- yesterday
Catch up on all the latest political news from across Kent with Ollie Leader joined by Cllr John Davis, the conservative opposition leader at Thanet District Council and Cllr Johnathon Hawkes, the Labour group leader at Dartford Borough Council.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to a very warm Kemp Politics show live here on KMTV.
00:29The show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:32I'm Oli Leder.
00:33As the weather has warmed up this week, so has anger within Westminster.
00:38With two of Kent's MPs putting their names to a rebellious amendment
00:42that threatened to scupper the government's welfare legislation.
00:47It's not the only place tensions have flared,
00:50with residents and businesses expressing anger
00:52towards a growing trend of anti-social behaviour on Kent's coast and beyond.
00:58Well, to make sense of it all, I'm joined by councillor John Davis,
01:01the Conservative opposition leader at Thanack District Council,
01:04and councillor Jonathan Hawkes, the Labour group leader at Dartford Borough Council.
01:09But first, one of the biggest areas that's been impacted by anti-social behaviour
01:14has been Home Bay.
01:16In recent weeks, there's been fury about a rising number of catapult attacks,
01:21something we've seen near Dartford too.
01:24So what are residents doing about it?
01:27Well, councillors in the area organised this meeting.
01:30Let's take a look, shall we?
01:31The bedroom is really young.
01:34They've got nowhere to go.
01:36Nothing to do.
01:39They went outside to investigate.
01:41A group of youth kicking in the doors of the toilets in Wibberoo Square.
01:46And who is taking the breath of responsibility for their behaviour?
01:50And how could that be an end?
01:52Tensions at a boiling point on a sweltering June evening,
01:56with hundreds cramming into the King's Hall
02:00to discuss anti-social behaviour, terrorising Herne Bay.
02:05The foreign students that we have coming to visit Herne Bay,
02:10they're verbally attacked, lots and lots of racist remarks,
02:16physically abused.
02:19They've had rocks and stones thrown at them.
02:22The local children are using catapults against them.
02:25And basically, they're just causing an awful lot of trouble.
02:28Local representatives took to the stage with Kent Police
02:32and Canterbury City Council officers on hand
02:37to answer the tough questions.
02:40What are you doing?
02:42Because I don't see people.
02:44We have got extra resources.
02:46The extra police officers they talked about,
02:48so getting us up to about two dozen out of Herne Bay Police Station
02:52and then all the community safety additions as well who are coming to help.
02:56I think now it's about, how do we deploy those people?
02:59But despite the eye rolls and head shaking,
03:02do those living in Herne Bay feel more confident now than they did before?
03:09I've heard an awful lot tonight about programmes, incentives and schemes,
03:13but what do they come to if it doesn't actually get a result at the end of it?
03:17A lot of platitudes, there was a lot of back-slapping,
03:20lots of ideas that all sound good in theory.
03:25But what the residents of Herne Bay actually need is action.
03:30There were quite a few points that came out that I thought were quite good.
03:35Um, you know, it's just about sort of understanding which children are doing it,
03:42why they're doing it.
03:43With more police officers expected to hit the Herne Bay beat next month,
03:50there is hope violence could cool down here,
03:54even as the weather heats up.
03:57Olly Leader in Herne Bay.
03:59Well, I am joined by Jonathan Hawkes and John Davis.
04:05Different ends of the county, both Johns,
04:08but both with a great understanding of anti-social behaviour.
04:11I'm going to go to you first, John,
04:13because obviously we've seen some of these issues down in Broadstairs
04:17and Margate last weekend that we've heard about just there.
04:21We've heard about fighting and drinking on the streets there.
04:25Ramsgate, your end of the woods, largely unaffected.
04:28But what do you think is causing it?
04:30Is it just people coming out in the sunshine,
04:33or does it speak to a wider issue?
04:35I think it's a combination of those, actually, Olly.
04:37Um, it's a combination of youthful exuberance, which always exists.
04:42But there is an anger and a frustration in society at the moment.
04:46And this isn't just about the bigger political thing.
04:48This is about lack of expectations,
04:51frustration with where younger people's lives can go.
04:55Um, and I think we have to understand that.
04:58It in no way justifies or in any way that sort of behaviour.
05:04But as I say, I don't think...
05:06I think it's a very complex situation.
05:08But it's something that really, we really as a society
05:12need to pay attention to.
05:14Because when frustrations are bubbling over to this degree,
05:18um, it's quite a dangerous situation.
05:20Apart from on the day, I just mean with the direction of travel.
05:25Um, and as I said, there's absolutely no justification,
05:29especially for the levels of violence that we saw in, um,
05:32in Broadstairs with, uh, the restaurant in particular,
05:34with windows being thrown and, uh, sorry,
05:37with chairs being thrown through the windows.
05:38Business is really concerned about this that we spoke to.
05:41And, Jonathan, what do you make of that?
05:43We've heard a lot from some political parties across the country
05:46about society fraying at the edges,
05:50social occasion breaking down,
05:52that it's not that this speaks to a wider problem
05:54that we heard, John, sort of alluding to that.
05:57Do you agree with that?
05:58Do you think that...
05:59So that anxious behaviour you've been seeing recently
06:01is due to people kind of losing faith in the social contract?
06:11Well, it's idiotic residents.
06:13And I think it's important that we understand
06:15that this isn't a low-level crime.
06:18It has a huge, significant impact on people's lives,
06:23and it needs to be treated in that way.
06:25And I think, as you saw in your report,
06:27that's how residents do feel.
06:31It really adversely affects their life.
06:33So it really is important
06:35so that we start to take action on it.
06:37You saw in your report there
06:39what we start to see the effect
06:41of the additional funding
06:43that the government is putting into neighbourhood policing.
06:47So we've now, we've seen a doubling of funding
06:50into neighbourhood policing
06:51over the last few years.
06:53That's going to allow more beat officers
06:55in people's neighbourhoods.
06:58Everybody's going to have a named officer
07:01that they will be able to contact.
07:03And I think that is a really important part
07:05of how we tackle antisocial behaviour going forward.
07:11Because I think that's really interesting.
07:12We saw some of the pictures there
07:13from the chaos over the weekend on your screen
07:16as you were speaking.
07:18And it is interesting
07:18because reports of ASB antisocial behaviour,
07:21according to latest statistics,
07:24have dropped since last year.
07:27But clearly people don't feel like that.
07:29I actually spoke to the Kent Police and Crime Commissioner
07:33about this.
07:34And he said it is a genuine concern
07:37that people may not feel
07:38like the statistics may suggest
07:41that things are getting better.
07:43how can we restore confidence
07:45in places like Thanet,
07:48like Dartford,
07:49like Herne Bay?
07:51Excuse me.
07:51An excellent question, Olly.
07:54I'm glad you brought up Matthew Scott
07:56because, as John said,
07:58they're moving over
07:59to a model of named officers
08:01in defined wards and areas and things,
08:04which was one of Matthew Scott's policies
08:08that he brought back in
08:10for this because he's been elected
08:11over several terms.
08:13We've had the benefit of that
08:15for a year or two now
08:17and where proper beat officers,
08:21warranted officers,
08:22as opposed to relying
08:23on the PCSO model only,
08:26has had an impact.
08:28However, given this unrest
08:30and this frustration,
08:31but it isn't, as I say,
08:32it's not just this political frustration
08:35that's being fed
08:36by other parties and things.
08:37You know, young people today
08:39look at things
08:41and they need to see
08:44a path through life
08:45and at the moment
08:46they don't see a way
08:47of getting a roof over their head
08:49within their working lifetime.
08:52So I think there's a very complex
08:54set of circumstances
08:55and I'm saying,
08:56I mean, no way justify the behaviour,
08:58but I think rather than
08:59trying to put a sticking,
09:00a plaster over the symptom,
09:04what we need to do
09:05is perhaps look at
09:06what is the cause
09:07and how we can address that.
09:08The other thing is,
09:10and again,
09:10I mean this in no derogatory point
09:14to anybody,
09:15but we're regularly told
09:16that Kemp Police have more officers
09:18than at any point in their history
09:20and yet when we have these flare-ups,
09:22sometimes they don't seem
09:24to be available.
09:25Now, as I say,
09:26I'm sure there are fairly good reasons,
09:28but if we've got more officers
09:29at any time in our history,
09:31surely we should be seeing more of them.
09:34Look, I'm sure Kemp Police would say
09:35if they were here
09:36that they do attend
09:37and treat all of these reports seriously,
09:40but Jonathan,
09:40I think that's a really interesting point
09:41that John made there.
09:43We know in Dartford
09:44there's a rise of HMOs.
09:45We also know that
09:45in some estates recently
09:46we've seen a rise
09:48in the space of catapult attacks,
09:49similar to what's been happening
09:51in Hearn Bay.
09:53How do you think
09:54the root causes
09:55are translating
09:57to these violent actions
09:59somewhere like Dartford,
10:01where we are seeing
10:02issues around housing,
10:03people feeling worse off.
10:06What would you say,
10:07how's that translating
10:08in your own ward
10:10and in your local authority?
10:12Well, we've absolutely
10:14seen cuts in things
10:16like youth services
10:17at Kencata Council
10:19over the last few years.
10:20We've absolutely seen it difficult
10:22for people to get on
10:24the housing ladder
10:25and are struggling
10:26with cost of living,
10:27but none of that excuses
10:29the sort of behaviour
10:31that we saw, for example,
10:32in catapult attacks.
10:33These are crimes
10:34and they need to be treated
10:36as crimes.
10:37And I think just to pick up
10:38something that John said,
10:39Kent Police had their numbers cut
10:42by the last Conservative government.
10:44When Labour came into power,
10:45we inherited a situation
10:47where crime was up,
10:49antisocial behaviour was up,
10:5190% of crimes
10:52were going unsolved.
10:53Now it is the investment
10:54that we're putting in now
10:56that is enabling us
10:57to get more police on the beat.
10:59But it is absolutely the case
11:01that that is going to take time
11:03to flow through.
11:04And of course,
11:05it is going to take time
11:06to rebuild people's trust
11:08in what has been
11:09a broken police
11:10and justice system.
11:11But we're taking the steps
11:12that is enabling us
11:14to get there
11:15and putting more
11:16neighbourhood police
11:17on the beat,
11:17having a named officer
11:18in every community in Kent.
11:21Every community in Kent
11:22will have a named officer
11:23that they can contact.
11:24That's going to go a long way,
11:26I think,
11:26to reassuring people.
11:28And as you say,
11:28where these incidents occur,
11:30there are underlying reasons
11:32for them in a lot of cases,
11:33but they are also crimes
11:35and they need to be treated as such.
11:37John, I'd like to bring you
11:38back in here.
11:39We do have a break coming up.
11:40So I think, Jonathan,
11:41you may have the last word there,
11:42but a bit of consensus,
11:44I think,
11:44on one of the biggest issues
11:45facing Kent at the moment.
11:47We'll be back after the break
11:48with a bit about
11:49all the big welfare reforms.
11:51See you soon.
14:51Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show,
15:10live here on KMTV,
15:12the show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
15:14Still joining me is Councillor John Davis,
15:17the Conservative Opposition Leader
15:19at Thanet District Council,
15:21and Councillor Jonathan Hawkes,
15:22the Labour Group Leader
15:23at Dartford Borough Council.
15:25But now it's time to discuss
15:26the biggest story of the week.
15:28And the government today announced
15:30that they've watered down
15:31their landmark welfare reform bill
15:33after facing a rebellion
15:34of more than 100 Labour MPs,
15:37unhappy about PIP payments,
15:40with polluting costs on our benefits system.
15:42Who was in the right?
15:44And well, Jonathan, I think,
15:46given that you are the Labour representative
15:49on the programme,
15:49I have to ask,
15:50is this not just another embarrassing moment
15:53for the government?
15:54Because this watering down the bill
15:57means they've essentially lost
15:59£3 billion of the savings
16:01they were estimated to make.
16:03And it appears that everyone's
16:05kind of lost confidence in them
16:07on the backbenchers.
16:08Well, look, there's agreement
16:10across all Labour MPs and councillors
16:14that we need to reform the welfare system.
16:18The system that we inherited
16:20from the Conservatives
16:21is completely broken.
16:23It's failing sick and disabled people.
16:25It's denying them the genuine support
16:28they need to get into work.
16:29So the case for reform is very clear.
16:33The question is how best to do that.
16:36And that's the debate
16:37that we've been having this week.
16:40And I think it's a good thing
16:41that Labour MPs have been expressing
16:43their views and contributing their ideas.
16:46And I also think it's a good thing
16:48the government is listening.
16:50So we've had that debate.
16:52We've made some changes.
16:53I think we've now got a package
16:55that is able to provide dignity
16:58for those who are unable to work.
17:00It supports those who can work
17:02and want to work.
17:04And it will also reduce the anxiety
17:06for anyone who is currently in the system.
17:08So we can now move forwards together
17:10when that legislation comes to Parliament next week.
17:13Let's split it back round.
17:15Do you not think it's a bad thing
17:16that the government got it wrong,
17:19seemingly, the first time round?
17:20Because if they've U-turned,
17:22it implies they didn't get it right
17:24the first time.
17:25And we've seen a similar thing happen
17:27with winter fuel payments.
17:29And all of this is going to have
17:31a huge cost on taxpayers.
17:33So our concerns that,
17:34due to Rachel Rees' borrowing rules,
17:36there may be tax writers to pay for it
17:39coming up in the year.
17:40Didn't the government just get this wrong
17:41the first time round?
17:42Why can't they just admit it?
17:45Well, look, Ollie,
17:45we've been having a debate.
17:46And this is how the parliamentary process works.
17:49So a bill is presented to Parliament.
17:52There is a debate about it.
17:53People express views.
17:55There are sometimes amendments.
17:57And that is essentially the process
17:59that we've been going through.
18:00So I don't think it's a bad thing
18:03that we've had an opportunity
18:04to have a debate
18:06and that we've been able to get to a point
18:08where now we've got a unified position
18:10that we're able to go forward
18:11and say we've got a package now
18:13that is going to provide dignity
18:15for people unable to work
18:16and support those who work
18:18and want to work.
18:19And that is what we all want to see.
18:21Because the thing that is not
18:22in dispute here, Ollie,
18:24is that we need to reform
18:26the welfare system.
18:27Everybody agrees on that.
18:29The government certainly
18:30hasn't got that wrong.
18:31That's what we were elected to do
18:33when we won the election last year.
18:35The question is how best to do that.
18:38And that's a debate
18:38we've been having this week.
18:40John, your party
18:41perhaps doesn't have the best record
18:43when it comes to welfare.
18:45And the system doesn't get
18:46to where it is right now overnight.
18:49And your party was in power
18:51for more than a decade.
18:54Surely there's going to be
18:55some responsibility here
18:56and surely Kenny Bapenot
18:57was in the wrong
18:58for playing political football
18:59earlier this week
19:00by saying I only support the bill
19:01by tying the government's hands
19:03on taxation
19:04and doing this
19:05and doing that.
19:06Surely
19:07if your party was serious
19:09about welfare reform
19:10they'd be backing the government
19:11all the way on this.
19:13Well, I think it's fair to say
19:14that we did offer
19:15to back the government.
19:16I'm not sure...
19:17I mean, I understand
19:18your comment about political football
19:20because, you know,
19:21that goes on all the time.
19:24However,
19:25the pledges
19:26that we were looking for
19:27as a party
19:28and Kemi mentioned
19:29I don't think are unfair
19:30which was to reduce
19:31the welfare bill
19:32which again
19:33we have consensus on
19:34that it needs to be done.
19:36Or certainly
19:37the funding has to come
19:38from somewhere
19:39so let's look at it
19:40from both those ways.
19:41But we need to reduce
19:42the welfare bill
19:44we need to get
19:46more people into work
19:47that can
19:48but we needed
19:49a pledge on taxation
19:50because at the end of the day
19:52rightly or wrongly
19:53we are a party
19:54that promotes low taxation.
19:57Despite the promises
19:59of the Chancellor
19:59and Cabinet members
20:01we face
20:02further tax rises
20:04in the autumn
20:04and it's not unfair
20:06to forecast that
20:08because the money
20:08has to come from somewhere.
20:11You know
20:11there's a £3 billion deficit
20:13appeared
20:13because of this change
20:15where's the plan for it?
20:18I think
20:18what I have to say is
20:20whatever was inherited
20:21Labour have had
20:23all those years
20:24if they really wanted
20:26to put together
20:27an alternative vision
20:28and really believe this
20:30they've had years
20:31to put together a plan
20:32that was effective
20:33and that they could stick to
20:34as a unit
20:36rather than
20:37a hastily thrown together
20:39crowd-pleasing policy
20:42let's say
20:43or an attempt
20:43to please the crowd
20:44but again
20:45flip-flop flip-flop
20:47like with the winter fuel payments
20:48let's have some
20:50let's have some government
20:51that thinks things through
20:52that develops programs properly
20:55and then can deliver them
20:57in the format
20:58they're described in
20:59instead of this constant
21:00slipping off
21:01of the stepping stones
21:02because we're trying
21:02to run across a river
21:03without looking
21:04where we're going.
21:05Surely good government
21:06listens to
21:07ideas from the back benches
21:09it takes criticism
21:09I think that's great
21:10I think that's great
21:11Ollie
21:11because that's democracy
21:13and it is important
21:14that back benches
21:15are listened to
21:16and aren't just
21:18you know
21:18lined up and whipped
21:19along with
21:20executive decisions
21:21because without
21:22with good debate
21:23comes more
21:24better decisions
21:26and you know
21:27the more robust
21:28that debate
21:29then good
21:30but it has to be said
21:32that
21:33as I say
21:33it's crowd pleasing
21:36policies
21:37that haven't been
21:37thought through
21:38costed and developed
21:39policies
21:40properly
21:41so consequently
21:42we then end up
21:43where we are
21:43which is why
21:44Kemi for instance
21:45is taking her time
21:47to develop policies
21:48that we actually
21:49can then offer
21:49to the electorate
21:51at the next election
21:52we haven't heard
21:52what Kemi is offering yet
21:53but Jonathan
21:54I want to bring you in here
21:54because
21:55one of the things
21:56that may fill people
21:58with disabilities in Kent
21:59with a bit of hope
22:00is that existing claims
22:01of personal independence payments
22:03will not lose out
22:04under these welfare reforms
22:06and that
22:07disabled people
22:08will have
22:08some say
22:09in the consultation process
22:10going forward
22:10about what PIP looks like
22:12but there is no protections
22:13for people that
22:14will be claiming PIP
22:15in the future
22:16that anyone
22:17in this room
22:18could end up
22:19needing to claim PIP
22:20at some point
22:21in the next few years
22:22and there will be
22:23no way of knowing
22:25how hard it will be
22:26to claim it
22:27compared to how it is today
22:29what do you make of that?
22:30do you think
22:31that this is a government
22:32protecting people
22:33in the present
22:34but undermining
22:36those in the future?
22:38I think I want to
22:39remind John
22:40and all of the viewers
22:42exactly what it was
22:44that we inherited
22:45from the Conservatives
22:46so
22:46one in ten
22:48working age people
22:49in this country
22:50are out of work
22:51that is the highest
22:52in Western Europe
22:53nearly three million people
22:55are locked out
22:56of the workforce
22:57for health reasons
22:58that is a completely
22:59unacceptable situation
23:01for this country
23:02to be in
23:03and I'm not going
23:03to take any lectures
23:04from Kemi Badenoch
23:05or John
23:06or any other Conservative
23:07about the situation
23:09that we have inherited
23:10and we are now
23:11trying to fix
23:12we have to
23:13we absolutely have to
23:14reform the welfare system
23:16and put it on
23:17a sustainable footing
23:18because if we do not
23:19then the safety net
23:21that we need to be there
23:22for the most vulnerable
23:23that you talk about there
23:24Oli
23:25will not be there
23:26because it will become
23:27unaffordable
23:28so the reforms
23:30that we've made today
23:31and you're quite right
23:33to point out
23:33that we've made the change
23:35so that anybody
23:35who is currently
23:36in receipt of PIP
23:38their benefits
23:39will be protected
23:40but we have to make
23:42these reforms
23:42because of the
23:43absolute mess
23:44that we have inherited
23:46from the Conservative
23:47government
23:47it is a record
23:48of shame
23:49and we are now
23:51going to do the work
23:52the hard work
23:53and that's why
23:54this has been
23:54a difficult debate
23:55Oli
23:55it's hard
23:56this stuff is hard
23:57but we are doing
23:58the work
23:59to fix it
23:59so we can protect
24:00the most vulnerable
24:01people both now
24:02and in the future
24:03but if it's about
24:05saving money
24:06and protecting
24:06the welfare states
24:07the changes
24:09according to the
24:09Resolution Foundation
24:10will likely cost
24:11around £3 billion
24:13that's knocked off
24:15the savings
24:15that would have been made
24:16is this not
24:17that's the worst
24:18of both worlds
24:18as people at
24:19Kenneth Bednock
24:20have been alluding to
24:21it's not
24:23because
24:24we do have to
24:25save money
24:26in the short term
24:27the welfare system
24:28costs far too much
24:29money
24:30and it is unsustainable
24:31so we do need
24:32to save money
24:32but what we are
24:33actually
24:34what we're doing here
24:35is getting people
24:36back into work
24:37and getting people
24:37back into work
24:38will grow the economy
24:39so that's why
24:40it's important
24:41it's not simply
24:42a money saving
24:43exercise
24:44it is about
24:45growing the economy
24:46getting more people
24:47back into work
24:48making sure we
24:49remove the barriers
24:51for people who
24:52currently cannot
24:53find a way into work
24:55but want to
24:56removing those barriers
24:58so they can get into work
24:59so we can protect
25:00the welfare system
25:01for people who
25:02unfortunately cannot work
25:04and will not ever
25:04be able to work
25:05to make sure that
25:06there is a safety net
25:08there for them
25:08so that's what we're doing
25:10that's what we've
25:11announced today
25:11bring John in here
25:13because
25:13John looks quite
25:15deep in thought
25:16about what you were
25:18just saying there
25:18is there any point
25:19of agreement at all
25:20the need to
25:22the need to refine
25:23the welfare system
25:25I think we're
25:25we're now getting
25:27into these cost discussions
25:28and we're conflating
25:29also back to work
25:30with PIP
25:31PIP is not means tested
25:33it's designed
25:34to support people
25:35now whilst yes
25:35there are people
25:36there's many people
25:37that are able
25:38to function at work
25:39because the PIP
25:40even on the lower levels
25:42that they get
25:43gives them the assistance
25:44that they need
25:45with their physical
25:46difficulties
25:46particularly
25:48when people
25:49are on the lower level
25:50but PIP
25:53is based on need
25:55we need to address
25:57the benefits
25:59that are paid
26:00while people
26:01are out of work
26:01you can be in work
26:02out of work
26:03PIP is non-discretion
26:04is non-discriminatory
26:07whereas other benefits
26:09are where perhaps
26:10the streamlining
26:12can be made
26:12without impacting
26:14those that need it most
26:15but I do welcome
26:17the fact that
26:17there have been
26:19rebellion for once
26:20rather than groupthink
26:21and that we at least
26:23have got the people
26:25protected
26:26in the current status
26:27because the stress
26:29of being able
26:29of losing money
26:31when there's nothing
26:32you can do about it
26:33that just adds
26:34to the burden
26:36on the medical
26:37on the health system
26:38it's a really difficult
26:39discussion
26:39it's one that's worth
26:40having a programme
26:41like this
26:41that's all we have
26:42time for
26:43thank you both
26:44for joining me
26:45on this Friday afternoon
26:46we'll see you next week
26:47we'll see you next week
26:50We'll see you next time.
Recommended
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