- 7/4/2025
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00:00I'd love to start with these.
00:0210 years of work right there.
00:03Someone on your team called these the real-life Tony Stark glasses.
00:06Very hard to make each one of these.
00:08That makes me feel incredibly optimistic.
00:09In a world where AI gets smarter and smarter,
00:11this is probably going to be the next major platform after phones.
00:13I miss hugging my mom.
00:15Yeah, haptics is hard.
00:16How does generative AI change how social media feels?
00:20We haven't found the end yet.
00:22The average American has fewer friends now than they did 15 years ago.
00:25Why do you think that's happening?
00:27I mean, there's a lot going on to unpack there.
00:36I'm about to interview Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg.
00:39Mark Zuckerberg.
00:40There are not that many people with more power over what our future might look like.
00:45Nearly half the total human population now uses Meta products.
00:49And I just tested some of their new tech that feels like science fiction.
00:54This is crazy.
00:55Mark Zuckerberg and the team at Meta are imagining a future
00:59that billions of other people might actually end up living in.
01:02So my goal for this conversation is to try to figure out what that future really looks like.
01:07To paint a picture of the future Mark Zuckerberg is trying to build.
01:11So that you can decide for yourself what you think of it.
01:13Welcome to the first episode of our new series, Huge Conversations.
01:17Hey, good to meet you.
01:24Thanks for doing this.
01:25Yeah, looking forward to it.
01:26Awesome.
01:29I'd love to tell you what my goal is of this conversation.
01:31Go for it.
01:33So we have a show called Huge If True, which is this very optimistic show about science and technology
01:38and the potential futures that we can build.
01:40And in every episode, we're sort of exploring what does it look like if you play a certain technological future out.
01:47And so my goal in this conversation is to try to help people see the future that you're imagining
01:55when you're building the products that you and the Meta team are building.
01:57What are you imagining this looks like in the future?
02:00How are you imagining people use this?
02:03All of that.
02:03Yeah.
02:04Cool.
02:04All right.
02:04Awesome.
02:05So I'd love to start with these.
02:07Let's do it.
02:0810 years of work right there.
02:10I got to demo them a little bit earlier today.
02:14I heard someone on your team call these the real life Tony Stark glasses.
02:18We're getting there.
02:19But I'd love to just hear in your voice.
02:21What are these?
02:22Well, these are the first full holographic augmented reality glasses, I think, that exist in the world.
02:31We've made, I think it's a few thousand or something, right?
02:36Very hard to make each one of these.
02:38But this is the culmination of 10 years of research and development that we've done
02:44to basically miniaturize all the computing that you need to have glasses, not a headset,
02:53but glasses that can put full holograms into the world with a wide field of view.
03:00So you can imagine sort of in the future, we'd be having a version of this conversation where
03:05you know, maybe I or you are not even here.
03:07It's like one of us is physically here and the other one is here as a, as kind of a full body
03:11hologram.
03:12And it's not just a video call.
03:13You can actually interact.
03:14You can do things.
03:15I mean, in the demo, we had the, you know, ping pong and games and things like that.
03:19But I mean, you could, you can interact, you can work together.
03:22You can, you know, play poker, play chess, whatever, like the holographic cards,
03:26holographic board game.
03:28I just think it's going to be wild.
03:29It's going to remake, I think so many different
03:34fields that we think about today from how we work and productivity to a lot of things around
03:39science, a lot of things around education, entertainment, fun, gaming.
03:44Um, so, but this is just the beginning, you know, this is the first version.
03:47It's like, it's a prototype version that we've made, uh, in order to develop the next version,
03:54which is hopefully going to be the consumer one that we sell to a lot of people.
03:58Why build this?
03:59Well, I think it's going to be the next major computing platform.
04:02So if you look at like the grand arc of computing over time, you've, you've gone from like mainframes
04:07to, um, computers that basically like live on your desk or on a tower to phones that you have
04:15in your hand that you basically like, you know, can take with you everywhere that you want.
04:19But it's, it's pretty unnatural, right?
04:21It takes you away from the world around you.
04:24And, um, I think that the trend in computing is it gets more ubiquitous.
04:29It gets more natural.
04:31Um, and it just gets more social, right?
04:34So you want to be able to interact with people in the world around you.
04:37And I think that this is probably going to be the next major platform after phones.
04:41I'll give these to you.
04:41These are the clear ones that show all the whole thing is a special edition.
04:45And this is like a really special edition.
04:47There's not a single millimeter of, of space.
04:53It's, you know, everything in here from the micro projectors that, um, basically shoot light
05:01into the wave guides, right?
05:03It's a special type of display system.
05:06I mean, these aren't normal displays like you have in a phone or a TV or computer,
05:10like the type of displays that people have been building for decades.
05:13It's a wave guide system.
05:15The projector that's shooting light basically goes into these nano etchings
05:20across the wave guide that are what catches and creates the holograms.
05:25In order to synchronize that with your, where you're looking, there's eye tracking and little
05:32cameras, they illuminate your eyes.
05:34And then of course, there's all the basic stuff that you need, all the computing,
05:39the batteries to power the whole thing, microphones, the speakers, because it needs
05:44to be able to play audio and speak with you, um, and the cameras and sensors to see things
05:50around you in the world.
05:51So that way when it's placing holograms in the world, it can do that in the right place
05:54and understand where you are.
05:56So that probably is still not covering everything because there's a lot of things
06:00that need to go into syncing up the holographic images between the two displays,
06:06because you don't just have a single display like you have in a phone or TV.
06:10You have two and it moves around and, um, you know, physical things are hard
06:15and need to be synced up.
06:16There's also the radio that has to communicate with your other computing devices to do
06:21heavier computing, um, and the wrist-based neural interface that you probably got to try out.
06:26We kind of miniaturized all of this and fit it into a, you know, normal looking pair of glasses,
06:31which is, uh, you know, when I told the team that we were going to do this 10 years ago,
06:37um, you know, people weren't sure if we were going to be able to, but I think, you know,
06:41not only are we going to be able to do this, but I think we're going to be able to get it cheaper
06:44and higher quality and even, even smaller and more stylish over time.
06:48So I think this is going to be a pretty wild future.
06:51There are so many versions of trying to get at a similar idea of digital objects in physical space.
06:58I'm thinking of, for example, glasses that have heads up displays where it's headlocked
07:05and it's moving with my eyes glasses that are really creating digital objects in physical space
07:10that don't move as I move. Um, I'm thinking of these. I'm also thinking of the Snapchat
07:16spectacles that they just announced. Then on the other hand, there are headsets like the Quest and
07:21also like the Apple Vision Pro that seem to fall into a different category. I'm curious how you would
07:26organize this landscape for people and how you think about people using these tools in their real
07:30lives in the near future. Yeah. So when we were getting started on this about 10 years ago,
07:35I thought that something like this was going to be the ultimate product for everyone, right? You get to
07:40um, you know, normal looking pair of glasses and we'll continue improving that that can have full
07:45holographic images. Yeah. Um, I think it's, it's super powerful and it is sort of the science fiction
07:50future that I think we all hope to get to. Um, on the journey, we took a few other approaches as well,
07:58um, to help us develop towards that, including building glasses that don't have displays, um, to try to
08:05learn, just take a stylish pair of glasses today and put as much technology into it as you can,
08:10but really focus on the form factor. And that's the Ray-Ban meta glasses and it's doing really well.
08:16And initially we thought that that was sort of intro product for us to learn how to build this.
08:22But one of the things that's clear now is you're going to be able to make that product a lot more
08:28affordable than this probably permanently. So I actually think that there are going to be a bunch
08:34of different of these paths that we've taken are going to be kind of permanent product lines that
08:40people will choose. I think you'll see displayless glasses like the Ray-Ban metas continue to get
08:45better and better. Great for AI, no display, but you can talk to it. It can talk back. I think that
08:50there's going to be something in between these that's basically a heads up display. So it's not a 70
08:55degree field of view. Maybe it's a 20 degree or 30 degree field of view. So that's not going to be
09:01what you want for putting kind of a full hologram of a person or interacting with the world around you.
09:07But it's going to be great for, you know, when you're talking to AI, not just having voice,
09:12but also being able to see what it's saying, right? Or, um, being able to text someone with
09:16your wrist-based neural interface and then have their text show up rather than having it read to you,
09:21which is it's we read faster than we can listen or getting directions, right? Or, um, just being
09:26able to search for information and get all that. So there's a lot of value for a heads-up display
09:30that will be somewhat more expensive than the displayless glasses. Um, but somewhat cheaper
09:35than this. Then I think you're gonna get this. It's going to be probably the most premium and
09:42expensive of the glasses products, but hopefully still something that, you know, like a computer is
09:48generally accessible to most people in the world. But I think that they're going to be all of those.
09:52And I think people will like them. I also think that the headsets that people are using around
09:57mixed reality will continue to be a thing too, because no matter how good we get at miniaturizing
10:02the tech for this, you're just going to be able to fit more compute into a full headset. You know,
10:08fundamentally our mission is not, you know, build something that is advanced and only a few people
10:13can use. We want to take it in the last mile and do all the innovation to get it to everyone.
10:19We, you know, just shipped, um, or now it's quest three S the new mixed reality headset.
10:25We basically are delivering high quality mixed reality for $299. I was really proud last year
10:31when we delivered quest three, the first kind of really high quality, high resolution color mixed
10:37reality device, um, for $500, right. It was like, it's like a fraction of the cost of what the
10:44competitors are doing. And I think it's actually higher quality in a lot of ways. And now we've
10:48just doubled down on that. So I think that they're all actually going to end up being
10:54important long-term product lines, display lists, heads up display, full holographic AR,
11:00full headsets. I think that they're all going to be important.
11:03Yeah. If you play out the future of not just the hardware that we've been talking about. Um,
11:10so meta ray bands quest Orion, um, but also the llama models, if everything goes according to you
11:20and the team's wildest dreams, I'd love for you to just begin to describe what that feels like.
11:26I mean, I think that there are two primary values that we're trying to bring on the AR and kind of
11:31mixed reality side. The main value we're trying to bring is this feeling of presence, right?
11:36So there's something that I think is just really deep about being physically present with another
11:42person that you don't get from any other technology today. And I think that that's the thing when people
11:47have a very visceral reaction to experiencing virtual or mixed reality, what they're really
11:53reacting to is that they actually, for the first time with technology, feel a sense of presence.
11:58Like they're in a place with a person and that's super powerful. Like I focused on designing social
12:04apps and experiences for 20 years. That's sort of like the holy grail of that is being able to build
12:09a technology platform that delivers this like deep sense of, of social presence. The other big track
12:16is around personalized AI. And for that, and that's sort of where llama and met AI and all those things
12:22are going. There's all this development that's going into making the models smarter and smarter over
12:28time. But I think where this is going to get really compelling is when it's personalized for you.
12:35And in order for it to be personalized for you, it has to have context and understand what's going on
12:41in your life, both kind of at a global level and like what's physically happening around you right now.
12:47And in order to do that, I think that glasses are going to be the ideal form factor because
12:52they're positioned on your face in a way where they can let them see what you see and hear what you
12:56hear, which are the two most important senses that we use for, for kind of taking an information
13:01and context about the world. I think that this is all going to be kind of really deep and profound stuff,
13:06but it's basically those two things. It's this feeling of presence and this capability of really
13:11personalized intelligence that can help you.
13:12I'd love to talk about each of those two things.
13:15Mm-hmm.
13:17The first on presence, I owe a lot to being able to connect with people online, right?
13:22This job that I have is by definition.
13:24Yeah, yeah.
13:25Also with my family, my parents don't live anywhere close to me.
13:29I video call them a lot. And when I think about the progress of technology like this,
13:35in a timeline from like the telegram to the telephone to video call to some feeling of
13:42presence with another person who's feels like they're right there in front of me,
13:45that makes me feel incredibly optimistic. I would love a future where like I can
13:51lose in Scrabble to my mom and feel like she's really there in front of me.
13:56Yeah.
13:56And it feels like we're not that far away from something
13:58I agree.
13:59That persuades my brain that that's happening.
14:01Yeah, totally.
14:02And also, I miss hugging my mom, right? Like that never goes away.
14:09Yeah, haptics is hard.
14:11Yeah.
14:12And so my question is, my question is about that. It's about this feeling of like,
14:15it's hard for me to imagine a future where real physical presence is not different and special in
14:24some way, where I don't miss literally hugging my mom.
14:28Yeah.
14:28And I'm curious how you think about the parts of human connection that are eye contact and
14:38physical touch and things that our eight brains value for connection with other people.
14:44Yeah, well, eye contact, I think we're going to get to a lot before the touch part.
14:48For haptics, I do think we'll make progress on that, but it's obviously there's a spectrum there
14:54too from kind of hands, which is where if you draw out the kind of like homunculus version of a
15:02person in terms of like, what are our kind of sensory, you know, what's like the majority of
15:07what we're sensing?
15:07Yeah, it looks funny.
15:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:09So I think being able to do that for your hands is probably the most important place to start.
15:15And you have a rough version of that with controllers today.
15:18Um, I think that that'll get even more over time.
15:20We have this demo playing ping pong where you have a controller where as the digital ball
15:26hits the ping pong paddle, you feel it hit the, as if it's hitting the ping pong paddle,
15:30wherever it is.
15:31So you actually have a sense of like where it's, it's hitting the, the, the paddle.
15:35So I think that that was, that was just a wild demo.
15:38So I think we'll get some of that.
15:39The most extreme version of this is wanting force feedback, right?
15:43So, I mean, like for doing a lot of sports, right, it's, it's like, okay,
15:47we can kind of do a good approximation of like boxing today where you get like good feedback
15:52on your hands, but it would be hard to do a virtual reality version of jujitsu where you're like
15:58grappling with someone and you need like real kind of force feedback on it.
16:02So that's probably like the hardest thing to go do.
16:05Um, but I think we'll get there.
16:07Um, you know, I think like most science fiction, it's not this binary thing that you just like
16:12wake up one day and we're like, oh, we've realized all the dreams.
16:15But, but I, I do think that these platforms are going to be the first time that I think
16:20that there's a realistic sense of presence in all the ways that that's special to people.
16:27Um, for most things that people want to do, which are not the most physical ones.
16:32And even some of the basic physical ones I think we'll get, but then there's a long
16:36tail of other stuff.
16:36I mean, smell is also really important for people, right?
16:39It's I think it's disproportionately important for memories and that's not really a thing
16:46that I think in the next few years we're going to have in any of these devices.
16:50I mean, that's a very difficult and challenging thing on its own.
16:54What is the piece of that that you feel most interested in that you keep coming back to
17:00in your mind?
17:01This has the frustrating property to develop that the sense of presence is almost like
17:07when you're designing something that that's sort of trying to artificially deliver it,
17:11you're delivering an illusion to a person.
17:14And more than any one thing that provides a sense of presence, it's actually more the case
17:21that any one thing done wrong breaks the sense of presence.
17:24You kind of know that you're interacting with technology, but it's so convincing that,
17:32that you just kind of go along with it.
17:34And you're like, okay, yeah, no, this person feels like it feel like they're there.
17:37Right.
17:37When I did that ping pong demo, I like at the end of it, I dropped the ping pong paddle
17:43on the virtual table and it shattered.
17:46So that was not the best for, for, for our internal development.
17:50But, but like that's winning in, in our, in our development, right?
17:53It's like when, when, when you feel like something is, is kind of so realistic that you,
17:57you're just convinced that, um, that it's there now.
18:01And there are a lot of things that can break that, right?
18:03So I think a, a field of view that's too low, right?
18:06So something feels real, but then you turn your head and it's not there.
18:09Um, latency, right?
18:12Physics that don't behave like realistic physics.
18:15It also is interesting in some ways, what people can accept as physically real, even
18:21though it's not right.
18:22So like, we've done a ton of work on avatars.
18:25We, we have this whole work stream on codec avatars to do these photorealistic avatars.
18:29And it's, I think it's going to be incredibly compelling and people are going to love it.
18:33But one of the things that I've found interesting is the ability to mix photorealistic and expressive
18:40kind of the cartoony avatars with photorealistic worlds and kind of more cartoony computer game
18:47type worlds.
18:48So you can have the, a codec kind of photorealistic avatar of a person in what is clearly like a
18:54video game or cartoon world.
18:56And people are generally pretty fine with that.
18:58It's like, okay, that, that feels pretty good.
19:00And similarly having a photorealistic world, but good, increasingly good, um, kind of cartoon
19:08avatars, as long as the avatars move in a way that feels authentic to the person you're interacting
19:14with, it actually feels pretty good.
19:16You know, when you look at a 2d still frame of it, um, some of the stuff can look a little
19:20bit silly and we've certainly, um, you know, had, had our share of memes around that.
19:25But, um, but when you're in there, you know, and you've, you've played around with a lot
19:28of this stuff, it feels realistic because it's basically mimicking the kind of authentic
19:33mannerisms of, of a person that you're interacting with.
19:36Yeah.
19:36And even if it's not a codec photorealistic avatar, if it's kind of a more cartoony expressive
19:40one.
19:40So I think that that's, it's, it's very interesting to see kind of which pieces you need to unlock
19:46and what, where you just need to be like very technically excellent and consistent.
19:50But it's, um, this isn't a space where it's like you deliver one thing and it's good.
19:55This is like, there's a wide breadth of things that you need to nail and then have it all
20:00come together.
20:01And that's why these are, you know, 10 year projects.
20:05It seems like an interesting way to learn about the human brain and what we actually
20:11care about with respect to what feels real.
20:13I was wondering about, there was this moment in an interview that you did with Lex Friedman,
20:20you quoted research that says that the average American has fewer friends now than they did
20:2615 years ago.
20:27Yeah.
20:27And I was so interested in that because it seems like if we want to get to a world where
20:32there's more human connection, this is the trend that we're going to have to grapple with.
20:38And just to give some data on this in the American time use survey over the last 20 years,
20:45the amount of time American adults spend socializing in person has dropped by
20:50nearly 30% for ages 15 to 24.
20:54According to the surgeon general, it's nearly 70%.
20:58And I look at that data and I think to myself, well, maybe if we're all socializing digitally,
21:03that doesn't matter so much.
21:04Maybe there's a future where that's actually fine.
21:06But there's also data that suggests that we're struggling somewhat.
21:10The number of Americans who say that they don't have a single close friend.
21:16Yeah.
21:17That share has jumped from 3% to 12% in the last 30 years.
21:21It feels to me like with all the tools that we've built for human connection, we're struggling to connect.
21:29And I'm curious, why do you think that's happening?
21:36I mean, there's a lot going on to, to unpack there.
21:40Um, a lot has changed sort of economically and socially during that period.
21:47And a lot of those trends go back before a lot of the modern technology.
21:50So, so I mean, this is something that a lot of academics and folks have studied, but
21:57it is an interesting lens to look at this though, because I think whenever you're talking about
22:02building digital types of connection, one of the first questions that you get
22:08is, is that going to replace the physical connection?
22:12And my answer to that, especially in the case of something like this is that no, because
22:23people already don't have as much connection as they would like to have.
22:26It's not like this is replacing some sort of better physical connection that they would have otherwise
22:32had.
22:32It's that the average person would like to have 10 friends and they have two, right?
22:39Or three.
22:40And there's just more demand to socialize than what people are able to do, given the current
22:47construct and giving people the ability to be present with people who are in other places
22:53physically just seems like it will unlock more.
22:55It's not going to make it.
22:56So if I have glasses, it's not gonna make it that I spend less time with my wife.
23:00It's gonna make it so that I spend more time with, you know, my sister who lives across the country.
23:05And, um, that's, I think that that's, that's good.
23:10And I think people need that.
23:11Um, as, as for the rest, I, I think we could probably spend a multi-hour podcast just going
23:16into all of the different, um, kind of socio-economic, political dynamics that are going on.
23:24But, um, none of the trends that I've seen, does it seem like the primary thing
23:30that's going on is that because people are interacting online, they're now not interacting
23:34with their, with people, um, physically.
23:38It's, um, no, certainly I think you, um, you, I, I do interact with people online who I also
23:46like to interact with physically, but, and I think that that's kind of like a combination,
23:50um, like more combined richer relationship that you have overall.
23:54But, um, I think that there's a lot going on with the loss of, of kind of social capital
24:00and connections that really predates a lot of the modern technology.
24:05The goal of what I'm, what I'm trying most to learn about is how we can structure the technologies
24:14that we use in the future to get toward this future.
24:17I think you're imagining of more human connection in more ways.
24:20I'm curious, you brought up the other big pillar of AI and in some of your conversations,
24:28I'm thinking of a conversation with Tim Ferriss in particular, you talked about a lot of different
24:32use cases of AI and they seem to me to fall on somewhat of a spectrum.
24:38But like, for example, you mentioned automatic real-time translation, like basically the Star
24:44Trek translator, universal translator, pretty much there.
24:48Yeah. And that's one example on one end of the spectrum where some people might argue that there
24:55is a chance that someone is less likely, for example, to learn a language because we can all
24:59speak to each other in real time in different languages. I think nobody would really argue
25:04that therefore we shouldn't have that kind of universal translator, right?
25:07Also, a lot of people still learn Latin and Greek.
25:09Right, exactly. And so I think that end of the spectrum is something like
25:16technologies that really measurably unlock our humanity because they remove a struggle between
25:22people. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there are a lot of educational things,
25:26for example, where the struggle is kind of the point, right? Like it's like building a muscle.
25:31I can think of so many times in my life where like the reason why I was doing something was not
25:35the output. It was the fact that I was trying so hard to do it. There's one example in the Tim
25:40Ferris interview where you talked about your kids struggling to articulate themselves emotionally,
25:46and adults very much have the same problem. And you talked about AI as a way to help them articulate
25:52those emotions. And I thought about all of the many times in my life where I have
25:57struggled to articulate my emotions and how I really could have used some help in those moments.
26:02And I also find myself thinking about the times when that was really building a muscle where like
26:08the act of struggling to communicate with someone and understand what they wanted from me was
26:12was important to my development. And so my question is, if you think about that as a spectrum between
26:18things that are really important to our humanity and the struggle being removed is helpful versus
26:24things where the struggle is the point and it unlocks something about our humanity and is important to
26:31preserve, like building a muscle. How do you draw the line between those things and how do we ensure that
26:38the muscles that we're building for this future are stronger and not weaker?
26:42That's interesting. I mean, I think we're always going to find new things to struggle with.
26:47You can always get better at communicating with other people and kind of expressing yourself and
26:51understanding other people. So having a tool that can help you do that better isn't going to mean
26:56that like, oh, now we perfectly understand every, you know, it's, I mean, and I think maybe one of the
27:05most functional aspects of this, you're already seeing a lot of these AI models really help people
27:09with coding, right? Like a generation ago, um, before I was getting started, a lot of coding was
27:15like really low level system software. And, you know, then by the time that I got into it, there's a
27:21little bit of that, but, um, you can make websites pretty easily, make apps pretty easily. And I think in
27:2920 years or a lot sooner than that, um, you're going to basically be in a world where kids will
27:36be able to just describe the things that they want and build incredibly complex pieces of software.
27:40So it's, um, in that world, are kids going to be not struggling? I don't think so. I think that
27:47they're going to be just, um, expressing their creativity and it'll, it'll be this kind of constant
27:53iterative feedback loop around like, okay, like, yeah, I, you know, took a few minutes to describe
28:00this thing and like, yeah, this whole like amazing virtual world was created that I can now see on my
28:05glasses or whatever, but like these things are not exactly what I want them to be. So now I need to
28:11like go back and edit them. It just, I don't know. I think that there's always more. Um,
28:16another way to get at this things that makes, makes people so good. It just, there's, there's always more
28:22to do. We'll always find the struggle. Yeah. Another way to get at this is if you, if you play
28:26this out, um, to make the tools even better in like 10 years, let's say your kids are in high
28:31school. Are there ways that you would want them using AI because you think it would accelerate them
28:37intellectually and ways that you would advocate for them not to use it, uh, or things that you would
28:43have concerns about? I mean, I think that there are some things that you need to be able to do
28:48yourself. I think that that's a lot of the basic fear that people have around this is that while
28:53we're building these amazing tools, we get away from the self-confidence and ability of being able
29:02to do like this basic stuff yourself. So it's like, all right, you have a calculator, but it's still
29:08good to be able to do kind of basic math in your head because there are a lot of things that come up
29:13throughout the day that you just want to have a general numeracy around, right? That, um,
29:19often they're not expressed in numerical terms, but it just in terms of understanding trends or
29:25understanding arguments that people are making, you, you kind of need to understand the shape of how
29:29numbers come together. And so, I mean, I think one of the big debates is like, should we still teach
29:34our kids to program computers, even though you're going to have these, um, these tools in the future
29:40that are just so much more powerful than anything that we have now to produce incredibly complicated
29:46pieces of software? I think the answer to that is probably yes, because, um, I think teaching someone
29:54how to code is teaching them a way to think rigorously and that even if they're not doing most of the code
30:01production, I think it's important that you kind of have the ability to think in that way. And I think
30:06it's going to just make you generally a better thinker and better person. Um, so yeah, maybe
30:13that's like this generation's version of calculators. It's like, so you'll, you'll want to, you want to
30:18use the calculator, but, um, you'll also want to be able to generally do without it. Other ones like
30:23language. I don't know. I mean, different people can come out. I mean, I think this is one of the
30:27interesting questions about parenting these days is like, um, is, is just kind of like what, what's important
30:34to, to teach your, your kids and, and an era where so much is going to change over the time that
30:40they're even in school language. I think you can make similar arguments. I know there's a lot of
30:44it's like, it's probably going to be less functionally relevant in the future to learn
30:48multiple languages, but it sort of helps you think in different ways. Um, you know, I've found from the
30:54languages that I've studied that a lot of it, yeah, you learn about the structure of your own language.
30:59You, you can, you know, you also learn about the culture, right? Because so much of
31:03how things are expressed in different places is tied to the nuance and the history of,
31:07of kind of what, how, how, so I think like you, that's all valuable and interesting stuff to get
31:12into, but then I don't know, at the same time, we only have so many hours in the day. So people need
31:17to prioritize what they're going to learn. And it may be that, okay, in a world with perfect
31:21translation, which by the way, we basically just announced on the Ray-Ban Meta is that now you're
31:25going to be able to just like, you go to different countries. We're starting out.
31:29Yeah. We're, we're starting out with just a few languages, but we'll roll it out to more. And
31:33you know, you'll be, you could be traveling anywhere and you have your glasses and they
31:36just translate in real time in your ear. Um, so it's wild. Um, yeah. So I think people are
31:41going to need to choose what, what they want to focus on going forward.
31:45How did the developments that we've been talking about in AI intersect with social media and the
31:51platforms that most people use today? There's a future where there's generated images and generated
31:59text and maybe AI influencers. How does generative AI change how social media feels in the future?
32:07Yeah. I mean, I think that that's, that's a really deep one. Um, you know, there's already been one big
32:13shift, which is that social media started out as people primarily interacting with their friends.
32:20And now it is, you know, at least half of the content is basically people interacting with
32:25creators or content that's not created by people who they've kind of personally know.
32:32So we sort of, or sort of already have that paradigm. And I think AI is probably going to
32:38accelerate that. It will give all these people additional tools, right? So your friends will create
32:44kind of funnier memes and more interesting content. Um,
32:49that'll come from a lot of different ways. I think some of it will be, okay, your friends have
32:52glasses and they capture a bunch of stuff. And before they might've not been able to edit it to
32:58make it interesting, or maybe it was just too much work, or they didn't even realize that they
33:01captured something amazing. But now the AI is like, Hey, I like made this thing for you
33:05out of your content. Um, and it's like, okay, that's awesome. Like people enjoy that
33:09creators, obviously kind of much more specialized skills are going to be able to use even more
33:17advanced AI tools to make more compelling content. But then I think that there will be a bunch of
33:21kind of green field type stuff where maybe in the future, there will be content that is purely
33:29generated by AI, by the system personalized for you. Maybe it's summarizing things that are out there
33:37that, that are going to be interesting. Maybe it's, um, just producing something funny that
33:42makes you laugh. This is going to be like a very kind of deep zone that, um, that there's a lot to,
33:48to experiment with. I know there are going to be AI creators as well as creators building AI
33:53versions of themselves. I mean, that's a thing that we just, um, showed to connect is, is basically,
34:00I mean, the, if you're a creator, one of the big challenges is like, all right,
34:03there are only so many hours in the day and your community probably has a nearly unlimited demand
34:09to interact with you and you want to interact with them because you're trying to grow your
34:12community. I mean, that's both socially and from a business perspective, that's sort of,
34:16you know, growing the community is an important part of what every creator does. So, okay, if we can
34:21make it so that each creator can basically make an, like an AI artifact that their community can
34:29interact with, people will be clear that it's not the actual creator themselves, but it's almost
34:33like a piece of digital art that you're producing, like an interactive sculpture or something that
34:38it's like, it's like you train it to, here's the context that I wanted to have. Here's the topics I
34:42wanted to communicate on. Here's stuff that I wanted to stay away from. Um, you're giving your
34:48community something to interact with when you can't be there to kind of answer all the questions.
34:52And I think that that's going to be super compelling. So there's like all these interesting
34:58things, but I think it's, um, AI, it's kind of like the internet in a way where it's probably
35:05going to change almost every field and almost every feature of every application that we use.
35:12Um, it seems sort of hyperbolic to say that, but I do think that's true. And it's just hard to
35:18sort of enumerate all the different things upfront, but I think that over the next five to 10 years,
35:23we're just going to explore the impacts in each of these areas. And it's going to be like an
35:27amazing amount of innovation and really exciting. I feel two things simultaneously when you say that,
35:33I feel both like I really want to be optimistic about the future of these platforms. And I obviously
35:41have gained so much from an enormous pace of change, right? Like everything that we're doing now.
35:46And what I actually feel is worried. I feel some specific concerns around the way that,
35:54you know, I might communicate with an audience and the way that they might respond to that,
35:57or the way that human communication might change, but also more generalized,
36:02just sort of fear of the pace of change and worry. And I don't think I'm alone in that feeling.
36:06Yeah. And you're supposed to be the optimist.
36:08I know. And I'm curious, like how you talk to people who feel that way. What concerns do you
36:15feel are most legitimate? And what do you feel most misunderstood?
36:21I think the pace of change is always a concerning thing, right? There is a lot of uncertainty about how
36:30things will go in the future. And we're all going to get really amazing new tools to do
36:36both our hobbies and our jobs. And
36:42they'll make it so we can do better work and have better lives. But at least on the professional
36:46side, it's going to be our responsibility to keep up with that, or else it's going to be difficult
36:51for us to compete with other people who are doing a good job of kind of keeping up with the new trend.
36:55So I get it. I mean, I think, um, um, you know, especially in the, you know, line of, of work
37:01of being a creator and it's a very sort of competitive space. I don't think that like
37:05creators necessarily think about it as competitive, but it is right. It's like, it's, you know, and, um,
37:09um, and so I get it. I think that this is going to make it so that like the quality of work that
37:17people produce and how interesting it is and how much they can communicate and
37:21like really efficiently is, is just going to kind of go through the roof. But, um,
37:28but when you're staring down a set of changes, like, you know, that there's some big change coming
37:35and you don't know what it is, that's always a time of anxiety. So I get it.
37:40If I take my creator hat off and I'm just a person who is young ish, starting out my career ish,
37:48uh, starting out building a family, how would you advise someone like me to
37:57prepare well for the future that we're headed toward to be able to
38:04learn new skills now, or just think about this future in an educated way?
38:08Yeah. I mean, I just think maintaining curiosity about things is, is important. I, I do think we
38:14can overstate to what extent the next 10 years is going to be sort of different from the last 10 or
38:2015. I mean, a ton of stuff changed over the last 10 or 15 years too. It's not like this is the only
38:24time in history where there's some technology that's going to make it so that there's new opportunities
38:29and things change. Um, the internet coming into maturity and everyone having smartphones has already
38:35rewired things dramatically. And I mean, maybe the next period will be a somewhat bigger change or
38:42maybe it won't. Um, I think it'll feel different to different people, but, um, I don't think this
38:50is like going from zero to one. It's not like, okay, everything's just kind of been normal. And now,
38:54like now it's about to change. It's like the technology evolves over time and, and like the opportunities
38:59that we have evolve and improve. And I think that that's like the people who do well, I think are, are
39:04people who are generally, um, curious about it and, and dig in and, and try to use it to live better
39:13lives rather than the people who, who basically, you know, try to fight it or in, in some way.
39:21One thing that I really want to ask you about is open source.
39:25Yeah. I think imagine that we're talking to an audience that has maybe heard that term,
39:31but doesn't have any real idea of how that might impact them in the development of AI.
39:37Yeah. How would you explain the reasonable debate that people in your field are having
39:41about this right now? Well, I think there are two pieces. I mean, so what does open source mean?
39:46It means that people can build a lot of different things, right? So at a high level, I look at
39:52the vision that a bunch of companies have, right? So open AI, Google, they're building an AI, right?
39:57Like one AI that I think in general, they're like, okay, this is going to be, it's like, you're going
40:02to use, they think you're going to use Gemini or chat GPT for like all of the different things that
40:06you want to interact with. And at a high level, that's just not how I think the world is going to
40:10go. I think we're going to have a lot of different AI systems, just like we're going to have,
40:15we have a lot of different apps. Um, I think in the future, every business, just like they have
40:20a website and a phone number and an email address and a social media account is also going to have
40:26an AI that can interact with, with their customers to help them sell things, to help them do support.
40:31Um, I think a lot of creators will have their own AIs, right? I think like a lot of people will,
40:37will interact with, with a bunch of different things. There's a question of, okay, do you want
40:41a future that's fundamentally kind of very concentrated and where you're interacting with
40:47kind of one system for everything? Or do you want one where a lot of different people are building,
40:53um, a lot of different AIs and systems just kind of like, you probably didn't want there to be,
40:58you know, just one app or just one website. It's like a richer world when there's a diversity of
41:02different things. So that's one piece is just giving people the ability to build it themselves.
41:07And what open source does, it makes it so that everyone can take and modify the model and build
41:10stuff on top of it. Um, which is different from, um, the kind of closed and centralized approach.
41:17Um, the safety debate is a specific part of this, which is, um,
41:25um, in a world where AI gets smarter and smarter, what's the way that we have the highest chance
41:34of, of having a, a kind of positive future and not having a lot of the safety concerns. And I think
41:40some people think that, um, if we keep the model closed and don't give it to a lot of developers,
41:48that should make it safer because then you don't get bad developers doing bad things with the model.
41:56Um, historically, I think what we've seen with open source is actually the opposite,
42:03which is that this is not the first open source project, right? I mean, this is obviously,
42:08this has been a thing in the industry for decades. And I think what we've traditionally seen is that
42:13open source software is safer and more secure largely because you put it out there, more people
42:20can scrutinize it because they can see all parts of the system. And then there are inevitably issues
42:26with any software. There are bugs, there are security issues. And initially with open source,
42:31people thought, Hey, if you're putting the software out there and there are holes in it,
42:35isn't everyone just going to go exploit those holes and especially the bad guys. But it turned out
42:40that it is sort of in this counterintuitive way that by making, by adding more scrutiny to the
42:46systems, the holes became apparent quicker and then we're fixed. And then people roll out a new
42:51version, just like we roll out a new version of our models, right? Llama 3, Llama 3.1, Llama 3.2,
42:56everyone upgrades. Um, so I think the same thing is going to happen here. I think it's sort of this
43:01counterintuitive thing where even though I think there's some concern around, all right, are bad guys
43:10going to do bad things with these models? I actually think you just get a kind of smarter
43:16and safer model for everyone. The more it's rolled out and the more kind of scrutiny is on it. Um,
43:22and then part of that is we get feedback and we make the model safer. So that as we roll it out to
43:26more people, it's safer for more people to use. So I think that the history of open source and the
43:31software industry generally would suggest that open source is going to lead to a more prosperous and
43:36safer future. Our show is called Huge If True. And what I mean by that is kind of testing the most
43:44optimistic, non-obvious thing. And so my question to you is, what is the biggest open, genuine question
43:51on your mind right now? In which field? You're in so many. Um, I am particularly curious about the
44:05combination of AI and hardware, but I realized that we've covered a lot. So I'm curious the
44:11direction you'd take this on a question that occupies you right now. Gosh, I mean, I think
44:15maybe one that's a little more AI specific is there a current set of methods that seem to be
44:22scaling very well, right? So with past AI architectures, you could kind of feed an AI system
44:30a certain amount of data and use a certain amount of compute, but eventually it hit a plateau.
44:35And one of the interesting things about these new transformer based architectures over the last,
44:41you know, five to 10 years is that we haven't found the end yet. So that leads to this dynamic where
44:49Llama 3, you know, we could train on, you know, 10 to 20,000 GPUs. Llama 4,
44:55we could train on more than a hundred thousand GPUs. Llama 5, we can plan to scale even further.
45:01And there's just an interesting question of how far that goes. It's totally possible that at some
45:08point we just like hit a limit and just like previous systems, there's an asymptote and it
45:12doesn't keep on growing, but it's also possible that that limit is not going to happen anytime soon.
45:20And that we're going to be able to keep on just building more clusters and generating more,
45:25you know, synthetic data to train the systems, and that they're just going to keep on getting
45:30more and more useful for people for quite a while to come. And it's a really big and high stakes
45:37question, I think for, for the companies, because we're basically making these bets on how much
45:43infrastructure to build out for the future. And this is like hundreds of billions of dollars of
45:48infrastructure. So like, I'm clearly betting that this is going to keep scaling for a while,
45:54but it's one of the big questions I think in the field, because it is possible that it doesn't,
45:59you know, that obviously would lead to a very different world where it's, I mean, I'm sure
46:04people still figure it out eventually, just need to make some new fundamental improvements to the
46:08architecture in some way. But that might be a somewhat longer trajectory for, okay, maybe,
46:14you know, the, the kind of fundamental AI advances, slow down for a bit, and we just take some time to
46:20build new products around this. Or it could be the case, and that's what I'm betting on,
46:25that the fundamental AI will just continue advancing for quite a while, and that we're
46:29going to get both a new set of products that are just really compelling in all these ways,
46:34and that the technology landscape and what's possible will just continue being dynamic over like
46:38a 20-year period. And, um, that's probably what I'd guess is going to happen, but it, I think it's
46:44one of the bigger questions in the industry and kind of for technology across the world today.
46:48Is there anything else that you want to say?
46:52I don't know. I think we're good.
46:53Awesome. Amazing.
46:54Yeah.
46:55Thank you so much for doing this.
46:56Yeah, no, thank you.
47:27Yeah.
47:27Yeah.
47:27Yeah.
47:30Yeah.
47:31Yeah.
47:35Yeah.
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