter.
20:42And nobody knows this better than the commander of the Western Theater Command.
20:46Ask him.
20:47He will know from Galwan and thereafter, our responses have been measured, calibrated, but where required sharp.
20:54So all I'm saying is that we are capable of dealing with Chinese shenanigans on ground.
21:01But we must continue to invest in deterrence in all these areas of space, EW, cyber, AD topology.
21:09And I can go on about that.
21:11Absolutely.
21:12My basic principle is engage with the Chinese, trust, but verify.
21:17And therefore, concurrently invest in your deterrence and we live in harmony.
21:22May I just, you know, to these metaphors of Mr. Wangi, I have a theory of my own.
21:26And I just take one minute.
21:28I'm saying for the first time in history, the world's number one and three economies in PPP terms, China and India, are growing in close proximity without the Himalayas.
21:39They have been breached technologically.
21:42So the only way to keep the, you know, geostrategic clash of trajectories peaceful is by investing in deterrence.
21:49And therefore, I'm a huge votary of deterrence.
21:52If we invest in deterrence, there will be peace.
21:54Otherwise, you know, peace may not be guaranteed.
22:00China only respects strength.
22:02China does not respect, you know, it may fool you with this sweet conversation.
22:07I have no doubt.
22:08Yeah.
22:09And before I bring in Professor Chilani, in our tangent, you know, selling military hardware to a state sponsor of radical Islamist terror is one thing.
22:16But to give Pakistan army real time intelligence through satellite, isn't that indicative of direct participation of China in Operation Sindur and goes completely against what Wangi preaches, peace and cooperation when he does or China does just the opposite.
22:31So China does not practice what it preaches, sir?
22:34Well, you have to remember what the facts are.
22:39The fact is that India was attacking Pakistan because they believed it and it was a state sponsor behind a terrorist attack.
22:45No proof has been offered of that.
22:47There's been lots of assurances.
22:49China and Pakistan both said, let's have an investigation.
22:52India says we won't do that.
22:54We're going to attack.
22:56So when another nation is attacked, yes, other countries do not want to see this kind of unilateral action.
23:04There's no end game to this.
23:07You have to understand, you know, what are you going to do?
23:11Just say that India can attack any country if it believes it's somehow involved in terrorist activities?
23:17What if China started doing that?
23:19What if they said, well, you know, India didn't commiserate over the 11 people who were hauled off a bus and other places and killed recently?
23:28I didn't hear any outcry about that.
23:30That was a terrorist attack.
23:32It was against Pakistanis.
23:35But there was no outcry. Terrorism is terrorism.
23:38Is Chinese world view actually so myopic?
23:40Do you actually believe what you say?
23:42You seriously believe what you say?
23:44I'm an American.
23:46No, this is despite the fact that you have Chinese nationals who have been killed in Pakistan.
23:51And you still give cover fire to state sponsors of radical Islamist terror.
23:57Just because you think, just because China may think that they will checkmate India because that is clearly not happening.
24:02As you may have seen in Operation Sindhu, I'll tell you why, sir.
24:05I'll tell you why.
24:07Pakistan may be a victim of terror.
24:09I want to talk, but I want to have a conversation.
24:11I don't want you to talk down.
24:12I don't want you to talk down to India.
24:14At the same time, you have to take our points of view.
24:16The situation is kind of nonsense.
24:19You're not.
24:20Channel something else.
24:21Be yourself.
24:22The fact is, if you invite somebody on and you want them to talk and you have, you know, basically four of you against me, I'm just trying to present an opinion and you try to make it personal.
24:35No, we don't.
24:36The point is, you should also go back with the Indian perspective unless you don't want the Indian perspective.
24:44Oh, you think being stabbed in the back is nonsense.
24:47I'm sorry, Professor Brahmachalani.
24:48But you don't want to hear any other perspective.
24:50Well, you are.
24:51I'm hearing a perspective.
24:52No, you're not.
24:53I'm hearing a perspective.
24:54I've heard your perspective.
24:55At the same time, you are unwilling to hear another perspective unless you're very insecure.
25:00And I don't mean you.
25:01I mean China as a country, Professor Chalani.
25:04Professor Chalani, unless China is so insecure that it doesn't want to hear another perspective because it knows what it's doing is absolutely wrong.
25:13For example, when China is not sharing hydrological data on the Brahmaputra River or it's not, you know, giving that rare earth minerals or that heavy earth drilling machinery to India and helping Pakistan.
25:25Every hostile action of China belies the sweet words of Ahangi, but they don't want to hear about it.
25:32So what do you make of India's attempts to remain engaged on multilateral fora like the SCO and the BRICS and also bilaterally?
25:42Can it improve ties or is China only buying time till it thinks it can strike India either directly like in Galwan or through Pakistan once again?
25:51India has been making sincere efforts for long and the success of governments to improve relations with Beijing in the belief that the world's two largest countries in terms of populations should be at peace with each other.
26:10India has made sustained efforts to have normal peaceful relations with Beijing, but we know what China has done in return.
26:29Every now and then sprung a surprise. It has stabbed India in the back. It has not reciprocated India's overtures.
26:38But about the discussion that we are having today, Gaurav, let me be frank.
26:44When you invite somebody like Mr. Tangent, who's a Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece, and then you put some of us who are independent scholars or analysts, whether they are, you know, like Ambassador Sikri or the general that you have or myself, we are independent minded people.
27:03We are not mouthpieces of our government. And when you have a discussion where you have one CCP mouthpiece, that really is, you know, it doesn't create the room for open debate because you just heard what Mr. Tangent has to say.
27:24He talks down even at you. So I think in future, if you, if you, if you have a discussion,
27:31And I clearly didn't permit that, if you notice, we don't permit that.
27:33No, you did. I'm glad you did. You did intervene.
27:35But, you know, it puts us, it puts me, for example, in a very odd position.
27:40I normally don't want to be in a discussion with the mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party.
27:46And I think, and I think this is embarrassing for me. And I wouldn't like to be in the same situation again.
27:53Absolutely. Point taken, sir. Though I want Indians, you know, those who still believe in, there are many who, you know, believe in that Hindi chini bhai bhai kind of narrative.
28:02And they say, you know, we are two ancient civilizations and we shouldn't let America get us to fight.
28:06Get us to fight. And I just want them to know the truth about these people.
28:10And that is why when people said, why do we bring Pakistani guests, I want them to know the real face of the Pakistanis.
28:15Just scratch beneath the surface. They are, they are 50 shades of Hafiz Mohammed Said.
28:19That, that's my only effort, sir. So that, you know, the people realize the true face of these people.
28:25But your point taken entirely. Go and complete your point, sir.
28:28Gaurav, the real issue in the India-China relationship is that Tibet, Tibet, despite having been annexed way back in 1951, Tibet remains the core issue in India-China relations.
28:44This is the reality that we should face up to. We can, we can talk about the line of actual control.
28:51We can talk about many other things. But the core issue, the core issue in India-China relationship is Tibet.
28:57And that's, that is why the Dalai Lama's succession is such a pivotal turning point.
29:06China has used Tibet over the years as a launch pad to encroach on Indian territories.
29:12This has happened since the 1950s. It used Tibet to invade India in 1962.
29:17It used Tibet more recently in 2020 to encroach on key borderlands of, of Ladakh.
29:23It's on the basis of its occupation of Tibet that China lays.
29:26It's illegal occupation of Tibet. You're absolutely right.
29:29No, now, now China lays claims to, to Indian territories, not contained with the territory that is occupied on the basis of its occupation of Tibet.
29:38Yes.
29:39So, Tibet is very much the source of Chinese expansionism and interference in India's internal affairs.
29:46So, Ambassador Sikri and then General Shukla, do you see a reset?
29:50Do you see India, kind of, one, you heard Pema Khandu, the Chief Minister of Arunachal Pradesh, emphatically stating India does not share a border with China, India's border is with Tibet.
30:03You know, Kiran Rijiju, Parliamentary Affairs Minister and Minority Affairs Minister being, you know, there with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
30:13India's official stance, but is India gradually pushing back in your appreciation, Ambassador Sikri, and should we do that a little more?
30:21So, absolutely, I think there is a pushback coming. Again, I would say the feeling of the people of Arunachal Pradesh is that the feeling of people who support and love the Dalai Lama is that India has said clearly that we do not respect, we will always allow Dalai Lama the full freedom for religion and spiritual freedom, and that is what he's exercising.
30:42He has given up all temporal power, so there is no reason for that. But I'd like to say one more thing, that China has absolutely no business to talk about India-Pakistan, as Mr. Tanjit just spoke, because they want India to recognise Chinese sovereignty over Tibet, but they will not respect India's sovereignty over Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
31:02And they have built a road, the China-Pakistan Economic Cooperation Corridor, that road is to POK. It's a direct affront on India's sovereignty. So, when you talk about mutual respect, and mutual sensitivity, and mutual interest, they have to recognise that.
31:17So, if they are not willing to recognise India, they've taken this cargo, they've taken parts of POK, they've handed over them by Pakistan, they've walked through POK all the time, which we don't recognise.
31:29So, how should we recognise their control over Tibet, or their sovereignty over Tibet? We do not. It has to be mutual.
31:37And I think one of the important points, called out by Prime Minister Modi in his speech in the BRICS summit, and by Foreign Minister Jay Shankar in his speech in the SCO Foreign Minister of the Kingdom, that we do not want double standards.
31:49We do not want double standards on terrorism.
31:51On terrorism, yes.
31:52We want completely unity of standards, and we will not accept double standards.
31:56And in fact, Jay Shankar, EM Jay Shankar in his speech, also spoke about the fact that the Security Council resolution on, after Pahlgam, attack on tourists, you know, with Pakistan being a member, he didn't mention Pakistan by name, said clearly that those who have done this terrorist attack must be called out, must be called to order, apprehended.
32:18And there can be no double standards on this.
32:20So, this is what we are fighting for, and we are going to continue this in every forum.
32:23So, the value of forums like SCO and BRICS is very much to call out these situations, and to get the support of the Global South on these issues.
32:32So, I think China has to recognize that they are the ones maintaining double standards, and they are going to continue to do it.
32:36Look, and clearly, you know, China, with its mentality, it will not.
32:41You know, countries like China and Pakistan, and this is why, and I want to come on another aspect beyond Tibet, is China trying to get Bangladesh and Pakistan together,
32:51and trying to make deeper inroads in South Asia, but I'll just come to that point in a minute.
32:56You know, we'll extend this debate, and we can now talk even more freely with Mr. Tangent, not here,
33:01because Mr. Tangent is very unwilling to see the other point of view, and that just shows that how nervous they are of facts being put out in public domain,
33:10because their narrative world over fails.
33:12General Shukla, the Global Times in its editorial, on Dr. Jaishankar's visit, says the first in five years, it's a fresh restart in ties.
33:21After the leaders, October 2024 meeting in Kazan, leaders, President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Narendra Modi,
33:29it says that Indian messaging is more positive and pragmatic, reflects the optimism about bilateral improvement.
33:37Now, does China believe this, or China just says this, so that India, or at least some in India, will believe in that Hindi-Chini-Bhai-Bhai-Bhogey of the 1950s,
33:48that they think that will work in 2025, and they want to continue arming Pakistan, and trying to strengthen on the borders, and try and take on India.
33:58Is that their game plan?
34:00See, I don't think we should, you know, respond to China in emotional terms.
34:08Our responses must be predicated on cool, calculated, rational responses.
34:14And here, what really bothers me is one dimension of the Sino-Indian relationship, and that is the American factor.
34:21You know, as I observe President Trump,
34:23I see that while he's willing to contest China in technological, economic terms, so, you know, trade, tariffs, jobs, and chips, and all that,
34:33he's less than willing to contest China in strategic military terms,
34:38which means that he's giving China great diplomatic strategic military space in Asia.
34:44That should worry us, which means that we will have to deal in case of any contingency with China on our own.
34:55And here, see what's happening.
34:56If you see the two recent conflicts, look at the new emerging security architecture.
35:01Iran-US, very tight embrace in military terms.
35:05Pakistan-China, very tight embrace in military terms.
35:08So, where are these cutting-edge technologies of space, EW, cyber, which are so important now,
35:15more important than platforms perhaps going to come from?
35:18And here, I see the only option seems to be the USA.
35:22So, those agreements which were signed between Prime Minister Modi and President Trump in February,
35:28Trust, Asia, IndusX, we need to galvanize those and build capacities.
35:35So, I'm just referring to how do we use the America factor in strengthening our deterrence with China.
35:41This is my view and I would love to hear what Mr. Brahma Chalani or Ambassador Seek will think.
35:47I think this is a very particular factor.
35:48Since you've raised a very important point, Professor Chalani, you want to weigh in?
35:51Well, we are living in a world in flux and Trump represents the shift that we're seeing in the world
36:03where countries are becoming more protectionist, they're becoming more insular,
36:08that this is no longer a rule-based world, but a world in which might makes right.
36:14This is clear that the coming world order is going to be much different from the order that we had in the past.
36:27And in this world in flux, India finds itself in a position that offers both opportunities
36:37and also the situation comes with parallels for India.
36:40The parallels come largely from the regional context because India is located in a very difficult neighborhood.
36:48Whenever I've been to Israel, the Israelis love to ask one question.
36:52And the question is, is India's neighborhood worse than Israel's or is Israel's neighborhood worse than India's?
36:58Because this is something that, you know, that Israelis, you know, really are fixated on as to whose neighborhood is the worst in the world.
37:08But certainly, whether you answer, you know, whether India's neighborhood is worse or Israel's neighborhood is worse,
37:16the fact is that India is located in a very troubled neighborhood, and that troubled neighborhood weighs down India.
37:25It weighs down India heavily, and looking ahead, this regional situation is not going to improve.
37:31So, as a result, what India does is to build partnerships,
37:36strategic and economic partnerships with countries located far beyond its region.
37:41So, all of India's key partnerships are with powers that are located far beyond its neighborhood.
37:49And I think that that reality only compounds India's foreign policy and strategic challenges.
37:58How reliable are some of those partners, especially United States under Donald Trump?
38:03To an extent, Joe Biden, before him, is again a big question.
38:08France, seen as more reliable. Israel, seen as reliable.
38:12Russia, so far, has been very reliable.
38:15But, you know, these questions, and I'd get, like, Ambassador Sikri to weigh in.
38:20But isn't India in a tougher situation than even Israel?
38:23You have a nuclear-armed state sponsor of radical Islamist terror on one side,
38:27and an expansionist belligerent China on the other,
38:31and a budding terrorist nation, Bangladesh.
38:34You know, and you've been our ambassador there.
38:37How do you view that terror on so many fronts, situation along Myanmar?
38:41How do you view all of these, madam?
38:44Yeah, I think we have to recognize that India is in a very turbulent neighborhood.
38:49But we have to also recognize that part of this turbulence is created by others
38:53who don't want to see India's rise, and who are constantly trying.
38:58We saw what happened in Bangladesh last year, you know,
39:00and there was a Biden deep state who played a very active role in that.
39:03We know that China, as you said, is, you know, getting Pakistan and Bangladesh together
39:07and thinking they'll get back to the old days, pre-1971 days,
39:10where you can mount a pincer attack on India.
39:13So India has to negotiate all this.
39:15Then we've chosen the role of strategic autonomy, of multi-alignment.
39:20We are very calm and cool about it.
39:22We don't get disturbed or, you know, get erratic about it.
39:25And we're prepared to talk to everybody.
39:27That is the role of strategic autonomy.
39:29Whether it is Russia, whether it is America, whether it is China,
39:32we're prepared to talk to them.
39:33But we don't give up on our own interests.
39:36And we are not scared to call out double standards.
39:39I think this growing strength of India is something that we have to know
39:45that it disturbed other people.
39:46But we have to continue to grow.
39:48I agree fully that strategic deterrence is very important.
39:51And unless we can modernize our hard power, get the latest technology.
39:55But we did show very effectively during Operation Sindhuur
39:58that our own indigenous made in India technology is working very well.
40:02So it gives us a great boost to strengthen that
40:05and also to get the necessary technology from other areas where we are.
40:09So I think our foreign policy is in a very strong position,
40:13but we are aware of the challenges.
40:14It's not that we're not aware.
40:16We're not talking to anybody, including China,
40:18without being aware of the challenges.
40:20But we are prepared to do that.
40:21I mean, if the Kailash Mansur over yatra has started,
40:23it's a good thing.
40:24And we're prepared to say it's a good thing.
40:26But it doesn't hide any of the other problems that are there
40:29and which we are willing to talk about.
40:30Similarly, with USA, we know that, you know,
40:32President Donald Trump met Asin Munir in his own office
40:36and what has happened to us.
40:38But we also know that, yes,
40:40I quite agree that American technology is something we need.
40:43There are excellent initiatives in America,
40:45like the ICT initiative and other initiatives we have to build upon.
40:49And we know the engines,
40:50the aircraft engine that we are waiting to get from America regularly,
40:53all that.
40:54So it's a constantly a balancing effort and a balancing strategy.
40:59I think we're doing well because our economy is going well
41:02and because we are able to manage our own internal technology.
41:05You look at the news which came yesterday about the oil fines around the Andaman region
41:09and how this could really transform India's economic growth
41:12if that proves to be factually correct.
41:15So there are always these good news,
41:17but we will never be caught sleeping on the evil intentions of people like Pakistan
41:24who are now influencing Bangladesh,
41:26who are now trying to sell tanks to Bangladesh,
41:28Turkey selling drones to Bangladesh.
41:30And that is greatly influencing the instability in Myanmar as well.
41:36We know that the Arakhan army is being moved by both China and by America.
41:41And so, you know,
41:41all these factors of instability we are fully called out on,
41:45but we are building our own strength to manage these.
41:47Very.
41:47And that's exactly why I said,
41:48we live in perhaps the toughest neighborhood in the region
41:53and yet we come out on top
41:54and that shows Bharat Shakti,
41:57India's strength,
41:59economic strength,
42:00diplomatic strength,
42:01military strength
42:01and people's strength,
42:03people power in this country.
42:05We will continue to debate this.
42:07I've run out of time.
42:08Even in the extended part of our debate,
42:11General Shukla,
42:11Ambassador Secret and Professor Brahma Chilani,
42:13as always,
42:14such a pleasure having you on India First.
42:16Group captain Shuvanshul Shukla
42:18is back after his historic mission in space.
42:2220 days he was in space,
42:2518 days in the International Space Station.
42:28The SpaceX Dragon capsule
42:29made a perfect splashdown
42:31off the coast of California,
42:35marking the end of this flawless journey.
42:37So as Shukz begins his seven-day rehabilitation,
42:40we decode what this means
42:42for India's mission space.
42:46History has just been written in the stars
42:58and its ink is the spirit of India.
43:01In a moment that gripped a billion hearts,
43:04group captain Subhanshul Shukla,
43:06India's first astronaut
43:07aboard the International Space Station,
43:09took his first steps back on Earth.
43:11At exactly 3.01pm Indian Standard Time,
43:18the SpaceX Dragon capsule
43:20pierced through Earth's atmosphere,
43:23blazing a fiery trail of glory
43:25before splashing down
43:26off the California coast
43:28near San Diego.
43:29As recovery teams raced to the capsule inside,
43:41Shukla and his multinational Exeom 4 crew
43:43emerged safe and smiling.
43:46Back in Lucknow, emotion overflowed.
43:55The Shuklas left overwhelmed with tears,
43:58prayers and pride.
44:01Shukla's family experienced a wave of pride,
44:04excitement and deep emotion
44:06as they awaited and celebrated his return from space.
44:09The family closely followed
44:13every development glued to live updates,
44:15offering prayers and preparing
44:17for his homecoming
44:18with both joy and reverence.
44:20His father, Shambhu Diyal Shukla,
44:45spoke of overflowing pride.
44:47Prime Minister Narendra Modi hailed it,
45:11a milestone towards Gaganayan,
45:13saying Shubhanshu has inspired
45:15a billion's dreams with his courage
45:17and pioneering spirit.
45:20And in New Delhi,
45:21the emotion was no less electric.
45:23Joining the celebrations was
45:25Union Minister of Science and Technology
45:27and Space, Dr. Jitendra Singh.
45:30It's a moment of pride for the whole world
45:33and a moment of glory for India
45:36as one of our illustrious sons
45:39returns back
45:40after accomplishing a successful voyage
45:43and after having conducted
45:46some of the very vital life-bearing experiments
45:49never done before.
45:52And therefore, as I said,
45:54today, indeed,
45:56Bharat has found
45:57an enduring space
45:59in the world of space.
46:01Now, all eyes turn on August 17th
46:04as Subhanshu may return to Delhi.
46:06A hero's welcome
46:07awaiting a man
46:08who has become a symbol
46:10of India's celestial rise.
46:13The stars are no longer out of reach
46:15because one of our own
46:17just came back from them.
46:20This is not just a return.
46:22It is a new beginning
46:23for Gaganayan
46:24and for India's boundless space dream.
46:28Bureau Report, India Today.
46:30So, not only is Group Captain
46:36Subhanshu Shukla
46:37the first Indian
46:38to spend maximum time in space,
46:4120 days,
46:42as against 7 days
46:43of squad leader Rakesh Sharma,
46:44Group Captain Shukla
46:45is also the first Indian
46:46on the International Space Station.
46:48But how is this experience
46:49likely to benefit
46:51India's space mission?
46:53Joining me on this special broadcast now
46:54is Shibu Kumar Turpati,
46:56Senior Assistant Editor
46:57of Science India Today.
46:58Shibu, 18 days space mission
47:01at the ISS,
47:0320 days in space.
47:04How will the Indian
47:05Space Research Organization
47:06leverage his findings?
47:09For example,
47:09to enhance astronaut training,
47:11spacecraft design
47:12or mission protocols
47:13for India's first
47:14crewed space flight?
47:17Gaurav, India at the moment
47:18is in a development phase
47:19of its own
47:19human space flight mission
47:21known as the Gaganayan mission.
47:23It's supposed to have
47:24the first flight in 2027.
47:26Group Captain Subhanshu Shukla
47:27is one of those astronaut
47:28designates part
47:29of the Gaganayan mission.
47:31So his entire mission
47:31was highly, highly important
47:33for India
47:33from a training purpose.
47:35The experience
47:36that he would have got,
47:37received from training
47:39across multiple countries
47:40with multiple teams,
47:42then launching
47:42into the space station,
47:44the protocols
47:44that would have been followed,
47:45living in space station,
47:47how the body has to adapt,
47:48how the cognitive skills,
47:50how the psychological skills
47:52change in the microgravity,
47:54and then the undocking
47:55and finally the splashdown.
47:57These are all
47:57meticulously designed protocols
47:59that go through
48:00in terms of human space flight.
48:02Launching a spacecraft
48:03is different,
48:04but when a human is involved,
48:05the risks go way, way high
48:07and we saw that
48:08during the launch preparations.
48:09The launch was delayed
48:10multiple times.
48:11ISRO chief later
48:12even revealed that
48:13on ISRO's behest,
48:15the launch were delayed
48:16because there were issues
48:16with the Falcon rocket
48:17which were then resolved.
48:20So, the hands-on experience
48:22has been one of the most
48:23interesting factors
48:24for India
48:25in terms of
48:26developing,
48:27launching Shubhanshu Shukla.
48:29Now, Gaganyan mission
48:30is in a training phase.
48:31The four astronauts
48:32are going to be
48:33in a training phase.
48:34Whatever group captain
48:35Shubhanshu Shukla
48:36and we also have to know
48:36that group captain
48:37P. Balakrishna Nayar
48:38was a backup astronaut
48:39on this mission.
48:40So, he would have also
48:41gone through the same rigour,
48:42through the same training
48:43as group captain
48:44Shubhanshu Shukla.
48:45Once these two
48:46come back to India,
48:47they are going to
48:47inculcate those trainings,
48:49those experiences,
48:50and those learnings
48:51into the training modules
48:53for India's Gaganyan mission.
48:54Absolutely.
48:55You know,
48:55the Sprouts project,
48:57the space microalgae study,
48:59what will all of that reveal?
49:01Over the next several days,
49:02Shibu and I
49:03will continue to get you
49:04the latest on the story.
49:05But that is all I have for you
49:06on this India First special.
49:08Many thanks for watching.
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