- 7/3/2025
The latest episode of Democratic Newsroom delves into India's Pakistan policy after the Pahalgam terror attack in Jammu and Kashmir.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome. Good evening. You're watching Democratic Newsroom. I'm Akshita Nantagopal.
00:21We had a very interesting episode of the Democratic Newsroom last week.
00:24Since then, a lot has happened. You've seen, of course, in the last 24 hours, a lot of Pakistani artists, cricketers, channels, YouTube channels, Instagram handles being unblocked and then blocked again.
00:39The Asia Cup, the nod has been given for the Pakistani hockey team to come to India to play the Asia Cup.
00:45So questions right now being asked about what really India's Pakistan policy is.
00:50That's our focus in this edition of Democratic Newsroom. Is India's Pakistan policy inconsistent?
00:57I have with me here in our studios Rajdeep Sardesai, Pranay Upadhyay of India Today Global, Anjali Istval, to my left, Gaurav Savant and Geeta Mohan, a Foreign Affairs Editor.
01:08Rajdeep, to you first. Last week, of course, we had a very animated conversation about this,
01:13where you said that, you know, we should have ties with Pakistan culturally and also in sports.
01:20So are you happy that the Asia Cup is moving forward? Did you think that was a good step to unblock these handles?
01:26This has nothing to do with my happiness and sadness, Akshita.
01:30All I can say, and I'm going to be very careful this time, given what happened last week,
01:38that I believe we've been, frankly, consistently consistent with this government.
01:43Barring the first few years, when you had Prime Minister Modi invite Nawaz Sharif for his swearing-in,
01:48then the jhapiyas and papiyas that followed in 2015 in Lahore,
01:53by and large, particularly over the last five years, this government has been very clear.
01:57No Indian team has visited Pakistan. No Indian sports team has visited Pakistan.
02:02Cultural exchanges have been limited. Visas are restricted.
02:07So I don't see any major change. Yes, one YouTube channel here and there may have got unblocked,
02:13largely because sometimes the left hand in the bureaucracy doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
02:17Someone must have said June 30th as the last date for blocking,
02:21and then suddenly realize, oh, it's 1st July, and woken up to the reality of it.
02:24That happens in any government. So I'm going to give the government the benefit of doubt for that.
02:28But I do believe, and I said this last week, and I say it again,
02:32that eventually some element of sporting and cultural exchanges are inevitable.
02:36I'm not saying it will change the relationship substantially.
02:41It will not enter. It will not perhaps even constrain the Pakistani army state.
02:47But the truth of the matter is, you have cultural exchanges and sporting exchanges as part of normal civilized behavior.
02:58Do you think the government recognizes that too, and that's why you're seeing things like the Asia Cup moving forward?
03:03No, look, I think the government will say that this is an international tournament.
03:07This is not a bilateral series. We haven't invited Pakistan hockey team to play against India.
03:11They're playing in a World Cup. They're playing in an Asia Cup. They'll have reasons for it.
03:16It's all very well. In fact, last week, I forgot to tell you, you should find out from Captain Amrinder Singh of the BJP.
03:23One of Amrinder Singh's pet projects was to get the two Punjabs to play each other in sports, in Khabadi and other sports.
03:29And from what he told me, it was hugely successful for a while.
03:31It all depends on the political climate.
03:33Now you're still in the post-Pahalgaam doom, and therefore, you believe that these cultural exchanges, sporting contacts should not take place.
03:42Who knows what will happen tomorrow? We've seen it with Mr. Vajpayee.
03:45We've seen it with Manmohan Singh. We've seen it with several prime ministers.
03:48Havaa badalti hai. Ham nahi badalti hai.
03:51I can tell you, ham nahi badalti hai.
03:53I still believe that there are lots of decent people in Pakistan who we should be communicating with.
03:59Gaurav Savan's comment should be heard by Pakistanis, and Gaurav Savan must also be open enough to listen to what Pakistanis say.
04:08Let there be YouTube channels on both sides. What's the problem? We have nothing to hide.
04:12If we have nothing to hide, open up the airwaves.
04:15Gaurav, listen to both sides. That they should listen to you, you should listen to them.
04:19I wish Rajdeep and several others in India would listen to the Pakistani side,
04:23when Mubashir Lukman, a Pakistani anchor, goes on record to say that he considers Indian actresses to be Malay Ghanimat or war booty and sex slaves.
04:33That's the civil society of Pakistan that we're talking about.
04:36And it's not just one sundry, stray statement that comes from Mubashir Lukman who considers Indian women to be sex slaves and war booty.
04:45It's actually their psyche. Point one, point two, here the people on the streets, they say exactly the same thing.
04:51During Operation Sindur, when their trucks were, army trucks were moving to the border,
04:55they were saying, oh, bring back Indian women as sex slaves.
04:58So, you know, you must have cultural exchanges with such elements who want you to be, you know, their sex slaves.
05:05That's the mindset that that country has.
05:08Yes, we keep changing, we are not consistent, but Pakistan since 15th of August 1947 has been consistent, consistently bleeding India.
05:23Whether it was sending terrorists backed by Pakistan army into Jammu and Kashmir, raping, murdering, plundering people,
05:31that massacre, you may have forgotten in Baramula when nuns were raped and killed, but then Kashmir remembers that.
05:39And it started in 1947. It's consistently happened 1990.
05:44No, hear me out. You let Rajdeep complete his point. Let me complete my point.
05:471990, Hindu women were raped and murdered in Kashmir.
05:53You had mosque loudspeakers being used for saying,
05:56you've had instances of Kashmiri women being gang raped and soared into half by these terrorists.
06:04You want cultural exchanges with such people? Sure, go ahead.
06:07But you're just bringing more doom and gloom to your future generations.
06:11When you say inconsistent, we're inconsistent. Are you saying the government is?
06:15Government, civil society, because we are filled with this notion that they want to be friends with you.
06:21Is there anything to show since 1947 that they want to be friends with you?
06:26Has anybody in Pakistan shown that willingness, that consistency?
06:32If they are scared for their lives and they are scared of their army,
06:36I'd rather be, you know, I'd rather keep that terror at an arm's length.
06:41You know, if there is a mad dog, I wouldn't go and pet that mad dog.
06:46I'd either shoot it or stay at an arm's length.
06:49He's using the same language that he accuses the Pakistani anchors of.
06:53If you go through Gaurav Savan, what some of the things he says...
06:55Oh, I'm sorry.
06:56I did not say Pakistanis are sex slaves.
06:57I did not say Pakistanis are sex slaves.
07:00I don't want that women to be sex slaves.
07:01You use false language and if we start talking about gang rape and, you know,
07:06the tragedy of this country...
07:08One minute time, let him finish this.
07:10Yes, it happened.
07:10The tragedy of this country is that there have been awful communal riots
07:14that have taken place within our country as well.
07:16So, that's why we give Pakistan a clean chat.
07:18Oh, let us finish.
07:19We give Pakistan a clean chat.
07:20Well, I'll give you a chance to respond.
07:22I'll give you a chance to respond.
07:23I'm not giving...
07:23I am against broad generalizations.
07:26That's all I'm saying.
07:27I agree with Gaurav Savan.
07:28There are people in Pakistan, anchors, unfortunately, even some cricket players,
07:34who speak a language that is unacceptable.
07:37Unacceptable totally.
07:38I agree with Gaurav Savan.
07:39An anchor who speaks such language should be isolated, should be ostracized.
07:45Couldn't agree with him more.
07:46But just because a few anchors speak that, you can't generalize that about a nation.
07:50And sadly, there are people in this country today who are mimicking their language
07:55rather than showing that we are different.
07:59That's my problem.
08:01That we are better.
08:02That we are better.
08:02You know, if they go low, we can't go lower.
08:04We should be going higher.
08:05We should be prepared.
08:07And it's not an isolated, it's not an isolated language about them.
08:12Shahid Afridi, you know, when Hindus were being singled out and massacred at Pehelgaam,
08:1725 Hindus, their name, their religion was asked and then they were shot dead at point blank range.
08:23What was Shahid Afridi saying?
08:25Toast of this Lutyans cabal in Delhi.
08:27Shahid Afridi, what was he saying?
08:29You have 8 lakh soldiers.
08:30What's to that effect?
08:31You have 8 lakh soldiers.
08:33Pehelgaam happens.
08:34And we want to deal, we want to open our doors and hearts to such elements.
08:41I agree with you.
08:42No, no, no, Gaurav.
08:43He's agreeing, he's agreeing with you.
08:45No, no, I agree with Gaurav.
08:47Who is courting Shahid Afridi?
08:50Not the Lutyans cabal.
08:51It's your BCCI representatives and cricketers who were spotted with him in Dubai.
08:56They were having TV shows with him.
08:58They are sitting on the stadia.
08:59Ministers in this government were sitting with the same Shahid Afridi.
09:02My limited point.
09:03What a shame.
09:05So therefore your generalizations that you make, Lutyans, cabal, you know, don't work anymore.
09:10This is very nice in a TV program.
09:12I will show you all the photographs of who was sitting with Shahid Afridi.
09:15Sure.
09:15And who's giving him contract.
09:16Guys, guys, instead of me calling each other, I have just one thing to say.
09:21I just want to reply to Gaurav about one thing he asked.
09:26And that is when has Pakistan shown that it wants to talk.
09:29I'm not saying that Pakistan is an angel and we should always be talking to them.
09:34But we have seen instances like the Qatarpur corridor, which many of us covered.
09:39We went over there.
09:40And that was a signal.
09:43At that point of time, the government wanted to talk.
09:45So the regime changes.
09:47There is influence of the Pakistani army.
09:49And that is why we see such, you know, hatred coming from there.
09:54But as we've talked about it last time also, and we've talked about it personally also, Gaurav,
09:58I do feel we culturally are the same.
10:02And if they don't have a good culture, according to you right now, then why not exchange our culture?
10:07Give them our culture.
10:08Let's make them better.
10:09Pranay?
10:09I have no interest in making them better.
10:11I have no interest in making them better.
10:13Pranay, Pranay, Pranay.
10:14I have no interest in making them better.
10:14Stay away from them.
10:15Yes, Pranay.
10:16Anjali, there is a point.
10:17As far as the Qatarpur corridor project is concerned, of course, we all have covered.
10:21We have gone there.
10:22But you see what happened.
10:24Qatarpur corridor process was a long-pending process.
10:27Pakistan used it for their own political agenda.
10:30And we could see, you know, how the Khalistani project was coupled with the Qatarpur corridor project.
10:35And we could see the Bajwa policy.
10:36We could see Asim Munir's project.
10:38One poster of a Khalistani during the program is not…
10:44No, Anjali, you have not been to Nankana Sahib.
10:46We have covered that process.
10:47And Nankana Sahib, if you see, that consistently they have been using that place.
10:51Unfortunately, sorry to say, but that holy place is being used for the political objectives.
10:56We know the individuals, those who are guarding the Gurdwaras there.
10:59And they are…
11:00So, good.
11:01Good if you have been there.
11:02Then how it is being used?
11:04We have to…
11:04We can't overlook the fact.
11:06But still, Qatarpur corridor is still active.
11:08We are giving those permits, but at least the government has to check those, you know,
11:12who gets the permit and who travels across the border.
11:15I agree with you.
11:15And if I may, if I may, if the Pakistanis are so good…
11:18Yes, and Gita must also respond to this and so must all of us.
11:22If the Pakistanis are so good, why are they forcibly converting Hindus, Christians and Sikhs
11:27in Pakistan, if they want good relations, let minorities flourish in Pakistan, let that
11:32happen.
11:33That doesn't happen.
11:34See, we're going back to the same, same debate that we had last time around and it's
11:39not just about the ban on the YouTube channels and the stars anymore because the same thing
11:46Gaurav, I said to you last time around as well, that it is the Pakistani state.
11:50Mea Mithu is not Pakistani state.
11:53State-sponsored, state-supported.
11:56All those extreme, radical, extremist elements in Pakistan are state-supported, otherwise they
12:02won't thrive.
12:02No, so how do you differentiate?
12:03How do you differentiate, Gita, for example?
12:05But the civilians, the civilians and people over there…
12:07Let me give you an example.
12:08…are different.
12:08Not everybody is the same one.
12:10So let me give you an example.
12:11You have to understand that this is a…
12:11For example, Ahania Amir, who's so popular, who's so popular, she's an actor, when she puts
12:16out a post where she goes ahead and refers to India and India forces as cowardly, speaks
12:22about Operation Sindhu, doesn't condemn the Pahalgam terror attack, what do you then deem
12:26them as?
12:27They're artists.
12:28They're not extremists.
12:29Akshita, they're Pakistanis.
12:30So then where do you differentiate?
12:31It's a military operation.
12:32They will side with their government.
12:34I'm not saying…
12:35Condemn terror?
12:36I am not…
12:37I'm not a spokesperson for Hania Amir.
12:40I'm talking…
12:41And most of these stars are kids of generals, kids of military officers.
12:48They have such strong military backing.
12:50They come from very affluent class.
12:52I'm talking about…
12:53Hania Amir…
12:54Hania Amir…
12:55Hania Amir…
12:56Hania Amir…
12:57Hania Amir…
12:58Hania Amir…
12:59Hania Amir…
13:00Hania Amir…
13:01Hania Amir…
13:02Hania Amir…
13:03We are not putting the Pakistani agenda.
13:04We should not…
13:05Just hold on…
13:05Hania Amir…
13:06Susan指, you have to listen to the Pakistani agenda.
13:08I am just saying…
13:09My limited point…
13:10My limited point…
13:11My limited point is don't make broad generalizations.
13:14Yes.
13:15Gaurav Saman mentioned an anchor who used certain language.
13:19Unacceptable.
13:20Gaurav Saman mentioned Shahid Afridi.
13:22The kind of attitude he's shown, the kind of remarks he's made.
13:26Unacceptable.
13:27For every Shahid Afridi, I will also introduce Gaurav Saman to Zaheer Abbas.
13:36And you should meet Zaheer Abbas and you should talk to Zaheer Abbas, the great Pakistani cricketer,
13:40about how he's built relationships with India across the border.
13:44Likewise, in every field of life, you will have people who will spew venom, hate against India.
13:51Unacceptable. We have every...
13:52But unfortunately, there are also people in this country who today spew venom and hate on the other side.
13:57And they feed on each other. I refuse to be part of these two extreme groups who are feeding on each other.
14:03That's my problem. And the more we deny each other a chance to talk to each other with civility,
14:09the more the extremes on both sides get powerful. That's my worry.
14:13I am trying to... Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I continue to hope.
14:17I know of a letter-writing competition that young Indian school kids in Mumbai had
14:21with young Indian school kids in Pakistan. It was very successful.
14:24That doesn't mean that the Pakistani state has changed.
14:27That doesn't mean that there are hate-filled, venomous people who target India.
14:32That doesn't mean terror will stop.
14:34I am only saying the less space you give to civility,
14:38the more you allow, empower the extremes on both sides of the border.
14:43That's where I have a problem. That's my limited point.
14:45That Gaurav...
14:45Yes, young man here wanted to speak. Sorry.
14:47Gaurav...
14:48Gaurav is not young, they say.
14:50Gaurav is getting old.
14:51I get it. I come to you, Pranay.
14:53Gaurav, quickly, your response.
14:55There's good and bad on both sides.
14:56You indulge with the good, you communicate with the good.
14:58You know, I completely agree with Government of India when they say
15:01you cannot equate the perpetrator of terror and the victim of terror.
15:05And like Donald Trump in his lack of wisdom
15:09and some others, again, lack of wisdom or otherwise,
15:13they seem to be equating India and Pakistan.
15:16You cannot equate the two.
15:18The Pakistani civil society...
15:20I haven't...
15:21The Pakistani civil society, if it wants good relations with India,
15:26after almost 80 years of bleeding at the hands of the Pakistani state,
15:30I want evidence.
15:32You know, there's a saying,
15:34in God I trust,
15:36everywhere else I want data.
15:38I want evidence that Pakistan wants good relations with India.
15:42Otherwise, I do not want to open either my home or my heart
15:45and bleed again and again and again.
15:49I don't.
15:50You know, let them be happy.
15:51Look, I'll tell you what these Pakistanis do.
15:52Hear me out.
15:53Pakistanis mint money in India.
15:55Their film industry is a disaster.
15:57Their cricketing will not work without India.
16:00So, they want to come to India.
16:01They want to make money in India.
16:03The moment they make money in India,
16:05they again want to go back to Pakistan and spew venom.
16:07So, you know, we named a few.
16:09I have a long list which runs into seven, eight pages.
16:12Mahira Khan.
16:13Operation Sindur.
16:15Seriously, cowardly act.
16:17She has experienced hate and rhetoric.
16:19Fawad Khan.
16:20This is an attack on terrorist training camp.
16:22Fawad Khan is supposed to be this heartthrob.
16:23I don't know why.
16:24But Fawad Khan.
16:25What does he say?
16:26Deepest condolences to the families of those killed and injured.
16:30In India's targeting of Pahawalpur, Mureed Khe and Pakistanis.
16:34But all of these are Pakistanis.
16:35So, no, no.
16:36Then why should they make money in India?
16:38Their media is portraying the attacks on the terrorist organization as attack on civilians.
16:45So, imagine, imagine, we are hitting Laskar in our position.
16:50If media is accused of peddling lies.
16:54If media is accused of peddling lies everywhere in our side of the border also and their side of the border also.
17:02Okay.
17:03So, maybe they are also falling victims to that.
17:05So, if a common man over there believes what their media, obviously a spineless media, let's go by what the popular opinion is.
17:13If they are telling them the civilians died, they will write those things.
17:17So, not that I am saying, but I don't know.
17:19I have not read his tweet.
17:21Did he use bad language?
17:22Why are we so desperate to get out of the country?
17:24You see, you know, what the two sides, what citizens of the two sides say during a war-like situation, each one of them will wear their national flag, their national identity with pride.
17:39Our TV channels, Anjali said spineless media.
17:43Let us not, one minute, let us all also introspect.
17:47Ours is the media which said we have marched into Islamabad, that we have bombed Karachi port.
17:52We bombed, we bombed, we bombed.
17:53We bombed, we bombed, we bombed, we bombed, we bombed.
17:56No, no, no, no, no.
17:56I don't have to say, one minute.
17:58One at a time.
17:59We, when you are in a war-like situation, you are facing propaganda battles on both sides.
18:04Actors, citizens, civil society all get caught in these propaganda battles on both sides.
18:09That's the reality.
18:11If in normal times people use the kind of words, some of the words that Gaurav said actors have used or anchors have used, unacceptable, they should be ostracized and they will be.
18:21Civil, please understand.
18:22No, that's not me.
18:23One minute, one minute.
18:24One minute, one minute.
18:25On both sides of the border, I maintain there are extreme voices and there are voices of moderation.
18:31Unfortunately, in the last 30 years, the voices of extreme have now taken over.
18:35They've got normalized and therefore voices of moderation, if you want to call me as a voice of moderation, is branded today anti-national.
18:42That's what's happened, unfortunately, in the last 30 years.
18:45I'm more than happy to live with it.
18:48I will still persist in ensuring that the voices of civility, I'm making a distinction, voices of civility will be encouraged, voices of extremity in Pakistan, I will condemn them and I will call them out.
19:00I want to make that distinction.
19:01I want you to call them out.
19:02Unfortunately, in this country, the so-called voice of extremity who call people like me anti-national are the ones who engage Shahid Afridi.
19:12Who go with Shahid Afridi are spotted sitting in a VVIP enclosure during the Asia Cup.
19:17And that's not something I want to call them out.
19:19No, no, both of you agree on that.
19:20Let's be very clear.
19:21Both of you agree at least on one thing, which is that, you know, you should go ahead and call out the extremist elements who make this kind of comment.
19:28Of course you should.
19:28We've got to a point.
19:30No, no, first let him make his point, then I want to comment.
19:32Achita, the problem remains the misery of Pakistan, the very founding of Pakistan.
19:37Pakistan is based, founded on that hardcore religious extremist idea.
19:42And that is a fact.
19:43We have to accept that fact.
19:44And if you see, you know, I'm sure many people in here have read the book of Hussain Haqqani, Pakistan Military to Mosque.
19:51The military and mosque, you know, relationship in building Pakistan and keeping Pakistan intact is the very basis of Pakistan.
19:58And, you know, we all agree that rational voices are there on either side of the border.
20:03Yes, they are there.
20:04But how much importance they get, how much voice do they have, are they marginalized in the Pakistan quality?
20:10Of course they're marginalized.
20:11They will get more marginalized if you are involved in it.
20:16Please understand this.
20:17You say Pakistan is founded on religion, on the mosque.
20:20The truth is within Pakistan, look at the battles that are taking place within communities.
20:25We've seen battles at various levels.
20:28But that's not our problem.
20:29No, it's not our problem.
20:30I am saying in any society, there will be multiple voices.
20:37My limited point is, our attempt should be to encourage the voices of civility and moderation and at the same time, at the same time, isolate, target, condemn and ostracize the voices of extremists.
20:50Can we do that, can we do that, can we do that, can we do that, why can't we do that?
20:54If Bashir Madra can travel to Pakistan, yes, he was welcome.
20:57If Javed Akhtar travelled to Pakistan, yes, he was welcome there.
21:00So, Faiz Ahmed, Faiz visited India, he was welcomed here.
21:04But now we don't want to do that also.
21:05Mini Niazi came to India.
21:06That's my point.
21:07And even he...
21:07You're right.
21:08There was a time when we did that.
21:09Now we don't do it.
21:10What did Vajpayee said?
21:11Vajpayee said that every peace initiative was taken by India during his time.
21:16Agreed.
21:16He said that every peace initiative...
21:18Let Pakistan take the peace initiative after demonstrative action against India's centric terror.
21:23No, this relationship has already been an action.
21:25No, so let Pakistan...
21:25I agree with you on that.
21:26Yeah, because that's a fact.
21:28Rajdi, everything that I say is backed by empirical evidence of Pakistani hatred towards India.
21:35And I fail and I will not fall for people saying false equivalence between India and Pakistan.
21:42There is no equivalence between a state's point of radical Islamist terror and a victim.
21:46But let me quickly make the point that I want to make in Pakistan.
21:50You still want to make a point?
21:52Yeah, I am trying to.
21:53I am trying to.
21:54I am trying to.
21:54I am definitely trying to.
21:56I simply want to say if Pakistan wants good relations with India, if their civil society wants good relations with India,
22:03let them show action on ground.
22:06And one thing, take action against Hafiz Saeed.
22:08That's the least we can expect them to do.
22:10Dawud Ibrahim also.
22:11Take action against Dawud Ibrahim also.
22:13Dawud Ibrahim also.
22:13That's the civil society's responsibility.
22:15Then let them put pressure on the Pakistani state.
22:18And if they cannot, then please spare me.
22:21I do not want any more Indians to die for this Amman ki Asha.
22:24There is no Amman ki Asha.
22:25And we are...
22:26Pakistan, we fail to realize that.
22:31That has always remained a paradoxical situation that Amman ki Asha and Shuja Pasha.
22:34But when has any of this been a deterrence?
22:39Has Pakistan stopped its terror factories just because we stopped talking or we condemn everybody,
22:46every Pakistani as a terrorist?
22:49If someone tries to intrude your space, what will you do, Gita?
22:52You just have to guard your fences.
22:54When has it been a deterrence?
22:56But if you say that I don't want to do this because I don't want to see people die,
23:00means that you're saying if we do this, we'll stop seeing terrorism.
23:04We haven't had a 26-11 movement of terror attacks.
23:07Do we have to?
23:08But, Helga, okay, again, hear me out.
23:10We've had Pathan Khour.
23:12Do we recognize the fact, do we recognize the fact that right now the situation...
23:19Again, you see, then there are four people making one point and if I'm to come to...
23:24No, they're not.
23:24You're the only person speaking around.
23:28Post-2019 Balakot attack, we haven't had a single terror attack outside Jammu and Kashmir.
23:35Post-Balakot, point one.
23:37Point two, we haven't had a 26-11 Mumbai terror attack.
23:40We haven't had a 26-11.
23:42One minute, can I come?
23:43No, no, one minute.
23:43It's gone up.
23:44Again, you must leave.
23:45No, no, one minute.
23:46Sorry, I'm sorry.
23:47Time out.
23:49Time out.
23:50Time out.
23:51Time out.
23:52Time out.
23:53Hold on.
23:54We cannot go on with this.
23:56Hold on.
23:56Am I right in saying that between 2008, November, when the Mumbai attack took place, till 2015,
24:01for about seven years, for about seven years, we had outside...
24:04Just the same point that you're making.
24:06We had no major terror attack outside Jammu and Kashmir.
24:08German Bakery, German Bakery, German Bakery, German Bakery, German Bakery was 2009.
24:13German Bakery was 2009.
24:14Hold on.
24:15There was one or two, but the Broadway Bazaar, there was no Bazaar.
24:18No, no, no, no.
24:19That was earlier.
24:20No, 2011.
24:21What I don't understand is, how is this related?
24:25Two people dying in 166.
24:26Hold on.
24:27Hold on.
24:28Two people dying in 166.
24:29Hold on.
24:30Sorry.
24:31Please go ahead.
24:32Time out.
24:33I wish I could mute.
24:34I can't mute in the studio.
24:35Anjali.
24:36Now, my point is, we've completely strayed.
24:38You know, either you talk about the fact that Indian government should now start thinking
24:43about building relationships and should start talking to Pakistan.
24:48Is that the point?
24:49No, we are not talking about that.
24:50No, no.
24:51We are talking about cultural and YouTube bans and what not.
24:54That is the lowest rung of any kind of action that anybody could do.
24:58No, so is that because of the fact that we are looking at an unprecedented situation
25:01of post-Pahalgam?
25:03How?
25:04We have seen other situations.
25:06We've seen 2016.
25:07We've seen attacks like this earlier.
25:10And banning channels and YouTube voices has never helped.
25:14So, I think…
25:15Why should Pakistanis make money out of India?
25:17Hold on.
25:18Hold on.
25:19Hold on.
25:20Hold on.
25:21Please.
25:22Hold on.
25:23Hold on.
25:24Hold on.
25:25Hold on.
25:26Hold on.
25:27Hold on.
25:28Operation Sindhuur is taking action on Paris.
25:31I know.
25:32You are saying if we listen to each other's YouTubers, they end up making money.
25:36My limited point is…
25:37Yes or no?
25:38One minute.
25:39In an age of information overload, what is far worse is information darkness.
25:43There is no information darkness in today's day and age.
25:45One minute.
25:46I think both sides need to hear each other out.
25:48You don't want to see some YouTuber who is spewing venom against India.
25:51You don't have to see him.
25:53Who has talked?
25:54You can block him.
25:55My limited point is…
25:56That's what the government has done.
25:57No, no.
25:58Please go ahead.
25:59Please go ahead.
26:00No, no.
26:01No, no.
26:02And then, the point is that the problem between the two countries is we take knee-jerk actions,
26:07we take ad hoc actions without a consistent long-term policy.
26:10My limited long-term policy.
26:11Yes.
26:12My limited long-term policy is simply this.
26:13Yes.
26:14And we saw it with Captain Amrinder Singh, I repeat, when he was Chief Minister of Punjab.
26:17He made a genuine effort to get the two Punjabi sides across the border to have sporting exchanges, cultural exchanges.
26:27And you can ask him.
26:28And you can ask him.
26:29He himself found.
26:30He himself found it was a major bridge builder.
26:33Now, I'm not saying it's going to change anything overnight.
26:36But when you have sanity restored in an insane atmosphere, it's something to be treasured.
26:42If I can speak to fellow journalists from Pakistan, let's say from a Jio TV, and we can have a conversation.
26:48What's wrong with that?
26:49Why should that not happen?
26:53Please understand.
26:54One minute.
26:55Before every major cricket match.
26:57One minute.
26:58Before every major cricket match, I can recall in the last several years,
27:01Aaj Tak and Jio TV would have joined programs where the aggers would speak to each other, cricketers would speak to each other.
27:07That's right.
27:08That's right.
27:09That's right.
27:10Now suddenly, after back, who is?
27:11No, no, who is?
27:12This is a husband.
27:13What are your double standards?
27:16In this channel only.
27:17Can I add something?
27:20That every time there is anything that you see forward movement between India and Pakistan, on people to people,
27:26you know who gets riled the most?
27:28It's the Pakistani military.
27:29To no end.
27:30And Gaurosawar.
27:31The Pakistani military.
27:32And Gaurosawar.
27:33Come on.
27:34Come on.
27:35It's true.
27:38He said it on the show.
27:39Can I just simply say that Rajdeep may think that there is a switch on and switch off mechanism in Pakistan terror towards India.
27:46No, no, I never said that.
27:47There is no switch off.
27:48I never said that.
27:49There is consistent.
27:50I never said that.
27:51It's only people like Rajdeep who switch off.
27:52No, no, please don't.
27:53Pakistan is continuously bleeding India.
27:55This is the right object.
27:56Again.
27:57One second.
27:58I'm sorry.
27:59I'm sorry.
28:00Time out.
28:01Time out.
28:02Time out.
28:03Time out.
28:04Time out.
28:05Unfortunately.
28:06No, no.
28:07One second.
28:08When nobody listens to the moderator, I will call.
28:09When nobody listens to the moderator, I will call time out.
28:12Nobody else is seen on screen.
28:14Nobody else is seen.
28:15When nobody listens to the moderator, I have to keep yelling time out.
28:19Now, Pranay, go ahead.
28:20You wanted to make a point.
28:21No, I just wanted to add to this thing that Rajdeep doesn't have to convince Gaurav to watch
28:26Pakistani channel.
28:27He's already monitoring it.
28:28And on his phone also, he monitors it.
28:30Because, you know, as an anchor, as a journalist, he has to keep monitoring the channels.
28:35But, besides that, I think…
28:36No, but tell me, tell me, tell me one thing.
28:38Yeah.
28:39You really think that by blocking half a dozen YouTube channels or however many, terrorism
28:44will stop?
28:45So, you think it should be an anchor.
28:46Look at the pointlessness.
28:47If you want to strike, as you've done with an index value, do something, do something,
28:51do something.
28:52You think it should be an anchor.
28:53The information is…
28:54You need it.
28:55We need information on both sides.
28:56But you control the kind of information you let, you know, your wider audience consume.
29:01The kind of narrative…
29:02You don't have to do it.
29:03It's a narrative word.
29:04It's a narrative word.
29:05It's a narrative word.
29:06It's a narrative word.
29:07It's a narrative word.
29:08It's a narrative word.
29:09It's a narrative word.
29:10That's so 1984.
29:11No, no, no.
29:12There's no narrative word.
29:13Anjali, there's no narrative word that needs to be addressed?
29:15You don't think so?
29:16No, 19…
29:17See, why I said it's 1984 is when you say information needs to be curtailed, you use the word,
29:23firstly, information, not propaganda.
29:25Propaganda?
29:26Yes, you may.
29:27But we are a country that puts a lot of importance onto the freedom of expression.
29:33Not of other people.
29:34I'm not saying Pakistanis have freedom of expression in India.
29:37Indians have.
29:38But my point is, we don't stop information from flowing.
29:41This is not…
29:42This is misinformation and propaganda.
29:44Pakistan uses information as a weapon to breed us.
29:48Just one thing.
29:49Just one thing.
29:50Just one thing.
29:51Just one thing.
29:52Just one thing.
29:53Hold on.
29:54Who do you think is the only power that will ever be able to defeat the Pakistani army from within?
29:59It will be the people of Pakistan.
30:01And if you want that to happen, you need to convince them that we have some sort of a connection with them and there is hope in talking to each other.
30:10That's a good point.
30:11It's a good point.
30:12Kaurav.
30:13Also, Anjali, just adding to that, you know, when they watch our shows, when they watch what's happening in India, they're almost envious that they don't have that.
30:22Yes, they are.
30:23They don't have that.
30:24They're envious of India.
30:26People over there are actually living under…
30:29It is a military state.
30:31No, but good things, Gita.
30:32There is an appreciation on either side.
30:34We also appreciate certain things of Pakistani.
30:36It could be anything.
30:37No, but Gaurav keeps saying that, you know, you should stop this, you don't trust your own people.
30:52No, but is there a blanket ban on every Pakistani handle?
30:55No.
30:56There isn't.
30:57But trust your own citizens, your own people.
30:58Okay, let's talk about…
30:59Only selected one.
31:00Let's talk about one aspect here.
31:01Baba, only selected one.
31:02They know when there's misinformation, they know.
31:03Okay, hold on.
31:04We are well-read, well-educated, civilized countries.
31:06What about what's happening now and the clearance that's been given for the Asia Cup and the Pakistani team coming to India?
31:10Gaurav, is that okay for you?
31:11Can I just quickly just mention that trust your own people.
31:13Of course, trust your own people, but in the fog of war, when they spread misinformation, when they spread disinformation,
31:19that is where you need to control the kind of access that Pakistan…
31:22Then government should control it.
31:23Government should control it.
31:24No, okay.
31:25That's exactly what the government is doing.
31:26My only problem is with lack of consistency.
31:29Okay, but are you okay…
31:30On the Asia Cup.
31:31Okay, I have for very long held that if South Africa could be banned for apartheid,
31:38Pakistan should be banned for terror and it has to be a consistent policy.
31:42I come to this, hold on.
31:43It has to be an India-led ICC effort.
31:46You have to galvanize the world.
31:48And how do you do it?
31:49You lead by example.
31:50You have the money.
31:51You have the power.
31:52You know, we need a Bhamasha in this country.
31:55Remember when Maharana Pratap was fighting the Mughals.
31:57That was the time Maharana Pratap did not have money.
32:00Bhamasha gave everything that he had.
32:02He said, you buy weapons and you fight.
32:04I'll come to you Rajdeep, hold on.
32:06We need a Bhamasha approach.
32:07I'll let you come in, just hold on.
32:08We need that Bhamasha approach in dealing with Pakistan terror for the simple reason
32:13you get Pakistan out of ICC cricket.
32:16It will then send across a message and you use your money power.
32:20You use your power as a big power.
32:22We will not play cricket with Pakistan.
32:24Not that we will back out.
32:25They will not play ICC.
32:27Rajdeep, uninterrupted now.
32:28Rajdeep.
32:29You know, this is the absurdity.
32:31When you link apartheid of South Africa with terror of Pakistan.
32:35Please do it.
32:36You've had ample opportunity.
32:38No, no, no.
32:39I'll tell you why.
32:40No, you must allow me now to complete without interruption.
32:43No, please.
32:44For the last 30, 40 years, we've had enough opportunity.
32:47Right?
32:48You are the superpower of cricket.
32:50You are, ICC is controlled in a way by you.
32:53You are one of the big players even in the FIH, the Federation of International Hockey.
32:58Please go ahead.
32:59I'm not stopping you.
33:00When apartheid, when South Africa was ostracized, there was a collective global action.
33:05Which is exactly what I'm saying.
33:07At the moment, what do you have?
33:09At the moment, I repeated this from last week.
33:13You went to the IMF.
33:14You were unsuccessful.
33:15Pakistan gets a second tranche of load.
33:17ADB, unsuccessful.
33:19Pakistan is a member of the non-permanent 15 at the moment.
33:22They are just the vice chair of the counter-terrorism committee.
33:25They are the chairman of the Taliban sanctions committee.
33:28To compare the Pakistan of today, therefore, to the South Africa of the past.
33:33Where South Africa was ostracized globally.
33:37Globally.
33:38I'm making the point globally.
33:39Please understand the distinction.
33:41You were able to isolate South Africa globally.
33:44That's why South Africa was not allowed to play with any country in the world.
33:48You are not succeeding in isolating Pakistan globally.
33:51You are unable to do so.
33:53And yet, you see, this is the problem where rhetoric outstrips the reality.
33:57Very nice to sit in a Noida studio like Gaurav Savan says.
34:00We must get the ICC.
34:01We must try.
34:02It's not happening.
34:03What happened?
34:04The problem is you lack the courage.
34:05You lack the conviction.
34:06You lack the conviction.
34:07Who is your own country?
34:08You lack the conviction.
34:09Who is your own country?
34:10We have always been so divided.
34:13Ms. Gaurav Savan should call Jai Shah on the program.
34:16That's the reason for it.
34:18This is a civilization that has had too many Mir Jaffars within.
34:22Those Mir Jaffars within do not let that national consensus up.
34:25I am going to now get closing comments from everyone.
34:29I want Gaurav Savan to bring Jai Shah on his program and say,
34:32Jai Shah, why haven't you isolated Pakistan in the ICC?
34:36Please ask him this question.
34:37I want his answer.
34:38I have written about it.
34:39I have written about it.
34:40Gaurav is going to.
34:41That is all that I can do.
34:43Gaurav is doing this.
34:44One second.
34:45Unfortunately, I do not fix cabinet births like the Dalal journalists who are doing.
34:50I can only write and speak about it.
34:52That's exactly what I do.
34:53I am asking you a question.
34:54Why are you getting so under your power?
34:56Why are you unable to do anything?
34:59Time out.
35:00Time out.
35:01Time out.
35:02Time out.
35:03Time out.
35:04I can only write and speak.
35:05Gita, closing comments.
35:07Well, I am just, I will repeat what I said last time around.
35:11The government over here has a right to do what it wants to.
35:14But there should be an order.
35:15There should be clarity in what it wants.
35:18You want a crystal clear policy.
35:19Yes.
35:20And believe in your citizens.
35:21They know right from wrong.
35:23They will also know misinformation and disinformation from what, do they not watch Indian channels
35:28to know exactly what's happening?
35:30Are they going to believe Pakistani channels over Indian channels?
35:33I'm sorry.
35:34Have some faith in your own people.
35:36Freedom of press, freedom of speech, freedom of expression are very important to keep a democracy
35:42going.
35:43Prime Minister Modi made that very clear today in his speech in Ghana.
35:46So, let's just go back to the idea of democratic values.
35:50And from there, look at how we are looking and approaching things, even with the neighbour.
35:55Okay.
35:56I will go to Anjali next.
35:57Gaurav and Rajdeep last because you will not listen to me on time.
35:59Anjali.
36:00No, I have a guest coming.
36:01If I walk out in the middle, it's not because I am walking out for any other reason.
36:04So, see, India currently is not in the position, as Gaurav had mentioned, to completely isolate
36:11Pakistan.
36:12I mean, the chief of air staff or the air chief is right now enjoying parties with US.
36:17So, and clearly they are buying, apparently they are buying some equipment, defence equipment
36:21also.
36:22And we are also buying.
36:23So, both of us are actually buyers of the same country.
36:25So, I don't know who is benefiting here, only US.
36:28But, my point is, currently we need to focus on the fact that if you do not have a dialogue
36:36and you choose right now not to have a formal dialogue, you are not sitting across the table
36:40in terms of two governments or two emissaries, then sorry, you need to have some sort of an
36:45informal connection.
36:46Okay.
36:47Quick, quick.
36:48Pranay, quick.
36:49I think, I agree with Anjali on this count that it's, you know, our effort to isolate
36:55a country may not result in the global isolation of a country.
36:58Yes.
36:59But, every policy cannot be a static policy.
37:02You know, you have to be dynamic about it and the dynamism of the policy depends on.
37:06This relationship has always been accident prone.
37:08And we have to respond accordingly.
37:10The only effort, the only objective is to let Pakistan feel the cost of it.
37:15What they do.
37:16And make them realize that this, this, this is going to happen.
37:19This is going to hurt them.
37:20Okay.
37:21If they continue the policy of terrorism.
37:22Okay.
37:23Rajdeep.
37:24Last time, Rajdeep had the last word.
37:25This time, Gaurav will have the last word.
37:26Rajdeep.
37:27You are being very unfair to me.
37:28You are being very unfair to me.
37:29But, either way, I will say my belief is strengthen the voices of moderation and sanity.
37:37Reject and completely isolate the voices of extremism.
37:42The more you can do that, I think the more you will open some windows of hope.
37:48Otherwise, you will have two countries, both in areas of darkness, both viscerally, increasingly hating each other.
37:56And I am not sure whether hatred is a solution in the times in which we live.
38:00So, my, my final point is, wherever you can find, wherever you can find voices of moderation and sanity being strengthened in Pakistan, please do it.
38:09Wherever you see voices of extremism on the other side of the border spewing hate against India, please call them out, target them, isolate them.
38:20I would, therefore, call for some kind of a two-track policy rather than a policy which is generalizing every Pakistani with a monochromatic color.
38:30That, I find, will only end up strengthening further, worryingly, the voices of extremism in Pakistan.
38:37Okay, don't paint them all with the same brush, Gaurav.
38:40I think Pakistanis are, by and large, 50 saints of Hafiz Saeed.
38:43We've had three former High Commissioners of Pakistan in India who were the toast of Lutyens' kabal, the Khan market kabal in our country.
38:50Three High Commissioners, all three justified terror in Jammu and Kashmir as a weapon to bleed India.
38:57That's one consistent Pakistan policy that they've followed since 1947.
39:01If after this, we as Indians do not wake up and speak in one voice against Pakistan's state-sponsored radical Islamist terror, then we will continue to bleed for centuries to come.
39:11Remember, they have said,
39:13They will eat the meat and add atom bomb and they will continue to bleed India through a thousand cuts because this is their jihad against kafirs.
39:21Now, we need to wake up to the ground reality of Pakistan.
39:25They may, you know, their Oxbridge accents and their college clubs may try to paper it over, but beneath the surface, they want to bleed you.
39:35Just be aware and bleed them harder in terms of finances.
39:40Okay.
39:41In every which way, the harder they bleed, the lesser you bleed.
39:44Okay.
39:45All right.
39:46Thank you all very much for joining us in this edition of Democratic Newsroom.
39:48It did get a little animated, a little noisy and we apologize for that.
39:51You are doing it for TRP.
39:52But it's a very emotional discussion, a very emotional debate.
39:53You are doing it for TRP.
39:54You are doing it for TRP.
39:55I am doing it just to keep my people safe, my country safe.
39:58This is Democratic Newsroom called TRP Newsroom.
40:00This is nothing to do with news without noise.
40:02This is nothing to do with news without noise.
40:03News without…
40:04The Democratic Newsroom is very much news without noise and we push, we aim to do that.
40:10It gets a bit emotional sometimes, so we apologize for that.
40:14But thank you again for joining us.
40:15Noise room.
40:16Call it the noise room.
Recommended
0:15
|
Up next